Judgement [spoilers]
george van hal
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So, that was "Judgement"...
The Buffy season opener was a tad dissapointing, and as
such I was hoping that the Angel season opener would be
better. And it is, sort off. Not exactly storywise,
because the story is weak, but it gets the whole
atmosphere and feel right first time round. And you
realy sort of have to aplaud that.
Like I said the story wasn't much to write home about.
Demon was friendly. Angel killed him. Yadda Yadda
Yadda. Moving right along...
The real strength of this episode came from the more
story arcy elements. The scene with Darla at Wolfram &
Hart gets it exactly right first time round. It has a
great feel to it and makes me look forward to the
things that David Greenwalt still has in store for us
this season.
Furthermore we see Angel deal with the events from the
end of season one. Redemtion is near, Angel could
become Human. Woohoo!! But slow down, Angel m'boy! This
is not gonna happen overnight and it's a case of pure
and simple self deception if you think otherwise.
Fortunatly the Angel Gang realises this fact in time,
before they *realy* let themselves get carried away and
they decide to take thinks "one soul at a time".
Also: We see Faith! Woohoo! Faith <JB> Rocks Ass </JB>.
It was cool to see that she's still there, if only for
continuity's sake. But other than that, it was just a
cool scene, even if it wasn't realy connected to the
rest of the episode all too much.
Oh and don't get me started on the singing ;-) The
karaoke bar however, very cool place. I'm hoping we'll
see more of that. Although one might hope that the
seeing more part does not entail hearing more. Of
Angels singing that is ;-)
All in all, Angel's season opener was weak though
enjoyable, storywise but was strong in setting the mood
for the season to come. It had a great "season opener
feel" and makes you want to see what it is that is
still in store for us.
I rate it a 7- / 10
See Ya,
George
--
"Have completely run out of ideas for season three..
look for the characters to be hitting themselves with
fish pretty much from episode six on."
Joss whedon
Mattia Valente
I guess it was..
> The Buffy season opener was a tad dissapointing, and as
> such I was hoping that the Angel season opener would be
> better. And it is, sort off.
Very sort of. Neither was particularly stunning, IMHO.
> Not exactly storywise,
> because the story is weak, but it gets the whole
> atmosphere and feel right first time round. And you
> realy sort of have to aplaud that.
Well, I disagree. Parts of it work very, very well atmospherically and
as a whole, the fell is right, the groove has been found, but other
parts just don't *quite* seem to make it through. Buffy, despite the
'wrong' and 'strange' feel it may have had, was far more cohesive.
> Like I said the story wasn't much to write home about.
> Demon was friendly. Angel killed him. Yadda Yadda
> Yadda. Moving right along...
Hmm...looks damn familiar. It's spooky...
> The real strength of this episode came from the more
> story arcy elements.
Not even. Character arc, yes. Story arc, not yet.
> The scene with Darla at Wolfram &
> Hart gets it exactly right first time round. It has a
The feel on it's own, yes. But the timing and placement is a little odd.
It's short, it's a reminder of what's to come, it doens't flow quite so
well with the rest of the episode.
> great feel to it and makes me look forward to the
> things that David Greenwalt still has in store for us
> this season.
And Joss! And also, my personal Angel Writing Hero, Tim Minear! Tim
Minear rocks..ahum. Sorry.
> Furthermore we see Angel deal with the events from the
> end of season one. Redemtion is near, Angel could
> become Human. Woohoo!!
Well, uh....
> But slow down, Angel m'boy! This
> is not gonna happen overnight and it's a case of pure
> and simple self deception if you think otherwise.
Indeed. Who knows when 'near' is. It might well be another few
centuries, y'know. At least a number of years to go, I should think.
> Fortunatly the Angel Gang realises this fact in time,
> before they *realy* let themselves get carried away and
> they decide to take thinks "one soul at a time".
Well, Angel does the realizing on his own, mostly, and that's pretty
much the key; he opens up to the Fang Gang, helps them realize it, but
it's Angel's own little epiphany that's central to the success of this
episode.
> Also: We see Faith! Woohoo! Faith <JB> Rocks Ass </JB>.
> It was cool to see that she's still there, if only for
> continuity's sake. But other than that, it was just a
> cool scene, even if it wasn't realy connected to the
> rest of the episode all too much.
Oh, I think it was; it ties in with the theme that was dealt with: the
rocky road to redemption. It's not simple for either of them, they both
had a fall (one bigger than the other) and both came out of it with a
beating and a clear understanding of the long road ahead of them. Or
maybe I'm stretching a little.
