Wet food: Bad for teeth?
Dale McD
morning and a spoonful at night...with dried food the rest of the day
and night) is bad for a cat's teeth and breath.
Any ideas?
Thx,
D.
Frank H Davis Esq.
Somebody is telling you lies. In fact the reverse is true, tinned food
is by far the better diet for cats and you should limit their dry food
intake to a couple of meals a week.
--
Frank.
lisatkiom
Dale McD <da...@rtd.com> wrote:
> I've heard a rumour that even a little wet food daily (a spoonful in
the
> morning and a spoonful at night...with dried food the rest of the day
> and night) is bad for a cat's teeth and breath.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thx,
> D.
>
tartar off their teeth as they chew it.
Lisa
--
Playing: Final Fantasy VIII
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
meerkat
I suggest giving your cat both wet and dry food. I only use Iams, Eukanuba
or Science Diet for my cat. Dry food is good for the teeth because the
abrasiveness helps remove tartar and plaque from the teeth. It contains
vitamins and minerals to keep the teeth and bones strong and healthy. Wet
food doesn't hurt the teeth, but the vitamins and minerals will help keep
the teeth strong and healthy.
My veterinarian suggested that I always keep a dish of dry food available
for my cat. During the day, she goes over and munches a little here and
there. He suggested I also feed her 2 oz. of wet food twice a day so she
maintains healthy fluid levels. Seems to work pretty good. So to answer your
question, both types of food are good when used in moderation. But I always
ask my vet. when I am unsure of anything....
"Frank H Davis Esq." <Fr...@evenloade.totalserve.net> wrote in message
news:3a228d9a...@news.hot-toast.com...
> On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:03:54 -0700, Dale McD <da...@rtd.com> wrote:
>
> >I've heard a rumour that even a little wet food daily (a spoonful in the
> >morning and a spoonful at night...with dried food the rest of the day
> >and night) is bad for a cat's teeth and breath.
> >
> >Any ideas?
> >
> >Thx,
> >D.
>
Victor M. Martinez
>Somebody is telling you lies. In fact the reverse is true, tinned food
>is by far the better diet for cats and you should limit their dry food
>intake to a couple of meals a week.
Now you're the one telling lies. Cats can have a very good diet if fed dry
food exclusively (provided the dry food is good, i.e. premium). There is
no reason whatsoever to say that one food is better than the other when they
provide the same nutrients and are made from the same ingredients.
Wet food is believed by some to contribute to tooth decay more than dry food,
but cats are bad chewers, so the cleaning they get from kibble is minimal.
Wet food does cause, in my experience, smellier poop and breath.
--
Victor M. Martinez, Jr. | The University of Texas at Austin
mar...@che.utexas.edu | Department of Chemical Engineering
http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv | Austin, TX 78712
If we knew what we were doing it would not be called research, would it?
the3blrs
> On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:03:54 -0700, Dale McD <da...@rtd.com> wrote:
>
> >I've heard a rumour that even a little wet food daily (a spoonful in the
> >morning and a spoonful at night...with dried food the rest of the day
> >and night) is bad for a cat's teeth and breath.
> >
> >Any ideas?
> >
> >Thx,
> >D.
>
> Somebody is telling you lies. In fact the reverse is true, tinned food
> is by far the better diet for cats and you should limit their dry food
> intake to a couple of meals a week.
My two cats (ages 6 and 3) have never had wet food--my vet says that's
good. The only time they've seen a vet is for annual checkup.
--
*******************************
F I R E, the CD by Johnny J Blair
Available NOW! Info & mp3s at
http://home.earthlink.net/~the3blrs/fireCD.html
CK
>
> My two cats (ages 6 and 3) have never had wet food--my vet says that's
> good. The only time they've seen a vet is for annual checkup.
>
have it standing there for him if he would happen to want some (and
change it every now and then as the old stuff gets dusty...). Lately
he's started showing pickiness about his wet food too - he's 6 months
old now. Just have to try different kinds what His Royal Furryness would
prefer to eat...
Christine
Bob Brenchley.
Martinez) wrote:
>Frank H Davis Esq. <Fr...@evenloade.totalserve.net> wrote:
>>Somebody is telling you lies. In fact the reverse is true, tinned food
>>is by far the better diet for cats and you should limit their dry food
>>intake to a couple of meals a week.
>
>Now you're the one telling lies. Cats can have a very good diet if fed dry
>food exclusively (provided the dry food is good, i.e. premium). There is
>no reason whatsoever to say that one food is better than the other when they
>provide the same nutrients and are made from the same ingredients.
>Wet food is believed by some to contribute to tooth decay more than dry food,
>but cats are bad chewers, so the cleaning they get from kibble is minimal.
>Wet food does cause, in my experience, smellier poop and breath.
>
A dry food diet is very bad for a cat. It is unnatural in that it is
very high in vegetable material which cats do not digest. It also is a
leading cause of urinary tract problems, dehydration and stomach
blockages.
Keep dry below 30% in the diet and do NOT feed to kittens under six
months.
Feed your cat tinned. It is FAR better for them.
--
Bob.
Looking forward to the start of the new millennium on January 1st
2001.
Bob Brenchley.
>Both of these statements are false, actually...
>I suggest giving your cat both wet and dry food. I only use Iams, Eukanuba
>or Science Diet for my cat. Dry food is good for the teeth because the
>abrasiveness helps remove tartar and plaque from the teeth.
There is VERY little evidence for that. In most cases a cat does not
even crunch its food, and certainly cannot chew its food which is what
would be needed for the food to clean its teeth.
>It contains
>vitamins and minerals to keep the teeth and bones strong and healthy. Wet
>food doesn't hurt the teeth, but the vitamins and minerals will help keep
>the teeth strong and healthy.
>My veterinarian suggested that I always keep a dish of dry food available
>for my cat.
Change your vet. That is BAD advice.
>During the day, she goes over and munches a little here and
>there. He suggested I also feed her 2 oz. of wet food twice a day so she
>maintains healthy fluid levels. Seems to work pretty good. So to answer your
>question, both types of food are good when used in moderation. But I always
>ask my vet. when I am unsure of anything....
>
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>In article <3a228d9a...@news.hot-toast.com>,
>Fr...@evenloade.totalserve.net (Frank H Davis Esq.) wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:03:54 -0700, Dale McD <da...@rtd.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I've heard a rumour that even a little wet food daily (a spoonful in the
>> >morning and a spoonful at night...with dried food the rest of the day
>> >and night) is bad for a cat's teeth and breath.
>> >
>> >Any ideas?
>> >
>> >Thx,
>> >D.
>>
>> Somebody is telling you lies. In fact the reverse is true, tinned food
>> is by far the better diet for cats and you should limit their dry food
>> intake to a couple of meals a week.
>
>My two cats (ages 6 and 3) have never had wet food--my vet says that's
>good. The only time they've seen a vet is for annual checkup.
Not a very good vet then is he.
Find yourself one that understand cat nutrition.
--
Bob.
Cats know what we feel. They don't always care, but they know.
meerkat
> even crunch its food, and certainly cannot chew its food which is what
> would be needed for the food to clean its teeth.
That's funny, it seems that the plaque on my cat's teeth has been
DRASTICALLY reduced since feeding her IAMS dry food. AND, She CHEWS the food
with her TEETH. I actually hear the food grinding between her teeth as she
chews....hmmmmm. maybe I have an extraordinary cat!
> >It contains
> >vitamins and minerals to keep the teeth and bones strong and healthy. Wet
> >food doesn't hurt the teeth, but the vitamins and minerals will help keep
> >the teeth strong and healthy.
> >My veterinarian suggested that I always keep a dish of dry food available
> >for my cat.
> Change your vet. That is BAD advice.
Why is it BAD advice? Please explain in detail.
My cat is in excellent health, she is at a healthy weight, and her teeth are
much cleaner and healthier than before! So why should I change vets????
kchu...@earthlink.net
full mouth extraction. Very little about the cause of periodontis,
stomatitus and other mouth problems is known. I had my cats gums
lasered and 6months later you would never have known it. We have
controlled it with Pred and Metro in low doses but there seems to be a
growing consensus among vets that the only way to control it is
removing all teeth behind the canines. There is a school of thought
that the cats are hypersensitive to the bacteria in the plaque or IOW,
allergic to it. This is in cats that do not have any other immune
diseases. It is probably genetic, very often and has little to do with
diet. Just as in humans you may know two siblings who one brushes and
flosses like a fanatic and another does nothing special. The fanatic
still gets cavities and the other has none. What can explain such
things? Just a thought.
In article <8vu3up$248$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
lisatkiom <lisa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <3A2285EA...@rtd.com>,
> Dale McD <da...@rtd.com> wrote:
> > I've heard a rumour that even a little wet food daily (a spoonful in
> the
> > morning and a spoonful at night...with dried food the rest of the
day
> > and night) is bad for a cat's teeth and breath.
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > Thx,
> > D.
> >
Jennifer
>> There is VERY little evidence for that. In most cases a cat does not
>> even crunch its food, and certainly cannot chew its food which is what
>> would be needed for the food to clean its teeth.
>
>That's funny, it seems that the plaque on my cat's teeth has been
>DRASTICALLY reduced since feeding her IAMS dry food. AND, She CHEWS the food
>with her TEETH. I actually hear the food grinding between her teeth as she
>chews....hmmmmm. maybe I have an extraordinary cat!
>
Shouldn't that be 'HEAR' the food GRINDING between her TEETH as she
CHEWS...
Jen
- but what would I know
Vicki Cleaver
B...@Format.Publications.ukf.net (Bob Brenchley.) purred the following:
>On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:48:31 -0500, "meerkat" <m...@mymail.com> wrote:
>
>>Both of these statements are false, actually...
>>I suggest giving your cat both wet and dry food. I only use Iams,
>>Eukanuba or Science Diet for my cat. Dry food is good for the teeth
>>because the abrasiveness helps remove tartar and plaque from the teeth.
>
>There is VERY little evidence for that. In most cases a cat does not
>even crunch its food, and certainly cannot chew its food which is what
>would be needed for the food to clean its teeth.
I would have to agree there Bob. When my cats barf up (too regularly :) if
they barf up any of the dry food I leave out for them (only a small part of
their diet) the pieces are slightly swollen but still whole!
--
Purrs
Vicki Cleaver /\/\ /\/\ /\/\ /\/\
kitt...@dingoblue.net.au ( oo ) ( oo ) ( oo ) ( oo )
http://www.users.bigpond.com/kittecat =^^= =^^= =^^= =^^=
Lifetime member of Ailurophiles Anonymous Augie Siani Issy Lottie
Dedicated to my Lexy, Toby, Chia, Meghie and Candi the Angel kitties..
Kelly
"Kelly" <kros...@uoguelph.ca> wrote in message
news:8vusl4$30o$1...@testinfo.cs.uoguelph.ca...
>
> "Vicki Cleaver" <kittecat=NOS...@dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
> news:8FFA52886vicki...@203.2.75.243...
> > Whilst licking their paws in alt.cats on 28 Nov 2000,
> > B...@Format.Publications.ukf.net (Bob Brenchley.) purred the following:
> >
> > >On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:48:31 -0500, "meerkat" <m...@mymail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >>Both of these statements are false, actually...
