REVIEW: Al's Take On ST.
him.
"Okay," Al says, "I'm even bringing this up because I do NOT agree with
the floating a.c. opinion: I acutally liked the film, even though I
expected not to.
"There are, probably, a couple of things to explain about my take on ST,
both the book and the movie. To me, the book was NOT about:
1) the suits
2) the bugs
3) what gender Dizzy Flores was
4) Who taught the high school H&MP class, Dubois or Rasczack
5) The war, or any war, at all.
"The book was about citizenship, and altruism, and the desireability of
testing for the second before you hand over the first. Which they covered
in the FIRST FIVE MINUTES of the movie. And continued to cover, as time
went on. To me, that was the litmus test, and the ONLY litmus test for
true faithfulness from the book to the movie, and the movie passed.
"Yes, I DID notice discrepancies. Lots of them. I noticed discrepancies
between the book and the movie to Jurrasic Park, too, and actually I put
them both on about a par. (Save that I'm a biologist and less willing to
forgive JP's innacruacies. This is why I liked the BOOK (which I hold to
a higher standard) less than the movie). Heck, I noticed a big whopping
discrepancy between HCA's and Disney's versions of 'the Little mermaid'.
Free drink to the first person to come up with it.
"As for tactics, which I've heard people rant about: the tactics weren't
stupid, the *weapons* were stupid. Or, rather, the weapons were not
particularly well adapted to the enemy they were fighting. Bugs were real
tolerant of being wounded, and didn't quit at all, so you had to
practiaclly empty your clip into them to get them to stay down. There are
two places, maybe, where I would have done things differently (aside from
throwing a lot more grenades)
[Break: Spoilers. You've been warned.]
"I've been in my share of canyons <flashbacks on the Valley of Evil>, even
canyons in 'hostile territory,' (Such as the terrain exists for wildland
fire people) and rocks do not drop that fast FNAR. The Lt. shoulda
realized something was up.
"When the pickup came, they shoulda got in the retrieval boat and left
right then.
"As for the rest of the movie, No I wouldn't have done it that way, and
they did kinda mix-n-match some of the characters, but it DID capture the
major point of the book and it was a lot more faithful than some movies I
have seen. Besides, it was a pretty decent flick in and of itself."
Big Al. So there. Pppth.
Jennifer L. Rankin
him. wrote:
>
> "Okay," Al says, "I'm even bringing this up because I do NOT agree with
> the floating a.c. opinion: I acutally liked the film, even though I
> expected not to.
(snip, hack, chop)
> Besides, it was a pretty decent flick in and of itself."
>
> Big Al. So there. Pppth.
Okay, I've drifted in and out of this conversation, and now that the
semester has ended and my big projects are in and I have time to go to
the movies, here is my question: is the movie worth seeing? Is it worth
spending theater prices, or wait to rent? On a blood&guts scale, how gory
is the movie?
Please advise.
--jen, who may go see Anastasia instead.
Dennis O'Connor
him. wrote in message <65sska$d...@examiner.concentric.net>...
>"As for tactics, which I've heard people rant about: the tactics weren't
>stupid, the *weapons* were stupid. Or, rather, the weapons were not
>particularly well adapted to the enemy they were fighting.
It might be that the weapons they had on hand were designed
for limited warfare against other humans, where wounding the
enemy is better than killing the enemy. The war against the
bugs started quickly, and the first encounters would have been
fought with whatever the stanadard-issue weapons were.
At the end of the movie, the drop ships had gotten larger and
better armed, and the personal longarm for the infantry could
blow the top off a large hill. The latter is much more appropriate
when the enemy attacks ain waves and needs to be shredded.
However, it did seem likely that a battalion of M1 Abrams
Main Battle Tanks could have pacified a whole bug planet,
given adequate ammo supply. Yet we saw no human
AFVs at all. Stupid. Tanks would be used even in limited
human-v-human wars, so there is no reason for them not
to be around, even if the powered infantry hardsuits are not.
--
Dennis O'Connor
KCRaybould
>The book was about citizenship, and altruism, and the desireability of
>testing for the second before you hand over the first.
Hi
I read that book at the urging of a close friend(I have not seen the movie),
and got a different interpretation from it than you did. It seemed to me to be
a fascist type utopia. The actions of the charecters(particulalry the
veterens) seemed more geared toward power than self-sacrafice. In fact, the
fact that only veterens had any influence over the most basic of social
structures seems to remove all altruistic motives fro service.
Yours was an intersting interpretation and thoughtful interpretation.
kev
Noel Lynne Figart (aka neko-chan)
On 1 Dec 1997 02:21:43 GMT, kcray...@aol.com (KCRaybould) wrote:
>>The book was about citizenship, and altruism, and the desireability of
>>testing for the second before you hand over the first.
>
>Hi
>
>I read that book at the urging of a close friend(I have not seen the movie),
>and got a different interpretation from it than you did. It seemed to me to be
>a fascist type utopia. The actions of the charecters(particulalry the
>veterens) seemed more geared toward power than self-sacrafice. In fact, the
>fact that only veterens had any influence over the most basic of social
>structures seems to remove all altruistic motives fro service.
"You will find, sir, if you read more of Heinlein's work, that
altruism was a concept of which he was quite suspicious," Noel
comments. "Although it is my opinion that many of his characters
tended to behave in that way from time to time. You will also find
that the term "fascist utopia" was used to market the movie.
"If you're interested, Our Patron wrote an essay about Heinlein's
works called Rah, Rah, RAH. I know you can find it in *Requiem*
-edited by Yoji Kondo-- but you can also find it in other works by
Spider.... I cannot recall titles at the moment, but I am sure someone
here could supply them."
Noel goes back to sipping her tea.
Eppur si muove!
Noel, Axe of the BABs, Mum to King of the Babies
and She who truly Groks Coffee.
Page newly updated
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/6419
Polly Esther Fabrique
him. wrote:
Heck, I noticed a big whopping
> discrepancy between HCA's and Disney's versions of 'the Little mermaid'.
> Free drink to the first person to come up with it.
Well, been a while since I read the original, but I seem to remember
that the difference, put concisely, is that Disney's version has a happy
ending.
-- Polly Esther Fabrique
(Remove envelope to reply)
Anne Gwin
In article <65sska$d...@examiner.concentric.net>, Ars...@cris.com (him.) wrote:
> a higher standard) less than the movie). Heck, I noticed a big whopping
> discrepancy between HCA's and Disney's versions of 'the Little mermaid'.
> Free drink to the first person to come up with it.
She's happy at the end?
> fire people) and rocks do not drop that fast FNAR. The Lt. shoulda
FNAR?
Anne
--
Machine shared by Anne Gwin (agwin*AT*mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarlathotep*AT*mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post.
<Discussing an image of a black rectangle silhouetted against the Martian landscape> "That is the top of the calibration target, that is _not_ in fact a monolith."--NASA TV commentator, 7/5/97
"This life is slow suicide, unless you read."
--Lt. Tom Keefer, The Caine Mutiny.
Dane R. Anderson
him. wrote:
> a higher standard) less than the movie). Heck, I noticed a big whopping
> discrepancy between HCA's and Disney's versions of 'the Little mermaid'.
> Free drink to the first person to come up with it.
Well one of them was that in the HCA version each step was supposed to
hurt like walking on knife edges. Another, in the HCA version ALL
mermaids were prohibited from going to the surface, UNTIL their 16th(?)
birthday. After that they were free to go there as they would. Finally
in the HCA version she dies when the prince weds another and she becomes
foam on the surface of the ocean.
--
"If wisdom were money, I would be destitute."
Dane Anderson.
Scott Hoagland
On Sun. Nov.30,1997, yadda, yadda, yadda...
Jennifer wrote:
(snip)
Is it worth seeing?
(further snip)
On a blood&guts scale, how gory is the movie?
Well..my fiance and I went to see it on it's opening weekend. Here's
what I thought:
On a blood&guts scale of 1-10, I give it a 12. It was REALLY gory at
times. Bug blood, human blood, body parts scattered willy-nilly about
the landscape.=A0Nuclear explosions. Violent to the nth degree.
Also, Hollywood felt we needed to be tittilated...yes, there be some
good ol' fashioned nudity in this film (To those who read the book: Did
Mr. Heinlein have sex scenes in the book?).
Language...not a whole lotta swearing...well made up for by the gore
factor.
(My fiance reffered to the movie as "regressive"...whatever that
means...)
Altogether...IMHO, I'd see it when it gets to a dollar theater, if you
have them in your area. If not, and your theaters have "discount" times,
see it then. If neither one fits...wait for the video. I wouldn't pay
full price for this movie...and I LIKE sci-fi.
Hoagy goes back to the bar and picks up a fresh God's Blessing, then
sits back at his table....
Francis A. Ney, Jr.
In article <34824D...@arlington.net> jra...@arlington.net writes:
> Okay, I've drifted in and out of this conversation, and now that the
> semester has ended and my big projects are in and I have time to go to
> the movies, here is my question: is the movie worth seeing? Is it worth
> spending theater prices, or wait to rent? On a blood&guts scale, how gory
> is the movie?
>
> Please advise.
Don't pay full price. See it in a matinee.
On a blood&guts scale, it's got more than all three Aliens movies combined.
---
Frank Ney WV/EMT-B VA/EMT-A N4ZHG LPWV NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO
Sponsor, BATF Abuse page http://www.access.digex.net/~croaker/batfabus.html
West Virginia Coordinator, Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus
NOTICE: Flaming email received will be posted to the appropriate newsgroups
- --
"It's nice to know that the MBAs of the 80's are still gainfully employed at
what they do best. . .making a mess of things so I can fix them."
- David K. Bryant dbr...@netcom.com
Dennis O'Connor
him. wrote in message <65vogi$r...@examiner.concentric.net>...
>Dennis O'Connor <dm...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>However, it did seem likely that a battalion of M1 Abrams
>>Main Battle Tanks could have pacified a whole bug planet,
>>given adequate ammo supply.
>
>"I get the feeling that a flamer bug could have gone <squish> on tanks and
>moved right on. Tanks are real vulnerable to heat."
True. Of course, the tanker bug would have to get close enough.
At any range past 100 yds, they'd just be targets. 'Course, they
did go underground.
>> Yet we saw no human
>>AFVs at all. Stupid. Tanks would be used even in limited
>>human-v-human wars, so there is no reason for them not
>>to be around, even if the powered infantry hardsuits are not.
>
>"I, personally, would have gone for the old hueys, or something."
Perhaps, but their are the razor-winged fly-bugs to contend with.
A-10s might be the platform of choice (durable suckers).
Do a Desert Storm gig: air superiority first, bomb everything
you can next, send in the troops with close air support.
him.
>>"As for tactics, which I've heard people rant about: the tactics weren't
>>stupid, the *weapons* were stupid. Or, rather, the weapons were not
>>particularly well adapted to the enemy they were fighting.
>It might be that the weapons they had on hand were designed
>for limited warfare against other humans, where wounding the
>enemy is better than killing the enemy. The war against the
>bugs started quickly, and the first encounters would have been
>fought with whatever the stanadard-issue weapons were.
"That's basically what I thought just before writing the second sentance."
>However, it did seem likely that a battalion of M1 Abrams
>Main Battle Tanks could have pacified a whole bug planet,
>given adequate ammo supply.
"I get the feeling that a flamer bug could have gone <squish> on tanks and
moved right on. Tanks are real vulnerable to heat."
> Yet we saw no human
>AFVs at all. Stupid. Tanks would be used even in limited
>human-v-human wars, so there is no reason for them not
>to be around, even if the powered infantry hardsuits are not.
"I, personally, would have gone for the old hueys, or something."
