Quixtar- A Refreshing View
lizle...@hotmail.com
about "How to Use the Internet to Make Money". Now I smelled scam all
over it, or a Carlton Sheets type presentation, but what I got was
incredibly refreshing.
Our presenter, Rudy Steffish, started off with one zinger of an opening,
"If any of you have seen the Amway plan, that what I am about to show
you might look very similar, and you might want to leave." No one in the
crowd got up and he continued with a full one hour forty fve minute
presentation that was not like the Amway plans I had seen in the past.
This time, Rudy was refreshingly honest about everything he talked
about. From the starting gate when he told us that Quixtar and Amway
were tied together, to the end of the presentation when he ripped off
his jacket, kicked off his shoes, pulled off his tie and screamed "I am
not trying to hide anything here tonight people", he had the crowd in
his hand.
The thing that impressed me though, wasn't that his whole presentation
was honest, (he actually confronted many of the issues posted in this
newsgroup), but that after talking for all that time, he stayed after
and sat down answering every question that was posed to him...another
hour.
He was frank when he said that he doesn't agree with the way certain
aspects of Amway were done in the past, and stood right before us and
told us about the turnover rates and everything.
Having sat through the Amway plan a couple of times for friends, I can
say that Mr. Steffish was willing and able to grab the bull by the
horns. Unlike in past presentations, he was complete and incisive.
When asked about motivational tapes, his answer was completely
unexpected. He had everybody in the room close their eyes and pretend
they were looking into their children's eyes. Without exposing more than
that, he told us that if motivational tapes and seminars don't work for
us, there are other ways to find motivation...why charge for tapes that
don't work, when he can teach us to use things that do, and are free.
He also told a story of a little league baseball that kept everybody's
attention. It was incredible, without being schmaltzy, (as in the past
when I have seen Amway done with talks of hitting the lowest point in
life then discovering God and Amway).
When my husband and I left, we talked for hours about joining...his own
brother couldn't get us to think that much about it.
If Rudy is the new face of Quixtar, then I think all of Amway's image
problems will be over. If you have the opportunity to see HIS
presentation of Quixtar you really should, If you are planning a meeting
and looking for someone to speak, I have contact information, if you
e-mail me. Trust me, and the other 23 people who stayed the course...
you won't be disappointed.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Gordon Hamm
will still need to harass people to be successful.
--
Gordon Hamm
<lizle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8cvcsh$nlo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
David Steadson
harrassed. by definition getting people to join and use the buying system is
success. therefore by definition the guy who sponsored these people is being
successful. harrassment also is defined pretty much by the "victim". these
people were not harrassed. their sponsor is succeeding. So what was it
exactly you were trying to say Gordon?
"Gordon Hamm" <gor...@yabin.com> wrote in message
news:38f3...@news1.ltinet.net...
David Steadson
out there doing similar things. of course, all the slambots on this forum
will just tell you that your experience isn't true and only their bad
experience is the one true experience. Despite the fact I posted a list of
40 Crown Ambassadors and nobody could provide me with any bad experiences
from the operations of less than 2 or 3.
So go out, be ethical, be truthful, build a great business. The more people
like you the less stories we will have to put up with of idiots doing stupid
things.
May your future bring you your dreams!
David
psychomania
presentation that seemed to be open and ethical, and really
seemed to ring true. This is the insidiousness of their
approach. Of course, once you are in, you can expect things to
change, and to be worked over for everything they can take you
for. You can also expect to be overcharged for inferior
products, and for the system to be pushed upon you, regardless
of what you heard in this "presentation".
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Gordon Hamm
honesty.
--
Gordon Hamm
David Steadson <dav...@ambience.com> wrote in message
news:tLHI4.15$%F3.7...@news0.optus.net.au...
> hmmm, so these people are apparently joining and were apparently not
> harrassed. by definition getting people to join and use the buying system
is
> success. therefore by definition the guy who sponsored these people is
being
> successful. harrassment also is defined pretty much by the "victim". these
> people were not harrassed. their sponsor is succeeding. So what was it
> exactly you were trying to say Gordon?
>
> "Gordon Hamm" <gor...@yabin.com> wrote in message
> news:38f3...@news1.ltinet.net...
> > No matter how you dress it up, it's still a crappy business opportunity.
> You
> > will still need to harass people to be successful.
> > --
> > Gordon Hamm
> >
> >
Cecil Newson
> sounds like an excellent presentation. there are actually plenty of people
> out there doing similar things. of course, all the slambots on this forum
> will just tell you that your experience isn't true and only their bad
> experience is the one true experience. Despite the fact I posted a list
of
> 40 Crown Ambassadors and nobody could provide me with any bad experiences
> from the operations of less than 2 or 3.
I don't recall that list. Could you repost it? I've met most of them, and
I'm pretty sure I can rebut your point.
>
> So go out, be ethical, be truthful, build a great business. The more
people
> like you the less stories we will have to put up with of idiots doing
stupid
> things.
Honesty is all I ever commented about. If the business is being presented
as it honestly is, then people can make their own decision, whether anyone
else agrees with it or not. My point all these many months has been that
you can't make an informed decision about the business if people are lying
to you about the real point of the business.
David Steadson
dishonest. If you're after one example, how about the one that started this
thread?
"Gordon Hamm" <gor...@yabin.com> wrote in message
news:38f3...@news1.ltinet.net...
> Amway is approximately 1% honest. Im trying to think just one example of
> honesty.
> --
> Gordon Hamm
>
> David Steadson <dav...@ambience.com> wrote in message
David Steadson
"Cecil Newson" <cne...@interaccess.com> wrote in message
news:sf7rrh...@corp.supernews.com...
> > sounds like an excellent presentation. there are actually plenty of
people
> > out there doing similar things. of course, all the slambots on this
forum
> > will just tell you that your experience isn't true and only their bad
> > experience is the one true experience. Despite the fact I posted a list
> of
> > 40 Crown Ambassadors and nobody could provide me with any bad
experiences
> > from the operations of less than 2 or 3.
>
> I don't recall that list. Could you repost it? I've met most of them,
and
> I'm pretty sure I can rebut your point.
