Buffy 7x04: 'Help' (S7 Spoilers)
Niall Harrison
Why is the _Buffy_ wildfeed distribution system so much more efficient
than the _Angel_ one? It's not fair, I tell you.
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When did Rebecca Rand Kirshner become good?
Seriously. 'Out Of My Mind' was poor. 'Tough Love' had some cool stuff,
but was uneven. 'Tabula Rasa'...well, it was a decent comedy episode, but
that's about it. And the less said about 'Hell's Bells' the better.
Whereas *this* - this was good. Very good. Best episode of the season
good. Fit to be mentioned in the same breath as 'Earshot' good.
Not perfect, of course...
Spike's insanity is getting a little wearing, and as a character he's
pretty much just a convenient plot device. The last scooby scene was just
a *touch* too melodramatic (I think it was Dawn in tears that tipped the
balance), since as much as I like Cassie I didn't really buy that they
were quite that attached to her. And a couple of times, Buffy came off as
*just* the wrong side of strident.
But the rest made up for any flaws. Casket infiltration. Buffy the
counsellor. Dawn being sympathetic and useful. The riffing on newsgroups
and a mention of googling. And Cassie. Mostly, there's Cassandra Newton.
I was deadly terrified that she wasn't going to die, that they were going
to undermine the story and everything it stands for. But I *liked* Cassie;
she was the best one-shot character on either show since Bethany Chaulk,
as far as I'm concerned. So that when she dropped dead, it hurt.
When I cast my five-star votes, I tend to mostly work in increments of
0.25. 'Excellent' episodes can end up with 4.5 or 4.75, depending on just
how excellent I think they are. To get the 4.75, an episode has to have
that extra something, whatever it is. I can respect 4.5s; I love 4.75s.
There wasn't a single episode in S6 that got a 4.75; in fact, I think for
_Buffy_ the most recent episode I'd give that mark would be 'Blood Ties'.
I say all of the above so that when I say I'm giving 'Help' a 4.75, you
understand what I mean by it.
Niall
--
IRC killed the Usenet star.
Dave Emberton
news:10346359...@urchin.earth.li...
Agreed. I thought it was excellent. Coupled with last weeks, S7 is really
looking up.
> Not perfect, of course...
>
> Spike's insanity is getting a little wearing, and as a character he's
> pretty much just a convenient plot device.
I didn't enjoy episode 2 much (name escapes me), mostly because of Spike's
ranting, and the same for his scene here. I also thought how it was pretty
obvious that they're doing the early-S5 thing of finding a flimsy excuse to
work him into the episode because he's one of the stars (although did we see
EC anywhere?).
> The last scooby scene was just
> a *touch* too melodramatic (I think it was Dawn in tears that tipped the
> balance), since as much as I like Cassie I didn't really buy that they
> were quite that attached to her. And a couple of times, Buffy came off as
> *just* the wrong side of strident.
Yes, Dawn's tears were taking things a bit too far.
>
> But the rest made up for any flaws. Casket infiltration. Buffy the
> counsellor. Dawn being sympathetic and useful. The riffing on newsgroups
> and a mention of googling. And Cassie. Mostly, there's Cassandra Newton.
> I was deadly terrified that she wasn't going to die, that they were going
> to undermine the story and everything it stands for. But I *liked* Cassie;
> she was the best one-shot character on either show since Bethany Chaulk,
> as far as I'm concerned. So that when she dropped dead, it hurt.
It did indeed. On the one hand I was hoping they'd be brave enough to let
her die, and on the other hand, I was really hoping they'd save her and make
her a regular character. Getting Azura Skye back in a semi-regular role
might have been difficult I suspect, which is a shame, because having a
clairvoyant around might well have been useful.
I couldn't figure out where I knew Azura Skye from, but of course she was
Jane in "Zoe, Duncan, Jack and Jane". With blonde hair I thought she looked
like a younger Drew Barrymore.
Buffy the guidance counciller I liked (but shouldn't they give her a private
office if she's meant to be talking privately to the kids?). Back on UMTB a
while back, there was a thread about our hopes for S7, and one of the things
I remember saying was that I hoped Buffy would find a proper job, that she
enjoyed and was good at, and would fit in with the slaying. Looks like it
might be coming true.
> When I cast my five-star votes, I tend to mostly work in increments of
> 0.25. 'Excellent' episodes can end up with 4.5 or 4.75, depending on just
> how excellent I think they are. To get the 4.75, an episode has to have
> that extra something, whatever it is. I can respect 4.5s; I love 4.75s.
> There wasn't a single episode in S6 that got a 4.75; in fact, I think for
> _Buffy_ the most recent episode I'd give that mark would be 'Blood Ties'.
>
> I say all of the above so that when I say I'm giving 'Help' a 4.75, you
> understand what I mean by it.
I take it we're not counting properly yet, but I'd probably go 4.5. Good
stuff.
Dave
Mattia Valente
> Why is the _Buffy_ wildfeed distribution system so much more efficient
> than the _Angel_ one? It's not fair, I tell you.
Meh. You can get the spanking far far prettier SVCD way faster for
Angel. Why even bother with the wildfeed?
Damn straight.
> Seriously. 'Out Of My Mind' was poor. 'Tough Love' had some cool stuff,
> but was uneven. 'Tabula Rasa'...well, it was a decent comedy episode, but
> that's about it. And the less said about 'Hell's Bells' the better.
Heh...
This, now, this was classy. Very, very tight.
> Whereas *this* - this was good. Very good. Best episode of the season
> good. Fit to be mentioned in the same breath as 'Earshot' good.
Agreed on all counts. It's solid, feels 'right', feels 'good', and
doesn't really overdo much of anything. It's goodness, I tells ya, and
quite likely one of the best standalones of the past seasons. Either show.
> Not perfect, of course...
Ok then...
> Spike's insanity is getting a little wearing, and as a character he's
> pretty much just a convenient plot device.
Why? His looniness didn't contribute much to any solution in this case.
More of a Buffy trying out more or less anything. Besides, he was hardly
IN the episode, he didn't go all totally off his rocker like he has in
past eps, and, for me, this worked very well. Because it was relatievely
restrained.
> The last scooby scene was just
> a *touch* too melodramatic (I think it was Dawn in tears that tipped the
> balance), since as much as I like Cassie I didn't really buy that they
> were quite that attached to her. And a couple of times, Buffy came off as
> *just* the wrong side of strident.
I think that's your englishness shining through, Niall. No, really. The
tears? Not really any big surprise there. Realistic, good, and the
tension the scene had worked for me. As for Buffy, and strident...where,
exactly?
> But the rest made up for any flaws. Casket infiltration. Buffy the
> counsellor.
That went far, far better than I'd imagined possible.
> Dawn being sympathetic and useful. The riffing on newsgroups
> and a mention of googling.
And fanfic. :-)
> And Cassie. Mostly, there's Cassandra Newton.
> I was deadly terrified that she wasn't going to die, that they were going
> to undermine the story and everything it stands for. But I *liked* Cassie;
> she was the best one-shot character on either show since Bethany Chaulk,
> as far as I'm concerned. So that when she dropped dead, it hurt.
Agreed. Very, very strong, managed to make her very real, her whole
world grow, within the very limited amount of time they had, and they
didn't end it all 'simple daft solution' stylee, which was, perhaps,
what plagued last week's ep.
> I say all of the above so that when I say I'm giving 'Help' a 4.75, you
> understand what I mean by it.