Big Al. They are. Ask a tanker.
him.
Dane R. Anderson <duc...@bsvdc01i.ca.boeing.com> wrote:
>him. wrote:
>> a higher standard) less than the movie). Heck, I noticed a big whopping
>> discrepancy between HCA's and Disney's versions of 'the Little mermaid'.
>> Free drink to the first person to come up with it.
>in the HCA version she dies when the prince weds another and she becomes
>foam on the surface of the ocean.
"*That* is what I was looking for. Congratulations. Mike!" Al ponys up
a buck.
Big Al. Big difference, no?
him.
Anne Gwin <ag...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>In article <65sska$d...@examiner.concentric.net>, Ars...@cris.com (him.) wrote:
>> fire people) and rocks do not drop that fast FNAR. The Lt. shoulda
>FNAR?
"For No Apparent Reason. I've seen rocks drop of their own free will, but
generally only one or two in a given day."
Big Al. Maybe they were suicidal.
him.
All My stuff is IMO. You've been warned.
Francis A. Ney, Jr. <cro...@access.digex.net> wrote:
>In article <34824D...@arlington.net> jra...@arlington.net writes:
>> Okay, I've drifted in and out of this conversation, and now that the
>> semester has ended and my big projects are in and I have time to go to
>> the movies, here is my question: is the movie worth seeing?
Absolutely.
>> Is it worth spending theater prices, or wait to rent? On a blood&guts
>> scale, how gory is the movie?
>Don't pay full price. See it in a matinee.
Yeah. Or rent it, tho you'll miss some of the big screen
sphincter-release-inducing effects. Anyway, we're not talking about
_Casablanca_ here.
>On a blood&guts scale, it's got more than all three Aliens movies combined.
I didn't see the third, but yeah, these guys give quintin tarantino a
really good run for his money.
Big Al. I have to go wipe myself off, now.
Noel Lynne Figart (aka neko-chan)
On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:07:26 -0800, ho...@webtv.net (Scott Hoagland)
wrote:
>Also, Hollywood felt we needed to be tittilated...yes, there be some
>good ol' fashioned nudity in this film (To those who read the book: Did
>Mr. Heinlein have sex scenes in the book?).
"No," Noel comments rather tightly. "It was marketed as a juvenile."
She looks thoughtful for a moment, then says. "Alamus, go fetch me
*Grumbles*, will you sugar?"
A small white microphant with a yellow hardhat trots over to the
bookshelf and returns with the volume. Noel kneels, takes the book
and kisses Alamus on the forehead, then climbs up on a chair.
"This is what Mr. Heinlein, himself, had to say about the novel
January 10, 1959 letter to his agent Lurton Blassingame, "Earlier
today we mailed you two copies of *Starship Soldier*.... since I
anticipate that [Dalgliesh is not going to like parts of the book, I
might as well get it over with... it is not a juvenile; it is an adult
novel about an eighteen-year-old boy. I have so written it, omitting
all cleavage and bed games, such that Miss Dalgliesh can offer it in
the same list in which she has my other books, but nevertheless, it is
not a juvenile adventure story. Instead I have followed my own theory
that intelligent youngsters are in fact more interested in weighty
matters than their parents usually are.'"
Noel hops down. "I am sure that any of you in the publishing industry
can back me up on this. *A Wrinkle in Time* by Madeline L'Engle was
considered too intellectual for the mass market trades of the time, so
it was marketed as a juvenile. And thank God for that!"
Elocutus of Borg
In article <65v5du$el5$1...@newsd-199.bryant.webtv.net>,
ho...@webtv.net (Scott Hoagland) wrote:
> Also, Hollywood felt we needed to be tittilated...yes, there be some
> good ol' fashioned nudity in this film (To those who read the book: Did
> Mr. Heinlein have sex scenes in the book?).
No. Despite the fact that I _still_ consider Starship Troopers one of the
great homoerotic masterpieces from my childhood, there was no sex in the
original novel.
"You told me you weren't going to say that out loud," said Mewlocutus
pointedly.
"I couldn't help it," answered Elocutus, "They were talking about ST and
sex. Besides, it's hardly the _worst_ thing I've said here."
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Anne Gwin
In article <8810823...@dejanews.com>, Elocutus of Borg
<Elocutu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <65v5du$el5$1...@newsd-199.bryant.webtv.net>,
> ho...@webtv.net (Scott Hoagland) wrote:
>
> > Also, Hollywood felt we needed to be tittilated...yes, there be some
> > good ol' fashioned nudity in this film (To those who read the book: Did
> > Mr. Heinlein have sex scenes in the book?).
>
> No. Despite the fact that I _still_ consider Starship Troopers one of the
> great homoerotic masterpieces from my childhood, there was no sex in the
> original novel.
No sex, but it's a homoerotic masterpiece. Ohhhhh-kay.
If it's so homoerotic, why do the MI have bull sessions about girls? And
why does Johnnie refer to girls as "what we're fighting for"? I can think
of several other "girls are wonderful" moments, too.
Wrazn
him. wrote:
<snip>
> discrepancy between HCA's and Disney's versions of 'the Little mermaid'.
> Free drink to the first person to come up with it.
--
"I know! I know!" a short young woman jumps up and down trying to get
Al's attention.
[sort of spoiler warning]
"In HCA's version of The Little Mermaid, the prince marries another
girl. The little mermaid's sisters sell their hair to the sea witch to
get a sword with which the mermaid can kill the prince. But for love of
the prince, the little mermaid cannot kill him, dies and becomes bubbles
in the ocean."
"Did I get it?"
=========
-Wrazn-
harried student, wannabe writer
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5911
|===============================|===============================|
|"The very ink in which history | To e-mail me, replace Wrazn |
|is written in is merely fluid | with fortunecookee and |
|prejudice." -Mark Twain- | Venus.ufo with geocities.com |
|===============================|===============================|
Bookwyrm
Noel Lynne Figart (aka neko-chan) wrote:
> "This is what Mr. Heinlein, himself, had to say about the novel
> January 10, 1959 letter to his agent Lurton Blassingame, "Earlier
> today we mailed you two copies of *Starship Soldier*.... since I
> anticipate that [Dalgliesh is not going to like parts of the book, I
> might as well get it over with... it is not a juvenile; it is an adult
> novel about an eighteen-year-old boy. I have so written it, omitting
> all cleavage and bed games, such that Miss Dalgliesh can offer it in
> the same list in which she has my other books, but nevertheless, it is
> not a juvenile adventure story. Instead I have followed my own theory
> that intelligent youngsters are in fact more interested in weighty
> matters than their parents usually are.'"
>
> Noel hops down. "I am sure that any of you in the publishing industry
> can back me up on this. *A Wrinkle in Time* by Madeline L'Engle was
> considered too intellectual for the mass market trades of the time, so
> it was marketed as a juvenile. And thank God for that!"
>
Thanks for the quote, Noel! RAH had a lot of meaty stuff in his
"juvies".
(But it is scarey to think that I've been reading him longer than you've
been alive. EEEP!)
Bookwyrm
--
It was such a lovely day I thought it was a pity to get up.
W. Somerset Maugham
Home is at http://www1.minn.net/~3jay1kay
Jennifer L. Rankin
> > > Also, Hollywood felt we needed to be tittilated...yes, there be some
> > > good ol' fashioned nudity in this film (To those who read the book: Did
> > > Mr. Heinlein have sex scenes in the book?).
> >
> > No. Despite the fact that I _still_ consider Starship Troopers one of the
> > great homoerotic masterpieces from my childhood, there was no sex in the
> > original novel.
>
> No sex, but it's a homoerotic masterpiece. Ohhhhh-kay.
>
> If it's so homoerotic, why do the MI have bull sessions about girls? And
> why does Johnnie refer to girls as "what we're fighting for"? I can think
> of several other "girls are wonderful" moments, too.
>
> Anne
Damnit, Damnit, Damnit.
I step out to study for ONE class and miss the movie review.
--jen, who won't make *that* mistake again
And thanks, Al, for helping out.
Ieuan
On 2 Dec 1997, Anne Gwin wrote:
> In article <8810823...@dejanews.com>, Elocutus of Borg
> <Elocutu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <65v5du$el5$1...@newsd-199.bryant.webtv.net>,
> > ho...@webtv.net (Scott Hoagland) wrote:
> >
> > > Also, Hollywood felt we needed to be tittilated...yes, there be some
> > > good ol' fashioned nudity in this film (To those who read the book: Did
> > > Mr. Heinlein have sex scenes in the book?).
> >
> > No. Despite the fact that I _still_ consider Starship Troopers one of the
> > great homoerotic masterpieces from my childhood, there was no sex in the
> > original novel.
>
> No sex, but it's a homoerotic masterpiece. Ohhhhh-kay.
>
> If it's so homoerotic, why do the MI have bull sessions about girls? And
> why does Johnnie refer to girls as "what we're fighting for"? I can think
> of several other "girls are wonderful" moments, too.
All of which only goes to show that literature truly is in the
interpretation.
Ieuan :-]
Richard Pierce
DJ here.
Bookwyrm <3jay...@minn.net> wrote in article <348420...@minn.net>...
> (But it is scarey to think that I've been reading him longer than you've
> been alive. EEEP!)
I have been reading RAH since 1953.
DJ.
Jennifer L. Rankin
Wrazn wrote:
>
> him. wrote:
> <snip>
> > discrepancy between HCA's and Disney's versions of 'the Little mermaid'.
> > Free drink to the first person to come up with it.
> <snip>
> --
> "I know! I know!" a short young woman jumps up and down trying to get
> Al's attention.
>
> [sort of spoiler warning]
>
> "In HCA's version of The Little Mermaid, the prince marries another
> girl. The little mermaid's sisters sell their hair to the sea witch to
> get a sword with which the mermaid can kill the prince. But for love of
> the prince, the little mermaid cannot kill him, dies and becomes bubbles
> in the ocean."
>
> "Did I get it?"
>
> =========
> -Wrazn-
> harried student, wannabe writer
Oh, and don't forget she was destined to feel as if she was walking on
broken glass... nice grisly touch.
--jen, frightened of the brothers grimm
Dr.Rob
> Heck, I noticed a big whopping
> Free drink to the first person to come up with it.
I'm sure I'm late, but I assume you are referring to the "happily ever after"
ending Disney used. If I recall my HCA (from the movie "HCA" starring Danny
Kaye) Ariel returned to the sea at the end.
Dr.Rob
David Harden
In <19971201022...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, kcray...@aol.com
(KCRaybould) wrote:
[quoting Big Al]
: >The book was about citizenship, and altruism, and the desireability of
: >testing for the second before you hand over the first.
: Hi
: I read that book at the urging of a close friend(I have not seen the movie),
: and got a different interpretation from it than you did. It seemed to me
: to be
: a fascist type utopia. The actions of the charecters(particulalry the
"Hmmm..... As I recall the book, the government and society didn't
seem to be totalitarian - let alone fascist. Granted, very little of
everyday civilian society was actually shown, but there didn't appear
to be any signs of efforts to whip up mass enthusiasm for the system,
or even widespread active support of it. For that matter, the
government didn't seem concerned about the 'loud and unceasing'
complaints against the system, at least not enough to make any effort
to stop them. (While we don't know if Rico's father ever sent (or
even wrote) the letter he talked about when we first see him, he
seemed confident that nothing would happen to him if he did.)
"Likewise, high school seniors had to take a class about the philosophy
underlying the system - but there seemed to be no penalties whatsoever
for not accepting it or even failing to learn it.
"To me, none of that appears characteristic of a 'fascist type'
anything."