You've met most of them? I'd appreciate it if you could give some details as
I find that claim pretty amazing. Anyway, here's the list (source:
http://www.amway40th.com) Note that these are Crown Ambassadors (20+legs),
not Crown Directs (18 legs). I suspect a lot of people get them mixed up.
1978
Jim & Sharon Janz (Canada)
1979
Charlie & Elsie Marsh (U.S.)
John McCoy (U.S.)
Chuck & Jean Strehli (U.S.)
Jerry & Sharyn Webb (U.S.)
Dan & Bunny Williams (U.S.)
Dr. Peter & Eva Müller-Meerkatz (Germany)
1980
Dallas & Betty Beaird (U.S.)
John & Pat Hendrickson (U.S.)
Frank & Rita DeLisle (U.S.)
1982
Joe & France Mas (France)
Marianne & Max Schwarz (Germany)
1985
Dick & Sandee Marks (U.S.)
1987
E.H. Erick & Midori Ito (Japan)
Kaoru Nakajima (Japan)
1991
Clement & Anita Fu (Hong Kong)
Renate Backhaus (Germany)
Shuji & Tomoko Hamamoto (Japan)
Tatsuo & Atsuko Hayashi (Japan)
Bob & Joyce Schmidt (Canada)
1994
Maria Schleipfer (Germany)
1995
H.S. Hsu & S.F. Hsieh (Taiwan)
Tsai Lung Chen & C.H. Yang (Taiwan)
1996
Nanai & Seisuke Arima (Japan)
Takeshi & Hidemi Azumi (Japan)
Kyung Ja Park & Jae Oh Joo (Korea)
Peter Lee & Choi Kit (Malaysia)
XuXu Xheng & Xie Shu Fen (China)
Ryusuke & Elaine Seto (Japan)
1997
Jim & Nancy Dornan (U.S.)
Hidekazu & Yuki Kajihara (Japan)
Morihiko & Seiko Kitakon (Japan)
Mitch & Deidre Sala (Australia)
1998
Tim & Connie Foley (U.S.)
S.C. Wang & N.K. Chien (Taiwan)
Witat & Jintana Pornjaded (Thailand)
Yoshiyuki & Mineko Yamazaki (Japan)
1999
Bill & Peggy Britt (U.S.)
Holly Chen & Barry Chi (Taiwan)
Dexter & Birdie Yager (U.S
I know of at least one more (Beverly Sallee) whom I assume is a recent
qualifier. I know she's been Crown Direct for years, but i met her in Feb in
Sweden. She was initially introduced as Crown Direct and this was corrected
to Crown Ambassador. Hans and Eva Nusshold of Austria have I think also
recently qualified. Britt and Yager not being CA until 1999 surprised me,
but thats what the site says.
> >
> > So go out, be ethical, be truthful, build a great business. The more
> people
> > like you the less stories we will have to put up with of idiots doing
> stupid
> > things.
>
> Honesty is all I ever commented about. If the business is being presented
> as it honestly is, then people can make their own decision, whether anyone
> else agrees with it or not. My point all these many months has been that
> you can't make an informed decision about the business if people are lying
> to you about the real point of the business.
No argument there. Read some saying recently that said something along the
lines of "if you always tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you
said"
subvers...@my-deja.com
to appear honest, so that people may be sucked into the system.
An honest amway presentation would start with, "if you sign up with me,
I will profit by selling you tapes and function tickets (these will be
pushed later on, regardless of what is said in the initial meeting.)
You will then be encouraged to buy overpriced products 'from your own
store', so that I may profit of that too. If you are extremely lucky,
and put in a great deal of effort, as well as alienate your friends,
family, and coworkers, perhaps you will be at a point in a couple of
years where the 'profit' you make from your sales of products to your
downline will pay for the cassette tapes and function tickets I will
ultimately push on you, if you want my help in 'building your
business'. But, more likely, you will quit out of frustration and
disgust within a year, when you realize that you have been had - just
like the people you recruit, if you do actually recruit any, will
probably do."
Now THAT would be an honest amway presentation!!!
In article <1vSI4.596$%F3.5...@news0.optus.net.au>,
"David Steadson" <dav...@ambience.com> wrote:
> Well that's a start. I'm glad to hear you think its not completely
> dishonest. If you're after one example, how about the one that
started this
> thread?
>
> "Gordon Hamm" <gor...@yabin.com> wrote in message
> news:38f3...@news1.ltinet.net...
> > Amway is approximately 1% honest. Im trying to think just one
example of
> > honesty.
> > --
> > Gordon Hamm
--
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." --
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
Glen Palo
Good post! I think we are starting to see a fundamental change in how
the business is being presented as more people like Rudy S. and the
folks behind quixsource.com emerge. His approach right up front allows
the uninterested or unmotivated to get up out of their chairs and leave
the meeting. Those that make the change from the old ways of doing
business and address the negatives so clearly pointed out on the
interenet will have a better chance of being successful. And as more
Rudy's show up and make changes for the better, the less relevant the
slambots and negative opinion sites become.
The one problem that remains regardless of how truthful, honest an IBO
is presenting the opportunity, is the fact that he/she has no way of
obtaining or validating information released by Amway Corporation.
There is no neutral third party to independently verify accuracy of
news or data put out by the company.
Glen
---------------------------------------
I have a lawyer in my back pocket.
So can you for pennies a day.
Just ask me.
---------------------------------------
Cecil Newson
"Glen Palo" <glen...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8d1m6b$70q$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Good post! I think we are starting to see a fundamental change in how
> the business is being presented as more people like Rudy S. and the
> folks behind quixsource.com emerge. His approach right up front allows
> the uninterested or unmotivated to get up out of their chairs and leave
> the meeting. Those that make the change from the old ways of doing
> business and address the negatives so clearly pointed out on the
> interenet will have a better chance of being successful. And as more
> Rudy's show up and make changes for the better, the less relevant the
> slambots and negative opinion sites become.
Those opinion sites become less relevant when the business is presented
truthfully and the AMO's stop trying to use the Amway side of the business
to create a captive buying club for the tools and seminars.
Were the tools and seminars priced as they should be and advertised
truthfully none of us would have anything to complain about.