> Oh and don't get me started on the singing ;-) The
Well, it's worse than the dancing, anyway.
> karaoke bar however, very cool place. I'm hoping we'll
> see more of that. Although one might hope that the
> seeing more part does not entail hearing more. Of
> Angels singing that is ;-)
Right.
> All in all, Angel's season opener was weak though
> enjoyable, storywise but was strong in setting the mood
> for the season to come.
It was strong in the character development and moving along a number of
threads that were left dangling last season sense.
> It had a great "season opener
> feel" and makes you want to see what it is that is
> still in store for us.
Mwah. sort of. I've seen better season openers. It moved along one small
part; the rest of the 'promise' still stems from 'To Shanshu in LA', I
think, and not so much from 'Judgement' per se.
Mattia
--
"By the by, the answer to how I keep from losing it is I make sure to
paper the cracks in plumbing so the ooze from Saturn can't communicate
with my lungs anymore. Hmmm. I may be too late."
--Joss Whedon, Bronze Posting Board, 1998
george van hal
Yup. So we agree so far... ;-)
> > The Buffy season opener was a tad dissapointing, and as
> > such I was hoping that the Angel season opener would be
> > better. And it is, sort off.
>
> Very sort of. Neither was particularly stunning, IMHO.
Very true. These were not the strongest two eps ever or anything even
closely resembling that. Of course the fun of new Buffy and Angel eps sorta
made up for that :-)
> > Not exactly storywise,
> > because the story is weak, but it gets the whole
> > atmosphere and feel right first time round. And you
> > realy sort of have to aplaud that.
>
> Well, I disagree. Parts of it work very, very well atmospherically and
> as a whole, the fell is right, the groove has been found, but other
> parts just don't *quite* seem to make it through. Buffy, despite the
> 'wrong' and 'strange' feel it may have had, was far more cohesive.
Buffy's story was more cohesive, I agree. But even though it was more
cohesive, it was just as bad at the core. This episode of Angel had a
slightly better story, which was executed a tad worse, but I still think the
"feel" makes up for it.
> > Like I said the story wasn't much to write home about.
> > Demon was friendly. Angel killed him. Yadda Yadda
> > Yadda. Moving right along...
>
> Hmm...looks damn familiar. It's spooky...
Yes. Very scary.
> > The real strength of this episode came from the more
> > story arcy elements.
>
> Not even. Character arc, yes. Story arc, not yet.
Story arc-y. The thing with Darla was, for instance, a story arc-y element.
Angels storyarc wasn't finished in s1 after all, like the Buffy arcs tend to
be,.
> > The scene with Darla at Wolfram &
> > Hart gets it exactly right first time round. It has a
>
> The feel on it's own, yes. But the timing and placement is a little odd.
> It's short, it's a reminder of what's to come, it doens't flow quite so
> well with the rest of the episode.
That I agree with. But there's more things like this that don't quite mesh
in the grand scheme of the episode. Taken by itself though, the scene is
pretty good.
> > great feel to it and makes me look forward to the
> > things that David Greenwalt still has in store for us
> > this season.
>
> And Joss! And also, my personal Angel Writing Hero, Tim Minear! Tim
> Minear rocks..ahum. Sorry.
/me passes M his pills
Calm down, M....
> > Furthermore we see Angel deal with the events from the
> > end of season one. Redemtion is near, Angel could
> > become Human. Woohoo!!
>
> Well, uh....
;-)
> > But slow down, Angel m'boy! This
> > is not gonna happen overnight and it's a case of pure
> > and simple self deception if you think otherwise.
>
> Indeed. Who knows when 'near' is. It might well be another few
> centuries, y'know. At least a number of years to go, I should think.
*at least* indeed....
> > Fortunatly the Angel Gang realises this fact in time,
> > before they *realy* let themselves get carried away and
> > they decide to take thinks "one soul at a time".
>
> Well, Angel does the realizing on his own, mostly, and that's pretty
> much the key; he opens up to the Fang Gang, helps them realize it, but
> it's Angel's own little epiphany that's central to the success of this
> episode.
Yup. Angel having an epiphany is cool. Oh yes. ;-)
> > Also: We see Faith! Woohoo! Faith <JB> Rocks Ass </JB>.
> > It was cool to see that she's still there, if only for
> > continuity's sake. But other than that, it was just a
> > cool scene, even if it wasn't realy connected to the
> > rest of the episode all too much.
>
> Oh, I think it was; it ties in with the theme that was dealt with: the
> rocky road to redemption. It's not simple for either of them, they both
> had a fall (one bigger than the other) and both came out of it with a
> beating and a clear understanding of the long road ahead of them. Or
> maybe I'm stretching a little.
