Buffy 4.11 Doomed (SPOILERS)
P@rick
We have waited a long time for it. But Buffy is back again!
[...]
So why the long faces? Well, like Willow said way back in S1:
"This is bad".
When Marti Noxon, David Fury and Jane Espenson sit down to write an
episode together, it's not *that* far fetched to expect a stunning
result, right? Three very experienced Buffy writers should be able to
come up with a heck of a good story, right? Well... they failed.
Miserably. For it is 'Doomed', the king of stinkers. May all lesser
stinkers bow before it.
I'm under the impression that this episode is supposed to be all about
Riley and Buffy, and their relationship angst. They found out about each
other's secret and try to work out how to move on from there. Then the
writers realised that there's supposed to be an element of horror in the
show:
"I know" one of them cheered, "why don't we open the Hellmouth and end
the world?"
"Yeah, great idea! It's been ages since we've done that." the two others
agreed in unison. "And hey, even better, we can let Riley save Buffy's
life. That way we'll establish that they can work as a team, and Buffy
will have a reason to mount her hero at the first opportunity."
"You think the viewers will actually buy that?" one of them asked
worriedly.
"Sure they will. And we won't know unless we try."
This must be how we ended up with an episode in which we see Riley
shoving himself through Buffy's (and our) throat. I admire Buffy's
self-control for not putting her fist in his face. But for the rest,
Buffy failed her exam. For instance, why go after a demon that is about
to end the world when you have a great opportunity to have a
relationship-talk with Riley? And oh, I promised Riley not to tell
anyone about his secret. So surely I can't tell Giles about it, for it
would be in the newspapers the next day since he can't keep a secret.
And he's clever enough to figure it out himself eventually. When he's
done talking to me in that strange voice.
It turns out that Buffy is rather freaked about the fact that her
newfound object of affection isn't quite as normal as she hoped he would
be. Riley thinks it's pretty cool that they both hunt demons in their
leisure time. But Buffy thinks it's a real turn-off. Why this violent
reaction?
Well maybe it's because Buffy only recently visited her former beau
Angel in LA. That would be during 'I Will Remember You'. In this
crossover Angel ep, Buffy got into a little fight with Angel. And she
left after she had told him that they shouldn't see each other for a
while, so that they both could go on with their lives. In 'Doomed', this
is all still fresh in Buffy's memory. And she's just starting to fall in
love with an ordinary but sweet and good-looking farm boy from Iowa. So
when Buffy discovers Riley isn't so ordinary after all, she freaks.
After the whole emotional-rollercoaster relationship with Angel, the
last thing she wants is a second ride. She's left wondering if she will
ever have a normal relationship with a normal guy, and comes to the
conclusion that she will not. The world is evil, her life is
predetermined and her relationships are doomed. Sho she doesn't want to
get into one of those again.
But whaddaya know, at the end of the ep Buffy is crawling all over
Riley. How come this sudden change of heart? Just because Riley can help
Buffy in her fight against evil means that their relationship suddenly
is all sunshine and roses? Or is it because of what he said. Riley was
right about one thing: it's worth to give it a try (I can't believe I'm
saying this!). On the plus side he's able to know and understand what
she is and what she does. And they both age, so there's the possibility
of growing old together. On the down side... well... he's just *so*
boring. But as far as relationships go in a Slayer's life, this might be
close to ideal.
I'm afraid that we'll be seeing a lot more of Riley and Buffy
relationship horror (read: smoochin') in the future, so enough about
them for now.
The apocalyptic threat was played very badly. There was a total lack of
suspense as it was handled as the sidestory. Saying "It's the end of the
world!" doesn't automatically raise our heartbeat. They'd have to come
up with a lot more and better than that. But most (valuable) screentime
was filled with Buffy-Riley angst. It even interfered directly with
attempts to stop the end-of-days as was evident when Buffy let the
Vahral demon get away to have a chat with Riley.
It appears to be relatively easy to open the Hellmouth, if you just know
which ingredients to get. The demons would have pulled it off if they
had taken the blood of some tramp nobody cares about instead of taking
the blood of a student. And if they had killed Giles, just like they
killed that boy. Why the hell is Giles still alive? I mean, I'm glad he
is. But it's not logical. And speaking of far fetched: Riley and his
super lifeline, allowing Buffy to jump after that demon, gaining in on
him, catching him and coming to a full stop during free fall. And then
pulling the two of them up. Oh please! Couldn't *three* writers come up
with anything less incredible?