> > >>I suggest giving your cat both wet and dry food. I only use Iams,
> > >>Eukanuba or Science Diet for my cat. Dry food is good for the teeth
> > >>because the abrasiveness helps remove tartar and plaque from the
teeth.
> > >
> > >There is VERY little evidence for that. In most cases a cat does not
> > >even crunch its food, and certainly cannot chew its food which is what
> > >would be needed for the food to clean its teeth.
> >
> > I would have to agree there Bob. When my cats barf up (too regularly :)
> if
> > they barf up any of the dry food I leave out for them (only a small part
> of
> > their diet) the pieces are slightly swollen but still whole!
> >
>
>
> Kelly
>
>
Kelly
Vicki Cleaver
>hahhahahaahaha.. sorry I read that wrong. disregard. LOL
LOL ... when I read your first post I thought you were kidding but ther was
no :) ... glad you understood :)
As for cats eating their own puke I have to agree ... that *is* disgusting!
That's what dogs are for :)
Sherry Riddles
>>> even crunch its food, and certainly cannot chew its food which is what
>>> would be needed for the food to clean its teeth.
>>
>>DRASTICALLY reduced since feeding her IAMS dry food. AND, She CHEWS the food
>>with her TEETH. I actually hear the food grinding between her teeth as she
>>chews....hmmmmm. maybe I have an extraordinary cat!
>>
>Shouldn't that be 'HEAR' the food GRINDING between her TEETH as she
>CHEWS...
>
>Jen
>- but what would I know
>
crunching going on -- especially with the hard treats they get every now and
then. Sheba, my especially piggish eater, kind of wolfs hers down (probably
whole) but the others don't.
Sherry
Jen McNeil
perfectly well on just dry food? My cat hates wet food and won't touch it.
Should I starve her or force her to eat it?
"Bob Brenchley." <B...@Format.Publications.ukf.net> wrote in message
news:ipc52t0vu349nt8s2...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:14:34 GMT, the3blrs <the3...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <3a228d9a...@news.hot-toast.com>,
> >Fr...@evenloade.totalserve.net (Frank H Davis Esq.) wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:03:54 -0700, Dale McD <da...@rtd.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I've heard a rumour that even a little wet food daily (a spoonful in
the
> >> >morning and a spoonful at night...with dried food the rest of the day
> >> >and night) is bad for a cat's teeth and breath.
> >> >
> >> >Any ideas?
> >> >
> >> >Thx,
> >> >D.
> >>
Judy
"Vicki Cleaver" <kittecat=NOS...@dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
news:8FFA52886vicki...@203.2.75.243...
>
> >On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:48:31 -0500, "meerkat" <m...@mymail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Both of these statements are false, actually...
> >>I suggest giving your cat both wet and dry food. I only use Iams,
> >>Eukanuba or Science Diet for my cat. Dry food is good for the teeth
> >>because the abrasiveness helps remove tartar and plaque from the teeth.
> >
> >even crunch its food, and certainly cannot chew its food which is what
> >would be needed for the food to clean its teeth.
>
if
> they barf up any of the dry food I leave out for them (only a small part
of
> their diet) the pieces are slightly swollen but still whole!
>
> Purrs
>
> Vicki Cleaver /\/\ /\/\ /\/\ /\/\
I agree as well. Until last January when my cat decided that dry food made
her gag and insisted on a mostly wet diet - she barfed regularly and like
your the barf was slightly swollen but still whole dry. Since she switched
over to an 80% wet diet she hasn't barfed once. Hasn't even coughed up a
furball! She sheds less and the seemingly endless grooming has stopped.
Judy
Judy
> news:8FFA52886vicki...@203.2.75.243...
> > Whilst licking their paws in alt.cats on 28 Nov 2000,
> > B...@Format.Publications.ukf.net (Bob Brenchley.) purred the following:
> >
> > >On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:48:31 -0500, "meerkat" <m...@mymail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >>Both of these statements are false, actually...
> > >>I suggest giving your cat both wet and dry food. I only use Iams,
> > >>Eukanuba or Science Diet for my cat. Dry food is good for the teeth
> > >>because the abrasiveness helps remove tartar and plaque from the
teeth.
> > >
> > >There is VERY little evidence for that. In most cases a cat does not
> > >even crunch its food, and certainly cannot chew its food which is what
> > >would be needed for the food to clean its teeth.
> >
> > I would have to agree there Bob. When my cats barf up (too regularly :)
> if
> > they barf up any of the dry food I leave out for them (only a small part
> of
> > their diet) the pieces are slightly swollen but still whole!
> >
>
I think you read wrong Kelly.
What Vicki said is that any dried food she leaves out (only a small portion)
they barf up. She's not leaving a small portion of barf around for them to
eat.
Judy
J + T
> > I would have to agree there Bob. When my cats barf up (too regularly :)
> if
> > they barf up any of the dry food I leave out for them (only a small part
> of
> > their diet) the pieces are slightly swollen but still whole!
> >
>
> That's disgusting. I can't believe you let your cats eat their own puke.
>
Where the heck did she say that???
Tammy
meerkat
> CHEWS...
Was that supposed to be funny?
>
> Jen
> - but what would I know
Not much obviously.
>
High
barf.
Vicki Cleaver <kittecat=NOS...@dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
news:8FFA65F37vicki...@203.2.75.243...
kchu...@earthlink.net
"D_S." <deeus_re...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> named him "Moloko". Moloko actually.. is a real strange eater..
> he eats dried food.. but loves Whiskas Cat Milk.
What is Whiskas Cat Milk? I have never heard of it.
Karen
meerkat
cat food.
It comes in square cardboard boxes (like ssips) that you can get in the pet
food aisle. It isn't refrigerated in the store. I've never used it because
milk gives my cat diarrhea.
<kchu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:900h17$q68$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Jennifer
Well I know if it was supposed to be funny or not, so that puts me one
up on you.
Jen
bonbon
Cleaver) wrote:
>Whilst licking their paws in alt.cats on 28 Nov 2000,
>kros...@uoguelph.ca (Kelly) purred the following:
>
>>hahhahahaahaha.. sorry I read that wrong. disregard. LOL
>
>LOL ... when I read your first post I thought you were kidding but ther was
>no :) ... glad you understood :)
>
>
>As for cats eating their own puke I have to agree ... that *is* disgusting!
>That's what dogs are for :)
LOL.....I was wondering what they were for.
-bonbon
CK
-snip-
> I think cats have got personal tastes you know?
> and if they are healthy and with no signs of getting sick
> one should stick to the diet they choose for themselves
> Our vet told us that Moloko should have the milk only once a day
> and only a little bit.. and keep a lot of fresh water with the premium kitty
> food
> we have for him.
> He seems fine.. and has got a LOT of energy
> so what's wrong?
> its it all relative anyways?
>
> - D
I agree. Why shouldn't cats have individual tastes when everyone else
does?? Some like fish, some like meat, some like kibble, some canned
food. Our kitty doesn't touch dry food at all, and we have it standing
there for him too, just in case... And he's getting picky with age too,
now he's 6 months and eats just a few kinds of canned food. Earlier he
ate whatever we gave him and with great appetite too, except for the dry
stuff - nothing.
Christine
Bob Brenchley.
>> There is VERY little evidence for that. In most cases a cat does not
>> even crunch its food, and certainly cannot chew its food which is what
>> would be needed for the food to clean its teeth.
>
>That's funny, it seems that the plaque on my cat's teeth has been
>DRASTICALLY reduced since feeding her IAMS dry food. AND, She CHEWS the food
>with her TEETH. I actually hear the food grinding between her teeth as she
>chews....hmmmmm. maybe I have an extraordinary cat!
>
Cats cannot chew, they do not have the jaw for it. Some cats crunch
some of the food, but most bits are swallowed whole.
>
>> >It contains
>> >vitamins and minerals to keep the teeth and bones strong and healthy. Wet
>> >food doesn't hurt the teeth, but the vitamins and minerals will help keep
>> >the teeth strong and healthy.
>> >My veterinarian suggested that I always keep a dish of dry food available
>> >for my cat.
>
>> Change your vet. That is BAD advice.
>
>Why is it BAD advice? Please explain in detail.
1) It contains to much vegetable matter - bad for cats.
2) It upsets that cats natural method of absorbing water - bad for
cats.
3) Dry food left out for even quite short periods become contaminated.
Tinned food is eaten quickly enough that this does not happen.
4) Dry food is a know cause of urinary tract problems.
5) Because it is not sealed, dry food is often past its prime before
you even feed it to the cats.
6) What dry food do cats eat in the wild? None.
>My cat is in excellent health, she is at a healthy weight, and her teeth are
>much cleaner and healthier than before! So why should I change vets????
Because your vet is giving you BAD advice.
--
Bob.
Whoever said there is no such thing as a stupid question has
never worked in customer service.
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>"Bob Brenchley." <B...@Format.Publications.ukf.net> wrote in message
>news:ipc52t0vu349nt8s2...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:14:34 GMT, the3blrs <the3...@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <3a228d9a...@news.hot-toast.com>,
>> >Fr...@evenloade.totalserve.net (Frank H Davis Esq.) wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:03:54 -0700, Dale McD <da...@rtd.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >I've heard a rumour that even a little wet food daily (a spoonful in
>the
>> >> >morning and a spoonful at night...with dried food the rest of the day
>> >> >and night) is bad for a cat's teeth and breath.
>> >> >
>> >> >Any ideas?
>> >> >
>> >> >Thx,
>> >> >D.
>> >>
>> >> Somebody is telling you lies. In fact the reverse is true, tinned food
>> >> is by far the better diet for cats and you should limit their dry food
>> >> intake to a couple of meals a week.
>> >
>> >My two cats (ages 6 and 3) have never had wet food--my vet says that's
>> >good. The only time they've seen a vet is for annual checkup.
>>
>> Not a very good vet then is he.
>>
>> Find yourself one that understand cat nutrition.
>>
>How can you say that about a vet when it's obvious the cats are doing
>perfectly well on just dry food? My cat hates wet food and won't touch it.
>Should I starve her or force her to eat it?
>
Because any vet that advises dry food only does not understand the
nutritional needs of cats.
--
Bob.
If aliens are smart enough to travel through space, why do they
keep abducting the dumbest people on earth?
Phil P.
meerkat <m...@mymail.com> wrote in message
news:8vuhms$j...@nnrp3.farm.idt.net...
> > There is VERY little evidence for that. In most cases a cat does not
> > even crunch its food, and certainly cannot chew its food which is what
> > would be needed for the food to clean its teeth.
>
> That's funny, it seems that the plaque on my cat's teeth has been
> DRASTICALLY reduced since feeding her IAMS dry food. AND, She CHEWS the
food
Cats don't "chew" food. They have no first premolars and no lower
(inferior) first or second premolars; the molars consist of a single upper
and lower tooth on each side. When the mouth is closed, the upper sectorial
tooth slides
across the vestibular surface of the lower sectorial tooth, producing
an effective scissor-like cutting action - not a chewing action. They don't
chew the dry food, just break the food into smaller pieces, so where's the
benefit?
The teeth of the cat are designed for grasping, puncturing, and tearing
(cutting),
rather than for true mastication. Cats are carnivores - teeth aren't
designed to eat cereal.
