Safe-Sex ....

[Frank McCoy]

... On computers.

Right now, I'm temporarily doing without my usual Anti-Virus software
(Norton) because I'm also temporarily out-of-money.
I only have a virus-scan, not automatic protection.
Too much month left at the end of the money.

*Normally* this wouldn't bother me all that much; as I practice pretty
"safe" practices when it comes to email and stuff on the Net.

Only ... Yesterday I was JUST getting off the phone from legal-people,
checked my email, and found a letter saying that I was supposed to
appear in court; and check the attachment for details.

Yeah, right.
I didn't look closely at the attached file (inside a ZIP file);
expecting it to be the .pdf file it purported to be. About two
seconds AFTER I clicked on it, I felt like kicking myself; because,
sure enough, I'd just activated a Trojan. Ick.

I spent the next few hours trying to delete what I *thought* was the
Trojan, but in actuality was Windows-Update-Agent, which doesn't LIKE
being deleted ... rather like such malicious software often does.

Well, I finally got rid of *most* of the crapola, but not all of it.
However, my "fixes" blew away some previously working things. Again,
I managed to recover most of those, including Windows-Update-Agent;
but not all. Double-Ick.

However, incredibly luckily, I had *JUST* backed-up my *entire system*
the day before!

So ... Last night I spent cleaning the hard-drive and reformatting it.
THEN, today I spent about four hours copying everything BACK from the
backup onto the drive.

Then I stuck in a couple of fixes I'd found while mucking around, like
a Security-Update (KB2686509) that wouldn't. (It turned out that the
update didn't want to run on any computer that had any keys remapped;
and I disabled the "Windows-Key" a long time ago. Easy fix, once you
know what was causing the problem.)

Then I ran a virus-scan, and THIS time it came out clean.
Now everything is running better (and faster because of the implicit
defrag of the drive by doing a copy over a blank drive).

So ... I got caught; but luckily I had the cure right there.

--
_____
/ ' / ™
,-/-, __ __. ____ /_
(_/ / (_(_/|_/ / <_/ <_

[Cindy Wells]

On 1/3/2014 7:44 PM, Frank McCoy wrote:
> ... On computers.
>

I recommend ZoneAlarm Free Firewall and AVG Free Antivirus as reasonable
protection this year on a budget. (Avast! has been a preferred antivirus
but this year it includes the Avast! site checker plug-in. It's a real
drag on a browser.)

Triple-checking the attachments before clicking is still better.

Cindy Wells
(Diagnosing that plugin problem was tough. I happened to install Avast!
when my ISP was having upstream issues that lasted 5 minutes or 4 hours
every few days.)

[Gary Chanson]

At 03 Jan 2014 19:44:20 -0600 Frank McCoy wrote:
> ... On computers.
>
> Right now, I'm temporarily doing without my usual Anti-Virus software
> (Norton) because I'm also temporarily out-of-money.
> I only have a virus-scan, not automatic protection.
> Too much month left at the end of the money.

Install the free version of either Avira
(https://www.avira.com/en/download/product/avira-free-antivirus) or Avast
(http://www.avast.com/index).

- Gary Chanson

[Tesseract]

On 03-Jan-14 5:44 PM, Frank McCoy wrote:
> ... On computers.

Older computers are better, as they are bigger so they provide a larger
base.

If you are running a sufficiently modern version of a Microsoft OS, try
their Security Essentials. Beyond that, a lot of people use Avast and AVG.

--
Tesseract

[Frank McCoy]

Cindy Wells <lcwel...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 1/3/2014 7:44 PM, Frank McCoy wrote:
>> ... On computers.
>>
>
>I recommend ZoneAlarm Free Firewall and AVG Free Antivirus as reasonable
>protection this year on a budget. (Avast! has been a preferred antivirus
>but this year it includes the Avast! site checker plug-in. It's a real
>drag on a browser.)
>
>Triple-checking the attachments before clicking is still better.
>

Yeah, don't I know it!!!!

