Angel 3.17 "Forgiving" (SPOILERS)
Saskia
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I really need to sleep but I just had to say Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhh!!!!!
This was goooood. Yummm! Scaaaary Sahjan! Scary Angel! Scary kid! I'm even
starting to like Justine ;) And you know I really thought Wes was dead? What
a shocker.
Go one people, watch fast and join me! I'm going to bed now.
--
Saskia
Saskia
On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Saskia wrote:
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> This was goooood. Yummm! Scaaaary Sahjan! Scary Angel! Scary kid! I'm even
> starting to like Justine ;) And you know I really thought Wes was dead? What
> a shocker.
Ok slept now. I'm going to watch it again tonight, a bit more relaxed.
Last night I was glued to my pc monitor in a cold and dark room because I
was actually on my way to bed but something drew me to the computer to
check on my download and it was just ending so I figured I'd watch the
first five minutes :)
So this was very interesting. Angel completely lost it. Did I really hear
a tear in his voice there for a moment, when he was talking to Gunn and
Fred in the hotel? Oh wow about the way he went after Wes! So you were
right, Niall, he does have it in him. Shocking! Really shocking... and
scary.
And Sahjan... who would've thought. He altered the prophecy going back and
forth in time. Prophecies can be changed?? It's still a bit of a blurr,
what was it that he said? The one sired by the vampire with a soul will
kill Sahjan? Something like that? So that's not Connor then, or is it? I'm
confused.
That white room was neat. What *was* that! The counterpart of TPTB?
The true rulers of W&H? Very interesting. That little girl was truly
scary. Loved how Angel and Lilah joined forces for a little while there
and how Angel would have killed her in an instant.
So Connor is in that demon dimension, what's it called, with Holtz. Will
Holtz survive it? Connor will, I'm sure. Maybe he'll come back to kill
Sahjan after all. Is this demon dimension connected or controlled by the
powers in the White Room? Do they then also control Pylea? Is that why we
saw those wolf and ram books there? Do we get to visit this hellish
dimension?
Oh and pooooooooor Wesley. I really thought he was dead at first. I
couldn't believe it but he looked so dead.... I guess the guy who stole
his wallet must've called an ambulance after all.
Still no Cordy :( I'm assuming she'll be back next week to thwap Angel.
I love this show. Is it next week already?
--
Saskia
Mattia Valente
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> I really need to sleep but I just had to say Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhh!!!!!
Bloody HELL.
Jeff Bell delivered. Big time. S3 is on a veritable roll, and this,
this...is a true high point. It's not as many layered as 'Loyalty' was,
at least not at first glance (I may be way, way wrong) but hot DAMN this
is great setup for the last few episodes. Brilliant.
> This was goooood. Yummm! Scaaaary Sahjan! Scary Angel! Scary kid! I'm even
> starting to like Justine ;) And you know I really thought Wes was dead? What
> a shocker.
I was seriously pissed off. I spent the whole episode (well, all the
bits I wasn't glued to the screen) going 'dammit! FIND WES YOU
BASTARDS!!'.
> Go one people, watch fast and join me! I'm going to bed now.
We coulda if you'd warned us it was, like, avaliable.
Mattia
--
"My beagle went swimming today and now he's typing on my keyboard with
his ample nose. Oh, and he's the bestest handsomeest beagle EVER."
--Tim Minear, Salon.com, May 2001
Saskia
> Saskia wrote:
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> > I really need to sleep but I just had to say Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhh!!!!!
>
> Bloody HELL.
I *know*!
> Jeff Bell delivered. Big time. S3 is on a veritable roll, and this,
> this...is a true high point. It's not as many layered as 'Loyalty' was,
> at least not at first glance (I may be way, way wrong) but hot DAMN this
> is great setup for the last few episodes. Brilliant.
Yes!!
> I was seriously pissed off. I spent the whole episode (well, all the
> bits I wasn't glued to the screen) going 'dammit! FIND WES YOU
> BASTARDS!!'.
Me too!!! Argh, the frustration!
> > Go one people, watch fast and join me! I'm going to bed now.
>
> We coulda if you'd warned us it was, like, avaliable.
I did. Twice. People weren't paying attention...
--
Saskia
Mattia Valente
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> On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Saskia wrote:
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> > This was goooood. Yummm! Scaaaary Sahjan! Scary Angel! Scary kid! I'm even
> > starting to like Justine ;) And you know I really thought Wes was dead? What
> > a shocker.
>
> Ok slept now. I'm going to watch it again tonight, a bit more relaxed.
Hmmmm....relaxed? This?
> Last night I was glued to my pc monitor in a cold and dark room because I
> was actually on my way to bed but something drew me to the computer to
> check on my download and it was just ending so I figured I'd watch the
> first five minutes :)
You fool....gotta say, though, it starts out strong, and gets stronger,
and throughout, well, I quite love it. W&H, Lilah, Linwood, Sahjan,
Angel, Wes, Justine, major anger stuff....brill.
> So this was very interesting. Angel completely lost it. Did I really hear
> a tear in his voice there for a moment, when he was talking to Gunn and
> Fred in the hotel? Oh wow about the way he went after Wes! So you were
> right, Niall, he does have it in him. Shocking! Really shocking... and
> scary.
Eh? What did Niall say, then? I missed something, obviously, but that
still truly shocked me. Really, truly shocked me. Of course, I was a bit
dissapointed that it seemed to be all good and happy, but, well....HA!
As IF! Like hell it is!
> And Sahjan... who would've thought. He altered the prophecy going back and
> forth in time. Prophecies can be changed?? It's still a bit of a blurr,
> what was it that he said?
Yes. He's a time traveller, you see. So he flitted around to the times
the prophecies were being written. Changed a word here and there.
Altered the prophecies, made them so that his own enemies would help him
defeat his fate. Apparently. I need to go rewatch 'Loyalty' to have a
looksee at the McOracle and what that was all about, though. And I'm
still intruiged by Sahjan, what he is, what he's set out to do, why the
heck he matters, exactly.
> The one sired by the vampire with a soul will
> kill Sahjan? Something like that? So that's not Connor then, or is it? I'm
> confused.
Yeah. Mebbe Dru will show up and kill him. Ahum.
> That white room was neat.
The White room was bloody *brilliant*. Elevator music and elevator rides
= damned cool stuff. On 'Angel' they do, anyway.
> What *was* that! The counterpart of TPTB?
Not sure.
> The true rulers of W&H?
Some sort of senior partner, driving force, in some way? Perhaps. I'm
not sure.
> Very interesting. That little girl was truly scary.
Very, very well cast, great performance. And I do not, ever, ever, ever,
ever want to see this episode cropped to 4:3. EVER. God, but those
scenes were stunning.
> Loved how Angel and Lilah joined forces for a little while there
> and how Angel would have killed her in an instant.
Angel's snapped. More so than he ever did in S2, in a sense, because
he's even more one-track minded, and ever more duplicitous, willing to
do anything and everything to get what he wants done done.
> So Connor is in that demon dimension, what's it called, with Holtz. Will
> Holtz survive it? Connor will, I'm sure.
Pah. Maybe, maybe not. I don't mind if Connor bites the bullet, quite
frankly. Holtz, OTOH, I want to see again.
> Maybe he'll come back to kill
> Sahjan after all. Is this demon dimension connected or controlled by the
> powers in the White Room?
Eh? Why d'you think that? The powers in the White Room have knowledge,
have powers, seem to be, in a sense, as you said, the 'opposition'. But
then, Wolf Ram and Hart have been around forever, controlling things for
millenia, being because of human Evil. It's intruiging, to say the
least. Want more!
> Do they then also control Pylea?
'Control' in what sense? Pylea isn't evil, as such. Not more so than
'our' dimension is.
> Is that why we saw those wolf and ram books there?
We've seen them this season as well. In our world. I'm hoping it wasn't
a screwup by the props department.
> Do we get to visit this hellish dimension?
Mebbe. I wasn't terribly impressed with the last dimension we visited,
though, so....
> Oh and pooooooooor Wesley. I really thought he was dead at first. I
> couldn't believe it but he looked so dead.... I guess the guy who stole
> his wallet must've called an ambulance after all.
Maybe.
> Still no Cordy :( I'm assuming she'll be back next week to thwap Angel.
*thwap* Angel? That strikes me as exceedingly unlikely. But, well, quite
frankly, I'm still hardly noticing her absence. Without her, we do have
a bit of a darker vibe, no snappy Cordyesque humor to liven the
unlivenable situation. And, well, I actually like it. But I do want
Cordy back.
> I love this show. Is it next week already?
I'm so, so glad to read this. Early S3, you had me worried, quite
frankly. But I gotta agree, from 'Lullaby' on, all the odd numbered
episodes, S3 really, really found it's groove. I just hope Greenwalt can
deliver a good finale, and that we'll get more of the same kickassedness
along the way.
Mattia Valente
>
> Mattia Valente said:
> > Saskia wrote:
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> > > I really need to sleep but I just had to say Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhh!!!!!
> >
> > Bloody HELL.
>
> I *know*!
:o)
> > Jeff Bell delivered. Big time. S3 is on a veritable roll, and this,
> > this...is a true high point. It's not as many layered as 'Loyalty' was,
> > at least not at first glance (I may be way, way wrong) but hot DAMN this
> > is great setup for the last few episodes. Brilliant.
>
> Yes!!
I trust your faith is S3 is no longer waxing and waning, then? I'm
trying to figure out which season I think is better, now. S2 has it's
own vibe, it's own chocolatey cookie goodness, but this....this has the
potential to be even more.
> > I was seriously pissed off. I spent the whole episode (well, all the
> > bits I wasn't glued to the screen) going 'dammit! FIND WES YOU
> > BASTARDS!!'.
>
> Me too!!! Argh, the frustration!
I'm not sure what I would've thought if they had killed Wes. They can't
kill Wes. Wes is the coolest and bestest of the lot. Wes ROCKS. And he
was all decieved. Poor Wes.
> > > Go one people, watch fast and join me! I'm going to bed now.
> >
> > We coulda if you'd warned us it was, like, avaliable.
>
> I did. Twice. People weren't paying attention...
Oh. Well, I wasn't there, so at least I've got an excuse. I think.
Niall Harrison
> Saskia wrote:
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>> On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Saskia wrote:
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>> So this was very interesting. Angel completely lost it. Did I really hear
>> a tear in his voice there for a moment, when he was talking to Gunn and
>> Fred in the hotel? Oh wow about the way he went after Wes! So you were
>> right, Niall, he does have it in him. Shocking! Really shocking... and
>> scary.
>
> Eh? What did Niall say, then? I missed something, obviously,
I said that I could see Angel forgiving Wes, or trying to kill him. Which
I meant, although I did have the slightly unfair advantage that I'd seen a
picture from that last scene before the ep. Still, when the ep started the
way it did I wondered if it was going to turn out to be a false lead the
way Fred-the-ballerina was.
>> And Sahjan... who would've thought. He altered the prophecy going back and
>> forth in time. Prophecies can be changed?? It's still a bit of a blurr,
>> what was it that he said?
>
> Yes. He's a time traveller, you see. So he flitted around to the times
> the prophecies were being written.
But in a manly way.
Love that he was still concerned about his masculinity. :-)
> Changed a word here and there.
> Altered the prophecies, made them so that his own enemies would help him
> defeat his fate.
Yep. Tim was right. Clever boy. And it means that the Ram book in
'Couplet' was a plany, after all.
Here's how I see it: Sahjan goes to see Holtz in 'Loyalty', realises Holtz
isn't working for him. Comes up with a new plan - change the prophecies,
feed Angel Connor's blood. Recruits Lilah for help. But because it
involves time travel, we see the plan go into effect before he's initiated
it.
> Apparently. I need to go rewatch 'Loyalty' to have a
> looksee at the McOracle and what that was all about, though.
Devour = "to consume hungrily"
>> The one sired by the vampire with a soul will
>> kill Sahjan? Something like that? So that's not Connor then, or is it? I'm
>> confused.
>
> Yeah. Mebbe Dru will show up and kill him. Ahum.
Nah. It was 'the one sired by the vampire with a soul will grow to manhood
and kill Sahjan'.
>> That white room was neat.
>
> The White room was bloody *brilliant*. Elevator music and elevator rides
> = damned cool stuff. On 'Angel' they do, anyway.
I nearly died when I heard it was the same music.
Rob Kral was going great guns this ep, what with making use of the
Holtz-killing-Sarah theme from 'Lullaby' and all...
>> What *was* that! The counterpart of TPTB?
>
> Not sure.
Reminded me very much of the D&D system of good and evil, in that she
appeared to be a representative of Lawful Evil.
>> Very interesting. That little girl was truly scary.
>
> Very, very well cast, great performance. And I do not, ever, ever, ever,
> ever want to see this episode cropped to 4:3. EVER. God, but those
> scenes were stunning.
Now I know how to torture you. :-)
>> Loved how Angel and Lilah joined forces for a little while there
>> and how Angel would have killed her in an instant.
>
> Angel's snapped. More so than he ever did in S2, in a sense, because
> he's even more one-track minded, and ever more duplicitous, willing to
> do anything and everything to get what he wants done done.
Is anybody else having TVT flashbacks?
Seriously.
Then, W&H blackmailed Angel to do their bidding. Here, Angel blackmailed
W&H to do his bidding. Both cases, to save somebody important to them.
Both cases involved dimensional travel. Both cases are going to have
consequences...
If the way Angel handled things in 'Billy' turns out to be setup after
all, I am going to be *so* happy.
>> I love this show. Is it next week already?
>
> I'm so, so glad to read this. Early S3, you had me worried, quite
> frankly. But I gotta agree, from 'Lullaby' on, all the odd numbered
> episodes, S3 really, really found it's groove.
It's now got the best arc.
It's close - 'Lullaby', 'Loyalty', 'Sleep Tight' and 'Forgiving' vs
'Darla', 'Reunion', 'Reprise' and 'Epiphany'. But S3 edges it.
> I just hope Greenwalt can
> deliver a good finale, and that we'll get more of the same kickassedness
> along the way.
I'm expecting next week to be something of a pallette-cleanser; not light,
but not as dark as the past three. And then darky-dark dark for the four
episodes leading up to the finale.
I'm really hoping 'The Price' is going to be dark. I wanna see what David
Fury can do, given the chance (remember, he wrote 'Helpless' and
'Corrupt'...)
Niall
--
The shameless fits of love
That only smother you for moments
'till I fold them up and leave
All yours.
Niall Harrison
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>> I really need to sleep but I just had to say Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhh!!!!!
>
> Bloody HELL.