> with her TEETH. I actually hear the food grinding between her teeth as she
> chews....hmmmmm. maybe I have an extraordinary cat!
Maybe you don't know the difference between breaking food into smaller
pieces and chewing....
Phil
>
>
> > >It contains
> > >vitamins and minerals to keep the teeth and bones strong and healthy.
Wet
> > >food doesn't hurt the teeth, but the vitamins and minerals will help
keep
> > >the teeth strong and healthy.
> > >My veterinarian suggested that I always keep a dish of dry food
available
> > >for my cat.
>
> > Change your vet. That is BAD advice.
>
> Why is it BAD advice? Please explain in detail.
> My cat is in excellent health, she is at a healthy weight, and her teeth
are
> much cleaner and healthier than before! So why should I change vets????
>
meerkat
HA HA HA HA!
Phil P.
Victor M. Martinez <mar...@boris.che.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:8vu38f$j3k$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
> Frank H Davis Esq. <Fr...@evenloade.totalserve.net> wrote:
> >Somebody is telling you lies. In fact the reverse is true, tinned food
> >is by far the better diet for cats and you should limit their dry food
> >intake to a couple of meals a week.
>
> food exclusively (provided the dry food is good, i.e. premium).
Haven't we been through all this before, Vic? You *still* don't get it...
There is
> no reason whatsoever to say that one food is better than the other when
they
> provide the same nutrients and are made from the same ingredients.
How right you are! That's why dry food isn't very good for a cat, its not
made from the same ingredients as canned food. Dry food, Vic, is about
35% -40% carbohydrate - *none* of which a cat needs - zero, nada, zip. Dry
food, at best, is 80%-85% digestible. Right off the bat, 50% of the dry
food intake is useless to a cat - fillers. Canned food contains *more*
protein, less carbohydrate (2.8% -8.6%) and more fat than dry food. Cats
are adapted to a protein- fat-rich, carbohydrate-poor diet.
The water content of the commercial foods commonly fed to cats varies from
8% in dry foods to over 75% in canned foods. When fed canned food with
access to drinking water, they obtain over 90% of their total water intake
from the diet, whereas on dry food, 96% of the total water intake is
obtained by drinking. The total free water intake (from food and drinking
water) decreases when cats are fed dry food only, so that the water to dry
matter intake ratio when fed on commercial dry foods varies from 2.0 to 2.8:
1 whereas on canned foods it varies from 3. 0 to 5.7: 1 (NRC). Thus for any
given dry matter intake cats have a higher water turnover on canned than on
dry foods. The urine concentration of all solutes, including potentially
calculogenic crystalloids, depends on urine volume. A higher water turnover
helps flush crystallogenic substances from the urinary tract before they
grow to sufficient size to interfere with normal urinary function.
Cats fed dry food drink more than 6 times more water than cats fed canned
food but that much of this water contributes to fecal moisture so that urine
volume is lower and urine specific gravity higher in cats fed dry food -
high urine specific gravity is a predisposing factor for FUS.
Another unpleasant feature of dry food - its sprayed with digest otherwise
cats wouldn't eat it. Digest is "a microbiologically stable material
resulting from digesting animal tissues. . . ." Digest is sprayed onto the
outside of cat foods at 4 to 10 percent of the final finished product or is
incorporated directly into the food. Digest can enhance the palatability of
foods by as much as two- to threefold over the uncoated product. Digest
also contains significant quantities of phosphoric acid - which
manufacturers don't have to list in the ingredients list because they don't
add it. Once incorporated into cat food, the phosphoric acid increases the
amount of acid ingested by the cat -- that's in *addition* to the acidifiers
already added to the food. Chronic acidification leads to metabolic
acidosis, demineralization of bone, hypokalemia and renal failure. Get it
now?
Just a closing note:
"Results suggest that idiopathic cystitis occurs commonly in cats with
stranguria, hematuria, pollakiuria, or inappropriate elimination and is
associated with consumption of dry foods."
J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997 Jan 1;210(1):46-50
Clinical evaluation of cats with nonobstructive urinary tract diseases.
Buffington CA, Chew DJ, Kendall MS, Scrivani PV, Thompson SB, Blaisdell JL,
Woodworth BE
Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine,
Ohio State University, Columbus 43210, USA.
> Wet food is believed by some to contribute to tooth decay more than dry
food,
> but cats are bad chewers, so the cleaning they get from kibble is minimal.
> Wet food does cause, in my experience, smellier poop and breath.
A lot easier to deal with than CRF, FUS and cystitis.....
Phil
>
> --
> Victor M. Martinez, Jr. | The University of Texas at Austin
> mar...@che.utexas.edu | Department of Chemical Engineering
> http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv | Austin, TX 78712
> If we knew what we were doing it would not be called research, would it?
Phil P.
> * http://www.iams.com/products/product.asp?productID=5 for more
information
> on IAMS dry cat food Original Formula
>
> *From Feline Information Page: ( http://www.best.com/~sirlou/cat.shtml )
Not a veterinary medical source. If you're gonna quote sources, quote
*Veterinary Medical* sources, not private or commercial web sites.
>
> Dry Foods
>
> Dry foods are the least expensive of the four types and, being
dry,
> have the added advantage of an abrasive action which helps to keep
> the
> teeth and gums clean and healthy and minimize the buildup of
dental
> tartar.
Minimal advantage since cats don't chew food. There are no first premolars
and no lower (inferior) first or second premolars; the molars consist of a
single upper and lower tooth on each side. When the mouth is closed, the
upper sectorial tooth slides across the vestibular surface of the lower
sectorial tooth, producing an effective scissor-like cutting action - not a
chewing action. Cats jaws don't move side to side much, either.... The
temporalis, masseter, and pterygoid muscles are relatively large and
powerful. They act to close the jaw and can produce an astounding amount of
pressure on the sharp borders of the teeth. The m. digastricus, which
attaches to the angular process of the mandible and the paracondylar process
of the skull, is the only muscle that acts to open the jaw... which muscles
rotate the cat's jaw to chew......?
They derive their protein and fat from meat, fish, poultry,
> and/or dairy products blended into a cereal base, usually corn
meal.
Dry food contains more than 35% carbohydrate. After glucose is absorbed
into the body, it must be phosphorylated to glucose-6-phosphate before it
can be metabolized. The liver of most omnivorous animals, including the
domestic dog, has two enzymes that catalyze this reaction, glucokinase and
hexokinase. Hexokinase is active when low levels of glucose are delivered to
the liver, and glucokinase operates whenever the liver receives a large load
of glucose from the portal vein. The feline liver has active hexokinase but
*does not* have active glucokinase. Consequently, the rate of glucose
metabolism in the liver of the cat *cannot* increase in response to high
levels of soluble carbohydrate in the diet to the same degree as the rate in
the liver of a species possessing both enzymes.
Cats do not have a dietary need for carbohydrate. The cat is able to
convert the amino acid serine to glucose by a route that does not involve
either pyruvate or serine dehydratase. Cats maintain a *constant* state of
gluconeogenesis and manufacture enough sugars from protein and fat for the
maintenance of blood glucose levels. 35% of a dry diet is useless
carbohydrate fillers. Another 15% is indigestible.
There you have it! 50% of a dry food meal is crap. Canned food is 90% -
95% digestible and contains 2.8 - 8.6 % carbohydrate and more protein and
more fat. I suppose because dry food labels say 35% protein and canned food
labels say 10% protein, you think dry food has more protein? Au
contrare....
The amount of protein guaranteed on the label of dry cat foods is about 35
percent, and in canned foods about 10 percent. Canned foods, however,
contain more water. A more appropriate way to compare the nutrient content
is on a "dry matter" basis. To compare nutrient contents on a dry matter
basis, one divides the nutrient of interest by the total dry matter (100
percent minus the percentage of moisture on the label). In the above
example, dry foods are about 90 percent dry matter, so 35 percent protein
divided by 90 percent dry matter equals 38 percent protein on a dry matter
basis; canned foods are closer to 25 percent dry matter, so 10 percent
protein divided by 25 percent is 40 percent protein on a dry matter basis.
Calculated on a dry matter basis, the canned food in this example contains
more protein than the dry food. Another myth dispelled...
> Careful balancing and the addition of vitamin and mineral
> supplements
> have made the modern dry food a good and well-balanced diet.
>
> These foods are typically about 10% water (no matter how dry they
> appear), and thus have long shelf and bowl lives. This means the
> food
> may be left out at all times and the cat may help himself to many
> small meals rather than one or two large meals. This improves
tone
> and digestion.
....and increases the risk of renal disease:
"being fed ad libitum increased the likelihood of renal disease."
ACVIM Seattle 2000 Oral and Poster Abstracts
DIET AND LIFESTYLE VARIABLES AS RISK FACTORS FOR RENAL DISEASE IN PET CATS.
M.R. Slater, W.J. Burkholder, C. Fitzgerald. Texas A&M University, College
Station, TX.
>
> One theoretical disadvantage is a predisposition among male cats,
> especially neuters, to develop Feline Urological Syndrome (FUS).
> This
> predisposition has not been substantiated at this time (neither
has
> it
> been disproved) and veterinarians are sharply divided on the
issue.
This is peered-reviewed *veterinary* *medical* journal... No division
here:
J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997 Jan 1;210(1):46-50
Clinical evaluation of cats with nonobstructive urinary tract diseases.
Buffington CA, Chew DJ, Kendall MS, Scrivani PV, Thompson SB, Blaisdell JL,
Woodworth BE
Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine,
Ohio State University, Columbus 43210, USA.
"CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS: Results suggest that idiopathic cystitis occurs
commonly in cats with stranguria, hematuria, pollakiuria, or inappropriate
elimination and is associated with consumption of dry foods."
"An increased risk of FUS has been reported in cats fed exclusively dry
food, and the same or less risk has been observed in those fed canned and
other types of foods. An analysis of these data has suggested a
dose-response effect on risk with regard to feeding dry food."
C.A. Tony Buffington, D.V.M., Ph.D.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Nutrition; Associate Professor,
Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of Veterinary Clinical
Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio State University,
Columbus, Ohio; Head, Nutrition Support Service, Veterinary Teaching
Hospital, The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio
> If such a predisposition exists, it would probably be due to the
low
> water content of the dry foods. Providing an adequate source of
> good-
> tasting fresh water will often negate any such problem.
Bullshit. There's no "If" about it.
"The total free water intake (from food and drinking water) decreases when
cats are fed dry food only, so that the water to dry matter intake ratio
when fed on commercial dry foods varies from 2.0 to 2.8: 1 whereas on canned
foods it varies from 3. 0 to 5.7: 1. Thus for any given dry matter intake
cats have a higher water turnover on canned than on dry foods."
National Research Council; "Nutritional Requirements of Cats"
"Cats fed dry food drink more water than six times more water than cats fed
canned food but that much of this water contributes to fecal moisture so
that urine volume is lower and urine specific gravity higher in cats fed dry
food. The urine concentration of all solutes, including potentially
calculogenic crystalloids, depends on urine volume."
