Amway/MagnaBloc gets FDA warning letter
Five Pillars of Health Digest (FPHD)
leaders in the industry Nikken but now Amway was just served a warning
letter from the FDA about their medical claims made with the MagnaBloc
magnets. In other words, MagnaBloc will be shut down until they come
into compliance. Way to go Amway. - Jim
--
Yesterday is history;
tomorrow is a mystery;
today is a gift;
that's why it's called the Present.
Victor Abbott
Been using them for years from a non-MLM manufacturer. As for the MangaBloc
(whatever that is/does??) why don't they just redesign it and rename it.
That's my two-bits.
Victor
Charles W Pflanze <cw...@news.utk.edu> wrote in message
news:7scaiu$j4s$1...@gaia.ns.utk.edu...
> Five Pillars of Health Digest (FPHD) (painl...@sprynet.com) wrote:
>
> :Not only is Amway/MangaBloc in deep doo-doo litigation with magnetic
> :leaders in the industry Nikken but now Amway was just served a warning
> :letter from the FDA about their medical claims made with the MagnaBloc
> :magnets. In other words, MagnaBloc will be shut down until they come
> :into compliance. Way to go Amway. - Jim
>
> Not to worry. They can always try something else like those silly
> and uselesss laundry balls you can mail order for $75.
>
RC Jonas
the other way around.
--
RC Jonas
VP, Schmedding & Jonas Distributing, Inc.
Distributor of Quixtar & Amway 2000 Products & Services
Five Pillars of Health Digest (FPHD) <painl...@sprynet.com> wrote in
message news:37E9926A...@sprynet.com...
> Not only is Amway/MangaBloc in deep doo-doo litigation with magnetic
> leaders in the industry Nikken but now Amway was just served a warning
> letter from the FDA about their medical claims made with the MagnaBloc
> magnets. In other words, MagnaBloc will be shut down until they come
> into compliance. Way to go Amway. - Jim
>
RC Jonas
Could you please post your source of this information ?
Charles W Pflanze
:Not only is Amway/MangaBloc in deep doo-doo litigation with magnetic
:leaders in the industry Nikken but now Amway was just served a warning
:letter from the FDA about their medical claims made with the MagnaBloc
:magnets. In other words, MagnaBloc will be shut down until they come
:into compliance. Way to go Amway. - Jim
Not to worry. They can always try something else like those silly
Charles Brown
article about them. Dr. Weil is a respected MD that is also PRO alternative
medicines.
First of all....he cited the Baylor University study. The study actually
concluded that the results were too inconsistent to be of any scientific
value.
Secondly....he said way too little is known of potential harmful effects.
His conclusion....all they are are overpriced refrigerator magnets that
might have some placebo benefit!!!!!
--
Charles E. Brown
Visit My Web Site At:
http://www.classicalcorner.com
Five Pillars of Health Digest (FPHD) <painl...@sprynet.com> wrote in
message news:37E9926A...@sprynet.com...
> Not only is Amway/MangaBloc in deep doo-doo litigation with magnetic
> leaders in the industry Nikken but now Amway was just served a warning
> letter from the FDA about their medical claims made with the MagnaBloc
> magnets. In other words, MagnaBloc will be shut down until they come
> into compliance. Way to go Amway. - Jim
>
David Steadson
how is Amway in deep doo-doo?
(2) To be honest I was a bit skeptical about the whole magnetic thereapy
thing, but there seems to have been some good research done by Vanderbilt
Uni., so time will tell. I'd be interested to know more on the FDA letter
though, and what the "claims" where? There's nothing on the FDA site.
Charles W Pflanze
:I must disagree, the laundry stones do work, if you buy the right one's.
There are no right ones, and if you cut one open, you'll find nothing
inside that has any effect on anything. The entire concept is bogus
and pseudo-science. If you paid attention in science class, you'd know.
You've been washing with warm water, which surprisingly, does a fairly
good job at cleaning clothes. Detergent will still do a much better
job.
:Been using them for years from a non-MLM manufacturer. As for the MangaBloc
:(whatever that is/does??) why don't they just redesign it and rename it.
More pseudoscience. Magnets do nothing therapeutic. Not a shred of
evidence anywhere that they do.
Charles W Pflanze
:(2) To be honest I was a bit skeptical about the whole magnetic thereapy
:thing, but there seems to have been some good research done by Vanderbilt
:Uni., so time will tell. I'd be interested to know more on the FDA letter
:though, and what the "claims" where? There's nothing on the FDA site.
Amway can sell quackery like MagnaBloc because it already sells to a
gullible group who'll believe and buy just about anything they're told
to. There is no research showing any benefit to magnets. Too bad
you can't apply your skepticism to the Amascam. You'd save yourself
a lot of time.
Five Pillars of Health Digest (FPHD)
> Btw, it was Amway who fired the first shot in the Amway-Nikken affair, not
> the other way around.
>
Bad move too because Amway claims that their magnets were infringed upon by
Nikken who's been around for 25 years with their magnets. Go figure the logic
there? So Nikken is now suing Amway for false and misleading claims in their
literature about Nikken. Why does Amway all of sudden feel threatened by
Nikken? ... unless Nikken is dominating the market place - Jim
David Steadson
has sole distribution rights to Magnabloc technology, so it's in there
interest to be a party to the suit. From what I understand Magnabloc claims
to certain patents and Nikken is infringing them. If Nikken was using the
same technology and didn't bother patenting it, then obviously there is a
problem. Magnabloc's technology is fairly specific in the way the magnets
are used, to the extent they claim their research indicates that other
magnetic therapy probably doesn't work. It may be that Nikken has followed
the research and incorporated it in to more recent products, so they only
recently infringed the patents. The courts will sort out who's right, I'm
sure.
David
Five Pillars of Health Digest (FPHD) <painl...@sprynet.com> wrote in
message news:37EACCEC...@sprynet.com...
RC Jonas
on holcombhealthcare.com showing Nikken with a 75% market share ! Also
some good reading there for the skeptics.
--
RC Jonas
VP, Schmedding & Jonas Distributing, Inc.
Distributor of Quixtar & Amway 2000 Products & Services
VisiEnterp
pie chart on holcombhealthcare.com showing Nikken with a 75% market share ! <
<snip>
Jim wrote:>Bad move too because Amway claims that their magnets were infringed
upon by Nikken who's been around for 25 years with their magnets.<
I may not be totally correct on this, but I had heard that the reason Amway
filed suit was due to the fact that Nikken had changed the arrangement of their
magnets to match the Magnabloc configuration. (i.e. bi-polar arrangment) So
this situation created a patent infringement scenario. Previously Nikken's
magnets had been just that, plain old magnets. Anyone out there have any other
info on this item?
"Wherever you see a successful business, someone once
made a courageous decision." - Peter Drucker
John Bain
> First of all....he cited the Baylor University study. The study
actually
> concluded that the results were too inconsistent to be of any
scientific
> value.
