BtVS 6.01 Bargaining (SPOILERS!)
Saskia®
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Sooooo, she's really alive...
I just finished watching it. Not too much to say about it really. Plenty of
tearjerking emotions flying around, with missing Buffy (enhanced by using
the Buffy bot), leaving Giles and the return of Buffy. I must say, hats off
to Sarah Michelle, she was just brilliant. Really excellent acting by her.
And Alyson too, This new mature witch thing seems to progressing and I'm
welcoming it with open arms, I was really getting a bit fed up with the 'oh
look at me I'm so cute and funny and fidgety'.
For the downloaders of Grace's encode: did you get the annoying noises too
in part one? It *looked* really excellent, much better than C00ki3's Angel.
--
Saskia
"I think they are getting ready to mate....
do you think they'd let me watch?"
(Phlox, Enterprise)
Mattia Valente
OH yes...
> I just finished watching it. Not too much to say about it really.
Oh? I could think of lots of things, but that would involve, well,
thinking. Ho hum. I liked it, for one. Good season premiere.
> Plenty of
> tearjerking emotions flying around, with missing Buffy (enhanced by using
> the Buffy bot), leaving Giles and the return of Buffy.
Indeed. Emotion after emotion this time 'round. *snif*. Giles.
> I must say, hats off
> to Sarah Michelle, she was just brilliant. Really excellent acting by her.
Yes!
> And Alyson too, This new mature witch thing seems to progressing and I'm
> welcoming it with open arms, I was really getting a bit fed up with the 'oh
> look at me I'm so cute and funny and fidgety'.
Very much agreed. It's kind of a shock, really; Anya being more grown
up, albeit slightly, Willow growing in a big, positive way (keep that
up...and, uh, you're scaring me occasionally. Whoa.) but the biggest
(positive) change was Tara, IMO. Grew a spine, apparently, and it's
going in the right direction. Good stuff, but I'm a little worried by
this whole big 'lotsa magic' thing. Hmm...where will they take that
next? We've talked about the danger of too much power.
Few more points: inside jokes, like the 'Grr Argh' from Tara, nice
touch, UPN is seemingly far less uptight about kissing (apparently), and
I'm getting annoyed already with W and T calling each other 'baby' all
the time. You need to come up with more funny pet names, beyond 'baby'
and the occasional 'honey'.
Overall, a good premiere, a nice kickoff to a new season. Perfect? No.
Coulda been better? I still need some closure on the whole Buffy can
close the portal thing, and is Dawn still the Key? she thinks not, but
is she right? Plenty of strangeness to deal with in upcoming eps; I'm
not looking for anything particularly funny for a good while, IMO it
would be out of place. Oh, and please, let's have Buffy deal with her
'coming back from the dead' thing a little longer than Angel did in S3,
shall we?
Furthermore, Joss is evil. When he said 'she's rotting in her grave as
we speak', he was not joking. That scene (among others) made me antsy.
Got all shivery from time to time, but then, hey, I'm a sap.
> For the downloaders of Grace's encode: did you get the annoying noises too
> in part one? It *looked* really excellent, much better than C00ki3's Angel.
Yes! Grace's audio has a clicking problem, this is known, she (I think
it's a she) doesn't know where it's coming from, but it's very
(quite..sometimes) annoying. The image quality was great, though, and
keep in mind she said herself that she wasn't too happy with the source
quality :-)
Mattia
--
"My beagle went swimming today and now he's typing on my keyboard with
his ample nose. Oh, and he's the bestest handsomeest beagle EVER."
--Tim Minear, Salon.com, May 2001
Saskia®
Like we were ever worried about that ;-)
> > I just finished watching it. Not too much to say about it really.
>
> Oh? I could think of lots of things, but that would involve, well,
> thinking. Ho hum. I liked it, for one. Good season premiere.
Hm, I thought it was pretty simple, not to mention predictable.
> Very much agreed. It's kind of a shock, really; Anya being more grown
> up, albeit slightly, Willow growing in a big, positive way (keep that
> up...and, uh, you're scaring me occasionally. Whoa.) but the biggest
> (positive) change was Tara, IMO. Grew a spine, apparently, and it's
> going in the right direction.
Huh? Did we see the same episode? Where did you see any more spine than in
last season (and I'm not talking about the last few eps). I still find her
pretty weird and lacking of any self confidence. I mean, the way she was
looking up to Spike in the beginning of the ep in the cemetary where she was
wondering if that vampire was on medication. The only times she shows any
maturity is when she's around Dawn.
> Good stuff, but I'm a little worried by
> this whole big 'lotsa magic' thing. Hmm...where will they take that
> next? We've talked about the danger of too much power.
Yeah. Should get interesting :)
> Few more points: inside jokes, like the 'Grr Argh' from Tara,
Oh yeah, liked that.
> I'm getting annoyed already with W and T calling each other 'baby' all
> the time. You need to come up with more funny pet names, beyond 'baby'
> and the occasional 'honey'.
I know... but then I'm not much of a fan of that relationship to begin with
so I'm not very objective.
> Overall, a good premiere, a nice kickoff to a new season. Perfect? No.
> Coulda been better? I still need some closure on the whole Buffy can
> close the portal thing, and is Dawn still the Key? she thinks not, but
> is she right? Plenty of strangeness to deal with in upcoming eps; I'm
> not looking for anything particularly funny for a good while, IMO it
> would be out of place. Oh, and please, let's have Buffy deal with her
> 'coming back from the dead' thing a little longer than Angel did in S3,
> shall we?
Agreed with all of the above.
> Furthermore, Joss is evil. When he said 'she's rotting in her grave as
> we speak', he was not joking. That scene (among others) made me antsy.
> Got all shivery from time to time, but then, hey, I'm a sap.
Ick indeeed!!!! Shees, give us some warning next time! Do bodies really
degrade that much in a few months? Yeuch.
> > For the downloaders of Grace's encode: did you get the annoying noises too
> > in part one? It *looked* really excellent, much better than C00ki3's Angel.
>
> Yes! Grace's audio has a clicking problem, this is known,
Oh? Known where? I didn't see any mention of it in abmbvs?
> she (I think
> it's a she) doesn't know where it's coming from, but it's very
> (quite..sometimes) annoying. The image quality was great, though, and
> keep in mind she said herself that she wasn't too happy with the source
> quality :-)
Promising!
Mattia Valente
Well, no, not really.
> > > I just finished watching it. Not too much to say about it really.
> >
> > Oh? I could think of lots of things, but that would involve, well,
> > thinking. Ho hum. I liked it, for one. Good season premiere.
>
> Hm, I thought it was pretty simple, not to mention predictable.
Perhaps, yes. I wasn't expecting any hooj twists at this point in time,
to be honest. For me, it's what they do next that will define things.
This ep(s) felt a lot like a pilot. Oh, and a few too many explosions
and fighty bits in part II. Big time 'ooh, yes, that means ratings!'
kind of feel.