>
> Jeff Bell delivered. Big time.
I think it's fair to say he's earnt his wings, eh?
> S3 is on a veritable roll, and this,
> this...is a true high point. It's not as many layered as 'Loyalty' was,
> at least not at first glance (I may be way, way wrong)
Not as layered, no. But still some goodness, what with the comparing and
contrasting between everyone's dealing with the fallout. I really like
that they played up the Justine angle.
Plus, possibly TVT parallels. Fingers crossed that I'm not making that up.
But god, it was great. Pretty much the best possible followup to ST they
could have done, as far as I'm concerned.
Niall
--
I am a fraction - a part of a broken man.
Mattia Valente
>
> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
> > Saskia wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Saskia wrote:
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I actually found the message in question. Looked more like a jokey fun
thing.
> I said that I could see Angel forgiving Wes, or trying to kill him. Which
> I meant, although I did have the slightly unfair advantage that I'd seen a
> picture from that last scene before the ep. Still, when the ep started the
> way it did I wondered if it was going to turn out to be a false lead the
> way Fred-the-ballerina was.
'Fred-the-ballerina'? Damned spoilers, I tell you! I went into this ep
completely unspoiled, not even a promo. Very, very glad I did. And yes,
Wes, Angel, oh dear.
> >> And Sahjan... who would've thought. He altered the prophecy going back and
> >> forth in time. Prophecies can be changed?? It's still a bit of a blurr,
> >> what was it that he said?
> >
> > Yes. He's a time traveller, you see. So he flitted around to the times
> > the prophecies were being written.
>
> But in a manly way.
Yeah. Reminded me of Andy Hallet, that.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~mvalente/nocturnal/manly_way.jpg (big, like 500K.
Signed photo from Nocturnal.)
> Love that he was still concerned about his masculinity. :-)
:o)
> > Changed a word here and there.
> > Altered the prophecies, made them so that his own enemies would help him
> > defeat his fate.
>
> Yep. Tim was right. Clever boy. And it means that the Ram book in
> 'Couplet' was a plany, after all.
Plant, you mean? And, uh, how does this mean that the book in 'Couplet'
was actually a plant, pray tell? My brain's a bit knackered, to be
honest. Oh, wait, you're gonna explain.
> Here's how I see it: Sahjan goes to see Holtz in 'Loyalty', realises Holtz
> isn't working for him. Comes up with a new plan - change the prophecies,
> feed Angel Connor's blood. Recruits Lilah for help. But because it
> involves time travel, we see the plan go into effect before he's initiated
> it.
Ooer....still doesn't explain the Ram book.
> > Apparently. I need to go rewatch 'Loyalty' to have a
> > looksee at the McOracle and what that was all about, though.
>
> Devour = "to consume hungrily"
I'm gonna need more than a definition of 'devour'.
> > Yeah. Mebbe Dru will show up and kill him. Ahum.
>
> Nah. It was 'the one sired by the vampire with a soul will grow to manhood
> and kill Sahjan'.
Spike, then? He's still a boy, I tell ye!
> >> That white room was neat.
> >
> > The White room was bloody *brilliant*. Elevator music and elevator rides
> > = damned cool stuff. On 'Angel' they do, anyway.
>
> I nearly died when I heard it was the same music.
I was so grinning my head off.
> Rob Kral was going great guns this ep, what with making use of the
> Holtz-killing-Sarah theme from 'Lullaby' and all...
'twas quite scrumptios. It was all setup, really, but in a tasty,
important feeling, goodness way.
> >> What *was* that! The counterpart of TPTB?
> >
> > Not sure.
>
> Reminded me very much of the D&D system of good and evil, in that she
> appeared to be a representative of Lawful Evil.
Erm, since it is a *law*firm.....and, uh, D&D? You're dating yourself..
> >> Very interesting. That little girl was truly scary.
> >
> > Very, very well cast, great performance. And I do not, ever, ever, ever,
> > ever want to see this episode cropped to 4:3. EVER. God, but those
> > scenes were stunning.
>
> Now I know how to torture you. :-)
AAAARGHH!!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You BASTARD.
> >> Loved how Angel and Lilah joined forces for a little while there
> >> and how Angel would have killed her in an instant.
> >
> > Angel's snapped. More so than he ever did in S2, in a sense, because
> > he's even more one-track minded, and ever more duplicitous, willing to
> > do anything and everything to get what he wants done done.
>
> Is anybody else having TVT flashbacks?
A bit.
> Seriously.
Sorta kinda. Obsessive Angel. Only much, much worse. Foreshadowing much?
I sense that this may be a problem for Debs. But, uh, Saskia's sold on
the season, so maybe there's still hope. She wansn't loving it early on.
> Then, W&H blackmailed Angel to do their bidding. Here, Angel blackmailed
> W&H to do his bidding. Both cases, to save somebody important to them.
> Both cases involved dimensional travel. Both cases are going to have
> consequences...
Both cases were written by Jeff Bell. Both involved very, very memorable
'demonic'/godlt-representative presences, one wreathed in Black, in
darkness and Flame, in the shape of a monster, a demon, ironically a
force of good, in the other, a child, the face of innocence, in a well
lit bright white room, agent of evil. There are a lot of mirrored
metaphors here...tasty! Thanks for pointing this out. Now I'm gonna have
to think s'more.
> If the way Angel handled things in 'Billy' turns out to be setup after
> all, I am going to be *so* happy.
Be more specific. You mean that he's 'different', or his 'take charge'
deal? Or what?
> >> I love this show. Is it next week already?
> >
> > I'm so, so glad to read this. Early S3, you had me worried, quite
> > frankly. But I gotta agree, from 'Lullaby' on, all the odd numbered
> > episodes, S3 really, really found it's groove.
>
> It's now got the best arc.
Looking a lot like that. It does depend on the resolution, though. Which
I trust will be good.
> It's close - 'Lullaby', 'Loyalty', 'Sleep Tight' and 'Forgiving' vs
> 'Darla', 'Reunion', 'Reprise' and 'Epiphany'. But S3 edges it.
For now. Add some tasty Joss Whedon stuff, some thrilling Cordy
character work/construct stuff, and, well, yay!
> > I just hope Greenwalt can
> > deliver a good finale, and that we'll get more of the same kickassedness
> > along the way.
>
> I'm expecting next week to be something of a pallette-cleanser; not light,
> but not as dark as the past three. And then darky-dark dark for the four
> episodes leading up to the finale.
That's 'palate'. Unless I'm the one that's confused, anyway. And, well,
I'm not sure how lighty-light it can be, unless we go look at Cordy and
Groo's sexfest in Mexico for an episode, or something. But, well, we
shall see.
> I'm really hoping 'The Price' is going to be dark. I wanna see what David
> Fury can do, given the chance (remember, he wrote 'Helpless' and
> 'Corrupt'...)
'Corrupt'? Eh? What?
And yes, Fury is at his best when he's doing dark stuff, character
stuff, and not blowing shit up. And he can do funny, too. I'm looking
forward to this. And I'm just wishing 'Buffy' would hurry the heck up
and air. And that monday would roll around again soon, like.
Mattia Valente
>
> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
> > Saskia wrote:
> >>
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPACE
> >>
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPACE
> >>
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPACE
> >>
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPACE
> >>
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPACE
> >>
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPACE
> >>
> >> SPOILER
> >> SPACE
> >>
> >> I really need to sleep but I just had to say Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhh!!!!!
> >
> > Bloody HELL.
> >
> > Jeff Bell delivered. Big time.
>
> I think it's fair to say he's earnt his wings, eh?
Yep. A lobster-with-a-growth lapel pin for Jeff! Woo!
> > S3 is on a veritable roll, and this,
> > this...is a true high point. It's not as many layered as 'Loyalty' was,
> > at least not at first glance (I may be way, way wrong)
>
> Not as layered, no. But still some goodness, what with the comparing and
> contrasting between everyone's dealing with the fallout. I really like
> that they played up the Justine angle.
I'm still a bit confused over Justine. At the end of the day, this is
what 'Offspring' and 'Quickeining' should've been: it felt important,
the themes were spot on, the depth was there, and it was a big setup-y
happenin' fest.
> Plus, possibly TVT parallels. Fingers crossed that I'm not making that up.
Don't think so. Expanded elsewhere.
> But god, it was great. Pretty much the best possible followup to ST they
> could have done, as far as I'm concerned.
Agreed. And the filming...beautiful. I really never want to see this in
4:3, with all the sweeping shots, the framing, the closups....droool...
Niall Harrison
> Niall Harrison wrote:
>>
>> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
>> > Saskia wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Saskia wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > SPOILER
>> >> > SPACE
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > SPOILER
>> >> > SPACE
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > SPOILER
>> >> > SPACE
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > SPOILER
>> >> > SPACE
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > SPOILER
>> >> > SPACE
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > SPOILER
>> >> > SPACE
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > SPOILER
>> >> > SPACE
>
>> I meant, although I did have the slightly unfair advantage that I'd seen a
>> picture from that last scene before the ep. Still, when the ep started the
>> way it did I wondered if it was going to turn out to be a false lead the
>> way Fred-the-ballerina was.
>
> 'Fred-the-ballerina'? Damned spoilers, I tell you!
I didn't see the Fred-the-ballerina picture before WITW, only afterwards.
Christy posted the link on umta somewhere, if you haven't seen it.
>> Love that he was still concerned about his masculinity. :-)
>
> :o)
Another little thing that was Just Great: Fred's fear of portals.
>> > Changed a word here and there.
>> > Altered the prophecies, made them so that his own enemies would help him
>> > defeat his fate.
>>
>> Yep. Tim was right. Clever boy. And it means that the Ram book in
>> 'Couplet' was a plany, after all.
>
> Plant, you mean?
Uh, yeah.
> And, uh, how does this mean that the book in 'Couplet'
> was actually a plant, pray tell? My brain's a bit knackered, to be
> honest. Oh, wait, you're gonna explain.
Not a plant within the show, but a deliberate hint to the viewers - W&H is
involved, This Is Not Good.
>> > Apparently. I need to go rewatch 'Loyalty' to have a
>> > looksee at the McOracle and what that was all about, though.
>>
>> Devour = "to consume hungrily"
>
> I'm gonna need more than a definition of 'devour'.
Why? That's what Angel did. He consumed Connor's blood. Which, by MEverse
logic, *is* Connor.
>> > Yeah. Mebbe Dru will show up and kill him. Ahum.
>>
>> Nah. It was 'the one sired by the vampire with a soul will grow to manhood
>> and kill Sahjan'.
>
> Spike, then? He's still a boy, I tell ye!
Feh. _Buffy_ can keep him now. :-P
>> >> That white room was neat.
>> >
>> > The White room was bloody *brilliant*. Elevator music and elevator rides
>> > = damned cool stuff. On 'Angel' they do, anyway.
>>
>> I nearly died when I heard it was the same music.
>
> I was so grinning my head off.
Made me a happy man.
>> Rob Kral was going great guns this ep, what with making use of the
>> Holtz-killing-Sarah theme from 'Lullaby' and all...
>
> 'twas quite scrumptios. It was all setup, really, but in a tasty,
> important feeling, goodness way.
This ep? I thought there was quite a bit of resolution. Justine and the
rest of Holz' gang is resolved (ish); Sahjan is gone; we know why Sahjan
didn't do the portal trick before; Angel followed through on his promise
to Connor's godfather...
>> >> What *was* that! The counterpart of TPTB?
>> >
>> > Not sure.
>>
>> Reminded me very much of the D&D system of good and evil, in that she
>> appeared to be a representative of Lawful Evil.
>
> Erm, since it is a *law*firm..
Well, true. But it's another mark in the 'cosmic balance theory' column, I
think.
>...and, uh, D&D? You're dating yourself..
Well, it's not as if anybody else would date me.
Ba-dum-*tsch*
>> Is anybody else having TVT flashbacks?
>
> A bit.
>
>> Seriously.
>
> Sorta kinda. Obsessive Angel. Only much, much worse. Foreshadowing much?
Looks like. Did you see Shanna's 'fun with forshadowing' post on ata?
Worth a read.
> I sense that this may be a problem for Debs.
I'm shocked.
>> Then, W&H blackmailed Angel to do their bidding. Here, Angel blackmailed
>> W&H to do his bidding. Both cases, to save somebody important to them.
>> Both cases involved dimensional travel. Both cases are going to have
>> consequences...
>
> Both cases were written by Jeff Bell. Both involved very, very memorable
> 'demonic'/godlt-representative presences, one wreathed in Black, in
> darkness and Flame, in the shape of a monster, a demon, ironically a
> force of good, in the other, a child, the face of innocence, in a well
> lit bright white room, agent of evil. There are a lot of mirrored
> metaphors here...tasty!
What else did we come up with on IRC?
Angel releases an evil in TVT and contains one in 'Forgiving' (although I
think he probably also released one).
There was something about the kid in the White Room being an inversion of
something, other than what you've put above, but I can't remember. Dang.
>> If the way Angel handled things in 'Billy' turns out to be setup after
>> all, I am going to be *so* happy.
>
> Be more specific. You mean that he's 'different', or his 'take charge'
> deal? Or what?
The thing about it not being his responsibility. I'm wondering whether
whatever what's about to happen is going to teach him a lesson about
consequences. We shall see.
>> >> I love this show. Is it next week already?
>> >
>> > I'm so, so glad to read this. Early S3, you had me worried, quite
>> > frankly. But I gotta agree, from 'Lullaby' on, all the odd numbered
>> > episodes, S3 really, really found it's groove.
>>
>> It's now got the best arc.
>
> Looking a lot like that. It does depend on the resolution, though. Which
> I trust will be good.
Well, seeing as how the S2 arc ended with 'Epiphany', I think this one's
better already.
>> > I just hope Greenwalt can
>> > deliver a good finale, and that we'll get more of the same kickassedness
>> > along the way.
>>
>> I'm expecting next week to be something of a pallette-cleanser; not light,
>> but not as dark as the past three. And then darky-dark dark for the four
>> episodes leading up to the finale.
>
> That's 'palate'.
Dammit.
> Unless I'm the one that's confused, anyway. And, well,
> I'm not sure how lighty-light it can be, unless we go look at Cordy and
> Groo's sexfest in Mexico for an episode, or something. But, well, we
> shall see.
Not lighty-light; just not as intense as the last three eps.
>> I'm really hoping 'The Price' is going to be dark. I wanna see what David
>> Fury can do, given the chance (remember, he wrote 'Helpless' and
>> 'Corrupt'...)
>
> 'Corrupt'? Eh? What?
The original 'Lonely Hearts'.