: veterens) seemed more geared toward power than self-sacrafice. In fact, the
: fact that only veterens had any influence over the most basic of social
: structures seems to remove all altruistic motives fro service.
"How so? I could be wrong, but I thought the 'test' was for being
able to look past self-interest, not for a lack of it. Besides, it
seems to me that someone could act altruistically or unselfishly once
in a situation, even if they weren't in it for purely altruistic
reasons.
"As for power, it appeared that main thing veterans could do that
civilians couldn't was vote. No small thing, IMO, even if many people
in that society thought otherwise."
David sighs deeply. "I know that showing the political system in
action would've bogged down the story, but not seeing it in action
makes it kind of hard to judge how it worked or even how it was
structured.
"OK, IMO, you can let me down now."
: Yours was an intersting interpretation and thoughtful interpretation.
: kev
--
Please cc any replies to my email address, as IgLou's
newsfeed often gets routed through the Sea of Holes.
David Harden
In <3482b5a4...@news.erols.com>, noel...@erols.com (Noel Lynne Figart
(aka neko-chan)) wrote:
<snip>
: "If you're interested, Our Patron wrote an essay about Heinlein's
: works called Rah, Rah, RAH. I know you can find it in *Requiem*
: -edited by Yoji Kondo-- but you can also find it in other works by
: Spider.... I cannot recall titles at the moment, but I am sure someone
: here could supply them."
"I wonder if Spider's offer to anyone who can prove Heinlein or any of
his protagonists were fascists still stands."
R. Wald
step the ex-mermaid took felt like she was walking on knives."
--
__________________________________________________________________________
Rebecca L. Wald | All I ask of life is a constant and exaggerated
graduate student | sense of my own importance.
U Iowa Psych Dept. |
Elocutus of Borg
Anne Gwin wrote:
> No sex, but it's a homoerotic masterpiece. Ohhhhh-kay.
>
> If it's so homoerotic, why do the MI have bull sessions about girls? And
> why does Johnnie refer to girls as "what we're fighting for"? I can think
> of several other "girls are wonderful" moments, too.
>
Because if you have any fantasies about big, manly boys, at some point or
another, it probably involves the idea of a bunch of big, manly boys
bonding through the course of mental and physical hardship, getting all
sweaty, and having to rely on each other to stay alive.
I'm not suggesting that any of the characters were gay or that anything
they did in the book was inherently sexual. I'm just saying it made my
ears hot to read it.
And, if I'd grown up to be a bottom (or gay), Doogie Himmler would be Yum.
--Elocutus
EC Jester
Scott Hoagland <ho...@webtv.net> wrote in article
<65v5du$el5$1...@newsd-199.bryant.webtv.net>...
On Sun. Nov.30,1997, yadda, yadda, yadda...
> good ol' fashioned nudity in this film (To those who read the book: Did
> Mr. Heinlein have sex scenes in the book?).
No, none. It was originally written as a juvenile novel, if I remember
right, and has no sex at all.
> Altogether...IMHO, I'd see it when it gets to a dollar theater, if you
> have them in your area. If not, and your theaters have "discount" times,
> see it then. If neither one fits...wait for the video. I wouldn't pay
> full price for this movie...and I LIKE sci-fi.
I wholeheartedly agree. I managed to see it for free (a friend had passes
to it from his job in a comic shop) and was very glad I didn't pay to get
in. I thought it had a B-movie feel to me, but the Bug FX weren't bad.
Still, it really shook me to hear Heinlein dialogue coming out of the
mouths of people in Nazi uniforms.
--
EC Jester
Dreaming of Boat Drinks and St. Somewhere.
"I've gotta go where it's warm."
EC Jester
Noel Lynne Figart (aka neko-chan) <noel...@erols.com> wrote in article
<3482b5a4...@news.erols.com>...
: "If you're interested, Our Patron wrote an essay about Heinlein's
: works called Rah, Rah, RAH. I know you can find it in *Requiem*
: -edited by Yoji Kondo-- but you can also find it in other works by
: Spider.... I cannot recall titles at the moment, but I am sure someone
: here could supply them."
I believe it can also be found in _Time Travelers Strictly Cash_, IIRC. I
don't have access to my copy at the moment, but I think I remember it
there.
Of course My wife told me not to think because I get in too much trouble
when I think, so take it for what it's worth. :)
recluse
In article <662qbk$e...@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net>,
recluse is counting on his fingers ... and toes ... and asked a couple of
patrons to help and comes up muttering, "Sounds about right for me too."
-------
recluse
A man possesses nothing certainly save a brief loan
of his own body; and yet the body of man is capable
of much curious pleasure. (James Branch Cabell)
Programmer Access
recluse wrote:
>
> In article <662qbk$e...@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net>,
> Richard Pierce <jollyp...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >DJ here.
> >
> >Bookwyrm <3jay...@minn.net> wrote in article <348420...@minn.net>...
> >> (But it is scarey to think that I've been reading him longer than you've
> >> been alive. EEEP!)
> >
> > I have been reading RAH since 1953.
> >
> >DJ.
> >
>
> recluse is counting on his fingers ... and toes ... and asked a couple of
> patrons to help and comes up muttering, "Sounds about right for me too."
>
To me the question is not "How long have you been reading RAH (or SF, or
reading generally)?"
The question is "Did you discover SF (or reading generally) before the
'practical' folk beat down your sense of wonder?"
"Many years ago, George Land, author of _Grow or Die_, did a study for
NASA which showed that 97 percent of a group of five-year-olds were
highly crative. When this same group was evaluated several years later,
the number had dropped to 30 percent, and by the time the group reached
adulthood, only 2 percent were considered highly creative." From _To
Do, Doing, Done!_ by Snead & Wycoff, p. 35 in my paperback edition.
Brice D. Fleckenstein
> If I recall my HCA (from the movie "HCA" starring Danny
> Kaye) Ariel returned to the sea at the end.
I believe you are correct.
Saberhagen had an interesting variation on the tail in one of his "Book
of Swords" series....
8-)
--
"It takes as much courage to try and fail, as it does to try and
succeed." - Anne Lindburg
If this was in a newsgroup message, it was likely emailed to you as
well.
My opinions are my own, and no others. Reply-to has been de-spammed.
Real email address below.
Brice D. Fleckenstein EMail: ciga at surf-ici.com
John DeLaughter
>: works called Rah, Rah, RAH. I know you can find it in *Requiem*
>: -edited by Yoji Kondo-- but you can also find it in other works by
>: Spider.... I cannot recall titles at the moment, but I am sure someone
>: here could supply them."
>
>his protagonists were fascists still stands."
If not, I'll match it on three provisos:
1) The person must prove that Heinlein/protagonist were fascist in
the sense of the word given by the Encyclopedia Brittannica.
(Absolute primacy of the State, submission of individuals
to the "will of the people" under all circumstances as dictated
by the State and a dictator, celebration of martial values and
combat, denigration of liberal democracy and bourgeois values,
mysticism implying the inviolate sanctity of the State and
constant declarations of its destiny)
2) You have to either wait until 1998 to post your proof, or email
it to me, as I will be traveling to and from various meetings
until then.
and
3) You must provide a copy of the tome in question for my gustatorial
delight(?).
John DeLaughter
Jim M. Pierce
him. wrote:
[] > a higher standard) less than the movie). Heck, I noticed a big whopping
[] > discrepancy between HCA's and Disney's versions of 'the Little mermaid'.
[] > Free drink to the first person to come up with it.
I thought it was that she wore a bra in the Disney version, and
didn't in the book.
DJ.
--
Jim Pierce jmpi...@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard.
Video: Jean-Luc Ponty 'Individual Choice'
Noel Lynne Figart (aka neko-chan)
>
>To me the question is not "How long have you been reading RAH (or SF, or
>reading generally)?"
>
>The question is "Did you discover SF (or reading generally) before the
>'practical' folk beat down your sense of wonder?"
>
"I was in third grade when I read my first piece if SF. It was
actually a required story in a textbook. Lesse, Asimov wrote and and
it was called..." Noel looks to the rafters to remember the title,
"*The Fun They Had*. I hated my third grade teacjher and remember
wishing I could go to school with a computer for a teacher.
"The first Heinlein I read was when I was 14. *Stranger in a Strange
Land*. Played hell with my dating life, I can tell you!"
Anne Gwin
> "I wonder if Spider's offer to anyone who can prove Heinlein or any of
> his protagonists were fascists still stands."
Knowing Spider, yes. (Because it's still very unlikely that you *can*
prove such a thing.)
Laura Packer 5-2027
On 4 Dec 1997, Felren wrote:
> >If I recall my HCA (from the movie "HCA" starring Danny
> >>Kaye) Ariel returned to the sea at the end.
> >>
> >"It's worse than that," Rivka says. "In the original fairy tale, every
> >step the ex-mermaid took felt like she was walking on knives."
>
> "Didn't the mermaid turn into an air spirit, with the hope of gaining a soul?"
> Felren askes. "While we're on the subject, who knows how Sleeping Beauty was
> really awakened? From the original fairy tale that was written for adults?"
>
> Kate-who reads too much and doesn't sleep enough
>
>
Laura perks up, a folkloric gleam in her eyes...
"Sleeping Beauty was visited by TWO princes. The first was not so
princely, failed to kiss her, and left. Nine months later Slleping Beauty
bore twins. Her fairy attendents held the babies to her breasts for
nursing, and (in some versions of the story) she was awakened by them
tugging on her nipples. She is soon visited by a second prince who falls
in love with her, kisses her (and this is how she is awakened in other
versions of the story (both these renditions come from about the same
time, and can be found in good translations of Madame (mumble, I forget
her name)'s collection of french fairy tales which, incidently, were
usually written and told by wealthy bored ladies. I'll stop this lecture,
if anyone is interested in more, let me know)), and secretly marries her.
His mother/stepmother (depends on version, and is sometimes an ogre)
eventually discovers the marraige, and is terribly jealous. She steals
the babies away and convinces the prince SB killed and ate them. SB is
redeemed by (again, varies by version) talking birds/beggars/some other
magical means, the ogress is killed, the babies rediscovered, and they
all live happily ever after.
"How about the original Grimm's Red Riding Hood? Or the French Little
Golden Hood?"
Laura then notices the podium she has been expounding in front of,
blushes, and stops.
dki...@valunet.com
In article , noel...@erols.com says...
>
>On Wed, 03 Dec 1997 23:15:06 -0800, Programmer Access
><programm...@group1.hal-pc.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>To me the question is not "How long have you been reading RAH (or SF, or
>>reading generally)?"
>>
>>The question is "Did you discover SF (or reading generally) before the
>>'practical' folk beat down your sense of wonder?"
>>
>
>
>"I was in third grade when I read my first piece if SF. It was
>actually a required story in a textbook. Lesse, Asimov wrote and and
>it was called..." Noel looks to the rafters to remember the title,
>"*The Fun They Had*. I hated my third grade teacjher and remember
>wishing I could go to school with a computer for a teacher.
>
>"The first Heinlein I read was when I was 14. *Stranger in a Strange
>Land*. Played hell with my dating life, I can tell you!"
>
>
I was reading SF before I knew there was such a thing. All I knew
was that the books I liked in the library had little pictures of rockets
on the spine. I don't even remember who the authors were, back
in the late Fifties.
Dave
"Tam multi libri, tam breve tempus!"
(breve pecunia.) [breve spatium.]
WareWolf96
Anne wrote:
>> No sex, but it's a homoerotic masterpiece. Ohhhhh-kay.
>>
>> If it's so homoerotic, why do the MI have bull sessions about girls? And
>> why does Johnnie refer to girls as "what we're fighting for"? I can think
>> of several other "girls are wonderful" moments, too.