> > Very much agreed. It's kind of a shock, really; Anya being more grown
> > up, albeit slightly, Willow growing in a big, positive way (keep that
> > up...and, uh, you're scaring me occasionally. Whoa.) but the biggest
> > (positive) change was Tara, IMO. Grew a spine, apparently, and it's
> > going in the right direction.
>
> Huh? Did we see the same episode?
Yes.
> Where did you see any more spine than in
> last season (and I'm not talking about the last few eps). I still find her
> pretty weird and lacking of any self confidence. I mean, the way she was
> looking up to Spike in the beginning of the ep in the cemetary where she was
> wondering if that vampire was on medication. The only times she shows any
> maturity is when she's around Dawn.
SHe's still insecure, but she's actually in the fray, and interacting,
and not stuttering like an idiot every time someone other than Willow
talks to her. She speaks up, she's part of the group, she's running
around trying to kill things, axes stuff. I call this a change. Maybe
it's just me. I'm not saying it's a big immediate change, but it's more
of a change than we saw throughout most of S5 (in the
people-who-are-not-willow dept.)
> > Good stuff, but I'm a little worried by
> > this whole big 'lotsa magic' thing. Hmm...where will they take that
> > next? We've talked about the danger of too much power.
>
> Yeah. Should get interesting :)
Indeed.
> > Few more points: inside jokes, like the 'Grr Argh' from Tara,
>
> Oh yeah, liked that.
Cracked me up...
> > I'm getting annoyed already with W and T calling each other 'baby' all
> > the time. You need to come up with more funny pet names, beyond 'baby'
> > and the occasional 'honey'.
>
> I know... but then I'm not much of a fan of that relationship to begin with
> so I'm not very objective.
It's not the relationship that bugs me, it's the whole koochy names that
are, well, cheese-like. Same issues as I have with the whole 'they've
never had a fight before' scene in Tough Love.
> > Overall, a good premiere, a nice kickoff to a new season. Perfect? No.
> > Coulda been better? I still need some closure on the whole Buffy can
> > close the portal thing, and is Dawn still the Key? she thinks not, but
> > is she right? Plenty of strangeness to deal with in upcoming eps; I'm
> > not looking for anything particularly funny for a good while, IMO it
> > would be out of place. Oh, and please, let's have Buffy deal with her
> > 'coming back from the dead' thing a little longer than Angel did in S3,
> > shall we?
>
> Agreed with all of the above.
How, well, boring. Fortunately it doesn't happen too much. Disagreement
will probably come when I do a proper review of the ep (whenever the
hell I do that...I have waaaay too much to do right now. A coupla
websites, an interview writeup, two book reviews, a job, and also this
thing called 'studying' :-)
> > Furthermore, Joss is evil. When he said 'she's rotting in her grave as
> > we speak', he was not joking. That scene (among others) made me antsy.
> > Got all shivery from time to time, but then, hey, I'm a sap.
>
> Ick indeeed!!!! Shees, give us some warning next time! Do bodies really
> degrade that much in a few months? Yeuch.
Yes. I thought she was quite well preserved. And that scene scared the
crap out of me. It's a phobia of mine. And Xander's apparently.
> > > For the downloaders of Grace's encode: did you get the annoying noises too
> > > in part one? It *looked* really excellent, much better than C00ki3's Angel.
> >
> > Yes! Grace's audio has a clicking problem, this is known,
>
> Oh? Known where? I didn't see any mention of it in abmbvs?
Well, Muffle and co were discussing it when she posted here sample
clips, a number of weeks ago. Unfortunately she apparently hasn't been
able to correct it :-(
> > she (I think
> > it's a she) doesn't know where it's coming from, but it's very
> > (quite..sometimes) annoying. The image quality was great, though, and
> > keep in mind she said herself that she wasn't too happy with the source
> > quality :-)
>
> Promising!
Yes. Now lets work on the audio.....
Dave M. Stork
Funky Spoiler space! Are you going for the title??? That's nkSF stuff.
:-)
>> > Sooooo, she's really alive...
>>
>> OH yes...
>
>Like we were ever worried about that ;-)
Well, I was.....
just kidding :-P
>> > I just finished watching it. Not too much to say about it really.
>>
>> Oh? I could think of lots of things, but that would involve, well,
>> thinking. Ho hum. I liked it, for one. Good season premiere.
>
>Hm, I thought it was pretty simple, not to mention predictable.
It was.
Surprising that AS Head was a special guest star... I knew he wanted
to go back to England (and start Ripper), but right now?
[Tara improves]
>
>Huh? Did we see the same episode? Where did you see any more spine than in
>last season (and I'm not talking about the last few eps). I still find her
>pretty weird and lacking of any self confidence. I mean, the way she was
>looking up to Spike in the beginning of the ep in the cemetary where she was
>wondering if that vampire was on medication. The only times she shows any
>maturity is when she's around Dawn.
She didn't stutter?
>> Good stuff, but I'm a little worried by
>> this whole big 'lotsa magic' thing. Hmm...where will they take that
>> next? We've talked about the danger of too much power.
>
>Yeah. Should get interesting :)
>
>> Few more points: inside jokes, like the 'Grr Argh' from Tara,
>
>Oh yeah, liked that.
My girlfriend and I simultaneouasly (sp???) pointed to the telly and
scared the crap out of friends who were watching with us. :-)
<knip>
>> Furthermore, Joss is evil. When he said 'she's rotting in her grave as
>> we speak', he was not joking. That scene (among others) made me antsy.
>> Got all shivery from time to time, but then, hey, I'm a sap.
>
>Ick indeeed!!!! Shees, give us some warning next time! Do bodies really
>degrade that much in a few months? Yeuch.
Mhhh, Mattia? Should we test that? Now, where do we get that
specimen??? Female prefferably...
<vebg>
--
Dave (now whatching 'Fool for Love' and remembering the almost
spoilering of Buffy movage.... Ah well).
Kom bij onze SETI@Home groep:
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/stats/team/team_82324.html
http://www.nksf.nl -- Voor de nl.kunst.sf+fantasy FAQ e.d.
Mattia Valente
DAVE!!!
> >> > Sooooo, she's really alive...
> >>
> >> OH yes...
> >
> >Like we were ever worried about that ;-)
>
> Well, I was.....
>
> just kidding :-P
Riiiight....
> >> > I just finished watching it. Not too much to say about it really.
> >>
> >> Oh? I could think of lots of things, but that would involve, well,
> >> thinking. Ho hum. I liked it, for one. Good season premiere.
> >
> >Hm, I thought it was pretty simple, not to mention predictable.
>
> It was.
In the end, yes, predictable. As in no particularly shockingly new and
strange things happen. Doesn't mean it's bad.
> Surprising that AS Head was a special guest star... I knew he wanted
> to go back to England (and start Ripper), but right now?
Yes. This we already knew: no more ASH in the creidts. AH too his place
with the 'AH as Willow' cred..
> [Tara improves]
> >Huh? Did we see the same episode? Where did you see any more spine than in
> >last season (and I'm not talking about the last few eps). I still find her
> >pretty weird and lacking of any self confidence. I mean, the way she was
> >looking up to Spike in the beginning of the ep in the cemetary where she was
> >wondering if that vampire was on medication. The only times she shows any
> >maturity is when she's around Dawn.