Not the study I read. The only problem was the sample size and as the
study was self funded that is not too surprising. The researchers
then got $1,000,000 for a further study which should be published next
year. How about the Weintraub diabetic neuropathy study and the
fibromyalgia study?
> Secondly....he said way too little is known of potential harmful
effects.
Absolutely, nothing is known about harmful effects although magnets
have been used for centuries.
> His conclusion....all they are are overpriced refrigerator magnets
> that might have some placebo benefit!!!!!
Well, have a look at the abstracts on my website. They rule out any
placebo effect. Modern therapeutic magnets are not fridge magnets.
How long ago was the article written?
Best wishes
John Bain
UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html
Surround Sound for Television
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Charles Brown
--
Charles E. Brown
Visit My Web Site At:
http://www.classicalcorner.com
John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7sj9to$c90$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Veronique
>
> More pseudoscience. Magnets do nothing therapeutic. Not a shred of
> evidence anywhere that they do.
Au contraire, mon cher. They have studied magnetic therapy with horses,
large expensive animals who are unlikely to exhibit a placebo effect
merely because they bought the damned things. The findings in "Horse
Journal" Vol 6 No 3, March 1999 were:
"Our Conclusions About Magnetic Therapy
1. We prefer conventional treatments over magnets for acute injuries.
2. Magnets may ease the pain of some chronic problems, such as
arthritis, on some horses. Sensitivity to magnets varies widely.
3. Pulsed magnets give more effect overall than static magnets [Amway
sells static magnets, my note], but they are much more costly and less
convenient to use.
4. Static magnets must be place directly on the area to be treated, or
they will not help. The less deep/dense the injury, the better. A
magnetic device that fits poorly will have decreased effect.
5. Overall, static magnets will only help for the time they are in
place.
6. Bell boots with magnets don't seem to be as effective on pain relief
as other magnetic therapy devices [these would affect the hooves of the
horse, not a problem with people!].
7. Always rent/lease a magnetic therapeutic device before using it.
Response to magnetic therapy is highly individualized, and some horses
will experience minimal-to-no effect."
Over a test period of 18 months, horses with chronic problems and
well-established patterns of lameness were tested. Any improvement that
occured happened within five days. There was no advantage to keeping the
therapy going if there wasn't a response within this time period.
I haven't any idea how Amway markets their magnets, and I certainly
would not trust the hyperbole, but there does seem to be some evidence
that magnetic therapy can have a therapeutic ef
med...@my-deja.com
magnets do not work for serious illnesses. (True statement
for Amway's and similar magnets).But saying magnets in
general do not work for serious illness is very incorrect.
Really it is just the same as the people who say that there
is no proof it works, no studies, etc., when actually there
are stacks and stacks of them, from all over the world. Many
countries are ahead of us in acceptance, and insurance and
government programs pay for magnetic therapy. Russia has
done many experiments and relies heavily on pulsed magnetic
therapy, but they have not taken advantage of the vitally
important distinction between the two poles and how they act
on living systems.
Magnetic fields do not stop at muscles and joints, etc.,
Sufficiently large and strong magnets or pulsing equipment
can penetrate right through you and of course affect
everything in the way. If curing cancer, atherosclerosis,
avoiding the develop.ment of third degree burns, etc., or
even regrowing the tips of fingers in children is not
handling something serious, then magnets are not good for
anything serious!
There are more reliable sources of information than the
Internet, though.
I have worked with magnets for nine years. In the beginning
I learned about this from the multi level company that does
the most business in this field , Nikken, but a little study
led me to information that the MLM companies do not want
their distributors trying to deal with (and with good
reason). It would drive their lawyers crazy.
I have had many important successes using magnets. These
are
not, for the most part, magnet appliances sold through
catalogues, etc., but larger magnets, many of which I bought
industrially. But I have had good results with the German
flexible magnets such as Nikken used to use (until they
could
get one of their own manufacture to offer). Whiplash
treatment (90% cured in 7 days) and a fellow who had already
had one hip replacement and was due for another, avoided the
operation and pain went away after two months of constant
use of the big flex magnet designed for the small of the
back. (He used in on his hip.) I would have preferred that
he would have also used all negative some, but he got the
results he wanted anyway. (This is the same magnet as used
in the Baylor study on pain in polio patients).
Compared to anything else that work, magnets (or magnetic
pulsing instruments), are pretty simple to understand and
use. Still, they require study, and although properly used,
there are no side effects, you can still screw up.
Albert Roy Davis was a genius physicist who made the
original
key discovery that has brought about modern biomagnetics.
The discovery was in 1936, regarding the difference in how
the negative and the positive magnetic fields affect living
systems.
Extensive studies with rodents followed, implanting them
with
some 90 different types of cancers and curing over 70%.
These experiments were replicated in various locations, and
there was a Madeline Bartholny of the U. of Illinois who did
something similar, but had no luck with breast cancer.
This works by activating oxidoreductase enzymes were. for
some reason they were not functioning. Negative mag. energy
seems to be an activator for them. Molecular oxygen is
released from the products of ATP phosphorilation (energy
conversion), the acidic products of the reaction broken
down.
Since we need oxygen to continue this reaction, (which
repeats over and over very fast), but cancer cells viruses,
anaerobic bacteria, funguses, protazoas, etc., use a
different system that is fermentative and actually they
cannot tolerate oxygen and alkalinity, the cancer is killed
and the surrounding area is even improved. Cell Specific
Cancer Treatment Centers (three overseas locations), use a
fancy pulsing magnetic machine to give treatments over about
5 weeks, and this is their sole method to reduce the tumor
mass, although they have various holistic approaches to
build up immunity and stop recurrence.
As this kind of operation spreads it will be harder and
harder for the medical establishment to ignore this. There
is a lot at stake financially, cancer treatment is a multi
billion dollar business, and this just one tin that magnetic
fields work for.
Of course I do not expect most people to take this
seriously. But if health and the prevention of degenerative
disease is important, I suggest you read such as
"Biomagnetic Handbook" by Philpott, "Discovery of Magnetic
Health" by Washnis and Hriszak, Any book by Albert Roy Davis
and Walter Rawls (except "Rainbow..." Or "Treating with
Magnets" by Gary Null, or "The Invisible Force" by Rinker.
Libraries usually have one or two of these or they can get
one from a nearby library, and of course they are sold by
the booksellers on the Internet.
In the past when magnets became popular the opportunists
came in with cheap. products that didn't work and ended the
interest.
The same thing is happening today. But now the magnets are
far better, the knowledge is far, far, more, and there is
instrumentation that can track what is going on in the body
with them.
Look on the internet under "Biomagnetic" for some more
learned discussions. And remember, magnets are key to
prevention, and magnetic field deficiency is the most
serious deficiency facing man. (The earth's field is
decreasing about 5% per 100 years, and besides that, we
don't work or sleep on the ground as much these days.