And how about the "We can't kill poor old Spike" routine. Why not kill
him? It's not like he has been very helpful providing them with
information about tI. At least, we didn't get to see it. The worst thing
is, the Scoobies keep talking about finishing Spike off, but they just
don't practice what they preach. For no apparent reason other than "He's
so defenseless now that he is defanged". Defenseless right, but not
innocent. I guess they may dust him in a later episode, since they only
just found out that Riley is probably a better source on tI than Spike.
At least Spike provides us with the necessary humor to relieve the bad
script somewhat. Especially the final scene was great:
"I say we go out there and kick a little demon ass! Come on! Vampires!
Grrr! Nasty! Let's annihilate them. For justice - and for - the safety
of puppies - and Christmas, right? Let's *fight* that evil! - Let's
*kill* something! Oh, come *on*!"
Yes, it's good to see Spike kick ass again. Even if it's just demon ass.
Ironic: the only ones he can beat up are his former 'friends'. Spike is
selfish enough to not give a damn. And he already beat up a vampire or
two in his glory days. This should keep him from staking himself.
Pathetic sight that, although it was touching how he said goodbye to
Dru. The poor sod misses her, and so do I.
While Spike can't harm the Scoobies physically, he tries to hurt them
psychologically. And not without results. He knows exactly where and how
to hurt them. After all that Willow and Xander have been through with
Buffy, and after the numerous times they really helped her, he degrades
them to useless geek status with a few well placed remarks.
Although Willow was slowly getting there herself. She had trouble
socializing at the party. My god, I can't believe such a beautiful girl
would remain unnoticed by the male population. Damn, are American male
students *that* shallow? I wouldn't believe my eyes if a lovely girl
like her was standing there all alone. She deserves so much better than
ending up in bed with a dead guy. But that aside, Willow felt uneasy
without Buffy. And to make things worse she overhears Percy saying he
thinks she's a nerd. What a jerk, and what a poor taste in women.
She clearly was upset about by words. I thought she had grown more than
that. What other people think of her is still a sensitive issue with
Willow. And she's even more vulnerable because of her post-Oz
depression. Xander wasn't doing much better. He's pizza guy now. I was
waiting for this to happen, because Cordelia predicted it all the way
back in 'Reptile Boy':
"You'll go to college someday, Xander. I just know your pizza delivery
career will take you so many exciting places." How very prophetic!
Spike observes all of this and comments on it. He is like the narrator
of what is happening this season. Xander is feeling obsolete and
useless, Willow is feeling alone and insecure. In short: the scoobies
are drifting apart. Willow and Xander seem to be the only ones who spend
leisure time together (like back in the early days, it's heartwarming).
The Scoobies only get together when they have to, when there's work to
do. Spike puts his finger on the sore spot. And presses on it to make
the pain worse, just for fun, because he's evil.
Strange to see Sunnydale High again. At least, I *think* it was
Sunnydale high. Couldn't recognize the place. Why haven't they torn it
down by now? Nothing left but dangerous ruins. And did no one ever
notice the Mayor's remains inside? Or the bare Hellmouth for that
matter. You'd expect a thorough investigation after such an incident.
Like I said, this ep was actually really bad. But it still managed to be
entertaining every now and then. Mainly because of the comedy parts.
That's the thing with BtVS: even when it's bad it doesn't completely
suck. Although I think it can do with a lot less slapstick comedy and a
lot more quality scripts. And no more writing in threesomes!
Bye, Patrick
--
Keeper of the Willowism, "And I'm eating this banana. Lunchtime be
damned!"
Keeper of the Wily Willow Charms
ThreadMaker [tm]
ReviewMeister [tm]
Mattia Valente
>
> *** SPOILERS Buffy 4.11 Doomed ***
>
> We have waited a long time for it. But Buffy is back again!
Hehe...well, not quite so long as last time around, with Net5, but
still...
> [...]
Hmmm...interesting.
> So why the long faces? Well, like Willow said way back in S1:
>
> "This is bad".