>
> She didn't stutter?
A lot less. And does all that other stuff I mentioned in the other
post..
> >> Few more points: inside jokes, like the 'Grr Argh' from Tara,
> >
> >Oh yeah, liked that.
>
> My girlfriend and I simultaneouasly (sp???) pointed to the telly and
> scared the crap out of friends who were watching with us. :-)
They're all "what? WHAT?!?!?"
> <knip>
> >> Furthermore, Joss is evil. When he said 'she's rotting in her grave as
> >> we speak', he was not joking. That scene (among others) made me antsy.
> >> Got all shivery from time to time, but then, hey, I'm a sap.
> >
> >Ick indeeed!!!! Shees, give us some warning next time! Do bodies really
> >degrade that much in a few months? Yeuch.
>
> Mhhh, Mattia? Should we test that? Now, where do we get that
> specimen??? Female prefferably...
Hehehehehehe........
Evol[tm], Dave...
Jonathan Black
> Mattia Valente said :
>
> > SaskiaŽ wrote:
I'd like to start by saying i think this is very cool spoiler
space. <looks at all the people who are resisting the temptation
to look under the spoilerspace> Don't you guys think this is
cool spoiler space? I do. Yes, it is, isn't it?
Now...
> > >
> > > S
> > > P
> > >
> > > O
> > > I
> > > L
> > > E
> > > R
> > > S
> > > P
> > > A
> > > C
> > >
> > > E
> > >
> > > A
> > > N
> > > D
> > >
> > > S
> > >
> > > O
> > > M
> > > E
> > > M
> > > O
> > > R
> > >
> > > E
> > >
> > > Sooooo, she's really alive...
Yes, Dawn is still alive. And a good thing too, if you ask me.
The little munchkin is too young to die.
> > OH yes...
>
> Like we were ever worried about that ;-)
Not really. Buffy saved her life by jumping for her at the end of
last season after all.
> > > I just finished watching it. Not too much to say about it
> > > really.
> >
> > Oh? I could think of lots of things, but that would
> > involve, well, thinking. Ho hum. I liked it, for one. Good
> > season premiere.
>
> Hm, I thought it was pretty simple, not to mention
> predictable.
Well Saskia, I'm inclined to say you sound a little harsh there,
but I must admit I can see what you mean to some degree.
I mean this episode had a lot of good stuff in it, perhaps a
little slow moving at times, but I don't think I really minded
that. It was just nice to finally have the gang back on our
screens again after four months, to see how they've been coping
with life, and then to learn about this plan they have for
bringing Buffy back. Plus the issue of Giles' departure, that was
all very nicely handled. I think basically the first half of the
episode I don't really have a problem with.
But then the second half, I don't really know where it went
wrong, but at the end of it all I was left feeling slightly
disappointed. I didn't like the hell's angels moterbike demons
very much, I thought they were a bit of a lame choice for this
episodes main baddies. And in the end the bringing back of Buffy
just seemed a bit too easy and disappointing and it all seemed to
go on for too long without too much happening in the end. I guess
what I'm saying seems is it was just missing that magic Joss
Whedon touch that the best episodes always have. Now I know he
wasn't writing or directing here, but I ask you why not, for
heaven's sakes? Those are the best eps dammit!
(Maybe I'm ranting a little here. Bear in mind it's like 0730 in
the morning as I'm typing this.)
Oh well, to coin a classic jonathaN phrase, perhaps I just need
to rewatch it.
> > Few more points: inside jokes, like the 'Grr Argh' from
> > Tara,
>
> Oh yeah, liked that.
That certainly got a laugh out of me, at 0400 in the morning. I
guess this means in a year's time or so, the phrase Grrr Argh may
finally be heard on Dutch TV.
Okay, now before I go, I'd just like to throw in some less deep
points.
Alyson H: she is looking fantastic! A very pleasant surprise
there, cause personally I thought she looked awful in het S6
promo photo from a few weeks ago. She has finally done the right
thing with her hair and in my book is looking the best here that
she has done since S3. And, while it's sad to see Mr Head leave
the opening credits, it is very cool to see Alyson take his place
with the "and/as" credit.
Amber B: she is looking fantastic! Put this woman in the opening
credits please!
Emma C: she is looking fantastic (and her character kept cracking
me up with her every word).
Michelle T: this young lady is fan-tas-tic! Go ahead and give her
her own show! Ahum.
Sarah M G: I'm withholding judgement until she's has a chance to
brush her hair.
Bye,
--
jonathaN
Saskia®
> Saskia® wrote:
> > Mattia Valente said :
>
> I'd like to start by saying i think this is very cool spoiler
> space. <looks at all the people who are resisting the temptation
> to look under the spoilerspace> Don't you guys think this is
> cool spoiler space? I do. Yes, it is, isn't it?
Why thank you!
:P
> > Hm, I thought it was pretty simple, not to mention
> > predictable.
>
> Well Saskia, I'm inclined to say you sound a little harsh there,
> but I must admit I can see what you mean to some degree.
Harsh? That wasn't harsh. Harsh would be saying the episode sucked ass or
something to that effect. I was just stating the truth ;) I mean, come on, I
can tell you the story that was told in 2 hours in a few sentences :
- Giles left (tears)
- everybody's sad about Buffy's death and they try to keep fighting the bad
guys with the help of Buffybot (more tears)
- so they brought Buffy back
- of course something must to go wrong (biker demons) but not too wrong
(Buffy is alive) (even more tears)
> what I'm saying seems is it was just missing that magic Joss
> Whedon touch that the best episodes always have. Now I know he
> wasn't writing or directing here, but I ask you why not, for
> heaven's sakes? Those are the best eps dammit!
Yes, I agree. The first part was promising, but the second part was
disappointing.
> Alyson H: she is looking fantastic! A very pleasant surprise
> there, cause personally I thought she looked awful in het S6
> promo photo from a few weeks ago. She has finally done the right
> thing with her hair and in my book is looking the best here that
> she has done since S3. And, while it's sad to see Mr Head leave
> the opening credits, it is very cool to see Alyson take his place
> with the "and/as" credit.
Yes, I was pleased with Alyson. But I already said that.
> Amber B: she is looking fantastic! Put this woman in the opening
> credits please!
Not there yet, so no credits-mentioning from me, yet. But I already said
that.
> Emma C: she is looking fantastic (and her character kept cracking
> me up with her every word).
Yes. Liked her heeps, as always.
> Michelle T: this young lady is fan-tas-tic! Go ahead and give her
> her own show! Ahum.
Ahum... the main reason I like Dawn is because she brings out good stuff in
Buffy.
> Sarah M G: I'm withholding judgement until she's has a chance to
> brush her hair.
She was most definitely my favorite in this episode. Absolutely *brilliant*.
But I already said that.
Spike : hmmm, getting there, veeeeery modestly. He loved the way those
demons were thrashing the neighbourhood and for a second there, we saw a
glimmer of good old Spikey. Keeping my fingers crossed, because having to
watch him babysit Dawn for another whole season would kill me.
