Failed Perc, what can I do for a Septic system?
Dae
and I'm told that a Sand mound will not work either. Is there any
options out there that might work here in Maryland? It's driving me
crazy because it's in the perfect location for me.
Thanks
Jimmy Galvin
specializing in septic designs should be able to design it.
"Dae" <web...@speakeasy.org> wrote in message
news:3EB05930...@speakeasy.org...
Steve Spence
many jurisdictions will allow it if nothing else works. It's a better
solution anyway.
--
Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
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"Jimmy Galvin" <james....@mags.net> wrote in message
news:vb0olca...@corp.supernews.com...
Jim Smith
Where in Maryland are you located? How bad did it fail the perc test?
What is the standard for that county?
How large is the property and how much property can you commit to a
drain field?
Can a holding tank be used in your county?
If this is near waterfront property such as eastern Baltimore county,
Harford or Cecil counties, you are probably not going to be able to
build on the property. Also check to ensure that this property is not
on the Chesapeake Bay Conservation list.
Good Luck!
Jim Smith
--
Blaming the gun for murder, is like blaming the car for hit and run!
Condor Chef
Are lagoons legal in your county?
CC
Dae
Matthew & Cali-Linn Beasley
clean water.
Check out http://www.nesc.wvu.edu/nsfc/nsfc_national_summaries.htm for
info on Maryland.
I have a pumped system by Orenco. (No sand filter, but the only place
that passes perc was 75' above where the previous owner wanted to place
the house.). They are the big name in packaged treatment systems.
Their website for onsite treatment is:
http://www.orenco.com/ots/ots_index.asp
Hope this helps.
"Dae" <web...@speakeasy.org> wrote in message
news:3EB05930...@speakeasy.org...
mach...@coldmail.com
You can put in a two-tank aerobic system that requires no leachfield.
It does require a small amount of electricity and maintenance, but not
much; and you can use the effluent for surface tree watering, etc.
Mach Twain
Robert Thompson
lawn?
"Steve Spence" <ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:QBZra.44201$A41.6...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
Meyer
My brother used a gas toilet for 20 years in his cottage/home near
Traverse City Michigan because the septic tank collapsed. There are
various options, but it all depends on what is allowed. You don't want
to get stuck with something you can't sell when you are done with it.
Sam Hopkins
believe runs it through a chlorine solution (?), and every night at 2:00am
sprays the water over your lawn. The area required here is 2 acres I
believe. You can't build on the land you use for it. I live in PA.
"Dae" <web...@speakeasy.org> wrote in message
news:3EB05930...@speakeasy.org...
Goedjn
Dae wrote:
Options? Yes. Cheap options? no.
How did it fail? Draining too fast, too slow, or a water-table
of about 3" ?
Rich Greenberg
Is there a city sewer you can connect to? If not, forget the house.
--
Rich Greenberg Work: Rich.Greenberg atsign worldspan.com + 1 770 563 6656
N6LRT Marietta, GA, USA Play: richgr atsign panix.com + 1 770 321 6507
Eastern time zone. I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines:Val(Chinook,CGC,TT), Red & Shasta(Husky,(RIP)) Owner:Chinook-L
Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. www.panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L
Dae
Goedjn wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> Options? Yes. Cheap options? no.
>
> How did it fail? Draining too fast, too slow, or a water-table
> of about 3" ?
>
>
>
It drains to slow.. The soil is all clay.
- Dae
Dae
- Dae
Earthlink
Sam
Jack D
> In article <3EB078...@speakeasy.org>, Dae <web...@speakeasy.org> wrote:
>
>>> There is a lot I really would like to purchase but it has failed PERC
>>> and I'm told that a Sand mound will not work either. Is there any
>>> options out there that might work here in Maryland? It's driving me
>>> crazy because it's in the perfect location for me.
>
> Is there a city sewer you can connect to? If not, forget the house.
Have you consider a cesspool?
Jack
v
>Is there a city sewer you can connect to?
>
Oh c'mon man, if there was, do you think he would still be asking?
-v.
v
>It drains to slow.. The soil is all clay.
>
You really need to consult with a Professional Engineer familiar with
the regulatory practice in that particular area. You need a solution
that would be approved by the relevant health authorities where your
lot is located, not just something that someone heard of somewhere.
-v.
Ed Siff
(or the hookup, which can be very costly).