Yes indeed. Sad but true. Story wasn't up to par, and it's a huge big
letdown, especially after Hush.
> When Marti Noxon, David Fury and Jane Espenson sit down to write an
> episode together, it's not *that* far fetched to expect a stunning
> result, right? Three very experienced Buffy writers should be able to
> come up with a heck of a good story, right? Well... they failed.
One would assume so, yes. Obviously this bunch is a lot better off
working on their own. Perhaps it was because there were just too many
different minds all working on the same thing, so that the big jumbled
result that is 'Doomed' is in some sort of way inevitable. Or something.
> Miserably. For it is 'Doomed', the king of stinkers. May all lesser
> stinkers bow before it.
Well, now you're overdoing it. You *have* seen Go Fish, right? Stuck in
there between Passion and Becoming, more or less?
> I'm under the impression that this episode is supposed to be all about
> Riley and Buffy, and their relationship angst.
Which in and of itself is, well, only mildly interesting. Boreley's a
little to rileying..uhh...you know what I mean.
> They found out about each
> other's secret and try to work out how to move on from there. Then the
> writers realised that there's supposed to be an element of horror in the
> show:
Right! Horror good! Maybe they'll make the show fit the ludicrous genre
description that the Beeb (or our TV guides, anyway) seem to give the
show! It's Horror! But of course!!
> "I know" one of them cheered, "why don't we open the Hellmouth and end
> the world?"
> "Yeah, great idea! It's been ages since we've done that."
<Willow, Xander, Buffy>Again?!?!?!?!</Willow, Xander, Buffy>
> the two others agreed in unison.
Yes. They must have all been doing a bunch of drugs. Or at least some
nitrous oxide.
> "And hey, even better, we can let Riley save Buffy's
> life. That way we'll establish that they can work as a team, and Buffy
> will have a reason to mount her hero at the first opportunity."
Wohoo!!! Yess!!! More SEX!!!!!!!!
Oh, and lets not forget positively the worst (and I mean 10 times worse
than snake mayor or any other effect) special effect, Newtonian laws of
motion defying, jumping into a hellmouth thingy and catching a demon and
stopping a nice fast heavy rope with bare hands stunt thingy!
> "You think the viewers will actually buy that?" one of them asked
> worriedly.
So, there was one slightly sober mind in the bunch?
> "Sure they will. And we won't know unless we try."
And at least one idiot? (temporary or not..)
> This must be how we ended up with an episode in which we see Riley
> shoving himself through Buffy's (and our) throat. I admire Buffy's
> self-control for not putting her fist in his face.
Too Much Riley. And I foresee it will get worse in the future, before it
ever has a chance of getting better. As for Buffy's self control, I'm
dissapointed she has so much of it.
> But for the rest,
> Buffy failed her exam. For instance, why go after a demon that is about
> to end the world when you have a great opportunity to have a
> relationship-talk with Riley?
Right, because it's Doomed, and we've had Doomed before, so it's a walk
in the park, run of the mill, broing little apocalypsy thingymabob.
We'll just let it slide for a while, deal with it a little later. You
know, when it's almost too late, that kind of thing. Oh, and, um,
'Lilac'?
> And oh, I promised Riley not to tell
> anyone about his secret. So surely I can't tell Giles about it, for it
> would be in the newspapers the next day since he can't keep a secret.
Oh indeed. And it's not like he's going to find out eventually anyway. I
mean, WTF? Hasn't she learned the 'don't lie to Giles or keep stuff from
him' lesson yet? That's ended rather unpleasantly in the past.
> And he's clever enough to figure it out himself eventually. When he's
> done talking to me in that strange voice.
Seems that was a voicover, because he had a cold at the time of the
shoot. Seems he had a cold at the time of the voiceover as well.
> It turns out that Buffy is rather freaked about the fact that her
> newfound object of affection isn't quite as normal as she hoped he would
> be.
And she's what, shocked and surprised? Anyway, normal boyfriends are
like, boring. And she managed to find a really, really boring not quite
normal boyfriend! Wow! We so like him more than Angel, that charismatic,
brooding, intelligent, thinks-for-himself, cool Vampire guy. Really! We
like our men Boring, with a capital B. Oh, and not quite brilliant as
well.
