Trying to buy a used car, advice?
Old Prof. Otter
I know that Saturn stick shift cars die between 150K and 180K from
both engine and tranny problems.
I know that Toyotas have to have the timing belt replaced at 75K or
they will have problems. I need to know what those problems sound or
look like.
I would like to know the failure modes of Nissan, Honda, Toyota. and
PT Cruiser.
And for anyone else, this is a good place to note the failure modes of
any other car that you know of.
Sean as Old Prof. Otter.
Jim Hetley
Timing belt failure means a dead car. Depending on the engine design,
as in "interference engine", may mean a complete engine replacement or
rebuild. Just replace the damn belt as regular maintenance . . .
Jim
MajorOz
> On Dec 7, 8:50 am, "Old Prof. Otter" <seanearly...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I am trying to buy a used car.
> > I know that Saturn stick shift cars die between 150K and 180K from
> > both engine and tranny problems.
> > I know that Toyotas have to have the timing belt replaced at 75K or
> > they will have problems. I need to know what those problems sound or
> > look like.
> > I would like to know the failure modes of Nissan, Honda, Toyota. and
> > PT Cruiser.
>
> > And for anyone else, this is a good place to note the failure modes of
> > any other car that you know of.
>
> > Sean as Old Prof. Otter.
>
> Timing belt failure means a dead car.
Or that somebody..........like my ex........let out the clutch after
coasting down a long hill with it pushed in, causing an impulse stress
on the belt that snapped it.
Wouldn't have been so bad, except that she, then, attempted to start
it.....................AAARRGGGHHHHH.......cranking the pistons up and
down while the valves were hanging in the cylinder.
Most problems have many causes. Look around, talk to mechanics, read
Consumer Reports.
If you want to outlive your car's troubles, buy a Honda or Toyota (or
a 90's F-150).
If you want one you can fix yourself, buy a late 60's mustang and a
set of Sears open end wrenches.
Other than that, you pays your money and you takes your choice (and
only a fool buys new vehicles).
cheers
oz, haggling for a 2000 Jag XK8 ragtop
Wes Struebing
<seanea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I am trying to buy a used car.
>I know that Saturn stick shift cars die between 150K and 180K from
>both engine and tranny problems.
>I know that Toyotas have to have the timing belt replaced at 75K or
>they will have problems. I need to know what those problems sound or
>look like.
If the Toyota timing belt is/was anything like the Mazda's, there is
no warning, and nothing to check. Which is why I ALWAYS took my Mazda
in to have its belt (I know they went to belts to save weight, but
sheesh! they should still be chains!) replaced. I owned it for enough
miles to have it replaced twice - which means I went through three
belts (every, IIRC 70,000 miles)
>I would like to know the failure modes of Nissan, Honda, Toyota. and
>PT Cruiser.
>
>And for anyone else, this is a good place to note the failure modes of
>any other car that you know of.
>
Check the Car Guys (cars.com, I think) unless you can find old issues
of "Consumer Reports"
>Sean as Old Prof. Otter.
BOYC to warm yer cockles, Prof?
--
Wes Struebing
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Homepage: www.carpedementem.org
linkedin profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/wesstruebing
Tim Merrigan
wrote:
>On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 05:50:00 -0800 (PST), "Old Prof. Otter"
><seanea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I am trying to buy a used car.
>>I know that Saturn stick shift cars die between 150K and 180K from
>>both engine and tranny problems.
>>I know that Toyotas have to have the timing belt replaced at 75K or
>>they will have problems. I need to know what those problems sound or
>>look like.
>
>If the Toyota timing belt is/was anything like the Mazda's, there is
>no warning, and nothing to check. Which is why I ALWAYS took my Mazda
>in to have its belt (I know they went to belts to save weight, but
>sheesh! they should still be chains!) replaced. I owned it for enough
>miles to have it replaced twice - which means I went through three
>belts (every, IIRC 70,000 miles)
I was in a car once, not mine and I was the passenger, when the timing
chain broke. My first thought was, "who shattered a crystal goblet in
here," because that was what it sounded like as the chain end flopped
around in the cast aluminum casing at 5,000 rpm, shattering it and the
front of the engine block.
>>I would like to know the failure modes of Nissan, Honda, Toyota. and
>>PT Cruiser.