\o/
I knew you'd like it. I felt it, somehow. I'm still not so sure what you
find so wrong about this week's Angel Escapade.
Mattia
--
"Tim Mewling Fucking Sodding Balls Minear" - Tim signing off in
umta
Niall Harrison
f> Niall Harrison wrote:
>> Why is the _Buffy_ wildfeed distribution system so much more efficient
>> than the _Angel_ one? It's not fair, I tell you.
>
> Meh. You can get the spanking far far prettier SVCD way faster for
> Angel. Why even bother with the wildfeed?
Because SVCDs suck. :-D
Preach it!
>> Whereas *this* - this was good. Very good. Best episode of the season
>> good. Fit to be mentioned in the same breath as 'Earshot' good.
>
> Agreed on all counts. It's solid, feels 'right', feels 'good', and
> doesn't really overdo much of anything. It's goodness, I tells ya, and
> quite likely one of the best standalones of the past seasons. Either show.
Pretty much. As ever, depends where you draw the standalone/arc line
though, I suspect. :)
>> Spike's insanity is getting a little wearing, and as a character he's
>> pretty much just a convenient plot device.
>
> Why? His looniness didn't contribute much to any solution in this case.
It felt like the token Spike scene, and then he just happens to turn up at
the right moment to help out. Again.
>> The last scooby scene was just
>> a *touch* too melodramatic (I think it was Dawn in tears that tipped the
>> balance), since as much as I like Cassie I didn't really buy that they
>> were quite that attached to her. And a couple of times, Buffy came off as
>> *just* the wrong side of strident.
>
> I think that's your englishness shining through, Niall. No, really. The
> tears? Not really any big surprise there. Realistic, good, and the
> tension the scene had worked for me.
Nah, sorry, still not buying Dawn caring that much that fast.
> As for Buffy, and strident...where, exactly?
Several points during her investigation. Barging into Cassie's father's
house, for instance - some more tact might have come in handy.
>> Dawn being sympathetic and useful. The riffing on newsgroups
>> and a mention of googling.
>
> And fanfic. :-)
Of course. :)
And check this out:
http://www.geocities.com/newcassie/
> I knew you'd like it. I felt it, somehow. I'm still not so sure what you
> find so wrong about this week's Angel Escapade.
I watched it again, and it was better, but still not great. Maybe
something in the mid-3s. Quite a lot of style, very little substance, a
bit disjointed and some truly random plot points.
Niall
--
What you've never dreamed, you can't lose.
Dan Milburn
wrote:
Heh. I thought it was really rather poor.
>Not perfect, of course...
A very long distance from perfect.
>The last scooby scene was just
>a *touch* too melodramatic (I think it was Dawn in tears that tipped the
>balance), since as much as I like Cassie I didn't really buy that they
>were quite that attached to her.
Not in the slightest.
> And a couple of times, Buffy came off as
>*just* the wrong side of strident.
You mean several miles? Buffy really irritated me. And the number of
things she did which should have got her immediately fired from the
job as counsellor...
>But the rest made up for any flaws. Casket infiltration. Buffy the
>counsellor.
See above. Plus, I find the whole notion entirely unconvincing.
Buffy may *need* counselling, but I don't buy her giving it to others.
> Dawn being sympathetic and useful.
That I liked.
> The riffing on newsgroups
>and a mention of googling.
Well, let's face it, there was sod all else in the ep to be amused by.
> And Cassie. Mostly, there's Cassandra Newton.
>I was deadly terrified that she wasn't going to die, that they were going
>to undermine the story and everything it stands for.
But what, exactly, does it stand for? I'm seriously confused on what
the point of the whole thing was.
> But I *liked* Cassie;
>she was the best one-shot character on either show since Bethany Chaulk,
Is there much competition for that title? At least Bethany didn't
need stupid voice-overed poetry..
>as far as I'm concerned. So that when she dropped dead, it hurt.
Wasn't feeling it. At all. I'm not saying she wasn't likeable, she
was, but it didn't impact on me in the slightest.
>When I cast my five-star votes, I tend to mostly work in increments of
>0.25. 'Excellent' episodes can end up with 4.5 or 4.75, depending on just
>how excellent I think they are. To get the 4.75, an episode has to have
>that extra something, whatever it is. I can respect 4.5s; I love 4.75s.
>There wasn't a single episode in S6 that got a 4.75; in fact, I think for
>_Buffy_ the most recent episode I'd give that mark would be 'Blood Ties'.
>
>I say all of the above so that when I say I'm giving 'Help' a 4.75, you
>understand what I mean by it.
Unless I have a big change of heart, it's getting a 3.
Dan
Liz
> Niall Harrison wrote:
> > Why is the _Buffy_ wildfeed distribution system so much more efficient
> > than the _Angel_ one? It's not fair, I tell you.
Quit moaning. You saw them both before the Americans.
> Meh. You can get the spanking far far prettier SVCD way faster for
> Angel. Why even bother with the wildfeed?
Becuase he's a weakling who can't resist reading the early bird reviews.
I don't think it's fantastic, but it was good. Probably better than any
standalone of s6.
> > Not perfect, of course...
>
> Ok then...
>
> > Spike's insanity is getting a little wearing, and as a character he's
> > pretty much just a convenient plot device.
>
> Why? His looniness didn't contribute much to any solution in this case.
> More of a Buffy trying out more or less anything. Besides, he was hardly
> IN the episode, he didn't go all totally off his rocker like he has in
> past eps, and, for me, this worked very well. Because it was relatievely
> restrained.
He was in the episodes so little I felt they could ahve left him out
entirely, if they didn't need him to come charging in and save the day at
the end.
> > The last scooby scene was just
> > a *touch* too melodramatic (I think it was Dawn in tears that tipped the
> > balance), since as much as I like Cassie I didn't really buy that they
> > were quite that attached to her. And a couple of times, Buffy came off as
> > *just* the wrong side of strident.
>
> I think that's your englishness shining through, Niall. No, really. The
> tears? Not really any big surprise there. Realistic, good, and the
> tension the scene had worked for me.
Dawn's a high school student. She's supposed to be 15/16? I think most high
schoolers would be moved to tears by *anyone* in their class dying, whether
they knew them well or not. Especially when their superpower-equipped sister
had just spectacularly failed to save her.
> > But the rest made up for any flaws. Casket infiltration. Buffy the
> > counsellor.
>
> That went far, far better than I'd imagined possible.
Excpet for the bit where she visit's Cassie's father. Which would have
pretty much instantly got her the sack I think, especially taking Xander
along with.
> > Dawn being sympathetic and useful. The riffing on newsgroups
> > and a mention of googling.
>
> And fanfic. :-)
Doogie Howser fanfic, no less.
> I knew you'd like it. I felt it, somehow. I'm still not so sure what you
> find so wrong about this week's Angel Escapade.
He's weird. Not that you aren't, you American-accented freak.
--
www.singlelensreflex.co.uk
www.livejournal.com/~despotliz
"Very occasionally, if you really pay attention, life doesn't suck."
- Joss Whedon
Mattia Valente
> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
> f> Niall Harrison wrote:
>
>>>Why is the _Buffy_ wildfeed distribution system so much more efficient
>>>than the _Angel_ one? It's not fair, I tell you.
>>
>>Meh. You can get the spanking far far prettier SVCD way faster for
>>Angel. Why even bother with the wildfeed?