[Frank McCoy]

>If you are running a sufficiently modern version of a Microsoft OS, try
>their Security Essentials. Beyond that, a lot of people use Avast and AVG.

I've installed that for other people.
Just isn't too friendly with Norton.

[Kevin C]

On Saturday, January 4, 2014 7:01:33 AM UTC-5, Frank McCoy wrote:
> I've installed that for other people.
>
> Just isn't too friendly with Norton.

You really don't want to run more than one active AV at a time. I've used Avast until they ignored e-mails that our company web site was not a phising or malware site as they claimed. Yes, I scanned the files both on the server and prior to upload, and they come out clean, the last with Avast itself. I now use AVG. The only annoyance is periodic AVG promos that pop up at the lower right of the screen, and attempts to sell the pro version.

Not sure if Microsoft's free AV works on XP.

My go-to for malware is Malwarebyte in Safe Mode, Kaspersky's boot CD scanner, and ComboFix. The last is the "big gun," but very effective.

[Cindy Wells]

On 1/4/2014 6:01 AM, Frank McCoy wrote:
> Tesseract <hypertesseractBECA...@verywarm.com> wrote:


<snip>

>> If you are running a sufficiently modern version of a Microsoft OS, try
>> their Security Essentials. Beyond that, a lot of people use Avast and AVG.
>
> I've installed that for other people.
> Just isn't too friendly with Norton.

You do have to uninstall Avast or AVG before reinstalling Norton. Norton
will do the uninstall without a problem, if you pay attention and
respond correctly to your firewall's multiple warnings.

Cindy Wells

[Barry Gold]

On 1/3/2014 5:44 PM, Frank McCoy wrote:
> ... On computers.
>
> Right now, I'm temporarily doing without my usual Anti-Virus software
> (Norton) because I'm also temporarily out-of-money.
> I only have a virus-scan, not automatic protection.
> Too much month left at the end of the money.

If you can't afford Norton, maybe you should consider AVG free.

[Skeezix LaRocca]

On 01/03/2014 08:44 PM, Frank McCoy wrote:

>
> So ... I got caught; but luckily I had the cure right there.
>

All that work, just to stick your hand back in the meat grinder *again*.

If you're not familiar with Linux, talk to someone who is and install it
on your box...You can do it without deleting Windoze.

I'm no geek, by any means, but I have been running Linux for 3 years,
and have *never* looked back.


--
Dr. Skeezix LaRocca, D.B. (Doctor Of Buffoonery)
Registered Linux Novice & Abuser #526706
We aren't cheap, but we're reasonable
No appointment needed

[Gary Chanson]

It's Norton which is not friendly, especially to your computer. The best
thing you can do for any computer is completely remove Norton. The same
advice also goes for McAfee.

- Gary Chanson

[Frank McCoy]

Yeah, but I like Norton Utilities.
They're better than most.
Far better than the crap that comes with Windows.
Normally, if I wanted to install competing Anti-Virus software, I'd
remove Norton completely, install the other AV software, and then
re-install Norton Utilities. That would work.
But, my subscription expired.
So, the Utilities, which don't NEED updating, won't install completely
or up-to-date; and SOME stuff which now works, won't.

Well ... OK ... I'm not SURE about that.

[Frank McCoy]

Skeezix LaRocca <fatl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 01/03/2014 08:44 PM, Frank McCoy wrote:
>
>>
>> So ... I got caught; but luckily I had the cure right there.
>>
>
>All that work, just to stick your hand back in the meat grinder *again*.
>
>If you're not familiar with Linux, talk to someone who is and install it
>on your box...You can do it without deleting Windoze.
>
>I'm no geek, by any means, but I have been running Linux for 3 years,
>and have *never* looked back.

Too many things on the box that NEED Windows.
I been thinking for years about installing Linux on another
hard-drive; but ....