>>
>>And for anyone else, this is a good place to note the failure modes of
>>any other car that you know of.
>>
>Check the Car Guys (cars.com, I think) unless you can find old issues
>of "Consumer Reports"
>
>>Sean as Old Prof. Otter.
>
>BOYC to warm yer cockles, Prof?
>--
>
>Wes Struebing
>I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
>and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples,
>promising liberty and justice for all.
>Homepage: www.carpedementem.org
>linkedin profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/wesstruebing
--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation, from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.
Tim Merrigan
Hanging Jester
ee9c-4a84-aab...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com:
> I know that Toyotas have to have the timing belt replaced at 75K or
> they will have problems. I need to know what those problems sound or
> look like.
I'm not sure who told you that this was a problem with Toyotas, but they
didn't tell you the straight poop. ALL cars with timing belt engines are
prone to timing belt failure as the belt ages, and they should
definately be replaced when the normal maintenance schedule recommends
it. If you live in a desert climate, they need to be replaced sooner
often than in a wetter climate because of dry rot failure.
Toyotas have one of the best reputations on dependability. Nissans are
fairly dependable as are Volvos and Subaru's. Hondas are pretty decent
and affordable. Hundais are in quality about where Hondas were in the
1980's.
I would be very hesitant about buying a Kia simply because they are
still relatively new to the market and cheap, which history tends to
show, usually doesn't bode well as being vehicles with a long lifetime.
Chryslers in general have a bad reputation that is somewhat deserved,
with the possible exception of it's mini-van model's. I haven't really
looked that much into GM or Ford products lately, but they both tend to
have higher reliability than Chrysler, with the exception of older Ford
Taurus (and it's sisters), the Probe and the Focus, all of which I'd
stay away from. I like the Pontiac Grand-Prix and Grand Am. Stay away
from the Oldsmobile Toronado as they tend to suffer from electrical
problems. If against my advice you buy a Chrysler, only consider one
with a DOHC engines.
Other cars to stay away from are BMW's, Mercedes, and Jaguars because
they are too damn expensive to get repaired. The new incarnation of the
VW Bug is another car that tends to be expensive to repair because of
very stupid enginering decisions.
Never buy from the first two production years of a new model or redesign
of an older one. You take a chance with any used car because you often
don't really know how well it was maintained or driven.
~ Jester
Old Prof. Otter
You are missing the point though.
I am not going to experience the car's problems first hand.
i am going to experience the results of the car's problems.
Telling me what to look for when the falure occurs would be close.
But even more, telling me that x brand has a reputation for y kinds of
failure
or all old cars have a good chance of y kind of failure and here is
how to detect
would be good.
OPO
Old Prof. Otter
> "Old Prof. Otter" <seanearly...@hotmail.com> wrote in news:6bd1ae1d-
> ee9c-4a84-aab8-6f6bbcb38...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com:
Actually this is good advice, in the general direction that I was
looking for.
OPO
Jim Hetley
wrote:
Well, in our experience (over six cars, in Maine) the common failure
mode for a Subaru is rust . . .
Jim
PhoenixWench
check out;
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/
--
PhoenixWench
Toleration is not the opposite of intolerance but the counterfeit of it.
Both are despotisms: the one assumes to itself the right of withholding
liberty of conscience, the other of granting it.
-- Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phoenixwench/
http://slywlf.livejournal.com/
http://phoenix-awaken.blogspot.com/
http://www.appletreemotelcatskills.com
MajorOz
> "Old Prof. Otter" <seanearly...@hotmail.com> wrote in news:6bd1ae1d-
> ee9c-4a84-aab8-6f6bbcb38...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com:
.......never is pretty absolute. An obvious exception would be the
'08 Silverado.
>You take a chance with any used car because you often
> don't really know how well it was maintained or driven.
Which is why dog made really great mechanics -- more valuable than a
faithful wife -- to go over a prospective buy.
I trust mine with my money, dog, fly rod, and (post-menopausal) women.
cheers
oz......as long as they "...come home clean".
Barry Gold
As others have noted, Toyotas have an excellent reputation. Just
follow the maintenance schedule religiously.
If you're looking for something old, see if you can find a Dodge Dart.