>
> Because SVCDs suck. :-D
If you ever get a chance to watch one properly, or see what the Angel
SVCD looks like compared to the VCD, you'll change your mind.
Screenshots should do the trick, even.
AMEN!
>>>Whereas *this* - this was good. Very good. Best episode of the season
>>>good. Fit to be mentioned in the same breath as 'Earshot' good.
>>
>>Agreed on all counts. It's solid, feels 'right', feels 'good', and
>>doesn't really overdo much of anything. It's goodness, I tells ya, and
>>quite likely one of the best standalones of the past seasons. Either show.
>
> Pretty much. As ever, depends where you draw the standalone/arc line
> though, I suspect. :)
Well, ok. I call this a standalone because the main story, the main
thrust, the reality of the situation for the characters here and now is
predominantly in the now. There are nice little hints at possible future
developemnts, but that doesn't make it an arc episode. They're added
bonuses.
>>>Spike's insanity is getting a little wearing, and as a character he's
>>>pretty much just a convenient plot device.
>>
>>Why? His looniness didn't contribute much to any solution in this case.
>
> It felt like the token Spike scene, and then he just happens to turn up at
> the right moment to help out. Again.
Yes, very true. When I saw him, I was 'oh, right, they had to put Spike
in. Um, okay then.'
>>I think that's your englishness shining through, Niall. No, really. The
>>tears? Not really any big surprise there. Realistic, good, and the
>>tension the scene had worked for me.
>
> Nah, sorry, still not buying Dawn caring that much that fast.
Why can't she be a soppy agnsty teen?
>>As for Buffy, and strident...where, exactly?
>
> Several points during her investigation. Barging into Cassie's father's
> house, for instance - some more tact might have come in handy.
OK, yes. But for some reason, it worked for me. It was incredibly
akward, and actually pretty stupid, but I felt it was her desperation
coming out; little time, and no CLUE what the hell is actually going on.
>>>Dawn being sympathetic and useful. The riffing on newsgroups
>>>and a mention of googling.
>>
>>And fanfic. :-)
>
> Of course. :)
Slash was the only thing that was missing...
> And check this out:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/newcassie/
Saw it already. Brilliant.
>>I knew you'd like it. I felt it, somehow. I'm still not so sure what you
>>find so wrong about this week's Angel Escapade.
>
> I watched it again, and it was better, but still not great. Maybe
> something in the mid-3s. Quite a lot of style, very little substance, a
> bit disjointed and some truly random plot points.
The Smooch[tm]. I'm still sorta hoping our little catburglar does
recurring, sorta. 'cause she's hot, and because there's enough setup to
run with.
Mattia
--
"It's low stress and the only place I get called "fucking," and
that's always funny." - Tim Minear, on why uk.media.tv.angel is
such a great place
Dave Emberton
> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
> f> Niall Harrison wrote:
> >> Why is the _Buffy_ wildfeed distribution system so much more efficient
> >> than the _Angel_ one? It's not fair, I tell you.
> >
> > Meh. You can get the spanking far far prettier SVCD way faster for
> > Angel. Why even bother with the wildfeed?
>
> Because SVCDs suck. :-D
Don't understand that, but...
> And check this out:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/newcassie/
Some people just have way too much time ;-)
Niall Harrison
> Niall Harrison wrote:
>> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
>> f> Niall Harrison wrote:
>>
>>>>Why is the _Buffy_ wildfeed distribution system so much more efficient
>>>>than the _Angel_ one? It's not fair, I tell you.
>>>
>>>Meh. You can get the spanking far far prettier SVCD way faster for
>>>Angel. Why even bother with the wildfeed?
>>
>> Because SVCDs suck. :-D
>
> If you ever get a chance to watch one properly, or see what the Angel
> SVCD looks like compared to the VCD, you'll change your mind.
> Screenshots should do the trick, even.
I very much doubt it. I'm not a quality ho like you.
Also getting vaguely spoilery for this week's _Angel_ now.
Word!
>>>>Whereas *this* - this was good. Very good. Best episode of the season
>>>>good. Fit to be mentioned in the same breath as 'Earshot' good.
>>>
>>>Agreed on all counts. It's solid, feels 'right', feels 'good', and
>>>doesn't really overdo much of anything. It's goodness, I tells ya, and
>>>quite likely one of the best standalones of the past seasons. Either show.
>>
>> Pretty much. As ever, depends where you draw the standalone/arc line
>> though, I suspect. :)
>
> Well, ok. I call this a standalone because the main story, the main
> thrust, the reality of the situation for the characters here and now is
> predominantly in the now. There are nice little hints at possible future
> developemnts, but that doesn't make it an arc episode. They're added
> bonuses.
Sure, this is a standalone. But what about 'Waiting In The Wings'? OMWF?
>>>>Spike's insanity is getting a little wearing, and as a character he's
>>>>pretty much just a convenient plot device.
>>>
>>>Why? His looniness didn't contribute much to any solution in this case.
>>
>> It felt like the token Spike scene, and then he just happens to turn up at
>> the right moment to help out. Again.
>
> Yes, very true. When I saw him, I was 'oh, right, they had to put Spike
> in. Um, okay then.'
I had a similar problem with Connor in 'Ground State', although that was a
little neater.
>>>I think that's your englishness shining through, Niall. No, really. The
>>>tears? Not really any big surprise there. Realistic, good, and the
>>>tension the scene had worked for me.
>>
>> Nah, sorry, still not buying Dawn caring that much that fast.
>
> Why can't she be a soppy agnsty teen?
Look, it just doesn't feel right for the character to me.
>>>As for Buffy, and strident...where, exactly?
>>
>> Several points during her investigation. Barging into Cassie's father's
>> house, for instance - some more tact might have come in handy.
>
> OK, yes. But for some reason, it worked for me. It was incredibly
> akward, and actually pretty stupid, but I felt it was her desperation
> coming out; little time, and no CLUE what the hell is actually going on.
Yes, I get that. Still, it was almost like she was turning into Cordelia
there for a minute.
(Is Terry reading this? Am I just baiting him? :-)
>>>>Dawn being sympathetic and useful. The riffing on newsgroups
>>>>and a mention of googling.
>>>
>>>And fanfic. :-)
>>
>> Of course. :)
>
> Slash was the only thing that was missing...
And let's all be thankful for that.
I can't believe this ep hasn't aired in the states yet. It feels ages
since I saw it.
>> And check this out:
>>
>> http://www.geocities.com/newcassie/
>
> Saw it already. Brilliant.
Done by someone at ME, presumably. Guess they realised they missed the
boat with illneverknowtheloveofawoman.com.
>>>I knew you'd like it. I felt it, somehow. I'm still not so sure what you
>>>find so wrong about this week's Angel Escapade.
>>
>> I watched it again, and it was better, but still not great. Maybe
>> something in the mid-3s. Quite a lot of style, very little substance, a
>> bit disjointed and some truly random plot points.
>
> The Smooch[tm].
That, and the Gunn thing. Very cheap.
> I'm still sorta hoping our little catburglar does recurring, sorta.
> 'cause she's hot, and because there's enough setup to run with.
She's got possibilities, but I think she's about the first potential
recurring _Angel_ has introduced that I haven't been at least a little
intrigued by. Even Linwood seemed interesting, way back in 'Quickening'.
OK, so he went downhill fast, but still.
Niall Harrison
>>And Cassie. Mostly, there's Cassandra Newton.