>>
>> Anne
To which Elocutus replied:
>Because if you have any fantasies about big, manly boys, at some point or
>another, it probably involves the idea of a bunch of big, manly boys
>bonding through the course of mental and physical hardship, getting all
>sweaty, and having to rely on each other to stay alive.
By that definition, EVERY piece of military fiction and most sports fiction is
"homoerotic" . Damn, and I was just getting ready to re-read "Killer Angels"
again, too.
WareWolf picks up a copy of Harold Coyle's 'The Ten Thousand", puts it back
down.....Peruses Tom Clancy's "Red Storm Rising", puts that down too...WareWolf
tries not to even THINK about the new Dewey Lambdin book he just bought....
Ahhh, hell. I must be turning gay. What will my Lovely Bride think?
>I'm not suggesting that any of the characters were gay or that anything
>they did in the book was inherently sexual. I'm just saying it made my
>ears hot to read it.
Whatever floats yer boat, pal.....
Dusty
Ieuan
On 4 Dec 1997, Felren wrote:
> "Didn't the mermaid turn into an air spirit, with the hope of gaining a soul?"
> Felren askes. "While we're on the subject, who knows how Sleeping Beauty was
> really awakened? From the original fairy tale that was written for adults?"
>
> Kate-who reads too much and doesn't sleep enough
The prince didn't just kiss her. And the kids sucked the poison out.
Ieuan
Noel Lynne Figart (aka neko-chan)
On 4 Dec 1997 19:51:01 GMT, warew...@aol.com (WareWolf96) wrote:
{snip}
>>To which Elocutus replied:
>>Because if you have any fantasies about big, manly boys, at some point or
>>another, it probably involves the idea of a bunch of big, manly boys
>>bonding through the course of mental and physical hardship, getting all
>>sweaty, and having to rely on each other to stay alive.
>
>
>By that definition, EVERY piece of military fiction and most sports fiction is
>"homoerotic" . Damn, and I was just getting ready to re-read "Killer Angels"
>again, too.
>
> WareWolf picks up a copy of Harold Coyle's 'The Ten Thousand", puts it back
>down.....Peruses Tom Clancy's "Red Storm Rising", puts that down too...WareWolf
>tries not to even THINK about the new Dewey Lambdin book he just bought....
>
> Ahhh, hell. I must be turning gay. What will my Lovely Bride think?
>
>
>>I'm not suggesting that any of the characters were gay or that anything
>>they did in the book was inherently sexual. I'm just saying it made my
>>ears hot to read it.
>
>
> Whatever floats yer boat, pal.....
"I find the idea that that sort of fiction is homoerotic a little odd,
meeself," Noel comments. "When I was in ninth grade, I used to be
really into the <mumblemrfmumble> series and the sex in it was pretty
much heterosexual."
"The *what* series?" Mike asks with a twinkle in his eye.
"<Mumblemurfmumble>," Noel says and looks at the ground.
Mike presses a finger to his ear. "I think I'm going a little deaf.
*What* series?"
"THE EXECUTIONER BY DON PENDLETON," Noel shrieks. With what she hopes
is dignity, she goes to the hot tub, strips out of her clothes and
sinks under the water, bubbling a bit.
God created physics, God created evolution,
and the rest is left to the student as an exercise.
Noel, Axe of the BABs, Mum to King of the Babies
and She who truly Groks Coffee.
Page newly updated. Babywearing article included.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/6419
ElCabalero
In article <65sska$d...@examiner.concentric.net>, Ars...@cris.com (him.)
writes:
>"As for tactics, which I've heard people rant about: the tactics weren't
>stupid, the *weapons* were stupid. Or, rather, the weapons were not
>particularly well adapted to the enemy they were fighting. Bugs were real
>tolerant of being wounded, and didn't quit at all, so you had to
>practiaclly empty your clip into them to get them to stay down. There are
>two places, maybe, where I would have done things differently (aside from
>throwing a lot more grenades)
"Ain't that the truth. Given the opposition, the right weapon would have
been a box-fed grenade launcher, although one could argue for a full-auto
shotgun with some kind of sci-fi anti-recoil device. When it takes the
concentrated fire of a squad to bring down the target, tactics have to lose a
lot of subtlety."
"Anyway, I agree with you. The movie wasn't bad, it just didn't follow the
book as closely as I would have liked. The assault on the Skinny city with
powered armor would have made for some fantastic scenes, and its too bad that
the armor didn't make it. Judged purely on its own merits, it was fair to
middlin', a worthwhile use of 6 bucks, but hardly one for the video shelf
(IMHO, of course)."
--UT
Jim M. Pierce
Programmer Access wrote:
[] The question is "Did you discover SF (or reading generally) before the
[] 'practical' folk beat down your sense of wonder?"
I discovered SF at age 6. And I absolutely refuse to let jerks
stop me from being creative.
I feel that being creative is being practical. Afterall, if it
weren't for creative folks, we would still be in caves, wondering
what fire is all about.
But yes, I have met large numbers of people who are 'practical'...
DJ.
--
Jim
"If you didn't want grits, how come you ordered breakfast ?" Jake Vest.
Jim M. Pierce
[ posted and emailed.]
Laura Packer 5-2027 wrote:
[] Laura then notices the podium she has been expounding in front of,
[] blushes, and stops.
Heyo Laura, I have no problem with learning such things ! I like to
hear them !
And a book I suggest is: "Curious Myths of the Middle Ages" by
Rev. Sabine Baring-Gould edited by Edward Hardy. I have the Cresent
Books edition printed in 1987.
It talks about such myths as William Tell, The Wanderin Jew,
Prester John, The Dog Gellert, St. George, St. Ursula and the Eleven
Thousand Virgins, The Piper of Hameln, etc. ISBN 0-517-63992-0
DJ.
--
Jim Pierce B.Sc. Disclaimer:Standard.
jmpi...@medea.gp.usm.edu
KertRats
Merrily typing on his keyboard, KertRats responds to
a question posed by Programmer Access...
>[] The question is "Did you discover SF (or reading generally)
>[] before the 'practical' folk beat down your sense of wonder?"
>
Don't remember WHEN I 'discovered' S/F, but I do remember
that starting in about 4th or 5th grade, all my book reports were
on S/F novels - up until my Jr. year in high school. The
teacher said S/F was not really literature, and I would have to
read other types of books. So I did .... BUT:
Comes time to write our term paper, topic of our choice. Mine?
.
.
.
.
.
"The Impact of Science Fiction on Modern Life."
Brought up Jules Verne, et al, and how many of the modern
devices we enjoyed at the time were first envisioned in S/F.
Used quotes but contemporary leaders in engineering and
design fields who were known as avid S/F readers. And
so on ......
Got an "A" on that puppy, and was told my future book
reports could be on S/F! ;)
======================== K ==========================
KertRats - who's had to research and examine his own beliefs more since
he's come to Callahans than he has in the last 10 years .... and glad of it.
THANX, y'all!
Lee S. Billings
In article <19971205124...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
kert...@aol.com says...
>Don't remember WHEN I 'discovered' S/F, but I do remember
>that starting in about 4th or 5th grade, all my book reports were
>on S/F novels - up until my Jr. year in high school. The
>teacher said S/F was not really literature, and I would have to
>read other types of books. So I did .... BUT:
>
>Comes time to write our term paper, topic of our choice. Mine?
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>"The Impact of Science Fiction on Modern Life."
>
>Brought up Jules Verne, et al, and how many of the modern
>devices we enjoyed at the time were first envisioned in S/F.
>Used quotes but contemporary leaders in engineering and
>design fields who were known as avid S/F readers. And
>so on ......
>
>Got an "A" on that puppy, and was told my future book
>reports could be on S/F! ;)
Good for you! That's the only way to break thru that mainstream
resistance, by footnoting it and rubbing their noses in it!
Celine
Bill Gawne
[p&e]
I'm picking this up from a followup post...
Big Al is quoted as having said:
>"As for tactics, which I've heard people rant about: the tactics weren't
>stupid, the *weapons* were stupid. Or, rather, the weapons were not
>particularly well adapted to the enemy they were fighting.
"That's entirely correct Al, but even with those inappropriately matched
weapons the tactics were atrocious. Nobody had the faintest conception
of combined arms, or of defense in depth, or of fire supported assault,
or of indirect fire, or the use of reverse slopes for tactical advantage,
or much of anything else that any competent Corporal should know."
"Given only the light weapons shown in the film, I'd have my troops deploy
in one-up-two-back squad formations, and open fire at about 300 yards using
well aimed single shot semi-auto fire. The open terrain favored that, and
the hills would have made for beautiful reverse slope defensive fire traps.
I'd also have had my troops dispersed at MUCH wider interval, using clear
hand signals since there seemed a paucity of comm gear. Full automatic
fire would be reserved for the last 70 yards of the assault closure, with
strict instructions to keep a buffer zone between the assault force and
the bugs to eliminate their advantage of strength and speed for hand to
claw combat. My defensive points would use automatic fire for final
protective fires starting at 500 yards, with clearly assigned lanes of
fire."
"That's just off the top of my head. If I really had it to do, I'd
be thinking a heck of a lot more about my troop and weapons dispositions,
and making sure I had mortars, heavy machineguns, and recoilless rifles
in direct support."
>Bugs were real tolerant of being wounded, and didn't quit at all, so you
>had to practiaclly empty your clip into them to get them to stay down.
>There are two places, maybe, where I would have done things differently
>(aside from throwing a lot more grenades)
"OK, what'd you have done?"
--
Bill Gawne, in Callahan's as in real life. <ga...@pha.jhu.edu>
Senior Science Instrument Operations Analyst, Far Ultraviolet Spectroscopic
Explorer. Retired Master Sergeant USMCR. Nothing I post in alt.callahans
represents an official position of any organization.
On the web: http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~gawne
WareWolf96
>
>"I find the idea that that sort of fiction is homoerotic a little odd,
>meeself," Noel comments. "When I was in ninth grade, I used to be
>really into the <mumblemrfmumble> series and the sex in it was pretty
>much heterosexual."
>
>"The *what* series?" Mike asks with a twinkle in his eye.
>
>"<Mumblemurfmumble>," Noel says and looks at the ground.
>
>Mike presses a finger to his ear. "I think I'm going a little deaf.
>*What* series?"
>
>"THE EXECUTIONER BY DON PENDLETON," Noel shrieks. With what she hopes
>is dignity, she goes to the hot tub, strips out of her clothes and
>sinks under the water, bubbling a bit.
WareWolf is grateful to Noel, since his immediate reaction to Noel stripping
out of her clothes and jumping in the hot tub proves that he is NOT turning
gay, at least not exclusively. (1)
Dusty, who kinda liked the Executioner series his ownself. But I
preferred the Nick Carter books.
(1) Note: WareWolf does not intend any insult to gay Patrons. It should be
noted, however, that while WareWolf has MANY dissatisfactions, his sexual
orientation is NOT one of 'em.
The Lone One
On 5 Dec 1997, Lee S. Billings wrote:
> Good for you! That's the only way to break thru that mainstream
> resistance, by footnoting it and rubbing their noses in it!
"Heh." We smile slightly at her comment, but there is a twinge
behind our eyes. "Our experience was not as felicitious as KertRats's was.
We discovered true SF/fantasy at eight when we read one of Piers Anthony's
Phaze books. When our mother discovered what we were reading, she decided
that all SF/fantasy was evil, due to the nekkid women of Anthony and the
mild references to sex in McCaffrey's Pern books. We were forthwith banned
from reading any book that was not in the YA or kiddie section as well as
any book that was unduly violent/'dark'/had dragons in it/referred to the
beast with two backs." We snort slightly and sigh before continuing.