That slant 6 engine would run _forever_. I eventually sold mine to
Lyndon because the _body_ was wearing out -- the latch on the
left-side door stopped working, and I had to get a replacement from a
junkyard. Then the grooves on the gas cap -- that required paying a
body shop to weld a replacement filler-tube onto the gas tank. I got
tired of this, but it didn't really cost a bunch because all the
replacements came from junkyards at $15-30 a pop.
Lyndon managed to wreck the engine though. He let his brother (who'd
been in a car accident and suffered a head injury) change the oil. He
didn't put the oil pan on right, and running it without oil burnt out
the engine.
--
Barry Gold, webmaster:
Conchord: http://www.conchord.org
Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society, Inc.: http://www.lasfsinc.org
Old Prof. Otter
I bookmarked that, and did find it useful
OPO
Old Prof. Otter
> In article <6bd1ae1d-ee9c-4a84-aab8-6f6bbcb38...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com>,
Last Dodge Dart was made in '75. Modern stuff only goes back to maybe
80.
Thank you, Barry and all for advice.
Sean
Jim Hetley
> In article <6bd1ae1d-ee9c-4a84-aab8-6f6bbcb38...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com>,
We had a '69 Plymouth Valiant -- same-same as a Dart. Ran it until
the frame rusted out and broke. Engine and transmission still
fine . . .
Jim
Old Prof. Otter
> In article <6bd1ae1d-ee9c-4a84-aab8-6f6bbcb38...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com>,
Those old cars are now classics:
http://www.oldride.com/classic_cars/dodge_dart.html
and way out of my price range.
Sean
Old Prof. Otter
>
> We had a '69 Plymouth Valiant -- same-same as a Dart. Ran it until
> the frame rusted out and broke. Engine and transmission still
> fine . . .
>
> Jim
I guess the one hoss shay would be the ideal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-horse_shay
http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/1157/
Sean
David
Funny about that. My sisters tried to run their 1951 Morris Minor
soft-top without oil and were very surprised when it stopped rather
suddenly. They told me they didn't know about checking the oil in
spite of seeing both Dad and myself doing it numerous (millions?) of
times.
--
David
No email replies please.
You will have domestic happiness and faithful friends.
Cindy Wells
> On 09 Dec 2009 01:08:03 GMT, bg...@nyx.net (Barry Gold) typed:
>
>> In article <6bd1ae1d-ee9c-4a84...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com>,
>> Old Prof. Otter <seanea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
>>
>> Lyndon managed to wreck the engine though. He let his brother (who'd
>> been in a car accident and suffered a head injury) change the oil. He
>> didn't put the oil pan on right, and running it without oil burnt out
>> the engine.
>
> Funny about that. My sisters tried to run their 1951 Morris Minor
> soft-top without oil and were very surprised when it stopped rather
> suddenly. They told me they didn't know about checking the oil in
> spite of seeing both Dad and myself doing it numerous (millions?) of
> times.
My dad insisted on having the girls change at least one tire and check
the oil ourselves at least once before we had our licenses. (Of course
the tire change had him rotfl; we were changing the tire on a full size
van.)
Cindy Wells
(my sister actually earned the girl scout Auto Maintenance badge on the
care of that van. I didn't even try.)
The TheatrElf
news:ba3380fc-1623-4d09...@h14g2000pri.googlegroup
s.com:
I second that. Just replace the timing belt first thing, and
that way you know it's been done. Nissan, Honda, and Toyota all
use timing belts, as opposed to chains, so that should be
replaced immediately as failure will kill the engine.
But once you do, you should have a lot of life left in the car; I
know of an Accord that had 250,000 miles on it when it died not
of age, but in a flash flood.
A quick test for a clutch, from Click 'n' Clack: while idling,
engage the parking brake, put one foot on the brake, then put the
car into 5th gear. It should stall out immediately. If it
doesn't, the clutch needs replacing.
--
Xjahn
The TheatrElf
http://manormaniac.blogspot.com/
IF YOU'RE NOT OUTRAGED, YOU'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION
The TheatrElf
news:NKudndU5GpyuMILW...@ckt.net:
When my sister asked to look at her car, which had been running a
little rough, she boasted how dad had taught her to check the
oil, coolant, and air filters. I opened up the air filter, and
pulled it out - black and dripping. She blushed and confessed "I
said I know HOW to do it, I didn't say I actually ever DID it!"