[MajorOz]

On Friday, January 3, 2014 9:42:46 PM UTC-6, Cindy Wells wrote:

> I recommend ZoneAlarm Free Firewall and AVG Free Antivirus as reasonable
>
> protection this year on a budget. (Avast! has been a preferred antivirus
>
> but this year it includes the Avast! site checker plug-in. It's a real
>
> drag on a browser.)

I had a hell of a time trying to uninstall Avast.

My super killer (REVO) couldn't even FIND it.

Had to download an uninstall utility from Avast.

It still left some crap in the registry. Can't figger out how to kill it.

Anyhoo.....got the AVG. Things are faster already.

We'll see....

thanx

[Skeezix LaRocca]

On 01/04/2014 02:45 PM, Frank McCoy wrote:

>
> Too many things on the box that NEED Windows.
> I been thinking for years about installing Linux on another
> hard-drive; but ....
>

You can install Linux on your HD, right alongside Windows if you've got
30-50 gigs to spare..Then you have the option to boot to either OS.

Linux Mint and Linux Ubuntu are very helpful in explaining it all.

[Frank McCoy]

Skeezix LaRocca <fatl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 01/04/2014 02:45 PM, Frank McCoy wrote:
>
>>
>> Too many things on the box that NEED Windows.
>> I been thinking for years about installing Linux on another
>> hard-drive; but ....
>>
>
>You can install Linux on your HD, right alongside Windows if you've got
>30-50 gigs to spare..Then you have the option to boot to either OS.
>
>Linux Mint and Linux Ubuntu are very helpful in explaining it all.

I presume my Microsoft Office wouldn't work on Linux.
I'd probably have to use Open Office ... And I have formatting
problems with that, especially with Word. Open Office just doesn't
properly support some features; despite many people's assurances that
it does.
For example: I TRIED about a dozen suggested ways to get Open Office
to support USPS bar-code; most using special fonts; and none really
worked. Also about half the field-codes Word uses just aren't
recognized properly by Open Office.

So, I've stuck with Word.

[Kevin C]

On Saturday, January 4, 2014 2:56:16 PM UTC-5, MajorOz wrote:
> I had a hell of a time trying to uninstall Avast.

Huh. Didn't have any problems at all. Just ran the uninstall, and didn't have to jump though any special hoops.

[Gary Chanson]

You might be surprised at how much of them can be run on Linux.

- Gary Chanson

[Gary Chanson]

25 years ago, Norton Utilities were indispensable, but that was when the
name "Norton" still meant something. In more recent years, there have been
substantially better tools availble which work far better, mostly for free.
What do you still find useful?

> They're better than most.
> Far better than the crap that comes with Windows.
> Normally, if I wanted to install competing Anti-Virus software, I'd
> remove Norton completely, install the other AV software, and then
> re-install Norton Utilities. That would work.
> But, my subscription expired.
> So, the Utilities, which don't NEED updating, won't install completely
> or up-to-date; and SOME stuff which now works, won't.
>
> Well ... OK ... I'm not SURE about that.

Your machine will run substantially faster and will be more stable with
Norton removed.

- Gary Chanson

[Gary Chanson]

Actually, I have run MS Office (one of the older versions) in Linux.

- Gary Chanson

[Barry Gold]

On 1/4/2014 4:53 PM, Frank McCoy wrote:
> I presume my Microsoft Office wouldn't work on Linux.

There is (or used to be) a package you could install on Linux called
"WINE" (Recursive acronym: Wine Is Not an Emulator). It's supposed to
run most Windows apps.

[Frank McCoy]

Their cleanup.
Their shredder. (I have several. Some don't work worth crap.)
Their defrag (SpeedDisk) utility
Their fixing of registration problems.

>> They're better than most.
>> Far better than the crap that comes with Windows.
>> Normally, if I wanted to install competing Anti-Virus software, I'd
>> remove Norton completely, install the other AV software, and then
>> re-install Norton Utilities. That would work.
>> But, my subscription expired.
>> So, the Utilities, which don't NEED updating, won't install completely
>> or up-to-date; and SOME stuff which now works, won't.
>>
>> Well ... OK ... I'm not SURE about that.
>
>Your machine will run substantially faster and will be more stable with
>Norton removed.
>

It runs fast and stable NOW.
Didn't with the Trojan in it.
Redoing the drive made me realize it had been a LONG time since I
defragged it. Should do that more often.