> Riley thinks it's pretty cool that they both hunt demons in their
> leisure time. But Buffy thinks it's a real turn-off. Why this violent
> reaction?
Right. Poor little Buffy (oh, and big oafish Riley.)
> Well maybe it's because Buffy only recently visited her former beau
> Angel in LA. That would be during 'I Will Remember You'. In this
> crossover Angel ep, Buffy got into a little fight with Angel.
Indeed. Well, that she remembers, anyway. Too bad, really. Damn those
reset buttons!
> And she
> left after she had told him that they shouldn't see each other for a
> while, so that they both could go on with their lives. In 'Doomed', this
> is all still fresh in Buffy's memory. And she's just starting to fall in
> love with an ordinary but sweet and good-looking farm boy from Iowa. So
> when Buffy discovers Riley isn't so ordinary after all, she freaks.
Well, yeah. That, at least, is understandable. What exactly she saw in
Riley (other than the opposite of Angel) I'm still trying to fathom.
Having just finished a S4 rewatch, I've noticed Riley's even more
annoying than I remembered him to be. Which isn't exactly a good thing.
Oh well.
> After the whole emotional-rollercoaster relationship with Angel, the
> last thing she wants is a second ride. She's left wondering if she will
> ever have a normal relationship with a normal guy, and comes to the
> conclusion that she will not.
To which I would have to say 'Duh'. Wake up call for Buffy, this is
reality! Any serious realtionship with a guy would have to end up with
him knowing about her true identity, thus blurring everyuthing again.
Normal, like what other people have, is not in it for Buffy or any of
the rest of the gang. Xander has an ex-demon, Willow had a werewolf and
seems to be moving on towards a witch, and Giles, well, his little
orgasm friend's bubble was burst in 'Hush', more or less.
> The world is evil, her life is
> predetermined and her relationships are doomed. Sho she doesn't want to
> get into one of those again.
Right. Enter a nunnery, perhaps?
> But whaddaya know, at the end of the ep Buffy is crawling all over
> Riley. How come this sudden change of heart? Just because Riley can help
> Buffy in her fight against evil means that their relationship suddenly
> is all sunshine and roses? Or is it because of what he said. Riley was
> right about one thing: it's worth to give it a try (I can't believe I'm
> saying this!).
Neither can I. It's downright shocking!
;o)
Possibly it's just animal lust, horniness and hormoniness taking over
again. As Faith said, a good slay makes you hungry and horny. Or
something like that.
> On the plus side he's able to know and understand what
> she is and what she does. And they both age, so there's the possibility
> of growing old together.
Now *that*, my friend, is true horror. Perchance the writers succeded
after all, albeit in a roundabout, slightly ctyptic and possibly not
quite intentional manner.
> On the down side... well... he's just *so*
> boring. But as far as relationships go in a Slayer's life, this might be
> close to ideal.
Broing is good? That's a new one. Maybe she could date a rock. Rocks can
provide funny lines (It's a big rock. I can't wait to tell my friends.
None of them have a rock this big.)
> I'm afraid that we'll be seeing a lot more of Riley and Buffy
> relationship horror (read: smoochin') in the future, so enough about
> them for now.
Indeed, 'tis so. I wish it were only smooching.
> The apocalyptic threat was played very badly. There was a total lack of
> suspense as it was handled as the sidestory. Saying "It's the end of the
> world!" doesn't automatically raise our heartbeat.
No, it just elicits an "Again?!?!?!" Not much more. Fair enough, I
guess..no, wait, it's not. Scratch that. Apocalyps handeled as a
sidestory can be done well (see 'The Zeppo') but I digress.
> They'd have to come
> up with a lot more and better than that. But most (valuable) screentime
> was filled with Buffy-Riley angst.
aka relative boredom.
> It even interfered directly with
> attempts to stop the end-of-days as was evident when Buffy let the
> Vahral demon get away to have a chat with Riley.
That was, um.... Plot development. And stuff.
> It appears to be relatively easy to open the Hellmouth, if you just know
> which ingredients to get. The demons would have pulled it off if they
> had taken the blood of some tramp nobody cares about instead of taking
> the blood of a student.