>>I was deadly terrified that she wasn't going to die, that they were going
>>to undermine the story and everything it stands for.
>
> But what, exactly, does it stand for? I'm seriously confused on what
> the point of the whole thing was.
Short version? Accept your limitations, I think.
Niall
--
When memes collide.
Shuggie
wrote:
>
>
She's been good for a while - but this wasn't her best work.
>Seriously. 'Out Of My Mind' was poor. 'Tough Love' had some cool stuff,
>but was uneven. 'Tabula Rasa'...well, it was a decent comedy episode, but
>that's about it. And the less said about 'Hell's Bells' the better.
>
Hells Bells had the scene with Buffy and Spike - which ok Joss wrote -
but it was pretty darn good.
Tabula Rasa is one of my favourites ever.
>Whereas *this* - this was good. Very good. Best episode of the season
>good. Fit to be mentioned in the same breath as 'Earshot' good.
>
hmmm. Which episode did you guys watch? Cos the one I watched wasn't
that great. It wasn't that anything - kinda bland in fact.
>Not perfect, of course...
>
>Spike's insanity is getting a little wearing, and as a character he's
>pretty much just a convenient plot device.
I felt they used it sparingly here. There wasn't much babbling.
Whereas for me the whole episode was an excuse for a couple of suitably
vague prophecies. One about Spike "some day she's gonna tell you" and
one about Buffy "you will make a difference"
>The last scooby scene was just
>a *touch* too melodramatic (I think it was Dawn in tears that tipped the
>balance),
Just a touch?
>since as much as I like Cassie I didn't really buy that they
>were quite that attached to her.
I thought they'd raised Joyce and killed her again. I'm surprised Joyce
didn't get a reference.
>And a couple of times, Buffy came off as
>*just* the wrong side of strident.
>
That's just Buffy - she's always been one not to take any 'guff' when
she's on the trail of some nasty.
>But the rest made up for any flaws.
It did? Did you not hear the hammer/nail story? the poetry? Dear God the
poetry! "the pale fish will never swim"???
>Casket infiltration. Buffy the
>counsellor.
Did anyone else think Six Feet Under? I thought that from the moment we
overhead the funeral directors talking about how well they've made that
woman look and then the score for Buffy in counsellor mode was *very*
reminiscent of the 6FU theme.
>Dawn being sympathetic and useful.
..and annoying. I'm noticing a trend for Dawn to speak like a bad
impression of a noir-ish crime novel detective. "I've got the perp
fingered", "let's collar him before he lawyers up"?
I was the one who said that Dawn could be made likeable enough in a
season to carry off a spin-off. Now I'm doubting it.
>The riffing on newsgroups
>and a mention of googling.
Willow wrote Doogie Howser fanfic! I've never loved her more :))
Though did anyone else's heart sink just a little when she told Xander
"I'm over you sweetie"? I mean I never thought they'd get back together,
and I think it would be a travesty to turn her straight again. But
there's something about finally completely closing that chapter of her
life that's sorta sad.
>And Cassie. Mostly, there's Cassandra Newton.
She was an excellent actress. She carried off the "I'd like to..."
speech well, even though from a writing point of view it felt clunky -
it was too obviously put there to make us feel sympathy for/liking of
Cassie. It worked - but I was too aware of it working to be really
moving.
>I was deadly terrified that she wasn't going to die, that they were going
>to undermine the story and everything it stands for.
I wasn't. Once she'd given Spike a prediction that was more meaningful
that "you'll spill coffee on your shirt" I knew that *all* her
predictions had to come true - to give that one credibility.
>But I *liked* Cassie;
>she was the best one-shot character on either show since Bethany Chaulk,
>as far as I'm concerned. So that when she dropped dead, it hurt.
>
She wasn't quite that good and I can think of others as good (as
Cassie).
>When I cast my five-star votes, I tend to mostly work in increments of
>0.25. 'Excellent' episodes can end up with 4.5 or 4.75, depending on just
>how excellent I think they are. To get the 4.75, an episode has to have
>that extra something, whatever it is. I can respect 4.5s; I love 4.75s.
>There wasn't a single episode in S6 that got a 4.75; in fact, I think for
>_Buffy_ the most recent episode I'd give that mark would be 'Blood Ties'.
>
>I say all of the above so that when I say I'm giving 'Help' a 4.75, you
>understand what I mean by it.
>
I like to vote in .25's too. I fight my natural tendency never to give a
5 because otherwise you're really voting in 4.75 star poll. When the
time comes I think it'll be around 3.
Other stuff I didn't like (that I haven't already mentioned)
- kinda predictable - as soon as the kid mentioned a snake tattoo I was
thinking Reptile Boy II then a few minutes later we had kids in robes.
Plus I already mentioned the fact that we knew Cassie would die.
- the ending. I guess they were saying that even when you know you can't
help you go right on trying to help anyway? or that you help the next
person along - saving one soul at a time, killing one vamp at a time. I
get it. They've just made the point better elsewhere.
- Xander is what now? Random interchangeable sidekick? He didn't do
much.
- the lame demon really was lame. Plus it was kinda - whoops there's a
demon, whoops he's dead, oh hi Spike.
Let's finish on a positive - Stuff I did like -
+ The counsellor scenes worked for me. A nice mini-montage of humour and
serious stuff. The girl who's fighting back against the insecure types
(we need to see her again :) ), the kid who's brother's going to the
marines. It did a nice job of convincing me that Buffy can do this job.
(though she has a very understanding principal - threatening to kit a
kid, accusing a parent - those are pretty serious)
+ The drunk father. That whole scene was a bit far-fetched and pointless
but the actor put in an excellent performance for such a small part. He
made you aware he wasn't sober without going overboard. You felt his
sense of his own failings even while he stood up for his rights to see
his daughter.
+ Mike Howdenberg (Cassie's friend/potential date). Nice
'friendship-maybe-more' chemistry between him and Cassie. Reminded me of
kind of inter-Scooby chemistry when they were that age.
+ the "actually she's *my* sister joke" - nicely underplayed and left to
grow rather than telegraphed.
+ Buffy's "you're asking out my sister and she's you're 2nd choice?"
+ catching an arrow like that is always cool. Faith/Angel in 5x5 was
cooler mind.
+ "I'd love to see my cousins grow up and see how they turn out 'cos
they're really mean and I think they're gonna be fat!"
Summary attempt #1 -
There's a line where Buffy says "Buffy the Vampire Slayer would kick
this door down", "and Buffy the Counsellor?" replies Xander. This
episode felt like we were watching a new show call Buffy the Guidance
Counsellor. It's kinda fun but it's not a patch on the old show.
Summary attempt #2 -
I've watched it 3 times now - once more whilst writing this to get some
references - and I'm convinced that there's a really excellent Buffy
episode in here trying to get out. It's full of classic Buffy themes.
The fact that you can't always help, that it's worth the fight even if
you know you can't win. Cassie's a young girl who's never going to have
a normal life - ice-skating and going to the dance etc - because of fate
- and Buffy's still fighting against that and still losing. But like a
lot of S6 episodes the potential isn't fully realized. If this had had a
couple extra drafts - if Joss wasn't trying to run three shows - I can
see this could be the new 'Lie to Me'.
Hmm. Just for that maybe 3.5 :)
--
Shug
I knew it! I knew it! Well, not 'knew it' in the sense of having the
slightest idea, but I knew there was something I didn't know.
Mattia Valente
> In article <3DAC439...@std.vu.nl>, mae.v...@std.vu.nl says...
