Definition of "monogamy"?
Mean Green Dancing Machine
alt.polyamory about the nature of monogamy. I'd like to hear some
thoughts from people in this newsgroup about what it means to them.
(I'm posting this because I'm annoyed that one of the other people went
to soc.couples for a definition.)
--
--- Aahz (the *other* Dan Bernstein)
@netcom.com
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
Virtual anniversary: 8 days and counting
Michael J M Holmes
>We're having a nice little discussion (read "flamewar" ;-) in
/* sighs. "Flamewars. Y'know, when I first gained net.access
(oh so long ago - like this past August! :-) ) I read as
many newsgroups as I could, as I am sure most beginning lurkers
do. I was so amazed at the nastiness that could occur. People
being righteous over the tiniest points, or slightest differences
in belief, ideas, even vocabulary choices. I was surprised that
so many 'educated' people have this severe 'need to be right' that
they resort to insulting people they don't even know face-to-face.
I guess that's one of the reasons I like this Place so much -
all of you wonderful people who can disagree without being
insulting!"
>alt.polyamory about the nature of monogamy. I'd like to hear some
>thoughts from people in this newsgroup about what it means to them.
The purple one ponders. "Do you mean a 'monogamous relationship'
or a 'monogamous person' or 'monogamy as a philosophy?' There
may be slight differences. I've always thought that a monogamous
relationship was a longish-term relationship between two people
who were not currently involved with anyone else. Monogamy in
general I guess I would believe to be the general societal
definition of 'exclusive partners for life' or, perhaps
a more '90s definition would be 'exclusive partnership until
a breakup, then another exclusive partnership, etc.'"
"I'm not familiar with alt.polyamory, but I guess that
polyamorous people can have more than one 'relationship'
at the same time. But I'd bet that a polyamorous person
could also be in a monogamous relationship, and even
vice-versa. Hmm, to make it clear, a monogamous person
would think that a monogamous (exclusive) relationship
is their ideal, yet could conceivably have a period
of polyamorous relationships before they found their
monogamous relationship. And a polyamorous person
might find a time when there is only one relationship
in their life, therefore it would be a monogamous
relationship. That's why I think the nature of monogamy
depends on whether you are attaching the word to a person,
a relationship, a lifestyle belief, or a philosophy."
/* smiles, a little impishly. "There! I've made my
points clear as mud!"
>(I'm posting this because I'm annoyed that one of the other people went
>to soc.couples for a definition.)
The purple one has a quizzical look one his face.
"soc.couples doesn't seem to be the best place to find a
representative view of monogamy - I'm sure that they have
their own view or bias on the term. But then again, I don't
think any newsgroup is a very good sampling, since all
newsgroups are a smaller subset of the set of people with
net.access!! Statistically skewed things are bound to
happen!"
"Well, Aahz, I don't know if I've helped or hurt your
case, but feel free to use my typically-verbose views!"
>--
> --- Aahz (the *other* Dan Bernstein)
> @netcom.com
>
>Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
>
>Virtual anniversary: 8 days and counting
(Virtual congratulations! Which anniversary is it? The cathode
anniversary? The microchip anniversary? I *never* know what
to get people!!)
--
========================================================================
Mike Holmes mj...@crsa.bu.edu "Happiness Will Prevail!"
Boston University Department of Geography (a truly GREAT place to work!)
========================================================================
Mean Green Dancing Machine
Stef, aka Firecat, aka ProblemOlderWoman, first sent me e-mail on
December 31, 1992. We didn't meet physically for a while after that, so
we're celebrating that day. It's convenient. ;-)
Jason
Dancing Machine) wrote:
>
> We're having a nice little discussion (read "flamewar" ;-) in
> alt.polyamory about the nature of monogamy. I'd like to hear some
> thoughts from people in this newsgroup about what it means to them.
Jason ponders that question. "Well Pegasus (My wife in RL) and I have had
an -exclusively- monogamous relationship the entire nine years plus we've
been married, and for most of the four years we dated before that."
"I'm of a nature to lean towards polyandry myself, but I have chosen a
monogamous life for a number of reasons."
"1. Safer with respect to avoiding venerial diseases. Even before AIDS, I
was hyper-cautious about my partners, because the main medications for
'curing' VD, (Pennicylin and it's derivitives) are thing's I'm deathly
alergic to. If I ever did contract a VD, I'd be in a world of hurt trying
to get rid of it."
"2. My partner, Pegasus, prefers a monogamous lifestyle. She has no
interest to speak of in 'dating' anyone other than me. So it isn't really
'fair' to have exclusive access to her favors, while not granting her the
same consideration. When we first started dating, we had an 'agreement'
that we could see other people. It was very one sided and unfair to her.
The folks we knew that she might want to date didn't want to vex me, and
treated her like we were already married. I never ran into that problem,
although the very few times I tried, nothing lasted since they knew thay
were always stuck being 'number two'. I gave it up as a bad deal early on,
'cause it wasn't worth hurting my primary partner's feelings over."
"3. I made a promise to my partner, nine years back when we were married,
that she had final say over my 'favors'. If she -chose- to 'share me', she
could, at her discretion. If she wanted me to 'share her, I had that same
option. Both cases only IF the other also agreed to the arrangement. We've
considered it once or twice, but never taken that option. No real need to,
as we can each meet any 'real' needs the other has. Save for the somewhat
illusiory benefit of 'variety', and a good imagination can solve that."
Jason
Mary Branscombe
I probably should post this later 'cos I'm a bit shit-faced at the
tail end of an office party but this looks important...
I've always thought of myself as a serial person. Recently, my now-ex
wanted to try "multiple/open" relationships. I sort of tired but it
didn't even get started the way he was thinking of. Life got ahead of
me. It works for him, not me and we're now (very good) friends. I
can't committ to and care about and share my life with more than one
person at once in the same way. How can I go from hugging and getting
serious with one person to hugging and getting serious with another
at the other end of a train journey or a day later and be sure I know
who I'm thinking about? I can't care the same way about two people
and it's nothing to do with symbiosing unhealthily any more...
the best definition I know of love is cynical - caring about some one
else's safety and happiness *almost* as much as your own.
Monogamy is a committment. You can't say "forever" because life and
you and the other changes. You may not always be the same person to
want and give the same things. You can only give the journey as long
as it is, not as long as you or another might want it to. But it's
working and talking and caring and sharing. Think of how the other
person wants things to be as much as you can... Love and care and
remember what hurts them. You say "now - and for as long as I am me
and You are you. Us, together. We." And you fight and work and strive
and *give* to make it carry on working when it gets difficult.
Wonderful as Ignatz is, if I had been in a relationship with
committment, where we were both committed to monogamy, I'd have been
friends with Ignatz. I wouldn't have let myself care that much, or if
I did I wouldn't have done anything or let anything happen. Kind of
glad the way it is of course! Very glad to be happy rather than
hurting. I'm just saying no matter how wonderful possibles are
monogamy is about giving and caring and working, not about easy
options because anything worthwhile requires work and sometimes
sacrifice. You also need to know when things end and when to stop
giving and working but that's relationships as a whole, not just
monogamy.
This is something I have thought about lately. I am monogmaous,
because while sex out of a relationship is fun, sex *in* a
relationship when you are forging something more than just pleasure
and you are building something by getting close by pleasure...
everybody is the centre of their own world... your significant otter
may never be the center of your world but if you bear in mind that
they are the centre of their own world, and get your worlds close
together....
Monogamy is *not the easy option and not everyone works that way -
and damn it it hurts when after eight and a half years you realise
you want different things (hmmm - wouldn't be saying this much if I
wasn't RL drunk but this is *mine to say) - but you choose what you
want. You have a life. Monogamy *doesn't suit anyone. At the basis
you say "don't want anyone more than me - or care enough about me not
to do anything about if you do." Are we all insecure? I think so! ;-)
We all want to be loved and be important and to have *certainties...
Trusting and giving... and relying. Like aerialist or drama exercises
- I trust if I fall you will catch me (but I have a life to sustain
me if you're not there. I am a person in my own right and as such I
share with you). Trust - faith - caring - giving... this is what I
believe
Equally - Polyamory doesn't suit everyone. We're all different - and
maybe closer tha we think. Please don't flame over this because each
pariticpant is only right for themselves. Relatinships and
monogamy/polyamory is maybe the most personal thing there is after
religion. The recent discussions here have taught me how similar,
different and lovable people are, much more than anything about
religion!