Ed
In article <3eb2a6f6...@news.verizon.net>, v.viv...@verizon.net (v)
wrote:
ny...@worldonline.co.uk
Steve Spence
water recovery system is a better solution than any type of waste storage.
--
Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
http://www.green-trust.org
ssp...@green-trust.org
"Rich Greenberg" <ric...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:b8s978$mhe$1...@panix5.panix.com...
Steve Spence
a composting toilet can save a family of five over 20000 gallons of fresh
water per year.
--
Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
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ssp...@green-trust.org
"Ed Siff" <ed_...@unc.edu> wrote in message
news:3eb2b1fc$1...@news.unc.edu...
mach...@coldmail.com
wrote:
>
> Have you consider a cesspool?
>
If a leachfield won't drain, why would a cesspool?
Mach Twain
Dae
the county requires a drain rate of 1" in 60 mins for a traditional
septic/sand mound or 1" in under 120 mins for an alternative like a
Aerobic system when there is no existing dwelling. Anyone got a
creative way to get land to pass perc like mixing sand with soil?
Thanks,
Dae
Anthony Matonak
> > >> and I'm told that a Sand mound will not work either. Is there any
> > >> options out there that might work here in Maryland? It's driving me
> > >> crazy because it's in the perfect location for me.
Steve Spence wrote:
>
> A good composting toilet (that reaches hemophilic temperatures) and a gray
> water recovery system is a better solution than any type of waste storage.
Let's not forget incinerating toilets.
Anthony
mach...@coldmail.com
I'm curious as to why a sand mound system wouldn't work. I know of two
kinds; one is a 2 ft. deep trench with infiltrators in it, filled and
heaped over with sand. The other is a much larger plastic-lined pond
heaped over with sand. I thought that both depended on evaporation,
not percolation.
Mach Twain
Mike Marshall
Check these bad boys out:
http://www.infiltratorsystems.com/
I learned about them when I bought a lot in the mountains near here
(Upstate S.C.)...
-Mike
Dae
Mach,
You might be right about a sand mound working (there are other systems
that would work also), but because the way the law is written in this
county, you can't do a sand mound if the Perc rate is less the 1" for 60
mins. I feel the law needs to be rewritten.
- Dae
Jim Smith
Mostly because it's Maryland!!!
Maryland has some of the most anal building regulations in the United
States!!!
You wouldn't believe them.
Some counties will allow you to pull your own plumbing permit, others
require a licensed plumber to pull the permit but will allow the owner
to do the work, other counties require all permits and work to be done
by a licensed plumber.
Electrical permits are almost as bad.
Pulling permits can be a nightmare. Don't look at building on a lot in
the "Chesapeake Bay Conservation Areas", that is unless you're a BIG
commercial builder. I live in an area that had a nice 3 acre waterfront
property that was for sale for 4 years. No one could pull the permit
because of the conservation area. Some big time builder somehow got the
permits to build a huge home on this same lot where many have tried in
the past. There is now a 1.2 million dollar home on the property.
You don't know how many decks and sheds have been torn down because a
permit hadn't been pulled.
We even had a builder build a shed with the proper permits. Plans were
submitted, all zoning was followed. The shed was being built. A
neighbor complained because the shed blocked his view to a ball field.
After the shed as 90% completed, a stop order was placed and a zoning
meeting was held 5 weeks from the date of the stop order. The zoning
meeting ended with a 12 x 20 shed having to be cut down to a 10 x 12
shed.
It almost isn't worth the effort any longer. I've turned down a few jobs
because of neighborhood problems.
This doesn't even include the local civic association approvals that are
more difficult to get than zoning approvals.
I've got relatives in Ohio that are in the business and they can't
believe the hoops we have to jump through.
I'm stepping down off my soapbox now!
So, there's the long version as to why he can't use a sand mound system.
Jim Smith
--
Blaming the gun for murder, is like blaming the car for hit and run!
Jimmy Galvin
He/she will know what to do. You will need a designed system anyway.news:3EB2F09...@speakeasy.org...
Matthew S. Whiting
As I recall from 3 years ago when I did mine in PA, we have the same
basic regulation. You have to be within some range of perc rates in
order to use a sand mound at all. If not, you have to use an
alternative system, of which there are many, but they tend to cost
upwards of $10,000 and have more maintenance requirements than a sand mound.
Matt
Matthew S. Whiting
> hook into it.
