TOAST: Water on the Moon
ka.mi...@gmail.com
course and being free to have more
potent potables, a glass of water seems
appropriate for this toast.
Link is to CBC report about LCROSS
analysis:
http://tinyurl.com/yl8pcre
To finding water on the Moon!
< < < CRASH > > >
Magus Firecow.
Tom the Alien Cat
wrote:
I hope this will be remembered as an important day!
<<<<< CRASH >>>>>
tom tac
Margo
Strangely appropriate from Celine Dionne:
"Do I gotta turn the sand into the sea
Is that what you want from me
I've done everything that I can do
But get water from the moon"
>>>>>>>>>>Crassshhhh!!!<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Margo
Wes Struebing
Time to build Clavius Base. Sir Arthur, you were right to place your
base where you did!
(Clavius Crater is close to the crater Cabeus, where LCROSS hit)
--
Wes Struebing
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Homepage: www.carpedementem.org
linkedin profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/wesstruebing
David
Robert Heinlein thought there would be water on the moon as evinced by
many of his books. Now he has been vindicated.
<<<<<CRASH>>>>>
--
David
No email replies please.
You have a truly strong individuality.
MajorOz
> On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 11:30:59 -0800 (PST), "ka.ming....@gmail.com"
> <ka.ming....@gmail.com> typed:
>
> >Well, despite having run my antibiotics
> >course and being free to have more
> >potent potables, a glass of water seems
> >appropriate for this toast.
>
> >Link is to CBC report about LCROSS
> >analysis:
> >http://tinyurl.com/yl8pcre
>
> >To finding water on the Moon!
>
> >< < < CRASH > > >
>
> Robert Heinlein thought there would be water on the moon as evinced by
> many of his books. Now he has been vindicated.
In fact, Mannie (_The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress_), although a computer
weenie, came from a family of ice miners.
cheers
oz
Marten Kemp
Cool in the extreme!
* * * CRASH * * *
However, the teevee personages say that the water
could "be broken down into Hydrogen for fuel and
Oxygen for breathing." I think they flunked high-
school chemistry because, as far as I know, using
Hydrogen for fuel would require an oxidizer of
some kind. Like, for instance, Oxygen.
--
-- Marten Kemp (Fix ISP to reply)
You can't help being ignorant 'cause there's always
something you don't know; what you can't be is stupid.
John W. Vinson
wrote:
>Marten Kemp <marte...@thisplanet-link.net> wrote:
>
>>However, the teevee personages say that the water
>>could "be broken down into Hydrogen for fuel and
>>Oxygen for breathing."
>
>A local anchor here once referred to a NASA probe taking pictures of
>Jupiter's moon "Ten!"
Ay! Oh!
--
John the Wysard JVinson *at* Wysard Of Info *dot* com
Margo
> Marten Kemp <marten.k...@thisplanet-link.net> wrote:
> >However, the teevee personages say that the water
> >could "be broken down into Hydrogen for fuel and
> >Oxygen for breathing."
>
> Jupiter's moon "Ten!"
>
> Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G
Sort of like Frank Herbert's "Ixians"...
Marten Kemp
> On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:10:57 -0500, Marten Kemp
> <marte...@thisplanet-link.net> wrote:
>
>> ka.mi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Well, despite having run my antibiotics
>>> course and being free to have more
>>> potent potables, a glass of water seems
>>> appropriate for this toast.
>>>
>>> Link is to CBC report about LCROSS
>>> analysis:
>>> http://tinyurl.com/yl8pcre
>>>
>>> To finding water on the Moon!
>>>
>>> < < < CRASH > > >
>> Cool in the extreme!
>>
>> * * * CRASH * * *
>>
>> However, the teevee personages say that the water
>> could "be broken down into Hydrogen for fuel and
>> Oxygen for breathing." I think they flunked high-
>> school chemistry because, as far as I know, using
>> Hydrogen for fuel would require an oxidizer of
>> some kind. Like, for instance, Oxygen.
>
> This might surprise you, but the water on the Earth is used for both.