Alternating magnetic fields of 60 cycles add to the
problem, although apparently a strong negative field can
overide this. Anyway, avoid electric blankets, TV's near
your bed, etc., and the better, low radiation computer
monitors are something to consider if you do a lot on your
computer.
I note that I have not had a headache in three years, since
sleeping with large magnets on my headboard, although I used
to get them all the time, and I did not decide to use
magnets that way for that reason.
A comment about Amway and the FDA: I am not familiar with
the actual case, but you can only make medical statements
where they are backed up by studies, published in peer
review journals, etc. For instance, since the Baylor and
New Your Medical School studies you can make claims
regarding pain that you could not before. While much work
was done with cancer on animals, and there have been many
"anecdotal cases" there have been no major studies in this
country (there have in Russia), so you cannot say you are
selling a magnet that cures cancer. This goes for
all sorts of claims, and if you are claiming pain relief and
you don't have the same kind of magnets, being used for the
same kind of pain as in studies from Baylor, etc., you are
not supposed to make the claim.
But of course, if you are not selling anything (as I am
not), then they can't stop you!
Veronique
Chuckie, darling,
As I said in my earlier post, there is some evidence for a therapeutic
use of magnets in horses. Unfortunately, you are quite correct in
Amway's hype overshadowing (and certainly discrediting) any possible
credibility in using them. And in fact, the magnetic therapies that seem
to work use pulsed magnets not static ones like Magnabloc.
Ciao,
Veronique
--
The Boast of Heraldry, the Pomp of Pow'r,
And all the Beauty, all that Wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike th' inevitable hour.
The Paths of Glory lead but to the Grave. (Thoma
John Bain
any
> > placebo effect. Modern therapeutic magnets are not fridge magnets.
> > How long ago was the article written?
Then he is either an incompetent researcher or he has his own agenda.
There was another article recently written by someone after publicity
for a book who said similar things and also had not heard of the
Weintraub diabetic neuropathy pain study. It's easy enough to find, a
double blind study which had 90% of the participants with statistically
significant pain relief using magnetic insoles. Dr Weintraub is now
heading a multi-site follow-up study. The study was published in the
American Journal of Pain Management.
Best wishes
John Bain
UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html
Surround Sound for Television
David Steadson
Read the research, www.holcombhealthcare.com and the links to Vanderbilt
University. They are not just standard static magnets. The Vandebilt
research indicates that to have a pain-blocking effect you need a magnetic
field of very high localised gradient, hence the multiple opposing pole
design of magnabloc. It may be that this design simulates the effect you
are reporting with pulse magnets. I have no idea about the claimed "fda
letter", I've not been able to find a word about it anywhere except the one
person who posted it here, but the magnabloc claims I've heard are heavily
backed by research.
Veronique <veroniq...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7sn0n8$nt8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
SiteM...@aol.com
rcj...@nospamuswest.net writes:
<< The govt. cannot shut down a business with "a warning letter" !
Could you please post your source of this information ?
--
RC Jonas >>
I didn't make the original post, and I can't recall the source right
off...but, I have read a couple of stories in the last day or so that Amway
was issued a "cease and desist" order to stop making health claims for the
MagnaBloc products and to change the product packaging.
Jim
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Charles Brown
Vanderbilt University study!!!
--
Charles E. Brown
Visit My Web Site At:
http://www.classicalcorner.com
John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7sogot$pg5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Charles Brown
The moment an article gets cited that casts the least amount of doubt on
Amway...the immediate response is:
1) The person making the statements (or the research) is incompetent.
2) The research has a hidden agenda.
3) Amway could not possibly be wrong
The fact that Dr. Weil is a noted practitioner in alternative medicines, has
many books out on the subject, frequently appears on radio and television,
etc. means absolutely nothing to this person.
And he makes this statement before he knows the source, or the competence,
of the report. Yep, there it is!!! LOL
This summarizes the Amway mentality better than anything...ROFLMAO!!!! LOL
Charles Brown
here:
The researcher who conducted the study, Carlos
Vallbona, M.D., a professor of rehabilitation
medicine, admits he doesn't know the exact
reason magnets lessen pain, but he did suggest
that electromagnetic fields may somehow alter
pain receptors so they don't process pain signals
normally. Other theories include a claim that
magnets work by interacting with the iron in
blood cells and improve the blood's
oxygen-carrying ability; that they stimulate nerve
endings; or they modify electrical processes in
the body.
I have seen variable success among patients who
have tried magnet therapy for pain relief.
Magnets seem to work for some people but not
for others. No one knows for sure how and why
they work in these instances -- and whether there
are possible adverse effects. I recommend that
you try other, more tested remedies for low back
pain, such as acupuncture, stress reduction,
manipulation by osteopaths or chiropractors, and
yoga to strengthen the back, promote flexibility,
and neutralize stress. I also recommend reading
"Healing Back Pain: The Mind-Body Connection,"
by John Sarno, M.D. (Warner Books, 1991).
And at no point did I render a judgement....I only stated what I read here
and invited people to read. You Ambots get so defensive!!!!
Or how about this quote from him:
These products are quite
expensive, and since the claims are unproven, I
really can't recommend magnet therapy.
Or try this link:
http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/ramey/magnet.html
Which concludes by saying:
Explanations that magnetic fields "increase circulation," "reduce
inflammation," or "speed recovery from injuries" are
simplistic and are
not supported by the weight of experimental evidence.
The effects of
magnetic fields on body tissues are complex and appear
to vary from
tissue to tissue and from different intensities and
duration of the
magnetic field applied. The nature of the magnetic
devices make them
amenable to randomized, controlled, double-blind
studies that are, for
the most part, lacking. Although the therapies appear
to be harmless,
that does not also mean that they are useful.
Again...do your homework before you sound off!!!!
Veronique
"David Steadson" <dav...@ambience.com> wrote:
> Veronique,
> Read the research, www.holcombhealthcare.com and the links to
Vanderbilt
> University. They are not just standard static magnets. The Vandebilt
> research indicates that to have a pain-blocking effect you need a
magnetic
> field of very high localised gradient, hence the multiple opposing
pole
> design of magnabloc. It may be that this design simulates the effect
you
> are reporting with pulse magnets. I have no idea about the claimed
"fda
> letter", I've not been able to find a word about it anywhere except
the one
> person who posted it here, but the magnabloc claims I've heard are
heavily
> backed by research.
Why hello, David!
Interesting. There is definitely a lot of room out there for more study.
When challenged by a practitioner in California about the Horse
Journal's claims for magnetic therapy, they repeated their experiments
on normal and abnomal horse legs using a wrap with static magnets and
one with a non-magnetic piece of plastic the same shape & size as the
magnets. There was no difference in circulation on the normal legs, but
sweating occured on the abnormal legs with the static magnetic wrap,
indicating a possible increase in circulation. Similarly with the pulse
magnets, sweating occurred directly under the treatment coil, but only
if the machine was turned on. I do see that one of the horse blankets
was manufactured by Nikken: it was effective but less satisfactory than
one manufactured by Equine Magnetic Therapy.