Of course, a lot of upline would be making much less money.
Gordon Hamm
the response was "The average distributor makes less than $99.00 a year"
Right????
Anything less than this discloser is Dishonest! You will never hear this in
a meeting, but you should.
--
Gordon Hamm
Voice Data Systems Inc.
David Steadson <dav...@ambience.com> wrote in message
news:1vSI4.596$%F3.5...@news0.optus.net.au...
> Well that's a start. I'm glad to hear you think its not completely
> dishonest. If you're after one example, how about the one that started
this
> thread?
>
> "Gordon Hamm" <gor...@yabin.com> wrote in message
> news:38f3...@news1.ltinet.net...
> > Amway is approximately 1% honest. Im trying to think just one example
of
> > honesty.
> > --
> > Gordon Hamm
> >
> > David Steadson <dav...@ambience.com> wrote in message
> > news:tLHI4.15$%F3.7...@news0.optus.net.au...
> > > hmmm, so these people are apparently joining and were apparently not
> > > harrassed. by definition getting people to join and use the buying
> system
> > is
> > > success. therefore by definition the guy who sponsored these people is
> > being
> > > successful. harrassment also is defined pretty much by the "victim".
> these
> > > people were not harrassed. their sponsor is succeeding. So what was
it
> > > exactly you were trying to say Gordon?
> > >
> > > "Gordon Hamm" <gor...@yabin.com> wrote in message
> > > news:38f3...@news1.ltinet.net...
> > > > No matter how you dress it up, it's still a crappy business
> opportunity.
> > > You
> > > > will still need to harass people to be successful.
> > > > --
> > > > Gordon Hamm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > <lizle...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:8cvcsh$nlo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
J.A. Guy
>
> "Glen Palo" <glen...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8d1m6b$70q$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Good post! I think we are starting to see a fundamental change in how
> > the business is being presented as more people like Rudy S. and the
> > folks behind quixsource.com emerge.
Only, isn't Amway suing Quixsouce?
> > His approach right up front allows
> > the uninterested or unmotivated to get up out of their chairs and leave
> > the meeting. Those that make the change from the old ways of doing
> > business and address the negatives so clearly pointed out on the
> > interenet will have a better chance of being successful. And as more
> > Rudy's show up and make changes for the better, the less relevant the
> > slambots and negative opinion sites become.
>
> Those opinion sites become less relevant when the business is presented
> truthfully and the AMO's stop trying to use the Amway side of the business
> to create a captive buying club for the tools and seminars.
>
Only, without being directly tied to the promise of "success" in the core
business -- well, hypothetically, that would be selling products through
Amway, I guess -- who would buy into a motivational orgainzation?
TPN (The People's Network) was a pure *motivational tools* MLM. No hidden
agendas, and great tools. Inceadibly motived distributors, too -- so what
they offered certainly worked <g> -- but they could not make any money! When
PPL acquired TPN, and something like 80% of all the former TPN distributors
became PPL Associates, sales grew exceptionally well, and some of the most
successful Associates in the company are those who came over only 18 months
ago.
So, it is not that *motivational tools* don't work -- it's about having a
"hook" to motivate people in the *first place* to buy them. The AMO's are
not going to stand for being "de-linked" from the Amway opportunity. In
addition, if they were to have to compete in the free market, based only on
the quality of the tools they sell to a currently captive market, how much
of what they sell would survive?
If David S. is to be believed, many of the AMO selections each month are
"generally available" items. So why buy them through the AMO? But more
specifically, the motivational items that are *in-house* would now have to
compete with motivational tools from every other source -- unless the AMOs
become willing to start paying compensation rather lower in the Amway
downline organizations than they do now, what reason would a new distributor
have to get "plugged in"?
While one could still argue that motivational tools are an important, or
even essential, ingredient in one's success (in Amway or in
life-in-general), the "sell" itself (for this *specific* AMO's tools) would
carry somewhat less weight. And that would mean less sales and less money.
Having to share the compensation further downline would also negatively
effect the revenue now being paid to Directs and above, even if the volume
were to remain the same.
> Were the tools and seminars priced as they should be and advertised
> truthfully none of us would have anything to complain about.
>
Which would require that the Corp. take charge at least of the commission
and quality functions, IMHO.
I guess we will be here a while. <sigh>
> Of course, a lot of upline would be making much less money.
>
Well, there *is* that.
--
I do wish we could chat longer,
but I am having an old friend for dinner.
Dr. H. Lector
J.A. Guy
>
hack
>
> Never heard anyone ask the question during a presentation. Probably cause
> that's what the whole presentation is about. I have however heard many
many
> many many times the presenter say that most people don't make any money.
In
> any case, the answer you gave doesn't actually answer the question you
> asked.
>
>
You are beginning to sound exactly like Jerome. Only, you type in complete
sentences. You just don't actually say anything.
David Steadson
> Im sure someone in the crowd asked "How much can I make?" and Im sure that
> the response was "The average distributor makes less than $99.00 a year"
> Right????
>
> Anything less than this discloser is Dishonest! You will never hear this
in
> a meeting, but you should.
Never heard anyone ask the question during a presentation. Probably cause
Glen Palo
"Gordon Hamm" <gor...@yabin.com> wrote:
> Im sure someone in the crowd asked "How much can I make?" and Im sure
> that the response was "The average distributor makes less than $99.00
> a year"
> Right????
>
> Anything less than this discloser is Dishonest! You will never hear
this in a meeting, but you should.
>
> --
The correct question is "How much does the average distributor make?"
Then the correct answer is "The average distributor makes $XX amount a
month." No body can answer how much "YOU" are going to make.
Glen
---------------------------------------
I have a lawyer in my back pocket.
So can you for pennies a day.
Just ask me.
---------------------------------------
lizle...@hotmail.com
$88 a year!
I guess it wasn't a technical lie since that figure is "less than $99"!
See, Mr. Hamm, et al. you have also proven Rudy was right about
something else. What I got was a refreshingly honest presentation about
Quixtar, with the Amway connection fully disclosed. There was nothing he
hid from us, (He made a point to say that we would find out these things
anyway, and he would rather we found them out from him) and yet no one
who has posted here in response was at that meeting, to my knowledge.
