Seamless gutter expansion joints
AndyS
I wanted to share an experience with you that I had with seamless
guttering.
On our new house, the gutter company brought a machine and
installed several 60' runs of seamless guttering. It was done in
Feb in Texas (40 F) and looked really good. By the end of the
summer, there were places in each long run that bowed out.
I called the builder and he said it was because someone had
stood a ladder against the gutter. He was wrong, since that didn't
happen...
I got on the internet and found that seamless gutters should not
have lengths greater than about 40', due to expansion in hot weather.
Also I learned that no one (that I could find, and I searched) made
stand-alone joints for seamless, since that really defeats the purpose.
I bitched and moaned to the builder and finally the gutter people
returned. I insisted they cut each long run in the middle and put
in their own joint. Takes about 15 minutes for each joint. They
complained but did as I asked just to shut me up. I gave them a
downloaded article from the internet with pointed out the 40 foot
rule (which they discarded when they left).
Anyway, that solved the problem. Having just a quarter inch
expansion
ability made all the difference between a nice, straight gutter and one
that looks like someone beat it with a hammer. it has been a year with
a winter/summer cycle, and there have been no problems. No leaks ,
either, not that a few drops would matter in a Texas monsoon....
Well, that's it. I wanted to share this, and would be very
interested
in any comments that you could make....
Andy in Eureka, Texas
Nehmo Sergheyev
What kind of hangers are on your gutters? Do they pierce the back of
the gutter? How are the new expansion joints made so that they don't
leak?
--
(||) Nehmo (||)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy in Eureka, Texas
Al Bundy
@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> with pointed out the 40 foot rule...
It must be true. I read it on the Internet! :-)
> (which they discarded when they left).
On your property? Coulda hit them for littering or illegal dumping too.
Nehmo Sergheyev
> It must be true. I read it on the Internet! :-)
OP doesn't want to play. Or maybe he doesn't know what kind of hangers
were used or how the unnamed company made its expansion joints.
http://www.askthebuilder.com/B132_Aluminum_Gutters_-_Traditional_vs_Seamless_.shtml
"Expansion joints should always be installed on any gutter that extends
more than 40 feet... Expansion joints are often not available with
'seamless' gutters."- Tim Carter
http://php1.secure-shopping.com/gutterworks/product.php?productid=100&cat=38&page=1
or http://snipurl.com/r0mn
Pic or a rubber expansion joint. It's for a K gutter, but I don't know
if it'll fit on a seamless K.
While searching, I did notice some questionable advice. One example
(about pitch - not expansion):
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/stories/Detailed/10162.shtml
"Gutters should be sloped a minimum of 1 inch for every 40 feet of
run."
That's a small pitch, 1 in 480, and even houses themselves have that
much sometimes. That amount *could* be measured with the right tools,
but it's just advice made-up without thinking. I pitch (I've also heard
the term "fall") gutters as much as possible. I've spoken to gutter
people who do just the opposite - use least amount of pitch possible.
They're thinking of initial appearances; I'm thinking of function.
Al Bundy
news:1148742825.6...@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Al Bundy wrote:
>> It must be true. I read it on the Internet! :-)
>
> OP doesn't want to play. Or maybe he doesn't know what kind of hangers
> were used or how the unnamed company made its expansion joints.
>
> http://www.askthebuilder.com/B132_Aluminum_Gutters_-_Traditional_vs_Sea
> mless_.shtml "Expansion joints should always be installed on any
> gutter that extends more than 40 feet... Expansion joints are often
> not available with 'seamless' gutters."- Tim Carter
>
> http://php1.secure-shopping.com/gutterworks/product.php?productid=100&c
> at=38&page=1 or http://snipurl.com/r0mn
> Pic or a rubber expansion joint. It's for a K gutter, but I don't know
> if it'll fit on a seamless K.