A study by this practitioner using radioactive-labeled red blood cells
found no difference with the use of static magnets. However (and I am
paraphrasing) that particular technique does not measure circulation or
flow of blood, only pools such as hematomas. I would love to see more
studies on the possible therapeutic effects in animals. Regarding humans
(and Amway), there are far too many "true believers" for me to easily
trust the rhetoric.
Veronique
--
The Boast of Heraldry, the Pomp of Pow'r,
And all the Beauty, all that Wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike th' inevitable hour.
The Paths of Glory lead but to
David Steadson
1) anyone who disagrees with him is an Ambot. I'm fairly certain John Bain
isn't in Amway Charles, he certainly hasn't said he is. Since Magnabloc
isn't available in the UK, then you're probably way of the mark. Try again.
2) any research Charles Brown reads is right, any conflicting data results
in abuse and derision. For an idea about the credibility of Dr Andrew Weil
as a medical researcher, here's a quote -
"I agree with you that the recent news on therapeutic touch has been
disturbing. The name "therapeutic touch," or "TT" for short, is something of
a misnomer, since it usually does not involve actual touch. Instead,
practitioners (mostly registered nurses) use their hands as sensors to
assess and balance the energy field surrounding the body in order to promote
our own natural ability to heal. Some call this energy field an aura, others
familiar with Asian healing arts know this energy as "Chi." It's the energy
your body radiates by being alive, flowing within you and without you."
source: http://www.pathfinder.com/drweil/archiveqa/0,2283,1430,00.html
3) huhuh, Amway could never be wrong. Show me one quote where somebody has
said this? I'll show you the dozens where I've said I think Amway has taken
the wrong path.
Dr Andrew Weil is not a credible source of data, imho, but since you seem to
think he is Charles, here's what he had to say about Magnetic Therapy on 13
September 1999 -
"Of the handful of studies that have looked into its effects, the most
reputable one was conducted in 1997 at Baylor College of Medicine in
Houston. Researchers tested magnet therapy on 50 patients with post polio
syndrome, a condition characterized by severe joint and muscle pain. All of
the patients taped a small object, about the size of a credit card, on the
most painful spots on their body. About half of the patients were given
magnets and the other half were given placebos cards (nonmagnetized objects
that looked the same). Of those treated with real magnets, 76 percent
reported less pain -- only 19 percent of those who received the placebos had
the same results. "
source: http://www.pathfinder.com/drweil/archiveqa/0,2283,1619,00.html
So there's Charles, off again quoting information he either hasn't read or
doesn't understand. This summarises the Charles E Brown mentality quite well
I think.
David
Charles Brown <clm...@cybernex.net> wrote in message
news:IORH3.816$Qw4....@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
> By the way all...NOTICE THE AMBOT MENTALITY!!!!
>
> The moment an article gets cited that casts the least amount of doubt on
> Amway...the immediate response is:
>
> 1) The person making the statements (or the research) is incompetent.
>
> 2) The research has a hidden agenda.
>
> 3) Amway could not possibly be wrong
>
> The fact that Dr. Weil is a noted practitioner in alternative medicines,
has
> many books out on the subject, frequently appears on radio and television,
> etc. means absolutely nothing to this person.
>
> And he makes this statement before he knows the source, or the competence,
> of the report. Yep, there it is!!! LOL
>
> This summarizes the Amway mentality better than anything...ROFLMAO!!!!
LOL
>
> --
> Charles E. Brown
>
> Visit My Web Site At:
> http://www.classicalcorner.com
>
> John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:7sogot$pg5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > "Charles Brown" <clm...@cybernex.net> wrote:
> > > John Bain <JBa...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > > Well, have a look at the abstracts on my website. They rule out
> > any
> > > > placebo effect. Modern therapeutic magnets are not fridge magnets.
> > > > How long ago was the article written?
> > > This past week.
> >
> > Then he is either an incompetent researcher or he has his own agenda.
> > There was another article recently written by someone after publicity
> > for a book who said similar things and also had not heard of the
> > Weintraub diabetic neuropathy pain study. It's easy enough to find, a
> > double blind study which had 90% of the participants with statistically
> > significant pain relief using magnetic insoles. Dr Weintraub is now
> > heading a multi-site follow-up study. The study was published in the
> > American Journal of Pain Management.
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> > John Bain
> > UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
> > http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html
> > Surround Sound for Television
> >
> >
David Steadson
They make no claims regarding circulation at all. Magnabloc claims to block
the transmission of pain, which is considerably different.
David
(so nice to see you here veronique! :-)
Veronique <veroniq...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7spcr6$ctn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <OLHH3.59$il4.5...@news0.optus.net.au>,
<snip>
David Steadson
then gave his *opinion* that they didn't. This from a man who believes in
therapeutic not-quite-touch, for which as far as I'm aware there is *no*
supportive scientific research and plenty that shows it doesn't work.
You also claimed -
"First of all....he cited the Baylor University study. The study actually
concluded that the results were too inconsistent to be of any scientific
value."
Neither Dr Wiels or the original study said any such thing. In fact -
"The majority of patients in the study who received treatment with a magnet
reported a significant decrease in pain, and most of the patients who were
given a placebo, or inactive magnet, reported very little or no
improvement," says principal investigator Dr. Carlos Vallbona.
source: http://www.bcm.tmc.edu/tmc/tmcnews/12_15_97/page_08.html
So you actually created a few conclusions there all by yourself, Charles.
The other article, at http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/ramey/magnet.html is an
excellent one, however it fails to review *any* of the research published by
the research team at Vanderbilt University. This is a major oversite. The
Vanderbilt research indicates that the majority of magnets have very little
effect, however in specific cases, ie steep gradiant from opposing poles,
there is an apparent pain-relief effect. They have even proposed a
biological mechanism for this. Incidentally this mechanism isn't discussed
at all in the Ramey review. Ramey is actually a Vetenarian and did not
review any of Vanderbilts published reports, so his conclusions cannot be
safely applied to any products produced from the Vanderbilt research, such
as Magnabloc. For example, as you quote -
"Explanations that magnetic fields "increase circulation," "reduce
inflammation," or "speed recovery from injuries" are simplistic and are not
supported by the weight of experimental evidence."
This is completely and utterly irrelvant as MagnaBloc does not claim to do
any of those things. What a surprise to see you filling the newsgroup with
posts that have nothing to do with the topic, Charles!
I have managed to track down David Ramey's email address and have asked his
opinion on the Vanderbilt research. I'll let you know his reply.
David
Charles Brown <clm...@cybernex.net> wrote in message
news:W2WH3.906$Qw4....@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
John Bain
> By the way all...NOTICE THE AMBOT MENTALITY!!!!