The things that really slow down the system are search-utilities.
It seems that about half or more of the software you install has their
own speedup-search thingy in it; and they ALL slow down everything
else! Sometimes I've found up to FOUR such crappy things running at
once. Every so often I have to go and look at what's running on the
system ... and about every other time I do I find some idiot
speed-search utility running in the background.

It's bad enough with the crap Micro$hit puts in there; but it seems
every program that handles music puts something in that you don't want
and have to disable; from Adobe to Roxio to Quicktime to any and all
suppliers of decoders.

I'm SO tired of "helper files" and programs I could ....
And, of course, they don't ASK you if you want that shit installed.
They put it in, even if you just ask for the codec alone. ;-{

I've got about 10 services that load ... and about fifty that are
disabled FROM loading. Amazing.

If nothing else, every program you buy or install has a utility that
checks about 50 times per-hour to see if you need to update it! And,
also of course, not a one of them has an option to leave it out or
disable it! So, I have to do that manually with my Startup Manager.

Gripe, gripe, gripe. ;-}

[Don Bruder]

In article <52c83e79$0$9154$c3e8da3$9f40...@news.astraweb.com>,

Skeezix LaRocca <fatl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 01/03/2014 08:44 PM, Frank McCoy wrote:
>
> >
> > So ... I got caught; but luckily I had the cure right there.
> >
>
> All that work, just to stick your hand back in the meat grinder *again*.
>
> If you're not familiar with Linux, talk to someone who is and install it
> on your box...You can do it without deleting Windoze.
>
> I'm no geek, by any means, but I have been running Linux for 3 years,
> and have *never* looked back.

*nix is good. My personal preference is the MacOS X distro :)

--
Security provided by Mssrs Smith and/or Wesson. Brought to you by the letter Q

[Don Bruder]

In article <ovidnVQfvpVhXVXP...@supernews.com>,

I was on the verge of posting a reply (had it all lined up and ready top
pull the trigger, in fact) saying almost exactly that when I decided to
"next" on down the thread before actually posting. So I won't now :)

Unfortunately, it has to be close to fifteen years since I heard anybody
above the "very occasional user" level say anything good about anything
bearing the "Norton" name.

[Don Bruder]

In article <adkhc9te2hct6p93h...@4ax.com>,

Frank McCoy <mcc...@millcomm.com> wrote:

> If nothing else, every program you buy or install has a utility that
> checks about 50 times per-hour to see if you need to update it! And,
> also of course, not a one of them has an option to leave it out or
> disable it! So, I have to do that manually with my Startup Manager.
>
> Gripe, gripe, gripe. ;-}

Hey Frank - Shuddup your bitching about how bad Windows/Microshaft is
(Everybody already knows the only thing that Microsoft could make that
wouldn't suck would be a vacuum cleaner!) and come on over the the Mac
side of the force. Over here, things "Just Work(TM)" :)

[Gary Chanson]

I could suggest better programs for each (except the last which I would
strongly suggest to NEVER use - from any source).

Never install any of the "free extras" that come with any program. They
are free and worth every penney of it (actually far worse). And then,
after installing disable anything they install which runs at start-up
(notify icons, upgrade reminders, fast starter, etc.) and some may be hard
to find (I can recommend some tools for that, too). Disabling new services
is more complex...

- Gary Chanson

[Gary Chanson]

And it does. Even Photoshop!

- Gary Chanson

[Kevin C]

On Saturday, January 4, 2014 10:56:19 PM UTC-5, Don Bruder wrote:
> *nix is good. My personal preference is the MacOS X distro :)

My problem with Apple is:

1. Price.
2. Requiring the transition to said pricey hardware.

The advantage of Linux is that you can run it on your existing hardware, and these days try it out from a CD/DVD or thumbdrive without installing it on your system.