>
>>Niall Harrison wrote:
>>
>>>Why is the _Buffy_ wildfeed distribution system so much more efficient
>>>than the _Angel_ one? It's not fair, I tell you.
>>
>
> Quit moaning. You saw them both before the Americans.
:-p
>>Meh. You can get the spanking far far prettier SVCD way faster for
>>Angel. Why even bother with the wildfeed?
>
> Becuase he's a weakling who can't resist reading the early bird reviews.
Ah, yes. That.
>>This, now, this was classy. Very, very tight.
>
> I don't think it's fantastic, but it was good. Probably better than any
> standalone of s6.
WOO!
>>I think that's your englishness shining through, Niall. No, really. The
>>tears? Not really any big surprise there. Realistic, good, and the
>>tension the scene had worked for me.
>
> Dawn's a high school student. She's supposed to be 15/16? I think most high
> schoolers would be moved to tears by *anyone* in their class dying, whether
> they knew them well or not. Especially when their superpower-equipped sister
> had just spectacularly failed to save her.
Wisdom casa Lizzo. Go Liz!
> Excpet for the bit where she visit's Cassie's father. Which would have
> pretty much instantly got her the sack I think, especially taking Xander
> along with.
Quite possibly. But Dad seemed pretty laid back about it all, considering.
>> > Dawn being sympathetic and useful. The riffing on newsgroups
>>
>>>and a mention of googling.
>>
>>And fanfic. :-)
>
> Doogie Howser fanfic, no less.
:o)
>>I knew you'd like it. I felt it, somehow. I'm still not so sure what you
>>find so wrong about this week's Angel Escapade.
>
> He's weird. Not that you aren't, you American-accented freak.
Ouch. That stings.
:-p
Shuggie
<snip>
>>>I knew you'd like it. I felt it, somehow. I'm still not so sure what you
>>>find so wrong about this week's Angel Escapade.
>>
>> I watched it again, and it was better, but still not great. Maybe
>> something in the mid-3s. Quite a lot of style, very little substance, a
>> bit disjointed and some truly random plot points.
>
>The Smooch[tm]. I'm still sorta hoping our little catburglar does
>recurring, sorta. 'cause she's hot, and because there's enough setup to
>run with.
Sorry to whinge - but try to remember that someone who's up to date on
isn't necessarily on Angel. I was in that boat last year and it drove me
mad when people made cross-references without changing the spoiler
warnings.
Thanks
Mattia Valente
Can I say 'dawg'?
>>Well, ok. I call this a standalone because the main story, the main
>>thrust, the reality of the situation for the characters here and now is
>>predominantly in the now. There are nice little hints at possible future
>>developemnts, but that doesn't make it an arc episode. They're added
>>bonuses.
>
> Sure, this is a standalone. But what about 'Waiting In The Wings'? OMWF?
WitW, mostly, yes. Because, well, it is. It has a number of character
arc moments in it, though. OMWF not so much, because it ties up a lot of
older threads and kicks off a bunch of new ones, and lots of character
(main character) arcing. They're less clearcut. This one's pretty
straightforward.
>>Yes, very true. When I saw him, I was 'oh, right, they had to put Spike
>>in. Um, okay then.'
>
> I had a similar problem with Connor in 'Ground State', although that was a
> little neater.
Possibly because he was off in the distance. And not speaking.
>>>Nah, sorry, still not buying Dawn caring that much that fast.
>>
>>Why can't she be a soppy agnsty teen?
>
> Look, it just doesn't feel right for the character to me.
I'm with Liz on this one. You need to watch more footage from US High
School dramatic death incidents. Everyone's bawling, despite the fact
most of the kids didn't necessarily know anyone involved.
>>OK, yes. But for some reason, it worked for me. It was incredibly
>>akward, and actually pretty stupid, but I felt it was her desperation
>>coming out; little time, and no CLUE what the hell is actually going on.
>
> Yes, I get that. Still, it was almost like she was turning into Cordelia
> there for a minute.
Heh..
> (Is Terry reading this? Am I just baiting him? :-)
"Tune in again next time and find out!"
>>>>>Dawn being sympathetic and useful. The riffing on newsgroups
>>>>>and a mention of googling.
>>>>
>>>>And fanfic. :-)
>>>
>>>Of course. :)
>>
>>Slash was the only thing that was missing...
>
> And let's all be thankful for that.
Well, yeah, we had enough of that to last us a good long while two weeks
back.
> I can't believe this ep hasn't aired in the states yet. It feels ages
> since I saw it.
Hehehe...
>>>And check this out:
>>>
>>>http://www.geocities.com/newcassie/
>>
>>Saw it already. Brilliant.
>
> Done by someone at ME, presumably. Guess they realised they missed the
> boat with illneverknowtheloveofawoman.com.
:-)
>>The Smooch[tm].
>
> That, and the Gunn thing. Very cheap.
Ah, right. Because nobody bought it.
>>I'm still sorta hoping our little catburglar does recurring, sorta.
>>'cause she's hot, and because there's enough setup to run with.
>
> She's got possibilities, but I think she's about the first potential
> recurring _Angel_ has introduced that I haven't been at least a little
> intrigued by. Even Linwood seemed interesting, way back in 'Quickening'.
> OK, so he went downhill fast, but still.
See, now, I never liked Linwood. He just seemed...annoying. All talk, no
threat.
Mattia
--
"Too many obsessions to list. My obsessions have obsessions." -
Steve DeKnight
Niall Harrison
No. And you can't say 'bro', either.
>>>Well, ok. I call this a standalone because the main story, the main
>>>thrust, the reality of the situation for the characters here and now is
>>>predominantly in the now. There are nice little hints at possible future
>>>developemnts, but that doesn't make it an arc episode. They're added
>>>bonuses.
>>
>> Sure, this is a standalone. But what about 'Waiting In The Wings'? OMWF?
>
> WitW, mostly, yes. Because, well, it is.
Right. Then I think it pips this one (although only just).
>>>Yes, very true. When I saw him, I was 'oh, right, they had to put Spike
>>>in. Um, okay then.'
>>
>> I had a similar problem with Connor in 'Ground State', although that was a
>> little neater.
>
> Possibly because he was off in the distance. And not speaking.
More that Lilah had a reason to be there, and Angel had a reason to see
Lilah. It was still clunky, but...I dunno. Didn't feel quite as obvious.
>>>OK, yes. But for some reason, it worked for me. It was incredibly
>>>akward, and actually pretty stupid, but I felt it was her desperation
>>>coming out; little time, and no CLUE what the hell is actually going on.
>>
>> Yes, I get that. Still, it was almost like she was turning into Cordelia
>> there for a minute.
>
> Heh..
If she dies her hair brown, we'll know it's happening.
>>>>>>Dawn being sympathetic and useful. The riffing on newsgroups
>>>>>>and a mention of googling.
>>>>>
>>>>>And fanfic. :-)
>>>>
>>>>Of course. :)
>>>
>>>Slash was the only thing that was missing...
>>
>> And let's all be thankful for that.
>
> Well, yeah, we had enough of that to last us a good long while two weeks
> back.
I'd never thought of Xander and Spike in that way, you know.
>> I can't believe this ep hasn't aired in the states yet. It feels ages
>> since I saw it.
>
> Hehehe...
I just recommended it to a friend of mine in the states. :-)
>>>The Smooch[tm].
>>
>> That, and the Gunn thing. Very cheap.