Mattia Valente
>
> Jonathan Black said :
> > SaskiaŽ wrote:
> > > Mattia Valente said :
> >
> > I'd like to start by saying i think this is very cool spoiler
> > space. <looks at all the people who are resisting the temptation
> > to look under the spoilerspace> Don't you guys think this is
> > cool spoiler space? I do. Yes, it is, isn't it?
>
> Why thank you!
And I'd like to say: What Jon said. This spoilerspace ROCKS ASS!!
Hehehe....he's not quite with it, is he?
> > > Hm, I thought it was pretty simple, not to mention
> > > predictable.
> >
> > Well Saskia, I'm inclined to say you sound a little harsh there,
> > but I must admit I can see what you mean to some degree.
>
> Harsh? That wasn't harsh.
Not very. A little, perhaps. But not much at all.
> Harsh would be saying the episode sucked ass or
> something to that effect. I was just stating the truth ;) I mean, come on, I
> can tell you the story that was told in 2 hours in a few sentences :
> - Giles left (tears)
> - everybody's sad about Buffy's death and they try to keep fighting the bad
> guys with the help of Buffybot (more tears)
> - so they brought Buffy back
> - of course something must to go wrong (biker demons) but not too wrong
> (Buffy is alive) (even more tears)
Well, OK. Yes. Emotional it was, definately (As well as plotbunny-ish at
some points, withe the plotbunnies rolling in on motorbikes and smashing
stuff..) and that's what worked for. Predictable, pretty much. There was
a tendency to play the emotion heavily in this episode; go for the
character's reactions. The surprise didn't so much come from the viewer,
who pretty much knew what was going on everywhere, but vicariously,
through the characters on screen, through their reactions. And
fortunately, about 99% of the time, the performances pulled that off.
This said, I did get a few nice little shocks/jolts in here (Willow,
Bambi. Willow, Spell. Willow and Tara, Magic levels. Buffy, Rotting.
That sort of thing..) but they weren't the 'main feature'.
> > what I'm saying seems is it was just missing that magic Joss
> > Whedon touch that the best episodes always have. Now I know he
> > wasn't writing or directing here, but I ask you why not, for
> > heaven's sakes? Those are the best eps dammit!
>
> Yes, I agree. The first part was promising, but the second part was
> disappointing.
Noxon delivered, and David Fury got a little carried away, again, like
he did with 'Primeval'. The first part was, basically, good. Well paced,
funny yet touching at the same time, good showcase, but the second part?
Parts of it were excellent, parts of it I loved, but there was entirely
too much crap going on with Biker Demons. Too much screen time for
destruction.
> > Alyson H: she is looking fantastic! A very pleasant surprise
> > there, cause personally I thought she looked awful in het S6
> > promo photo from a few weeks ago. She has finally done the right
> > thing with her hair and in my book is looking the best here that
> > she has done since S3. And, while it's sad to see Mr Head leave
> > the opening credits, it is very cool to see Alyson take his place
> > with the "and/as" credit.
>
> Yes, I was pleased with Alyson. But I already said that.
Yep.
> > Amber B: she is looking fantastic! Put this woman in the opening
> > credits please!
>
> Not there yet, so no credits-mentioning from me, yet. But I already said
> that.
Yep.
> > Emma C: she is looking fantastic (and her character kept cracking
> > me up with her every word).
>
> Yes. Liked her heeps, as always.
Heeps? Hehehe...Anya's getting better and better. More human by the day,
but not too much so.
> > Michelle T: this young lady is fan-tas-tic! Go ahead and give her
> > her own show! Ahum.
>
> Ahum... the main reason I like Dawn is because she brings out good stuff in
> Buffy.
Mwah..
> > Sarah M G: I'm withholding judgement until she's has a chance to
> > brush her hair.
>
> She was most definitely my favorite in this episode. Absolutely *brilliant*.
> But I already said that.
Yes! Her BuffyBot performances were great, and her return...Broody Buffy
rocks. Let's do some of that 'I was dead but am no more' brooding thing.
> Spike : hmmm, getting there, veeeeery modestly. He loved the way those
> demons were thrashing the neighbourhood and for a second there, we saw a
> glimmer of good old Spikey. Keeping my fingers crossed, because having to
> watch him babysit Dawn for another whole season would kill me.
I like how the handled the Spike situation. I was getting antsy and
worried for a moment, with the sappy nice guy thing on the couch in part
I, but that turned out for the best with his show of emotionality. That
scene worked for me. And yes, of course, that little glimmer of 'looks
like fun'. Still there, thank god. I wonder what's going to happen when
he finds out Buffy's back...
Andrea!
Dave said:
> Saskia® <sas...@nksf.nl> wrote:
>
> >Mattia Valente said :
> >
I think I would have liked it if they'd postponed Buffy's return for another
ep or so. I really liked the Buffybot, and it would have been fun seeing
more of her, IMO. Also, *not* bringing Buffy back in the pilot would
probably have made me worry more, and worry is *good*. About tv series I
mean. RL worrying isn't that much fun.
>
> >> > I just finished watching it. Not too much to say about it really.
> >>
> >> Oh? I could think of lots of things, but that would involve, well,
> >> thinking. Ho hum. I liked it, for one. Good season premiere.
> >
> >Hm, I thought it was pretty simple, not to mention predictable.
>
> It was.
This is so weird. I really, *really* liked this ep, and it must be the first
time since godknowswhen that you guys didn't like it *better* than I did.
>
> Surprising that AS Head was a special guest star... I knew he wanted
> to go back to England (and start Ripper), but right now?
I hated to see him leave. :(
>
> [Tara improves]
> >
> >Huh? Did we see the same episode? Where did you see any more spine than
in
> >last season (and I'm not talking about the last few eps). I still find
her
> >pretty weird and lacking of any self confidence. I mean, the way she was
> >looking up to Spike in the beginning of the ep in the cemetary where she
was
> >wondering if that vampire was on medication. The only times she shows any
> >maturity is when she's around Dawn.
>
> She didn't stutter?
Yep. She looked way more confident, and she looked way *better* than she did
in S5! Okay, her ears still do the 'Hello I am Tara's ear! Look at me!'
thing, but at least they don't keep popping out of her hair like they used
to.
>
> >> Good stuff, but I'm a little worried by
> >> this whole big 'lotsa magic' thing. Hmm...where will they take that
> >> next? We've talked about the danger of too much power.
> >
> >Yeah. Should get interesting :)
I thought the magic was cool. And Willow was *so* impressive standing there
doing the hover view thing.
> >
> >> Few more points: inside jokes, like the 'Grr Argh' from Tara,
> >
> >Oh yeah, liked that.
:)
>
> My girlfriend and I simultaneouasly (sp???) pointed to the telly and
> scared the crap out of friends who were watching with us. :-)
>
> <knip>
> >> Furthermore, Joss is evil. When he said 'she's rotting in her grave as
> >> we speak', he was not joking. That scene (among others) made me antsy.
> >> Got all shivery from time to time, but then, hey, I'm a sap.