"We refused to quit reading SF/fantasy completely, although we did
attempt to adhere to her restrictions. We would often sneak books home and
read, or devour books at the library without borrowing them. THis was even
more appalling by the fact that our mother had not read a novel in years
and refused to read the very books she was banning. Needless to say, a lot
of our fights were around that topic. We even started muttering about
slitting our wrists at one point. A bit extreme, we agree, but we were
about 13 at the time and desperate."
"It was only in the last year or two that we could bring any book
we wished home, as long as we did not wave it in our mother's face openly.
We respect her sensibilities and put our more objectionable books in the
back of the bookshelf, as she does believe that she is doing this for our
own good. However, if/when we have children, we are going to be far less
restrictive of their reading material."
"A toast to censorship and enlightened upbringings." *CRASH*
Us.
Ward Hall
The Lone One wrote:
> However, if/when we have children, we are going to be far less
> restrictive of their reading material."
> "A toast to censorship and enlightened upbringings." *CRASH*
>
> Us.
*Crash!*
I have a button that says "I read banned books". I found it in a
display in a bookstore of books that have been banned in various
places...Catcher in the Rye, The Bible, Huck Finn, etc.
--Beaver
Ieuan
Disclaimer: The above is not fact, nor true myth, but fiction.
Ieuan :-]
him.
Dennis O'Connor <dm...@primenet.com> wrote:
>him. wrote in message <65vogi$r...@examiner.concentric.net>...
>>Dennis O'Connor <dm...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>> Yet we saw no human
>>>AFVs at all. Stupid. Tanks would be used even in limited
>>>human-v-human wars, so there is no reason for them not
>>>to be around, even if the powered infantry hardsuits are not.
>>"I, personally, would have gone for the old hueys, or something."
>Perhaps, but their are the razor-winged fly-bugs to contend with.
>A-10s might be the platform of choice (durable suckers).
"yeah, but you can't pick up people with them, and hueys WERE armed. The
flying bugs are still a concern I haen't figured out yet."
>Do a Desert Storm gig: air superiority first, bomb everything
>you can next, send in the troops with close air support.
"They did that once in the movie. Worked pretty well. Why they didn't do
it a second time probably had more to do with the movie itself than what
people woulda done in that situation."
Big Al. Remember, there's space/weight limitations on the ships. I THINK
that's why they used so much infantry.
him.
In article <34883C...@pha.jhu.edu>, Bill Gawne <ga...@pha.jhu.edu> wrote:
>>Bugs were real tolerant of being wounded, and didn't quit at all, so you
>>had to practiaclly empty your clip into them to get them to stay down.
>>There are two places, maybe, where I would have done things differently
>>(aside from throwing a lot more grenades)
>"OK, what'd you have done?"
"1) Clued in that something was up in the canyon. Actual action would
have probably been limited to 'Heads up, people, they're in the canyon
walls.'
2) When the retrieval boat came, thrown all the grenades I had and got on
*right then* instead of farting around for five minutes. This is,
actually, a problem I had with the book: you're getting on the retrival
boat under fire, so you go in two at a time and in a very organized
fashion. Maybe drill getting into the boat so you can do it in thirty
seconds or less.
If I'm on a fire and I have to climb into a vehicle, I'm not going to HAVE
five minutes, I don't know how it is in wartime."
Big Al. Hmmm. Woulda been neat to see more of the scout suits in the
book.
Elocutus of Borg
In article <3486a187...@news.erols.com>,
noel...@erols.com (Noel Lynne Figart (aka neko-chan)) wrote:
> "The first Heinlein I read was when I was 14. *Stranger in a Strange
> Land*. Played hell with my dating life, I can tell you!"
My uncle, who took a creative writing class taught by Kurt Vonnegut,
introduced me to Vonnegut (starting with Breakfast of Champions) at the
age of ten. I read it right after "The Last War" by C. S. Lewis.
I, too, read SISL at 14. I'd already read the one about the survivalist
training class, The Star Beast, and The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress at that
point, but it would be years before I realized they were all by the same
author.
These two people are more responsible for warping my perceptions from the
norm than anyone else on the planet and I thank them daily.
--Elocutus
=====================
"It takes 39 muscles to frown, 14 to smile and absolutely 0 to maintain a
blank expression." - Poppy Dixon
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
grammarfascist
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Elocutus of Borg wrote:
> And, if I'd grown up to be a bottom (or gay), Doogie Himmler would be Yum.
"Doogie Himmler"? LOL!
That's the best I've heard since Spider Robinson referred to it as
"Melrose Space".
--Rose
Elocutus of Borg
In article <19971204195...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
warew...@aol.com (WareWolf96) wrote:
> To which Elocutus replied:
> >Because if you have any fantasies about big, manly boys, at some point or
> >another, it probably involves the idea of a bunch of big, manly boys
> >bonding through the course of mental and physical hardship, getting all
> >sweaty, and having to rely on each other to stay alive.
>
> By that definition, EVERY piece of military fiction and most sports fiction
is
> "homoerotic" . Damn, and I was just getting ready to re-read "Killer Angels"
> again, too.
Well, YES -- if it's written WELL.
--Elocutus
The Grand Old Duke of York
He had ten thousand men
Pat Kight
In article <66bt2k$n...@examiner.concentric.net>, him. <Ars...@cris.com> wrote:
>In article <34883C...@pha.jhu.edu>, Bill Gawne <ga...@pha.jhu.edu> wrote:
>>>Bugs were real tolerant of being wounded, and didn't quit at all, so you
>>>had to practiaclly empty your clip into them to get them to stay down.
>>>There are two places, maybe, where I would have done things differently
>>>(aside from throwing a lot more grenades)
>>"OK, what'd you have done?"
>
(Al describes a couple of other bug-killing options)
Jezebel, who has already explained how much she disliked the movie,
nonetheless giggles.
"Am I the only one who watched that first futile bug-fight and thought,
`Bugs, eh? Why don't they just get a dozen or so cosmic crop-dusters and
spray the whole damned planet down with Raid?' "
--Jezebel
well, yeah, I probably am
kig...@peak.org
Bookwyrm
WareWolf96 wrote:
>
> >
> >"I find the idea that that sort of fiction is homoerotic a little odd,
> >meeself," Noel comments. "When I was in ninth grade, I used to be
> >really into the <mumblemrfmumble> series and the sex in it was pretty
> >much heterosexual."
> >
> >"The *what* series?" Mike asks with a twinkle in his eye.
> >
> >"<Mumblemurfmumble>," Noel says and looks at the ground.
> >
> >Mike presses a finger to his ear. "I think I'm going a little deaf.
> >*What* series?"
> >
> >"THE EXECUTIONER BY DON PENDLETON," Noel shrieks. With what she hopes
> >is dignity, she goes to the hot tub, strips out of her clothes and
> >sinks under the water, bubbling a bit.
>
> Dusty, who kinda liked the Executioner series his ownself. But I
> preferred the Nick Carter books.
>
Hey! I remember those Nick Carter books. Used to read all the ones Mom
would bring home from the bookstore with the stripped off covers. The
Matt Helm ones, too.
Ian Felming didn't write the Bond books fast enough.
Bookwyrm
--
It was such a lovely day I thought it was a pity to get up.
W. Somerset Maugham
Home is at http://www1.minn.net/~3jay1kay
grammarfascist
On 7 Dec 1997, Anne Gwin wrote:
> In article <8814476...@dejanews.com>, Elocutus of Borg
> <Elocutu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <19971204195...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> > warew...@aol.com (WareWolf96) wrote:
> > > By that definition, EVERY piece of military fiction and most sports fiction
> > is
> > > "homoerotic" . Damn, and I was just getting ready to re-read "Killer
> Angels"
> > > again, too.
> >
> > Well, YES -- if it's written WELL.
>
> You'll pardon me, Elocutus, and I'm sure I deserve a rap on the noggin
> from Fast Eddie...but that's the silliest damn thing I ever heard.
Rose notes that, by "homoerotic", Elocutus may simply mean "erotically
appealing to gay men"--which, if true, means that it has nothing to do
with what the author intended, just in how it's perceived. *)
--Rose, doing her best to be helpful
Bill Gawne
>Big Al. Remember, there's space/weight limitations on the ships. I THINK
>that's why they used so much infantry.
"This is a problem that Marine Expeditionary Forces have to deal with
too. The deck space available for helicopters and supporting aircraft
is limited. This is why Marine transport helicopters are larger. We
tend toward the big CH-53's and CH-46's for troop lift, and use the
NARROW bodied Cobra's for attack helicopters and escort duty. While
we used Huey's (UH-1's) in Vietnam, the deck space they require is too
large a hit compared to the number of troops they can carry."
"Still, we also take along a lot of the lighter artillery pieces,
V/STOL aircraft for close air support, and light armor. From what I
could gather the Roger Young had about the lift capacity of a modern
LHD like the Wasp, so I'd expect comparable levels of equipment to
support the assault force."
"Still, I concluded long since that the film was produced and directed
by people with no idea of how to really do this. So I just chalk this
up to their profound and deliberate ignorance. After all, why should
they try to get it right when they can make millions being lazy?"
Felren
>>There are two places, maybe, where I would have done things differently
>>(aside from throwing a lot more grenades)
>
>"OK, what'd you have done?"
Felren grimaces, having seen the movie, and not liked it too much.
"Nuked the planet from orbit. It seems sorta silly to send in infantry when
the bugs had a tunnel system, it seems even sillier to set up their outposts
with out roofs. Of course, the bugs will go under and over the walls. Is the
book any better?"
Kate-slowly going buggy...
Anne Gwin
> In article <19971204195...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> warew...@aol.com (WareWolf96) wrote:
> > By that definition, EVERY piece of military fiction and most sports fiction
> is
> > "homoerotic" . Damn, and I was just getting ready to re-read "Killer
Angels"
> > again, too.
>
> Well, YES -- if it's written WELL.
You'll pardon me, Elocutus, and I'm sure I deserve a rap on the noggin
from Fast Eddie...but that's the silliest damn thing I ever heard.
Anne
--
Machine shared by Anne Gwin (agwin*AT*mail.utexas.edu) and Nyarlathotep (nyarlathotep*AT*mail.utexas.edu). Sometimes we forget to change the name on the post.
<Discussing an image of a black rectangle silhouetted against the Martian landscape> "That is the top of the calibration target, that is _not_ in fact a monolith."--NASA TV commentator, 7/5/97
"This life is slow suicide, unless you read."
--Lt. Tom Keefer, The Caine Mutiny.
Anne Gwin
> Big Al. Remember, there's space/weight limitations on the ships. I THINK
> that's why they used so much infantry.
But wouldn't the air/food/water for all those people take up more room
than machines capable of doing an equivalent amt of damage? (BTW, I
learned most of my science from RAH and Niven.) :-/
Jeanne Burton
Lee S. Billings <stard...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<6697ma$6...@camel15.mindspring.com>...
<snip of KertRats' term paper on the benefits of SF, etc>
> >
> >Got an "A" on that puppy, and was told my future book
> >reports could be on S/F! ;)
>
> Good for you! That's the only way to break thru that mainstream
> resistance, by footnoting it and rubbing their noses in it!
>
> Celine
Speaking of students rubbing teachers' noses in it, we had a HUGE
controversy this spring at a local high school. The valedictorian was to
speak at an honors breakfast, and the topic of her speech was "The Teacher
who has Most Influenced My Life" (assigned by the school board). She
chose her freshman english teacher, and (with teacher sitting there)
proceeded to discuss, for 20 minutes, how this woman's ineptitude and lack
of enthusiasm for the english language had changed her life by making HER
want to go to school and become a competent English teacher. She named
specific instances and teaching techniques, etc..