>
> While searching, I did notice some questionable advice. One example
> (about pitch - not expansion):
> http://www.oldhouseweb.com/stories/Detailed/10162.shtml
> "Gutters should be sloped a minimum of 1 inch for every 40 feet of
> run."
>
> That's a small pitch, 1 in 480, and even houses themselves have that
> much sometimes. That amount *could* be measured with the right tools,
> but it's just advice made-up without thinking. I pitch (I've also
> heard the term "fall") gutters as much as possible. I've spoken to
> gutter people who do just the opposite - use least amount of pitch
> possible. They're thinking of initial appearances; I'm thinking of
> function.
>
> --
> (||) Nehmo (||)
>
>
> That's a small pitch, ...
Well, it did say minimum. I think I read once and seem to recall a min
recommendation of 1/4" in 10 ft which is the same thing. Again, a
minimum, No gutters provides the best pitch ;-)
AndyS
Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:
> Al Bundy wrote:
> > It must be true. I read it on the Internet! :-)
>
> OP doesn't want to play. Or maybe he doesn't know what kind of hangers
> were used or how the unnamed company made its expansion joints.
>
Andy writes:
I finally got the time to get the ladder out and climb up and
examine how the patch was made in the seamless gutters...
The regular seamliess run is 60 feet and the fasteners on the
house side go thru the gutter into the fascia wood and on the
edge away from the house they "clip" on the gutter.
The splice was made by cutting, probably with a nibbling tool,
a 1/2 inch gap all the way around the cutter. It was made at
approx 30 feet, in the center of the run. A section of identical
guttering about 8 inches long was then wrapped around the
gutter on the outside. The paint matched perfectly, so I image
it was a standard color in the gutter stock..... The gap was then
sealed , on the inside of the gutter, with some sort of plastic
compound, --- looks like a type of RTV --- and appears to have
coloring added. After one year, it hasn't cracked or pulled loose,
and appears to be in good shape,
On the outside, you can see the "patch" , but it isn't at all
objectionable and appears to be factory made, tho it was made
on the spot when the fellows saw what I wanted. The gutter no
longer bows and is straight as an arrow in both winter and summer.
Apparently all that is needed is a stress relief. This was done on
three sides of my house and the performance is identical.
Sorry it took so long to get back, but I wasn't able to run out
and get the answers to your questions on the spot....
Andy in Eureka, Texas
( If your dog has gooten lost chasing wild pigs thru the
woods and you had to go find him, you might live in
Eureka, Texas )
Nehmo Sergheyev
> I finally got the time to get the ladder out and climb up and
> examine how the patch was made in the seamless gutters...
Nehmo -
Be more prompt next time.
AndyS -
> The regular seamliess run is 60 feet and the fasteners on the
> house side go thru the gutter into the fascia wood and on the
> edge away from the house they "clip" on the gutter.
Nehmo -
You are describing a regular hanger - not a free floating one.
Installers usually use regular hangers of some variety. I called your
attention to them because I wanted you to understand that the expansion
of the gutter, at least the back of the gutter, is restrained at each
hanger position. The position of the bow you saw had to have been
between two hangers. It's possible the problem could have been resolved
simply by adding a hanger at that point.
AndyS -
> The splice was made by cutting, probably with a nibbling tool,
> a 1/2 inch gap all the way around the cutter. It was made at
> approx 30 feet, in the center of the run. A section of identical
> guttering about 8 inches long was then wrapped around the
> gutter on the outside. The paint matched perfectly, so I image
> it was a standard color in the gutter stock..... The gap was then
> sealed , on the inside of the gutter, with some sort of plastic
> compound, --- looks like a type of RTV --- and appears to have
> coloring added.
Nehmo -
Probably gutter sealant. Was it silvery or gray? This joint may be
flexible to an extent, but it's not as effective as a true expansion
joint. If there is enough movement at that joint, eventually, it will
leak.
People don't often go out in the rain and look, but if they did, they'd
see that gutters joints often end up leaking.