Bet the BBC wil cut that scene.
> >
> >Ick indeeed!!!! Shees, give us some warning next time! Do bodies really
> >degrade that much in a few months? Yeuch.
>
> Mhhh, Mattia? Should we test that? Now, where do we get that
> specimen??? Female prefferably...
You sick people you. I feared it wouldn't be long before people started
considering dead-Buffy/someone fic, but I hadn't expected it would be the
two of you.
Andrea!
Saskia®
DAVE!!! What a surprise! :-))
> Saskia® <sas...@nksf.nl> wrote:
> >Mattia Valente said :
:-)) I was kinda hoping for an abe titel ;-) [1]
> >> Furthermore, Joss is evil. When he said 'she's rotting in her grave as
> >> we speak', he was not joking. That scene (among others) made me antsy.
> >> Got all shivery from time to time, but then, hey, I'm a sap.
> >
> >Ick indeeed!!!! Shees, give us some warning next time! Do bodies really
> >degrade that much in a few months? Yeuch.
>
> Mhhh, Mattia? Should we test that? Now, where do we get that
> specimen??? Female prefferably...
>
> <vebg>
Yuck Dave. You have a dead female lying around?
I just realized that Mattia was probably referring to something else than
me. I was talking about that creepy buffy skeleton, but I guess Mattia was
referring to the being buried alive experience, which was pretty horrible as
well. Or weren't you M?
--
Saskia
[1] SpoilerspaceMistress [tm]
Mattia Valente
>
> Dave M. Stork said :
>
> DAVE!!! What a surprise! :-))
>
OK. You gave it to yourself, so I'll confirm it. I hereby dub the
SpoilerSpaceMistress[tm]
> > >> Furthermore, Joss is evil. When he said 'she's rotting in her grave as
> > >> we speak', he was not joking. That scene (among others) made me antsy.
> > >> Got all shivery from time to time, but then, hey, I'm a sap.
> > >
> > >Ick indeeed!!!! Shees, give us some warning next time! Do bodies really
> > >degrade that much in a few months? Yeuch.
> >
> > Mhhh, Mattia? Should we test that? Now, where do we get that
> > specimen??? Female prefferably...
> >
> > <vebg>
>
> Yuck Dave. You have a dead female lying around?
Dave's a biologist. They're worse than medical students. Basically,
they're really good at killing things. Kinda like slayers that way..
> I just realized that Mattia was probably referring to something else than
> me. I was talking about that creepy buffy skeleton, but I guess Mattia was
> referring to the being buried alive experience, which was pretty horrible as
> well. Or weren't you M?
Well, both. The 'eww' thing and the Jossness of it all was definately a
reflection on the decayed skeleton that was Buffy before she ended up
alive in the coffin, which was oh so disturbing. BTW, in case you're all
forgetful, this is one of her worst nightmares. Remember nightmares?
With Giles losing his slayer (which happened)? And with Buffy dreaming
of waking up in a coffin, being buried alive? This was, perhaps, worse
for her than for the average person..then again, it's quite terrible,
whichever way you look at it *brrr*
Mattia Valente
Perhaps. But you wouldn't have the big bombastic season opener that UPN
sorta wanted, I think. Then again, there's plenty left to deal with.
> I really liked the Buffybot, and it would have been fun seeing
> more of her, IMO.
Whoa...that's...a first. More or less. Most people were annoyed by the
bot. Me, not too much so. Didn't love the bot to bits, but the bot was
funny, and the reactions she brought out in the gang were very
interesting, and revealing. Especially Dawn, who seems to still be in
total denial, using the Bot as her surrogate sister..
> Also, *not* bringing Buffy back in the pilot would
> probably have made me worry more, and worry is *good*. About tv series I
> mean. RL worrying isn't that much fun.
Well, yes, perhaps. But that was, seemingly, too dark for most. Would've
been fun if the spell did fail, though. Although having it succeed later
would've cheapened the first failure a little. Or not, if the price were
much, much higher.
Interesting to note: you call it a pilot, not a premiere, which I think
is pretty accurate. It does feel, in many ways, like a new beginning.
Let's hope this is a good thing.
> > >> > I just finished watching it. Not too much to say about it really.
> > >>
> > >> Oh? I could think of lots of things, but that would involve, well,
> > >> thinking. Ho hum. I liked it, for one. Good season premiere.
> > >
> > >Hm, I thought it was pretty simple, not to mention predictable.
> >
> > It was.
>
> This is so weird. I really, *really* liked this ep, and it must be the first
> time since godknowswhen that you guys didn't like it *better* than I did.
:o)
I think I like it about as much as you do. A few too many explosions and
fights, the Demon Bikers were a little too OTT (but didn't really manage
to bother me in a big way..) but emotionally, it worked. All the
characters' reactions felt real, the acting was top notch, and overall,
it was a nice way to kick off a new season, a good continuation of the
end of S5.
> > Surprising that AS Head was a special guest star... I knew he wanted
> > to go back to England (and start Ripper), but right now?
>
> I hated to see him leave. :(
*snif*
But what a beautiful scene.
> > [Tara improves]
> > >
> > >Huh? Did we see the same episode? Where did you see any more spine than
> > >inlast season (and I'm not talking about the last few eps). I still find
> > >herpretty weird and lacking of any self confidence. I mean, the way she
> > >waslooking up to Spike in the beginning of the ep in the cemetary where
> > >she was wondering if that vampire was on medication. The only times she
> > >shows any maturity is when she's around Dawn.
> >
> > She didn't stutter?
>
> Yep. She looked way more confident, and she looked way *better* than she did
> in S5! Okay, her ears still do the 'Hello I am Tara's ear! Look at me!'
> thing, but at least they don't keep popping out of her hair like they used
> to.
ROTFLMAO!!!!
Phew...that was good....hehe...thanks for that.
And, uh, 'cept for the ear thing, I agree. Willow's also lookin' really
good (wow, that was shallow..)
> > >> Good stuff, but I'm a little worried by
> > >> this whole big 'lotsa magic' thing. Hmm...where will they take that
> > >> next? We've talked about the danger of too much power.
> > >
> > >Yeah. Should get interesting :)
>
> I thought the magic was cool. And Willow was *so* impressive standing there
> doing the hover view thing.
Oh yes. Loved the teaser!
> > >> Few more points: inside jokes, like the 'Grr Argh' from Tara,
> > >
> > >Oh yeah, liked that.
>
> :)
Klassieker. Same met "Cup of tea, cup of tea, cup of tea, almost got
shagged, cup of tea, cup of tea." Of de EBay line, en de speciale
Backstreet Boys lunchbox.
> > >> Furthermore, Joss is evil. When he said 'she's rotting in her grave as
> > >> we speak', he was not joking. That scene (among others) made me antsy.
> > >> Got all shivery from time to time, but then, hey, I'm a sap.
>
> Bet the BBC wil cut that scene.
Oh, most like. They'll have a snipperfest with this, I guess. I was a
little dissapointed they didn't air the show in widescreen, to be
honest. Angel is doing it on the WB, we know Buffy exists in WS (BBC),
and Enterprise is doing it, so...