Hmmmm - spelling finally dead. Stop before I stop making sense!
You choose what you want - you live your own life - if you're really
lucky you fall in love with someone who thinks the same way and wants
the same stuff - I seem to be lucky this time!
Mary listens to real-life in her office - Genesis live - Hold on my
heart... followed by That's all... other way round guys! Even my tail
can't stand up straight. Carry the pink champagne I'm drinking to the
chalk line
"Igantz! You won't see this for ages! I love you! I found me and then
I found you and thank God it was that way round.
To the years I spent with Clive. To the love we shared. To the love I
gave and received and all the sharing and the growing. To my life and
to yours! We'll be friends... we were lovers. No - other way round -
we were lovers, we are and will be friends. We grow and travel.
Life goes on and if you're lucky you share it. I'm sharing it with
wonderful people.
To life, to sharing, to getting drunk and telling your friends how
you really feel! Never had as many friends as here in the Place.
Completely incoherent! To love! To us! Hey!"
<<<<Crash>>>>
Before I throw *me in the fireplace by mistake!
If I'm more coherent tomorrow I may say something easier to
understand. But tonight my heart is speaking.
A very merry Mary and a MerryTail decorated with bows courtesy of
michael and with .... MISTLETOE! Hey! Happy Christmas! Happy New
Year. Happy *CHOICES*
+-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
| Organisation: Me? You're joking, right? |ma...@cix.compulink.co.uk |
| |ma...@cix.compulink.uucp |
|I know I type "teh" for "the" My fingers have their own accent ;-) |
+-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
Barbara Trumpinski
>We're having a nice little discussion (read "flamewar" ;-) in
>alt.polyamory about the nature of monogamy. I'd like to hear some
>thoughts from people in this newsgroup about what it means to them.
>(I'm posting this because I'm annoyed that one of the other people went
>to soc.couples for a definition.)
>--
kitten jumps in..."well, i think monogamy is like two candles that
fuse into one light...the wax from each candle melts together...till
you have one candle with two wicks...
...conversely, a non-monogamous person lights many flames but
ultimately stands alone."
--
***************************************************************************
conan the librarian a.k.a. kitten /\ /\ barbara ann
"my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=}
~ trum...@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu
"love is the wild card of existance"
rita mae brown
Abner J. Mintz
>> @netcom.com
>>Virtual anniversary: 8 days and counting
/* notes:
>(Virtual congratulations! Which anniversary is it? The cathode
>anniversary? The microchip anniversary? I *never* know what
>to get people!!)
Abner grins. "Why, for a virtual anniversary, you can get them virtually
anything, of course!"
Mean Green Dancing Machine
discuss the *definition* of "monogamy", rather than whether or not they
themselves are monogamous. Kitten and Mike have done a good job so far.
Sean Eustis
>In-Reply-To: <1992Dec23....@netcom.com> aa...@netcom.com (Mean Green Dancing Machine)
post would go through...
>To life, to sharing, to getting drunk and telling your friends how
>you really feel! Never had as many friends as here in the Place.
>Completely incoherent! To love! To us! Hey!"
><<<<Crash>>>>
Dreamweaver seems to stare into another time and place for a little while,
shivers, and gets himself a glass of champange.
"Ouch, you hit a lot of nails right on the head.*sip* Believe it
or not, what you're saying makes a lot of sense and I agree with it.*sip*
Its not that I haven't moved on in my own life, it just felt better when
it was "our" life. To moving on.*gulp*"
Dreamweaver sends the glass to a glorious demise as it joins the shards
already pile in the blaze.
<<<<Crash>>>>
And gives MaryTail a great big HUG.
>But tonight my heart is speaking.
"And a wonderful voice it has."
>A very merry Mary and a MerryTail decorated with bows courtesy of
>michael and with .... MISTLETOE! Hey! Happy Christmas! Happy New
>Year. Happy *CHOICES*
Mistletoe? That means you get a kiss, too!
<<SMOOOCH>>
And a very Happy Cristmas and New Year to you all!
-The Dreamweaver
--
In VR -- The Dreamweaver In RL -- Sean Eustis
sn...@access.digex.com
"God never closed a door without
first opening another."
Lydia Uribe
taking part in the healing ritual for the Didi-Sprite just in time to
hear Aahz say
>We're having a nice little discussion (read "flamewar" ;-) in
>alt.polyamory about the nature of monogamy. I'd like to hear some
>thoughts from people in this newsgroup about what it means to them.
She goes over to the bar and gets an eggnog from Mike before settling
back down at her vocal-score-covered table.
"Monogamy, huh? I guess I'd define it as being committed enough to one
person to want to make a life with that person to the exclusion of
others. Ideally, this would be both physical and emotional -- but I
have found to my great consternation that it is possible to be
physically monogamous while being emotionally polyamorous."
Soprano
"You're more than beginning -- you're learning to fly;
You feel like you're falling, but it passes in time."
"From Me to You", Janis Ian
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Soprano (Lydia M. Uribe) ur...@jarthur.claremont.edu |
| Claremont, CA ur...@hmcvax.claremont.edu |
| Cats, quilts and diving - what more could anyone ask? |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Phyllis Rostykus
>In article <1992Dec23....@netcom.com>, aa...@netcom.com (Mean Green
>Dancing Machine) wrote:
>>
>> We're having a nice little discussion (read "flamewar" ;-) in
>> alt.polyamory about the nature of monogamy. I'd like to hear some
>> thoughts from people in this newsgroup about what it means to them.
>
>Jason ponders that question. "Well Pegasus (My wife in RL) and I have had
>an -exclusively- monogamous relationship the entire nine years plus we've
>been married, and for most of the four years we dated before that."
Liralen listens to Jason's answer and nods. "Yup. Same situation. I've
been married for five years that've been exclusively monogamous. For
the three years before that we were exclusively monogamous for two of
those years. Hmmm..." she grins. "Should have said, 'I was only non-
monogamous for a week. Couldn't take any more than that.' John was
entirely monogamous all eight years. He's entirely built that way, can't
be any other way. And, yes, he knows about the week.
"I'm like Jason in that I'm poly-inclined, but haven't followed those
inclinations partially because I know that John's entirely monogamous in
make up; partially because I promised when we got married; partially
because I am now deeply involved in pherisis donation and blood donation
so I'd be endangering others as well as myself if I ever had intercourse
with anyone; but I'm also finding that, presently, I'm more monogamously
inclined, the more I put into this rather singular relationship.
"There *is* no one I've ever met that fits me as well as John does. No one
who shares as much in belief, who has shared as much history with me, no
one who has *ever* supported me the way that he does, day in and day out,
through my grumpy, depressed, and dark days as well as enjoying me in my
light days. And he seems to feel the same way about me, if not even more
so because of his entirely monogamous makeup.
"For us monogamy has been 'No Intercourse with anyone else' and, as in the
marriage vows, putting the other as first in our lives before all others.
As in anyone that gets emotionally involved with me knows, first thing,
that John's my Number One and his needs come first. That's all there is
to it. Both John and I have deep friendships with folks who happen to be
of opposite sex. I've done entirely sexless S/M play with others, mostly
because John has absolutely no desire for that kind of play. I also fall
in love with people very easily, but that's not a problem with the two
strictures above. I've built a lot of loving relationships with those two
understandings being something I try and communicate first thing.
"So, for us, monogamy doesn't mean that we withold love for others..." she
quirks a grin and then in her breathless, little girl's voice sings:
"Love is something if you give it away,
give it away,
give it away,
Love is something if you give it away,
you end up having more...
"I forget the rest of the lyrics, but there's stuff about it being a magic
penny, and if you lend it, spend it, then soon they'll be rolling all over
the floor. And we do. We find that loving others makes it easier to love
each other, to find more about each other to love, and others' love for us
makes our relationship even easier to support. We know that we can't
provide *all* of each others needs, and with the others we know that the
other will get every need met and be happier for it.