C.A. Tony Buffington, D.V.M., Ph.D.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Nutrition; Associate Professor,
Section of Small Animal Medicine, Department of Veterinary Clinical
Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio State University,
Columbus, Ohio; Head, Nutrition Support Service, Veterinary Teaching
Hospital, The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio
Dennis J. Chew, D.V.M.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (Internal
Medicine); Professor, Section of Smal Animal Medicine, Department of
Veterinary Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio State
University, Columbus, Ohio
>
> Dry foods tend to lose their nutrition
...the little they have
slowly over time, especially
> upon exposure to air and light. Avoid using any dry food more
than
> six months old. If dry food must be stored for long periods (as
on
> board ship), store the food in air- and light-tight containers.
While cats eat, they drop saliva moistened food back into the bowl.
Moistened food exposed to air is a breeding ground for bacteria. Dry food
is commonly left out for days...... otherwise, it wouldn't be
"convenient"....
A little dry (15% - 20%) probably provides as much dental benefit as a lot.
There is no advantage to dry food that outweighs the disadvantages. It was
primarily designed for.... well, lets face the facts, cheap, lazy owners.
Have a nice day....
Phil
Phil P.
Judy <wumpygirl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:WWXU5.12688$3u1.2...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
>
>
> > >How can you say that about a vet when it's obvious the cats are doing
> > >perfectly well on just dry food? My cat hates wet food and won't touch
> it.
> > >Should I starve her or force her to eat it?
> > >
> >
> > nutritional needs of cats.
> >
> > --
> > Bob.
>
> hints as to how she might accomplish this?
Gradually increase the moisture content of the dry food until its about the
same as canned. Then gradually mix in canned food - increasing the canned
food component while simultaneously decreasing the moistened dry food
component until its all canned. I've done this about a thousand times
(literally). Works almost every time.
Phil.
>
> Judy
>
Phil P.
Sherry Riddles <srid...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001128194318...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
> (snipped)
>
> >How right you are! That's why dry food isn't very good for a cat, its
not
> >made from the same ingredients as canned food.
>
>
> We've been through this all before, and though it's a worthwhile topict,
I'd
> like to see one issue clarified. "Canned" or "tinned" food can mean
anything
> from Nutro, Iams, and all the way down to the 5-cans-for-a-dollar junk
from
> the grocery store that stinks to high heaven and contains God knows what.
I'd
> like to hear some explanation of the differences in content, if anyone has
that
> information. Or what brand seems to be most highly recommended?
>
> Sherry
Nutro Natural Choice or Nutro Max Cat - not the Nutro "Gourmet" line.
Phil.
>
>
>
>
D_S.
Our first cat Nikita, was given a once a week wet food treat
and the rest all dried food.. she was great.. healthy as can be..
her teeth were fine. She was stolen from us along with our
pet Chihuahua "Chalo".. we don't know why!! we came home one day
and everything was gone.. even the pets! I miss her. She was so cool.
My second cat.. Fox..Ah.. what a cat... he was really tough
and he only ate dried food
He would sniff at the wet stuff and meow like a banshee until I put
dried food in front of him
I'm not kidding! He died in a cat fight with Oscar the neighbourhoods
white street cat. Apparently Oscar didn't like Fox muscling in on his catnip
patch
(which was next door to me.. belonged to a Chinese gardening couple)
My mother thinks it was because Fox was neutered and therefore didn't have
the venom to win the fight
I think its because Oscar was a mean old cat who hated Fox, who was so
pretty. Oscar died the following year in a car accident.
I mourned Fox's death for a long time..but recently we got a new kitten
named him "Moloko". Moloko actually.. is a real strange eater..
eat wet food once in a while.. but he doesn't like it.
He is only little.. but is gaining weight and is so playful and sweet
healthy with strong teeth
I think cats have got personal tastes you know?
and if they are healthy and with no signs of getting sick
one should stick to the diet they choose for themselves
Our vet told us that Moloko should have the milk only once a day
and only a little bit.. and keep a lot of fresh water with the premium kitty
food
we have for him.
He seems fine.. and has got a LOT of energy
so what's wrong?
its it all relative anyways?
- D
<kchu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:8vumb9$dlk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Hi, I'm new but this kind of applies to my cat who is soon to have a
> full mouth extraction. Very little about the cause of periodontis,
> stomatitus and other mouth problems is known. I had my cats gums
> lasered and 6months later you would never have known it. We have
> controlled it with Pred and Metro in low doses but there seems to be a
> growing consensus among vets that the only way to control it is
> removing all teeth behind the canines. There is a school of thought
> that the cats are hypersensitive to the bacteria in the plaque or IOW,
> allergic to it. This is in cats that do not have any other immune
> diseases. It is probably genetic, very often and has little to do with
> diet. Just as in humans you may know two siblings who one brushes and
> flosses like a fanatic and another does nothing special. The fanatic
> still gets cavities and the other has none. What can explain such
> things? Just a thought.
>
> In article <8vu3up$248$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> lisatkiom <lisa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <3A2285EA...@rtd.com>,
> > Dale McD <da...@rtd.com> wrote:
> > > I've heard a rumour that even a little wet food daily (a spoonful in
> > the
> > > morning and a spoonful at night...with dried food the rest of the
> day
> > > and night) is bad for a cat's teeth and breath.
> > >
> > > Any ideas?
> > >
> > > Thx,
> > > D.
> > >
> > My vet told me that hard food is best because they scrape a little
> > tartar off their teeth as they chew it.
> >
> > Lisa
> > --
> > Playing: Final Fantasy VIII
Judy
> >How can you say that about a vet when it's obvious the cats are doing
> >perfectly well on just dry food? My cat hates wet food and won't touch
it.
> >Should I starve her or force her to eat it?
> >
>
> Because any vet that advises dry food only does not understand the
> nutritional needs of cats.
>
> --
> Bob.
Ok - on to question two. Jen's cat won't touch wet food. Do you have any
hints as to how she might accomplish this?
Judy
Vicki Cleaver
wumpygirl...@yahoo.com (Judy) purred the following:
You could introduce it slowly. Take her dry food and wet it a little.
Increase the amount of water each day and then mix the dry with a little
wet. Increase the amount of wet until there is no more dry left.
You could also try buying fish flavours because they have the strongest
smell. And heat them in the microwaive for about 10 seconds - the heat
makes it even more fragrant (make sure you test it before you give it to
her - different microwaives heat at different rates). Cats rely very much
on smelling their food.
Sherry Riddles
ninjacat
bonbon wrote:
> On 28 Nov 2000 00:17:56 GMT, kittecat=NOS...@dingoblue.net.au (Vicki
> Cleaver) wrote:
>
> >Whilst licking their paws in alt.cats on 28 Nov 2000,
> >kros...@uoguelph.ca (Kelly) purred the following:
> >
> >>hahhahahaahaha.. sorry I read that wrong. disregard. LOL
> >
> >LOL ... when I read your first post I thought you were kidding but ther was
> >no :) ... glad you understood :)
> >
> >
> >As for cats eating their own puke I have to agree ... that *is* disgusting!
> >That's what dogs are for :)
>
ninjacat
CK wrote:
> -snip-
> > I think cats have got personal tastes you know?
> > and if they are healthy and with no signs of getting sick
> > one should stick to the diet they choose for themselves
> > Our vet told us that Moloko should have the milk only once a day
> > and only a little bit.. and keep a lot of fresh water with the premium kitty
> > food
> > we have for him.
> > He seems fine.. and has got a LOT of energy
> > so what's wrong?
> > its it all relative anyways?
> >
> > - D
>
Sherry Riddles
>
>Phil.
>
>
have successfully gotten him broken of the Fancy Feast habit, and he's doing
well on Nutro (downside, it's very difficult to find here, I have to make a
trip into the city to get it) Which reminds me I don't know if I ever thanked
you for all the info. on the disease that you sent. Another question. During
that time the vet sold me a large bottle of "Pet-Tinic" Pediatric drops, a
vitamin-mineral supplement. He's fully recovered, eating very well, and I
discontinued the drops. But it's such a large bottle. Should I continue with
it? Or can I use it on the malnourished cats at the shelter?
Sherry
CatNoSpam
taken it as a way to try and INSULT others. Well, I can insult too and
it is directed only TO YOU Jen. I note your Organization in your Email
header states "Institute for Destitute Prostitutes" ...I would further
guess that you are either a prostitute or maybe one in training. Just
stay on your side of the street so you won't pass a smell to my cat.
Rich
--
J + T
dry food...
Tammy
Jennifer
wrote:
>This forum should be a learning place for many of us but I see you have
>taken it as a way to try and INSULT others.
I'm only a learner compared to some of the so called "cat lovers" on
this group.
> Well, I can insult too and
>it is directed only TO YOU Jen. I note your Organization in your Email
>header
Email header? I haven't sent you an email.
> states "Institute for Destitute Prostitutes" ...I would further
>guess that you are either a prostitute or maybe one in training.
An honourable profession, and not one to be ashamed of.
> Just
>stay on your side of the street so you won't pass a smell to my cat.
>
You must be American then. No sense of humour.
Jen
Phil P.
> >Sherry Riddles <srid...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:20001128194318...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
> >> (snipped)
> >>
> >> >How right you are! That's why dry food isn't very good for a cat, its
> >not
> >> >made from the same ingredients as canned food.
> >>
> >> (snipped)
> >>
> >> We've been through this all before, and though it's a worthwhile
topict,
> >I'd
> >> like to see one issue clarified. "Canned" or "tinned" food can mean
> >anything
> >> from Nutro, Iams, and all the way down to the 5-cans-for-a-dollar junk
> >from
> >> the grocery store that stinks to high heaven and contains God knows
what.
> >I'd
> >> like to hear some explanation of the differences in content, if anyone
has
> >that
> >> information.
I'm sorry for not explaining this a little better, Sherry. Some pet food
manufacturers use what is known as "least cost formulation" to compound
their diets. This means that the proportion and quality of ingredients may
fluctuate with ingredient prices. The final formula at any given time thus
depends on a computer program, which may or may not generate the same
formulation as the one actually tested. While variations vary, this may
explain why some variability from batch to batch is noted by the observant
cat who will suddenly refuse to eat a food he's been eating for time.
Manufacturers of premium cat foods, such as Nutro, use fixed formulas that
do not change on the basis of ingredient prices. This is one of the reasons
for the higher price of these foods; another reason for the higher price is
the quality of the ingredients - won't see a lot of cheap vegetable fillers
or cheap by-products (slaughterhouse waste) in Nutro.
Three of the five major pet food companies in the United States are
subsidiaries of major multinational companies: Nestlé (Alpo, Fancy Feast,
Friskies, Mighty Dog), Heinz (9 Lives, Amore, Gravy Train, Kibbles n Bits,
Recipe, Vets). Other leading companies are Procter & Gamble (Eukanuba and
Iams [Iams was good when it was owned by Iams]), Mars (Kal Kan, Mealtime,
Pedigree, Sheba). From a business standpoint, multinational food companies
owning pet food manufacturing companies is an ideal relationship. The
multinationals have a captive market in which to capitalize on their
slaughterhouse waste products, and the pet food manufacturers have a
reliable source from which to purchase their bulk materials.
Or what brand seems to be most highly recommended?
> >>
> >> Sherry
> >
> >Nutro Natural Choice or Nutro Max Cat - not the Nutro "Gourmet" line.