> It cycles through the lifeforms, going from wetstuff to sugars and
> back then it gets taken by the rocket guys, split and used as fuel and
> oxidiser. A lot of it sticks around and gets recycled back into the
> lifeforms and their sugars. some, of course, escapes. (I could cite
> "The Martian Way" by Isaac Asimov for more detail on this. It is a
> fictional tale, but he includes good science.)
> There aint no reason lunar water can't be used for the same range of
> purposes.
> Of course, on the Earth the water expelled from the rockets has a
> very great chance of remaining here. On the Moon, less so. Escape
> velocity is so much lower and there's so very much less air to hold in
> the vapours.
> Still, if the NASA guys were right, which they are most likely not
> to be, the expelled vapours would eventually condense on the floors of
> the deep, dark pits at the bottom of the Moon.
> Recycled courtesy of the Sun.
> That would be neat. It's a pity it's as much skiffy as the giant
> impactor fairy tales.
> Which brings us to: if you think about the story mentioned above,
> that tale about the idiocy of tree-hugging fanaticism and its use by
> hypocritical politicians (sound vaguely familiar?), you might come to
> the conclusion that dropping a cometary fragment *gently* onto the
> Moon would be a very good idea. The rest of it could go into high
> Earth orbit.
> For farming and fuel.
> Yes, I know, it aint football so it must be nerdy, skiffy stuff.
> And it's impossible to get spaceships-and-robots voted for.
> Though it is obvious that if Mankind is scattered among the
> starworlds, the cute baby-seals would be safe down here.
> I wonder why the greenies never thought of that?
I think you missed my point: Hydrogen isn't useful as a fuel unless
there's an oxidizer available, therefore "using the Hydrogen for fuel
and the Oxygen for breathing" shows a lack of knowledge of chemistry.
Hanging Jester
234e-42d9-8d8...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com:
Congrads to NASA and Jeers to all those who think that this is not
important.
~ Jester
Hanging Jester
@aioe.org:
I think you are making the mistake of assuming that all the oxygen
extracted from the water would be required for breathing leaving none
left to use as an oxidizer. A Lunar base would have to also include a
biosphere type of design to reduce supply needs. Included would be a
hydroponics/greenhouse section for photosynthesis to convert carbon
dioxide to oxygen, to recycle wastes, and to provide food for base
personnel. NASA wastes nothing sent into space that they don't need to.
~ Jester
David
<hangin...@cox.net> typed:
The point is that if the hydrogen were extracted from water then to
use it as a fuel it would require all the oxygen that was released in
that extraction leaving none left for breathing and making the whole
process energy negative.
--
David
No email replies please.
Q:What do they call the alphabet in Arkansas? A:The impossible dream.
Margo
> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 01:27:38 GMT, Hanging Jester
>
>
>
> >Marten Kemp <marten.k...@thisplanet-link.net> wrote in news:hdpt2u$m7q$1> >>> <marten.k...@thisplanet-link.net> wrote:
Why do you assume the entire supply of ice would be required to
produce either fuel or breathable oxygen?
Margo
Marten Kemp
> Why do you assume the entire supply of ice would be required to
> produce either fuel or breathable oxygen?
I don't but it was presented that way/
Margo
wrote:
Ah, I see. Well, since no one really knows the quantities of lunar
water, it may well be a scarce resource. It will be a limited resource
regardless because the moon is comparatively small and without
atmosphere. Still, I doubt if anyone sees the moon as the ultimate
destination , but rather a way-station for human colonization of the
solar system. To that end, a handy supply of oxygen and fuel would be
a very useful thing, in the near term.
Margo
Marten Kemp
>
> Ah, I see. Well, since no one really knows the quantities of lunar
> water, it may well be a scarce resource. It will be a limited resource
> regardless because the moon is comparatively small and without
> atmosphere. Still, I doubt if anyone sees the moon as the ultimate
> destination , but rather a way-station for human colonization of the
> solar system. To that end, a handy supply of oxygen and fuel would be
> a very useful thing, in the near term.
Oh, absolutely.
However, I'll pessimistically predict that we'll lose the tech base
required to get off this mudball before too much longer. We've pretty
much lost the will ("Why throw money away on space when we have so many
problems down here?")