"The sex thing is a hard-drawn line, now, with the pherisis donations, it's
something that's set in stone for me because of the safety factors
involved." Then Liralen grins a touch wryly, "True to form, I am more
worried about the hard to others than to myself..."
"It's funny, in a way. Elf!, who is probably the most notorious of
polyamorous people was the one who pointed out to me just how important it
was to me to *have* a monogamous relationship and showed me that I really
*needed* to put John above all else and work through any feelings that
John had in opposition to anything I might do with S/M. Making my own
inner priorities totally clear. It was the first time I realized that
while I'd thought I'd be happier in a polygamous situation, that I
*actually* was happier with a monogamous situation." She shrugs, "It was
a bit of a surprise to me, but a pleasent one in many ways."
"So, while I'm monogamous, I also love a lot of people."
--
Phyllis Rostykus | "... and how you feel can make it real | - _US_
aka Liralen Li | Real as anything you've seen | Peter
l...@Data-IO.com | Get a life with this dreamer's dream." | Gabriel
Barbara Trumpinski
>Soprano wanders back into the Place from the meadow where she has been
>taking part in the healing ritual for the Didi-Sprite just in time to
>hear Aahz say
>>We're having a nice little discussion (read "flamewar" ;-) in
>>alt.polyamory about the nature of monogamy. I'd like to hear some
>>thoughts from people in this newsgroup about what it means to them.
>She goes over to the bar and gets an eggnog from Mike before settling
>back down at her vocal-score-covered table.
>"Monogamy, huh? I guess I'd define it as being committed enough to one
>person to want to make a life with that person to the exclusion of
>others. Ideally, this would be both physical and emotional -- but I
>have found to my great consternation that it is possible to be
>physically monogamous while being emotionally polyamorous."
"!" kitten agrees wholeheartedly...."soprano....you have described me
to a t!"
Mary Branscombe
This time a sober response! Aahz, I'm afraid you hit a spot with me
and I started another discussion entirely. Glad I did though!
First off, I don't think something this personal is worth flaming
over. Do you like cheese? Do you like Stilton? Really ripe, soft,
cheesey, gungy Stilton? I don't. Some people adore it. It doesn't
hurt me that they eat it, unless we're trying to share a dish. It
doesn't hurt them that I don't eat it, unless we're trying to share a
dish. Attitudes to committment, faithfulness and promises and
intentions are very much like tastes in food, I believe. It only
concerns the person concerned unless it also concerns the person/s
they are getting involved with.
Monogamy, to me, is committment. Choosing the other as your
significant other and agreeing with them to be a pair and partners.
That means that you don't get involved with another as well, on that
same level - which is probably sex and serious long-term emotional
support. Loving on the basis of "you are my significant other, you
are my most important other, my primary relatoinship is with you".
Some of us want/can only have/prefer/.... to have only one, primary
relationship. Some people are happy to have a number of fairly deep
relationships with different people. Some prefer one primary
relationship with some secondary or tertiary or ... (and so on)
relationships that involve some level of sex, emotional committment
and attention.
What you put into a relationship, I think, is energy. Monogamy is
saying that your energy goes mainly, first and in some areas
exclusively to your partner. You choose each other, you choose to be
together and you believe that the nature of your relationship is such
that you want to make that committment and keep some things only for
each other and not share those things with other people.
I really do think that flaming on this sort of subjet is like flaming
on whether you should have pizza or indian food for dinner. Unless
you are eating with teh person concerned, it's up to them to make
their mind up. Discussing the whys and wherefores in a relaxed,
interested, informative, questioning, supportive way - different ball
game, of course.
Try soc.bi for some interesting attitudes to some of this... Can you
summarise the main points of the alt.polyamory discussion to show us
the level of the discussion?
Mary and her sober Tail!
Mean Green Dancing Machine
as being currently involved with two people, yet having a preference for
the monogamous lifestyle. Another person flamed them for using
"monogamous" incorrectly, and the rest is history.
Part of the reason I'm asking here about monogamy is that it really
doesn't make sense to me in some fundamental way: it makes a set of
artificial distinctions that don't apply in Real Life.
Let's start with emotional monogamy. I love my parents, I love my
sister, I love a lot of the people I know from this Place -- in what way
is my love for Stef really any different? Why shouldn't I share a
similar kind of love with many other people? Note that I do recognize
that there's a time-based component to love: you can't really love
someone as *intensely* when you spend less time with them, and the
*quality* of the love also changes.
Physical monogamy makes more sense in a way. Still, hugs and backrubs
are OK :) -- so where do you draw the line? Anything you can do with
clothes on? No intercourse? How do you determine the difference
between a friendly "hello/goodbye" kiss and a romantic one?
--
--- Aahz (the *other* Dan Bernstein)
@netcom.com
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
Virtual anniversary: 7 days and counting
Phyllis Rostykus
>BTW, based on some responses I'm seeing, just wanted to ask that people
>discuss the *definition* of "monogamy", rather than whether or not they
>themselves are monogamous. Kitten and Mike have done a good job so far.
Laughter!! But my definition is *based* on my life. :)
O.K. In short form. Monogamy is 1) No Intercourse with anyone but the
one and 2) making the commitment to put the one other first amoung all
others, emotionally. Mary pointed out a good distinction for that last,
in that the stricture we go by is "Love your neighbor as you love
yourself.", which implies that I love myself *first* and that enables me
to love others. But it *doesn't* mean that we can't love other people,
just that we're first in each others regard.
And, by the by, Elf! has a wife, who he puts first, above all others; and
everyone *knows* that before they get involved with him. So he is very
close to Omaha and plans on sharing the rest of his life with her. But
he's also very polyamorous physically as well as emotionally. Also, I
know a group of three and a group of four who have polygamous marriages,
they all consider themselves married to all the other members in the
group; and I'd imagine that they'd be a group of three or four candles
that decided to merge that way... none of them ever stand alone, and the
commitment is as solid as any I've ever seen in a monogamous marriage.
The communication, though, is insane...
Phyllis Rostykus
>"Monogamy, huh? I guess I'd define it as being committed enough to one
>person to want to make a life with that person to the exclusion of
>others. Ideally, this would be both physical and emotional -- but I
>have found to my great consternation that it is possible to be
>physically monogamous while being emotionally polyamorous."
"Hmm..." says Liralen, "yeah... given that ideal, I could see why you'd be
consternated." She looks a little puzzled, "I'm not sure if you mean it in
a postive sense or a negative sense... but I found that a positive thing
to learn."
"I don't know... I guess the thing is that I've been taught that love is a
good thing. The love of my family and love of my friends and love of
others can only bring more love back to me and makes it easier to love the
one that I have decided to spend the rest of my life with. I prioritize
the time and energy commitment, as in John gets first dibs on me whenever
he needs me; but I am not exclusive about the emotional side of it; and
John and I got together in part because he isn't exclusive about the
emotional side of it either."
Liralen frowns slightly, "Simply to explain why I am the way I am... one
friend of mine was married to a man who was jealous of any man she talked
to and was even jealous of any solid friendship anyone had with her. He
even took it to the point of lying about telephone messages from me, a
couple of times even killing shopping meetings or lunches by never telling
her that I called, or telling her that I *had* set up a date when I
hadn't. He needed to prove to her that no one was as good to her as he
was. He wanted absolute exclusivity emotionally as well as physically and
it drove her to the point where she finally decided she *had* to divorce
him. He broke her arm when she told him that..." she takes a deep breath.
"I know that that isn't the kind of exclusivity you're talking about, and
that you're probably thinking more in terms of degress far less extreme
than the above. But it's experiences like that got me to choose the way I
did, and communicate that very personal need. Mary's absolutely right,
it's a very personal choice and the only way to meet it is to either find
someone that exactly agrees with yours or who agrees with the parts that
are important to you. I mean, I didn't really believe in physical
exclusivity until I found myself just doing it and having no problems with
it and no desire to do anything else; and that was well before our
marriage..."
Phyllis Rostykus
>Okay, the problem in alt.poly started when someone introduced themselves
>as being currently involved with two people, yet having a preference for
>the monogamous lifestyle. Another person flamed them for using
>"monogamous" incorrectly, and the rest is history.
They still do that, do they? The Net is *still* a stickler for usage...