> >
> >Phil.
> >
> >
> Phil, you'll be happy to hear that since Yoda's recovery from liver
disease, we
> have successfully gotten him broken of the Fancy Feast habit, and he's
doing
> well on Nutro
I'm happy to hear Yoda made a full recovery! Whadid-I-tell-ya? Never
underestimate the indomitable spirit of the cat! ;)
(downside, it's very difficult to find here, I have to make a
> trip into the city to get it)
Have you looked into ordering it online and having it delivered?
Which reminds me I don't know if I ever thanked
> you for all the info. on the disease that you sent.
My pleasure. I hope it helped.
Another question. During
> that time the vet sold me a large bottle of "Pet-Tinic" Pediatric drops, a
> vitamin-mineral supplement. He's fully recovered, eating very well, and I
> discontinued the drops. But it's such a large bottle. Should I continue
with
> it? Or can I use it on the malnourished cats at the shelter?
> Sherry
If he's eating Nutro, there's no need for vitamin supplements - unless he
has a specific medical need. In some cases, supplementation can cause an
excess and actually be deleterious. Check with your vet, but I'd say the
shelter cats probably need it more than Yoda.
Thanks for the update! ;)
Phil
Frank H Davis Esq.
Martinez) wrote:
>Frank H Davis Esq. <Fr...@evenloade.totalserve.net> wrote:
>>Somebody is telling you lies. In fact the reverse is true, tinned food
>>is by far the better diet for cats and you should limit their dry food
>>intake to a couple of meals a week.
>
>Now you're the one telling lies.
No I'm not.
>Cats can have a very good diet if fed dry
>food exclusively (provided the dry food is good, i.e. premium).
There is zero difference between cheap and premium, it is one big con.
>There is
>no reason whatsoever to say that one food is better than the other when they
>provide the same nutrients and are made from the same ingredients.
True. See my comment above. But tinned food contains far less filler
(vegetable matter).
>Wet food is believed by some to contribute to tooth decay more than dry food,
True, but then look at how bad dry is for the cat in other ways.
>but cats are bad chewers, so the cleaning they get from kibble is minimal.
>Wet food does cause, in my experience, smellier poop and breath.
That shows that the gut is digesting it better than dry.
>
--
Frank.
Frank H Davis Esq.
><kchu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:900h17$q68$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> In article <t0OU5.145536$e5.8...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>,
>> "D_S." <deeus_re...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> > named him "Moloko". Moloko actually.. is a real strange eater..
>> > he eats dried food.. but loves Whiskas Cat Milk.
>>
>> What is Whiskas Cat Milk? I have never heard of it.
>>
>> Karen
>>
>>
Replies go down here please
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
>It's packaged milk for cats made by Whiskas the same company that makes the
>cat food.
>It comes in square cardboard boxes (like ssips) that you can get in the pet
>food aisle. It isn't refrigerated in the store. I've never used it because
>milk gives my cat diarrhea.
>
>
Actually, your cat is the sort of cat this milk is aimed at. Go get
some and try it.
--
Frank.
Frank H Davis Esq.
wrote:
>A little dry (15% - 20%) probably provides as much dental benefit as a lot.
>There is no advantage to dry food that outweighs the disadvantages. It was
>primarily designed for.... well, lets face the facts, cheap, lazy owners.
>
>Have a nice day....
>
>Phil
Just in case people did not read down to the bottom of Phil's rather
long posting I thought I would repost his excellent closing paragraph.
--
Frank.
Victor M. Martinez
>Haven't we been through all this before, Vic? You *still* don't get it...
First of all, please use my full name when addressing me. I don't know you and
you don't know me. Second, I don't recall having this discussion with you or
anybody else, you must be confusing me with somebody else. Third, please drop
the attitude. I am a highly educated individual, we can have a reasonable
and polite dicussion.
>made from the same ingredients as canned food. Dry food, Vic, is about
>35% -40% carbohydrate - *none* of which a cat needs - zero, nada, zip. Dry
Are you telling me that cats get *all* their energy from fat and protein?
Given the fact that carbs are *much* easier to convert to energy I find
this hard to believe. But I'm not an expert in feline physiology.
>Cats fed dry food drink more than 6 times more water than cats fed canned
>food but that much of this water contributes to fecal moisture so that urine
>volume is lower and urine specific gravity higher in cats fed dry food -
>high urine specific gravity is a predisposing factor for FUS.
Water is water, regardless of the source. Water is absorbed into the
bloodstream and excreted by the kidneys. Once the food is digested there
is no segregation of water molecules based on their origin. How can you
rationalize your statement in the previous paragraph?
>Another unpleasant feature of dry food - its sprayed with digest otherwise
The food I feed my cats does not have digest. There goes your theory about
"cats not eating it otherwise". You can check out the ingredient list
at their website (www.naturapet.com), look for Innova feline.
> "Results suggest that idiopathic cystitis occurs commonly in cats with
>stranguria, hematuria, pollakiuria, or inappropriate elimination and is
>associated with consumption of dry foods."
Rather wide generalization, don't you think? Those of us with experience
in the academic publishing world know that studies published should be
looked at with caution by non-experts. The same data can be used to reach
very different conclusions, depending on the assumptions and methodologies
used to examine it.
FYI, the nutritional analysis of the dry food I feed my cats is (on a dry
basis):
40% protein
27% carbohydrates
22% fat
< 7% ash
4% crude fiber
No additives, no fillers, no artificial colors or flavors. 100% human-grade
ingredients (i.e. food fit for human consumption, not the crap most
manufactures put in their products).
Considering teh fact that this food is significantly more expensive than
any premium food available in pet stores *and* the fact that it is not
available in pet stores (there are only two places to buy it here in Austin),
I rather think of it as the opposite of what a "cheap and lazy owner" would
feed their cats.
Cheers.
Kelly
> Phil P. <maxs...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >Haven't we been through all this before, Vic? You *still* don't get
it...
>
> First of all, please use my full name when addressing me. I don't know you
and
> you don't know me. Second, I don't recall having this discussion with you
or
> anybody else, you must be confusing me with somebody else. Third, please
drop
> the attitude. I am a highly educated individual, we can have a reasonable
> and polite dicussion.
>
> >made from the same ingredients as canned food. Dry food, Vic, is about
> >35% -40% carbohydrate - *none* of which a cat needs - zero, nada, zip.
Dry
>
> Are you telling me that cats get *all* their energy from fat and protein?
> Given the fact that carbs are *much* easier to convert to energy I find
> this hard to believe. But I'm not an expert in feline physiology.
>
Impossible (sorry Phil). You don't have to be an expert in feline
physiology, only in Biology to know that the basis of energy in the cell and
thus in the body of the cat (and all animals) depends on ATP production,
which depends ONLY ON glucose. And glucose comes from carbohydrates. The
basis of life and energy depends mostly on carbohydrates... some on fats,
and very little on protein.
Kelly
Nick Leverton
Jennifer <jen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Nov 2000 05:55:17 GMT, CatNoSpam <CatN...@Home.Com>
>wrote:
>
>>stay on your side of the street so you won't pass a smell to my cat.
>
Anyway, everyone knows it's fish you get it from.
N.
Victor M. Martinez
>There is zero difference between cheap and premium, it is one big con.
You are sadly mistaken. Cheap foods not only use inferior main ingredients,
they also change formulas seasonally to keep the price constant.
>True. See my comment above. But tinned food contains far less filler
>(vegetable matter).
On a dry basis they are very close in composition.
>True, but then look at how bad dry is for the cat in other ways.
Please explain. My cats are perfectly happy and eat dry food at will and wet
food once a day.
>That shows that the gut is digesting it better than dry.
Please explain how smelly poop relates to better digestion.
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>This forum should be a learning place for many of us but I see you have
Jen could never be a Destitute Prostitute, she is too good to be poor
:)
--
Bob.
Yes, I am an agent of the Devil, but my duties are mostly ceremonial.
Bob Brenchley.
>>>Cats cannot chew, they do not have the jaw for it.
>
>HA HA HA HA!
>
People quite often get hysterical when they realize how wrong they
have been. You will get over it in a few days.
--
Bob.
Laugh and the world laughs with you... Cry, and the world looks
sheepish and suddenly remembers it had other plans.
Bob Brenchley.
She may have to just bite the bullet and throw out the dry. After a
couple of day he cat will get used to it.
I've weaned 4 or 5 cats of dry - you sometimes have to be a little
cruel in order to be kind.
--
Bob.
Looking forward to the start of the new millennium on January 1st
2001.
Judy
"Bob Brenchley." <B...@Format.Publications.ukf.net> wrote in message
news:8uqa2tcgo0im9vepk...@4ax.com...
> couple of day he cat will get used to it.
>
> I've weaned 4 or 5 cats of dry - you sometimes have to be a little
> cruel in order to be kind.
Agreed.
Fortunately mine took it upon herself. She used to eat about 50/50 but now
she's at 80% wet. She's a nibbler so I leave a some dry food out at all
times but she's not really interested in it. Goes for it only if she gets
the urge to merge with the trough while we are out or if she wakes up hungry
in the middle of the night.
She seems happier and to be doing better on mostly wet.
Judy
Martin Goff
kittecat=NOS...@dingoblue.net.au (Vicki Cleaver) writes:
>As for cats eating their own puke I have to agree ... that *is* disgusting!
>That's what dogs are for :)
ROFLMAO - I'll never be able to look a dog in the face again now without
laughing.
Martin Goff
>What is Whiskas Cat Milk? I have never heard of it.
It is a lactose reduced milk produced by cat food manufacturer Whiskas here in
the UK - supposedly better for them, but it still gave my cats the craps, so
they are back on good old healthy water - strict 'no milk at all whether
lactose reduced or not' diet, and much better for it.
Martin
Kelly
"Phil P." <ph...@maxshouse.com> wrote in message
news:9042o1$sbe$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
> Kelly <kros...@uoguelph.ca> wrote in message > > Are you telling me that
> cats get *all* their energy from fat and protein?
> > > Given the fact that carbs are *much* easier to convert to energy I
find
> > > this hard to believe. But I'm not an expert in feline physiology.
> > >
> >
> > Impossible (sorry Phil). You don't have to be an expert in feline
> > physiology, only in Biology to know that the basis of energy in the cell
> and
> > thus in the body of the cat (and all animals) depends on ATP production,
> > which depends ONLY ON glucose. And glucose comes from carbohydrates.
The
> > basis of life and energy depends mostly on carbohydrates... some on
fats,
> > and very little on protein.
> >
> > Kelly
>
for
> carbohydrate??? The enzyme activity values in the cat's liver indicate
> that gluconeogenic amino acids in the diet are deaminated and converted to
> glucose. The hepatic gluconeogenic enzymes in cats always have a high rate
> of activity for the conversion of excess dietary amino acids to glucose.
> Cats maintain a *constant* state of gluconeogenesis.
>
> Compared with omnivorous species, the cat has a high hepatic activity of
the
> enzyme serine-pyruvate aminotransferase and low activity of the enzyme
> serine dehydratase. The cat is able to convert the amino acid serine to
> glucose by a route that does not involve either pyruvate or serine
> dehydratase.