Yet, there have been so many posts that "obviously this Rudy charecter
had to be lying and scamming" you. He wouldn't have told you about this,
nor that. Well he did! This was a different presentation than I have
seen over the years because everything was disclosed up front, there is
nothing to hide. He even showed us the start up kit and what we would
get for signing up.
Maybe there is a reason so many of you are protesting...maybe with more
Rudy's out there, (which we will all be, and comes from his upline) all
of the negativity on the internet will be revealed and will leave the
pundits nothing to chomp on. Perhaps to paraphrase the Bard "(you) doth
protest too much".
In article <38f4...@news1.ltinet.net>,
"Gordon Hamm" <gor...@yabin.com> wrote:
> Im sure someone in the crowd asked "How much can I make?" and Im sure
that
> the response was "The average distributor makes less than $99.00 a
year"
> Right????
>
> Anything less than this discloser is Dishonest! You will never hear
this in
> a meeting, but you should.
>
> --
> Gordon Hamm
> Voice Data Systems Inc.
>
Gordon Hamm
> Then the correct answer is "The average distributor makes $XX amount a
> month." No body can answer how much "YOU" are going to make.
>
> Glen
>
See, that's the difference with Amway and a NORMAL business. You are saying
that you can't project what you can and will make. Any NORMAL or REAL
business can and will give you projections. That is how you determine
whether it's a good investment of time and $$ isn't it? Fact is, Amway
presenters say absolutely NOTHING of substance, just get you pumped up.
Gordon
Gordon Hamm
> See, Mr. Hamm, et al. you have also proven Rudy was right about
> something else. What I got was a refreshingly honest presentation about
> Quixtar, with the Amway connection fully disclosed. There was nothing he
> hid from us, (He made a point to say that we would find out these things
> anyway, and he would rather we found them out from him) and yet no one
> who has posted here in response was at that meeting, to my knowledge.
> Yet, there have been so many posts that "obviously this Rudy charecter
> had to be lying and scamming" you. He wouldn't have told you about this,
> nor that. Well he did! This was a different presentation than I have
> seen over the years because everything was disclosed up front, there is
> nothing to hide. He even showed us the start up kit and what we would
> get for signing up.
>
Great! Sounds like a great opportunity for you! (I can only think of about
1000 things that are better to invest in) I think you should jump in with
both feet. I wonder if you will be that honest with your friends (Former I
should say) and family. If you are truly honest, they will never buy
anything from you. Because if you are really honest, you would say "These
are over priced products that you can buy anywhere else for less".
Gordon
subvers...@my-deja.com
lizle...@hotmail.com wrote:
> See, Mr. Hamm, et al. you have also proven Rudy was right about
> something else. What I got was a refreshingly honest presentation
about
> Quixtar, with the Amway connection fully disclosed. There was nothing
he
> hid from us, (He made a point to say that we would find out these
things
> anyway, and he would rather we found them out from him) and yet no one
> who has posted here in response was at that meeting, to my knowledge.
There is nothing new about this technique. It is called "addressing
the negatives", and is done by lawyers all the time. The trick is to
bring out the negatives you know others will bring up, while trying to
put a positive spin on them.
All your post proves is your naivete, and the fact that con artists
will evolve their presentation in response to changing conditions. Of
course, you will still totally waste your time and money if you sign up
with him.
But don't take my word for it. Prove it to yourself.
--
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." --
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
Glen Palo
When writing a business plan for starting a new business, the new
business owner doesn't base/project HIS revenues on the industry
average. His revenue estimates are based on his sales projections
which in part are determined by his marketing and advertising budgets,
production estimates etc. So why would a business opportunity seeker
base his estimated revenues on the company average? Unless he is
planning on an average business, his revenues should be based on his
goals, the amount of time he has to commit to the business and the size
of his budget. Since everyone is different, the Amway presenter has no
way of determining or projecting what an individual distributor will
make.
Glen
---------------------------------------
I have a lawyer in my back pocket.
So can you for pennies a day.
Just ask me.
---------------------------------------
subvers...@my-deja.com
Projections could be made for a hypothetcial budget and time
expenditure. Of course, for mlm's like amway and quixtar, any such
hypotheticals based upon relevant data would be way too depressing to
get anyone excited . . . .
--
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." --
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
sitem...@my-deja.com
Glen Palo <glen...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <38f5...@news1.ltinet.net>,
> "Gordon Hamm" <gor...@yabin.com> wrote:
> > > So why would a business opportunity seeker base his estimated
revenues on the company average? Unless he is planning on an average
business, his revenues should be based on his goals, the amount of time
he has to commit to the business and the size of his budget. Since
everyone is different, the Amway presenter has no way of determining or
projecting what an individual distributor will make.<<<
I'll bet a new McDonalds franchisee builds his business plan around
company averages, don't you?
Jim
J.A. Guy
<sitem...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8d5rgr$qvk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Well, actually, I'll bet that a new McDonalds franchisee is handed a
business plan by the Corp. Or rather, a bookshelf full or manuals, detailing
exactly how to do every single thing from unlocking the front door to taking
out the trash. And I'll bet that a new McDonalds franchisee has a
significant 5 figure (maybe 6 figure) financial investment, as opposed to a
couple of hundred dollars. And I'll bet that a new McDonalds franchisee is
going to work his business 18+ hours a day for the first three years, too.
Now, if you are talking about someone who is *considering* becoming a new
McDonalds franchisee... well, he or she is going to do a hell of a lot of
research on any number of Franchise Opportunities, because they have a major
dollar investment and time commitment they are evaluating. I have never met
a McDonalds franchisee who bought one looking for a part-time source of
income.
So the "business plan" is going to be:
Invest $50K to $250K, then completely immerse yourself in the McDonalds
culture, get completely plugged in to all of the McDonalds support systems,
do absolutely everything that McDonalds tells you to do, down to the
smallest detail (*forever* -- as long as you own the franchise), dedicate
yourself to 18-hour days for at least three years, and, oh by the way,
recognize that in order to make more than $150K a year (by the end of the
third year), you will need to seriously consider buying two or three more
franchises, at which point you will make somewhere around $250,000 a year in
"passive" income, because you will now have the resources to hire a real
management team, and not rely in 17 year-olds.