[Kevin C]

On Saturday, January 4, 2014 11:08:48 PM UTC-5, Don Bruder wrote:
> Unfortunately, it has to be close to fifteen years since I heard anybody
>
> above the "very occasional user" level say anything good about anything
>
> bearing the "Norton" name.

Norton's Utilities used to be very good in the DOS era and even the Windows 95/98 era. But the last our company bought was in 2002, and IMHO it hasn't been worth it since. Some of it are the added features in Windows, but some features, like file recovery and examining your disk sector by sector, are gone.

[MajorOz]

On Sunday, January 5, 2014 7:08:08 AM UTC-6, Kevin C wrote:
> On Saturday, January 4, 2014 10:56:19 PM UTC-5, Don Bruder wrote:
>
> > *nix is good. My personal preference is the MacOS X distro :)
>
>
>
> My problem with Apple is:

The arrogant bastards are closed system.

I NEVER buy anything that is closed system, from anyone, for any purpose.

[Jette Goldie]

Agreed. IME both have a habit of deciding legitimate programs are
viruses, while gaily letting real viruses through.

ZoneAlarm now provide both a free firewall and a free anti-virus in one.
(you can pay for it, if you're using your pc for business purposes)
I've been using it now for two years without a problem - zero
infections. Hubby was using Norton when he got that "fake AV trojan"
last year. When I scanned his computer later I found at least 9 nasties
that Norton had missed.




--
Jette Goldie
jgold...@btinternet.com

Living in the Future!

[Frank McCoy]

Well, not if there's any even halfway reasonable alternative.

[FreyjaW]

I'm going to install Trend Micro. Got a thumb drive with 7 licenses so
I can cover Chris' new laptop as well as his his work naptop (the cats
like to try to sleep on it).

--
Freyja the NurseWench
http://freyjaw.dreamwidth.org
Twitter: @FreyjaRN
"I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how
to use my telephone."
-Bjarne Stroustrup

[Skeezix LaRocca]

On 01/04/2014 11:13 PM, Don Bruder wrote:

>
> Hey Frank - Shuddup your bitching about how bad Windows/Microshaft is
> (Everybody already knows the only thing that Microsoft could make that
> wouldn't suck would be a vacuum cleaner!) and come on over the the Mac
> side of the force. Over here, things "Just Work(TM)" :)
>

To each his own, but as far as this bonehead is concerned you can take
M$ & Ram'em In The Ass Apple and take all of the BS maintenance that it
takes to keep a M$ box running with all the anti virus / spyware
updates, not to mention the time consuming defrags, then if you do find
freeware, it's usually buggy, or just nagware.

Don't even get me going on Apple...Sure, their stuff may run well, but
price a Mac out...No thank you...It's like paying $10.00 for a Snickers
Bar...I could prolly afford it, but I just don't think I'm going to do it.

With Linux...No problem with virus / spyware, and all of my software is
free and let me tell you, it is far superior software than any freeware
that is out there for Windows, and better than most paid for software,

Granted, there is some software like Photoshop that is more detailed and
high end, but 90% of the people that use it can get by just fine with
GIMP (there is also a free Windows version)

The big stopping block for most is Microsoft Office...Most people can
get by just fine with Libre Office or Open Office (also free Windows
versions), unless what you are doing relies on complex macros...M$ just
has everybody bullshitted that they must have Office.

I have been running the same version of Linux Mint for 3 years, and it
has not slowed down one bit...No reload...No defrag crap...Just as fast
as day one...Try doing that with Windows.

Thank Gawd, I'm free...I'm free at last.

[Alan Ralph]

On 10/01/2014 00:12, Skeezix LaRocca wrote:
> To each his own, but as far as this bonehead is concerned you can take
> M$ & Ram'em In The Ass Apple and take all of the BS maintenance that it
> takes to keep a M$ box running with all the anti virus / spyware
> updates, not to mention the time consuming defrags, then if you do find
> freeware, it's usually buggy, or just nagware.