>
> Ask any vet professor at your college. Cats have NO dietary requirement
for
> carbohydrate.
Every animal has some requirement for carbohydrates Phil.
Phil P.
Cats do not require carbohydrate in their diets. Cats convert
gluconeogenic amino acids into glucose for the maintenance of blood glucose
levels - they maintain a *constant* state gluconeogenesis for immediate use
of glucose.
Did you ever get the Cornell Book of Cats like I suggested? Look on page 79
where it says:
"Although carbohydrates usually make up about 40 percent of commercial dry
cat foods, they are not a dietary necessity for the cat. In fact, cats can
be maintained on carbohydrate-free diets in which energy is derived
exclusively from noncarbohydrate sources." ...and tell me what it
says....;)
Phil
Phil P.
Phil P. <ph...@maxshouse.com> wrote in message
How can you
> > rationalize your statement in the previous paragraph?
>
> Don't have to, the Rational
Typo: its *N*ational Research Council
Research Council did it for me. You'll find it
> the Nutrient Requirements of Cats:
>
> "The total free water intake (from food and drinking water) decreases when
> cats are fed dry food only, so that the water to dry matter intake ratio
> when fed on commercial dry foods varies from 2.0 to 2.8: 1 whereas on
canned
> foods it varies from 3. 0 to 5.7: 1" (NRC). Thus for any given dry matter
> intake cats have a higher water turnover on canned than on dry foods.
Phil
Kelly
> >
> > Every animal has some requirement for carbohydrates Phil.
> >
>
> Cats do not require carbohydrate in their diets. Cats convert
> gluconeogenic amino acids into glucose for the maintenance of blood
glucose
> levels - they maintain a *constant* state gluconeogenesis for immediate
use
> of glucose.
>
> Did you ever get the Cornell Book of Cats like I suggested? Look on page
79
> where it says:
>
> "Although carbohydrates usually make up about 40 percent of commercial dry
> cat foods, they are not a dietary necessity for the cat. In fact, cats can
> be maintained on carbohydrate-free diets in which energy is derived
> exclusively from noncarbohydrate sources." ...and tell me what it
> says....;)
>
> Phil
>
Well my version is an older one... and I just read the whole "Feeding"
section and it didn't say anything about carbohydrate free diets. In the
comparision of commercial cat foods however, the carbohydrate content always
outweights the protein content. Now tell me Phil, if cats do not require
CHO's AT ALL, then why would they even put it in cat foods????
Kelly
>
>
D_S.
That's a good one.
Premium Kitty is expensive, I change his food everyday regardless if he has
some in his bowl
and I take good care of my cat by taking him to the vet to get all his shots
and making sure
he is good perfect health.
with sharp strong white teeth and a shiny coat.
I know some cats who prefer wet food.. and are also perfectly healthy
so it doesnt matter what they choose as long as you feed them responsibly
and take good care of them
- D
"Frank H Davis Esq." <Fr...@evenloade.totalserve.net> wrote in message
news:3a25433b...@news.hot-toast.com...
Sherry Riddles
>>> >perfectly well on just dry food? My cat hates wet food and won't touch
>>it.
>>> >Should I starve her or force her to eat it?
>>> >
>>>
>>> Because any vet that advises dry food only does not understand the
>>> nutritional needs of cats.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bob.
>>
>>Ok - on to question two. Jen's cat won't touch wet food. Do you have any
>>hints as to how she might accomplish this?
>>
>>Judy
>
>
>She may have to just bite the bullet and throw out the dry. After a
>couple of day he cat will get used to it.
>
>I've weaned 4 or 5 cats of dry - you sometimes have to be a little
>cruel in order to be kind.
While I don't altogether disagree with incorporating canned food into the diet,
please don't "starve the cat for a couple of days". It's not good for cats; in
some cats (health-compromised, or in one specific case I know of, an especially
large and obese elderly cat) doing without food altogether can cause liver
problems.
Sherry
D_S.
for example my old beloved Fox would also get diarreah when he drank it
so we stopped giving it to him. I know for a fact that cats can't process
lactose found in normal milk.. so that's a no no!
Moloko on the other hand.. loves Whiskas and he meows and jumps when I say
"Moloko, milk time!!"
purring and almost tripping me over when I give him a little in his milk
dish.
He has no diarreah and it is so sweet to see him sleep off the milk on a
patch of sunlight =)
- D
"Martin Goff" <repto...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20001129185445...@nso-mc.aol.com...
High
ingest carbohydrates in the form of the stomach contents of the animals they
eat (grasses, grainsm etc). Have cats adapted to digest and utilize this, or
does it get passed through their systems undigested?
FYO, I feed unlimited dry food and one can of wet food per cat per day.
Phil P. <ph...@maxshouse.com> wrote in message
news:904b63$m3l$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
> Kelly <kros...@uoguelph.ca> wrote in message
> news:9046fo$4h5$1...@testinfo.cs.uoguelph.ca...
> >
> > "Phil P." <ph...@maxshouse.com> wrote in message
High
feed exclusively canned food, where do they get these crunchy bits? Cats eat
grass too, meaning that they crave vegetable matter. I checked all the
canned food at the feed store today and the second or third ingredient was
"wheat middlings"! What the heck!?!
Judy <wumpygirl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:DpfV5.20539$3u1.4...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
>
> "Bob Brenchley." <B...@Format.Publications.ukf.net> wrote in message
> news:8uqa2tcgo0im9vepk...@4ax.com...
> > On Wed, 29 Nov 2000 00:17:58 GMT, "Judy"
> > <wumpygirl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >> >How can you say that about a vet when it's obvious the cats are
doing
> > >> >perfectly well on just dry food? My cat hates wet food and won't
touch
> > >it.
> > >> >Should I starve her or force her to eat it?
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> Because any vet that advises dry food only does not understand the
> > >> nutritional needs of cats.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Bob.
> > >
> > >Ok - on to question two. Jen's cat won't touch wet food. Do you have
any
> > >hints as to how she might accomplish this?
> > >
> > >Judy
> >
> >
> > She may have to just bite the bullet and throw out the dry. After a
> > couple of day he cat will get used to it.
> >
> > I've weaned 4 or 5 cats of dry - you sometimes have to be a little
> > cruel in order to be kind.
>
Phil P.
>
> > >
> > > Every animal has some requirement for carbohydrates Phil.
> > >
> >
> > Cats do not require carbohydrate in their diets. Cats convert
> > gluconeogenic amino acids into glucose for the maintenance of blood
> glucose
> > levels - they maintain a *constant* state gluconeogenesis for immediate
> use
> > of glucose.
> >
> > Did you ever get the Cornell Book of Cats like I suggested? Look on
page
> 79
> > where it says:
> >
> > "Although carbohydrates usually make up about 40 percent of commercial
dry
> > cat foods, they are not a dietary necessity for the cat. In fact, cats
can
> > be maintained on carbohydrate-free diets in which energy is derived
> > exclusively from noncarbohydrate sources." ...and tell me what it
> > says....;)
> >
> > Phil
> >
>
Well, you better get the Second Edition. The Second Edition was published
in 1997.
>and I just read the whole "Feeding"
Go to page 79, "Feline Nutritional Requirements", "Carbohydrates".
> section and it didn't say anything about carbohydrate free diets.
As you have previously admitted, you "tend to read too fast and skip over
things." You most likely missed it.
In the
> comparision of commercial cat foods however, the carbohydrate content
always
> outweights the protein content.
*Only* in DRY foods! That's my point!
Now tell me Phil, if cats do not require
> CHO's AT ALL, then why would they even put it in cat foods????
Precisely my point! Carbohydrates are included as a cheap source of
calories and to provide "structure for dry cat foods" - that's why dry food
usually contains 35% - 40% carbohydrate and canned food contains only 2%-8%.
I didn't say cats can't use carbohydrates, I said they don't have a dietary
requirement for carbohydrate. Carbohydrates are a cheap source of calories.
Why do you think dry food is cheaper than canned food??? Cats do not
require *any* carbohydrates in their diet. That's a fact.
Why are you being so obtuse and arguing with a well known veterinary fact?
Phil
Phil P.
High <NoE...@YouSpamMe.org> wrote in message
news:UlkV5.153825$td5.22...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
> Hmmmmmm.....in the wild, where cats (of all kinds) eat prey, they will
> ingest carbohydrates in the form of the stomach contents of the animals
they
> eat (grasses, grainsm etc). Have cats adapted to digest and utilize this,
or
> does it get passed through their systems undigested?
That's all the carbohydrates cats in nature eat - what's inside their prey.
Cats can utilize carbohydrates, but they have no dietary requirement for
carbohydrate. Canned food is designed to resemble the natural diet of the
cat. That's why the moisture content, as well the carbohydrate content, is
also similar to that of prey.
Cats are *carnivores* not omnivores or herbivores.
> FYO, I feed unlimited dry food and one can of wet food per cat per day.
That's about right. A 4 kg cat needs about 240- 280 kcal metabolizable
energy (ME) per day. Canned food typically contains about 160 kcal/can (5.5
oz) and dry food, about 420 - 460 kcal/cup. If your cats are eating one can
(5.5 oz) and 1/4 cup dry/day - that's just about right.
Phil
MoonFancy
out of the bottom of the bowl, completely ignoing the canned. Sometimes they
eat all the canned and lick the plate clean, totally ignoring the dry.
Sometimes they won't eat at all. And sometimes, when I've boiled some chicken,
they turn their noses up at plain, unsalted broth, when other days they act
like a famine has begun and the broth is the last food on earth. Two of them
would give up 8 of their 9 lives for asparagus and/or avocado, while if I tried
to get the other three to eat a vegetable or fruit they'd probably call the
Humane Society and report me as an abusive parent.
They eat what they like, and this varies from day to day. I can't even
remember the last time I cleaned up any food vomit, although one of them,
Rapscallion, did throw up a hair ball this past summer.
They seem and act very healthy, and my vet confirms this. He says I am doing a
very fine job with them. So if they refuse wet food for a long time and only
want the dry - as they sometimes do - I'm not going to worry about it. I offer
what I have and what I can, and they either like it or hate it, but they all do
just fine! -- Beckie
Sherry Riddles
>would give up 8 of their 9 lives for asparagus and/or avocado
What!!???? I thought my cat's affinity for canteloupe was weird!! LOL
Sherry
CK
name...
Being a language nut I know that moloko means milk in Russian... :)
Our kitty got his name by his colour - he's totally black-brown and his
name is Laku, which is licorice in Finnish.
Chris
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>
>"Victor M. Martinez" <mar...@boris.che.utexas.edu> wrote in message
>news:903k0g$nmu$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
>> Phil P. <maxs...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> >Haven't we been through all this before, Vic? You *still* don't get
>it...
>>
>> First of all, please use my full name when addressing me. I don't know you
>and
>> you don't know me. Second, I don't recall having this discussion with you
>or
>> anybody else, you must be confusing me with somebody else. Third, please
>drop
>> the attitude. I am a highly educated individual, we can have a reasonable
>> and polite dicussion.
>>
>> >made from the same ingredients as canned food. Dry food, Vic, is about
>> >35% -40% carbohydrate - *none* of which a cat needs - zero, nada, zip.