Yeah it ís connected in *that* way, of course, but that's not realy enough
imho. And yeah, you're a little stretchy ;-)
> > Oh and don't get me started on the singing ;-) The
>
> Well, it's worse than the dancing, anyway.
And that's saying a *lot* ;-)
> > All in all, Angel's season opener was weak though
> > enjoyable, storywise but was strong in setting the mood
> > for the season to come.
>
> It was strong in the character development and moving along a number of
> threads that were left dangling last season sense.
Yeah. We sort-of agree, we're just giving it different names ;-)
> > It had a great "season opener
> > feel" and makes you want to see what it is that is
> > still in store for us.
>
> Mwah. sort of. I've seen better season openers. It moved along one small
> part; the rest of the 'promise' still stems from 'To Shanshu in LA', I
> think, and not so much from 'Judgement' per se.
Hmm. Perhaps. But it's sort of impossible to see the one without the other.
I think that an episode that cashes in on a part of the potential of a
previous episode still earns some kudos itself....
george van hal
> george van hal skriver...
> > The real strength of this episode came from the more
> > story arcy elements. The scene with Darla at Wolfram &
> > Hart gets it exactly right first time round. It has a
> > great feel to it and makes me look forward to the
> > things that David Greenwalt still has in store for us
> > this season.
>
> Well, I'd like to see all of the ep as a composition, not
> separating arc from episode.
Of course, that's the reason that this episode isn't thát good.
The composition was off. But some individual scenes and the basic
style and feel save the episode from being realy bad. It *would*
have been realy bad if this episode would just have been the bad
story and nothing more.
> In this sense, the story wasn't
> that bad, but the ep as a whole, it wasn't completely
> successful. Too much of a loose collection. As if the writers
> weren't exactly clear what they wanted. Still, compared to
> Buffy, Angel himself bears much better when submitted to
> "funniness".
Well, this comes a a shock, but I tend to agree with you ;-)
See Ya,
George
Welcome back in abe, btw, Peter!
Mattia Valente
Wow. How totally not amazing.
> > > The Buffy season opener was a tad dissapointing, and as
> > > such I was hoping that the Angel season opener would be
> > > better. And it is, sort off.
> >
> > Very sort of. Neither was particularly stunning, IMHO.
>
> Very true. These were not the strongest two eps ever or anything even
> closely resembling that. Of course the fun of new Buffy and Angel eps sorta
> made up for that :-)
Well, new...
;-)
> > Well, I disagree. Parts of it work very, very well atmospherically and
> > as a whole, the fell is right, the groove has been found, but other
> > parts just don't *quite* seem to make it through. Buffy, despite the
> > 'wrong' and 'strange' feel it may have had, was far more cohesive.
>
> Buffy's story was more cohesive, I agree. But even though it was more
> cohesive, it was just as bad at the core.
Well, just as 'nowhere near good', anyway. I've seen worse episodes.
> This episode of Angel had a
> slightly better story, which was executed a tad worse, but I still think the
> "feel" makes up for it.
I don't see 'Judgement' as quite nailing that gerat feel, though, which
is probably why I like it less. As for the story: Angel, IMHO, presented
us with possibly the wimpiest excuse for plot (if we're talking MotW
content, which is what was weak, plot-wise, in Buffy) in a good long
time. The ep wasn't about the story, really, which was predictable and
not particularly original or surprising.
> > > Like I said the story wasn't much to write home about.
> > > Demon was friendly. Angel killed him. Yadda Yadda
> > > Yadda. Moving right along...
> >
> > Hmm...looks damn familiar. It's spooky...
>
> Yes. Very scary.
:-p
> > > The real strength of this episode came from the more
> > > story arcy elements.
> >
> > Not even. Character arc, yes. Story arc, not yet.
>
> Story arc-y. The thing with Darla was, for instance, a story arc-y element.
Right. We've established she's alive. The only new thing we've learned
is that she hangs out in Lindseys office listening to Chopin and that,
for some reason, she can feel Angel's presence. And that lindsey has a
pathetic plastic hand. OK, sure. It's an arc-y element, but, really,
honestly, it doesn't quite mesh with the rest. It's a taste of what's to
come, I think, to small to be calling it 'arcy' just yet. Right now it's
just continuity. I call something arcy if it actually moves us forward
in any significant manner.
> Angels storyarc wasn't finished in s1 after all, like the Buffy arcs tend to
> be,.