>Let's start with emotional monogamy. I love my parents, I love my
>sister, I love a lot of the people I know from this Place -- in what way
>is my love for Stef really any different? Why shouldn't I share a
>similar kind of love with many other people? Note that I do recognize
>that there's a time-based component to love: you can't really love
>someone as *intensely* when you spend less time with them, and the
>*quality* of the love also changes.
Yup.
So your love for Stef *is* different, if only in the intensity and the
quality of it. Just as my love for John *is* different than my love for
other people simply because he and I spend so very much time and effort
together. He and I have gone through a *lot*.
But I also agree that it's neat to love other people, too. Perhaps they
aren't *quite* as close as your Stef is to you, but it is still some
emotional committment and some emotional energy. Hmmm... I guess I'm not
for absolutely inclusivity anymore than I am for absolute exclusivity. As
in I can't pretend to think that I'll love *EVERYONE* equally, nor do I
say that I can't love anyone but my One-and-only.
Chuckle. Again, extremes/Ideals aren't any good in a real-world situation.
It's a balance.
>Physical monogamy makes more sense in a way. Still, hugs and backrubs
>are OK :) -- so where do you draw the line? Anything you can do with
>clothes on? No intercourse? How do you determine the difference
>between a friendly "hello/goodbye" kiss and a romantic one?
You can tell only when your partner tells you. :) The way John and I
work this is sorta like how Jason and Pegasus work theirs, the other one
sets the limit. As in if John's uncomfortable with anything, I don't do
it. If I'm uncomfortable with anything, he doesn't do it. Just ask.
The crux of the problem may be interrelational communication. How to
communicate what feels bad, what feels O.K., what is *really* needed,
what can be waited on, and what can be done without.
Barbara Trumpinski
>Part of the reason I'm asking here about monogamy is that it really
>doesn't make sense to me in some fundamental way: it makes a set of
>artificial distinctions that don't apply in Real Life.
>Let's start with emotional monogamy. I love my parents, I love my
>sister, I love a lot of the people I know from this Place -- in what way
>is my love for Stef really any different? Why shouldn't I share a
>similar kind of love with many other people? Note that I do recognize
>that there's a time-based component to love: you can't really love
>someone as *intensely* when you spend less time with them, and the
>*quality* of the love also changes.
kitten jumps in again:
"you made the point there...emotional monogamy is saving one
particular kind of emotion for one specific significant other. love
for parents, cats, friends, doesn't figure in at all...
i am not very good at it....i am a 'clinger' to the past...and i still
have emotional connections of deep love with people who don't feel the
same way...it puts a strain on my primary relationship...because t.c.
thinks that this kind of feeling can be diminished by spreading it
around. that is, if you love more than one person deeply, the love is
less for all...in the same way that if you share a chocolate cake
between two people, each gets more than if you share the same cake
with 10 people. LOVE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!"
>Physical monogamy makes more sense in a way. Still, hugs and backrubs
>are OK :) -- so where do you draw the line? Anything you can do with
>clothes on? No intercourse? How do you determine the difference
>between a friendly "hello/goodbye" kiss and a romantic one?
"i've never been any good at this either....because i think that sex
can be a part of friendship (for certain values of friendship) and
other people do not assume this is so.
this is NOT the same thing as being promiscuous.
it is also NOT something that is accepted in my primary
relationship....and compromise is the key to a happy marriage...."
Mean Green Dancing Machine
>aahz:
>
>>Let's start with emotional monogamy. I love my parents, I love my
>>sister, I love a lot of the people I know from this Place -- in what way
>>is my love for Stef really any different? Why shouldn't I share a
>>similar kind of love with many other people? Note that I do recognize
>>that there's a time-based component to love: you can't really love
>>someone as *intensely* when you spend less time with them, and the
>>*quality* of the love also changes.
>
>kitten jumps in again:
>
>"you made the point there...emotional monogamy is saving one
>particular kind of emotion for one specific significant other. love
>for parents, cats, friends, doesn't figure in at all...
I'm not sure whether I'm misunderstanding you, or you're
misunderstanding me. What I'm saying is that, in the end, I really
don't see any *fundamental* difference between my love for Stef and my
love for my parents.
There are unique qualities to my love for Stef -- but I've had similar
kinds of love in the past, and the way I feel about Stef is wildly
different from the others. Are you saying then that I need to decompose
my love to figure out what "kinds" of love I can and can't share?
Barbara Trumpinski
>>aahz:
>>
>>>Let's start with emotional monogamy. I love my parents, I love my
>>>sister, I love a lot of the people I know from this Place -- in what way
>>>is my love for Stef really any different? Why shouldn't I share a
>>>similar kind of love with many other people? Note that I do recognize
>>>that there's a time-based component to love: you can't really love
>>>someone as *intensely* when you spend less time with them, and the
>>>*quality* of the love also changes.
>>
>>kitten jumps in again:
>>
>>"you made the point there...emotional monogamy is saving one
>>particular kind of emotion for one specific significant other. love
>>for parents, cats, friends, doesn't figure in at all...
aahz:
>I'm not sure whether I'm misunderstanding you, or you're
>misunderstanding me. What I'm saying is that, in the end, I really
>don't see any *fundamental* difference between my love for Stef and my
>love for my parents.
>There are unique qualities to my love for Stef -- but I've had similar
>kinds of love in the past, and the way I feel about Stef is wildly
>different from the others. Are you saying then that I need to decompose
>my love to figure out what "kinds" of love I can and can't share?
kitten:
okay....but now i am confused as to what this has to do with monogamy....
any kind of love can be shared....or not.
amanda rothman
at a time. Some feel that this is the only way, while other religions
and cultures state that such a practice is not done. I have read some
stories with marriages of groups of people (i.e. harems), etc. and from
their point of view, it makes sense. It is just a matter of your own
moral standards and those of the culture you were brought up in as to the
choice you make..."
Grinning, Amanda continues, "Oh, and I just have to ask, Aahz... Do you
know anyone by the name of Skeeve?" She prepares a quick defense in case
of an emergency situation...
Yours in Time and Space
Jimmy Malcolm Pierce
>know anyone by the name of Skeeve?" She prepares a quick defense in case
>of an emergency situation...
>
> Yours in Time and Space
"Well, Skeeve was around here awhile back. Haven't seen him recently.
He must be uhm somewhen most likely..." Linda.
--
Jim Pierce Bach. of Sci. in Applied Computer Science USM
jmpi...@whale.st.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard.
Video. Cher: Love and Understanding.
'Rush Limbaugh is the 'Chia Pet' of TV talk shows !'
Rowan Fairgrove
> BTW, based on some responses I'm seeing, just wanted to ask that people
>discuss the *definition* of "monogamy", rather than whether or not they
>themselves are monogamous. Kitten and Mike have done a good job so far.
--
Granted you didn't ask if people were monogamous or not, but the
definitions we have heard have seemed to me to be informed by the
fact that most of the people offering them consider themselves to
be so.
I offered mine in e-mail, but since the topic has caught on, let me
share it with the folx here.
Monogamy is a promise of sexual/emotional (whatever those involved
define as important) fidelity between people in a relationship. The
relationship may have as many people in it as have been agreed upon
by the participants to be a primary relationship.
Some people feel that more than two people cannot have a primary
relationship and we have seen that view reflected here. eg.
kitten sez ..... two candles that fuse into one light ....conversely,
a non-monogamous person lights many flames but ultimately stands
alone. Mary Merrytail sez ...I can't care the same way about two people.
*/ sez .... I've always thought that a monogamous
relationship was a longish-term relationship between two people
who were not currently involved with anyone else.
Polyamorous doesn't necessarily mean promiscuous. It means
loving more than one person at a time. That is certainly possible
in the context of a committed relationship.
Gypsy realizes she is beginning to get heated and the telltail
soapboxes are beginning to appear.
Oh, bloody heck. Sorry to get overwrought, but I see people
denying the possibility of polyamory so very often and I wish
we could recognize that not everyone loves the same way just
as not everyone lives the same way. (I appreciated Mary's
words to this effect as well.)
Gypsy slithers down off the soapboxes and proceeds to the
chalkline.