> And yes, Fury is at his best when he's doing dark stuff, character
> stuff, and not blowing shit up. And he can do funny, too. I'm looking
> forward to this. And I'm just wishing 'Buffy' would hurry the heck up
> and air.
I'm somehow less fussed about that.
Niall
--
This endless night goes on.
Niall Harrison
> Niall Harrison wrote:
>> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
>> > Saskia wrote:
>> >>
>> >> SPOILER
>> >> SPACE
>> >>
>> >> SPOILER
>> >> SPACE
>> >>
>> >> SPOILER
>> >> SPACE
>> >>
>> >> SPOILER
>> >> SPACE
>> >>
>> >> SPOILER
>> >> SPACE
>> >>
>> >> SPOILER
>> >> SPACE
>> >>
>> >> SPOILER
>> >> SPACE
>> >>
>> >> I really need to sleep but I just had to say Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhh!!!!!
>> >
>> > Bloody HELL.
>> >
>> > Jeff Bell delivered. Big time.
>>
>> I think it's fair to say he's earnt his wings, eh?
>
> Yep. A lobster-with-a-growth lapel pin for Jeff! Woo!
Can't we find something more attractive for him?
And this means all the major writers have produced a 'classic' ep this
season, so far as I'm concerned. Woo!
>> > S3 is on a veritable roll, and this,
>> > this...is a true high point. It's not as many layered as 'Loyalty' was,
>> > at least not at first glance (I may be way, way wrong)
>>
>> Not as layered, no. But still some goodness, what with the comparing and
>> contrasting between everyone's dealing with the fallout. I really like
>> that they played up the Justine angle.
>
> I'm still a bit confused over Justine.
In what way?
> At the end of the day, this is
> what 'Offspring' and 'Quickeining' should've been: it felt important,
> the themes were spot on, the depth was there, and it was a big setup-y
> happenin' fest.
No argument there. Although I like 'Quickening'.
But you know my theory about how the pregnancy hamstrung the first half of
S3 by now.
Niall
--
You 21st-century types are so jaded.
Mattia Valente
> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
>> Niall Harrison wrote:
>>>
>>> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
>>> > Saskia wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Saskia wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> > SPOILER
>>> >> > SPACE
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > SPOILER
>>> >> > SPACE
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > SPOILER
>>> >> > SPACE
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > SPOILER
>>> >> > SPACE
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > SPOILER
>>> >> > SPACE
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > SPOILER
>>> >> > SPACE
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > SPOILER
>>> >> > SPACE
>
> I didn't see the Fred-the-ballerina picture before WITW, only
> afterwards.
Oh. Okay then. But I still haven't seen the pic in question, mind you. Have
to play the big catch-up game in UMTA, not gonna happen right away, due to
the contrainst of business.
> Christy posted the link on umta somewhere, if you haven't seen it.
Kewl.
>>> Love that he was still concerned about his masculinity. :-)
>>
>> :o)
>
> Another little thing that was Just Great: Fred's fear of portals.
Luuurvely. All the details in this episode were, quite frankly, Just Great.
None of them (besides, maybe, the agonizingly long time it took to 'deal'
with Wesley, but that was by design) grated.
Just one thing, though: the pre-torture scene: was I the only one that saw
that coming the moment he started playing with the staple remover? Or am I
just evil?
>>> Yep. Tim was right. Clever boy. And it means that the Ram book in
>>> 'Couplet' was a plany, after all.
>>
>> Plant, you mean?
>
> Uh, yeah.
Okay. We're clear, then.
>> And, uh, how does this mean that the book in 'Couplet'
>> was actually a plant, pray tell? My brain's a bit knackered, to be
>> honest. Oh, wait, you're gonna explain.
>
> Not a plant within the show, but a deliberate hint to the viewers -
> W&H is involved, This Is Not Good.
Aaaah. Um, still a bit of a stretch. The W&H are somehow involved should
hardly come as a surprise to anyone. Oh, and ironically, this 'plan' looks
to be at least as effective, if not more so than W&H attempts at beige last
year.
>>> > Apparently. I need to go rewatch 'Loyalty' to have a
>>> > looksee at the McOracle and what that was all about, though.
>>>
>>> Devour = "to consume hungrily"
>>
>> I'm gonna need more than a definition of 'devour'.
>
> Why? That's what Angel did. He consumed Connor's blood. Which, by
> MEverse logic, *is* Connor.
Ah, okay then. What I meant is that I didn't recall exactly what the
McOracle said. 's all I meant, really. And one word was a bit of a skimpy
answer, and with me too lazy to look up the shooting script/transcripts,
well....
>>> > Yeah. Mebbe Dru will show up and kill him. Ahum.
>>>
>>> Nah. It was 'the one sired by the vampire with a soul will grow to
>>> manhood and kill Sahjan'.
>>
>> Spike, then? He's still a boy, I tell ye!
>
> Feh.
You sound like Eve.
> _Buffy_ can keep him now. :-P
:-p
You just want Justine. You fanboy, you.
>> I was so grinning my head off.
>
> Made me a happy man.
Strange, really, that we were both moved by intentionally cheesy elevator
muzak, isn't it?
>>> Rob Kral was going great guns this ep, what with making use of the
>>> Holtz-killing-Sarah theme from 'Lullaby' and all...
>>
>> 'twas quite scrumptios. It was all setup, really, but in a tasty,
>> important feeling, goodness way.
>
> This ep? I thought there was quite a bit of resolution.
True. Which is why it was good, methinks, but mostly it bodes very, very
well for the final five.
> Justine and
> the rest of Holz' gang is resolved (ish); Sahjan is gone; we know why
> Sahjan didn't do the portal trick before;
I'm not sure I want Sahjan to be gone for good, like. Still a bit unclear
as to the how and the what of him. Okay, so his reason for wanting to kill
Connor is that Connor is supposed to kill him, but, er, what makes him
tick, exactly? His mystery is there, but so is, in a sense, his 2
dimensionality.
> Angel followed through on
> his promise to Connor's godfather...
Eh? Promise? What?
>>> Reminded me very much of the D&D system of good and evil, in that
>>> she appeared to be a representative of Lawful Evil.
>>
>> Erm, since it is a *law*firm..
>
> Well, true. But it's another mark in the 'cosmic balance theory'
> column, I think.
Perhaps. Mostly, though, it was just cool.
>>...and, uh, D&D? You're dating yourself..
>
> Well, it's not as if anybody else would date me.
>
> Ba-dum-*tsch*
Har har.
>> Sorta kinda. Obsessive Angel. Only much, much worse. Foreshadowing
>> much?
>
> Looks like. Did you see Shanna's 'fun with forshadowing' post on ata?
> Worth a read.
Maybe. I'm not in the mood to sub to ata. TOo busy as it is.
>> I sense that this may be a problem for Debs.
>
> I'm shocked.
Well, this is Debra we're talking about. Like, y'know, moral compass, yadda
yadda yadda, righteous hero, blah blah blah. Mayhap a bit less ambiguous
than Angel in TV, since he's not all 'uncaring' of the consequences and
laid back, and remains pissed off...and homicidal, I might add.
>>> Then, W&H blackmailed Angel to do their bidding. Here, Angel
>>> blackmailed W&H to do his bidding. Both cases, to save somebody
>>> important to them. Both cases involved dimensional travel. Both
>>> cases are going to have consequences...
>>
>> Both cases were written by Jeff Bell. Both involved very, very
>> memorable 'demonic'/godlt-representative presences, one wreathed in
>> Black, in darkness and Flame, in the shape of a monster, a demon,
>> ironically a force of good, in the other, a child, the face of
>> innocence, in a well lit bright white room, agent of evil. There are
>> a lot of mirrored metaphors here...tasty!
>
> What else did we come up with on IRC?
Dunno. I think we've got most of it.
> Angel releases an evil in TVT and contains one in 'Forgiving'
> (although I think he probably also released one).
Here's hopin'! Because otherwise, he's getting off far, far too easy.
> There was something about the kid in the White Room being an inversion
> of something, other than what you've put above, but I can't remember.
> Dang.
Diametrical opposition? I used 'diametrically' once, I know I did. Because
it's a cool word. I can't be arsed to VNC home and read my logs, quite
frankly.
>> Be more specific. You mean that he's 'different', or his 'take
>> charge' deal? Or what?
>
> The thing about it not being his responsibility.
Ah yes. Loss of control. Very, very frustrating thing, and we know Angel is
rather shit at being out of control. Things tend not to go too splendidly.
> I'm wondering whether
> whatever what's about to happen is going to teach him a lesson about
> consequences. We shall see.
/me steals a 'what' and sticks the 's to 'whatever' for Niall...
There. Now it makes sense. Sort of.
>>> It's now got the best arc.
>>
>> Looking a lot like that. It does depend on the resolution, though.
>> Which I trust will be good.
>
> Well, seeing as how the S2 arc ended with 'Epiphany', I think this
> one's better already.
Not to be the super pessimistic one, like, but the end defines the arc, to
a degree. It's hanging, right now. As is Cordy's demonness. Which I hope
will be weaved deftly into the story.
>>> I'm expecting next week to be something of a pallette-cleanser; not
>>> light, but not as dark as the past three. And then darky-dark dark
>>> for the four episodes leading up to the finale.
>>
>> That's 'palate'.
>
> Dammit.
You artistic types....tsss...
...wait. You're a scientist type, aren't you? Damned confusing, I tell ye.
>> Unless I'm the one that's confused, anyway. And, well,
>> I'm not sure how lighty-light it can be, unless we go look at Cordy
>> and Groo's sexfest in Mexico for an episode, or something. But, well,
>> we shall see.
>
> Not lighty-light; just not as intense as the last three eps.
That would be hard to keep up, methinks. And possibly alienate viewers, or
something. Not that any of these is a valid reason to do it, mind.
>>> I'm really hoping 'The Price' is going to be dark. I wanna see what
>>> David Fury can do, given the chance (remember, he wrote 'Helpless'
>>> and 'Corrupt'...)
>>
>> 'Corrupt'? Eh? What?
>
> The original 'Lonely Hearts'.
Aaaah.....it would be nice if you referenced this sort of thing more
clearly. I mean, I have read the shootig script, discussed it, even, but I
was searching for something I'd seen in live action on screen. Wasn't
working all too well. But yes, goodness.
>> And yes, Fury is at his best when he's doing dark stuff, character
>> stuff, and not blowing shit up. And he can do funny, too. I'm looking
>> forward to this. And I'm just wishing 'Buffy' would hurry the heck up
>> and air.
>
> I'm somehow less fussed about that.
I know, I know. Less fussed, yes, because we're not smack in the middle of
something in the same way we are in 'Angel'. Plus, it all feels smaller,
more personal, which is fine because I actually do care about the
characters, but....yes, Angel's got the edge, and keeps honing it.
Mattia
Mattia Valente
> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
>> Niall Harrison wrote:
>>> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
>>> > Saskia wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> SPOILER
>>> >> SPACE
>>> >>
>>> >> SPOILER
>>> >> SPACE
>>> >>
>>> >> SPOILER
>>> >> SPACE
>>> >>
>>> >> SPOILER
>>> >> SPACE
>>> >>
>>> >> SPOILER
>>> >> SPACE
>>> >>
>>> >> SPOILER
>>> >> SPACE
>>> >>
>>> >> SPOILER
>>> >> SPACE
>>> > Bloody HELL.
>>> >
>>> > Jeff Bell delivered. Big time.
>>>
>>> I think it's fair to say he's earnt his wings, eh?
>>
>> Yep. A lobster-with-a-growth lapel pin for Jeff! Woo!
>
> Can't we find something more attractive for him?
Well, it's thematically appropriate, sorta kinda. But okay, he can have a
gold script 'A' button. That better?
> And this means all the major writers have produced a 'classic' ep this
> season, so far as I'm concerned. Woo!
I'm assuming you're referring to 'Heartthrob' where DG is concerned, right?
>> I'm still a bit confused over Justine.
>
> In what way?
I sorta like her, but I'm not exactly thrilled to bits, like. The character
development, though consistent, remains a bit cursory for me (this episode
adds a lot of depth, but that's still relative), she's an interesting
character, but I just feel she hasn't been used to her full potential.
>> At the end of the day, this is
>> what 'Offspring' and 'Quickeining' should've been: it felt important,
>> the themes were spot on, the depth was there, and it was a big
>> setup-y happenin' fest.
>
> No argument there. Although I like 'Quickening'.
I liked 'Quickening' too, but it's no 'Forgiving'. This better.
> But you know my theory about how the pregnancy hamstrung the first
> half of S3 by now.
The dragged outedness of it all and the frustration at waiting for the
damned baby, ya mean?
Mattia
Saskia
On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Niall Harrison wrote:
> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
> > Niall Harrison wrote:
> >>
> >> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
> >> > Saskia wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Saskia wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> > SPACE
> >
>
> I didn't see the Fred-the-ballerina picture before WITW, only afterwards.
>
> Christy posted the link on umta somewhere, if you haven't seen it.
Sounds cool. Will look for it tonight.
> Another little thing that was Just Great: Fred's fear of portals.
Yes.
> > And, uh, how does this mean that the book in 'Couplet'
> > was actually a plant, pray tell? My brain's a bit knackered, to be
> > honest. Oh, wait, you're gonna explain.
>
> Not a plant within the show, but a deliberate hint to the viewers - W&H is
> involved, This Is Not Good.
Not sure I'm getting this...
> >> > Apparently. I need to go rewatch 'Loyalty' to have a
> >> > looksee at the McOracle and what that was all about, though.
> >>
> >> Devour = "to consume hungrily"
> >
> > I'm gonna need more than a definition of 'devour'.
>
> Why? That's what Angel did. He consumed Connor's blood. Which, by MEverse
> logic, *is* Connor.
But he wasn't *sired* by Angel. Just drinking someone's blood isn't
siring.
> >> > The White room was bloody *brilliant*. Elevator music and elevator rides
> >> > = damned cool stuff. On 'Angel' they do, anyway.
> >>
> >> I nearly died when I heard it was the same music.
> >
> > I was so grinning my head off.
>
> Made me a happy man.
I can't believe you people actually recognized that tune. Freaky fanboys.
:p
> >> Rob Kral was going great guns this ep, what with making use of the
> >> Holtz-killing-Sarah theme from 'Lullaby' and all...
And again I say ff. <rolls eyes> ;)
> > 'twas quite scrumptios. It was all setup, really, but in a tasty,
> > important feeling, goodness way.