> > >Ick indeeed!!!! Shees, give us some warning next time! Do bodies really
> > >degrade that much in a few months? Yeuch.
> >
> > Mhhh, Mattia? Should we test that? Now, where do we get that
> > specimen??? Female prefferably...
>
> You sick people you. I feared it wouldn't be long before people started
> considering dead-Buffy/someone fic, but I hadn't expected it would be the
> two of you.
Oh! Ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew....that's worse than
the Buffy/Dawn fic I've sent to George (but not read..)
P@rick
>
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Nice spoilerspace :)
> Sooooo, she's really alive...
Which wasn't really a big surprise, especially if you'd seen the UPN
promo's. That wasn't Buffy ordering five beer for her new friends in the
underworld.
Well they really didn't make Buffy's return a cheap event, literally in
Willow's case. Maybe it isn't the most original and creative story
they've come up with, but they could have done much much worse as well.
And I'm really glad Buffy didn't jump out of her grave ready to fight
the demons and firing away fresh puns. She literally had to dig her way
out of there, just like vampires do. Well she's both been there and done
that in Nightmares of course, but it's still a pretty 'rotten'
experience. I still wonder how it's possible though. As soon as you
break open the coffin the dirt rumbles in I would say. And pretty soon
oxygen's becoming a problem (well, not for vampires of course).
And I also wonder what really brought Buffy back. Was it Willow's magick
(actually Osiris) or did TPTB play a role in it as well? And if they
didn't, how do they feel about Buffy's unscheduled return? If they
didn't bring her back themselves, maybe they didn't want her back.
And some more questions: where has Buffy been, was she aware of where
she was and does she remember. Right now there are all sorts of reasons
for Buffy to act like a zombie and be silent. She acts on instincts
right now: self-defense, protecting her friends, protecting her sister.
But that's about it for now. She's not in as bad a shape as Angel was in
early season 3 (actually she's in pretty good shape, might have grown a
bit stronger in the process), but she's far from being the old Buffy.
And right now the question is to what extent she ever will be. It's
really gonna be interesting to see how that develops, how she reacts to
Dawn and to her friends. And I bet Buffy's got a whole lot of
interesting stories to tell about her trip.
Willow was really great this ep. Not only did she look (season3-)great,
but she really took charge and seemed to be in control of things. The
magick she used to bring Buffy back will no doubt have their
repercussions, along with the dark magic she used in S5. She handled
life-after-Buffy really well, as did the rest of the gang. They showed
Giles that they are mature and wise enough to take care of themselves,
which must have given him at least some peace of mind. Although I wonder
how long they'd survive in Sunnydale, even without a gang of motorcycle
demon raiding the town. Luckily we don't have to find out.
One really good thing about this ep: the Buffybot is gone for good! Man,
I really didn't like that thing. I never liked the use of near-perfect
robots built by some kid. Especially when that robot is so strong an
perfect that it can replace Buffy for a couple of months without anyone
noticing it.
The scene where Dawn cuddles up to the Buffybot reminded me of an
experiment where they replaced an infant-monkey's mother with a not
particularly similar looking doll which did have the 'same' soft fur.
Everytime the infant sensed danger and wanted shelter, it'd hold on to
its substitute-mother's fur just like he would with his real mother. It
was all about feeling safe rather than really being safe.
But now she has the real thing to hold on to again. It may take a while
before Buffy starts talking back, but maybe Dawn really doesn't mind
that ;) In two eps things are set in motion again. And the good thing is
that I'm really curious to see where this is going.
> For the downloaders of Grace's encode: did you get the annoying noises too
> in part one? It *looked* really excellent, much better than C00ki3's Angel.
I had that, yeah. And the sound wasn't in sync with the picture as well.
But it was very much watchable (is that even a word?).
Bye, Patrick
P@rick
> >
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> UPN is seemingly far less uptight about kissing (apparently)
So I noticed. And again it really came out of the blue and was just the
most normal thing in the world. Of course it would have been strange if
UPN had promoted Buffy's big return and arrival on their network by
promoting the hell out of the GREAT ON-SCREEN LESBIAN KISS!!!! ;)
> I'm getting annoyed already with W and T calling each other 'baby' all
> the time. You need to come up with more funny pet names, beyond 'baby'
> and the occasional 'honey'.
No they don't. As long as they say it while lying all nekkid in bed
together it's perfectly fine ;) I'm just a sucker for their sugar sweet
relationship and I love those tokens of affection to bits. Though I've
mentioned here before that I'd like to see some more spice in their
relationship, maybe continueing where they left off in Tough Love.
Bye, Patrick
Smola
Buffybot is the best. I wanna see a whole new show about her/it.
--
in every generation there is a chosen one
P@rick
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> Amber B: she is looking fantastic! Put this woman in the opening
> credits please!
I read yesterday in an interview with Amber that she chose not to be ar
regular in Buffy. She's not really after a carreer in television, so she
wants to be able to do other stuff than Buffy (which she loves to do
btw) like writing and acting/directing movies. Whether it was really her
choice not to become a regular or Joss', fact is that she won't appear
in the credits any time soon and probably never.
Bye, Patrick
Saskia
> >ep or so. I really liked the Buffybot, and it would have been fun seeing
> >more of her,
>
> Buffybot is the best. I wanna see a whole new show about her/it.
I have to agree. Buffybot was really cool and I liked it a *lot*. Real shame
she's been torn apart...
--
Saskia
Smola
>Smola said :
>> On Sat, 06 Oct 2001 18:25:54 GMT, "Andrea!" <and...@nksf.nl> wrote:
>> >Dave said:
>> >> Saskia® <sas...@nksf.nl> wrote:
>> >> >Mattia Valente said :
I would be satisfied with simple Buffybot cartoon, maybe a
pornographic one! ;-))
Mattia Valente
Hehehe...
> Well they really didn't make Buffy's return a cheap event, literally in
> Willow's case. Maybe it isn't the most original and creative story
> they've come up with, but they could have done much much worse as well.
Agreed. I don't know what I was expecting, but, being a bit of a very
pessimistic optimist (go figure..) I was pleased with the outcome.
> And I'm really glad Buffy didn't jump out of her grave ready to fight
> the demons and firing away fresh puns. She literally had to dig her way
> out of there, just like vampires do. Well she's both been there and done
> that in Nightmares of course, but it's still a pretty 'rotten'
> experience.
Yes. Thanks for the punnage. And, of course, agreed. I'm interested in
where they'll take it from here, though. Could get very interesting, and
should, too. IMO.
> I still wonder how it's possible though. As soon as you
> break open the coffin the dirt rumbles in I would say. And pretty soon
> oxygen's becoming a problem (well, not for vampires of course).
She wasn't buried very deep. Much like most other people in Sunnydale,
just below the surface. As to the 'is it possible', well, slayer
strength and an extra dose of adrenaline seemed to do the trick.