>Dry
>>
>> Are you telling me that cats get *all* their energy from fat and protein?
>> Given the fact that carbs are *much* easier to convert to energy I find
>> this hard to believe. But I'm not an expert in feline physiology.
>>
>
>Impossible (sorry Phil). You don't have to be an expert in feline
>physiology, only in Biology to know that the basis of energy in the cell and
>thus in the body of the cat (and all animals) depends on ATP production,
>which depends ONLY ON glucose. And glucose comes from carbohydrates. The
>basis of life and energy depends mostly on carbohydrates... some on fats,
>and very little on protein.
>
>Kelly
>
I do hope that one day you will learn a little bit about cats Kelly.
I'm not holding my breath, but maybe in time you will understand.
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>Hmmmmmm.....in the wild, where cats (of all kinds) eat prey, they will
>ingest carbohydrates in the form of the stomach contents of the animals they
>eat (grasses, grainsm etc). Have cats adapted to digest and utilize this, or
>does it get passed through their systems undigested?
That forms a very small part of their diet, less than 5%. Which is why
the percentage of vegetable matter is so low in tinned food - to match
nature.
>FYO, I feed unlimited dry food and one can of wet food per cat per day.
Cut the dry.
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>A cat's natural diet.....rodents, birds, etc. Full of crunchy bits. If you
>feed exclusively canned food, where do they get these crunchy bits? Cats eat
>grass too, meaning that they crave vegetable matter. I checked all the
>canned food at the feed store today and the second or third ingredient was
>"wheat middlings"! What the heck!?!
A little bit of dry is not harmful, just keep it below 30% for good
health.
Alla Segal
it was OK. I'd appreciate the info as this is what my cat likes most and
it is the only Nutro brand that comes in 3oz cans which seems most
practical for my finicky cat. Thanks.
"Phil P." wrote:
>
> Sherry Riddles <srid...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20001128194318...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
> > (snipped)
> >
> > >How right you are! That's why dry food isn't very good for a cat, its
> not
> > >made from the same ingredients as canned food.
> >
> > (snipped)
> >
> > We've been through this all before, and though it's a worthwhile topict,
> I'd
> > like to see one issue clarified. "Canned" or "tinned" food can mean
> anything
> > from Nutro, Iams, and all the way down to the 5-cans-for-a-dollar junk
> from
> > the grocery store that stinks to high heaven and contains God knows what.
> I'd
> > like to hear some explanation of the differences in content, if anyone has
> that
> > information. Or what brand seems to be most highly recommended?
> >
> > Sherry
>
> Nutro Natural Choice or Nutro Max Cat - not the Nutro "Gourmet" line.
>
> Phil.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
Phil P.
MoonFancy <moon...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001130102833...@ng-cq1.aol.com...
> They seem and act very healthy, and my vet confirms this. He says I am
doing a
> very fine job with them. So if they refuse wet food for a long time and
only
> want the dry - as they sometimes do - I'm not going to worry about it. I
offer
> what I have and what I can, and they either like it or hate it, but they
all do
> just fine! -- Beckie
Many cats do quite well on dry, many do not. Just as some people who drink,
smoke and eat junk food live to 80, and some health fanatics have heart
attacks and drop dead at 35.
The "Wet-Dry" issue is not clear cut because many cats do well on dry. Its
impossible for me to convince you that dry food is not healthy for your cat
while you're looking at a healthy cat who eats dry food! However, look how
many years it took to find out that a taurine-deficient diet causes dilated
cardiomyopathy in cats - more than 35 years! Yet not every
taurine-deficient cat developed DCM. Try explaining taurine-deficient DCM
to an owner of a cat without DCM. Same situation I'm in, now.
The same principal applied to dry food before acidifiers were added - many
cats were developing struvite crystals. Now, since the advent of "urinary
tract health" diets, the incidence of struvite has decreased but the
incidence of calcium oxalate crystals and CRF has increased; calcium
oxalate, as a direct result of chronic acidification and magnesium
restriction. Chronic acidification is suspected of contributing to, or
causing renal disease. Chronic acidification has already been proven to
cause metabolic acidosis and demineralization of bone. Actually, the need
for urine acidifiers in cats should be unnecessary because cats naturally
produce acidic (<6.5 pH) urine! Therefore, the need for acidification
*must* be caused by diet itself. Correcting one problem with another problem
usually leads to more problems.
In nature, the cat's natural diet produces acidic urine, if this were not
true, feral cats would be dropping like flies from acute renal failure and
severe damage to the urinary bladder caused by urethral obstruction. This
does not seem to be happening.
According to the Veterinary Medical Data Base at Perdue, the prevalence of
CRF is 57 per 1000 dogs examined and 153 per 1000 cats examined. Mean age at
diagnosis is approximately 7 years in dogs and 9 years in cats. Dogs,
although technically carnivores, have adapted to an omnivorous diet because
they don't have the same high protein requirement and other metabolic
requirements as cats (e.g., cats cannot convert beta carotene to vitamin A
and must receive preformed vitamin A which occurs naturally only in animal
tissue, and arachidonic acid - cats cannot synthesize arachidonic acid from
linoleic acid. Arachidonic acid is found only in animal fats and fish oil).
The nearly triple prevalence of CRF in cats may be attributed to dry diets -
because more cats eat dry than canned. Dry food does not remotely resemble
a cat's natural diet in either moisture, ingredients or texture. Cats don't
eat cereal in nature.
Cystitis has already been associated with the consumption of dry food. This
does not mean that dry food consumption causes IC, but it could mean that
dry food consumption unmasks or aggravates the disorder in cats that are
predisposed to it (making it a nutrient-sensitive rather than a diet-induced
disease). Benefits of increased water intake achieved by feeding canned
food could include dilution of any noxious substances in urine, more
frequent urination to decrease bladder contact time with urine, and removal
of any excess crystals before they grow to sufficient size to interfere with
normal urinary function.
One last thought; I began my research into dry vs wet in *defense* of dry
food! Years ago, I was a proponent of dry food! (Before I knew better)
Phil
Phil P.
Alla Segal <se...@us.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:3A2693FB...@us.ibm.com...
> What is wrong with the Nutro Gourmet line?
There's only 85 -99 kcal/3 oz can. You'll need to feed 2 - 3 cans a day
($$). For me, with 5 cats - that's a half-case a day! Otherwise,
nothing's wrong with it. The protein content is great >50% (DM), about the
highest protein content on the market (other than kitten food).
The only Gourmet diets I don't recommend are the Veal Pate' and Lamb &
Turkey Cutlets; the phosphorus is a little too high. All the other Gourmet
diets are fine. I should have explained it better. Mea culpa.
I've always been wondering if
> it was OK. I'd appreciate the info as this is what my cat likes most and
> it is the only Nutro brand that comes in 3oz cans which seems most
> practical for my finicky cat. Thanks.
Nutro Max Cat Chicken & Liver comes in 3 oz cans, also.
Phil
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
>
>> >
>> > Every animal has some requirement for carbohydrates Phil.
>> >
>>
>> Cats do not require carbohydrate in their diets. Cats convert
>> gluconeogenic amino acids into glucose for the maintenance of blood
>glucose
>> levels - they maintain a *constant* state gluconeogenesis for immediate
>use
>> of glucose.
>>
>> Did you ever get the Cornell Book of Cats like I suggested? Look on page
>79
>> where it says:
>>
>> "Although carbohydrates usually make up about 40 percent of commercial dry
>> cat foods, they are not a dietary necessity for the cat. In fact, cats can
>> be maintained on carbohydrate-free diets in which energy is derived
>> exclusively from noncarbohydrate sources." ...and tell me what it
>> says....;)
>>
>> Phil
>>
>
>Well my version is an older one... and I just read the whole "Feeding"
>section and it didn't say anything about carbohydrate free diets. In the
>comparision of commercial cat foods however, the carbohydrate content always
>outweights the protein content. Now tell me Phil, if cats do not require
>CHO's AT ALL, then why would they even put it in cat foods????
>
>Kelly
>>
As a cheap filler, a bulking agent that is not required by the cats.
D_S.
and the fact me and my sister were lounging around with him
watching a Clockwork orange and it just seemed
like a great name .. which was reinforced when he became addicted
to milk =)
Laku is a cool name!
- D
"CK" <ch...@nic.fi> wrote in message news:3A26831F...@nic.fi...
> I suppose your Moloko has always been a milk-lover, judging by his
> name...
>
> Being a language nut I know that moloko means milk in Russian... :)
>
> Our kitty got his name by his colour - he's totally black-brown and his
> name is Laku, which is licorice in Finnish.
>
> Chris
>
>
> "D_S." wrote:
> >
Martin Goff
writes:
>Compared with omnivorous species, the cat has a high hepatic activity of the
>enzyme serine-pyruvate aminotransferase and low activity of the enzyme
>serine dehydratase. The cat is able to convert the amino acid serine to
>glucose by a route that does not involve either pyruvate or serine
>dehydratase.
(snipped)
'kin 'ell !!! I must remember not to sit with my mouth open when reading posts
like this, as I start to dribble through lack of understanding............
guess I must just be a bit fick !!! (said with a rather dumb english accent, or
it may lose something in the translation LOL).
I read something somewhere once about a cat preferring food warmed up as it
better suits their pallette - can you professor types confirm or deny this for
me please?
Many thanks
Martin
hbfb <(©¿©)>
You mentioned that Innova's phosphorous is high as well. Is that
the canned or just the dry?
What is the optimum level?
I had to take the girls totally off Nutromax, it gave them all
diarrhea:o(
While we are at it, what do you think of Waltham's claim that Sd
is good for both struvite AND oxalate? I can't see how that could
be.
--
hunnybunnyfunnybunny
Phil P. <ph...@maxshouse.com> wrote in message
news:906j0f$rv4$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Frank H Davis Esq.
Martinez) wrote:
>Frank H Davis Esq. <Fr...@evenloade.totalserve.net> wrote:
>>There is zero difference between cheap and premium, it is one big con.
>
>You are sadly mistaken. Cheap foods not only use inferior main ingredients,
>they also change formulas seasonally to keep the price constant.
>
>>True. See my comment above. But tinned food contains far less filler
>>(vegetable matter).
>
>On a dry basis they are very close in composition.
Are they? I see very little vegetable matter in tinned food, I don't
see things like rice and maize listed as main ingredients in tinned
food.
>
>>True, but then look at how bad dry is for the cat in other ways.
>
>Please explain. My cats are perfectly happy and eat dry food at will and wet
>food once a day.
There are so many things wrong with dry food it should carry a
government health warning. If you do a little research I'm sure you
will soon find out for yourself.
>
>>That shows that the gut is digesting it better than dry.
>
>Please explain how smelly poop relates to better digestion.
It shows a more complete digestion.
--
Frank.
High
malabsorption syndromes, the waste is markedly more foul-smelling.
Frank H Davis Esq. <Fr...@evenloade.totalserve.net> wrote in message
news:3a269175...@news.hot-toast.com...
Alley Cat
>
> Impossible (sorry Phil).
Actually Kelly, Phil's absolutely right.
> You don't have to be an expert in feline physiology,
> only in Biology to know that the basis of energy in the
> cell and thus in the body of the cat (and all animals)
> depends on ATP production, which depends ONLY ON glucose.