I apologise to Dr Weill, I thought that you had reported what he had
said. You didn't cite a link so I couldn't check it.
I have no connection with Amway at all, I speak up to refute anyone who
misrepresents magnotherapy as you did.
Best wishes
John Bain
UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html
Surround Sound for Television
Charles Brown
is very little hard and objective evidence that they really work and what
other forces may be at work. The efficacy of these things are really at
question.
But Ambots have no difficulty in selling these things while making sweeping
arguments about their effectiveness. Yes, I know the appropriate disclaimers
are printed in the literature in sub-automic print sizes. But you now have a
bunch of people that can barely sell soap-suds now prescribing medical
remedies and charging a couple of hundred bucks for a product that may or
may not work. At the same time playing up to peoples weaknesses.
I have a bad back. I cannot tell you how many Ambots told me blanketly to
buy the magnets and it would help my condition (practicing medicine without
a permit). I did the research on the net and found the mixed reports. I
tried them for 3-months with absolutely 0 effect.
Alright...for me a couple of hundred bucks is no big deal. But again, it
doesn't take an awful lot of imagination to see the potential about this
deal. At least they should make ALL the information available in order to
help the consummer make an intelligent decision.
That thing is a lawsuit waiting to happen...bigtime!!!!
John Bain
> A study by this practitioner using radioactive-labeled red blood cells
> found no difference with the use of static magnets. However (and I am
> paraphrasing) that particular technique does not measure circulation
or
> flow of blood, only pools such as hematomas. I would love to see more
> studies on the possible therapeutic effects in animals. Regarding
humans
> (and Amway), there are far too many "true believers" for me to easily
> trust the rhetoric.
Hi Veronique,
You might be interested in these Thermographic Camera shots
http://home1.gte.net/infrared/theramag.htm
(wait for the photos to animate.
David Steadson
I've been having a great email conversation today with Dr David Ramey, the
vet who did the metaanalysis of magnet therapy research. There *is* actually
an awful lot of magnet therapy research out there. Some of it seems to have
decent methodology, some if it is blatant quackary. As an ex-research
scientist the biggest issue I found was that next to no studies had been
duplicated. They all studied different types of magnets and looked for
different effects. Without decent replication, by different research
groups, it is difficult to make any sound scientific judgement. Having said
that,. the studies that, on the surface, looked to have the most scientific
validity, do tend to support some sort of effect, they're just not sure what
or how - and they haven't been replicated.
Regarding Magnabloc, I fairly extensively studied their site and data again
today. The *only* claim they make is that it can block pain in some cases.
If any Amway distributors are saying more than this, then they need to
actually go and learn about what they are selling. The Vanderbilt studies
backing Magnabloc all *look* pretty good, however, from this side of the
Pacific I have no knowledge of whether Vanderbilt has a good reputation for
solid research, or if they're a second-rate outfit. I'd appreciate some
info on this if anybody knows?
So, the overall research is a mess. The Vanderbilt studies look impressive.
Magnabloc itself makes no claim other than it can block pain and may not
work for all people. Me, I want some more research, but I'm not going to
instantly label it as quackery just because I don't understand it.
David
Charles Brown <clm...@cybernex.net> wrote in message
news:QA1I3.990$Qw4....@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
Charles Brown
But it does not take an awful lot of imagination to see how many of these
Amway people, in their company encouraged enthusiasm, can be setting
themselves, and Amway/Quixtar, up for some real big problems.
I am not sure that Amway is being all that wise in promoting them as
enthusiastically as they are.
BTW...Vanderbilt is pretty respected for scientific research!!!
Charles Brown
zero benefit from it. A friend tried it for headaches and got no benefit.
I personally think, like Dr. Weil, that it is WAY over priced with very
little scientific validity!!!
James Andrews
that has magnets in it and it helps her ankle tremendously. She had a
severe break in her ankle a few years ago that never healed quite right
and has pain if she does not wear it. Magnets do work for some people
but I don't know why it doesn't for others.
Charles Brown
It's the not knowing part that bothers me so much. I have a lot of problems
representing a medical product without a lot firmer information in the
arsenal.
I can't help wondering if it is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Charles Brown
other attorneys brought up an interesting point;
With the blanket claims and enthusiasm it is entirely within the realm of
possibility that someone could use the magnets thinking they have one
ailment while, in reality, something more serious is going on..even to the
point of delaying potentially life-saving treatment.
Now..I will grant that this would probably be an extreme case and that Amway
has all the appropriate disclaimers on the literature, but it doesn't take a
lot of imagination to see the damage it could cause to all involved.
Veronique
The horse study did quote Vanderbilt (and was ambivalent, what's the
use?)--re: pain, the lessening of lameness and increased range of motion
of the horses treated indicated that the horses' pain was lessened. Pain
is an indicator, after all, of Something Happening. The question, I
think, is what is that something, and can magnets affect it
(positively)? Pain is so subjective after all.
But perhaps you say that Magnabloc works along nerve pathways and not
the circulatory system?
But mon cher David, where is your website? I cannot reach it at all!
(Although it seems as if the same four people are posting whatever site
one picks. Only the pseudonyms differ. Except for you, of course.)
Alors,
Veronique
> > A study by this practitioner using radioactive-labeled red blood
cells
> > found no difference with the use of static magnets. However (and I
am
> > paraphrasing) that particular technique does not measure circulation
or
> > flow of blood, only pools such as hematomas. I would love to see
more
> > studies on the possible therapeutic effects in animals. Regarding
humans
> > (and Amway), there are far too many "true believers" for me to
easily
> > trust the rhetoric.
> >
> > Veronique
> > --
> > The Boast of Heraldry, the Pomp of Pow'r,
> > And all the Beauty, all that Wealth e'er gave,
> > Awaits alike th' inevitable hour.
> > The Paths of Glory lead but to
> >
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
>
>
--
The Boast of Heraldry, the Pomp of Pow'r,
And all the Beauty, all that Wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike th' inevitable hour.
The Paths of Glory lead but to
Veronique
"Charles Brown" <clm...@cybernex.net> wrote:
> I am not an expert in this area either...and research is, at best,
erractic.
>
> But it does not take an awful lot of imagination to see how many of
these
> Amway people, in their company encouraged enthusiasm, can be setting
> themselves, and Amway/Quixtar, up for some real big problems.
>
> I am not sure that Amway is being all that wise in promoting them as
> enthusiastically as they are.
>
> BTW...Vanderbilt is pretty respected for scientific research!!!
>
> --
> Charles E. Brown
>
the practitioner challenging the horse studies was, you guessed it, Dr.
David Ramey. He's a supporter of the National Council Against Health
Fraud (another site for you to look up, David, I'm sure!)
Cheers,
Vero
Veronique
therapeutic change was seen within 5 days, then longer treatment did not
cause a change. For anyone experimenting with magnets, leasing or
borrowing the wraps should definitely be the first step, as they are a
complete waste of money if you are a non-responder--and do we know what
percentage of the population responds? 50%? More? Less?