>
> This ep? I thought there was quite a bit of resolution. Justine and the
> rest of Holz' gang is resolved (ish); Sahjan is gone; we know why Sahjan
> didn't do the portal trick before; Angel followed through on his promise
> to Connor's godfather...
Sahjan's not gone, he's just locked up. Someone gets a little too druk and
accidently opens the lid or drops the jar and out he comes. No, I think
he'll be back.
> > Sorta kinda. Obsessive Angel. Only much, much worse. Foreshadowing much?
>
> Looks like. Did you see Shanna's 'fun with forshadowing' post on ata?
> Worth a read.
My god. I just printed it. It's *ten* pages! Should be interesting to read
although I might wait. I want to go back and look for them myself, I'm
planning to rewatch the whole season back to back in a few weeks time,
when I have a few days off.
> >> >> I love this show. Is it next week already?
> >> >
> >> > I'm so, so glad to read this. Early S3, you had me worried, quite
> >> > frankly. But I gotta agree, from 'Lullaby' on, all the odd numbered
> >> > episodes, S3 really, really found it's groove.
> >>
> >> It's now got the best arc.
I think I agree. Although I am thoroughly enjoying S2 which is being aired
in NL atm.
> > And yes, Fury is at his best when he's doing dark stuff, character
> > stuff, and not blowing shit up. And he can do funny, too. I'm looking
> > forward to this. And I'm just wishing 'Buffy' would hurry the heck up
> > and air.
>
> I'm somehow less fussed about that.
I want Buffy back too. It's still my old love and I hope no one will ever
force me to choose which show I enjoy most. Even though I might not be
too happy with some of the goings on there.
--
Saskia
Mattia Valente
news:Pine.BSI.4.33L2.02041...@xs4.xs4all.nl:
Yeah. Sounds like an MMMmmm...FRED moment just waitin' to happen, like.
>> Another little thing that was Just Great: Fred's fear of portals.
>
> Yes.
I like Fred.
>> > And, uh, how does this mean that the book in 'Couplet'
>> > was actually a plant, pray tell? My brain's a bit knackered, to be
>> > honest. Oh, wait, you're gonna explain.
>>
>> Not a plant within the show, but a deliberate hint to the viewers -
>> W&H is involved, This Is Not Good.
>
> Not sure I'm getting this...
In Couplet. That Pylea Wolf (or Ram, or Hart, whatever) book. In the
bookstore Wes visits. He thinks it's a subtle hint for attentive viewers
that W&H are somehow involved. What the book means, per se, I'm not so sure
about.
>> >> > Apparently. I need to go rewatch 'Loyalty' to have a
>> >> > looksee at the McOracle and what that was all about, though.
>> >>
>> >> Devour = "to consume hungrily"
>> >
>> > I'm gonna need more than a definition of 'devour'.
>>
>> Why? That's what Angel did. He consumed Connor's blood. Which, by
>> MEverse logic, *is* Connor.
>
> But he wasn't *sired* by Angel. Just drinking someone's blood isn't
> siring.
We're talking devouring, not siring. Which is what the McOracle said. Uh,
devouring, that is. As for 'sire', it's being using in the old fashioned
sense of the word, as in 'fathered'. Not the vampiric siring. Connor is
Angel's child, Angel is Connor's sire, aka Father.
>> >> > The White room was bloody *brilliant*. Elevator music and
>> >> > elevator rides = damned cool stuff. On 'Angel' they do, anyway.
>> >>
>> >> I nearly died when I heard it was the same music.
>> >
>> > I was so grinning my head off.
>>
>> Made me a happy man.
>
> I can't believe you people actually recognized that tune. Freaky
> fanboys.
>:p
Oh, c'mon! It's classic!
Anyway, :-p
>> >> Rob Kral was going great guns this ep, what with making use of the
>> >> Holtz-killing-Sarah theme from 'Lullaby' and all...
>
> And again I say ff. <rolls eyes> ;)
Score music rocks ass.
>> This ep? I thought there was quite a bit of resolution. Justine and
>> the rest of Holz' gang is resolved (ish); Sahjan is gone; we know why
>> Sahjan didn't do the portal trick before; Angel followed through on
>> his promise to Connor's godfather...
>
> Sahjan's not gone, he's just locked up. Someone gets a little too druk
> and accidently opens the lid or drops the jar and out he comes. No, I
> think he'll be back.
I hope he'll be back, lemme put it that way. Because there's too much we
don't know, and he's played too big a role to just be stuck in a jar like
that for the rest of time.
>> > Sorta kinda. Obsessive Angel. Only much, much worse. Foreshadowing
>> > much?
>>
>> Looks like. Did you see Shanna's 'fun with forshadowing' post on ata?
>> Worth a read.
>
> My god. I just printed it. It's *ten* pages! Should be interesting to
> read although I might wait. I want to go back and look for them
> myself, I'm planning to rewatch the whole season back to back in a few
> weeks time, when I have a few days off.
Oh dear lord....lunacy. You print usenet messages?
>> >> >> I love this show. Is it next week already?
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm so, so glad to read this. Early S3, you had me worried,
>> >> > quite frankly. But I gotta agree, from 'Lullaby' on, all the odd
>> >> > numbered episodes, S3 really, really found it's groove.
>> >>
>> >> It's now got the best arc.
>
> I think I agree. Although I am thoroughly enjoying S2 which is being
> aired in NL atm.
Well, duh. Because S2 rules.
>> > And yes, Fury is at his best when he's doing dark stuff, character
>> > stuff, and not blowing shit up. And he can do funny, too. I'm
>> > looking forward to this. And I'm just wishing 'Buffy' would hurry
>> > the heck up and air.
>>
>> I'm somehow less fussed about that.
>
> I want Buffy back too. It's still my old love and I hope no one will
> ever force me to choose which show I enjoy most. Even though I might
> not be too happy with some of the goings on there.
Quite.
Mattia
Saskia
On 17 Apr 2002, Mattia Valente wrote:
> Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> wrote in
> news:a9iebq$npm$2...@news.ox.ac.uk:
>
> > Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
> >> Niall Harrison wrote:
> >>> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
> >>> > Saskia wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> SPOILER
> >>> >> SPACE
> >>> >>
> >>> >> SPOILER
> >>> >> SPACE
> >>> >>
> >>> >> SPOILER
> >>> >> SPACE
> >>> >>
> >>> >> SPOILER
> >>> >> SPACE
> >>> >>
> >>> >> SPOILER
> >>> >> SPACE
> >>> >>
> >>> >> SPOILER
> >>> >> SPACE
> >>> >>
> >>> >> SPOILER
> >>> >> SPACE
> >>> > Bloody HELL.
> >>> >
> >> Yep. A lobster-with-a-growth lapel pin for Jeff! Woo!
> >
> > Can't we find something more attractive for him?
>
> Well, it's thematically appropriate, sorta kinda. But okay, he can have a
> gold script 'A' button. That better?
I'm going to nominate him for a Gold Spoon [tm]. Committee will
drink and decide soon.
> >> I'm still a bit confused over Justine.
> >
> > In what way?
>
> I sorta like her, but I'm not exactly thrilled to bits, like. The character
> development, though consistent, remains a bit cursory for me (this episode
> adds a lot of depth, but that's still relative), she's an interesting
> character, but I just feel she hasn't been used to her full potential.
What full potential?
I don't see much in there. Just a girl Holtz picked up off the street. We
hardly know anything about her or what she's like. We only know that she
hates vampires. That doesn't tell us anything about *her*, only about what
happened to her. She makes a fairly ok but not very interesting extra
character, but no more than the proverbial dispensable ensign in ST who
gets killed and no one really cares.
--
Saskia
Mattia Valente
>
Here, have some borrelnootjes.
>> >> I'm still a bit confused over Justine.
>> >
>> > In what way?
>>
>> I sorta like her, but I'm not exactly thrilled to bits, like. The
>> character development, though consistent, remains a bit cursory for
>> me (this episode adds a lot of depth, but that's still relative),
>> she's an interesting character, but I just feel she hasn't been used
>> to her full potential.
>
> What full potential?
Welll....
> I don't see much in there. Just a girl Holtz picked up off the street.
> We hardly know anything about her or what she's like. We only know
> that she hates vampires. That doesn't tell us anything about *her*,
> only about what happened to her. She makes a fairly ok but not very
> interesting extra character, but no more than the proverbial
> dispensable ensign in ST who gets killed and no one really cares.
Well, that's the thing, you see: she could be interesting. She's Gunn,
turned out differently, and maybe, just maybe, they won't 'screw up' her
character quite so badly as they did with Gunn.
Mattia
Saskia
On 17 Apr 2002, Mattia Valente wrote:
> news:Pine.BSI.4.33L2.02041...@xs4.xs4all.nl:
> > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Niall Harrison wrote:
> >> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
> >> > Niall Harrison wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
> >> >> > Saskia wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Saskia wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >
>
> >> > was actually a plant, pray tell? My brain's a bit knackered, to be
> >> > honest. Oh, wait, you're gonna explain.
> >>
> >> Not a plant within the show, but a deliberate hint to the viewers -
> >> W&H is involved, This Is Not Good.
> >
> > Not sure I'm getting this...
>
> In Couplet. That Pylea Wolf (or Ram, or Hart, whatever) book. In the
> bookstore Wes visits. He thinks it's a subtle hint for attentive viewers
> that W&H are somehow involved. What the book means, per se, I'm not so sure
> about.
Duh. That's my question: what does it mean?
> >> >> > Apparently. I need to go rewatch 'Loyalty' to have a
> >> >> > looksee at the McOracle and what that was all about, though.
> >> >>
> >> >> Devour = "to consume hungrily"
> >> >
> >> > I'm gonna need more than a definition of 'devour'.
> >>
> >> Why? That's what Angel did. He consumed Connor's blood. Which, by
> >> MEverse logic, *is* Connor.
> >
> > But he wasn't *sired* by Angel. Just drinking someone's blood isn't
> > siring.
>
> We're talking devouring, not siring. Which is what the McOracle said. Uh,
> devouring, that is. As for 'sire', it's being using in the old fashioned
> sense of the word, as in 'fathered'. Not the vampiric siring. Connor is
> Angel's child, Angel is Connor's sire, aka Father.
The old fashioned meaning of siring is fathering? First I heard of it. Is
this in our universe too, or just in the Angelverse? If the latter, when
was this mentioned? It would explain it though.
> > I can't believe you people actually recognized that tune. Freaky
> > fanboys.
> >:p
>
> Oh, c'mon! It's classic!
No it isn't. So it's no excuse. You two are ff.
> > Sahjan's not gone, he's just locked up. Someone gets a little too druk
> > and accidently opens the lid or drops the jar and out he comes. No, I
> > think he'll be back.
>
> I hope he'll be back, lemme put it that way. Because there's too much we
> don't know, and he's played too big a role to just be stuck in a jar like
> that for the rest of time.
Exactly. He can rewrite all he likes but I personally still feel a
prophecy is a prophecy, no matter who someone wrote it down. Connor will
come back to kill him. It would mean Connor has some fast groing up to
do... perhaps in the form of Groo!!!
> Oh dear lord....lunacy. You print usenet messages?
You think I'm gonna read all that off the screen? I can't read long texts
off my screen, hurts my eyes and it's much more relaxed to lie on the
couch while reading :)
--
Saskia
Mattia Valente
>> In Couplet. That Pylea Wolf (or Ram, or Hart, whatever) book. In the
>> bookstore Wes visits. He thinks it's a subtle hint for attentive
>> viewers that W&H are somehow involved. What the book means, per se,
>> I'm not so sure about.
>
> Duh. That's my question: what does it mean?
Oh. Dunno. That W&H are involved? Which, okay, granted, isn't exactly news
to anyone.
>> We're talking devouring, not siring. Which is what the McOracle said.
>> Uh, devouring, that is. As for 'sire', it's being using in the old
>> fashioned sense of the word, as in 'fathered'. Not the vampiric
>> siring. Connor is Angel's child, Angel is Connor's sire, aka Father.
>
> The old fashioned meaning of siring is fathering? First I heard of it.
Yes.
> Is this in our universe too, or just in the Angelverse? If the latter,
> when was this mentioned? It would explain it though.
No, our universe. Normal usage of the word. It's use in the vampiric sense
comes later, obviously. Oh, and I hate using definitions, but, well, here
ya go:
sire
n. A father.
The male parent of an animal, especially a
domesticated mammal such as a horse.
Archaic. A male ancestor; a forefather.
Archaic. A gentleman of rank.
Archaic. Used as a form of address for a superior,
especially a king.
tr.v. sired, sir·ing, sires
To father; beget.
[Middle English, from Old French, from Vulgar Latin *seior, from Latin
senior, older, comparative of senex, old. See sen- in Indo-European Roots.]
See? Perfectly normal use of the word. The Vampiric variety comes from
this, obviously, in that the vampire 'fathers' the next vamp.
>> > I can't believe you people actually recognized that tune. Freaky
>> > fanboys.
>> >:p
>>
>> Oh, c'mon! It's classic!
>
> No it isn't. So it's no excuse. You two are ff.
Pah!
Well, okay, it is true, but still, pah!
>> > Sahjan's not gone, he's just locked up. Someone gets a little too
>> > druk and accidently opens the lid or drops the jar and out he
>> > comes. No, I think he'll be back.
>>
>> I hope he'll be back, lemme put it that way. Because there's too much
>> we don't know, and he's played too big a role to just be stuck in a
>> jar like that for the rest of time.
>
> Exactly. He can rewrite all he likes but I personally still feel a
> prophecy is a prophecy, no matter who someone wrote it down. Connor
> will come back to kill him. It would mean Connor has some fast groing
> up to do... perhaps in the form of Groo!!!
You have strange faith in Porphecies, given all the not-so-true stuff we've
seen happen. I've got a bit more faith in the original, 'Connor will kill
Sahjan' prophecy, sorta kinda.
>> Oh dear lord....lunacy. You print usenet messages?
>
> You think I'm gonna read all that off the screen? I can't read long
> texts off my screen, hurts my eyes and it's much more relaxed to lie
> on the couch while reading :)
Pfffft.....
Mattia
Saskia
On 17 Apr 2002, Mattia Valente wrote:
> Saskia <sas...@nksf.nl> wrote in
> news:Pine.BSI.4.33L2.02041...@xs4.xs4all.nl:
> > On 17 Apr 2002, Mattia Valente wrote:
> >> Saskia <sas...@nksf.nl> wrote in
> >> news:Pine.BSI.4.33L2.02041...@xs4.xs4all.nl:
> >> > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Niall Harrison wrote:
> >> >> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
> >> >> > Niall Harrison wrote:
> >> >> >> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
> >> >> >> > Saskia wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Saskia wrote:
This is the ugliest torentje I've ever seen!