--
Xjahn
The TheatrElf
http://manormaniac.blogspot.com/
All men have the right to dig their own graves, and I have the
right to sell them the shovels.
Cindy Wells
<snip>
> When my sister asked to look at her car, which had been running a
> little rough, she boasted how dad had taught her to check the
> oil, coolant, and air filters. I opened up the air filter, and
> pulled it out - black and dripping. She blushed and confessed "I
> said I know HOW to do it, I didn't say I actually ever DID it!"
>
My father (and sister) would have asked to see the maintenance records
before they opened up the air filter. Then they'd probably say "Do the
filter and oil and/or coolant changes that are due and come back if it
is still a problem."
>
>
Cindy Wells
(for simplicity, for years, we've kept the maintenance log in sequence
with the mileage calculations and it stays in the car.)
Old Prof. Otter
While this discussion can usefully continue, for future reference and
for anyone checking back here,
I did buy a car: a silver Saturn 2002 SL2. Automatic.
I thought that all SL2 were loaded, no, this one only had the engine
upgrade.
Still not bad.
Sean
PhoenixWench
My first new car was a 95 SL2 and I loved it!
--
PhoenixWench
Toleration is not the opposite of intolerance but the counterfeit of it.
Both are despotisms: the one assumes to itself the right of withholding
liberty of conscience, the other of granting it.
-- Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man
http://www.flickr.com/photos/phoenixwench/
Kay Shapero
slySP...@hvc.rr.com says...
> >
> > While this discussion can usefully continue, for future reference and
> > for anyone checking back here,
> > I did buy a car: a silver Saturn 2002 SL2. Automatic.
> > I thought that all SL2 were loaded, no, this one only had the engine
> > upgrade.
> > Still not bad.
> > Sean
> Conga-rats ;-)
> My first new car was a 95 SL2 and I loved it!
>
>
I've got a manual 98 SC2 which I bought new and am still having fun
with.
--
Kay Shapero
address munged, email kay at following domain
http://www.kayshapero.net
Barry Gold
Well, the '66 Dart came about as close to the One Hoss Shay as I've
seen in real life. Lee named hers "Delta" -- a reference to _Brave
New World, because it was squat and brown and made by the Stokanowski
process (mass production).
Michael B
I drive it gently.
Concern is regarding the corporate structure of Saturn, it's
like they've become an orphan.
On Dec 10, 3:29 am, "Old Prof. Otter" <seanearly...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Hanging Jester
24a3-4f96-96f...@z35g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
There is no fool-proof way to detect a worn out timing belt or even
timing chain without dissambly, and most sellers wont let you do that.
There are fairly affordable books that rate used cars and list common
problems experienced with each model. (There is no way that we could
possibly cover and rate various vehicles in a newsgroup format. and
besides, that is what these books are for.)
Just off the top of my head, here is a partial list of main items to
tell you when to walk away from a used car:
Before starting the car, open the radiator cap and oil filler cap. If
there is any visible gray-white colored gook, walk away.
TIP #1 buy a good compression tester and learn how to use it. It is one
of the best tools for examining the engine of a car you are interested
in buying. (And check ALL cylindars.)
ANY braking abnormalities. (Noise when braking, Spongy brakes, If the
pedal continues to sink to the floor, If the car pulls to one side when
braking, If the emergancy brake doesn't work, Excessive force is
required to brake,)
ANY fluid leaks under the car.
Obvious lack of routine maintenance. (Check the oil on the dipstick for
cleanliness and rub the oil between you fingers to see if it is gritty.
Automatic transmission fluid should only be red.)
If there are weird noises try to figure out what it is.
The car pulls to one side while driving (it could be bad front end
alignment, A bad braking system on one side, or even a bent frame.)
Hard starting/deiseling/stalling.
Black, gray, oily smoke from the tailpipe. A very small amount of white
smoke is fairly normal if it is very cold out, but too much points to a
leak in the water jacket or head.
Look for the obvious. If there is a film of rust coating large sections
of the engine compartment, there has been a cooling system failure. (Or
this is a "flood car") If ther is oil all over the comparment, it could
have a bad head or valve cover gasket.
TIP #2 Most warranties are NOT tranferrable to a new owner unless it
specifically says so in the warranty.