<To the many paths that bring people to happiness>
***CRASH*****
Gypsy
Rowan Fairgrove
*****************************************
Current Book: The Silent Stars Go By (James White)
Current Music: Waterbearer (Sally Oldfield)
Current Movie: The Crying Game
Current Holiday: Hogmanay
Current Drink: Cocoa with Tuaca & Cognac
Jimmy Malcolm Pierce
>chalkline.
>
><To the many paths that bring people to happiness>
Yes !
>***CRASH*****
>>Crash!<< DJ.
Sean Eustis
><To the many paths that bring people to happiness>
>
>***CRASH*****
>
>Gypsy
>
>Rowan Fairgrove
<<<<Crash>>>>
Mary Branscombe
thanks for the details...
> Okay, the problem in alt.poly started when someone introduced themselves
> as being currently involved with two people, yet having a preference for
> the monogamous lifestyle. Another person flamed them for using
> "monogamous" incorrectly, and the rest is history.
Hmmm. Can I be picky about definitions as well. Express a preference
for does not mean believe in or want to live that way in your current
life. I'd express a prefernce for having lots of money, but I can't
choose to live that way because of external circumstances... you
might *watn to be in a monogmaous relationship but care about somene
who wants to be in a poly relationship... The basis for the flame
sounds shakey to me... still, it's interesting to see teh viewpoints
on this. The main one emerging is "be true to yourself", which is one
of my principles. Along with" try just about anything at least once,
as long as it doesn't hurt you or anyone else".
>
> Part of the reason I'm asking here about monogamy is that it really
> doesn't make sense to me in some fundamental way: it makes a set of
> artificial distinctions that don't apply in Real Life.
>
> Let's start with emotional monogamy. I love my parents, I love my
> sister, I love a lot of the people I know from this Place -- in what way
> is my love for Stef really any different? Why shouldn't I share a
> similar kind of love with many other people? Note that I do recognize
> that there's a time-based component to love: you can't really love
> someone as *intensely* when you spend less time with them, and the
> *quality* of the love also changes.
Do you really *love them all in the same way? Isn't there a
difference between teh way you feel about parents, sisters, close
friends and your significant other (?Stef if I read that para right).
I love my mother and my friends in a platonic, dear friend, way. When
I have a lover, a beloved, a mate - what I feel for them is
different, sometimes more intense - it's a sharing and a giving and a
comitting that goes beyond what I feel for even teh dearest, most
loved friend. It's the emnotional basis for physical monogmay in my
case. Which I define currently as nothing sexual, nothing erotic,
nothing arousing. Non-sexual touching, closeness, backrubs, hugs,
even smooches i feel I can share with anyone I(and they) want to.
Stuff where the *intention is sex/sexual stays within a mongamous
relationship. The difference between a friendly kiss and a
sexy/romantic kiss is again *intention... and desire/what you want to
do.
The line is drawn - where you and your partner and the others
invloved want it to be. Negoatiate on where that is and decide whose
wants, needs and desires come first.
We use the one word" love" for lots of stuff. The gamy in monogamy is
"marriage/union/sex". The "amory" in polyamory (polygamy is deemed a
judgemental word, I am told - suggestions of bigamy?) is
"love/lust/relationship" The latin "amo" I love is much more fuzzy
than the greek terms. Gamy is union/marriage. Eros is sexual love and
desire. There is a difference even between lover and beloved one.
There is also "love" of parents, state, family, friends, stamps and
the like - philia - which means liking, affection, seeing the person,
object or concept as "dear to you".
What about divine love? religious love?
We use the one same term for so many things and debase it even
further - "I just *love* aubergines...". So it's a confused term and
it's better to elaborate. What *exactly do you feel about different
individuals - define that each time and you may find that one time
you use the word love is very different from another time.
Haven't even *broached** the difference between love and lust - but
that's usually much more obvious.
Semantics and etymology - I love it (whoops, didn't even *see that
one coming!)
Mary MerryTail (my tail is clutching a pile of virtual dictionaries
and the like)
+-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
| Ommmmmm, said the lift |ma...@cix.compulink.co.uk |
| Organisation: Me? You're joking, right? |ma...@cix.compulink.uucp |
Mary Branscombe
Gypsy Woman points out about....monogamy, fidelity and a single
committed union... however many people are invloved. That makes a
whole lot of sense to me.
##<To the many paths that bring people to happiness>
Oh, yes!
<<<Crash!!>>>
Clive Grace
The door opens gently and a nose snuffles through the crack made in
the door. First a whisker pops through and then a snout -- it is now
that anyone that has bothered to look in the direction of the door
realises that Clive -- the ex-partner of Mary -- is considering
walking into the room.
"Oh hang it", he mutters to himself and gently walks through. He's a
reddish human sized fox (vulpiform), on hind feet, bushy tail -- he
wears a grey trenchcoat and a brown satchel is strapped around his
shoulder -- (don't ask what's in the satchel), his boots are dirty,
he hasn't groomed himself in nearly eight *weeks* (and for a
vulpiform that's a serious ommission), but he still looks cute. He's
a bit tired and road weary, but there's a hint of a smile around his
jowels. The warmth of the room, the happy (and sometimes not so
happy) sounds of chatter and clinking and crashing of glasses sounds
like a place to be and to rest his wearly head, preferably just above
a jug of tequila, salted rim, no ice, no cherry -- just the way
vulpiforms like their tequila).
He looks over at Mary and Ignatz holding hands in some dark corner and smiles a b
it more, it's a real smile. Not one borne out of pain o
out of being 'strong' or 'macho'. Goodness knows how many times he's tried being lik
e other 'model' men, strong, unemotional, unfeeling. Th
t's in the past now. He *is* emotional (and proud of it), he *is*
feeling and caring and sensitive, he speaks his mind, he has a light
in his brown eyes that is beginning to get brighter. He learned how
to let go of things he no longer needs or wants months ago. He sees
Kateri and his heart flutters, he fights the urge to go over to her
side of the bar and say "hello" -- time of that later. He needs to do
this alone.
"I'll have a Tequila please Mike. Salted rim, no ice, no cherry and... and that'l
l be my 'usual' from now on. The name's Tanais by the w
y" He said looking around the room again, this time from the
proximity of the bar, the blue light casting an eerie glow off of his
reddish mane "...and yes, it *is* one of the rivers that flows past
Troy. Someone in my family was a military strategist and had a sense
of humour..." at this he flashes his white but sharp and delicate
teeth.
Tanais sits at a stool designed (more or less) for his anatomy and looks into the
jug.
"Non monogamy huh? That's an interesting discussuion, and of course everything Ma
ry says is right. It's up to the *individual*, but when
you're *not* an individual -- when you've, for whatever reason,
swallowed your thoughts and beleifs -- your identity in the other
half, then you don't think of behave like an individual, you behave
like a compromise.
"Take, for example my particular beliefs. I'm Bisexual. That means I'm sexually an
d emotionally compatible with both men and women. I'm a
so attracted to other species. Mind you, I'm not attracted to *all*
men and women. I'm *very* selective about whom I sleep with or even
whom I let touch me (please offer a hug before giving them -- even
virtual ones), but something happened in my life that made me realise
that I didn't have a life -- that I was searching for happiness
through someone else's experiences. I didn't voice my opinions and
thoughts... thoughts that were incompatible with our then
relationship because I was too afraid of the consequences of 'letting
go' of the comfort and security of that relationship.
"Two things happened in my life -- roughly about the same time. Firstly, I found
a councellor, someone to whom I could release this stuf
that was forcefully bottled up inside me. Secondly I met a girl in the northlands of
the island where I live; she is... beautiful. She show
d me that I could have a relationship without 'grabbing', without the
frightening feeling of joining with someone and losing one's
identity. Don't get me wrong, I know that a healthy relationship is
based to trust and sharing and not submerging one's 'self' in the
other, but that was over eight years ago, it was my first ever major
relationship. I learned a lot, but I paid a price as well.
"The story is a long one, and I only have my fifteen minutes of fame, so I won't
bore you with the details but I was abused and raped be
ween the ages of six and ten, I dealt with it as only a kid could --
I bottled it up and kept it a secret. That manifested itself in
strange behaviours in later life and now the whole story has been
released I... I guess I don't want secrets any more. *but I don't
want sympathy*", Tanais growled into his jug as he took another gulp.