> And I also wonder what really brought Buffy back. Was it Willow's magick
> (actually Osiris) or did TPTB play a role in it as well? And if they
> didn't, how do they feel about Buffy's unscheduled return? If they
> didn't bring her back themselves, maybe they didn't want her back.
I personally doubt TPTB are involved, if only for the fact that they've
never been mentionied directly on Buffy, and probably never will be.
They brought Angel back, apparently, but Buffy dying in the first place
and being resurrected (PG) probably wasn't part of the 'plan' either. Or
maybe it was. Do they care about her unscheduled return, even?
Apparently she's still got Slayer Strength.
> And some more questions: where has Buffy been, was she aware of where
> she was and does she remember. Right now there are all sorts of reasons
> for Buffy to act like a zombie and be silent. She acts on instincts
> right now: self-defense, protecting her friends, protecting her sister.
She's definately reacting, not acting. Deeply traumatized, shocked. 'Is
this Hell' is a line that bodes well for plot, and ominously for
exposition. Interesting..
> But that's about it for now. She's not in as bad a shape as Angel was in
> early season 3 (actually she's in pretty good shape, might have grown a
> bit stronger in the process), but she's far from being the old Buffy.
Indeed. Remember that Angel went to hell, and has an inner demon as
well. And that in the end, he still reacted on instinct, protecting
Buffy.
> And right now the question is to what extent she ever will be. It's
> really gonna be interesting to see how that develops, how she reacts to
> Dawn and to her friends. And I bet Buffy's got a whole lot of
> interesting stories to tell about her trip.
Uh-huh.
> Willow was really great this ep. Not only did she look (season3-)great,
> but she really took charge and seemed to be in control of things. The
> magick she used to bring Buffy back will no doubt have their
> repercussions, along with the dark magic she used in S5. She handled
> life-after-Buffy really well, as did the rest of the gang.
Yes. Although Willow's seeming flippancy about the dark arts usage, her
'I'll do whatever must be done' attitude is a little worrying, perhaps.
She's none too open about what she's doing. Interesting.
> They showed
> Giles that they are mature and wise enough to take care of themselves,
Well, 'wise'? Only because they didn't tell Giles about their perhaps
not-so-wise plan.
> which must have given him at least some peace of mind. Although I wonder
> how long they'd survive in Sunnydale, even without a gang of motorcycle
> demon raiding the town. Luckily we don't have to find out.
:-)
> One really good thing about this ep: the Buffybot is gone for good! Man,
> I really didn't like that thing. I never liked the use of near-perfect
> robots built by some kid. Especially when that robot is so strong an
> perfect that it can replace Buffy for a couple of months without anyone
> noticing it.
Hehe...
> The scene where Dawn cuddles up to the Buffybot reminded me of an
> experiment where they replaced an infant-monkey's mother with a not
> particularly similar looking doll which did have the 'same' soft fur.
> Everytime the infant sensed danger and wanted shelter, it'd hold on to
> its substitute-mother's fur just like he would with his real mother. It
> was all about feeling safe rather than really being safe.
Very interesting reaction. Dawn was stuck in denial, after all that
time. Still didn't/couldn't really accept that Buffy was really gone,
and used the Bot as a replacement. Could also be considered bargaining
(stages of grief) when looked at in a certain way.
> But now she has the real thing to hold on to again. It may take a while
> before Buffy starts talking back, but maybe Dawn really doesn't mind
> that ;) In two eps things are set in motion again. And the good thing is
> that I'm really curious to see where this is going.
Yep.
> > For the downloaders of Grace's encode: did you get the annoying noises too
> > in part one? It *looked* really excellent, much better than C00ki3's Angel.
>
> I had that, yeah. And the sound wasn't in sync with the picture as well.
Didn't notice the out of synchness, to be honest.
> But it was very much watchable (is that even a word?).
Sort of ;-)
Mattia Valente
Yes. It only struck me because I heard the story of the hassle the WB
made about the kiss in 'The Body'.
> Of course it would have been strange if
> UPN had promoted Buffy's big return and arrival on their network by
> promoting the hell out of the GREAT ON-SCREEN LESBIAN KISS!!!! ;)
Erm....riiiight.
> > I'm getting annoyed already with W and T calling each other 'baby' all
> > the time. You need to come up with more funny pet names, beyond 'baby'
> > and the occasional 'honey'.
>
> No they don't. As long as they say it while lying all nekkid in bed
> together it's perfectly fine ;)
:-p
But they're not, so it's a little annoying.
> I'm just a sucker for their sugar sweet
> relationship and I love those tokens of affection to bits. Though I've
> mentioned here before that I'd like to see some more spice in their
> relationship, maybe continueing where they left off in Tough Love.
Right. It's still too wuvy duvy, and if I'm saying this, it must be.
P@rick
> "P@rick" wrote:
> >
> > >
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> > They showed
> > Giles that they are mature and wise enough to take care of themselves,
>
> Well, 'wise'? Only because they didn't tell Giles about their perhaps
> not-so-wise plan.
Yeah, okay maybe that wasn't too wise. But wise and mature people tend
to do not-so-wise things as well ;)
A thing I realised today: none of the entire gang has a normal set of
parents. Buffy and Dawn no longer have a mother and their father is
anywhere but in Sunnydale, Willow's parents have always been absent at
best, Tara only has a father left but probably won't see him ever again,
and Anya's parents are long dead. And while Xander's parents are far
from rolemodels when it comes to parenting, he comes closest of all to
having normal parents. In a way they are all orphans who have only each
other as family. Maybe that's what Family really was about. They all
stood up for Tara not only because they like her (and what's there not
to like) but also because they know how much family and parents in
particular can suck.
> Could also be considered bargaining (stages of grief) when looked at in
> a certain way.
Yeah, what was the title all about? What meaning of the word bargaining
am I missing here. Bargaining stands for stages of grief?
> > I had that, yeah. And the sound wasn't in sync with the picture as well.
>
> Didn't notice the out of synchness, to be honest.
Maybe it's just my version then, maybe something went wrong burning it
(although I only burned at 2x, should be okay).
Bye, Patrick
Marc
"P@rick" <pat...@nksfVampWillow.nl> schreef in bericht
news:MPG.162b7b138...@news.easynews.com...
Giles will be missed, even more then Angel. He was Buffy's Watcher and I
kinda liked the guy with his trembling gestures and his taking of glasses
and "let me think". I guess Willow is going to replace him - as she has
always been helpfull and (as been seen in S5) fully capable.
<snip>
>
>
> > Could also be considered bargaining (stages of grief) when looked at in
> > a certain way.
>
> Yeah, what was the title all about? What meaning of the word bargaining
> am I missing here. Bargaining stands for stages of grief?
That's my question too actually! If it stand for stages of grief then
everybody was in a different stage: Willow sure hasn't accepted Buffy's
dead - Giles has en blaims (sp?) himself for a big part and Xander - well, I
think he kinda dealt with the whole Buffy-being-dead thing and it's time to
move on. More interesting was how Spike got big brother for Dawn, even
surpressing his evilness when he saw the demons trashing Sunnydale and had
this moment of "Oh - now *that* seems like fun"
>
> > > I had that, yeah. And the sound wasn't in sync with the picture as
well.