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> >> >> > SPACE
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > SPOILER
> >> >> >> >> > SPACE
> > The old fashioned meaning of siring is fathering? First I heard of it.
>
> Yes.
>
> > Is this in our universe too, or just in the Angelverse? If the latter,
> > when was this mentioned? It would explain it though.
>
> No, our universe. Normal usage of the word. It's use in the vampiric sense
> comes later, obviously. Oh, and I hate using definitions, but, well, here
> ya go:
>
> sire
> n. A father.
> The male parent of an animal, especially a
> domesticated mammal such as a horse.
> Archaic. A male ancestor; a forefather.
> Archaic. A gentleman of rank.
> Archaic. Used as a form of address for a superior,
> especially a king.
>
> tr.v. sired, sir·ing, sires
> To father; beget.
>
> [Middle English, from Old French, from Vulgar Latin *seior, from Latin
> senior, older, comparative of senex, old. See sen- in Indo-European Roots.]
Ohhh Mattia... how very PK of you!
<d+r>
> See? Perfectly normal use of the word. The Vampiric variety comes from
> this, obviously, in that the vampire 'fathers' the next vamp.
I see now. See, I didn't know this, hence the terrible confusion. Thanks.
> >> I hope he'll be back, lemme put it that way. Because there's too much
> >> we don't know, and he's played too big a role to just be stuck in a
> >> jar like that for the rest of time.
> >
> > Exactly. He can rewrite all he likes but I personally still feel a
> > prophecy is a prophecy, no matter who someone wrote it down. Connor
> > will come back to kill him. It would mean Connor has some fast groing
> > up to do... perhaps in the form of Groo!!!
>
> You have strange faith in Porphecies, given all the not-so-true stuff we've
> seen happen. I've got a bit more faith in the original, 'Connor will kill
> Sahjan' prophecy, sorta kinda.
That's what I said. Connor will come back to kill Sahjan.
> >> Oh dear lord....lunacy. You print usenet messages?
> >
> > You think I'm gonna read all that off the screen? I can't read long
> > texts off my screen, hurts my eyes and it's much more relaxed to lie
> > on the couch while reading :)
>
> Pfffft.....
:P At least I'm not a freaky fanboy :p
--
Saskia
Niall Harrison
> Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> wrote in
>> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
>>> Niall Harrison wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
>>>> > Saskia wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Saskia wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > SPOILER
>>>> >> > SPACE
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > SPOILER
>>>> >> > SPACE
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > SPOILER
>>>> >> > SPACE
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > SPOILER
>>>> >> > SPACE
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > SPOILER
>>>> >> > SPACE
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > SPOILER
>>>> >> > SPACE
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > SPOILER
>>>> >> > SPACE
>
> Just one thing, though: the pre-torture scene: was I the only one that saw
> that coming the moment he started playing with the staple remover? Or am I
> just evil?
I think that was just you. :-)
Seeing Linwood there was when I realised this episode was moving beyond
'good'.
>>> And, uh, how does this mean that the book in 'Couplet'
>>> was actually a plant, pray tell? My brain's a bit knackered, to be
>>> honest. Oh, wait, you're gonna explain.
>>
>> Not a plant within the show, but a deliberate hint to the viewers -
>> W&H is involved, This Is Not Good.
>
> Aaaah. Um, still a bit of a stretch. The W&H are somehow involved should
> hardly come as a surprise to anyone.
Do you mean the characters or the viewers?
> Oh, and ironically, this 'plan' looks
> to be at least as effective, if not more so than W&H attempts at beige last
> year.
I dunno; I think that Angel will be slightly more rational when he calms
down some. I don't see him staying that angry at Wes for that long.
>>>> > Apparently. I need to go rewatch 'Loyalty' to have a
>>>> > looksee at the McOracle and what that was all about, though.
>>>>
>>>> Devour = "to consume hungrily"
>>>
>>> I'm gonna need more than a definition of 'devour'.
>>
>> Why? That's what Angel did. He consumed Connor's blood. Which, by
>> MEverse logic, *is* Connor.
>
> Ah, okay then. What I meant is that I didn't recall exactly what the
> McOracle said. 's all I meant, really. And one word was a bit of a skimpy
> answer, and with me too lazy to look up the shooting script/transcripts,
> well....
OK. Must provide more detail in my posts in future. :-)
> You just want Justine. You fanboy, you.
Yes. And? Justine rocks.
>>>> Rob Kral was going great guns this ep, what with making use of the
>>>> Holtz-killing-Sarah theme from 'Lullaby' and all...
>>>
>>> 'twas quite scrumptios. It was all setup, really, but in a tasty,
>>> important feeling, goodness way.
>>
>> This ep? I thought there was quite a bit of resolution.
>
> True. Which is why it was good, methinks, but mostly it bodes very, very
> well for the final five.
Well, next week is from the man who gave us 'Dad'. I'm cautiously
optimistic, but not expecting the fireworks we had this week.
>> Justine and
>> the rest of Holz' gang is resolved (ish); Sahjan is gone; we know why
>> Sahjan didn't do the portal trick before;
>
> I'm not sure I want Sahjan to be gone for good, like.
Me either, but the way things stand now there's no reason he *has* to be
back. He's not a big dangling plot thread; they can bring him back if they
want, but ultimately he's served his purpose.
> Still a bit unclear
> as to the how and the what of him. Okay, so his reason for wanting to kill
> Connor is that Connor is supposed to kill him, but, er, what makes him
> tick, exactly?
"I can't tell you how much I've missed doing that"
The bit that piqued my curiousity was that the White Room being said "*we*
changed his people", or words to that effect.
>> Angel followed through on
>> his promise to Connor's godfather...
>
> Eh? Promise? What?
At the end of 'Dad', where he said that anything that happened to Connor
would happen to Linwood.
>>> Sorta kinda. Obsessive Angel. Only much, much worse. Foreshadowing
>>> much?
>>
>> Looks like. Did you see Shanna's 'fun with forshadowing' post on ata?
>> Worth a read.
>
> Maybe. I'm not in the mood to sub to ata. TOo busy as it is.
I'm gonna post it to umta after 'Sleep Tight' airs. Interesting read;
especially when it points out the degree to which TOGOM forshadows
'Loyalty' and 'Sleep TIght'.
>>> I sense that this may be a problem for Debs.
>>
>> I'm shocked.
>
> Well, this is Debra we're talking about. Like, y'know, moral compass, yadda
> yadda yadda, righteous hero, blah blah blah.
If we end up getting 'Billy' redux in these last few episodes, but with
Angel learning how he should have ideally dealt with it first time around,
I'm gonna be *so* happy. :-)
>> Angel releases an evil in TVT and contains one in 'Forgiving'
>> (although I think he probably also released one).
>
> Here's hopin'! Because otherwise, he's getting off far, far too easy.
The thing about magic is, there's always consequences.
>> I'm wondering whether
>> whatever what's about to happen is going to teach him a lesson about
>> consequences. We shall see.
>
> /me steals a 'what' and sticks the 's to 'whatever' for Niall...
>
> There. Now it makes sense. Sort of.
Must post when awake, in the future.
>>>> It's now got the best arc.
>>>
>>> Looking a lot like that. It does depend on the resolution, though.
>>> Which I trust will be good.
>>
>> Well, seeing as how the S2 arc ended with 'Epiphany', I think this
>> one's better already.
>
> Not to be the super pessimistic one, like, but the end defines the arc, to
> a degree. It's hanging, right now.
What is hanging, exactly? Connor's fate, OK; but other than that? The
Holtz story is mostly told, Sahjan is mostly dealt with, etc. We're
getting new issues introduced - what's Linwood going to do next, for
instance?
> As is Cordy's demonness. Which I hope
> will be weaved deftly into the story.
'The Price', I'm telling you.
>>>> I'm really hoping 'The Price' is going to be dark. I wanna see what
>>>> David Fury can do, given the chance (remember, he wrote 'Helpless'
>>>> and 'Corrupt'...)
>>>
>>> 'Corrupt'? Eh? What?
>>
>> The original 'Lonely Hearts'.
>
> Aaaah.....it would be nice if you referenced this sort of thing more
> clearly. I mean, I have read the shootig script, discussed it, even, but I
> was searching for something I'd seen in live action on screen. Wasn't
> working all too well. But yes, goodness.
Right, will do in the future.
>>> And yes, Fury is at his best when he's doing dark stuff, character
>>> stuff, and not blowing shit up. And he can do funny, too. I'm looking
>>> forward to this. And I'm just wishing 'Buffy' would hurry the heck up
>>> and air.
>>
>> I'm somehow less fussed about that.
>
> I know, I know.
I still want to know, you understand. I still have high hopes for these
last few eps. There just isn't the same urgency.
Niall
--
Do my eyes seem empty?
I've forgotten how this feels.
Niall Harrison
I'm sure he'll be happy with it.
>> And this means all the major writers have produced a 'classic' ep this
>> season, so far as I'm concerned. Woo!
>
> I'm assuming you're referring to 'Heartthrob' where DG is concerned, right?
Actually, 'Sleep Tight'. 'Heartthrob' is a great season premiere, but ST
is the better episode. The first half is a bit shaky, but from the start
of act III I've decided it's all really, really good. Even if the ending
falls a little flat.
>>> I'm still a bit confused over Justine.
>>
>> In what way?
>
> I sorta like her, but I'm not exactly thrilled to bits, like. The character
> development, though consistent, remains a bit cursory for me (this episode
> adds a lot of depth, but that's still relative), she's an interesting
> character, but I just feel she hasn't been used to her full potential.
Yes...but she's definitely getting there, what with her meeting Fred and
Gunn in this ep.
>>> At the end of the day, this is
>>> what 'Offspring' and 'Quickeining' should've been: it felt important,
>>> the themes were spot on, the depth was there, and it was a big
>>> setup-y happenin' fest.
>>
>> No argument there. Although I like 'Quickening'.
>
> I liked 'Quickening' too, but it's no 'Forgiving'. This better.
Well, duh.
>> But you know my theory about how the pregnancy hamstrung the first
>> half of S3 by now.
>
> The dragged outedness of it all and the frustration at waiting for the
> damned baby, ya mean?
I think that once the writers decided on bringing back Darla pregnant, a
couple of things happened. (1) The rest of the arc, post-birth, fell into
place quite easily - that's what we're getting now; really, the only truly
disappointing ep since 'Lullaby' has been 'Provider', and the majority of
them have been real damn good. (2) It screwed the first half of the
season. The birth obviously had to be the end of november sweeps, but with
the big plans for afterwards it meant that nothing too momentous could
happen beforehands, so you end up with some lacklustre episodes which feel
too much like filler.
Niall
--
And the moral of the story is - Kids! Don't make deals with magical
omnisexual cephalopods! They are Bad Bad Bad!
Mattia Valente
Really?
> Seeing Linwood there was when I realised this episode was moving beyond
> 'good'.
Heh. Maybe I have more faith than you. Pikelet-like levels, perhaps. Or
maybe I'm a big ole cynic. Or something. But I did very much expect
that.
> >> Not a plant within the show, but a deliberate hint to the viewers -
> >> W&H is involved, This Is Not Good.
> >
> > Aaaah. Um, still a bit of a stretch. The W&H are somehow involved should
> > hardly come as a surprise to anyone.
>
> Do you mean the characters or the viewers?
Both, but mostly the viewers.
> > Oh, and ironically, this 'plan' looks
> > to be at least as effective, if not more so than W&H attempts at beige last
> > year.
>
> I dunno; I think that Angel will be slightly more rational when he calms
> down some. I don't see him staying that angry at Wes for that long.
No. But you really think reason is gonna bring him off this obsession
with getting his kid, his *son*, a true innocent, borne of the woman he
tried to save last time, the woman who's downfall almost proved to be
his own? Nuh uh. Not fast, anyway. Or I hope not.
> >>>> > Apparently. I need to go rewatch 'Loyalty' to have a
> >>>> > looksee at the McOracle and what that was all about, though.
> >>>>
> >>>> Devour = "to consume hungrily"
> >>>
> >>> I'm gonna need more than a definition of 'devour'.
> >>
> >> Why? That's what Angel did. He consumed Connor's blood. Which, by
> >> MEverse logic, *is* Connor.
> >
> > Ah, okay then. What I meant is that I didn't recall exactly what the
> > McOracle said. 's all I meant, really. And one word was a bit of a skimpy
> > answer, and with me too lazy to look up the shooting script/transcripts,
> > well....
>
> OK. Must provide more detail in my posts in future. :-)
A little more than the definition of 'Devour' would be good, yes. As a
general rule, it's more conducive to sensical answers instead of 'eh'
and 'huh' and 'whaddayameanyoubigfreakyfanboyperson' reactions.
> > You just want Justine. You fanboy, you.
>
> Yes. And? Justine rocks.
*sigh*
I meant that in a nudge nudge wink wink way.
> >> This ep? I thought there was quite a bit of resolution.
> >
> > True. Which is why it was good, methinks, but mostly it bodes very, very
> > well for the final five.
>
> Well, next week is from the man who gave us 'Dad'. I'm cautiously
> optimistic, but not expecting the fireworks we had this week.
ARGH!
Sorry. Gut reaction, that. At least Scott Murphy buggered off, eh?
> > I'm not sure I want Sahjan to be gone for good, like.
>
> Me either, but the way things stand now there's no reason he *has* to be
> back. He's not a big dangling plot thread; they can bring him back if they
> want, but ultimately he's served his purpose.
Yes, but the resolution is, for me, a bit too simple, to out-of-hand.
Because as it stands, Sahjan has purely been played as an excuse to
bring Holtz back and to wreck the whole 'Connor' situation. So, like,
it's a bit less than completely satisfying, if you catch my drift. It's
got less resolution than D&D did in S2, and, well, look at how people
bitched and moaned about that. I'll settle for this, but I'd like some
more.
> > Still a bit unclear
> > as to the how and the what of him. Okay, so his reason for wanting to kill
> > Connor is that Connor is supposed to kill him, but, er, what makes him
> > tick, exactly?
>
> "I can't tell you how much I've missed doing that"
Heh. That's not really what I meant. Why would Connor be out to kill
him? Of course, this is all in the future, but that doesn't make it less
annoying, like.
> The bit that piqued my curiousity was that the White Room being said "*we*
> changed his people", or words to that effect.
Oh yes. I love love LOVE the White Room scene. It's my new favorite
season 3 scene.
> >> Angel followed through on
> >> his promise to Connor's godfather...
> >
> > Eh? Promise? What?