"I just want to be listened and... and to be *believed*. The times I
tried telling people as a kid and they didn't believe me because I
botched the telling of the story... but that's all in the past now,
that's for other people to hear.
"One thing led to the other -- Mary saw a stranger developing in front of her and
she didn't know how to deal with it or in ways to help
me. I pushed her away so many times because I wasn't sure what I was
turning into.
"I was told that I would be a horrible monster if I told anyone, that if anyone f
ound out, my family would disown me." Tanais started to
laugh bitterly into his jug, now drained of half it's contents.
"Well, I disowned them long ago, in quiet, subtle ways, but I
disowned them for sure. I'm now a stranger in their eyes when I walk
through the door or speak to them over a comm-link"
Tanais took off his trench coat -- resting it on the floor in front of him and ge
ntly placed the satchel on top of the pile. "Now I've s
arted to become more like what I really want to be, who I really am.
I think I'm a nice person... but I'm stranger nonetheless -- even to
myself in many ways. "I went away. I needed to grow, to re-learn
who or what I was. I learned about feelings, about sex without guilt,
I also learned a bit more about love and then I realised I had so
much love in me that it could swamp one person, it nearly did swamp
the girl from the northlands until she said just that, 'I'm being
swamped', so I pulled back, confused and worried that it was
something to do with the abuse. Then I met another girl (again in the
northlands) I was open and honest about my feelings for her and
eventually we *all* became lovers -- but not for long. The second
girl wanted more from her career so she and I drifted apart. Whilst
taking nearly two months off of work, I tried to take my life by an
overdose of quite powerful neuro-drugs (50 tablets of Carbamazepine).
I pulled myself back from the brink without anyone else's help and,
apart from a recent attempt, I realised just prior to opening the
saloon door that I *wanted* to live more than I wanted to die. My
suicide fantasies are over and behind me... for the forseeable future
which, admittedly, is only about a day or so.
"Apart from a brief (but incredibly enjoyable and passionate) encounter recently
with someone across the waters, and with whom I'm proud
to call my friend, I've distanced myself from the north. I want...
no, I *need* to develop friendships. I need friends, I enjoy sex with
friends and lovers and I've now learned how not to grab or to not
feel jealous... But I still need to learn about being held in the
arms of someone without feeling they're going to rape me,
Occasionally I worry that I sometimes have sex in order to say "hey,
I'm a nice fox aren't I?", and often I trash that idea because I
don't enter into these things for purely selfish reasons, I'm also
concerned about the other partner's happiness when we make love or
have sex.
"That is my story, it's not got much to do with Monogamy or Polyamoury I know. I
guess I'm 'spreading my wings' at the moment. I'm being
safe. I've been tested (and found negative) for HIV and other nasties
and I practice safer sex with whoever/whatever I sleep with. I don't
know if what Mary says is completely true. I don't know If I *am*
polyamorous. I do know that I don't want a relationship like I had
before -- but that may all change. I may find a nice fox or vixen
that will want me with no-one else invloved and I will feel the same
for them. If that happens then I will consider it. Perhaps serial
monogamy may work. I dunno.
"One thing's for sure. I'm here now. It's taken three years to join you. but I'm
here. And... and I have a life."
At this, Tanais finishes his jug of Tequila (don't worry, the adult vulpiform met
abolism can handle at least three of these suckers befo
e even 'feeling' drunk). He lifts it in the direction of Mary and
Ignatz and says "to love", he makes a wide arc around the bar "...and
to friendships" and hurls the jug into the fireplace.
--
+-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
| When I grow up, I want to give up being |cli...@cix.compulink.co.uk|
| a Journalist and learn how to write... | |
+-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
| Bisexual knitter of quality and distinction since 1992. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Kateri/Mary Anne
beckons him over for a scritch, a hug, and a drink of whatever he's
having...
"Hey, Mike....one for him....and some real cider for me, okay? Not
this cheapo stuff we usually get in the States."
"And Tanais....welcome to the Place. What took you so long, silly?
Well, I guess you explained that....never mind. At any rate, good
companionship is always available here....and there are some
surprisingly rich friendships to be made. Lots good
people here."
Her half-pint arrives (gotta re-start slow...:-), and Kat drinks it
with the respect it deserves before walking over to the chalk line
with her glass.
"Instead of a toast, here's a poem by Emily Bronte...
'Love is like the wild rose-briar;
Friendship like the holly-tree.
The holly is dark when the rose-briar blooms,
But which will bloom most constantly?'"
The glass arches into the fire with a gentle crash, before Kat turns
and heads back to her bar perch.
--
i thank you God for most this amazing
day: for the leaping greenly spirits of the trees
and a blue true dream of sky; and for everything
which is natural which is infinite which is yes - e.e.cummings
Mary Branscombe
"Hello Tanais - welcome to the Place."
Mary waves a MerryTail at Tanais (and in RL makes a mental note to
lend him some more Spider Robinson books ;-))
"I still have all the bows and paint from Christmas and I haven't
finished getting the mistletoe off of my Tail. Would you like a tail
bow for the New Year Pizza Party?"
Mary MerryTail
Alan Ralph
>In-Reply-To: <memo....@cix.compulink.co.uk> ma...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Mary Branscombe)
>The door opens gently and a nose snuffles through the crack made in
>the door. First a whisker pops through and then a snout -- it is now
>that anyone that has bothered to look in the direction of the door
>realises that Clive -- the ex-partner of Mary -- is considering
>walking into the room.
MonTemplar spots the new arrival, and smiles to himself. This newbie is not so
new to him, firstly because of the mark of CIX, which MonTemplar himself bore
before becoming a member of the Demon Internet posse, and secondly through
reading said newbie's writings in various publications in a previous
incarnations (when A&B Computing still stalked the shelves :-) )
>"Oh hang it", he mutters to himself and gently walks through. He's a
>reddish human sized fox (vulpiform), on hind feet, bushy tail -- he
>wears a grey trenchcoat and a brown satchel is strapped around his
>shoulder -- (don't ask what's in the satchel), his boots are dirty,
>he hasn't groomed himself in nearly eight *weeks* (and for a
>vulpiform that's a serious ommission), but he still looks cute. He's
>a bit tired and road weary, but there's a hint of a smile around his
>jowels. The warmth of the room, the happy (and sometimes not so
>happy) sounds of chatter and clinking and crashing of glasses sounds
>like a place to be and to rest his wearly head, preferably just above
>a jug of tequila, salted rim, no ice, no cherry -- just the way
>vulpiforms like their tequila).
Hmm.... "Vulpis Journalis"? Nah, on second thoughts that smacks too much of the
other sort of journo (oink!)
> "I'll have a Tequila please Mike. Salted rim, no ice, no cherry and... and that'l
>l be my 'usual' from now on. The name's Tanais by the w
>y" He said looking around the room again, this time from the
>proximity of the bar, the blue light casting an eerie glow off of his
>reddish mane "...and yes, it *is* one of the rivers that flows past
>Troy. Someone in my family was a military strategist and had a sense
>of humour..." at this he flashes his white but sharp and delicate
>teeth.
..
[Monogamy discussion and angst]
..
> "One thing's for sure. I'm here now. It's taken three years to join you. but I'm
>here. And... and I have a life."
> At this, Tanais finishes his jug of Tequila (don't worry, the adult vulpiform met
>abolism can handle at least three of these suckers befo
>e even 'feeling' drunk). He lifts it in the direction of Mary and
>Ignatz and says "to love", he makes a wide arc around the bar "...and
>to friendships" and hurls the jug into the fireplace.
MonTemplar steps up to the Bar and doffs his hat to the newcomer. "Welcome to
Callahans, sir Tanais. It's good to see another CIXen in here. My name in here
is Kimberley MonTemplar, a sometime regular visitor to this place."
"Your story was most moving. I hope that coming here and telling it to us has
helped lift some of the darkness. Would you care to join me in a drink?"
MonTemplar orders another Tequila, and a Beamish for himself. Stepping up to
the chalk line, he proclaims.