Now, if I could find even *one* person who was interested in Network
Marketing who was willing to do all the above -- spend $50K for
promotional/marketing materials *to start* (maybe even open a "real" office,
etc.), completely immerse himself in all of the training, attend every class
and bring at least three people every week to a Business Presentation
meeting -- work 18 hours a day, 7 days a week, making at least four sales
appointments a day and recruiting one new part-time associate a week...
well, in *one* year that person would be making over $100,000 a year on
personal sales, and another $50,000 from his overrides, and assuming he keep
at that for the whole three years, would have a "passive" income (in the
same sense as your hypothetical McDonalds franchisee does) of well over
$250,000 a year.
So, let's try to compare apples to apples, OK?
--
"When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth,
he will either quit being mistaken, or cease to be honest."
sitem...@my-deja.com
Exactly my point. Comparing a real business to an MLM is silly.
MLM's are scams.
Jim
Glen Palo
sitem...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8d5jhf$ibp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Glen Palo <glen...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <38f5...@news1.ltinet.net>,
> > "Gordon Hamm" <gor...@yabin.com> wrote:
> > > > So why would a business opportunity seeker base his estimated
> revenues on the company average? Unless he is planning on an average
> business, his revenues should be based on his goals, the amount of
time
> he has to commit to the business and the size of his budget. Since
> everyone is different, the Amway presenter has no way of determining
or
> projecting what an individual distributor will make.<<<
>
> I'll bet a new McDonalds franchisee builds his business plan around
> company averages, don't you?
>
> Jim
>
I don't think a prospective franchisee would use company averages. Too
many variables. He would have to look at specific local labor costs &
availability, land cost, construction/acquisition costs, financing
costs, local zoning and tax requirements, local licensing fees, etc.
I would expect that McDonald's has some pretty good modeling tools
available to run different senarios for the franchisee.
Glen
Glen
Gordon Hamm
> Marketing who was willing to do all the above -- spend $50K for
> promotional/marketing materials *to start* (maybe even open a "real"
office,
> etc.), completely immerse himself in all of the training, attend every
class
> and bring at least three people every week to a Business Presentation
> meeting -- work 18 hours a day, 7 days a week, making at least four sales
> appointments a day and recruiting one new part-time associate a week...
> well, in *one* year that person would be making over $100,000 a year on
> personal sales, and another $50,000 from his overrides, and assuming he
keep
> at that for the whole three years, would have a "passive" income (in the
> same sense as your hypothetical McDonalds franchisee does) of well over
> $250,000 a year.
>
>
Except, you don't need to deceive anyone to buy a BigMac. You will have to
if you ever expect anyone to buy Amway products. If your friends ask you
what you do, you won't have to bow your head in shame.
Gordon
J.A. Guy
<sitem...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8d7d1g$gog$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> MLM's are scams.
>
> Jim
>
>
Whatever, Jim. You will always see only what you want to see anyway.
J.A. Guy
> > Now, if I could find even *one* person who was interested in Network
> > Marketing who was willing to do all the above -- spend $50K for
> > promotional/marketing materials *to start* (maybe even open a "real"
> office,
> > etc.), completely immerse himself in all of the training, attend every
> class
> > and bring at least three people every week to a Business Presentation
> > meeting -- work 18 hours a day, 7 days a week, making at least four
sales
> > appointments a day and recruiting one new part-time associate a week...
> > well, in *one* year that person would be making over $100,000 a year on
> > personal sales, and another $50,000 from his overrides, and assuming he
> keep
> > at that for the whole three years, would have a "passive" income (in the
> > same sense as your hypothetical McDonalds franchisee does) of well over
> > $250,000 a year.
> >
> >
>
> if you ever expect anyone to buy Amway products. If your friends ask you
> what you do, you won't have to bow your head in shame.
>
> Gordon
>
>
I *am* sorry. What makes you think I am talking about Amway? You guys are so
narrowly focused, you can't even pay attention. Get over it. The only
difference between Ambots and Slambots is the exact nature of the shared
obsession, apparently.
J.A. Guy
>
hack
>
>
> Except, you don't need to deceive anyone to buy a BigMac. You will have to
> if you ever expect anyone to buy Amway products. If your friends ask you
> what you do, you won't have to bow your head in shame.
>
> Gordon
>
>
>
Gordon, sorry about the immediately proceeding post. I woke up cranky. <G>
--
From "Hannibal," the sequel to "The Silence of the Lambs":
Barney shook his huge head. "He told me once that, whenever it was
'feasible,' he preferred to eat the rude. 'Free range rude,' he called
them."
you know
Gordon Hamm
so
> narrowly focused, you can't even pay attention. Get over it. The only
> difference between Ambots and Slambots is the exact nature of the shared
> obsession, apparently.
>
> --
> I do wish we could chat longer,
> but I am having an old friend for dinner.
>
> Dr. H. Lector
Sorry, I must be in the wrong place.. but I did think the name of this post
was Quixtar- A Refreshing View..
Gordon
J.A. Guy
Gordon, I am sorry, my apology message didn't post from early this morning.
I didn't have enough coffee before posting the message above. <g>.
I was answering Jim, and of course, I assumed that you had followed that.
When I say "If *I* could find...", naturally, I don't mean in Amway, since I
am not *in* Amway -- but regardless, you are right, that is the Header
reference. Once again, sorry.
Oh, and only parenthetically, don't you think that people are in fact
"tricked" into buying a Big Mac -- I mean, they actually think of it as
"food".... <g>.
Veronique
>
> Gordon Hamm <gor...@yabin.com> wrote...
>
> Oh, and only parenthetically, don't you think that people are in fact
> "tricked" into buying a Big Mac -- I mean, they actually think of it as
> "food".... <g>.
Ah, J.A.G., you took the words right out of my mouth.
V.