Or, as where I used to live, you didn't have to hook in, but you had to
pay the minimum monthly fee whether you used their sewer system or not.
Even so, if you had a functioning septic system, you could still save
the $500 - $2000 tap fee. Many folks kept using theirs until it failed
and only then tapped into the municipal sewer system. And some just
refused to pay the monthly fee and last I knew (after 4 years of having
the municipal system) nothing much had happened to them...
Matt
mach...@coldmail.com
>You might be right about a sand mound working (there are other systems
>that would work also), but because the way the law is written in this
>county, you can't do a sand mound if the Perc rate is less the 1" for 60
>mins. I feel the law needs to be rewritten.
>
I put in a mound system at my place in NM. I was going to do the work
myself (I've experience and license in another state), but:
In NM the owner can install only a 'conventional' system. They called
the sand mound an 'unconventional' system, so I had to hire a guy with
a NM license. ($$$$) The only difference in the sand mound system is
that instead of covering the infiltrators with dirt, you use sand.
I expect nothing from government except stupidity, interference,
corruption, and taxes.
Mach Twain
mach...@coldmail.com
Yeah, that's what I installed in my place in NM. It's fast and easy,
but I don't get the concept at all; in fact I think it's dumb. What
the folks can't see in the picture is that the infiltrators have slots
thru the sides everywhere, and there's no bottom at all! (U-shaped
plastic pieces sit right on the bottom of ditch) What's gonna keep
these things from eventually filling up with dirt?
Mach Twain
mach...@coldmail.com
>
>Maryland has some of the most anal building regulations in the United
>States!!!
>
>You wouldn't believe them.
All building permits in NM are handed out by the state. All
contractors must be licensed. Even the land owner doing his own work
needs a permit. To do your own electrical work they make you take a
written test, and you have to pay for the test! It's a hard test too,
way more than required to wire a house. You pay for the inspections
too sometimes.
All these permits and licenses are about money for the state.
When you pull a permit it also alerts the county property tax people.
Most of the permits go to city people. One county in NM has only one
stoplight, and it's a blinking yellow. Half the people there are ready
to secede from the US, and permits are scarce.
Mach Twain
Dae
If I knew I could put in an alternative for under 15K, I would pick this
lot up since I love the location and the neighborhood. The problem here
, atleast what I get from the county, is that a sand mound is considered
an alternative but has to meet the same 1" in 60 min rate just like a
traditional septic and other options like Aerobic systems have to meet
1" in 120 min. If the drain on the perc test is slower then that and
there is no existing dwelling on the lot, you are SOL. So as I sit
here, I'm SOL. Now I'm thinking about offering 1/2 of what they are
asking for the lot and maybe just sitting on the lot incase they change
the laws or I find some way creative to get a house built there. I
think if I wait for a law change, I'll be dead, so I proberbly have to
look at something creative. Got any idea on what the county would say
if I just started to turn all the clay over and mix it with sand and
fill dirt?
- Dae
Dae
What's a PE and how would they be able to get around a law that says if
the drain rate on a perc test is slower then 1" in 2 hrs, you can't build.
Thanks,
Dae
Edgar S.
I am interested in total composting. This is something that can be
done safely on any kind of soil. Naturally... it would seem to be a
better idea in a rural area where one wouldn't have to explain their
compost heap to all the neighbors.
Jimmy Galvin
Chose one that is specializing in septic design. He/she can figure out what
is needed to be added to the existing material to bring it to an acceptable
perc rate or figure an alternative solution.news:3EB3EB0...@speakeasy.org...
Matthew S. Whiting
If the lot is really attractive, why not do as others have suggested ...
spend a couple hundred bucks for a professional to look it over and make
a recommendation and give you an idea as to cost?
Matt
Matthew S. Whiting
> Jim,
>
> What's a PE and how would they be able to get around a law that says if
> the drain rate on a perc test is slower then 1" in 2 hrs, you can't build.
A P.E. is a Professional Engineer (I'm a P.E. licensed in NY state). It
is basically an engineer who has passed a couple of exams to be licensed
to practice engineering for the public. Each state has its own
licensing program and peculiarities. A P.E. can't get around any laws
or regulations (at least not in the sense of violating them). What they
may be able to do as show you an alternative or two that you aren't
aware of, but which meets the laws and regulations of your locale.
Matt
Matthew S. Whiting
> A PE (Professional Engineer) is an advanced rating of Civil Engineering.