"To alt.callahans, an island of peace and goodwill in an ocean of chaos and
anarchy"
*CRASH!*
>--
>+-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
>| When I grow up, I want to give up being |cli...@cix.compulink.co.uk|
>| a Journalist and learn how to write... | |
>+-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
>| Bisexual knitter of quality and distinction since 1992. |
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
--
Alan Ralph, AKA Kimberley MonTemplar (when in alt.callahans)
ara...@cix.compulink.co.uk OR mtem...@redunser.demon.co.uk
Cominatcha' c/o Demon Internet Services - Internet for a tenner+VAT a month!
Note: redunser is NOT associated with any other site of demon.co.uk
Mean Green Dancing Machine
>
>thanks for the details...
>> Okay, the problem in alt.poly started when someone introduced themselves
>> as being currently involved with two people, yet having a preference for
>> the monogamous lifestyle. Another person flamed them for using
>> "monogamous" incorrectly, and the rest is history.
>Hmmm. Can I be picky about definitions as well. Express a preference
>for does not mean believe in or want to live that way in your current
>life. I'd express a prefernce for having lots of money, but I can't
>choose to live that way because of external circumstances... you
>might *watn to be in a monogmaous relationship but care about somene
>who wants to be in a poly relationship... The basis for the flame
>sounds shakey to me... still, it's interesting to see teh viewpoints
>on this. The main one emerging is "be true to yourself", which is one
>of my principles. Along with" try just about anything at least once,
>as long as it doesn't hurt you or anyone else".
As I pointed out in alt.poly, the "societal model" of a monogamous
relationship includes the possibility of dating several people
concurrently, as long as none of them is a "serious" relationship.
If, for whatever reasons, a person is unable to "settle down" at the
present time, why should they be labeled as non-monogamous?
>> Let's start with emotional monogamy. I love my parents, I love my
>> sister, I love a lot of the people I know from this Place -- in what way
>> is my love for Stef really any different? Why shouldn't I share a
>> similar kind of love with many other people? Note that I do recognize
>> that there's a time-based component to love: you can't really love
>> someone as *intensely* when you spend less time with them, and the
>> *quality* of the love also changes.
>Do you really *love them all in the same way? Isn't there a
>difference between teh way you feel about parents, sisters, close
>friends and your significant other (?Stef if I read that para right).
>I love my mother and my friends in a platonic, dear friend, way. When
>I have a lover, a beloved, a mate - what I feel for them is
>different, sometimes more intense - it's a sharing and a giving and a
>comitting that goes beyond what I feel for even teh dearest, most
>loved friend. It's the emnotional basis for physical monogmay in my
>case. Which I define currently as nothing sexual, nothing erotic,
>nothing arousing. Non-sexual touching, closeness, backrubs, hugs,
>even smooches i feel I can share with anyone I(and they) want to.
>Stuff where the *intention is sex/sexual stays within a mongamous
>relationship. The difference between a friendly kiss and a
>sexy/romantic kiss is again *intention... and desire/what you want to
>do.
For me, it really doesn't *feel* like a different kind of love. The
love I feel for, say, Liralen and Jilara doesn't have a different
quality that I can detect from what I feel for Stef -- even though I
don't have any romantic interest in them.
--
--- Aahz (the *other* Dan Bernstein)
@netcom.com
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6
Virtual anniversary: 1 day and counting
aa...@atlantis.uucp
[Bulk of Tanais' message deleted, for bandwidth reasons]
: "One thing's for sure. I'm here now. It's taken three years to join you.
: but I'm here. And... and I have a life."
: At this, Tanais finishes his jug of Tequila (don't worry, the adult
: even 'feeling' drunk). He lifts it in the direction of Mary and
: to friendships" and hurls the jug into the fireplace.
"Wench, my glass!" Alfvaen says. kitten brings him a Wildberry Cooler and
Alfvaen downs it and says, "To love and to friendships!". Then he hurls it
into the fireplace on the heels of the tequila jug(I bet you didn't know that
tequila jugs had heels).
"Nice to meet you, Tanais. All of the above is read and noted, and I applaud
you for your courage. Just keep being who you are, even if you don't know
who that is yet. You'll find out eventually, or at least as much as any of us
ever do..."
--
---Alfvaen(Still looking for "October's Baby")
"Give me your mirth. It bores me when you weep. My loves you cannot touch. They're buried deep." ---Don Marquis
Current Album--Talking Heads:True Stories
Current Read--Tesseracts4
Edmund Schweppe
>The door opens gently and a nose snuffles through the crack made in
>the door. First a whisker pops through and then a snout -- it is now
>that anyone that has bothered to look in the direction of the door
>realises that Clive -- the ex-partner of Mary -- is considering
>walking into the room.
[Tanais' tale sacrified to the Bandwidth Demons]
> "One thing's for sure. I'm here now. It's taken three years to join
>you. but I'm here. And... and I have a life."
>
> At this, Tanais finishes his jug of Tequila (don't worry, the adult
>vulpiform metabolism can handle at least three of these suckers before
>even 'feeling' drunk). He lifts it in the direction of Mary and Ignatz and
>says "to love", he makes a wide arc around the bar "...and to friendships"
>and hurls the jug into the fireplace.
<<crash!!>>
"Welcome, new friend!" says Merlinvin. "I feel honored that you shared
your pain and joy with us. Would you like a hug? A backrub? A scritch
behind the ears?"
__________________________________________________________________________
Ed Schweppe o/k/a Merlinvin - schw...@acs.bu.edu,
(or for faster replies) eschweppe%drcoa1...@drcvax.af.mil
All standard disclaimers (also datclaimers and deotherclaimers) apply.
Clive Grace
"A wee scritch behind the ears is most welcome my friend. Ahhhh,
pardon me while I relax" In RL Clive had most of his long brown locks
shorn with electric hair clippers partly because it represented an
"older" Clive, a Clive that -- in the most part -- no longer existed.
The other part was more pragmatic -- the back of the neck now has a
soft Muzzy Fuzzy quality, just like our Tanais here. In Bi circles,
people are more than happy to scritch the back of Clive's neck.
Clive Grace
"I don't think so at the moment -- but thanks". Tanais smiles
gratefully at Mary (and her Merry tail), "I'm still at the mourning
stage -- where we have to feel what we have lost and to feel the fear
and understand our uncertainties for the future? I'll not be a party
pooper either, but what I wrote, took something out of me... telling
people always does... I think I need to feel the loss and then get on
with living.".
Tanais' right ear swivels around to hear a voice speak up, it's the voice of Mon
Templar, it's in his direction, so he turns more of his
body to slowly look. Kateri and Kitten are both skritching each ear
(as they had asked) and a gentle purr begins to rumble from within
Tanais. It's too low for many to hear over the hubub of bar-room
chatter, but it's there.
Clive Grace
That... was just perfect Kateri. Tanais sighs. And the Cider here
*is* good isn't it? As good as London's I'll wager. The next time
you're in London, remind me to take you (and any other Callahanians
with similar tastes) to a pub in London, Holborn. Called "The Sun". I
stopped going there when Mary discovered they watered down the Owd
Roger. But they have an excellent selection of Ciders when I last
looked.
Clive Grace
> MonTemplar spots the new arrival, and smiles to himself. This newbie is not so
> new to him, firstly because of the mark of CIX, which MonTemplar himself bore
> before becoming a member of the Demon Internet posse, and secondly through
> reading said newbie's writings in various publications in a previous
> incarnations (when A&B Computing still stalked the shelves :-) )
Aye, that was many years ago my friend. I've come a long since then,
and you remember my first writing job... Goodness.... I'm Impressed!
But shouldn't that be 'Stacked' the shelves rather than 'Stalked' the
shelves... as in nobody bought the damn thing!
> MonTemplar steps up to the Bar and doffs his hat to the newcomer. "Welcome to
> Callahans, sir Tanais. It's good to see another CIXen in here. My name in here
> is Kimberley MonTemplar, a sometime regular visitor to this place."
Mary... told me about you MonTemplar... and indeed the name that
bears this message rings a bell as well. Thank you.
Mary Branscombe
TITLE: Re: Definition of "monogamy"?
Aahz sez
> As I pointed out in alt.poly, the "societal model" of a monogamous
> relationship includes the possibility of dating several people
> concurrently, as long as none of them is a "serious" relationship.