What was the last version of Windows that you used? Those complaints
might have had some weight back in the Windows 9x days, even up to XP -
but after the hickup that was Vista, I've found Windows 7 to require
very little in the way of maintenance. (Windows 8 is another matter, I
tried it but went back to 7 because of annoyance at the new-fangled
Modern UI).

> Don't even get me going on Apple...Sure, their stuff may run well, but
> price a Mac out...No thank you...It's like paying $10.00 for a Snickers
> Bar...I could prolly afford it, but I just don't think I'm going to do it.

I got an iMac in 2012 after suffering two different PCs failing on me in
the space of just over a year. It helps that I've used Macs
professionally for many year now, so was used to OS X. They're not
cheap, to be sure, but they are built *really* well, and I had very
little problem getting my existing software running on it, particularly
so with Parallels Desktop running Windows 7 for when I need Windows
apps. I'm planning on making this beast last me at least 5 years!

> With Linux...No problem with virus / spyware, and all of my software is
> free and let me tell you, it is far superior software than any freeware
> that is out there for Windows, and better than most paid for software,
>
> Granted, there is some software like Photoshop that is more detailed and
> high end, but 90% of the people that use it can get by just fine with
> GIMP (there is also a free Windows version)

Ironically, a lot of the software I rely on is Free / Open Source, in
fact it travelled with me from Windows to OS X.

> The big stopping block for most is Microsoft Office...Most people can
> get by just fine with Libre Office or Open Office (also free Windows
> versions), unless what you are doing relies on complex macros...M$ just
> has everybody bullshitted that they must have Office.

I'll admit, the only reason I keep a copy of Microsoft Office here is
because some organisations *still* send out stuff as Word, Excel or
Powerpoint documents. *shrug*

> I have been running the same version of Linux Mint for 3 years, and it
> has not slowed down one bit...No reload...No defrag crap...Just as fast
> as day one...Try doing that with Windows.
>
> Thank Gawd, I'm free...I'm free at last.

YMMV. It's great to have choices, at least. :)

[Skeezix LaRocca]

On 01/10/2014 06:53 AM, Alan Ralph wrote:

>
> What was the last version of Windows that you used? Those complaints
> might have had some weight back in the Windows 9x days, even up to XP -
> but after the hickup that was Vista, I've found Windows 7 to require
> very little in the way of maintenance. (Windows 8 is another matter, I
> tried it but went back to 7 because of annoyance at the new-fangled
> Modern UI).

I have a copy of Win7 on my desktop and never boot into it because after
a few months it bogged down, despite all kinds of virus / malware
checks, and yes, defrag.

>
> I got an iMac in 2012 after suffering two different PCs failing on me in
> the space of just over a year. It helps that I've used Macs
> professionally for many year now, so was used to OS X. They're not
> cheap, to be sure, but they are built *really* well, and I had very
> little problem getting my existing software running on it, particularly
> so with Parallels Desktop running Windows 7 for when I need Windows
> apps. I'm planning on making this beast last me at least 5 years!

My desktop was purchased at a local computer builder..Vista had just
come out one month prior, but I told them to load XP on it...I then
later installed Win7..When it slowed down I switched to Linux...Like I
said earlier, 3 years on the original Linux install and no slow down at all.