>
> Ah, right. Because nobody bought it.
Because they were old-fashioned cliffhangers - purely there to generate
suspense (or try). They had little to no meaning beyond the fact of being
cliffhangers.
>>>I'm still sorta hoping our little catburglar does recurring, sorta.
>>>'cause she's hot, and because there's enough setup to run with.
>>
>> She's got possibilities, but I think she's about the first potential
>> recurring _Angel_ has introduced that I haven't been at least a little
>> intrigued by. Even Linwood seemed interesting, way back in 'Quickening'.
>> OK, so he went downhill fast, but still.
>
> See, now, I never liked Linwood. He just seemed...annoying. All talk, no
> threat.
Bring back Nathan, that's what I say.
Niall
--
Verbing weirds language.
Dan Milburn
wrote:
Uh-huh. I thought they covered that in much more detail with Joyces
illness in S5..
When I say confused on what the point was, I mean, what did it say
that they haven't said before?
Dan
pikelet
<s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> is twanging, all Hoob-like, at me. I calmly
say:
>That, and the Gunn thing. Very cheap.
Nope.
We need to know that Gwen can start somebody's heart. So we get her
killing Gunn, then reviving him. This is so that, in turn, she can do
the same later to Angel's heart and we don't get the audience going
'Huh? But all her powers can do is kill!'.
Can't you see set-up when it's staring you in the face?
Now the first few minutes of TNPLPG - *that's* cheap.
Tim.
--
Boom biddy boom biddy boom biddy boom biddy boom
biddy boom biddy boom boom boom.
Chris Ashby
Almost "Lie to me" good IMO. Similar themes, too.
Sieue
the usenet posting while I'm here.
"Niall Harrison" <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:10346359...@urchin.earth.li...
>
>
> Why is the _Buffy_ wildfeed distribution system so much more efficient
> than the _Angel_ one? It's not fair, I tell you.
Is it? There's not too much of a problem getting either, IME. Especially
not for leechers like you... :P
Hmm.
> Seriously. 'Out Of My Mind' was poor. 'Tough Love' had some cool stuff,
> but was uneven. 'Tabula Rasa'...well, it was a decent comedy episode, but
> that's about it. And the less said about 'Hell's Bells' the better.
Out Of My Mind was decent. Tough Love was great. Tabula Rasa was GENIUS.
Hell's Bells I agree with you on.
> Whereas *this* - this was good. Very good. Best episode of the season
> good. Fit to be mentioned in the same breath as 'Earshot' good.
Uhhh, no. I have now seen this episode 2 and a half times (through no fault
of my own, believe it or not). The first one and a half times, it was
brilliant - back to, at least, S3 standard in story and S1 in writing. I
was a happy man (although I wouldn't have said it was Earshot-good by *any*
means). Sadly, I watched it again, and it looks like a cheap S1 episode.
It really doesn't stand up to repeated viewing.
> Not perfect, of course...
>
> Spike's insanity is getting a little wearing, and as a character he's
> pretty much just a convenient plot device. The last scooby scene was just
> a *touch* too melodramatic (I think it was Dawn in tears that tipped the
> balance), since as much as I like Cassie I didn't really buy that they
> were quite that attached to her. And a couple of times, Buffy came off as
> *just* the wrong side of strident.
Check, agreeage. Woah.
> But the rest made up for any flaws. Casket infiltration. Buffy the
> counsellor. Dawn being sympathetic and useful. The riffing on newsgroups
> and a mention of googling.
I thought this was cringeworthy, but I did like the Dougie Howser fanfic
thing. No, Joss, you can't *be* us, sorry. :-)
> And Cassie. Mostly, there's Cassandra Newton.
> I was deadly terrified that she wasn't going to die, that they were going
> to undermine the story and everything it stands for. But I *liked* Cassie;
> she was the best one-shot character on either show since Bethany Chaulk,
> as far as I'm concerned. So that when she dropped dead, it hurt.
Although she kinda looked like someone had stuck something up her arse, but
I've never seen anyone drop dead like that so I suppose I can't really
judge...
> When I cast my five-star votes, I tend to mostly work in increments of
> 0.25. 'Excellent' episodes can end up with 4.5 or 4.75, depending on just
> how excellent I think they are. To get the 4.75, an episode has to have
> that extra something, whatever it is. I can respect 4.5s; I love 4.75s.
> There wasn't a single episode in S6 that got a 4.75; in fact, I think for
> _Buffy_ the most recent episode I'd give that mark would be 'Blood Ties'.
>
> I say all of the above so that when I say I'm giving 'Help' a 4.75, you
> understand what I mean by it.
Yes, I think I do. You liked "Help" but not "Ground State", and you liked
"Help" that much. *shudder*
Andrew Cameron
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.400 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 09/10/2002
Niall Harrison
> 15 Oct 2002 22:19:34 GMT. I'm in alt.buffy.europe. Niall Harrison
> <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> is twanging, all Hoob-like, at me. I calmly
> say:
>>Also getting vaguely spoilery for this week's _Angel_ now.
Make that big ol' spoilers for 4x02.
Yep. :-)
> We need to know that Gwen can start somebody's heart. So we get her
> killing Gunn, then reviving him. This is so that, in turn, she can do
> the same later to Angel's heart and we don't get the audience going
> 'Huh? But all her powers can do is kill!'.
I recognise that it's partly intended as setup. Still don't like it, for
two reasons: One, that I'm not convinced it's needed; electricity jolting
hearts started is seen often enough in medical dramas and elsewhere that
I think it's safe to say that people can understand the concept.
Two, making the setup involve the apparent death of a regular character
and using it as the end-of-act-two break is cheap. The only redeeming
feature is what it told us about Gwen not wanting to kill an innocent
(with the flashback and all), but they could have done the same less
clumsily with a redshirt during her infiltration.
Niall Harrison
New situation (for which Buffy is raring to go) new limitations. And after
spending all last year clawing her way back to life, it's only natural for
the writers to want to take the shine off that just a little.
Niall
--
Just Another Victim Of The Ambient Morality.
Niall Harrison
>> Whereas *this* - this was good. Very good. Best episode of the season
>> good. Fit to be mentioned in the same breath as 'Earshot' good.
>
> Almost "Lie to me" good IMO.
Well, steady on. Let's not get carried away.... :)
> Similar themes, too.
I don't think they're all that similar, although there are points of
overlap. LTM was more about Good and Evil, and doing the Right Thing;
'Help' was more about how that's sometimes not enough.
Niall
--
Rockin' the suburbs.
pikelet
daniel...@hotmail.com (Dan Milburn) is twanging, all Hoob-like, at
me. I calmly say:
>On 15 Oct 2002 22:22:49 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
On 'Buffy'?
'If nothing we do matters... then all that matters is what we do.'
That's what.
Tim
Dan Milburn
wrote:
Once again: Buffy is the slayer. She can protect people from demons,
berobed teenage boys, and even stray crossbow boltts, but she can't
protect them from death by natural causes. How is any of this new?
> And after
>spending all last year clawing her way back to life, it's only natural for
>the writers to want to take the shine off that just a little.
Well of course. I'm just really not sure that this achieved that.
Dan
Dan Milburn
I've just rewatched the final scene a couple of times, and I can't see
that it even approaches trying to say that. It's more like, there'll
always be some people you can't help, but that's no reason not to try.
Which, y'know, fine sentiment, but hardly anything profound or new.