Angel's arcs are more complex than Buffy's, yes; mostly because of their
strange sense of timing, I think..I'll discuss my 'Arc Theory' later on
in the season though, when I have more stuff to back me up.
> > The feel on it's own, yes. But the timing and placement is a little odd.
> > It's short, it's a reminder of what's to come, it doens't flow quite so
> > well with the rest of the episode.
>
> That I agree with. But there's more things like this that don't quite mesh
> in the grand scheme of the episode.
..and that's the issue I have with it. It doesn't quite blend in with
the whole.
> Taken by itself though, the scene is
> pretty good.
I agree there. Nice little appetizer..
> > And Joss! And also, my personal Angel Writing Hero, Tim Minear! Tim
> > Minear rocks..ahum. Sorry.
>
> /me passes M his pills
>
> Calm down, M....
I'm serious. Look at his writing credits:
Sense & Sensitivity
Hero (co-written)
Somnambulist
Sanctuary (with Joss)
for S2, jump down below the extra spoilerspace..just in case you don't
want to know which eps I pretty much like a good bit :o)
> > > But slow down, Angel m'boy! This
> > > is not gonna happen overnight and it's a case of pure
> > > and simple self deception if you think otherwise.
> >
> > Indeed. Who knows when 'near' is. It might well be another few
> > centuries, y'know. At least a number of years to go, I should think.
>
> *at least* indeed....
'xactly
<SNIP Agreeage. Boooring>
<Faith>
> > Oh, I think it was; it ties in with the theme that was dealt with: the
> > rocky road to redemption. It's not simple for either of them, they both
> > had a fall (one bigger than the other) and both came out of it with a
> > beating and a clear understanding of the long road ahead of them. Or
> > maybe I'm stretching a little.
>
> Yeah it ís connected in *that* way, of course, but that's not realy enough
> imho. And yeah, you're a little stretchy ;-)
Only a little bit. Thematically it works, and, since the main story of
the ep had been wrapped up, the coda was more of a free for all; it can
get away with not meshing quite easily (though I personally think in
meshed pretty darn well.)
> > > Oh and don't get me started on the singing ;-) The
> >
> > Well, it's worse than the dancing, anyway.
>
> And that's saying a *lot* ;-)
Indeed.
> > > All in all, Angel's season opener was weak though
> > > enjoyable, storywise but was strong in setting the mood
> > > for the season to come.
> >
> > It was strong in the character development and moving along a number of
> > threads that were left dangling last season sense.
>
> Yeah. We sort-of agree, we're just giving it different names ;-)
Wimp. Disagree, dammit!
;-P
> > Mwah. sort of. I've seen better season openers. It moved along one small
> > part; the rest of the 'promise' still stems from 'To Shanshu in LA', I
> > think, and not so much from 'Judgement' per se.
>
> Hmm. Perhaps. But it's sort of impossible to see the one without the other.
Well, obviously.
> I think that an episode that cashes in on a part of the potential of a
> previous episode still earns some kudos itself....
That's not what I said: it cashed in on a tiny part of last eps
potential; the rest of the promise and anticipation was touched on,
reminding us we had it, but comes from 'Shanshu'. Do you understand the
distinction I'm trying to make here?
Mattia
EXTRA SPOILERSPACE: Eps that Tim Minear wrote in S2:
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AYNOHYEB
Darla (also directed)
The Trial
Reunion (co-written)
Reprise
Epiphany
Through the Looking Glass (also directed)
And, of course, he's co-producer now..or sumthin.
Mattia Valente
> > separating arc from episode.
>
> Of course, that's the reason that this episode isn't thát good.
> The composition was off. But some individual scenes and the basic
> style and feel save the episode from being realy bad. It *would*
> have been realy bad if this episode would just have been the bad
> story and nothing more.
Mwah..they could've cut the W&H scene and it wouldn't have made a major
impact on the overall quality of this episode, IMHO. It may have made
the feel a little more cohesive and steady, which might've helped
(although there are other bits that would've hindered said feel.) The
thing is, it adds nothing (zip, nada, zero) to the episode besides a
scene with a nice 'feel'; it's wholly irellevant to the immediate plot,
which, simple as it seems, does important things.
> > In this sense, the story wasn't
> > that bad, but the ep as a whole, it wasn't completely
> > successful. Too much of a loose collection. As if the writers
> > weren't exactly clear what they wanted. Still, compared to
> > Buffy, Angel himself bears much better when submitted to
> > "funniness".
>
> Well, this comes a a shock, but I tend to agree with you ;-)
My world is falling apart...
Mattia