The school was horrified, and would not let her attend graduation or give
the traditional valedictorian's speech at commencement.
Personally, I don't know how I feel about this...I think it could have been
handled with a little more tact, but having been brutalized by teachers
myself, I can certainly understand where this girl was coming from...
Hugs,
Jeanne
Matthew T. Russotto
In article <01bd02ec$b8372100$6723...@jeanneb.toltbbs.com>,
Jeanne Burton <jea...@toltbbs.com> wrote:
}Speaking of students rubbing teachers' noses in it, we had a HUGE
}controversy this spring at a local high school. The valedictorian was to
}speak at an honors breakfast, and the topic of her speech was "The Teacher
}who has Most Influenced My Life" (assigned by the school board). She
}chose her freshman english teacher, and (with teacher sitting there)
}proceeded to discuss, for 20 minutes, how this woman's ineptitude and lack
}of enthusiasm for the english language had changed her life by making HER
}want to go to school and become a competent English teacher. She named
}specific instances and teaching techniques, etc..
Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. I can think of a teacher or two who
might deserve this treatment.
}The school was horrified, and would not let her attend graduation or give
}the traditional valedictorian's speech at commencement.
}Personally, I don't know how I feel about this...I think it could have been
}handled with a little more tact, but having been brutalized by teachers
}myself, I can certainly understand where this girl was coming from...
The teacher no longer had power over her, and the opportunity
presented itself-- perfect timing, if nothing else. Do you think a
tactful approach would have had any effect?
--
Matthew T. Russotto russ...@pond.com
"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."
EC Jester
The Lone One <mo...@leland.nospam.stanford.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.GSO.3.96.971205...@cardinal1.Stanford.EDU>...
: "Heh." We smile slightly at her comment, but there is a twinge
: behind our eyes. "Our experience was not as felicitious as KertRats's
was.
: We discovered true SF/fantasy at eight when we read one of Piers
Anthony's
: Phaze books. When our mother discovered what we were reading, she decided
: that all SF/fantasy was evil, due to the nekkid women of Anthony and the
: mild references to sex in McCaffrey's Pern books. We were forthwith
banned
: from reading any book that was not in the YA or kiddie section as well as
: any book that was unduly violent/'dark'/had dragons in it/referred to the
: beast with two backs." We snort slightly and sigh before continuing.
: "We refused to quit reading SF/fantasy completely, although we did
: attempt to adhere to her restrictions. We would often sneak books home
and
: read, or devour books at the library without borrowing them. THis was
even
: more appalling by the fact that our mother had not read a novel in years
: and refused to read the very books she was banning. Needless to say, a
lot
: of our fights were around that topic. We even started muttering about
: slitting our wrists at one point. A bit extreme, we agree, but we were
: about 13 at the time and desperate."
: "It was only in the last year or two that we could bring any book
: we wished home, as long as we did not wave it in our mother's face
openly.
: We respect her sensibilities and put our more objectionable books in the
: back of the bookshelf, as she does believe that she is doing this for our
: own good. However, if/when we have children, we are going to be far less
: restrictive of their reading material."
: "A toast to censorship and enlightened upbringings." *CRASH*
EC Jester looks a little pained at the story, and the toast. "I truly must
commend you on your strength of spirit on choosing to read SF/fantasy,
despite the bans, and am even more glad that you didn't fall prey to the
knife's edge.
"What scares me most about your situation is what appalled you: she banned
books without even reading them. This reminds me too much of Nazi Germany
and other placed where they banned books "for your own good". People never
ban what *they* like, but want laws against things others are doing. I
don't mean for you to find this insulting to your mother, so please don't
take it that way. I just have a hot button there.
"I grew up the only reader in my family, so I was always 'the weird one'
for always carrying a book wherever I went, and even more so because the
books were about dragons, or magic, or the future. I know my parents
wondered about the books I read, but at least they didn't outright ban
books of forbid me from reading genres.
"If you don't mind, I'd rather not toast censorship, as to me any kind is
wrong. Rather let me make this toast:
"To more enlightened upbringings, and even more to those who survive with
less. May they ever become more numerous."
*CRASH*
EC Jester
EC Jester
grammarfascist <mic...@kestrel.scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.SOL.3.96.971206164039.15671A-100000@kestrel>...
I dunno, I've always liked Darth Doogie, myself.
EC Jester
who knows what is causing El Nino this year
It's RAH coming in to kick Hollywood's a**!
EC Jester
Programmer Access <programm...@group1.hal-pc.org> wrote in article
<348658...@group1.hal-pc.org>...
<snip>
: "Many years ago, George Land, author of _Grow or Die_, did a study for
: NASA which showed that 97 percent of a group of five-year-olds were
: highly crative. When this same group was evaluated several years later,
: the number had dropped to 30 percent, and by the time the group reached
: adulthood, only 2 percent were considered highly creative." From _To
: Do, Doing, Done!_ by Snead & Wycoff, p. 35 in my paperback edition.
EC Jester thinks hard. Finally, he pulls out a guitar and starts tuning.
"You'll probably regret this, but this reminds me of a Harry Chapin song
called "Flowers are Red". It deals with a child going through school and
how his teachers affect him. Let me try to sing it for you. *Ahem, hem.*"
He drains his drink and starts while he still has his nerve.
The little boy went first day of school.
He got his crayons and he started to draw.
He put colors all over the paper
For colors was what he saw.
Then the teacher said "What you doing, young man?"
"I'm painting flowers" he said.
She said "It's not the time for Art, young man,
And anyway flowers are green and red.
"There's a time for everything, young man.
A way it should be done.
You got to show concern for everyone else.
Boy, your not the only one."
And she said:
"Flowers are red, young man.
Green leaves are green.
There's no need to see flowers any other way
Than the way they always have been seen."
But the little boy said:
"There are so many colors in the rainbow,
So many colors in the morning sun,
So many colors in a flower,
And I see every one."
Well, the teacher said "You're sassy.
There's ways that things should be.
And you'll paint flowers the way they are.
So repeat after me:
"Flowers are red, young man.
Green leaves are green.
There's no need to see flowers any other way
Than the way they always have been seen."
But the little boy said again:
"There are so many colors in the rainbow,
So many colors in the morning sun,
So many colors in a flower,
And I see every one."
Well, the teacher put him in a corner.
She said "It's for your own good.
And you won't come out till you get it right
And are responding like you should."
Well finally he got lonely.
Frightened thoughts filled his head.
And he went up to that teacher,
And this is what he said.
And he said:
"Flowers are red,
And green leaves are green.
There's no need to see flowers any other way
Than the way they always have been seen."
Of course, time went by like it always does.
They moved to another town.
And the little boy went to another school.
This is what he found.
The teacher there was smiling.
She said "Painting should be fun.
And there are so many colors in a flower,
So let's use every one."
But that little boy painted flowers
In neat rows of green and red.
And when the teacher asked him why,
This is what he said.
And he said:
"Flowers are red,
And green leaves are green.
There's no need to see flowers any other way
Than the way they always have been seen."
But there still must be a way
To have our children say:
"There are so many colors in the rainbow,
So many colors in the morning sun,
So many colors in a flower,
And I see every one."
EC finishes with a slightly flubbed fingering and looks up. "How'd I do?
Hey, where is everybody? I wasn't that bad, was I? COME BACK, PLEASE?
I'LL STOP!"
EC Jester
who has no illusions about his singing or guitar playing, and does believe
society punishes creativity, all the while claiming to praise "creative"
people
grammarfascist
On 7 Dec 1997, EC Jester wrote:
<snip of a lovely song>
> EC Jester
> who has no illusions about his singing or guitar playing, and does believe
> society punishes creativity, all the while claiming to praise "creative"
> people
First off, everyone's a virtuoso on the 'net. *) I can reach notes here
that I haven't dreamed about since I hit puberty.
Secondly, this society has never claimed to praise the creative. It
praises "art" and "artists". You need to be a prodigy to take this world
by storm, or even make a decent living without a day job. *sigh* And of
course, since what creates these prodigies is their rebellion against this
stifling world, we need to keep stifling them so that the rebellion can
encourage brilliance. Makes perfect sense, right?
*sigh*
--Rose
Leonard Erickson
3jay...@minn.net (Bookwyrm) writes:
> WareWolf96 wrote:
>> >"I find the idea that that sort of fiction is homoerotic a little odd,
>> >meeself," Noel comments. "When I was in ninth grade, I used to be
>> >really into the <mumblemrfmumble> series and the sex in it was pretty
>> >much heterosexual."
>> >
>> >"The *what* series?" Mike asks with a twinkle in his eye.
>> >
>> >"<Mumblemurfmumble>," Noel says and looks at the ground.
>> >
>> >Mike presses a finger to his ear. "I think I'm going a little deaf.
>> >*What* series?"
>> >
>> >"THE EXECUTIONER BY DON PENDLETON," Noel shrieks. With what she hopes
>> >is dignity, she goes to the hot tub, strips out of her clothes and
>> >sinks under the water, bubbling a bit.
Nothing to be ashamed of. It's a lot better than most series of that
ilk.
--
Leonard Erickson (aka Nemo)
kal...@krypton.rain.com
d_p...@li-fish.net
In article <348742f...@news.erols.com>,<snip>
> Page newly updated. Babywearing article included.
*blink*
*blink*
"Baby wearing...? Diapers getting too expensive?"
"One more thing. How did you include the baby in the web page?
Netscape is telling me I'm missing a plug-in."
<BABY SIZE="9LBS" HREF="/Junior.bby">
</BABY>
(gd&r)
Dr. Dee
d_perlo AT li-fish DOT net
http://www.li-fish.net/~d_perlo
Elocutus of Borg
In article <agwin-06129...@dial-89-15.ots.utexas.edu>,
ag...@mail.utexas.edu (Anne Gwin) wrote:
>
> In article <8814476...@dejanews.com>, Elocutus of Borg
> <Elocutu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <19971204195...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> > warew...@aol.com (WareWolf96) wrote:
> > > By that definition, EVERY piece of military fiction and most sports
fiction
> > is
> > > "homoerotic" . Damn, and I was just getting ready to re-read "Killer
> Angels"
> > > again, too.
> >
> > Well, YES -- if it's written WELL.
>
> You'll pardon me, Elocutus, and I'm sure I deserve a rap on the noggin
> from Fast Eddie...but that's the silliest damn thing I ever heard.
Let me try this again:
I think that there are common elements in well-written martial fiction
that lend themselves to the projection of homoerotic fantasies onto their
settings and/or casts[1], particularly if you are inclined to fantasize
about discipline and control. My assumption is that this is coincidental
to the writer's intent.
I am surprised that this idea strikes anyone as odd.
--Elocutus [1]Except for Tom Clancy novels. They've always struck me as
novels about big, expensive toys, with a few people thrown in to provide
exposition
Noel Lynne Figart (aka neko-chan)
On Mon, 08 Dec 1997 08:22:36 -0600, d_p...@li-fish.net wrote:
>In article <348742f...@news.erols.com>,
> noel...@erols.com (Noel Lynne Figart (aka neko-chan)) wrote:
>>
><snip>
>
>> Page newly updated. Babywearing article included.
>
>*blink*
>
>*blink*
>
>"Baby wearing...? Diapers getting too expensive?"
>
>"One more thing. How did you include the baby in the web page?
>Netscape is telling me I'm missing a plug-in."