Dan
pikelet
I read it as Buffy & Co feeling a bit useless 'cos they'd invested so
much effort and emotion into saving Cassie, only to find that there
are some things you can't stop. Dawn comes out and basically says that
it's not the goal that matters, it's the fact that you tried. Saving
Cassie wasn't possible, as it turned out. But Buffy wasn't a failure
'cos she at least tried. The ends aren't the be-all-and-end-all, the
means matter too.
Tim.
Chris Ashby
Well, I don't quite regard "Lie to me" in the degree that you do.
> > Similar themes, too.
>
> I don't think they're all that similar, although there are points of
> overlap. LTM was more about Good and Evil, and doing the Right Thing;
> 'Help' was more about how that's sometimes not enough.
Someone (DarkMagic) pointed out on ATB, that all (most?) of the people that
Buffy spoke to as counseller had problems that mirrored Buffy's in the past,
and shows how Buffy has grown as a person since then.
pikelet
<Shuggie...@newsguy.com> is twanging, all Hoob-like, at me. I
calmly say:
>In article <3dae82d2$1...@primark.com>, "Chris says...
><SNIP>
>
>>Someone (DarkMagic) pointed out on ATB, that all (most?) of the people that
>>Buffy spoke to as counseller had problems that mirrored Buffy's in the past,
>>and shows how Buffy has grown as a person since then.
>>
>
>That explains a lot! So Buffy was sleeping with Spike to prove to herself she
>wasn't gay!
SPIKES LESBIAN SOUL ON BUFFY! RARR!
Ahem.
Shuggie
<SNIP>
>Someone (DarkMagic) pointed out on ATB, that all (most?) of the people that
>Buffy spoke to as counseller had problems that mirrored Buffy's in the past,
>and shows how Buffy has grown as a person since then.
>
That explains a lot! So Buffy was sleeping with Spike to prove to herself she
wasn't gay!
--
Shug
Dan Milburn
Yeah. It's just that it comes right after Buffys rather bizarre 'I
failed her' thing, so it seems like she's trying to comfort Buffy over
something that I don't believe Buffy would be feeling in the first
place.
>Saving
>Cassie wasn't possible, as it turned out. But Buffy wasn't a failure
>'cos she at least tried. The ends aren't the be-all-and-end-all, the
>means matter too.
I've been thinking about this, and I think what screws it up for me is
the 'destiny' angle. Buffy tried to help, even when Cassie told her
not to bother, because she didn't accept that there was nothing she
could do. As it turned out, there really wasn't. Why should she
believe herself to be a failure in this case?
Particularly, as I was arguing a few weeks ago, since Buffy is a girl
who has been face to face with the fact that, no matter how hard she
tries, no matter what she does, she will never be able to save
everyone who needs saving, every day of her life since she was 15.
She's come close to giving up before, but she's out there trying, just
as she always has. For her to be feeling guilty now, about one of the
few people she really couldn't have saved, would seem stupid.
So I don't see how this alters the way Buffy approaches her life, and
her work, in the slightest.
Dan
Chris Ashby
"Shuggie" <Shuggie...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:aom6b...@drn.newsguy.com...
Hehehe. maybe. That was the only one that didn't quite fit.
The biggest parallel was with Cassie herself. She was a girl who knew she
was destined to die, regardless of whether or not she wanted too, which is
the position Buffy has been in throughout the series, and specifically in
Prophecy Girl.
Mattia Valente
TARA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where's ODC when ya need him?
Mattia
--
''I hate camp. I don't enjoy dumb TV. I believe Aaron Spelling
has single-handedly lowered SAT scores.'' - Joss Whedon
Iain Clark
wrote:
>>>>The Smooch[tm].
>>>
A real "WTF" moment if ever there was one. Liked the CSI-style zoom
into Angel's chest, though.
>>> That, and the Gunn thing. Very cheap.
>>
>> Ah, right. Because nobody bought it.
>
>Because they were old-fashioned cliffhangers - purely there to generate
>suspense (or try). They had little to no meaning beyond the fact of being
>cliffhangers.
>
Well, there's nothing wrong with a bit of good old-fashioned dramatic
incident, now and then, you know <g> but in the case of Gunn the
reason was clearly to show that Gwen did have morals and did care
about the cost of a human life. It took her away from the
two-dimensional supervillain mould.
Plus it gave us an excellent scene later on with Gunn and Fred, and
reminded us that the characters' lives are very fragile.
>>>>I'm still sorta hoping our little catburglar does recurring, sorta.
>>>>'cause she's hot, and because there's enough setup to run with.
>>>
I thought she was interesting. Yes, there were superhero/Mutant X
overtones. But unlike Mutant X this character was portrayed with
decent style, acting, backstory, effects, motivation and, well,
competence. :-)
>>> She's got possibilities, but I think she's about the first potential
>>> recurring _Angel_ has introduced that I haven't been at least a little
>>> intrigued by. Even Linwood seemed interesting, way back in 'Quickening'.
>>> OK, so he went downhill fast, but still.
>>
>> See, now, I never liked Linwood. He just seemed...annoying. All talk, no
>> threat.
>
Linwood was quirky and likeable at first, but he was quickly written
into a corner with the "fear of Angel" bit. He was too ineffectual to
be menacing.
Iain
--
"Caught a bolt of lightning
Cursed the day he let it go"
Jonathan Dupont
> Why is the _Buffy_ wildfeed distribution system so much more efficient
> than the _Angel_ one? It's not fair, I tell you.
Hmm... Apart from the whole Buffy being more popular thing, I for one
find it a tiny bit more addictive than Angel. There's more of an urge
to see the episode quickly. (Or there was; it's fading now, for some
(probably Firefly related reason.) Didn't seem to have any correlation
with quality of the show itself.
> When did Rebecca Rand Kirshner become good?
>
> Seriously. 'Out Of My Mind' was poor. 'Tough Love' had some cool stuff,
> but was uneven. 'Tabula Rasa'...well, it was a decent comedy episode, but
> that's about it. And the less said about 'Hell's Bells' the better.
You didn't like Tabula Rasa? I thought that was the episode that even
S6 haters thought was not that bad. I didn't think this was that good,
but an awful lot better than Hell's Bells.
> Whereas *this* - this was good. Very good. Best episode of the season
> good. Fit to be mentioned in the same breath as 'Earshot' good.
I wouldn't go anywhere near that far. OTOH I'm not with the people in
alt.tv.buffy who seem to be giving it on average about 1/5. One thing
I loved about was it that it, finally, had the right feel to it. I
think the big (and reasonably good) guest cast helped.
> Spike's insanity is getting a little wearing, and as a character he's
> pretty much just a convenient plot device.
I was just wondering when the obligatory Spike scene would appear when
it did - I thought it was redeemed slightly by him appearing logically
at the end.
> The last scooby scene was just
> a *touch* too melodramatic (I think it was Dawn in tears that tipped the
> balance), since as much as I like Cassie I didn't really buy that they
> were quite that attached to her. And a couple of times, Buffy came off as
> *just* the wrong side of strident.
I'm going to have to agree with the tears thing. I don't think MT's
acting was quite up to it either.
> When I cast my five-star votes, I tend to mostly work in increments of
> 0.25. 'Excellent' episodes can end up with 4.5 or 4.75, depending on just
> how excellent I think they are. To get the 4.75, an episode has to have
> that extra something, whatever it is. I can respect 4.5s; I love 4.75s.