>
> At the end of 'Dad', where he said that anything that happened to Connor
> would happen to Linwood.
Oh yeah. That.
> >>> Sorta kinda. Obsessive Angel. Only much, much worse. Foreshadowing
> >>> much?
> >>
> >> Looks like. Did you see Shanna's 'fun with forshadowing' post on ata?
> >> Worth a read.
> >
> > Maybe. I'm not in the mood to sub to ata. TOo busy as it is.
>
> I'm gonna post it to umta after 'Sleep Tight' airs. Interesting read;
> especially when it points out the degree to which TOGOM forshadows
> 'Loyalty' and 'Sleep TIght'.
Dun dun duuuuun. Now, the quesiton is how much of this is actually
intentional, though. Retcon intention or not.
> >>> I sense that this may be a problem for Debs.
> >>
> >> I'm shocked.
> >
> > Well, this is Debra we're talking about. Like, y'know, moral compass, yadda
> > yadda yadda, righteous hero, blah blah blah.
>
> If we end up getting 'Billy' redux in these last few episodes, but with
> Angel learning how he should have ideally dealt with it first time around,
> I'm gonna be *so* happy. :-)
Hehehehehehe..........I'm not too sure I would count on it.
> >> Angel releases an evil in TVT and contains one in 'Forgiving'
> >> (although I think he probably also released one).
> >
> > Here's hopin'! Because otherwise, he's getting off far, far too easy.
>
> The thing about magic is, there's always consequences.
Yeah. But, like, the actual spell-related consequences of raising Buffy
weren't all that, and this wasn't a patch on that. Wouldn't you say?
> >> I'm wondering whether
> >> whatever what's about to happen is going to teach him a lesson about
> >> consequences. We shall see.
> >
> > /me steals a 'what' and sticks the 's to 'whatever' for Niall...
> >
> > There. Now it makes sense. Sort of.
>
> Must post when awake, in the future.
It's a different kind of experience. Makes newsreading a bit less
psychedelic.
> >> Well, seeing as how the S2 arc ended with 'Epiphany', I think this
> >> one's better already.
> >
> > Not to be the super pessimistic one, like, but the end defines the arc, to
> > a degree. It's hanging, right now.
>
> What is hanging, exactly? Connor's fate, OK; but other than that? The
> Holtz story is mostly told, Sahjan is mostly dealt with, etc. We're
> getting new issues introduced - what's Linwood going to do next, for
> instance?
Well, quite. We've had part of the arc-y goodness, we've dealt with a
lot, but this is setup for the rest of the arc more than closure, IMO.
And bad endings tend to reflect badly on previous episodes. But I'm
carefully optimistic about all this stuff :-)
> > As is Cordy's demonness. Which I hope
> > will be weaved deftly into the story.
>
> 'The Price', I'm telling you.
I bloody well hope so. Because it's about damned time.
> >>> 'Corrupt'? Eh? What?
> >>
> >> The original 'Lonely Hearts'.
> >
> > Aaaah.....it would be nice if you referenced this sort of thing more
> > clearly. I mean, I have read the shootig script, discussed it, even, but I
> > was searching for something I'd seen in live action on screen. Wasn't
> > working all too well. But yes, goodness.
>
> Right, will do in the future.
If you'd just said 'Corrupt', the Angel script that never got shot, I
would've gotten it in a heartbeat. Have you been rereading it lately, or
do you just really, really like the script or have stupidly good memory
(an ailment I suffer from at times..)
> >>> And yes, Fury is at his best when he's doing dark stuff, character
> >>> stuff, and not blowing shit up. And he can do funny, too. I'm looking
> >>> forward to this. And I'm just wishing 'Buffy' would hurry the heck up
> >>> and air.
> >>
> >> I'm somehow less fussed about that.
> >
> > I know, I know.
>
> I still want to know, you understand. I still have high hopes for these
> last few eps. There just isn't the same urgency.
True. I hope that the next ep or two will make me want for resolution
like this does, though.
Tafka
alt.buffy.europe said:
>
>SPOILER
>SPACE
>
>
>SPOILER
>SPACE
>
>
>SPOILER
>SPACE
>
>
>SPOILER
>SPACE
>
>
>SPOILER
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>
>
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>
>
>SPOILER
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>
I'm going to have to rewatch it sometime soon before I can post more
on the subject but: Oh. My. God.
If - as I have done with all the episodes this season - I was to make
my opinion on it count from the immediate post-watching thoughts ...
I'd have a new number 1.
Better than "Lullaby", better than "Loyalty".
Oh. My. God.
This episode was, IMHO, better than "Birthday" by a long way. I wasn't
especially gripped following "Loyalty" and I knew that the
Connor/Holtz storyline wasn't going to be resumed in the episodes
immediately following "Sleep Tight".
Oh. My. God.
I'm sitting here and am struggling to find a reason to be critical of
the episode. The only complaint I can have is that it was obvious from
the second Sahjhan began to overpower Angel/Fred/Gunn that Justine
would return to 'save the day'.
But that's a minor issue, and since the Urn was referenced by Holtz in
"Loyalty" and the little girl in the white room, I expected it to be
instrumental soon.
However, I, now, definately can't watch "Couplet" tomorrow (Sky One)
as it'll ruin the Jeff Bell image I have.
The only downside is that I've accidentally already read the episode
preview for next week and, well, I'm not happy.
I want *more*.
-Tafka-
"I meant to say, he's my favoritest character since Doyle."
"That's it, Angel's eating it." - Tim Minear
Mattia Valente
>
> Saskia <sas...@nksf.nl> on Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:13:59 +0200 in
> alt.buffy.europe said:
>
> >
> >SPOILER
> >SPACE
> >
> >
> >SPOILER
> >SPACE
> >
> >
> >SPOILER
> >SPACE
> >
> >
> >SPOILER
> >SPACE
> >
> >
> >SPOILER
> >SPACE
> >
> >
> >SPOILER
> >SPACE
> >
> >
> >SPOILER
> >SPACE
> >
>
> I'm going to have to rewatch it sometime soon before I can post more
> on the subject but: Oh. My. God.
That's pretty clear language.
> If - as I have done with all the episodes this season - I was to make
> my opinion on it count from the immediate post-watching thoughts ...
> I'd have a new number 1.
Whoa..seriously? Number one? Not sure about that, but damn it was
powerful.
> Better than "Lullaby", better than "Loyalty".
Well, better than Lullabye, yes, I think so. It's interesting that I've
got a tough time choosing between three episodes written by three
different writers. This can only be a good thing.
> Oh. My. God.
Yes yes, we got that..
> This episode was, IMHO, better than "Birthday" by a long way. I wasn't
> especially gripped following "Loyalty" and I knew that the
> Connor/Holtz storyline wasn't going to be resumed in the episodes
> immediately following "Sleep Tight".
Hoom. What about the multilayeredness and the thematic resonance in
'Loyalty'? And the brilliant AD eppie that it is?
> Oh. My. God.
>
> I'm sitting here and am struggling to find a reason to be critical of
> the episode. The only complaint I can have is that it was obvious from
> the second Sahjhan began to overpower Angel/Fred/Gunn that Justine
> would return to 'save the day'.
Well, okay. And that we got strung along re: Wes just for the sake of
being all evil, perhaps?
> But that's a minor issue, and since the Urn was referenced by Holtz in
> "Loyalty" and the little girl in the white room, I expected it to be
> instrumental soon.
Dun dun duuuun.
> However, I, now, definately can't watch "Couplet" tomorrow (Sky One)
> as it'll ruin the Jeff Bell image I have.
Why? At least half of it was Tim, and, like, the directing was Tim,
so....
Besides, you can't ever watch 'Angel' on Sky One. It's all cropped to
shit.
> The only downside is that I've accidentally already read the episode
> preview for next week and, well, I'm not happy.
AARGH!! SPOILERS EVIL!
> I want *more*.
We all do. Hopefully it's only about 5 days away...
Niall Harrison
> Saskia <sas...@nksf.nl> on Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:13:59 +0200 in
> alt.buffy.europe said:
>>
>>SPOILER
>>SPACE
>>
>>
>>SPOILER
>>SPACE
>>
>>
>>SPOILER
>>SPACE
>>
>>
>>SPOILER
>>SPACE
>>
>>
>>SPOILER
>>SPACE
>>
>>
>>SPOILER
>>SPACE
>>
>>
>>SPOILER
>>SPACE
>>
> If - as I have done with all the episodes this season - I was to make
> my opinion on it count from the immediate post-watching thoughts ...
> I'd have a new number 1.
>
> Better than "Lullaby", better than "Loyalty".
Them's fightin' words!
I mean, yes, these are probably the top three of the season. But
'Forgiving' better than 'Loyalty'? Pfft.
> I'm sitting here and am struggling to find a reason to be critical of
> the episode. The only complaint I can have is that it was obvious from
> the second Sahjhan began to overpower Angel/Fred/Gunn that Justine
> would return to 'save the day'.
Angel won't be locked up at the start of the next ep and he should be.
How's that?
> However, I, now, definately can't watch "Couplet" tomorrow (Sky One)
> as it'll ruin the Jeff Bell image I have.
I thought most of your 'Couplet' issues were due to being impatient for
Holtz' return (OK, and soppy Gunn), rather than actual problems with the
ep itself?
Guess I'll find out tomorrow...
> The only downside is that I've accidentally already read the episode
> preview for next week and, well, I'm not happy.
I'm dreading next week. Cordy will be back, it won't be as good as this
week, and all the cynics will complain that Cordy ruins the show.
Niall
--
Honest words don't know the damage they can do.
Niall Harrison
OK, I *hope* it was just you. And maybe Skyfire.
>> >> Not a plant within the show, but a deliberate hint to the viewers -
>> >> W&H is involved, This Is Not Good.
>> >
>> > Aaaah. Um, still a bit of a stretch. The W&H are somehow involved should
>> > hardly come as a surprise to anyone.
>>
>> Do you mean the characters or the viewers?
>
> Both, but mostly the viewers.
But most viewers aren't going to be so attentive as to notice a book that
appeared briefly last season and is only in-frame for about five seconds,
I suspect. :-)
I stand by my conviction that it's a nod to the viewers who were paying
attention. Mind you, TM will probably be back newsgrouping in the next
week or two, so we can always ask him.
>> > Oh, and ironically, this 'plan' looks
>> > to be at least as effective, if not more so than W&H attempts at beige last
>> > year.
>>
>> I dunno; I think that Angel will be slightly more rational when he calms
>> down some. I don't see him staying that angry at Wes for that long.
>
> No. But you really think reason is gonna bring him off this obsession
> with getting his kid, his *son*, a true innocent, borne of the woman he
> tried to save last time, the woman who's downfall almost proved to be
> his own? Nuh uh. Not fast, anyway. Or I hope not.
My suspicion is that we're in for a bit of despair next, as it starts to
look increasingly as though there's nothing Angel can do. Then something
will happen to bring back Connor, just when Angel's given up hope.
>> >> This ep? I thought there was quite a bit of resolution.
>> >
>> > True. Which is why it was good, methinks, but mostly it bodes very, very
>> > well for the final five.
>>
>> Well, next week is from the man who gave us 'Dad'. I'm cautiously
>> optimistic, but not expecting the fireworks we had this week.
>
> ARGH!
>
> Sorry. Gut reaction, that.
Bah. 'Dad' had good stuff in. Given a darker story to work with, I have
some faith that Mr Goodman can deliver.
> At least Scott Murphy buggered off, eh?
Amen.
>> > I'm not sure I want Sahjan to be gone for good, like.
>>
>> Me either, but the way things stand now there's no reason he *has* to be
>> back. He's not a big dangling plot thread; they can bring him back if they
>> want, but ultimately he's served his purpose.
>
> Yes, but the resolution is, for me, a bit too simple, to out-of-hand.
> Because as it stands, Sahjan has purely been played as an excuse to
> bring Holtz back and to wreck the whole 'Connor' situation. So, like,
> it's a bit less than completely satisfying, if you catch my drift. It's
> got less resolution than D&D did in S2, and, well, look at how people
> bitched and moaned about that. I'll settle for this, but I'd like some
> more.
Less resolution than D&D? I don't think so. Sahjan succeeds in his Evil
Plan, we find out what his Evil Plan is, he's defeated by Our Heroes. Much
more resolution-y than just vanishing into the night.
>> > Still a bit unclear
>> > as to the how and the what of him. Okay, so his reason for wanting to kill
>> > Connor is that Connor is supposed to kill him, but, er, what makes him
>> > tick, exactly?
>>
>> "I can't tell you how much I've missed doing that"
>
> Heh. That's not really what I meant. Why would Connor be out to kill
> him?
I assumed it would be an inadvertant thing. Connor wouldn't have a
particular grudge against Sahjan, he'd just end up killing the guy.
>> The bit that piqued my curiousity was that the White Room being said "*we*
>> changed his people", or words to that effect.
>
> Oh yes. I love love LOVE the White Room scene. It's my new favorite
> season 3 scene.
More favourite than the end of 'Lullaby'? More favourite than the
McOracle?
>> >>> Sorta kinda. Obsessive Angel. Only much, much worse. Foreshadowing
>> >>> much?
>> >>
>> >> Looks like. Did you see Shanna's 'fun with forshadowing' post on ata?
>> >> Worth a read.
>> >
>> > Maybe. I'm not in the mood to sub to ata. TOo busy as it is.
>>
>> I'm gonna post it to umta after 'Sleep Tight' airs. Interesting read;
>> especially when it points out the degree to which TOGOM forshadows
>> 'Loyalty' and 'Sleep TIght'.
>
> Dun dun duuuuun. Now, the quesiton is how much of this is actually
> intentional, though. Retcon intention or not.
I tend to give the benefit of the doubt for stuff within seasons,
especially when the episode in question is written by the co-executive
producer. It's not a stretch to think that when TOGOM was written that
they knew roughly what was going to happen in ST. Between seasons, I'm
more skeptical; I think the Holtz reference in 'The Trial', for instance,
was just thrown in there in case they wanted to come back to it later. I
don't think they'd decided on the Holtz story for S3 at that point.
I'm wondering if the Blims might come back next season, for the same
reason.
>> >> Angel releases an evil in TVT and contains one in 'Forgiving'
>> >> (although I think he probably also released one).
>> >
>> > Here's hopin'! Because otherwise, he's getting off far, far too easy.
>>
>> The thing about magic is, there's always consequences.
>
> Yeah. But, like, the actual spell-related consequences of raising Buffy
> weren't all that, and this wasn't a patch on that. Wouldn't you say?