I may have missed a few, but I'm sure others can cover them.
~ Jester
Hanging Jester
0cb997...@g26g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:
The "Never" above is a general rule of thumb and there can be rare
exceptions to the rule. I have absolutely nil personal experience with
Silverados, although I thought that they were designed around a pre-
existing (proven) drivetrain.
~ Jester
Hanging Jester
43aa-9d03-7...@v7g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
> <Snip>
>
> Actually this is good advice, in the general direction that I was
> looking for.
> OPO
Glad I could be of help.
~ Jester
Kay Shapero
@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>, baug...@bellsouth.net says...
> My '93 SL-2 is still giving me 34-40 MPG open road, since
> I drive it gently.
> Concern is regarding the corporate structure of Saturn, it's
> like they've become an orphan.
>
Judging by the stuff in the showroom at the dealership where I've taken
my '98 SC2 for maintenance for years they seem to have quit making
things I'd want to drive several years back. I suspect Insulated
Decision Maker Syndrome...
MajorOz
> MajorOz <Majo...@centurytel.net> wrote in news:2d0a3b20-e8c7-46b1-991f-
> 0cb9970a1...@g26g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:
The "08 is a major change, though you are correct in saying that the
Silverado (and the F-150) have years of "traditional" and proven
mechanical concepts.
The US makes such superior and long-lasting pickup trucks, you would
think the concept would translate into at least one or two cars.
[ Suburbans don't count ]
60's mustangs, 70's darts, corvairs (fuck you, Ralph),........where is
their equivalent in today's American cars?
oz, '08 Silverado, '04 Sebring convertible, '94 S-10, '79 MGB, 3-cyl
diesel tractor, riding lawnmower, and assorted weed-whackers,
chainsaws, tillers, and push mowers. [ own Texaco stock, also ]
MargW
chassis. Steering components were the weakness. We had to have the
front end done in the first three months.
We now have a 2005 Vue - our second one (the deja Vue) since we totalled
the first one (the Pre-Vue). Obviously doesn't handle as well as the S,
but it gets good mileage and is quite comfortable.
MargW
Denny Wheeler
<hangin...@cox.net> wrote:
>Toyotas have one of the best reputations on dependability. Nissans are
>fairly dependable as are Volvos and Subaru's. Hondas are pretty decent
>and affordable. Hundais are in quality about where Hondas were in the
>1980's.
>
>I would be very hesitant about buying a Kia simply because they are
>still relatively new to the market and cheap, which history tends to
>show, usually doesn't bode well as being vehicles with a long lifetime
Hyundai has owned Kia for a few years; the Kia Rondo is definitely a
car you can expect to last awhile. Hyundai Elantra (I have one) is
another 'hidden gem'. As is the car Desi owns--Pontiac Vibe. Which
is mechanically a Toyota Matrix. Same plant, same assembly line.
Slightly different coachwork and interior. Same quality. Damn shame
the Vibe went away with Pontiac.
But they made through the '09 year. Well worth considering.
Also Acuras are very sound cars--they're Honda's 'up' line, as Lexus
is for Toyota and Infiniti for Nissan.
IMV--and this is echoed by CR--Mazda is up with Honda and Toyota for
reliability and holding of value. Nissan is a cut below, and Hyundai
is about to pass Nissan, I think.
(no, not really back--but I had to peek in and say something...)
-denny-
Denny Wheeler
<seanea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Thank you for the advice.
>You are missing the point though.
>I am not going to experience the car's problems first hand.
>i am going to experience the results of the car's problems.
>Telling me what to look for when the falure occurs would be close.
>
>But even more, telling me that x brand has a reputation for y kinds of
>failure
>or all old cars have a good chance of y kind of failure and here is
>how to detect
>would be good.
Buy a copy of Consumer Reports Auto Buying Guide--better, subscribe to
CR, at least the online variant. READ. Dig around in Edmunds.com.
Read more.
John W. Vinson
wrote:
>On Dec 7, 8:50�am, "Old Prof. Otter" <seanearly...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I am trying to buy a used car.
>> I know that Saturn stick shift cars die between 150K and 180K from
>> both engine and tranny problems.
>> I know that Toyotas have to have the timing belt replaced at 75K or
>> they will have problems. I need to know what those problems sound or
>> look like.