> There wasn't a single episode in S6 that got a 4.75; in fact, I think for
> _Buffy_ the most recent episode I'd give that mark would be 'Blood Ties'.
>
> I say all of the above so that when I say I'm giving 'Help' a 4.75, you
> understand what I mean by it.
>
> Niall
Seeing as everyone else was doing it, I'd probably say a 3.75 to 4.
See how it looks after a second viewing.
Jon
(Being spoiler free is starting to pay off a lot - I saw the preview
for next week and was very, very intrigued. If they do it properly it
could be very good).
Iain Clark
Why must it be a new point to be a good point? It put a slant on it
we'd never seen before, it made a point, it was well-written and
entertaining.
Dan Milburn
>>>New situation (for which Buffy is raring to go) new limitations.
>>
>>Once again: Buffy is the slayer. She can protect people from demons,
>>berobed teenage boys, and even stray crossbow boltts, but she can't
>>protect them from death by natural causes. How is any of this new?
>>
> Why must it be a new point to be a good point?
Well, it mustn't, obviously. Niall was claiming it *was* a new point, and
I'm still left trying to figure what was even remotely new about it.
But the reason why I think it suffers from not being a new point is that
we've seen the characters in similar situations before, and thus their
reactions at the end felt unconvincing. As I've already said, what
*possible* grounds could Buffy have for believing that she failed Cassie,
except to give Dawn the chance to spout off about her not having failed,
cos at least she tried? Wouldn't this point, in fact, have been better
made if it *had* been possible to save Cassie, and Buffy had legitimate
reason to feel guilty for not being able to?
> It put a slant on it
> we'd never seen before, it made a point, it was well-written and
> entertaining.
What, even the poetry? ;) I just didn't find it particularly well-written
or entertaining, in fact rather dull, especially compared to the opening
three episodes which I think have probably made this the best beginning to
a season Buffy's had.
Dan
Mattia Valente
> we've seen the characters in similar situations before, and thus their
> reactions at the end felt unconvincing. As I've already said, what
> *possible* grounds could Buffy have for believing that she failed Cassie,
> except to give Dawn the chance to spout off about her not having failed,
> cos at least she tried?
Because she's human. It doesn't MATTER that she doesn't have anything to
hold against herself, that she couldn't have done anything. The guilty
feeling may not have any basis whatsoever in logical reality, but it
contains emotional truth, and that's what matters, at the end of the day.
> Wouldn't this point, in fact, have been better
> made if it *had* been possible to save Cassie, and Buffy had legitimate
> reason to feel guilty for not being able to?
Not. Then it would've been about guilt, and possibly heavy handed, and
quite moralistic. A tale of her responsibilities and failing them, or
that sometimes that sort of things happens when you don't do all you can.
>>It put a slant on it
>>we'd never seen before, it made a point, it was well-written and
>>entertaining.
>
> What, even the poetry? ;)
Even the poetry.
> I just didn't find it particularly well-written
> or entertaining, in fact rather dull, especially compared to the opening
> three episodes which I think have probably made this the best beginning to
> a season Buffy's had.
And here's me, thinking this was the best of the bunch so far.
Mattia
--
"Tim Mewling Fucking Sodding Balls Minear" - Tim signing off in
umta
Dan Milburn
An emotional truth which she's had to confront before, and thus might be
expected to deal with better. Hence my complaint. To be honest, if this
episode had been done in S1 or early S2, I think I would've liked it a
whole lot more.
> > Wouldn't this point, in fact, have been better
>> made if it *had* been possible to save Cassie, and Buffy had legitimate
>> reason to feel guilty for not being able to?
>
> Not. Then it would've been about guilt, and possibly heavy handed, and
> quite moralistic.
Surely that would entirely depend on how they chose to play it? All I'm
saying is that if Buffy really did have grounds to feel she failed, as
opposed to feeling it irrationally, then the notion that she didn't fail
would have more impact. For me, at least.
> A tale of her responsibilities and failing them, or that sometimes that
> sort of things happens when you don't do all you can.
Or when you do do all you can, but that just isn't enough. Which is
different from there being nothing you could have done. It would have
been a lot harder to make the story work that way, but I think it would
have been stronger if they had.
> > I just didn't find it particularly well-written
>> or entertaining, in fact rather dull, especially compared to the
>> opening three episodes which I think have probably made this the best
>> beginning to a season Buffy's had.
>
> And here's me, thinking this was the best of the bunch so far.
Well, it'd be boring if we all agreed, wouldn't it. :)
Dan
Mattia Valente
>>hold against herself, that she couldn't have done anything. The guilty
>>feeling may not have any basis whatsoever in logical reality, but it
>>contains emotional truth, and that's what matters, at the end of the
>>day.
>
> An emotional truth which she's had to confront before, and thus might be
> expected to deal with better. Hence my complaint. To be honest, if this
> episode had been done in S1 or early S2, I think I would've liked it a
> whole lot more.
She hasn't had to face this one all that often, quite frankly, and you
really expect it to get easier? She's just found her feet again, she's
got a new job that, on some level, gives her life more meaning again,
although because of the fact it clearly means something to her it scares
her, soo...
Buffy cares. Perhaps a bit too much, compared to a certain dark brooding
character who's all to eager not to worry about things that he didn't
directly cause, like, but that's what makes her her. To me, anyway. It
keeps things human.
It was also, I'd say, the first case the gang solved as a group,
including Willow, and including Dawn, in a long, long time. The first
case involving someone without the group. It probably felt like a
renewed start, on some level, but it didn't pan out as planned.
>>Not. Then it would've been about guilt, and possibly heavy handed, and
>>quite moralistic.
>
> Surely that would entirely depend on how they chose to play it? All I'm
> saying is that if Buffy really did have grounds to feel she failed, as
> opposed to feeling it irrationally, then the notion that she didn't fail
> would have more impact. For me, at least.
Well, okay. I'm just seeing it from a different angle, clearly.
>>A tale of her responsibilities and failing them, or that sometimes that
>>sort of things happens when you don't do all you can.
>
> Or when you do do all you can, but that just isn't enough. Which is
> different from there being nothing you could have done. It would have
> been a lot harder to make the story work that way, but I think it would
> have been stronger if they had.
Possibly, but in a sense that's what they did do. They did all they
could, and it wasn't enough. Because they didn't know everything. And
because, apparently, some fates aren't quite as avoidable as others.
>>And here's me, thinking this was the best of the bunch so far.
>
> Well, it'd be boring if we all agreed, wouldn't it. :)
:-D
BTW, where were you on Monday? I had a short look around, but you
weren't to be seen, so you missed out on meeting The Tags.
Mattia
--
"NUDITY, NUDITY, NUDITY." - Joss Whedon on S5
Dan Milburn
> BTW, where were you on Monday? I had a short look around, but you
> weren't to be seen, so you missed out on meeting The Tags.
Shame. I was in bed (well, more accurately, asleep on the floor) until
very shortly before noon, as we stayed in the bar for quite a while after
the disco had finished.
Dan
Saskia
Harrison sings:
> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
> And check this out:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/newcassie/
Here's some more on that:
http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-tv.html?2002-10/22/12.00.tv
--
Saskia
"Behold, the weirdness!"
Saskia
And here are Rebecca, Jane and Drew chatting about it:
http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~hsiao/media/tv/buffy/bronze/20021014.html
For those who enjoy reading it all (I do :) )
--
Saskia
"Please, I was you... with better shoes."