MajorOz
Why give Chris money to go the other way to China when we have so many
problems at home ?
cheers
oz, who is to old to go.........damn it !
Wes Struebing
<Maj...@centurytel.net> wrote:
>On Nov 16, 6:28�pm, Marten Kemp <marten.k...@thisplanet-link.net>
>wrote:
<snip>
>> However, I'll pessimistically predict that we'll lose the tech base
>> required to get off this mudball before too much longer. We've pretty
>> much lost the will ("Why throw money away on space when we have so many
>> problems down here?")
>
>Why give Chris money to go the other way to China when we have so many
>problems at home ?
>
>cheers
>
>oz, who is to old to go.........damn it !
Ditto. Plus bad lungs...
Damn!
Hanging Jester
news:h312g5hjc831gaemk...@4ax.com:
That's odd. My reply disappeared in the either. Oh well, here it is
again:
What you are not considering David is the proper ratio of Oxygen and
Hydrogen that a LOX/LH2 rocket motor operates on. These engines run
"fuel-rich." For example; a Titan LOX/LH2 engine runs on a 1.8-to-1.9
ratio (that's 1 part oxidizer to 8-to-9 parts fuel.) Extracted from
water via electrolysis, that leaves plenty of oxygen left over for other
uses.
~ Jester
cycjec
I suppose. Next think you know there will be trees there
and that attracks Ewoks.
Marten Kemp
> David <faro...@picknowl.com.au> wrote in
> news:h312g5hjc831gaemk...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 01:27:38 GMT, Hanging Jester
>> <hangin...@cox.net> typed:
>> The point is that if the hydrogen were extracted from water then to
>> use it as a fuel it would require all the oxygen that was released in
>> that extraction leaving none left for breathing and making the whole
>> process energy negative.
>
> That's odd. My reply disappeared in the either. Oh well, here it is
> again:
>
>
> What you are not considering David is the proper ratio of Oxygen and
> Hydrogen that a LOX/LH2 rocket motor operates on. These engines run
> "fuel-rich." For example; a Titan LOX/LH2 engine runs on a 1.8-to-1.9
> ratio (that's 1 part oxidizer to 8-to-9 parts fuel.) Extracted from
> water via electrolysis, that leaves plenty of oxygen left over for other
> uses.
Aha! I didn't know that. Makes more sense, now.
Hanging Jester
> Hanging Jester wrote:
>> David <faro...@picknowl.com.au> wrote in
>> news:h312g5hjc831gaemk...@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 01:27:38 GMT, Hanging Jester
>>> <hangin...@cox.net> typed:
> {mucho snippage}
>
>>> The point is that if the hydrogen were extracted from water then to
>>> use it as a fuel it would require all the oxygen that was released
>>> in that extraction leaving none left for breathing and making the
>>> whole process energy negative.
>>
>> That's odd. My reply disappeared in the either. Oh well, here it is
>> again:
>>
>>
>> What you are not considering David is the proper ratio of Oxygen and
>> Hydrogen that a LOX/LH2 rocket motor operates on. These engines run
>> "fuel-rich." For example; a Titan LOX/LH2 engine runs on a 1.8-to-1.9
>> ratio (that's 1 part oxidizer to 8-to-9 parts fuel.) Extracted from
>> water via electrolysis, that leaves plenty of oxygen left over for
>> other uses.
>
> Aha! I didn't know that. Makes more sense, now.
>
A big problem on Earth launched LOX/LH2 spacecraft is the external
crygenics required to keep the hydrogen and ogygen "slushy" cool until
time to launch the spacecraft. (That's why close-up video of the Apollo
and other liquid fueled launch vehicles show sheets of frozen
condensation falling from the craft after ignition. Some of the
umbilicals that detach just prior to lift-off carry refrigerant to keep
the tanks cool.) In space and on the moon, keeping the liquified gasses
cool is is much less of a problem, as all you really need to do is
physically block the sunlight from shining on the tanks and possibly
insulate them from nearby sources of thermal radiation. (Much easier in
a vacuum.)
~ Jester