> If, for whatever reasons, a person is unable to "settle down" at the
> present time, why should they be labeled as non-monogamous?
If none of those are "serious" relationships, then you're not in a
situation where monogamy is relevant, are you? As I think this is
something each person decides for themselves, in each individual
situatioen, if you don't need to worry about it, don't. In that
situation of casually dating several people (nver been there myself,
not really sure how that would work - never really dated *anyone
apart from when I asked Ignatz to the Robin Williamson gig), none of
the relationships are monogamous, *or non-monogamous, are they,
because none of them are relationships on that level. I can't
seperate the idea of monogamy from the idea of faithful, negotiated
committment, at whatever level you decide upon.
Hey, how's *that for a definition. *I like it.
Probably won't fit anyone else... ;-)
Stephen McNamara
door, before walking in.
cli...@cix.compulink.co.uk (Clive Grace) writes:
[...]
> He looks over at Mary and Ignatz holding hands in some dark corner and smiles a b
>it more, it's a real smile. Not one borne out of pain o
> out of being 'strong' or 'macho'. Goodness knows how many times he's tried being lik
>e other 'model' men, strong, unemotional, unfeeling. Th
>t's in the past now. He *is* emotional (and proud of it), he *is*
>feeling and caring and sensitive, he speaks his mind, he has a light
"I never did manage to follow that macho act, though I was made to
suffer for not living up to it quite a few times. I sometimes wonder who
ended up suffering more though."
[...]
> "I'll have a Tequila please Mike. Salted rim, no ice, no cherry and... and that'l
>l be my 'usual' from now on. The name's Tanais by the w
>y"
The brumby blows down his nose in an equine greeting.
[...]
> "Non monogamy huh? That's an interesting discussuion, and of course everything Ma
>ry says is right. It's up to the *individual*, but when
The brumby chuckles softly.
"I stayed out of this discussion, because monogamy probably isn't a
strong enough word for my relationship with Robyn. I'm not really sure why,
but I seem to only really be capable of devoting myself to one person. At
all, as far as I can tell."
> "Take, for example my particular beliefs. I'm Bisexual. That means I'm sexually an
>d emotionally compatible with both men and women. I'm a
>so attracted to other species. Mind you, I'm not attracted to *all*
The brumby flicks one ear forwards, and one back.
[...]
>"I just want to be listened and... and to be *believed*. The times I
>tried telling people as a kid and they didn't believe me because I
>botched the telling of the story... but that's all in the past now,
>that's for other people to hear.
"One thing I have promised to try and do with Jenny is to *listen* to
her. I suppose I am fortunate that nothing particularly bad ever happened
to me during my childhood, but there were things that seemed bad at the
time. For some reason though all the adults around me refused to consider
my experiences as valid as their own. It just gave me the feeling that for
some reason I wasn't good enough to be listened to, that I wasn't really
important. And then when I got older my parents wanted to know why I
wouldn't talk to them, why I never bothered to tell them anything
important. I still have a lot of trouble believing that anyone would want
to listen to me at times."
"I am hoping that I won't do the same thing to Jenny, but I worry that I
will do as I have been told a lot of other people do, and follow my own
parents example."
[...]
> "I was told that I would be a horrible monster if I told anyone, that if anyone f
>ound out, my family would disown me." Tanais started to
>laugh bitterly into his jug, now drained of half it's contents.
>"Well, I disowned them long ago, in quiet, subtle ways, but I
>disowned them for sure. I'm now a stranger in their eyes when I walk
>through the door or speak to them over a comm-link"
"Hey, being disowned by your family isn't always a bad thing. Although
in my case my parents ended up sort of following me, so I get along with
them better now than I have for 15 years. But the rest of the McNamara's
were nailing me into a nice neat box that I couldn't fit into without
giving up a lot of myself. "
The brumby looks across at the counter-clock and realises he is supposed
to be doing other things right now, rather than rambling due to lack of
sleep.
--
The Silver Brumby of bru...@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
the Silicon Plains bru...@zikzak.apana.org.au
The grass is always greener on the other side of the network.
Jimmy Malcolm Pierce
>Clive Grace (cli...@cix.compulink.co.uk) wrote:
>[Bulk of Tanais' message deleted, for bandwidth reasons]
>: "One thing's for sure. I'm here now. It's taken three years to join you.
>: but I'm here. And... and I have a life."
>: At this, Tanais finishes his jug of Tequila (don't worry, the adult
>: vulpiform metabolism can handle at least three of these suckers before
>: even 'feeling' drunk). He lifts it in the direction of Mary and
>: Ignatz and says "to love", he makes a wide arc around the bar "...and
>: to friendships" and hurls the jug into the fireplace.
>
>"Wench, my glass!" Alfvaen says. kitten brings him a Wildberry Cooler and
>Alfvaen downs it and says, "To love and to friendships!". Then he hurls it
>into the fireplace on the heels of the tequila jug(I bet you didn't know that
>tequila jugs had heels).
>
>"Nice to meet you, Tanais. All of the above is read and noted, and I applaud
>you for your courage. Just keep being who you are, even if you don't know
>who that is yet. You'll find out eventually, or at least as much as any of us
>ever do..."
>>Crash!<< DJ, Linda, and Robbie.
Splash!
>"Your story was most moving. I hope that coming here and telling it to us has
>helped lift some of the darkness. Would you care to join me in a drink?"
Splash pipes up from the corner in which he's been lurking for the last
... 2 weeks? (not very well, mind you) "It must be one hell of a drink to
fit the two of you ... if it's big enough, can I join in? My shout.
Welcome Tanais ... I'm one of the Australian contingent, and yes, we are
behind the rest of the world - at least, as far as netnews goes."
--
Splash! *To love is to LIVE!*
(aka Mike van Keulen -- e-mail: keu...@csuvax1.murdoch.edu.au)
Alan Ralph
>Splash pipes up from the corner in which he's been lurking for the last
>fit the two of you ... if it's big enough, can I join in? My shout.
>Welcome Tanais ... I'm one of the Australian contingent, and yes, we are
>behind the rest of the world - at least, as far as netnews goes."
"Ok, you asked for it!"
MonTemplar promptly splashes Splash with the remains of the drink!
"Oi!" shouts Splash!
Nuff said really :-)
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Alan Ralph, 98 Gammons Lane, Watford, Herts. WD2 5HY Tel. (0923) 230097 |
| Internet: mtem...@redunser.demon.co.uk CIX: aralph CI$: 100025,1551 |
| Alias: Kimberley MonTemplar Esq., sometime regular in alt.callahans :-) |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Clive Grace
A skritch will be just fine -- thanks
Splash!
>"Ok, you asked for it!"
>MonTemplar promptly splashes Splash with the remains of the drink!
>"Oi!" shouts Splash!
"Glub!" says Splash. "Aahh, that feels great! It's 36 degrees here
today, with 39 forecast for tomorrow (oh yeah, that's Celcius ... ummmm,
just over a century Fahrenheit)." So saying, he grabs a jug of iced water
and douses MonTemplar with it.
Ed Otto
>mtem...@redunser.demon.co.uk (Alan Ralph) writes:
>>"Ok, you asked for it!"
>>MonTemplar promptly splashes Splash with the remains of the drink!
>>"Oi!" shouts Splash!
>"Glub!" says Splash. "Aahh, that feels great! It's 36 degrees here
>today, with 39 forecast for tomorrow (oh yeah, that's Celcius ... ummmm,
>just over a century Fahrenheit)." So saying, he grabs a jug of iced water
>and douses MonTemplar with it.
Mogonamy - isn't that fine grained dark hardwood they use to make nice furniture
with?
-- Ed
--
Edward C. Otto III * e-o...@uiuc.edu
No one really knows... * edo...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
University of Illinois * Voice: 217/333-9250
Printing Services Office * Fax: 217/244-7277
Alan Ralph
>Mogonamy - isn't that fine grained dark hardwood they use to make nice furniture
>with?
>
> -- Ed
"AAAAAaaaarrrggghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!" :-)
Nice one, Ed!
Edmund Schweppe
>A skritch will be just fine -- thanks
"Then a scritch it will be!" And, suiting the actions to the words,
Merlinvin scritches the soft fur behind Tanais' ears, bringing smiles
to both their faces.