--
Veronique Chez Sheep
Love will get you like a
case of anthrax
J.A. Guy
Veronique <veroniq...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8dajh9$tqf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> "J.A. Guy" <just...@noplace.com> wrote:
> >
> > Gordon Hamm <gor...@yabin.com> wrote...
>
>
> >
> > Oh, and only parenthetically, don't you think that people are in fact
> > "tricked" into buying a Big Mac -- I mean, they actually think of it as
> > "food".... <g>.
>
> Ah, J.A.G., you took the words right out of my mouth.
>
> V.
>
> --
> Veronique Chez Sheep
> Love will get you like a
> case of anthrax
>
>
It was only this past week, due to the lateness of the hour and the fact
that I had to go to a drug store immediately next to a McDonalds, and I was
hungry, that I actually bought a Big Mac -- for the first time in I can not
remember how long. My Sweet V., I can not express the disappointment. Taste?
None. Nutritional value? Nil. A "rip-off"? Worse than that, as I suspect it
was actually bad for me. Talk about a fraud being perpetrated on the
American public... how anyone can compare McDonalds favorably to *any* MLM
is completely beyond me! <LOL!>
David Steadson
business, he's in the real estate business, ie finding and selling real
estate to franchisees. The product ain't the product. Sound familiar? :-)
"J.A. Guy" <just...@noplace.com> wrote in message
news:sfilcs...@corp.supernews.com...
J.A. Guy
> And of course, Ray Kroc has explicitly said he's not in the hamburger
> business, he's in the real estate business, ie finding and selling real
> estate to franchisees. The product ain't the product. Sound familiar? :-)
>
Yes, it does <g>. And not to be pedantic, but at least Mr. Kroc knew that he
(well, actually the Corporation) was selling a business opportunity with a
real product that you have to buy (God only knows why anyone would, but that
is another issue!). You know, a real product, sold to real customers (not
just or even mainly only to other franchise-owners) at an actual retail
price.... (Jim is right about this).
See, Ray Kroc/McDonalds would sort of be like Amway in this relationship --
selling franchises to people so that they could then sell the products (or
services), and make money through retail sales, and coordinating the
advertising, monitoring the quality of the training, using the vast
purchasing power of it's Franchise Network to keep costs for the individual
Franchisees down, insuring that every single distributor/franchise-holder
did everything exactly the way that the Corporation, through years and years
of experience, had learned worked damn near every time in damn near every
case.
Oh, wait... that is not what Amway does at all...
At least you make a good point that without proper placement of the Store, a
McDonalds franchise is pretty worthless. And it really does depend on
location, location, location as to whether you are going to make any money
with McDonalds or not, so just plunking down the Franchise Fee no more
guarantees success with McDonalds than just becoming a distributor does in
any *MLM*. The point that Jim always seems to miss, is that if *anyone* had
the same investment, commitment and detailed plan to follow in *any*
business, including Network Marketing, they could almost *not* succeed.
Certainly, my point below is that McDonalds doesn't offer anything like a
real "quality product". <LOL>
--
"When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth,
he will either quit being mistaken, or cease to be honest."
> "J.A. Guy" <just...@noplace.com> wrote in message
> news:sfilcs...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
hack
Gordon Hamm
> "tricked" into buying a Big Mac -- I mean, they actually think of it as
> "food".... <g>.
Good point, but I know full well that when I buy a big Mac that its going to
rot my gut out. :)
BTW, I don't like McDonalds food much anyway.
subvers...@my-deja.com
"J.A. Guy" <just...@noplace.com> wrote:
> Certainly, my point below is that McDonalds doesn't offer anything
> like a
> real "quality product". <LOL>
Have you tried their baked apple pies, or hot fudge sundaes? Sure, the
big macs suck, but unlike my experience with amway, at least some of
their products are a good value. I never had anyone in a McDonalds try
to convince me that I needed to listen to brainwashing tapes that
espoused the value of McDonalds to me, either!
--
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." --
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
ld...@my-deja.com
As I first thought to myself when a fantastic young couple showed their
plan to me, “If it’s a scam, they’re being scammed too”. Most IBOs
really believe what they’re selling.
J.A. Guy
<ld...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8deocb$7mt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> There's a good reason you get an approach that seems honest & ethical.
> As I first thought to myself when a fantastic young couple showed their
> plan to me, "If it's a scam, they're being scammed too". Most IBOs
> really believe what they're selling.
>
>
Well, Duh!!
Of course they do. And of course they are.
Look, one of the first things that you learn in sales (and make no mistake
about it, MLMs *sell* something -- an "income opportunity") is that you must
believe in the value of the product you are selling. Your belief-system must
be compatible with the product, or it must be brought into harmony with the
product, one of the two, or you will not be successful.
We all know that most people will not remember the exact words you said ten
minutes later, but they will remember the emotional content of what you
said -- how *they* felt listening to you -- and if your conviction and
excitement is "contagious" or not. Did *you* "feel" that they - that
"fantastic young couple" - believed in what they were doing (selling you on
Amway)? Did you feel that they were sincere? Did you feel their hope and
enthusiasm? Then that is what *sold* you. Regardless of whatever level of
doubt or skepticism you may have had come into the meeting. And not the
details of the "opportunity".
The single most successful person in PPL, David Savula, (who made $1,000,000
in his third year, and continues to make $100,000 a month after 7 years in
the business and counts about 65% of all the Associates in PPL in his
downline) is unstop-ably enthusiastic. And it is not *because* he is making
$1+ million a year (oh, and that is not in "advanced commission" or other
even remotely debatable income, it is straight, as earned commissions,
overrides and bonuses) that he believes in the "income opportunity". He is
making $100,000 a month because he totally believes and always did believe
in the business opportunity.
Parenthetically, that personal belief *always* proceeds the reality of
success in business -- just as it does for everyone who is successful in any
endeavor. A person *must* believe in themselves and what they are doing, or
they will not even bother to get up in the morning, or do any of the really
difficult things that separates those who would "like" to be successful from
those who *need* to be successful because it is the only thing that they can
imagine themselves being. God knows, it is a lot easier to just get a job
and go to work with everyone else, sharing in *that* belief-system, then to
chart another course. (However, it doesn't matter if I believe that I am the
best basketball player in the world, if I am 5'6" and can't shoot hoops
worth shit.)
