SIMPLE QUESTION REGARDING GRAB BARS
Tim Conde
I have a complaint against me through the contractors state license board
because I did not pull a building permit to install a few grab bars in a
residence. There was no other work done. The only work done was to take 4-5
grab bars out of their boxes and screw them into the wall studs, pick up
the trash and leave. End of story. There were two complaints, one was that I
installed bars vertically and not horizontally (no room and no studs
behind), then the state added that I had not pulled a permit. Grab bars can
be installed any which way you want, verytically, horizontally, angled, etc.
so that went nowhere but this "no permit" thing really startled me. I have
NEVER pulled a permit for grab bars and don't know why I would have to since
I am not altering the structure in any way.
Anyone have any info?
Thanks
Tim
jloomis
Tell them to install the dam grab bars........
It sounds like you did the right thing.
You know, in a wall, that you cannot see in, who knows where any attachment
is?
I run in to this all the time....
sure you can tear down the wall and install blocking......what a mess......
Look for studs with a wall finder........
thru bolt, glue screw, you name it.......
I do not know what to say.....welcome to the ADA and making a bathroom safe
for everyone.
Is this Calif.? State Con. Board?
john
"Tim Conde" <tcc...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:hc7fpa$gql$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Tim Conde
Anytime anyone gets out the ADA and starts quoting chapter and verse I have
to stop them and inform that that the ADA doesn't apply. In this case, the
state board supposedly retained an "expert" who put in a report that the
grab bars, according to the manufacturer, HAD TO BE installed horizontally.
I can't wait to see that. Also that I had to have a permit to install them.
If I opened walls, installed blocking, etc. yeah, OK,maybe. But screwed them
into a wall? So I can't install a paper towel holder or a towel bar without
a permit, too? Sure. Makes sense...
"jloomis" <jlo...@ocean.net> wrote in message
news:hc7iu...@news3.newsguy.com...
RicodJour
In my area the town has a web site that lists the common items of work
that trigger the need for pulling a permit.
http://www.northhempsteadny.gov/content/7350/7121/7237/4377/4379/default.aspx
Ask your licensing board contact to point out the written section
where grab bars trigger the requirement. You will find many items of
similarly small scope that don't, and you will most likely be able to
get them to throw the complaint out. If they do not want to throw it
out, tell them that you did not pull a permit as this requirement is
obviously so new it is not even on their own books, but as a law-
abiding contractor you would be willing to pay a fine if it does not
get entered on your record. If you have never or rarely pulled
permits that will be a tough sell.
R
Tim Conde
insurance companies to do their workman's comp work. And when it comes to
insurance companies, believe me, I am carefully watched. I don't even do
work for homeowners anymore, only insurance companies. But you had better do
it right, or my understanding is that they have a portable gallows and they
bring it to the job site and hang your ass. This is not even doing work FOR
lawyers. One side has a team of lawyers and they want everything they can
get. The other side has a team of lawyers and they want to give the injured
worker the absolute minimum. One day, on a job, I had more lawyers
inspecting the work, than I had people doing the work. As far as permits, I
have permits when they are needed. I called and was told that, no I did not
need a permit. If I screw the bars into the wall, I do not need a permit. If
I open the wall up to install blocking, I do need a permit. In this state,
it takes no effort to convince the state that by contract, the contractor
was supposed to have a brass band playing between the hours of 10 AM and 1
PM every day. You tell the state that and the state believes you if you are
the homeowner. In this case, the homeowner told the state I needed a permit
and the state believed her. I am guiilty until proven innocent. But if you
really want a shocker, dig this: I knew that this homeowner was telling
lies. So when the state wanted my sworn statement to the facts, I was told
that my statement was under penalty of perjury, and everything I said was
under penalty of perjury. BUT not the homeowner. The homeowner can lie,
cheat, slander, and whatever else and the state won't come down on them. But
if I tell a lie, it is a crime. Great system, huh? A very close friend of
mine had a complaint on his license and it cost him nearly 25K out of his
pocket to fix it, lawyer fees, etc. plus insurance premium raises, lost
business, etc. Then he saw that the fine for being an unlicensed contractor
was $250. Nice...
"RicodJour" <rico...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:ce3b69b2-66d1-4b29...@l33g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
RicodJour
>
> Thanks for the reply. I am actually on a retainer deal with a lot of
> insurance companies to do their workman's comp work. And when it comes to
> insurance companies, believe me, I am carefully watched. I don't even do
> work for homeowners anymore, only insurance companies. But you had better do
> it right, or my understanding is that they have a portable gallows and they
> bring it to the job site and hang your ass. This is not even doing work FOR
> lawyers. One side has a team of lawyers and they want everything they can
> get. The other side has a team of lawyers and they want to give the injured
> worker the absolute minimum. One day, on a job, I had more lawyers
> inspecting the work, than I had people doing the work. As far as permits, I
> have permits when they are needed. I called and was told that, no I did not
> need a permit. If I screw the bars into the wall, I do not need a permit. If
> I open the wall up to install blocking, I do need a permit. In this state,
> it takes no effort to convince the state that by contract, the contractor
> was supposed to have a brass band playing between the hours of 10 AM and 1
> PM every day. You tell the state that and the state believes you if you are
> the homeowner. In this case, the homeowner told the state I needed a permit
> really want a shocker, dig this: I knew that this homeowner was telling
> lies. So when the state wanted my sworn statement to the facts, I was told
> that my statement was under penalty of perjury, and everything I said was
> under penalty of perjury. BUT not the homeowner. The homeowner can lie,
> cheat, slander, and whatever else and the state won't come down on them. But
> if I tell a lie, it is a crime. Great system, huh? A very close friend of
> mine had a complaint on his license and it cost him nearly 25K out of his
> pocket to fix it, lawyer fees, etc. plus insurance premium raises, lost
> business, etc. Then he saw that the fine for being an unlicensed contractor
> was $250. Nice...