>
><BABY SIZE="9LBS" HREF="/Junior.bby">
></BABY>
>
"You, my dear, are a smart alec," Noel chuckles. "Babywearing is a
phrase used by Bill and Martha Sears as a part of a childrearing
philosophy. I don't know how much you know about babies, but as a
general rule, the more you carry them, the less they cry. I did an
article for AOL's Ma'Zine back in '96 about baby carriers. My
personal favorite is a sling-type carrier. I still use it to carry my
son on my hip sometimes. He's about 2 1/2."
God created physics, God created evolution,
and the rest is left to the student as an exercise.
Noel, Axe of the BABs, Mum to King of the Babies
and She who truly Groks Coffee.
Page newly updated. Babywearing article included.
Elocutus of Borg
In article <01bd02ec$b8372100$6723...@jeanneb.toltbbs.com>,
"Jeanne Burton" <jea...@toltbbs.com> wrote:
> Speaking of students rubbing teachers' noses in it, we had a HUGE
> controversy this spring at a local high school. The valedictorian was to
> speak at an honors breakfast, and the topic of her speech was "The Teacher
> who has Most Influenced My Life" (assigned by the school board). She
> chose her freshman english teacher, and (with teacher sitting there)
> proceeded to discuss, for 20 minutes, how this woman's ineptitude and lack
> of enthusiasm for the english language had changed her life by making HER
> want to go to school and become a competent English teacher. She named
> specific instances and teaching techniques, etc..
> The school was horrified, and would not let her attend graduation or give
> the traditional valedictorian's speech at commencement.
> Personally, I don't know how I feel about this...I think it could have been
> handled with a little more tact, but having been brutalized by teachers
> myself, I can certainly understand where this girl was coming from...
I understand completely from two aspects.
We had already started the process of renting out the local Elk's Lodge
for an alternate graduation ceremony before our high school's
administration lightened up. The list of do's and don'ts for graduation
was a mile long. They vetoed the class song, ordered us not to alter our
mortarboards in any way, wanted to veto our chosen keynote speaker, and
demanded preapproval of the valedictory and salutatory speeches. The
message was clear: It's time to enter adulthood like good, little boys
and girls.
And MY freshman high school English teacher was nuts -- a born-again
puritain who was constantly quoting scripture and used to regularly tell
the class that she had never read a book over 600 pages -- and she was
PROUD of it!
Until many years later, my little brother asked her how many pages were
in her Bible. After that, she never mentioned it again.
--Elocutus
him.
Matthew T. Russotto <russ...@wanda.vf.pond.com> wrote:
>}Personally, I don't know how I feel about this...I think it could have been
>}handled with a little more tact, but having been brutalized by teachers
>}myself, I can certainly understand where this girl was coming from...
>presented itself-- perfect timing, if nothing else. Do you think a
>tactful approach would have had any effect?
"No." Al says, "I don't think THIS approach had any effect either. I
would say probably a third of my teachers before college were occupiers of
space and consumers of oxygen too and there was No Way To Get Rid Of Them.
"At least, no way available to someone who wasn't a parent, and the
teacher had to be *really* screwed up, like, in a criminal sense, for that
to happen. The most you could do for incompetence is get them
transfered."
Big Al. Spent too long in the public schools.
Leonard Erickson
Elocutus of Borg <Elocutu...@hotmail.com> writes:
> I think that there are common elements in well-written martial fiction
> that lend themselves to the projection of homoerotic fantasies onto their
> settings and/or casts[1], particularly if you are inclined to fantasize
> about discipline and control. My assumption is that this is coincidental
> to the writer's intent.
>
> I am surprised that this idea strikes anyone as odd.
>
> --Elocutus [1]Except for Tom Clancy novels. They've always struck me as
> novels about big, expensive toys, with a few people thrown in to provide
> exposition
Well, certain of the Executioner books and their spin off series fit
that description *far* better. There are places where they spend more
time talking about the weapons than what they are doing.
Brice D. Fleckenstein
> Heh...My secret vice was the Destroyer...It was a rather tongue in cheek parody
> of the others of that sort...
And quite funny even when you have NOT read any other of that sort of
book....
8-)
--
"It takes as much courage to try and fail, as it does to try and
succeed." - Anne Lindburg
If this was in a newsgroup message, it was likely emailed to you as
well.
My opinions are my own, and no others. Reply-to has been de-spammed.
Real email address below.
Brice D. Fleckenstein EMail: ciga at surf-ici.com
Brice D. Fleckenstein
> "You did alright. I no canna carry a tune in a bucket."
>
> Linda the Starship, "But you eat tuna fish..."
>
> I don't eat tuning forks, uh tuning fish.
"You Can Tune A Piano, But YOu Can't Tuna Fish"?
(apologies to REO)
Lee S. Billings
In article <01bd02ec$b8372100$6723...@jeanneb.toltbbs.com>,
jea...@toltbbs.com says...
>Speaking of students rubbing teachers' noses in it, we had a HUGE
>controversy this spring at a local high school. The valedictorian was
to
>speak at an honors breakfast, and the topic of her speech was "The
Teacher
>who has Most Influenced My Life" (assigned by the school board). She
>chose her freshman english teacher, and (with teacher sitting there)
>proceeded to discuss, for 20 minutes, how this woman's ineptitude and
lack
>of enthusiasm for the english language had changed her life by making
HER
>want to go to school and become a competent English teacher. She
named
>specific instances and teaching techniques, etc..
>The school was horrified, and would not let her attend graduation or
give
>the traditional valedictorian's speech at commencement.
>Personally, I don't know how I feel about this...I think it could have
been
>handled with a little more tact, but having been brutalized by
teachers
>myself, I can certainly understand where this girl was coming from...
If I were her, I'd have threatened to publish the speech in the local
newspaper if they wouldn't let her give it in the school. Even now, in
her shoes, I might publish it anyway. (Tell the newspaper it was a
censored speech and there won't be any resistance!) As to libel suits,
truth is an unassailable defense; and it might at least serve to warn
parents of prospective freshmen to transfer their kids out of this
teacher's class.
And if Christians can sue to continue to have John 3.14 read at public
school graduations with *very* multi-religious students, she could
certainly have done the same to be allowed to attend her own!
Celine
Anne Gwin
In article <8816060...@dejanews.com>, Elocutus of Borg
<Elocutu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<Dusty>
> > > > By that definition, EVERY piece of military fiction and most
sports fiction is "homoerotic". Damn, and I was just getting ready to
re-read "Killer Angels" again, too.
<Elocutus>
> > >
> > > Well, YES -- if it's written WELL.
<me>
> >
> > You'll pardon me, Elocutus, and I'm sure I deserve a rap on the noggin
> > from Fast Eddie...but that's the silliest damn thing I ever heard.
>
<Elocutus>
> Let me try this again:
>
> I think that there are common elements in well-written martial fiction
> that lend themselves to the projection of homoerotic fantasies onto their
> settings and/or casts[1], particularly if you are inclined to fantasize
> about discipline and control. My assumption is that this is coincidental
> to the writer's intent.
>
OK, when you add "the projection of..." I can't really object, since your
fantasies are your business. (You're also missing the fact that girls read
this stuff too; check out the list of contributors to these ST threads. I
could get peeved at the way you're insisting on the HOMOerotic aspect of
things....)
> I am surprised that this idea strikes anyone as odd.
>
The first time you said it, you didn't make it clear that you knew it was
your eyes and not the writers' pens putting it there. The assumption you
stated above was *completely* missing the first time around.
Anne
> --Elocutus [1]Except for Tom Clancy novels. They've always struck me as
> novels about big, expensive toys, with a few people thrown in to provide
> exposition
<snicker> Good way to put it.
MadAlaric
>>> >"THE EXECUTIONER BY DON PENDLETON," Noel shrieks. With what she hopes
>>> >is dignity, she goes to the hot tub, strips out of her clothes and
>>> >sinks under the water, bubbling a bit.
>
>
Heh...My secret vice was the Destroyer...It was a rather tongue in cheek parody
of the others of that sort...but you had to read between the lines to catch the
jokes.
Phil the selkie
dki...@valunet.com
In article , ag...@mail.utexas.edu says...
>
>In article <8816060...@dejanews.com>, Elocutus of Borg
><Elocutu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> --Elocutus [1]Except for Tom Clancy novels. They've always struck me as
>> novels about big, expensive toys, with a few people thrown in to provide
>> exposition
>
><snicker> Good way to put it.
>
Hey! I like novels about Big Expensive Toys! It's the only way I
get to play with them. You know, once upon a time, Clancy's
novels would have been considered science fiction, because they
are set somewhat in the future and use military equipment that
does not exist yet. Remember _Failsafe_, _Doctor Strangelove_,
_Alas Babylon_, etc., all forerunners of the genre now led by Clancy.
Dave
"Tam multi libri, tam breve tempus!"
(Et brevis pecunia.) [Et breve spatium.]
Laura Packer 5-2027
Laura giggles. "I love the Destroyer series. Did you ever see the movie
entitiled simply _Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins_? Joel Grey plays
Chiun, and does a remarkably good job of it. There was also a teevee show
based on the books, but I saw only one episode, and am the only person I
know who ever saw it. Maybe I'm hallucinating, again..."
Laura
storyteller, folklorist, dreamer
Michael Holmes
Anne Gwin (ag...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
: In article <8816060...@dejanews.com>, Elocutus of Borg
: <Elocutu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[...]
: <Elocutus>
: > Let me try this again:
: >
: > I think that there are common elements in well-written martial fiction
: > that lend themselves to the projection of homoerotic fantasies onto their
: > settings and/or casts[1], particularly if you are inclined to fantasize
: > about discipline and control. My assumption is that this is coincidental
: > to the writer's intent.
: OK, when you add "the projection of..." I can't really object, since your
: fantasies are your business. (You're also missing the fact that girls read
: this stuff too; check out the list of contributors to these ST threads. I
: could get peeved at the way you're insisting on the HOMOerotic aspect of
: things....)
"Uhm... actually, I _think_ the *gender* of the *reader* is irrelevant,
Anne. If the story is about men together which lends itself to erotic
imaginings, it's homoerotic, regardless of whether men or women are reading
about it."
: > I am surprised that this idea strikes anyone as odd.
: The first time you said it, you didn't make it clear that you knew it was
: your eyes and not the writers' pens putting it there. The assumption you
: stated above was *completely* missing the first time around.
: Anne
--
"For man, as for flower and beast and bird, the supreme triumph
is to be most vividly, most perfectly alive." - David Herbert Lawrence
Anne Gwin
> "Uhm... actually, I _think_ the *gender* of the *reader* is irrelevant,
> Anne. If the story is about men together which lends itself to erotic
> imaginings, it's homoerotic, regardless of whether men or women are reading
> about it."
Are you sure? If I'm thinking about two boat-floaters nekkid together,
that's *not* homoerotic. I believe the gender of the imaginer *is*
relevant.
Anne
who still thinks this is silly
Pat Kight
>> > > By that definition, EVERY piece of military fiction and most sports
>fiction
>> > is
>> > > "homoerotic" . Damn, and I was just getting ready to re-read "Killer
>> Angels"
>> > > again, too.
>> >
>> > Well, YES -- if it's written WELL.
>>
>> You'll pardon me, Elocutus, and I'm sure I deserve a rap on the noggin
>> from Fast Eddie...but that's the silliest damn thing I ever heard.
>
>Let me try this again:
>
>I think that there are common elements in well-written martial fiction
>that lend themselves to the projection of homoerotic fantasies onto their
>settings and/or casts[1], particularly if you are inclined to fantasize
>about discipline and control. My assumption is that this is coincidental
>to the writer's intent.
>
>I am surprised that this idea strikes anyone as odd.