>
>> The big stopping block for most is Microsoft Office...Most people can
>> get by just fine with Libre Office or Open Office (also free Windows
>> versions), unless what you are doing relies on complex macros...M$ just
>> has everybody bullshitted that they must have Office.
>
> I'll admit, the only reason I keep a copy of Microsoft Office here is
> because some organisations *still* send out stuff as Word, Excel or
> Powerpoint documents. *shrug*

It is annoying...With each new version of Office, by default, when you
send most things out, the recipient has to continually upgrade....Many
times, people could remedy that by sending the stuff out in the .rtf
format

[Alan Ralph]

On 10/01/2014 13:55, Skeezix LaRocca wrote:
> On 01/10/2014 06:53 AM, Alan Ralph wrote:
>
>>
>> What was the last version of Windows that you used? Those complaints
>> might have had some weight back in the Windows 9x days, even up to XP -
>> but after the hickup that was Vista, I've found Windows 7 to require
>> very little in the way of maintenance. (Windows 8 is another matter, I
>> tried it but went back to 7 because of annoyance at the new-fangled
>> Modern UI).
>
> I have a copy of Win7 on my desktop and never boot into it because after
> a few months it bogged down, despite all kinds of virus / malware
> checks, and yes, defrag.

I'm sorry, but I have to suspect this is / was a self-inflicted injury.
My parents have been using their current computer for three years now,
with minimal help on my part other than occasionally checking their
anti-virus, security updates and backups are all OK. They are
non-technical users, but their machine has not gotten bogged down in all
that time, in spite of regular use for browsing, email, document editing
and games.

>> I got an iMac in 2012 after suffering two different PCs failing on me in
>> the space of just over a year. It helps that I've used Macs
>> professionally for many year now, so was used to OS X. They're not
>> cheap, to be sure, but they are built *really* well, and I had very
>> little problem getting my existing software running on it, particularly
>> so with Parallels Desktop running Windows 7 for when I need Windows
>> apps. I'm planning on making this beast last me at least 5 years!
>
> My desktop was purchased at a local computer builder..Vista had just
> come out one month prior, but I told them to load XP on it...I then
> later installed Win7..When it slowed down I switched to Linux...Like I
> said earlier, 3 years on the original Linux install and no slow down at
> all.

I'm happy that you got a good, well-built PC. Sadly, my experience with
PC makers lately has been that quality control gets skimped in the quest
to hold onto profit margins. :(

>>> The big stopping block for most is Microsoft Office...Most people can
>>> get by just fine with Libre Office or Open Office (also free Windows
>>> versions), unless what you are doing relies on complex macros...M$ just
>>> has everybody bullshitted that they must have Office.
>>
>> I'll admit, the only reason I keep a copy of Microsoft Office here is
>> because some organisations *still* send out stuff as Word, Excel or
>> Powerpoint documents. *shrug*
>
> It is annoying...With each new version of Office, by default, when you
> send most things out, the recipient has to continually upgrade....Many
> times, people could remedy that by sending the stuff out in the .rtf format

To give Microsoft some credit, they have at least stopped tinkering
around with their document formats since the 2007 version, and have made
efforts to allow older versions of Office to open documents created in
newer versions. But that was because they pretty much *had* to, due to
resistance from customers to the new UI. Personally, I'm *very* happy
that Office 2011 for Mac still has the old-style menu bar, to preserve
my sanity. I'll be interested to see what happens if / when they release
a version of Office specifically for Windows 8's Modern UI... ;)

[Tesseract]

They haven't yet? I thought Office was supposed to be part of Win8, and
it being a touch system, I would expect the version of Office to be
touch optimized. But, not being an owner, my experience is just what I
played with in the stores.

--
Tesseract

[Frank McCoy]

A. Micro$haft got in trouble a few years ago for "bundling" Internet
Explorer into the OS. They had to take it out and separate the two.
Same thing probably applies with Office.
B. Do you REALLY think M$ won't grab the chance to charge EXTRA for a
version "optimized" to run really terribly on Win-8?

[Gary Chanson]

What they've been doing for the past few versions of Windows is shipping it
with a demo version of Office installed. The user can either buy a license
for that version (the Home version) or install one of the full versions.

- Gary Chanson

[Alan Ralph]

They do include demo versions of the three main Office 2013 apps (Word,
Excel, PowerPoint) with tablet / convertible devices running Windows RT.
However - and confusingly - these apps run on the Desktop rather than
the Modern UI.