And how did Mr. Savula develop that belief in the business opportunity?
Because he saw the benefit of the service in his own life and the lives of
the people around him. How else could he legitimately believe? Not because
he took someone's word for it. That old saw about "belief being the proof of
things unseen" is fine for religion, but not for a business.
After all, in any business, you must pay the price before you can reap the
rewards. So, "belief" (sorry Slambots <g>) is the *second* most important
single element you can have. However, that belief *must* be grounded in
something real, something demonstrable to others. Because having something
provably valuable is the *first* most important single element you can have.
If you are going to have a real business (sorry Ambots <g>).
OK. Now, let's go back and look at the difference between having something
that fits your belief-system that you can dedicate yourself to, and
something that you must adapt yourself to, in order to have some measure of
material success. As someone who has been is sales for most of the last 30
years, I can tell you with some degree of assurance that what I have seen is
the most successful people found the thing that they believed in, and worked
harder than anyone else they knew, because it *was* something that already
represented some component of their belief-system. You know the saying...
"Find something you love, do that, and the money will follow."
No successful salesperson can be successful if he or she does not believe
sincerely that sales is an honest and honorable profession. No one can be
successful if they don't believe that what they do is valuable. And if what
you do is valuable, then there is no limit to what you can make doing it.
But if you are doing what you are doing *because* you think you can make
money at it -- if the only reason for doing it is because you *want* to be
"successful" -- it seems that there is a Law of the Universe that you will
not find the kind of success you thought was available. See, you have
reversed the order -- you are not doing something you love, and letting the
money follow -- you are doing something to make money, and the love *will
not* follow. Without this "love", this passion, this total commitment and
dedication, the rewards will always be small.
So how are people able to be successful in Amway or other MLMs? (Because the
truth is that there are fine people who are successful in any MLM you care
to name -- so what do they have in common?) They sincerely believe that
Network Marketing offers them far more than an income. They believe that it
offers them a way to succeed by helping others to succeed. That they are
doing real, legitimate good in people's lives. The people I know who have
succeeded in Network Marketing are the humblest, the most grateful, the
*must* understanding of the full spectrum of human emotion and human frailty
and the fantastic potential of the human animal.
If you don't have something you can believe in besides making money, what
are you doing that makes people's lives better? Are you offering people
something worthwhile? Are you doing something bigger than yourself? If you
are, then even the fact that you don't have a truly valuable product can be
overcome -- look at the quality of McDonalds' hamburgers! <LOL> Of course,
at some point you may realize that selling something with little or no
intrinsic value taints everything else you have done, but that is an issue
best left for another day.
And then there are the others. The ones who are successful, but never happy.
The ones who always seem to need more. The ones who measure their success by
$$ signs instead of lives positively influenced. The ones who go from one
"opportunity" to the next, one *system* to the next, all experts in the
mechanics of MLMs, and not at all aware of the fact that they lack emotional
content, emotional commitment or emotional connection, to anything but
"making money". Some of those people will be *successful*. Financially. That
is just the way it works in the real world.
Now, and sorry if this sounds harsh, if all you are doing is selling an
"income opportunity", which side of that equation are you on?
I hope this all doesn't sound too hopelessly old-fashioned or quaint. But if
you are just chasing money -- if you are just presenting people with some
way to "make money", when you know that the likelihood is that they are not
going to, and the only thing you care about is, "Is it legal" or not even
that, if you don't sincerely care about *people* more than you do about
*money*, than you will have wasted your "opportunity". This life is *not* a
dress-rehearsal. And money is only one way of measuring success. It turns
out to be the smallest -- and you can't take any of it with you anyway.
[For those who want to read something that more fully explores these issues,
there is a book by Milton Fogg called 'The Greatest Networker in the World'
that I actually *require* people in my downline to read.]
If you need to have a constant dose of "motivation" imposed on you from the
outside, how can you not see that what you are doing is not fulfilling? If
you have to *buy* your motivation -- if it is not part-and-parcel with your
everyday efforts -- it is artificial. If you have to be told what to belief
in, and how to believe, how can you be anything but the victim of a scam?
I have nothing against people seeking out additional help in dealing with
the frustrations and "motivational issues" that we all face from time to
time -- I was a therapist for 7 years, after all -- but to say that you
*need* to buy that motivation constantly from the outside is to say that you
have no inner motivation at all, and if that is true, then you are doing
something that is "soul-killing", something that is alien to who you are and
what you really want. It is "brainwashing" at it's worse. Because it is
veiled in all that rhetoric of helping you, while it leads you further from
who you really are and what would make you really happy.
The truth of Network Marketing is that it in fact is *not* for everyone --
unless you go back to the basics. Network Marketing is *supposed* to be
about trying a product or a service, finding out that it works, and
enthusiastically endorsing that product or service -- in other words, the
belief in the "income opportunity" follows the experience of using the
products, not the other way around. Only then do you have the *right* to
involve others in an "income opportunity" that you believe in. Because you
have some real reason to. Otherwise, what are you doing except being scammed
and scamming others as well?
subvers...@my-deja.com
ld...@my-deja.com wrote:
> There’s a good reason you get an approach that seems honest & ethical.
> As I first thought to myself when a fantastic young couple showed
their
> plan to me, “If it’s a scam, they’re being scammed too”. Most IBOs
> really believe what they’re selling.
Very, very true. Back when I was a deluded young ambot, I truly
believed in what I was pushing on people! When I finally woke up, and
realized that I had been fed a load of crap, I immediately quit, and
came clean with the people who signed up under me. Fortunately, they
quit too.
This is, of course, the reason why the new recruit's upslime wants to
get a list of everyone they know. They want to sink their hooks into
everyone within your sphere of influence immediately, in case you
quickly awaken. Lifetime friendships are shattered, careers tainted
and damaged (sometimes destroyed), and families torn apart. I lost a
great deal of respect for humanity due to my dealings with amway
people, both for the coldhearted deceptions of the amway diamonds and
big pins, and the ease with which ordinary people can be manipulated
and exploited, and the way they cling to and refuse to awaken from
their delusions. This is truly an ugly business, and people need to be
made aware that quixtar and amway are really the same deal.