You see, this is a key to be unraveled with more study. And extolling
the virtues of magnets as a blanket cure is likely to label you a fraud
if, like Monsignor Brown, you take the financial plunge and find them to
be of no benefit.
Ta ta,
Veronique
James Andrews <j.an...@casinoairlink.com> wrote:
> I don't know about Magnabloc or Nikken but my wife has an ankle wrap
> that has magnets in it and it helps her ankle tremendously. She had a
> severe break in her ankle a few years ago that never healed quite
right
> and has pain if she does not wear it. Magnets do work for some people
> but I don't know why it doesn't for others.
>
> Charles Brown wrote:
> >
> > Frankly, as I stated in another post, I have tried the stuff myself
and got
> > zero benefit from it. A friend tried it for headaches and got no
benefit.
> >
> > I personally think, like Dr. Weil, that it is WAY over priced with
very
> > little scientific validity!!!
> >
> > --
> > Charles E. Brown
> >
> > Visit My Web Site At:
> > http://www.classicalcorner.com
>
--
The Boast of Heraldry, the Pomp of Pow'r,
And all the Beauty, all that Wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike th' inevitable hour.
The Paths of Glory lead but to the Grave. (
David Steadson
> Bonjour David!
Bonjour mademoiselle!
>
> But perhaps you say that Magnabloc works along nerve pathways and not
> the circulatory system?
Theres a number of the research papers available at
http://www.holcombhealthcare.com Much better to read them yourself than to
suffer from my misinterpretations.
> But mon cher David, where is your website? I cannot reach it at all!
> (Although it seems as if the same four people are posting whatever site
> one picks. Only the pseudonyms differ. Except for you, of course.)
Yes, funny how us dishonest, unethical, Amway distributors are the only ones
willing to actually use our real names! :-) I'm moving my servers all
around at the moment, so they'll be a bit up and down for a couple of days.
cheers!
David
David Steadson
<snip>
>
> I second Chas' assessment of Vanderbilt's scientific credibility. BTW,
> the practitioner challenging the horse studies was, you guessed it, Dr.
> David Ramey. He's a supporter of the National Council Against Health
> Fraud (another site for you to look up, David, I'm sure!)
>
> Cheers,
> Vero
yes, I've been exchanging emails with Dr Ramey for a couple of days now.
He's pretty firmly of the belief there's no legitimacy to magnetic therapy.
I asked him if he was aware of the Vanderbilt studies and he said he was,
I'm not sure why they weren't included in his review, ( at
http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/ramey/magnet.html) Its actually a pretty good
review, except for the research its missing! The problem is that there seems
to be plenty of research in the field, many supportive of *some* sort of
effect, but there has been next to no replication of studies. Nearly all the
studies use different magnet types and configuration and research different
effects (eg pain relief, blood circulation, inflammation decrease, humans,
horses, rats etc etc). As a scientist it is difficult to make judgements
without replicated data. In my opinion, decent, replicatable, controlled
studies will show a benefit for certain types of magnets. Dr Ramey believes
if it hasn't been proved yet, it won't be, which to me is a bit of a narrow
view of the advancement of scientific research! In any case, hopefully time
will tell which of us is correct.
David
Veronique
"David Steadson" <dav...@ambience.com> wrote:
> yes, I've been exchanging emails with Dr Ramey for a couple of days
now.
> He's pretty firmly of the belief there's no legitimacy to magnetic
therapy.
> I asked him if he was aware of the Vanderbilt studies and he said he
was,
> I'm not sure why they weren't included in his review, ( at
> http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/ramey/magnet.html) Its actually a pretty
good
> review, except for the research its missing!
Possibly why he felt they were not appropriate to include, although one
would surely think he would have had access to the research (as a
legitimate reviewer), even if it's not on the web.
> The problem is that there seems
> to be plenty of research in the field, many supportive of *some* sort
of
> effect, but there has been next to no replication of studies. Nearly
all the
> studies use different magnet types and configuration and research
different
> effects (eg pain relief, blood circulation, inflammation decrease,
humans,
> horses, rats etc etc). As a scientist it is difficult to make
judgements
> without replicated data. In my opinion, decent, replicatable,
controlled
> studies will show a benefit for certain types of magnets.
In addition to repeatability, the question of why some people/animals
respond and some don't will have to be addressed as well.
> Dr Ramey believes
> if it hasn't been proved yet, it won't be, which to me is a bit of a
narrow
> view of the advancement of scientific research! In any case, hopefully
time
> will tell which of us is correct.
>
> David
Oh, I agree, mon cher David (despite my nom d' ordinateur), that given
the anecdotal evidence that magnets work --in some cases-- more
scientific study needs to be done. As a scientist I know that there is a
fine line between wasting one's time reexamining the obvious and
refuting what everybody takes for granted. Of course, in the mean time I
am sure that as an honest, ethical Amway distributor, you will make sure
to remind your clients of the infamous Amway Money-Back Guarantee so
that they may return them in a week's time if they have no resonse!
Adeiu!
Veronique
--
The Boast of Heraldry, the Pomp of Pow'r,
And all the Beauty, all that Wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike th' inevitable hour.
The Paths of Glory lead but to th
anonymous
David Steadson <dav...@ambience.com> wrote in message
news:MfXH3.47$Tg7.4...@news0.optus.net.au...
> Andrew Wiels quoted apparently good research stating that magnets worked,
> then gave his *opinion* that they didn't. This from a man who believes in
> therapeutic not-quite-touch, for which as far as I'm aware there is *no*
> supportive scientific research and plenty that shows it doesn't work.
>
It is amusing to hear you and Charles debate this issue, especially without
clarifying the credentials of at least one of the people you quote, so here
is the run-down on Dr. Andrew Weil (whom I happen to know):
Andrew Weil received an A.B. degree in biology (botany) from Harvard and an
M.D. from Harvard Medical School. After completing a medical internship at
Mt. Zion Hospital in San Francisco, he worked a year with the National
Institute of Mental Health, then published his first book, 'The Natural
Mind'. From 1971-75, as a Fellow of the Institute of Current World Affairs,
Dr. Weil traveled throughout North and South America and Africa, collecting
information on drug use in other cultures, medicinal plants, and alternative
methods of treating disease. From 1971-86 he was also on the research staff
of the Harvard Botanical Museum and conducted investigations of medicinal
and psychoactive plants.
Dr. Weil is Director of the Program in Integrative Medicine at The
University of Arizona College of Medicine, were he teaches alternative
medicine, mind/body interactions, and medical botany. He holds appointments
as Clinical Professor of Medicine and Clinical Assistant Professor of Family
and Community Medicine. Dr. Weil is also the founder of the Center for
Integrative Medicine, a not-for-profit scientific and educational foundation
dedicated to creating new paradigms of medicine for the 21st century.