Jezebel chuckles, figuring that if Elocutus had substituted the word
"erotic" for "homoerotic," he might not be catching so much (admittedly
mild-mannered) flak.
"You'd think," the Spinster notes to Elocutus, "that the folx in this, of
all Places, would grok the notion that one's erotic fantasy life can be
triggered by all *sorts* of things ... definitely including fiction that
isn't *intended* as sexy.
"I'm old enough to remember friends passing around a dog-eared copy of
`Forever Amber' just to read the `hot' parts -- and this was an
historical romance without an explicitly sexual phrase in its pages.
"I've also known more than a few women who admit that their pubescent
interest in horsey novels such as `Black Beauty' had a decidedly erotic
component.
"So I don't see anything at *all* inconsistent with the idea that someone
who's bent in the direction of, erm, admiring manly, muscular men with
commanding personalities would get a little ... more ... than the author
intended out of martial fiction."
Jez chuckles.
"Heck, if I'm honest with myself, I'd have to say I used to get a certain
... frisson ... out of those good, old, wholesome `Nancy Drew' mysteries
(strong, capable girl using her wits to get out of dangerous situations --
be still, my beating heart!)"
--Jezebel
kig...@peak.org
Jim M. Pierce
EC Jester wrote:
[] EC finishes with a slightly flubbed fingering and looks up. "How'd I do?
[] I'LL STOP!"
"You did alright. I no canna carry a tune in a bucket."
Linda the Starship, "But you eat tuna fish..."
I don't eat tuning forks, uh tuning fish.
[cringe] Linda.
DJ.
--
Jim Pierce jmpi...@medea.gp.usm.edu Disclaimer: Standard.
Video: 'Leaving Las Vegas' by Sheryl Crow
Eric The Read
kig...@kira.peak.org (Pat Kight) writes:
> Jezebel chuckles, figuring that if Elocutus had substituted the word
> "erotic" for "homoerotic," he might not be catching so much (admittedly
> mild-mannered) flak.
"Oh, very likely not," Eric agrees. "Then again, very possibly. Myself,
I can not find the least bit of titillation in STARSHIP TROOPERS, so I
confess I would have found it a bit of a stretch to claim the author
wrote an military-erotic masterpiece."
> "You'd think," the Spinster notes to Elocutus, "that the folx in this, of
> all Places, would grok the notion that one's erotic fantasy life can be
> triggered by all *sorts* of things ... definitely including fiction that
> isn't *intended* as sexy.
"I think the major source of contention lay in the original ambiguity
which led me, as well as many others, to conclude that Elocutus was
saying that the author was writing homoerotic fiction, rather than
fiction that can be appreciated by someone with homoerotic tendencies, if
you catch my meaning.
"I don't think anybody was saying Elocutus was wrong in finding ST to be
erotic, or that he was weird for doing so; the major objection seemed to
be that most of the objectors thought he was saying Heinlein intended it
to be erotic."
-=Eric
WareWolf96
In article <19971209031...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, mada...@aol.com
(MadAlaric) writes:
>
>>>> >"THE EXECUTIONER BY DON PENDLETON," Noel shrieks. With what she hopes
>>>> >is dignity, she goes to the hot tub, strips out of her clothes and
>>>> >sinks under the water, bubbling a bit.
>>
>>
>
>Heh...My secret vice was the Destroyer...It was a rather tongue in cheek
>parody
>of the others of that sort...but you had to read between the lines to catch
>the
>jokes.
>
>
>Phil the selkie
Oh, yeah. I loved that one, too. I particularly enjoyed Chiun,the sarcastic
Korean master assassin....fun stuff, those books.
Dusty
Posted and e-mailed(-I hope)
Lee S. Billings
In article <xkf4t4i...@valdemar.col.hp.com>,
emsc...@mail.uccs.edu says...
My take on this is that there's an awful lot of sublimated homo-
eroticism in almost any "male-bonding" activity, be it war, sports
teams, or those silly "Iron John" drumming circles. I thought *that*
was what Elocutus was talking about, although I think he could have
made it a little clearer.
And Heinlein may have been very much aware of this in the writing of
it; after all, he was in the military.
Celine
John Palmer
On 9 Dec 1997 10:28:25 -0800, kig...@kira.peak.org (Pat Kight) wrote:
>In article <8816060...@dejanews.com>,
>Elocutus of Borg <Elocutu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>I think that there are common elements in well-written martial fiction
>>that lend themselves to the projection of homoerotic fantasies onto their
>>settings and/or casts[1], particularly if you are inclined to fantasize
>>about discipline and control. My assumption is that this is coincidental
>>to the writer's intent.
>>
>>I am surprised that this idea strikes anyone as odd.
>
>Jezebel chuckles, figuring that if Elocutus had substituted the word
>"erotic" for "homoerotic," he might not be catching so much (admittedly
>mild-mannered) flak.
Shrug. Keeping in mind that *I* haven't said anything about it
yet, what makes me go "wha .. . ?" about the statement is that there
didn't seem to be anything 'erotic' about it at all, and because it
held the danger of having some kind of "gay folks are *REALLY* silly
this way" statement hidden inside it.
>
>"You'd think," the Spinster notes to Elocutus, "that the folx in this, of
>all Places, would grok the notion that one's erotic fantasy life can be
>triggered by all *sorts* of things ... definitely including fiction that
>isn't *intended* as sexy.
Nod. But if he'd said "A gay man's B&D paradise", that would be
clear, whereas merely "homoerotic" suggests that any gay man would
find it at least VAGUELY erotic. . .not merely one of particular
tendencies.
--
"Everything I needed to know in life, I learned in
kidnergarten. Like: morality must exist beyond the
purview of a deity if morality is to have a meaning
beyond tyranny.
Anne Gwin
In article <xkf4t4i...@valdemar.col.hp.com>, "Eric The Read"
<emsc...@mail.uccs.edu> wrote:
> "I don't think anybody was saying Elocutus was wrong in finding ST to be
> erotic, or that he was weird for doing so; the major objection seemed to
> be that most of the objectors thought he was saying Heinlein intended it
> to be erotic."
Anne says, "You took the words right out of my mouth, Eric. And I think
Jez's flaky news server hasn't served her my latest reply to Elocutus,
either."
Michael Holmes
Anne Gwin (ag...@mail.utexas.edu) wrote:
: > "Uhm... actually, I _think_ the *gender* of the *reader* is irrelevant,
: > Anne. If the story is about men together which lends itself to erotic
: > imaginings, it's homoerotic, regardless of whether men or women are reading
: > about it."
: Are you sure? If I'm thinking about two boat-floaters nekkid together,
: that's *not* homoerotic. I believe the gender of the imaginer *is*
: relevant.
"I'm fairly sure... I mean, if Xena and Gabrielle share an intense hug
and gaze deeply into each other's eyes, that's a scene with lesbian-eroticism.
If *I* am watching it, with interest, it still is a lesbian-erotic scene."
"If a homosexual gets turned on by watching a hetero couple have sex,
is that couple now homoerotic? I don't think so. The suggestion was
that good martial fiction can be seen as homoerotic, because men bonding
together under those circumstances often lends itself to erotic imagery.
If a woman gets turned on by thinking of men showering together, or
wrestling together, the *scenes* are homoerotic, the players in the fantasy
are homoerotic, regardless of the gender of the reader/viewer."
"If you are thinking that the suggestion that a woman fantasizing about
soldiers in general must be homoerotic, that could be part of the
misunderstanding... it's the interactions _between_ the men in martial
fiction that seems to lend itself to the fantasizing, thus the description
of homoerotic seems to be appropriate regardless of the gender (or
orientation) of the reader."
"I see at as the difference between describing the scene and describing
the orientation of the viewer -- two different things. And not every
fantasy a heterosexual has _must_ therefore be heterosexual."
: Anne
: who still thinks this is silly
:-) "Well, yeah. But what's a boat-floater?"
Elocutus of Borg
In article <66i4s0$u...@camel12.mindspring.com>,
stard...@mindspring.com (Lee S. Billings) wrote:
> And if Christians can sue to continue to have John 3.14 read at public
> school graduations with *very* multi-religious students, she could
> certainly have done the same to be allowed to attend her own!
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so
must the Son of man be lifted up.
Ummm. Might that be John 3:16?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting
life.
3.14 is an approximation of pi.
Elocutus of Borg
In article <agwin-08129...@dial-107-16.ots.utexas.edu>,
ag...@mail.utexas.edu (Anne Gwin) wrote:
>
> In article <8816060...@dejanews.com>, Elocutus of Borg
> <Elocutu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Let me try this again:
> >
> > that lend themselves to the projection of homoerotic fantasies onto their
> > settings and/or casts[1], particularly if you are inclined to fantasize
> > about discipline and control. My assumption is that this is coincidental
> > to the writer's intent.
> >
>
> fantasies are your business. (You're also missing the fact that girls read
> this stuff too; check out the list of contributors to these ST threads. I
> could get peeved at the way you're insisting on the HOMOerotic aspect of
> things....)
>
> >
>
> your eyes and not the writers' pens putting it there. The assumption you
> stated above was *completely* missing the first time around.
Maybe I've been spending too much time on soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm and
it's starting to warp my use of the language. My assumption is that all
eroticism is projected by the viewer. I don't think Heinlein
deliberately put cues in Starship Troopers to inspire homoerotic
thoughts.
The reason I insist on "homoerotic," as opposed to just "erotic," is that
I don't think ST, as written, gives a woman much of a chance to project
herself into the action. Obviously, YMMV.
Lee S. Billings
In article <881777937....@dejanews.com>,
Elocutu...@hotmail.com says...
>
>In article <66i4s0$u...@camel12.mindspring.com>,
> stard...@mindspring.com (Lee S. Billings) wrote:
>> And if Christians can sue to continue to have John 3.14 read at
public
>> school graduations with *very* multi-religious students, she could
>> certainly have done the same to be allowed to attend her own!
>
>John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even
so
>must the Son of man be lifted up.
>
>Ummm. Might that be John 3:16?
>
>John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten
Son,
>that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
everlasting
>life.
>
>3.14 is an approximation of pi.
<giggle> Guess that shows I'm more of a mathematician than a Biblical
scholar! Thanks for the correction.
Celine
Elocutus of Borg
In article <66ituo$4...@drn.zippo.com>,
dki...@valunet.com wrote:
> Hey! I like novels about Big Expensive Toys! It's the only way I
> get to play with them. You know, once upon a time, Clancy's
> novels would have been considered science fiction, because they
> are set somewhat in the future and use military equipment that
> does not exist yet. Remember _Failsafe_, _Doctor Strangelove_,
> _Alas Babylon_, etc., all forerunners of the genre now led by Clancy.
I have no objections to big, expensive toys. What I said is that I find
them about as erotic as my clock-radio.
*MRP* *MRP* *MRP* *MRP* *MRP* *MRP* *MRP* *MRP* *MRP*
Shadow
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:53:40 -0500 (EST) In Message # 00002366
In alt.callahans Post # 00000579
Shadow <poo...@pluto.njcc.com> said:
On Sat, 6 Dec 1997 ga...@host.yab.com wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Dec 1997 06:28:05 -0700 (MST) In Message # 00002278
> In alt.callahans Post # 00000491
> Driscoll said:
> Police and SWAT begin to shuffle around doing their work. clearing
> roadblocks, takign photographs, clearing larger rubble out of the street,
> putting up yellow tape etc. (I take it this is where Rhiannon is going to
> make her entrance? Or is she not at all now?)
<Yes, thus is where she enters.>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Roslowski poo...@pluto.njcc.com
"Because forgiveness, for one like you, could never be an option."
Lady Achika - Tenchi Muyo in Love (Dubbed)