> Chose one that is specializing in septic design. He/she can figure out what
> is needed to be added to the existing material to bring it to an acceptable
> perc rate or figure an alternative solution.
Wrong on many counts. The P.E. is a licensed engineer the same as an
M.D. is a licensed physician. It has nothing to do with advanced
degrees or "ratings" whatever you meant by that. Pilots are rated,
never heard that applied to engineers (I'm both a pilot and a P.E.).
Also, the P.E. is not unique to civil engineering. Many fields of
engineering are licensed, the exact fields vary by state. I took the
test in electrical engineering, but you can also take it in mechanical,
chemical and many others. I think CA has about the broadest range of
specialties, NY had only four when I took my exam in 1993.
Matt
Jimmy Galvin
degree in Civil Engineering. Then you study some more and probably work for
an Engineering firm while completing your E.I.T. (Engineer In Training).
Then you take your P.E. exam. I understand the process! I was trying to
explain it to a lay person in a way he would understand. Don't get your
panties all in a bunch.
"Matthew S. Whiting" <whi...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:3EB4640A...@epix.net...
Steve Spence
http://webconx.green-trust.org/2003/livingwithless/dailyblog.htm for some
sewer alternatives.
--
Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
http://www.green-trust.org
ssp...@green-trust.org
"JohnDoe" <joh...@home.com> wrote in message
news:79f7bvgjo06hn04jb...@4ax.com...
>
> >
> >In article <3eb2a6f6...@news.verizon.net>, v.viv...@verizon.net
(v)
> >wrote:
> >>On 1 May 2003 19:05:12 -0400, someone wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Is there a city sewer you can connect to?
> >>>
> >>Oh c'mon man, if there was, do you think he would still be asking?
> >>
> On Fri, 02 May 2003 17:59:24 GMT, ed_...@unc.edu (Ed Siff) wrote:
>
> >There are those who could get the city service, but don't want to pay for
it
> >(or the hookup, which can be very costly).
> >
>
Steve Spence
his perc test problems over time.
--
Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
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ssp...@green-trust.org
"Anthony Matonak" <res0...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:3EB2F8B1...@gte.net...
Matthew S. Whiting
> OK Matt lets pick a nit here. First you go to school and graduate with a
> degree in Civil Engineering. Then you study some more and probably work for
> an Engineering firm while completing your E.I.T. (Engineer In Training).
> Then you take your P.E. exam. I understand the process! I was trying to
> explain it to a lay person in a way he would understand. Don't get your
> panties all in a bunch.
But you don't need a degree in civil engineering to get a P.E., that's
one of the main points. You can't assume when you hire a P.E. that the
person has a clue about civil engineering in general, or soil and septic
systems in particular! Also, you don't even need an engineering degree
to get a P.E., just the requisite experience and pass the tests.
Matt
mach...@coldmail.com
>If I knew I could put in an alternative for under 15K, I would pick this
>lot up since I love the location and the neighborhood. The problem here
>, atleast what I get from the county, is that a sand mound is considered
>an alternative but has to meet the same 1" in 60 min rate just like a
>traditional septic and other options like Aerobic systems have to meet
>1" in 120 min. If the drain on the perc test is slower then that and
>there is no existing dwelling on the lot, you are SOL. So as I sit
>here, I'm SOL. Now I'm thinking about offering 1/2 of what they are
>asking for the lot and maybe just sitting on the lot incase they change
>the laws or I find some way creative to get a house built there. I
>think if I wait for a law change, I'll be dead, so I proberbly have to
>look at something creative. Got any idea on what the county would say
>if I just started to turn all the clay over and mix it with sand and
>fill dirt?
>
Many localities still allow an outhouse, no soil test required. This
could give you effective use of the property while dickering with the
gov't. You may also be able to 'camp out' in your travel trailer, no
permit required. Many localities do not require permits for any dirt
work or lot prep. If you go outlaw, or won't ever need a Cert. of
Occupancy, there are even more possibilities. 15K seems high to me,
but I don't know your locale.
Mach Twain
Steve Spence
--
Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
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ssp...@green-trust.org
"JohnDoe" <joh...@home.com> wrote in message
news:flgabvg2lk3qj578s...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 04 May 2003 11:25:48 GMT, "Steve Spence"
> <ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote:
>
> >not in the USA. over 80% of this country has no sewer hookups. check out
> >http://webconx.green-trust.org/2003/livingwithless/dailyblog.htm for some
> >sewer alternatives.