Which is why I'm expecting more spell-related consequences down the line.
Possibly of a similar nature to 'After Life'; a created demon, or demons
bleeding through from another dimension. Something like that.
>> >> I'm wondering whether
>> >> whatever what's about to happen is going to teach him a lesson about
>> >> consequences. We shall see.
>> >
>> > /me steals a 'what' and sticks the 's to 'whatever' for Niall...
>> >
>> > There. Now it makes sense. Sort of.
>>
>> Must post when awake, in the future.
>
> It's a different kind of experience. Makes newsreading a bit less
> psychedelic.
But so much less fun!
OK, that's a big lie.
>> > As is Cordy's demonness. Which I hope
>> > will be weaved deftly into the story.
>>
>> 'The Price', I'm telling you.
>
> I bloody well hope so. Because it's about damned time.
If it's not, then I'll join you in complaining. I can deal with them not
dealing in her first ep back, but after that it needs to be done.
>> > Aaaah.....it would be nice if you referenced this sort of thing more
>> > clearly. I mean, I have read the shootig script, discussed it, even, but I
>> > was searching for something I'd seen in live action on screen. Wasn't
>> > working all too well. But yes, goodness.
>>
>> Right, will do in the future.
>
> If you'd just said 'Corrupt', the Angel script that never got shot, I
> would've gotten it in a heartbeat. Have you been rereading it lately, or
> do you just really, really like the script or have stupidly good memory
> (an ailment I suffer from at times..)
It's the memory one. Worryingly, _Angel_ trivia seems to be displacing
biochemistry in my mind...
Niall
--
...Breaking across all commercial and private frequencies, translating
into all known languages.
Tafka
"Loyalty" just didn't click with me as much, IMO. I didn't sit there
enjoying it quite as much. Maybe when I see it on Sky I may (cropping
aside).
>> I'm sitting here and am struggling to find a reason to be critical of
>> the episode. The only complaint I can have is that it was obvious from
>> the second Sahjhan began to overpower Angel/Fred/Gunn that Justine
>> would return to 'save the day'.
>
>Angel won't be locked up at the start of the next ep and he should be.
>How's that?
Pnar.
>> However, I, now, definately can't watch "Couplet" tomorrow (Sky One)
>> as it'll ruin the Jeff Bell image I have.
>
>I thought most of your 'Couplet' issues were due to being impatient for
>Holtz' return (OK, and soppy Gunn), rather than actual problems with the
>ep itself?
At the time, kinda yeah. Although I was on IRC last night and talking
to pikelet and I just found more, and more and more to dislike about
it. It's nothing deep especially, I just didn't like it when I watched
it.
And I re-read the script; nothing inspiring there neither.
>Guess I'll find out tomorrow...
If I bring myself to compose a review, that is.
I'll try, but I might have to write one whilst watching the encode.
Double-bill Friends is mighty tempting this week... :)
>> The only downside is that I've accidentally already read the episode
>> preview for next week and, well, I'm not happy.
>
>I'm dreading next week. Cordy will be back, it won't be as good as this
>week, and all the cynics will complain that Cordy ruins the show.
That'll be alt.tv.angel. I ignore most of their opinions anyway :)
-Tafka-
Ahhhh, my head. I think I'm sobering up. It's horrible.
Ah... God... I wish I was dead.
Tafka
+0200 in alt.buffy.europe said:
>Tafka wrote:
>>
>> Saskia <sas...@nksf.nl> on Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:13:59 +0200 in
>> alt.buffy.europe said:
>>
>> >
>> >SPOILER
>> >SPACE
>> >
>> >
>> >SPOILER
>> >SPACE
>> >
>> >
>> >SPOILER
>> >SPACE
>> >
>> >
>> >SPOILER
>> >SPACE
>> >
>> >
>> >SPOILER
>> >SPACE
>> >
>> >
>> >SPOILER
>> >SPACE
>> >
>> >
>> >SPOILER
>> >SPACE
>> If - as I have done with all the episodes this season - I was to make
>> my opinion on it count from the immediate post-watching thoughts ...
>> I'd have a new number 1.
>
>Whoa..seriously? Number one? Not sure about that, but damn it was
>powerful.
I just didn't have "Loyalty" click with me, as I said to Niall. It was
*very* good, yes - but from *watching* it there wasn't the same
feeling as there was when I watched "Forgiving".
>> Oh. My. God.
>
>Yes yes, we got that..
Just wouldn't like to be understated :)
>> This episode was, IMHO, better than "Birthday" by a long way. I wasn't
>> especially gripped following "Loyalty" and I knew that the
>> Connor/Holtz storyline wasn't going to be resumed in the episodes
>> immediately following "Sleep Tight".
>
>Hoom. What about the multilayeredness and the thematic resonance in
>'Loyalty'? And the brilliant AD eppie that it is?
Yes, I forgot AD's goodness.
Put it this way; rating the episodes I have "Loyalty" at 4.79 and
"Forgiving" at 4.85.
It is close, y'know.
(Birthday; 4.80. Phar!)
>> I'm sitting here and am struggling to find a reason to be critical of
>> the episode. The only complaint I can have is that it was obvious from
>> the second Sahjhan began to overpower Angel/Fred/Gunn that Justine
>> would return to 'save the day'.
>
>Well, okay. And that we got strung along re: Wes just for the sake of
>being all evil, perhaps?
There wouldn't have been much development in showing Wes getting from
the park to the hospital without the intervention of A N other, and
for that purpose it works for me. Wes is incapacitated and cannot make
his way there without assistance. It may be dragged out, but I think
it works.
>> However, I, now, definately can't watch "Couplet" tomorrow (Sky One)
>> as it'll ruin the Jeff Bell image I have.
>
>Why? At least half of it was Tim, and, like, the directing was Tim,
>so....
But Jeff Bell is the new Tim Minear, don't ya know? :)
-Tafka-
This is the City of the Angels and you haven't got any wings.
Niall Harrison
I think it's probably one of those episodes where you have to be in the
right mood. No distractions, allow yourself to get immersed - like
AYNOHYEB, say. For me, there was just so much damn *tension* in the
episode...it felt like it does when you're waiting for a storm to break.
>>> I'm sitting here and am struggling to find a reason to be critical of
>>> the episode. The only complaint I can have is that it was obvious from
>>> the second Sahjhan began to overpower Angel/Fred/Gunn that Justine
>>> would return to 'save the day'.
>>
>>Angel won't be locked up at the start of the next ep and he should be.
>>How's that?
>
> Pnar.
Hey, you asked. :-)
>>> However, I, now, definately can't watch "Couplet" tomorrow (Sky One)
>>> as it'll ruin the Jeff Bell image I have.
>>
>>I thought most of your 'Couplet' issues were due to being impatient for
>>Holtz' return (OK, and soppy Gunn), rather than actual problems with the
>>ep itself?
>
> At the time, kinda yeah. Although I was on IRC last night and talking
> to pikelet and I just found more, and more and more to dislike about
> it. It's nothing deep especially, I just didn't like it when I watched
> it.
Even the last eight (ish) minutes?
Altogether now:
"You 21st century types are-" [that's enough of that. Ed]
>>Guess I'll find out tomorrow...
>
> If I bring myself to compose a review, that is.
Look, you're not going to get away with spending a month saying "3x14
sucks!" and then not defending your position. uh-uh. :-P
>>> The only downside is that I've accidentally already read the episode
>>> preview for next week and, well, I'm not happy.
>>
>>I'm dreading next week. Cordy will be back, it won't be as good as this
>>week, and all the cynics will complain that Cordy ruins the show.
>
> That'll be alt.tv.angel. I ignore most of their opinions anyway :)
Actually it was TWoP. God knows why I keep going back there.
Niall
--
After the flood
All the colours came out.
Tafka
+0000 (UTC) in alt.buffy.europe said:
Includes spoilers for 3x14, but if you're reading this - more fool you
anyway :)
Maybe, except I felt no tension and one of the highlights is Angel
giving Groo a good kicking at the end of the episode. Well deserved,
too :)
>>>> However, I, now, definately can't watch "Couplet" tomorrow (Sky One)
>>>> as it'll ruin the Jeff Bell image I have.
>>>
>>>I thought most of your 'Couplet' issues were due to being impatient for
>>>Holtz' return (OK, and soppy Gunn), rather than actual problems with the
>>>ep itself?
>>
>> At the time, kinda yeah. Although I was on IRC last night and talking
>> to pikelet and I just found more, and more and more to dislike about
>> it. It's nothing deep especially, I just didn't like it when I watched
>> it.
>
>Even the last eight (ish) minutes?
The last few seconds will, I'm sure, redeem the episode because it -
without knowing what'll happen later - offers so much potential for
the rest of the season.
The last eight minutes? Surely not? I take it you mean from around
Angel/Groo going into the "demon-tree"?
>>>Guess I'll find out tomorrow...
>>
>> If I bring myself to compose a review, that is.
>
>Look, you're not going to get away with spending a month saying "3x14
>sucks!" and then not defending your position. uh-uh. :-P
Lorne has 12 lines in this episode. Two LOL funny.
Could this be a sign that no Lorne=not good? :)
>>>> The only downside is that I've accidentally already read the episode
>>>> preview for next week and, well, I'm not happy.
>>>
>>>I'm dreading next week. Cordy will be back, it won't be as good as this
>>>week, and all the cynics will complain that Cordy ruins the show.
>>
>> That'll be alt.tv.angel. I ignore most of their opinions anyway :)
>
>Actually it was TWoP. God knows why I keep going back there.
pikelet says it (the trailer) isn't particularly spoilery. I might
take a peek, just for fun.
-Tafka-
I didn't jump to conclusions.
I took a small step, and conclusions there were.
Tafka
>>> "Loyalty" just didn't click with me as much, IMO. I didn't sit there
>>> enjoying it quite as much. Maybe when I see it on Sky I may (cropping
>>> aside).
>>
>>I think it's probably one of those episodes where you have to be in the
>>right mood. No distractions, allow yourself to get immersed - like
>>AYNOHYEB, say. For me, there was just so much damn *tension* in the
>>episode...it felt like it does when you're waiting for a storm to break.
>
>Maybe, except I felt no tension and one of the highlights is Angel
>giving Groo a good kicking at the end of the episode. Well deserved,
>too :)
I wondered what you were on about :)
I forgot we were talking about Forgiving/Loyalty here also.
Scrub the above.
-Tafka-
You don't need proof when you have instinct.
Saskia
On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Niall Harrison wrote:
> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Tafka wrote:
> > Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> on Wed, 17 Apr 2002 18:05:44
> > +0000 (UTC) in alt.buffy.europe said:
> >>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Tafka wrote:
> >>> Saskia <sas...@nksf.nl> on Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:13:59 +0200 in
> >>> alt.buffy.europe said:
> >>
> >>>>
> >>>>SPOILER
> >>>>SPACE
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>SPOILER
> >>>>SPACE
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>SPOILER
> >>>>SPACE
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>SPOILER
> >>>>SPACE
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>SPOILER
> >>>>SPACE
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>SPOILER
> >>>>SPACE
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>SPOILER
> >>>>SPACE
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >>Guess I'll find out tomorrow...
> >
> > If I bring myself to compose a review, that is.
>
> Look, you're not going to get away with spending a month saying "3x14
> sucks!" and then not defending your position. uh-uh. :-P
Sky going on a break now? I was just thinking they should or they would
catch up with the US soon.
> >>I'm dreading next week. Cordy will be back, it won't be as good as this
> >>week, and all the cynics will complain that Cordy ruins the show.
Bah! Pah! Cordy Rocks!!
> > That'll be alt.tv.angel. I ignore most of their opinions anyway :)
>
> Actually it was TWoP. God knows why I keep going back there.
What's TWoP?
--
Saskia
Niall Harrison
>>>>> However, I, now, definately can't watch "Couplet" tomorrow (Sky One)
>>>>> as it'll ruin the Jeff Bell image I have.
>>>>
>>>>I thought most of your 'Couplet' issues were due to being impatient for
>>>>Holtz' return (OK, and soppy Gunn), rather than actual problems with the
>>>>ep itself?
>>>
>>> At the time, kinda yeah. Although I was on IRC last night and talking
>>> to pikelet and I just found more, and more and more to dislike about
>>> it. It's nothing deep especially, I just didn't like it when I watched
>>> it.
>>
>>Even the last eight (ish) minutes?
>
> The last few seconds will, I'm sure, redeem the episode because it -
> without knowing what'll happen later - offers so much potential for
> the rest of the season.
>
> The last eight minutes? Surely not? I take it you mean from around
> Angel/Groo going into the "demon-tree"?
No, from the Wes/Gunn conversation onwards. Great stuff.
Although I do quite like the tree showdown. "Oh, he's so brave! He's so
emotionally fallible! Well I'm smarter, and stronger, and I pick out my
own clothes!"
>>>>Guess I'll find out tomorrow...
>>>
>>> If I bring myself to compose a review, that is.
>>
>>Look, you're not going to get away with spending a month saying "3x14
>>sucks!" and then not defending your position. uh-uh. :-P
>
> Lorne has 12 lines in this episode. Two LOL funny.
> Could this be a sign that no Lorne=not good? :)
Nope. Going by that logic, 'Loyalty' would suck.
>>>>> The only downside is that I've accidentally already read the episode
>>>>> preview for next week and, well, I'm not happy.
>>>>
>>>>I'm dreading next week. Cordy will be back, it won't be as good as this
>>>>week, and all the cynics will complain that Cordy ruins the show.
>>>
>>> That'll be alt.tv.angel. I ignore most of their opinions anyway :)
>>
>>Actually it was TWoP. God knows why I keep going back there.
>
> pikelet says it (the trailer) isn't particularly spoilery. I might
> take a peek, just for fun.
Yeah, but you always think they're not spoilery, and then it turns out
they give away key plot points like Lorne's head on a platter.
Niall
--
It's like NATO...But much more pretentious!
Niall Harrison
Nope. Well, not as far as I know. No reason they should for _Angel_,
either, since they'll be about a month behind all the way now. With
_Buffy_ they'll be two days behind if they don't take any breaks, but
since C4 is airing _Smallville_ one day after the US, that should be
doable.
>> >>I'm dreading next week. Cordy will be back, it won't be as good as this
>> >>week, and all the cynics will complain that Cordy ruins the show.
>
> Bah! Pah! Cordy Rocks!!
Well, quite.
>> > That'll be alt.tv.angel. I ignore most of their opinions anyway :)
>>
>> Actually it was TWoP. God knows why I keep going back there.
>
> What's TWoP?
http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/
A more wretched hive of scum and cynicism you will never find. Be
cautious. :-P
Niall
--
Hope's the child of what luck brings.