--
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." --
Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
David Steadson
considering one of our products i virtually the same as PPLs, i'm not sure
how you can imply we don't have value (see http://www.afsfinancial.com.au))
For those who are interested, the book JAG mentions, The Greatest Networker
in the World, is available online at -
http://www.upline.com/tgnitw/tgnitw00.html
Its an absolutely sensational book and I recommend to anyone trying to get a
grasp of what networking is about.
David
"J.A. Guy" <just...@noplace.com> wrote in message
news:sfnipep...@corp.supernews.com...
J.A. Guy
> Excellent post (except for that part about 'something valuable' :-)
> considering one of our products i virtually the same as PPLs, i'm not sure
> how you can imply we don't have value
URL hacked
Sorry. A less-than-one-year old single attorney referral service is not the
same as a network of 34 Provider Firms, most of whom are paid near or in
some cases more (and in a few cases substantially more) than $1,000,000 a
year each, by a company with 28 years of experience providing one thing and
one thing alone -- access to legal services. Just because you call it a
"legal services plan" doesn't make it a *quality* one. There are about 20
other legal plans here in North America, too. And not one of them has a
Closed Panel Plan like PPL's. Not one of them offers the range of legal
services PPL's Provider Firms do, either.
Besides, you can not be saying that as long as your *non-core* products are
of some value, that means anything, can you?
> For those who are interested, the book JAG mentions, The Greatest
Networker
> in the World, is available online at -
>
URL hacked
>
> Its an absolutely sensational book and I recommend to anyone trying to get
> a grasp of what networking is about.
>
Well, now at least *there* we are in total agreement!
> David
>
> "J.A. Guy" <just...@noplace.com> wrote in message
> news:sfnipep...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
hack
> >
> > The truth of Network Marketing is that it in fact is *not* for
everyone --
> > unless you go back to the basics. Network Marketing is *supposed* to be
> > about trying a product or a service, finding out that it works, and
> > enthusiastically endorsing that product or service -- in other words,
the
> > belief in the "income opportunity" follows the experience of using the
> > products, not the other way around. Only then do you have the *right* to
> > involve others in an "income opportunity" that you believe in. Because
you
> > have some real reason to. Otherwise, what are you doing except being
> > scammed and scamming others as well?
> >
You know, considering I wrote that after two beers, it actually did come out
reasonably coherently, didn't it? <LOL!!!>
David Steadson
>
> David Steadson <dav...@ambience.com> wrote in message
> news:3CSK4.97$fj3.6...@news0.optus.net.au...
> > considering one of our products i virtually the same as PPLs, i'm not
sure
> > how you can imply we don't have value
>
>
> Sorry. A less-than-one-year old single attorney referral service is not
the
> same as a network of 34 Provider Firms, most of whom are paid near or in
> some cases more (and in a few cases substantially more) than $1,000,000 a
> year each, by a company with 28 years of experience providing one thing
and
> one thing alone -- access to legal services. Just because you call it a
> "legal services plan" doesn't make it a *quality* one. There are about 20
> other legal plans here in North America, too. And not one of them has a
> Closed Panel Plan like PPL's. Not one of them offers the range of legal
> services PPL's Provider Firms do, either.
I don't want to argue about quality here, legal plans is a brand new concept
in Australia, nobody else is doing it. You're not quite correct about single
attorney referral, but needless to say I have no doubt the PPL product is
currently superior. I also have no doubt our product will improve as uptake
increases.
> Besides, you can not be saying that as long as your *non-core* products
are
> of some value, that means anything, can you?
Now, I'm not sure in the US, but here in Oz only around 10% of the products
are actually produced by Amway. Incidentally, AFS is part-owned by Amway and
pays considerable PV/BV, so I would most definitely consider it a "core"
product. In any case, what you you've said previously is that when
evaluating the business we should throw away 90% of the product range and
only talk about whether the other 10% is quality or not. Personally even if
that 10% was thrown out and replaced by non-Amway products I'd still think
it was a damn good business, you'd just need more people to get the same
profit.
In any case, I believe the Amway core products to be of excellent value. I
haven't found any consumer product reports any more recent than 5 or 6 years
ago, so its difficult to judge from them. Of those consumer reports I've
found, they were all online on Schwartz's untold story mirror sites, many
receive favourable reports, though admittedly not top rank. Some just seem
ridiculous. For example, the Dish Drops report claims it was the strongest
cleaner, but picks it as worst buy on price. Except for some reason they
operate on a 2:1 water:dishdrops dilution, which is by far the strongest. My
bottle says to use 6:1 for standard dishwashing, which drops the price *way*
down. In any case, in the 2.5yrs I've been involved the product has been
replaced and improved twice. Others have been replaced and improved 4 times
(SA8 for example). Reading consumer reports from as early as 1984, as on
schwartz's site, really doesn't tell me a damn thing.
I can however report a recent review (last sunday's paper) on competitive
laundry detergents, all are phospate free.
Omo High Performance 59c/wash
Drive Concentrate 46c/wash
Omo High Performance concentrate 42c/wash
Fab 50c/wash
These are in order of how good a wash they actually gave. I'd put SA8 up
against any of them for that. How's SA8 compare price-wise? Well, for a
mid-size 3.5kg load of washing, Amway recommends you use 16gm of SA8. I
actually only use 12g (1 scoop) but lets go with the 16gm. That gives just
over 93 washes per box.
SA8 1.5kg Retail price $31.15 34c/wash
SA8 1.5kg Member price $24.90 27c/wash
Even at full retail price it blows the competitors out of the water. Now I
know you think joining just to shop suddenly makes the whole business
illegitimate, but for $40 a year you can get the washing powder for around
half the price of the competitors products. If I buy the 3kg box it gets
even cheaper again. Still, as I've said, value is a subjective thing.
I can also report that NewWoman magazine, a leading woman's magazine here in
Australia, awarded Artistry Alpha Hydroxy Serum Plus "Best Skin Care Product
of 1999" and Artistry Waterproof Mascara 200 was a finalist in "Best
Mascara".
David
ps all prices in $A