Dr. Weil is the author of many scientific and popular articles and of seven
books: 'The Natural Mind'; 'The Marriage of the Sun and Moon'; 'From
Chocolate to Morphine; 'Health and Healing'; 'Natural Health, Natural
Medicine'; and two international best sellers, 'Spontaneous Healing' and
'Eight Weeks to Optimum Health'. He publishes a monthly newsletter entitled
'Self Healing' and has a site on the net at www.drweil.com.
A frequent lecturer, Dr. Weil is an internationally recognized *expert on
alternative medicine*.
[Source: University of Arizona School of Medicine, Tucson, Arizona]
But hey, Nikken and Amway distributors of magnets probably know more then he
does, right?
anonymous
--
There are two rules for success in life:
1. Do not tell people everything you know
2. Play to your strength
Charles Brown
painful at times. Interestingly enough, the only therapy that has any
success with me is accupuncture. As I result, I have become more receptive
to holistic medicine.
My physician was a student of Dr. Weil and has one foot in the traditional
medicine area and the other in the alternative medicine field. As a result,
before I started, I had a full set of diagnostics so that we knew exactly
what we were dealing with. We knew there were no hidden problems.
Today, I think most holistic doctors embrace traditional diagnostic
techniques so that they know what they are dealing with.
This raises an interesting question....when someone like an Amway
distributor recommends the magnets, are they possibly crossing that line of
practicing medicine without a license.
The questions are difficult!!!!!
Veronique
"Charles Brown" <clm...@cybernex.net> wrote:
> A group of us were talking about it over coffee this morning and one
of the
> other attorneys brought up an interesting point;
>
> With the blanket claims and enthusiasm it is entirely within the realm
of
> possibility that someone could use the magnets thinking they have one
> ailment while, in reality, something more serious is going on..even to
the
> point of delaying potentially life-saving treatment.
>
> Now..I will grant that this would probably be an extreme case and that
Amway
> has all the appropriate disclaimers on the literature, but it doesn't
take a
> lot of imagination to see the damage it could cause to all involved.
>
> Charles E. Brown
I tip my hat to you, Charles, and don't think that hasn't crossed my
mind. The extravagent claims remind me just a little bit of Laetrile and
cancer cures. I suppose a brain tumor would perhaps be the most serious
condition that one could have ("painful headaches") that the using of
magnets might potentially delay prompt treatment.
But there are many other things out there that can mask potentially
serious symptoms. Aspirin and other pain-relieving over-the-counter
medications come immediately to mind. Cough suppressants. You are an
attorney, yes? If you recheck my posts you can see that none of them
advocated wholesale indiscriminate use of magnet therapy; in fact, the
only study I have a bit of faith in (the horse one, 'natch) specifically
recommends against use of magnets for acute conditions. And they don't
use them for horse headaches, but motion and lameness restrictions. The
headache thing, I have severe reservations about.
I am a cautious experimenter with holistic medicine; having gone to a
doctor because of inability to lift my arm over my shoulder and given,
you guessed it, ibuprofen (which, granted, made the pain in lifting my
arm lessen but did not restore the ability to do chin-ups, for example),
I then went to a chiropractor (despite reservations but on a friend's
recommendation) and with a course of treatments the soreness vanished to
this day. And much of the medical establishment reviles the practice of
chiropracty. But still, for me the doctor is the first stop if I have a
medical question.
Off-topic, I also question the ability of litigation to protect the
terminally stupid; as has been said, the difference between genius and
stupidity is that genius has its limits. )You may draw your own
conclusions about where Amway distributors fall along this line!) I
suppose you are right; there will be those who strap on a magnet for a
broken leg instead of visiting the emergency room. If the literature
will advise that relief with magnets must be prompt (within a week),
that acute conditions (blinding pain, say) should be seen by a doctor,
and that changes in condition ought to be evaluated as well, then
magnetic therapy may yet find its place alongside massage and physical
therapy in restoring movement.
Ciao,
Veronique
--
The Boast of Heraldry, the Pomp of Pow'r,
And all the Beauty, all that Wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike th' inevitable hour.
The Paths of Glory l
David Steadson
> to remind your clients of the infamous Amway Money-Back Guarantee so
> that they may return them in a week's time if they have no resonse!
Gee, I'll even give them 3 months! Why *infamous* by the way?
David Steadson
When Charles first posted the message I did a net search on him and a number
of the first articles I found were about him making claims about thereaputic
touch and auras. After reviewing a lot more information he seems quite
respectable. His website has lots of great information. God knows where the
tt brain explosion came from.
anonymous <anon...@stopspam.com> wrote in message
news:rv4o3d...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> David Steadson <dav...@ambience.com> wrote in message
> news:MfXH3.47$Tg7.4...@news0.optus.net.au...
> > Andrew Wiels quoted apparently good research stating that magnets
worked,
> > then gave his *opinion* that they didn't. This from a man who believes
in
> > therapeutic not-quite-touch, for which as far as I'm aware there is *no*
> > supportive scientific research and plenty that shows it doesn't work.
> >
>
Veronique
Maybe I meant the infamous Lowest Price Guarantee (which doesn't exist
in America, of course.) Or perhaps "infamous" because returning
merchandise is a pain in the derriere.
And my point, David-pal-o'-mine, is that if the things don't work after
a week, they will be unlikely to start working three months later!
Veronique
--
The Boast of Heraldry, the Pomp of Pow'r,
And all the Beauty, all that Wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike th' inevitable hour.
The Paths of Glory lead but to the Grave. (Thomas Gr
Veronique
>
> This raises an interesting question....when someone like an Amway
> distributor recommends the magnets, are they possibly crossing that
line of
> practicing medicine without a license.
>
> The questions are difficult!!!!!
>
> --
> Charles E. Brown
Ah yes. Much different for someone to self-refer themselves to magnets,
than if an Amway representative says, "I think magnetic therapy will
help your condition! Why not purchase my handy Magnablocs?"
Not quite an uninterested party (although I keep hearing stories about
doctors becoming distributors to free them from the tyranny of patients;
one can imagine the escape to Amway only to end up selling magnets and
giving free exams to avoid litigation...again, though, not an
uninterested party. Thank heavens we have lawyers like you, Charles, to
winkle out the answers!)
Veronique
--
The Boast of Heraldry, the Pomp of Pow'r,
And all the Beauty, all that Wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike th' inevitable hour.
The Paths of Glory lead but to the Grave. (Thom
David Steadson
acupuncture, even down to what physiological mechanism may be underlying it.
As for the "practising medicine without a license", I don't think thats
really an issue. If the fruit shop owner recommends an Apple for a cold, is
he doing this?
Charles Brown <clm...@cybernex.net> wrote in message
news:dezI3.242$SS2....@dfw-read.news.verio.net...
> As I have posted here before, I have arthritis of the spine, which is
quite
> painful at times. Interestingly enough, the only therapy that has any
> success with me is accupuncture. As I result, I have become more receptive
> to holistic medicine.