Tafka
(Checks script)
Oh, that's - well - like two scenes? Wes/Gunn stuff is good, yeah but
nothing special. Not enough to redeem the ep, mind.
>>>Look, you're not going to get away with spending a month saying "3x14
>>>sucks!" and then not defending your position. uh-uh. :-P
>>
>> Lorne has 12 lines in this episode. Two LOL funny.
>> Could this be a sign that no Lorne=not good? :)
>
>Nope. Going by that logic, 'Loyalty' would suck.
Shhhhhh :)
>> pikelet says it (the trailer) isn't particularly spoilery. I might
>> take a peek, just for fun.
>
>Yeah, but you always think they're not spoilery, and then it turns out
>they give away key plot points like Lorne's head on a platter.
Hmm, could point.
-Tafka-
Now you can look to the Sun, and spot the moon
Mattia Valente
Indeed. 10 days behind is par for the course, judging from past years,
so...
> With
> _Buffy_ they'll be two days behind if they don't take any breaks, but
> since C4 is airing _Smallville_ one day after the US, that should be
> doable.
Dun dun duuun. It does pretty much guarantee crap conversions, though.
Cheap bastards.
>>> >>I'm dreading next week. Cordy will be back, it won't be as good as
>>> >>this week, and all the cynics will complain that Cordy ruins the
>>> >>show.
>>
>> Bah! Pah! Cordy Rocks!!
>
> Well, quite.
Indeed.
>>> > That'll be alt.tv.angel. I ignore most of their opinions anyway :)
>>>
>>> Actually it was TWoP. God knows why I keep going back there.
>>
>> What's TWoP?
>
> http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/
They who were once Mighty Big TV, right?
> A more wretched hive of scum and cynicism you will never find. Be
> cautious. :-P
SHeesh. Seriously, Niall, why do you bother going there? I mean, it's
cynical, and it's a webboard, ffs! A WEB board! Gah...
It's a fun site, though, to read up on shows you don't really really care
about too much and won't get worked up over and feel the need to reply if
they're spewing stuff you don't agree with at all.
Mattia
Niall Harrison
>>>>
>>>> Actually it was TWoP. God knows why I keep going back there.
>>>
>>> What's TWoP?
>>
>> http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/
>
> They who were once Mighty Big TV, right?
Yep.
>> A more wretched hive of scum and cynicism you will never find. Be
>> cautious. :-P
>
> SHeesh. Seriously, Niall, why do you bother going there? I mean, it's
> cynical, and it's a webboard, ffs! A WEB board! Gah...
Because I'm weak.
Niall
--
Oh look, there goes another year
About as distant as a satellite.
Mattia Valente
Checkaroo.
> >> A more wretched hive of scum and cynicism you will never find. Be
> >> cautious. :-P
> >
> > SHeesh. Seriously, Niall, why do you bother going there? I mean, it's
> > cynical, and it's a webboard, ffs! A WEB board! Gah...
>
> Because I'm weak.
Oh. So, like, the same reason you read TV guide synopsises (synopses?)
and watch promos, then?
Niall Harrison
>> >>
>> >> http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/
>> >
>> > They who were once Mighty Big TV, right?
>>
>> Yep.
>
> Checkaroo.
This version is more onamatapoeic, I suppose.
I'm pretty sure that's spelt wrong.
>> >> A more wretched hive of scum and cynicism you will never find. Be
>> >> cautious. :-P
>> >
>> > SHeesh. Seriously, Niall, why do you bother going there? I mean, it's
>> > cynical, and it's a webboard, ffs! A WEB board! Gah...
>>
>> Because I'm weak.
>
> Oh. So, like, the same reason you read TV guide synopsises (synopses?)
> and watch promos, then?
I'm managing to resist at the moment. Beyond the thing Tafka found in ata,
which is kind of a "well, duh" spoiler (but don't read it, obviously), and
a quick glance at a description of next week, I know nothing about the
upcoming episodes. Oh, except that there's a bad hair decision at some
point.
Niall
--
Honesty is a beautiful lie
People say what they will to get by.
Mattia Valente
Woo! Go you!
> Beyond the thing Tafka found in ata,
> which is kind of a "well, duh" spoiler (but don't read it, obviously), and
Quite. Tell me if it's safe for me to read after next week's ep, would
ya?
> a quick glance at a description of next week, I know nothing about the
> upcoming episodes.
Checkarooni.
> Oh, except that there's a bad hair decision at some point.
You say this like it *wasn't* always going to happen. I mean, honestly,
this is 'Angel' we're talking about.
Niall Harrison
>> >> > SHeesh. Seriously, Niall, why do you bother going there? I mean, it's
>> >> > cynical, and it's a webboard, ffs! A WEB board! Gah...
>> >>
>> >> Because I'm weak.
>> >
>> > Oh. So, like, the same reason you read TV guide synopsises (synopses?)
>> > and watch promos, then?
>>
>> I'm managing to resist at the moment.
>
> Woo! Go you!
'Forgiving' kinda gave me confidence that it would be worth it.
>> Beyond the thing Tafka found in ata,
>> which is kind of a "well, duh" spoiler (but don't read it, obviously), and
>
> Quite. Tell me if it's safe for me to read after next week's ep, would
> ya?
Unlikely, I would say. I wouldn't expect the thing it refers to to happen
for another couple of weeks. I'll tell you what it is when it's happened.
:-P
>> Oh, except that there's a bad hair decision at some point.
>
> You say this like it *wasn't* always going to happen. I mean, honestly,
> this is 'Angel' we're talking about.
Well, true.
Incidentally, here's a list of season themes that I've been playing with.
I can't be bothered to start a new thread. What d'you think of them?
1. Duty vs Desire
The big one, as far as I'm concerned. The conflict between what you want
to do and what you feel you should do. Gunn faced the dilemma in TOGOM,
Fred did it in 'Fredless', Cordy in 'Birthday' and Wes in 'Sleep Tight'
(although he didn't get much of a choice). 'Loyalty' is this theme in one
episode. Holtz is this theme in one character.
2. Free Will vs Destiny
I only noticed this one recently, but there's actually been quite a lot
this season about things that are 'meant to be' - and I'm not just talking
about prophecies, although that's a big part of it. I get the feeling
Fred's "evitable" speech in 'Offspring' may turn out to be important
towards the end of the season (Angel: "No son of mine is gonna be trapped
by some stinkin' prophecy!"). Then there's 'Birthday' and 'Waiting In the
Wings', which are all about that sort of issue.
3. Love
"Is this your idea of love, James? It isn't real unless it kills you?"
"Yeah, what's yours? It's fun as long as it doesn't cost me anything?"
Looking kinda prophetic now, isn't it? Anyway, there's a lot of lovin'
going on this year. There are the various triangles in AI, there's Angel
and Connor as compared with Holtz and his kids, there's whatever the hell
that relationship between Justine and Holtz was...
4. Family
5. Responsibility
These two can be seen as subsidiary aspects of the 'duty vs desire' theme,
I think. There's definitely been a family vibe this season ('Fredless' and
the end of 'Dad', for instance), and there have definitely been
responsibility issues ('Billy').
6. Secrets and Lies
Shamelessly stealing this one from Shanna's 'fun with forshadowing' post.
It's a good point, though; Angel hid the fact that Darla was pregnant,
Gunn had TOGOM, Cordy hid the effects of the visions, Fred didn't tell AI
she'd sent a letter to her parents, and Wes - well, Wes had 'Loyalty' and
'Sleep Tight'. Holtz didn't tell Justine what his real plan was. Sahjan
didn't tell Holtz what *his* real aim was. Makes you wonder what Lorne and
Groo are hiding...
And that's all I've got so far. So, how'd I do?
Niall
--
I am a fraction - a part of a broken man.
Mattia Valente
>>> >
>>> > Oh. So, like, the same reason you read TV guide synopsises
>>> > (synopses?) and watch promos, then?
>>>
>>> I'm managing to resist at the moment.
>>
>> Woo! Go you!
>
> 'Forgiving' kinda gave me confidence that it would be worth it.
:o)
And you're not caring too much about Buffy, so it's not too hard to resist
spoilers for that, then?
>>> Beyond the thing Tafka found in ata,
>>> which is kind of a "well, duh" spoiler (but don't read it,
>>> obviously), and
>>
>> Quite. Tell me if it's safe for me to read after next week's ep,
>> would ya?
>
> Unlikely, I would say. I wouldn't expect the thing it refers to to
> happen for another couple of weeks. I'll tell you what it is when it's
> happened.
>:-P
Grrrrr.....you've watched it now. Safe or not safe?
>>> Oh, except that there's a bad hair decision at some point.
>>
>> You say this like it *wasn't* always going to happen. I mean,
>> honestly, this is 'Angel' we're talking about.
>
> Well, true.
Like, totally.
> Incidentally, here's a list of season themes that I've been playing
> with. I can't be bothered to start a new thread. What d'you think of
> them?
...and this is not a non-seguitur how, exactly? Anyway..
> 1. Duty vs Desire
>
> The big one, as far as I'm concerned. The conflict between what you
> want to do and what you feel you should do. Gunn faced the dilemma in
> TOGOM, Fred did it in 'Fredless', Cordy in 'Birthday' and Wes in
> 'Sleep Tight' (although he didn't get much of a choice). 'Loyalty' is
> this theme in one episode. Holtz is this theme in one character.
Well, quite. And Gunn is still the dullest of the themey action stuff.
> 2. Free Will vs Destiny
>
> I only noticed this one recently, but there's actually been quite a
> lot this season about things that are 'meant to be' - and I'm not just
> talking about prophecies, although that's a big part of it. I get the
> feeling Fred's "evitable" speech in 'Offspring' may turn out to be
> important towards the end of the season (Angel: "No son of mine is
> gonna be trapped by some stinkin' prophecy!"). Then there's 'Birthday'
> and 'Waiting In the Wings', which are all about that sort of issue.
Yepparoo.
> 3. Love
>
> "Is this your idea of love, James? It isn't real unless it kills you?"
> "Yeah, what's yours? It's fun as long as it doesn't cost me anything?"
>
> Looking kinda prophetic now, isn't it? Anyway, there's a lot of lovin'
> going on this year. There are the various triangles in AI, there's
> Angel and Connor as compared with Holtz and his kids, there's whatever
> the hell that relationship between Justine and Holtz was...
Eeeevil. Again, though, I wonder how much is planned. I'm just hoping
Minear is kidding with us when he says he doesn't know what's happening in
S4 (alt.tv.angel post...hey, that's the first thing I check the three times
per year I bother reading anything there.)
> 4. Family
Ooer. But then, well, yeah. Been saying this myself, even.
> 5. Responsibility
>
> These two can be seen as subsidiary aspects of the 'duty vs desire'
> theme, I think. There's definitely been a family vibe this season
> ('Fredless' and the end of 'Dad', for instance), and there have
> definitely been responsibility issues ('Billy').
Yes.
> 6. Secrets and Lies
...as can this, in a sense. Of DvsD, I mean.
> Shamelessly stealing this one from Shanna's 'fun with forshadowing'
> post. It's a good point, though; Angel hid the fact that Darla was
> pregnant,
Uh....no. Angel hid the fact he boinked Darla. But I think that's what you
meant.
> Gunn had TOGOM,
Yeah...pity it wasn't as cool as it could've been.
> Cordy hid the effects of the visions, Fred
Since, like, sometime last year.
> didn't tell AI she'd sent a letter to her parents, and Wes - well, Wes
> had 'Loyalty' and 'Sleep Tight'. Holtz didn't tell Justine what his
> real plan was. Sahjan didn't tell Holtz what *his* real aim was. Makes
> you wonder what Lorne and Groo are hiding...
Dun dun duuuuuun.
> And that's all I've got so far. So, how'd I do?
Spiffily.
Mattia
Niall Harrison
Well...um...ah...actually, I know a couple things about _Buffy_. On the
plus side, it sounds like it would be hard for them to suck.
>>>> Beyond the thing Tafka found in ata,
>>>> which is kind of a "well, duh" spoiler (but don't read it,
>>>> obviously), and
>>>
>>> Quite. Tell me if it's safe for me to read after next week's ep,
>>> would ya?
>>
>> Unlikely, I would say. I wouldn't expect the thing it refers to to
>> happen for another couple of weeks. I'll tell you what it is when it's
>> happened.
>>:-P
>
> Grrrrr.....you've watched it now. Safe or not safe?
Not safe.
>> Incidentally, here's a list of season themes that I've been playing
>> with. I can't be bothered to start a new thread. What d'you think of
>> them?
>
> ...and this is not a non-seguitur how, exactly? Anyway..
Did I say it wasn't?
>> 3. Love
>>
>> "Is this your idea of love, James? It isn't real unless it kills you?"
>> "Yeah, what's yours? It's fun as long as it doesn't cost me anything?"
>>
>> Looking kinda prophetic now, isn't it? Anyway, there's a lot of lovin'
>> going on this year. There are the various triangles in AI, there's
>> Angel and Connor as compared with Holtz and his kids, there's whatever
>> the hell that relationship between Justine and Holtz was...
>
> Eeeevil. Again, though, I wonder how much is planned.
I think it's fair to assume that when they wrote 'Heartthrob' they knew
that (a) Angel would have a kid, and (b) Angel would lose that kid. I'm
not saying the above lines were written as deliberate forshadowing, but I
think they knew Angel would be grieving again later in the season.
> I'm just hoping
> Minear is kidding with us when he says he doesn't know what's happening in
> S4 (alt.tv.angel post...hey, that's the first thing I check the three times
> per year I bother reading anything there.)
They probably know what things are going to carry over from this season,
but I doubt they've got the arc sorted. I'm still wondering if the Blims
are going to show up again, personally. They could be fun.
Anyway, to the above add a 'vs friendship' as pointed out by Andrew on
umta. :-)
>> Shamelessly stealing this one from Shanna's 'fun with forshadowing'
>> post. It's a good point, though; Angel hid the fact that Darla was
>> pregnant,
>
> Uh....no. Angel hid the fact he boinked Darla. But I think that's what you
> meant.
Yep. Sorry, my bad.
>> Gunn had TOGOM,
>
> Yeah...pity it wasn't as cool as it could've been.
You're on a downer about Gunn today, aren't you?
>> Cordy hid the effects of the visions, Fred
>
> Since, like, sometime last year.
Still.
>> And that's all I've got so far. So, how'd I do?
>
> Spiffily.
Thank you kindly. Now go watch DoN, already.
Niall
--
My stars, it's full of gods...