AndyS -
> After one year, it hasn't cracked or pulled loose,
> and appears to be in good shape,
Nehmo -
If your happiness is what counts, then you're doing okay - at least for
now. What prompted you to post about this a year after the fact?
AndyS -
> On the outside, you can see the "patch" , but it isn't at all
> objectionable and appears to be factory made,
Nehmo -
What was the point of getting "seamless" then?
AndyS -
> tho it was made
> on the spot when the fellows saw what I wanted.
Nehmo -
As I said, I'm not sure you can even get a manufactured expansion joint
for "seamless". I don't know if the cross-section matches what's
available.
AndyS -
> The gutter no
> longer bows and is straight as an arrow in both winter and summer.
Nehmo -
The last time I shot an arrow, it traveled in a modified parabola. Get
up on the ladder again on a hot day and look _along_ the gutter.
AndyS
Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:
>
> Nehmo -
> You are describing a regular hanger - not a free floating one.
> Installers usually use regular hangers of some variety. I called your
> attention to them because I wanted you to understand that the expansion
> of the gutter, at least the back of the gutter, is restrained at each
> hanger position. The position of the bow you saw had to have been
> between two hangers. It's possible the problem could have been resolved
> simply by adding a hanger at that point.
>
Andy comments:
Yes, if the entire gutter length had been able to "slide" a little,
it would
have just gotten longer and not bowed. However, at the corners, where
it fastened to another 60 foot length at right angles , it would've
pulled
away there..... When metal expands, it's got to go somewhere...
>
> Nehmo -
> Probably gutter sealant. Was it silvery or gray? This joint may be
> flexible to an extent, but it's not as effective as a true expansion
> joint. If there is enough movement at that joint, eventually, it will
> leak.
\
Andy writes:
No doubt. But a small leak doesn't really do anything. In a Texas
rainstorm, and with a very high pitched roof, the gutter often runs
very full of water and the downspouts look like Niagara Falls....
A few drops coming out of the middle don't hurt anything.... Besides,
I can always go up and reseal it , if it bothered me...... It ain't
like
everything has got to be permanent....
>
> Nehmo -
> If your happiness is what counts, then you're doing okay - at least for
> now. What prompted you to post about this a year after the fact?
>
Andy comments:
Because, like yourself, I had absolutely nothing better to do that
day...
> AndyS -
> > On the outside, you can see the "patch" , but it isn't at all
> > objectionable and appears to be factory made,
> Nehmo -
> What was the point of getting "seamless" then?
>
Andy writes:
I suppose it is a selling point by gutter people . They bring
their
machine out, measure a full length, and run the machine to make it.
I guess the selling point is there are no joints, and it looks
better....
MY POINT is that , due to metal expansion, when it exceeds a certain
length, and is restrained on one side, it MUST bow out, or in, with
temperature changes depending on whether it was installed in the
summer or in the winter..... MY POST just calls attention to the fact
that reccommended guidelines (40 ft) may be, and probably often are,
exceeded by the installers. ........ and how it can be fixed...
>
> Nehmo -
> As I said, I'm not sure you can even get a manufactured expansion joint
> for "seamless". I don't know if the cross-section matches what's
> available.
>
Andy writes:
I guess it wouldn't be "seamless" any more..... If the runs are
less
than about 40 feet--- AS IS OFTEN THE CASE BUT NOT ALWAYS --
there may never be a problem...... A 60 foot seamless run installed in
February with standard hangers will most certainly have a problem
in August when the entire length expands....
Nehmo -
> The last time I shot an arrow, it traveled in a modified parabola. Get
> up on the ladder again on a hot day and look _along_ the gutter.
>
> --
Andy writes:
Well, the last time I shot an arrow, it went every which way......
Perhaps the arrow should have had an expansion joint :>))))
Andy in Eureka, Texas
( If your neighbor with a beard won the Elvis contest at the
high school half-time game by singing "Hunka Burnin' Love",
you probably live in Eureka, Texas )
srath...@gmail.com
Tom from Southern Illinois.