>
>
> thanks for your reply but next time try reading for comprehension, I
> said most places THAT have sewer systems, not most place have sewer
> systems
Jimmy Galvin
that he get a PE specializing in septic design. The OP has enough brains to
figure out he should not get a PE with an Aero-Space background.news:3EB51044...@epix.net...
'Captain' Kirk DeHaan
<rgth...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Is that where you use the discharge of the septic tank to sprinkle your
>lawn?
I believe all water coming from a septic tank is considered black
water.
>
>
>"Steve Spence" <ssp...@green-trust.org> wrote in message
>news:QBZra.44201$A41.6...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
>> check to see if regs will allow composting toilets and gray water
>recovery.
>> many jurisdictions will allow it if nothing else works. It's a better
>> solution anyway.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve Spence
>> Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
>> & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
>> http://www.green-trust.org
>> ssp...@green-trust.org
>> "Jimmy Galvin" <james....@mags.net> wrote in message
>> news:vb0olca...@corp.supernews.com...
>> > If it is possible to have a septic system installed on this lot an
>> engineer
>> > specializing in septic designs should be able to design it.
>> > "Dae" <web...@speakeasy.org> wrote in message
>> > news:3EB05930...@speakeasy.org...
>> > > There is a lot I really would like to purchase but it has failed PERC
>> > > and I'm told that a Sand mound will not work either. Is there any
>> > > options out there that might work here in Maryland? It's driving me
>> > > crazy because it's in the perfect location for me.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
Kirk
"There's a lot to be said
for a blow to the head", BOC.
Steve Spence
sewage.
--
Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
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ssp...@green-trust.org
"'Captain' Kirk DeHaan" <captkirk...@sandpoint.net> wrote in message
news:h6ddbvcpn110i4v6i...@4ax.com...
Matthew S. Whiting
> Matt let it go. You are just coming across as a jerk. In every post I stated
> that he get a PE specializing in septic design. The OP has enough brains to
> figure out he should not get a PE with an Aero-Space background.
If being correct makes me a jerk, so be it.
Matt
v
>There are those who could get the city service, but don't want to pay for it
>(or the hookup, which can be very costly).
>
Yes, but typically such a person would have a functioning septic
system. Usually, already installed. For new construction (even if in
an area that actually allowed people who have sewer available to not
hook into it) a normal person would only choose not to, if the septic
was more economical. In this case, the lot doesn't perc. An
"alternate" system of similar capacity would likely cost a LOT.
So I really doubt the OP has sewer available, has a lot that won't
perc, and still "chooses" not to hook up to the sewer.
-v.
v
>.... Got any idea on what the county would say
>if I just started to turn all the clay over and mix it with sand and
>fill dirt?
>
Why ask US, ask THEM.
It's easy. Just call and say (after suitable introduction):
"Could I solve my slow perc by turning all the clay over and mixing it
with sand and fill dirt?"
Then you would really know, rather than just usenet speculation.
-v.
John Gilmer
> >
> > As I recall from 3 years ago when I did mine in PA, we have the same
> > basic regulation. You have to be within some range of perc rates in
> > order to use a sand mound at all. If not, you have to use an
> > alternative system, of which there are many, but they tend to cost
> > upwards of $10,000 and have more maintenance requirements than a sand
> > mound.
$10k isn't so bad IF the government would then let you build.
Often, the difference between a $30K site and a $3K site is that one can
built a house on one and can't on the other.
Since I am not about to build and am not in the business I will not bother
to get the legal facts but it would appear that "they" don't really want
folks to put in these high tech (but high maintenance) sewage systems. If
$10k could solve the problem I know of quite a few now vacant lots with
great views that would soon have houses.
v
>
>$10k isn't so bad IF the government would then let you build.
>
The last system I put in cost around $16,000 and that is not
particularly high for around here.
-v.
mach...@coldmail.com
>The last (septic) system I put in cost around $16,000 and that is not
>particularly high for around here.
>
>-v.
I and several neighbors got ours installed in the last 4 years. A 1200
gal. concrete tank, and 100-150 ft. of infiltrators, sand mound and
conventional. Inspected by environmental department. Cost: about
$4,000 each.
I'm in an extremely rural area, maybe you are in a big city? The cost
of insuring heavy machinery in a city must be enormous.
Mach Twain