> >
> > Didn't notice the out of synchness, to be honest.
For the record: I had a 400MB download - everything was in sync, but the
quality of the screen wasn't always that...good
Marc
Mattia Valente
Yep. But he will get his own spinoff as well. Not a 22 eps per season
type spinoff though. And, well, stuff....it was very right for Angel to
leave at that point in time. Giles, OTOH...
> He was Buffy's Watcher and I
> kinda liked the guy with his trembling gestures and his taking of glasses
> and "let me think". I guess Willow is going to replace him - as she has
> always been helpfull and (as been seen in S5) fully capable.
As an 'exposition gal', perhaps. Overall? He's irreplacable. ASH had
(has, sorry) a screen presence that's quite formidable, great onscreen
chemistry with the whole lot of them, and we will definately miss him. A
lot.
> <snip>
> > > Could also be considered bargaining (stages of grief) when looked at in
> > > a certain way.
> >
> > Yeah, what was the title all about? What meaning of the word bargaining
> > am I missing here. Bargaining stands for stages of grief?
>
> That's my question too actually! If it stand for stages of grief then
> everybody was in a different stage: Willow sure hasn't accepted Buffy's
> dead - Giles has en blaims (sp?) himself for a big part and Xander - well, I
> think he kinda dealt with the whole Buffy-being-dead thing and it's time to
> move on. More interesting was how Spike got big brother for Dawn, even
> surpressing his evilness when he saw the demons trashing Sunnydale and had
> this moment of "Oh - now *that* seems like fun"
OK, some basic explanation seems to be in order. I'm no expert on this
subject, but I'll try..I was gonna save this for my actual review, but
hey, that can always enter there anyway ;-) Elizabeth Kubler Ross, who
did large amounts of work on people's coping with grief, loss, and death
(books include "On Death and Dying", which I have not read, but
still...) distinguishes 5 basic stages in coping with loss/grief:
1. Denial
2. Anger/Rage
3. Bargaining and Self-Blame
4. Depression
5. Acceptance.
Not all people go through all stages, and in later stages signs of
earlier stages are often present. Denial and rage are relatively self
explanatory, I should think. Depression and Acceptance, ditto. The
middle one, Bargaining and Self Blame, now there's the wonky strange
one.
Bargaining often entails a lot of 'unrealistic', 'magical' thinking.
Wishing that something will happen will make it so. Convincing yourself
that things might've been different if only you had/hadn't done
something. That sort of thing.
Willow: definately bargaining. Hasn't accepted that Buffy's gone for
good, and there's the dead obvious paralell between magic <=>
bargaining. Spells and calling upon mystical powers, all 'unrealistic'
things in a RW sense. She's pushing it, will do most anything to get it
done, she's the most convinced she's 'right'.
Giles: definately doing the whole 'if only I had...' thing; blaming
himself for what happened which, objectively speaking, is just, well,
silly. He's also exhibiting denial, training the BuffyBot as if it were
the real deal, not being able to accept that Buffy's really gone. The
'depression' thing is a bit omni-present (BTW, in this context
'depression' does not mean pathological depression; rather, we're
talking about a natural reaction to loss), but he does flip over to
acceptance when confronted with reality, by the BuffyBot, no less.
Xander: he has far from accepted the situation. No where near accepting
it. He's not moving on at all. He's more or less denying the reality, on
some levels. He knows Buffy is dead, he's nervous about the spell, but
he still won't let Anya 'disturb the others' with the announcement of
their engagement. He's not moving on at all, really. The holding back
has little to do with tactlessness on Anya's part, much more to do with
his own issues with the situation. For me, the single biggest pointer is
when he says: "We need Buffy". They're in a jam, and the first reaction
he has is 'We need Buffy', and he means it seriously. Coping?
Acceptance? I think not. As for the 'bargaining' aspect, he's going
along in the magic thing, but no, not really much there.
Dawn's completely in denial. You could consider part of it to be
'magical thinking' (believeing that the Bot is Buffy) but I would tend
not to. She's transferring her feelings to the Bot, treating it as a
surrogate sister, her only 'family'. She hasn't dealt with her grief
much at all. She's in stasis, pretty much, although later scenes clearly
show that she isn't completely in her own dream world. Illogic is normal
in these situations.
Tara and Anya have more or less moved to acceptance. They didn't have
the close relationship the others did, for one thing.
> > > > I had that, yeah. And the sound wasn't in sync with the picture as
> > > > well.
> > >
> > > Didn't notice the out of synchness, to be honest.
>
> For the record: I had a 400MB download - everything was in sync, but the
> quality of the screen wasn't always that...good
Only 400? Or 400 per part? Anyway, quality was better than on Angel, but
still not perfect. Audio was crappish on the one I got. I'm hoping for a
better version (or two..;-)
Mattia Valente
Um, riiight...
> A thing I realised today: none of the entire gang has a normal set of
> parents. Buffy and Dawn no longer have a mother and their father is
> anywhere but in Sunnydale, Willow's parents have always been absent at
> best, Tara only has a father left but probably won't see him ever again,
> and Anya's parents are long dead. And while Xander's parents are far
> from rolemodels when it comes to parenting, he comes closest of all to
> having normal parents. In a way they are all orphans who have only each
> other as family. Maybe that's what Family really was about. They all
> stood up for Tara not only because they like her (and what's there not
> to like) but also because they know how much family and parents in
> particular can suck.
Yep. Dysfunctional families all. Heck, even Angel has a screwed up
family. Wes did, Faith most definately did, ditto Kendra, we don't know
much about Giles....I mean, seriously.
> > Could also be considered bargaining (stages of grief) when looked at in
> > a certain way.
>
> Yeah, what was the title all about? What meaning of the word bargaining
> am I missing here. Bargaining stands for stages of grief?
Explained in other post. Sorry, thought I'd mentioned it somewhere
already. Guess I hadn't.
> > > I had that, yeah. And the sound wasn't in sync with the picture as well.
> >
> > Didn't notice the out of synchness, to be honest.
>
> Maybe it's just my version then, maybe something went wrong burning it
> (although I only burned at 2x, should be okay).
Hmm...Perhaps. Some others complained. Maybe I was too busy to notice
P@rick
[Exposition on 'bargaining']
Thanks Mattia. Very insightful stuff. Actually something to know before
the ep so that you can pay attention to it. Did you (yes/no)?
Bye, Patrick
Mattia Valente
;-)
Thanks!
I was vaguely aware of the stages of grief a long time ago, then a few
short days before I watched the ep we (as in us med student people
here..) did a 'dealing with grief/loss' Medical Communication
training/workshop thing. Things fell into place, little epiphanies (also
started thinking back to other Buffy eps...yes, I wasn't paying very
good attention, bad Mattia, blah blah blah..) and I thought I 'got' the
ep's title before I got to see it. Turned out I was right.
Sieue
mae.v...@std.vu.nl says...
Blimey if the SapMeister says it's too wuvvy duvvy, it must be.
Sieue
--
It could be the burning baby fish swimming round your head.