> And glucose comes from carbohydrates.
Not always.
CATLOPAEDIA - A Complete Guide to Cat Care:
"Food supplies proteins, fats, carbohydrates, minerals, vitamins and
water. With the exception of carbohydrate, all of these are essential
components of the cat's diet...... Carbohydrate is a useful, usually
economical, source of energy in the diet. It is not essential because
the key nutrient it provides, glucose, can be made by the cat from
protein...."
Alley Cat
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Sherry Riddles
>>>(vegetable matter).
>>
Canned food varies wildly, so you really can't generalize. There are cheap
brands I wouldn't feed any cat, and there are the premium brands. What kind of
food are you referring to?
Sherry
Alla Segal
$3000 in vet bills during her first year, everything else is peanuts)
and the two flavors you mention are the ones she refuses anyway.
I didn't know Nutro Max Chicken & Liver comes in 3oz cans. I'll look for
it in the store.
Thanks a million.
Victor M. Martinez
>Are they? I see very little vegetable matter in tinned food, I don't
>see things like rice and maize listed as main ingredients in tinned
>food.
No, water is the main ingredient. Do you understand the concept of "on
a dry basis"?
>There are so many things wrong with dry food it should carry a
>government health warning. If you do a little research I'm sure you
>will soon find out for yourself.
What, no arguments? Please, try a little harder. I've done plenty of
research, including asking several vets. They all say *premium* dry food
provides as good nutrition as *premium* canned food.
>It shows a more complete digestion.
Huh? How about some hint of reasoning behind your conclusion? Just because
you say so doesn't make it so.
Cheers.
--
Victor M. Martinez, Jr. | The University of Texas at Austin
mar...@che.utexas.edu | Department of Chemical Engineering
http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv | Austin, TX 78712
If we knew what we were doing it would not be called research, would it?
Alley Cat
>
> I've done plenty of research, including asking several vets.
> They all say *premium* dry food provides as good nutrition as
> *premium* canned food.
Our vet would agree with you. He would also advise you not to feed dry
food to your cats.
That dry food is nutritionally sound is not something our vet would
contest at all, what worries him (and his partners) is that almost every
cat they see suffering from UT problems is being fed dry food. He
believes that it's inconsequential how nutritionally sound dry food is
if the cat doesn't drink enough water, and you can put a dozen bowls of
water down but you can't force the cat to drink from them. And *that*,
the vets in our practice believe, is the problem. Not the nutritional
content of the food, but the fact that most cats simply don't drink
enough water when eating dry food: hence all the UT problems.
There are now several studies which point conclusively towards there
being a connection between dry food and ideopathic cystitis in cats.
Phil P has, in the past, posted references to most of them. I'd urge
you to take the time to read them.
Alley Cat
hut...@my-deja.com
Dale McD <da...@rtd.com> wrote:
> I've heard a rumour that even a little wet food daily (a spoonful in
the
> morning and a spoonful at night...with dried food the rest of the day
> and night) is bad for a cat's teeth and breath.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thx,
> D.
>
>
I really don't it matters if you feed your cat dry or wet food a cat is
still going to stink and die.
Bob Brenchley.
Martinez) wrote:
>Frank H Davis Esq. <Fr...@evenloade.totalserve.net> wrote:
>>Are they? I see very little vegetable matter in tinned food, I don't
>>see things like rice and maize listed as main ingredients in tinned
>>food.
>
>No, water is the main ingredient. Do you understand the concept of "on
>a dry basis"?
>
>>There are so many things wrong with dry food it should carry a
>>government health warning. If you do a little research I'm sure you
>>will soon find out for yourself.
>
>What, no arguments? Please, try a little harder. I've done plenty of
>research, including asking several vets. They all say *premium* dry food
>provides as good nutrition as *premium* canned food.
A premium dry food is about as good for a cat as a low quality tinned.
Your vet obviously have not made a study of cat nutrition. But even if
they haven't, you would have thought they would have used common sense
and asked themselves "what dry food do cats eat in the wild?"
>
>>It shows a more complete digestion.
>
>Huh? How about some hint of reasoning behind your conclusion? Just because
>you say so doesn't make it so.
>
>Cheers.
--
Bob.
If aliens are smart enough to travel through space, why do they
keep abducting the dumbest people on earth?
Bob Brenchley.
wrote:
It is not so much for their taste, it is all about smell. Warm food is
more aromatic and that is what the cat likes.
Victor M. Martinez
>the vets in our practice believe, is the problem. Not the nutritional
>content of the food, but the fact that most cats simply don't drink
>enough water when eating dry food: hence all the UT problems.
So Phil's reasoning is flawed. It's not the carbos, it's the fact that
some cats might not drink enought water when eating dry food. That makes
more sense.
>Phil P has, in the past, posted references to most of them. I'd urge
>you to take the time to read them.
Unless those references are available on-line, I wouldn't have the time
to go look them up. In any case, I'm not a vet so it would be very hard
for me to determine whether or not the methodologies, assumptions, etc.
in such studies are free of bias. Again, the same data can always be
used to reach very different (sometimes even opposing) conclusions.
Just because a study says x is equal to y, one shouldn't believe it's
absolutely true.
Aren't prescription diets for UT/Kidney problems low in protein and higher
in carbos? Don't proteins put a higher load on kidneys?
Phil P.
> Alley Cat <alle...@virgin.net> wrote:
> >the vets in our practice believe, is the problem. Not the nutritional
> >content of the food, but the fact that most cats simply don't drink
> >enough water when eating dry food: hence all the UT problems.
>
> So Phil's reasoning is flawed. It's not the carbos, it's the fact that
> some cats might not drink enought water when eating dry food. That makes
> more sense.
My reasoning is not flawed, Vic. The water issue is **another** problem
with dry food - in **addition** to carbohydrates.
>
> >Phil P has, in the past, posted references to most of them. I'd urge
> >you to take the time to read them.
>
> Unless those references are available on-line, I wouldn't have the time
> to go look them up.
Don't have the time to research you cat's nutrition? See? I was right!
Lazy.
In any case, I'm not a vet so it would be very hard
> for me to determine whether or not the methodologies, assumptions, etc.
> in such studies are free of bias. Again, the same data can always be
> used to reach very different (sometimes even opposing) conclusions.
> Just because a study says x is equal to y, one shouldn't believe it's
> absolutely true.
When a number a studies say the same thing and **none** oppose them, that's
pretty good evidence that the results are accurate --- *especially* if those
studies are peer-reviewed..... wouldn't you think so, Vic?
> Aren't prescription diets for UT/Kidney problems low in protein and higher
> in carbos? Don't proteins put a higher load on kidneys?
You don't know very much about feline nutrition! Cats require a high-protein
diet because ~20% of their energy is derived from protein.
You would make this disscussion more interesting if you'd do a little
research on your own. I'm getting tired of doing your homework for you.
Phil (I don't mind if you call me "Phil")
Phil P.
> Frank H Davis Esq. <Fr...@evenloade.totalserve.net> wrote:
> >Are they? I see very little vegetable matter in tinned food, I don't
> >see things like rice and maize listed as main ingredients in tinned
> >food.
>
> No, water is the main ingredient.
...and you don't consider water a nutrient? Water is the most important
nutrient cats require! Cats can live for long periods without drinking
water when receiving food containing 67-73% water but become dehydrated when
the water content of the food is 63% or less.
Dry food is ok for dogs because dogs make rapid and voluntary responses to
dehydration and the water content of their food. Cats make less precise and
rapid compensatory changes in voluntary water intake than dogs in response
to changes in the water content of their food. Similarly, their compensatory
drinking response to dehydration due to increased environmental temperature
is less effective than dogs. This weakness of the cat's thirst drive to
respond to changes in its state of hydration can lead to dehydration and
contribute to an array of disorders - FUS and CRF to name two. IOW, for a
cat to drink, she is very close to dehydration. Dehydration results in a
more concentrated urine - Cats already have a relatively high urinary
concentrating capacity inherited, as a means of economizing on water
turnover, from their desert-dwelling ancestors.
Check your cat's last blood test; I'll wager T. Protein, Hb (hemoglobin),
Hematocrit (Hct) or PCV (Packed Cell Volume) are a little in the high-normal
range. (not that I expect you to admit it - but it doesn't matter, at least
you'll know)
Cats are not naturally big drinkers. Cats evolved to obtain most of their
water from their food, not free drinking - an inherited quality from their
desert-dwelling ancestors because water was not always available. Cats in
nature rarely drink. Why do you think canned diets contain >73% moisture?
Its not a random choice. The moisture content of canned food is designed to
approximate the water content of the cat's natural diet - prey. Dry food,
therefore, is *NOT* nutrionally complete! A cat cannot survive entirely on
dry food, but can survive on canned food alone. A technical point, but
still a fact: Dry food is not nutritionally complete and is simply not a
natural food for a cat.
When water is incorporated into the food, the food is digested more easily.
When water is consumed while eating, it dilutes the digestive enzymes making
food harder to digest. Also, satiety is reached sooner from drinking and
from dry food, sometimes, before energy and nutritional needs are met.
Gastric emptying takes significantly longer with dry food protracting the
postprandial alkaline tide -- necessitating further acidification and
increasing food contact time with the linings of the stomach and
intestines - a suspected cause of IBD.
Cats need to eat more dry food (volume) to receive the same nutrients as
canned. Don't be misled by 537 kcal/cup, 40% (214) of those kcals are
carbohydrate! By taking in more volume, cats also take in more phosphorus.
Do you understand the concept of "on
> a dry basis"?
Do you know the difference between "Ingredients" and "Guaranteed Analysis"?
I suppose you think "Ash" is also an ingredient.....
>
> >There are so many things wrong with dry food it should carry a
> >government health warning. If you do a little research I'm sure you
> >will soon find out for yourself.
>
> What, no arguments? Please, try a little harder. I've done plenty of
> research, including asking several vets. They all say *premium* dry food
> provides as good nutrition as *premium* canned food.
False. You need to do more research. Dry food does not provide "as good
nutrition as *premium* canned food". You're forgetting water is the most
important nutrient cats require. Dry food contains ~10% water, cats require
at least 63% - 67-73%. Canned food *ensures* cats are getting sufficient
water. Remember, cats have a weak thirst drive and do not make rapid
compensatory changes in voluntary water intake in response to the water
content of their food.
To say "*premium* dry food provides as good nutrition as *premium* canned
food" is patently false. Dry food simply does not.
>
> >It shows a more complete digestion.
>
> Huh? How about some hint of reasoning behind your conclusion? Just because
> you say so doesn't make it so.
Now you've learned *premium* dry food does *not*provide as good nutrition as
*premium* canned food".
Just curious; why does Innova list Alfalfa Sprouts as carotene and a source
of vitamin A? Cats *cannot* convert carotene into vitamin A and must
receive preformed vitamin A found only in animal tissue and fish oil.
Add insufficient water to excess carbohydrates.... dry food dosn't look as
good as it did when you got into this disscussion, does it, Vic?
I think you need to do considerably more research into your cat's nutrional
requirements and physiology.... That is, of course, if you think your cats
are worth the time..
Phil (you can call me "Phil", I don't mind)