I can't help you with your frustration level, so you will just have to
deal with it or find another line of work, or work on jobs where you
have more control over who you work for/with. By working for
insurance companies you are asking to be put in the middle of
difficult situations. The hostility a homeowner feels towards an
insurance company that they believe is not doing right by them will,
of course, spill over onto you. A state licensing board only has
control over contractors and of course can't compel a homeowner to do
anything. It is what it is.
R
jloomis
A few years back I worked for many Bed and Breakfasts and larger quaint
older lodgings in the Mendocino County Coast area.
The owners had to upgrade some of their antiquated facilities to pass newer
rulings concerning bathrooms, and access to lodgings.
Apparently there was a team of handicap folks/lawyers driving from town to
town staying in these establishments only to find faults with the buildings
access and bathrooms and then suing those for non appropriate conditions and
bringing the Building Dept. into the picture.
Many of these older "Farms" and or Victorian/Queene Anne structures were
originally built with none of the rulings in mind and thus they had that
ambiance of an older structure/turn of the centruy antiquated feeling.
In many we had to tear apart the older rooms, and completely remodel with
ADA compliance in mind.
Bathrooms ended up looking like a mens High School gym locker room.
I do understand the reasoning behind this so that access is equally provided
for those who do not have the mobility.
I also believe that those with less mobility may have to choose an easier
path.
I do not want to get into the debate about ADA compliance etc.
We may have to provide facilities for dogs and cats also. Many pet owners
bring their animals to these lodgings now also. Pet beds, potty rooms,doggy
drink stations, outdoor fire hydrants......hummm
john
"Tim Conde" <tcc...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:hc8prh$e09$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Tim Conde
bigger calling than just installing nice cabinets. I love(d) the aspect of
changing lives and still feel that making a difference in people's lives is
more important than installing a great looking sink base. Most people I have
done work for love what I do, becasue I genuinely care(d) about helping
them. But there are those that have SO much anger, it just doesn't make
sense anymore. This person, according to the adjustor with the carrier, is a
"professional injured person", that's their term. They get hired on
somewhere and within a week or two, "OOOOOWWWWWWWWWWW", back injury. Past
four employers like that. Just be happy one of them is not you.
Tim
"Tim Conde" <tcc...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:hc8prh$e09$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
RicodJour
> You are probably right.
I am always right - just ask me! ;)
> I always looked at this work as "helping people", a
> bigger calling than just installing nice cabinets. I love(d) the aspect of
> changing lives and still feel that making a difference in people's lives is
> more important than installing a great looking sink base. Most people I have
> done work for love what I do, becasue I genuinely care(d) about helping
> them. But there are those that have SO much anger, it just doesn't make
> sense anymore. This person, according to the adjustor with the carrier, is a
> "professional injured person", that's their term. They get hired on
> somewhere and within a week or two, "OOOOOWWWWWWWWWWW", back injury. Past
> four employers like that. Just be happy one of them is not you.
There's an old saw in contracting that 1 out of 5 customers will do
everything possible to prevent a contractor from making a profit. The
trick is to eliminate these people....that does not mean kill them!
It means that you have to be willing to let some jobs go, even if it
looks tempting, because the owner will have you working for free.
You'll still have the risk, but no reward. That's a bad situation.
I wouldn't get bummed out on life/work because of a scam artist.
Karma is effective and (s)he'll get the ungreased point of it
eventually.
R
PeterD
<tcc...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Hi everyone:
>
>I have a complaint against me through the contractors state license board
>because I did not pull a building permit to install a few grab bars in a
>residence.
What was the reason for the original complaint? The state didn't just
do a random inspection, so I'm assuming the customer was dissatisfied.
Did they contact you first before complaining?
As to code compliance, it is whatever the state and/or locality
require. No need for opinions, the rules are going to be clear and
written. I'd just check them.
I really wonder what the rest of the story is...
John Grabowski
>>Hi everyone:
>>
>>I have a complaint against me through the contractors state license board
>>because I did not pull a building permit to install a few grab bars in a
>>residence.
>
> What was the reason for the original complaint? The state didn't just
> do a random inspection, so I'm assuming the customer was dissatisfied.
> Did they contact you first before complaining?
>
> As to code compliance, it is whatever the state and/or locality
> require. No need for opinions, the rules are going to be clear and
> written. I'd just check them.
>
> I really wonder what the rest of the story is...
*I'm thinking that since California is in a budget crisis that these people
in the state license board are worried about their jobs. Consequently they
are pursuing every complaint with a vengeance to justify the need for their
services. Ultimately the OP may win his case, but at what cost?