>> I would like to know the failure modes of Nissan, Honda, Toyota. and
>> PT Cruiser.
>>
>> And for anyone else, this is a good place to note the failure modes of
>> any other car that you know of.
>>
>> Sean as Old Prof. Otter.
>
>Timing belt failure means a dead car. Depending on the engine design,
>as in "interference engine", may mean a complete engine replacement or
>rebuild. Just replace the damn belt as regular maintenance . . .
>
>Jim
I've been lucky then. I had the timing belt go out on my '92 Toyota Camry a
few years ago. Engine just abruptly died; I coasted to a stop, called a tow,
got the belt replaced and was back on the road.
I understand it depends on at which instant in the rotation it fails. It can
also destroy the valves and pistons, so your advice is <ahem> timely.
--
John the Wysard JVinson *at* Wysard Of Info *dot* com
Cindy Wells
<snip>
>
> I've been lucky then. I had the timing belt go out on my '92 Toyota Camry a
> few years ago. Engine just abruptly died; I coasted to a stop, called a tow,
> got the belt replaced and was back on the road.
>
> I understand it depends on at which instant in the rotation it fails. It can
> also destroy the valves and pistons, so your advice is<ahem> timely.
I tend to assume that Murphy's Law will apply on when the timing belt
fails. You got really lucky.
Cindy Wells
Wes Struebing
<den...@NOSPAM.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
>On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:24:32 GMT, Hanging Jester
><hangin...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>Toyotas have one of the best reputations on dependability. Nissans are
>>fairly dependable as are Volvos and Subaru's. Hondas are pretty decent
>>and affordable. Hundais are in quality about where Hondas were in the
>>1980's.
>>
>>I would be very hesitant about buying a Kia simply because they are
>>still relatively new to the market and cheap, which history tends to
>>show, usually doesn't bode well as being vehicles with a long lifetime
>
<snip>
>
>(no, not really back--but I had to peek in and say something...)
>
Welcome "not-back", Denny! Fleas Navy Dog!
--
Wes Struebing
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Homepage: www.carpedementem.org
linkedin profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/wesstruebing
Desideria
wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:38:10 -0800, Denny Wheeler
><den...@NOSPAM.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:24:32 GMT, Hanging Jester
>><hangin...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Toyotas have one of the best reputations on dependability. Nissans are
>>>fairly dependable as are Volvos and Subaru's. Hondas are pretty decent
>>>and affordable. Hundais are in quality about where Hondas were in the
>>>1980's.
>>>
>>>I would be very hesitant about buying a Kia simply because they are
>>>still relatively new to the market and cheap, which history tends to
>>>show, usually doesn't bode well as being vehicles with a long lifetime
>>
><snip>
>>
>>(no, not really back--but I had to peek in and say something...)
>>
>Welcome "not-back", Denny! Fleas Navy Dog!
>--
>
>Wes Struebing
(smile)
Thanks for the great card, Wes!!! :-)
Desideria
Wes Struebing
Glad you enjoyed it! You DID show it to Denny?
{{{Desideria}}}
Desideria
wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:19:43 -0800, Desideria
><deside...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:25:34 -0700, Wes Struebing <str...@comcast.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:38:10 -0800, Denny Wheeler
>>><den...@NOSPAM.zipcon.net.INVALID> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:24:32 GMT, Hanging Jester
>>>><hangin...@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Toyotas have one of the best reputations on dependability. Nissans are
>>>>>fairly dependable as are Volvos and Subaru's. Hondas are pretty decent
>>>>>and affordable. Hundais are in quality about where Hondas were in the
>>>>>1980's.
>>>>>
>>>>>I would be very hesitant about buying a Kia simply because they are
>>>>>still relatively new to the market and cheap, which history tends to
>>>>>show, usually doesn't bode well as being vehicles with a long lifetime
>>>>
>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>(no, not really back--but I had to peek in and say something...)
>>>>
>>>Welcome "not-back", Denny! Fleas Navy Dog!
>>>--
>>>
>>>Wes Struebing
>>
>>(smile)
>>
>>Thanks for the great card, Wes!!! :-)
>>
>Glad you enjoyed it! You DID show it to Denny?
Of course!!! He liked it too.
>
>{{{Desideria}}}
{{{Wes}}}
Desideria