>
> My physician was a student of Dr. Weil and has one foot in the traditional
> medicine area and the other in the alternative medicine field. As a
result,
> before I started, I had a full set of diagnostics so that we knew exactly
> what we were dealing with. We knew there were no hidden problems.
>
> Today, I think most holistic doctors embrace traditional diagnostic
> techniques so that they know what they are dealing with.
>
> This raises an interesting question....when someone like an Amway
> distributor recommends the magnets, are they possibly crossing that line
of
> practicing medicine without a license.
>
> The questions are difficult!!!!!
>
> --
> Charles E. Brown
>
David Steadson
> In article <qlyI3.23$i72.3...@news0.optus.net.au>,
> "David Steadson" <dav...@ambience.com> wrote:
> > Veronique <veroniq...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:7stln7$ffn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > to remind your clients of the infamous Amway Money-Back Guarantee so
> > > that they may return them in a week's time if they have no resonse!
> >
> > Gee, I'll even give them 3 months! Why *infamous* by the way?
>
> Maybe I meant the infamous Lowest Price Guarantee (which doesn't exist
> in America, of course.) Or perhaps "infamous" because returning
> merchandise is a pain in the derriere.
Never had a problem, we just give it to the courier when they deliver or
order.
> And my point, David-pal-o'-mine, is that if the things don't work after
> a week, they will be unlikely to start working three months later!
I probably wouldn't even give it a week!
Charles W Pflanze
: "David Steadson" <dav...@ambience.com> wrote:
: > Gee, I'll even give them 3 months! Why *infamous* by the way?
:
: Maybe I meant the infamous Lowest Price Guarantee (which doesn't exist
: in America, of course.) Or perhaps "infamous" because returning
: merchandise is a pain in the derriere.
:
:And my point, David-pal-o'-mine, is that if the things don't work after
:a week, they will be unlikely to start working three months later!
Ambots naturally have the ability to wait a very long time before
getting results, it comes with the business.
David Steadson
Charles W Pflanze <cw...@news.utk.edu> wrote in message
news:7sunra$74m$2...@gaia.ns.utk.edu...
> Veronique (veroniq...@yahoo.com) wrote:
<snip>
> :And my point, David-pal-o'-mine, is that if the things don't work after
> :a week, they will be unlikely to start working three months later!
>
> Ambots naturally have the ability to wait a very long time before
> getting results, it comes with the business.
Well gee, Charles, I guess that means I'm not an Ambot, since I've already
replied to this message saying I wouldn't wait a week. So nice of you to
say.
David
Veronique
> > Maybe I meant the infamous Lowest Price Guarantee (which doesn't
exist
> > in America, of course.) Or perhaps "infamous" because returning
> > merchandise is a pain in the derriere.
>
> Never had a problem, we just give it to the courier when they deliver
or
> order.
The psychological part of returning items. Like the difficulty of
selling.
V
--
The Boast of Heraldry, the Pomp of Pow'r,
And all the Beauty, all that Wealth e'er gave,
Awaits alike th' inevitable hour.
The Paths of Glory lead but to the Grave. (Thomas Gr
Charles Brown
science. He is an MD himself (rehabilatative medicine) and was saying they
are only now beginning to find why it works. He was saying that the precise
placement of the needles is not a precise science. Sadly, there is a lot of
phony claims in that profession also and my accupuncturist is active in
trying to shut down the charlatans.
He feels that magnets might have some benefit and tends to lean on the
positive side but they SHOULD NOT be sold by amateurs. As he pointed out,
proper placement on the body of the correct type of magnet is a factor in
their efficacy. He also feels that amateurs selling and using them could
completely discredit the therapy.
As for practiscing without a liscense...LOL..I was raised in a neighborhood
that had a large jewish population. The cure for EVERYTHING was chicken
soup!!!!!!! AND IT WORKED!!!!!! LOL...I even had a doctor prescribe it
once!!!!!!
The problem here is that you are selling actual equipment that could be
classified as medical equipment but, it is a gray area!!!!!!
SiteM...@aol.com
writes:
<< I apologise to Dr Weill, I thought that you had reported what he had
said. You didn't cite a link so I couldn't check it.
I have no connection with Amway at all, I speak up to refute anyone who
misrepresents magnotherapy as you did. >>
My veteranarian, who is also a certified acupuncturist, uses magnetic
therapy. The acupuncture was very successful on my old dogs muscle
inflamation. The magnetic therapy was not. The Vet said that response to the
magnotherapy was not predictable...sometimes it worked on some patients,
sometimes it didn't. It was not consistant enough that he could establish
that the magnotherapy had been the thing that helped, or that the pain had
subsided on its own. But, he was willing to keep trying it as an adjunct to
medical and other means, because, in the end, if the patient (animal in his
case) got better, that was the point.
Jim
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John Bain
> My veteranarian, who is also a certified acupuncturist, uses
magnetic
> therapy. The acupuncture was very successful on my old dogs muscle
> inflamation. The magnetic therapy was not. The Vet said that response
to the
> magnotherapy was not predictable...sometimes it worked on some
patients,
> sometimes it didn't. It was not consistant enough that he could
establish
> that the magnotherapy had been the thing that helped, or that the
pain had
> subsided on its own. But, he was willing to keep trying it as an
adjunct to
> medical and other means, because, in the end, if the patient (animal
in his
> case) got better, that was the point.
Absolutely right. If you would like any more information for your
vet, let me know. There are a lot of links and references on my
website.
Best wishes
John Bain
UK TV Sound Director, magnotherapy user & distributor
http://members.aol.com/JBainSI/Magnotherapy.html
Surround Sound for Television
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Before you buy.
SiteM...@aol.com
dav...@ambience.com writes:
<< As for the "practising medicine without a license", I don't think thats
really an issue. If the fruit shop owner recommends an Apple for a cold, is
he doing this? >>
If he makes money off his recommendation, he is "practising medicine
without a license." It is the money changing hands that takes it out of the
realm of recommendation.
Jim
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fugatesr...@gmail.com
billbu...@gmail.com
> Not only is Amway/MangaBloc in deep doo-doo litigation with magnetic
> leaders in the industry Nikken but now Amway was just served a warning
> letter from the FDA about their medical claims made with the MagnaBloc
> magnets. In other words, MagnaBloc will be shut down until they come
> into compliance. Way to go Amway. - Jim
>
> --
> Yesterday is history;
> tomorrow is a mystery;
> today is a gift;
> that's why it's called the Present.
I have used MagnaBloc magnets for years for back and shoulder pain. I am a cyclist and I use them on long distance rides. I have just completed another 100-mile endurance ride and I used the magnets to combat back and neck pain during the ride. I have used these magnets since the '90s and they have enabled me to keep on doing these endurance rides. For myself, I can say these magnets work and they do what I need them to do.