What is up with the dorms, anyway? They get hit an awful lot! Oh, and a
party is definately the easiest place to get some blood. No people
around to disturb you, that kind of stuff. Nice and peaceful. Of course,
nobody in the crowded dorm ever saw the '3 meter tall' (OK, Army boys
need to learn their metric system..) demon. Odd, really.
> And if they had killed Giles, just like they
> killed that boy. Why the hell is Giles still alive? I mean, I'm glad he
> is. But it's not logical.
Well, they weren't going to bother, they just wanted the Word of Valios.
Why they beat the crap out of him is a little vague, unless it's
retaliation for getting punched. They figured 'well, we're going to end
the world, so what does it matter'. That, and Giles got knocked out
again, which is a very common occurence.
> And speaking of far fetched: Riley and his
> super lifeline, allowing Buffy to jump after that demon, gaining in on
> him, catching him and coming to a full stop during free fall. And then
> pulling the two of them up. Oh please! Couldn't *three* writers come up
> with anything less incredible?
No, they really couldn't. Add to that stupid special effects shots, and
you've got a loser! Err...winner...whatever.
> And how about the "We can't kill poor old Spike" routine. Why not kill
> him? It's not like he has been very helpful providing them with
> information about tI. At least, we didn't get to see it.
Of course he did! Spike's verrrry forthcoming and all that! And we can't
just kill him, it's wrong! Well, sort of, in a not at all kind of way.
Spike did get to do some psychological damage though, even though
punching is out of the question, it would seem.
> The worst thing
> is, the Scoobies keep talking about finishing Spike off, but they just
> don't practice what they preach. For no apparent reason other than "He's
> so defenseless now that he is defanged". Defenseless right, but not
> innocent. I guess they may dust him in a later episode, since they only
> just found out that Riley is probably a better source on tI than Spike.
Riiight. Two words here: Spike Funny. Add an is, and you've almost got a
full sentence.
> At least Spike provides us with the necessary humor to relieve the bad
> script somewhat. Especially the final scene was great:
Indeed he does, although it's still somewhat pathetic, rather a sad turn
of events as far as Spike, the Big Bad Vampire from S2, is concerned. I
wish Dru was around as well....
> "I say we go out there and kick a little demon ass! Come on! Vampires!
> Grrr! Nasty! Let's annihilate them. For justice - and for - the safety
> of puppies - and Christmas, right? Let's *fight* that evil! - Let's
> *kill* something! Oh, come *on*!"
Hehehe...that, and the completely flummoxed flabbergasted pair that is
Willow and Xander. Priceless.
> Yes, it's good to see Spike kick ass again. Even if it's just demon ass.
Oh, indeed it is. It's at least *something* he can do.
> Ironic: the only ones he can beat up are his former 'friends'. Spike is
> selfish enough to not give a damn. And he already beat up a vampire or
> two in his glory days.
Well, yeah. He killed the Annoying One, for one. And has little patience
with fools (except, it would seem, the Scooby Gang. Odd...)
> This should keep him from staking himself.
Well yes. Still shouldn't be keeping other people from staking him
though.
> Pathetic sight that, although it was touching how he said goodbye to
> Dru. The poor sod misses her, and so do I.
Amen to that.
> While Spike can't harm the Scoobies physically, he tries to hurt them
> psychologically. And not without results. He knows exactly where and how
> to hurt them.
Spike's a natural. He has a knack for seeing through to the core of
people, assesing their emotional situation. Great judge of character. He
uses this handy dandy little skill to cause as much damage as possible,
of course, which is fair enough. He, after all, *evil*.
> After all that Willow and Xander have been through with
> Buffy, and after the numerous times they really helped her, he degrades
> them to useless geek status with a few well placed remarks.
Poor little old them. It's not really justified, but it is in keeping
with the seemingly reccuring theme of the season: Scooby Gang Break
uppage.
> Although Willow was slowly getting there herself. She had trouble
> socializing at the party.
Right. Feeling low and alone, still in the wake of Oz's departure.
> My god, I can't believe such a beautiful girl
> would remain unnoticed by the male population. Damn, are American male
> students *that* shallow?
It would seem so, yes. Then again, possibly we're just a teensy tiny bit
biased. A little.
> I wouldn't believe my eyes if a lovely girl
> like her was standing there all alone. She deserves so much better than
> ending up in bed with a dead guy.
Well, obviously. She deserves, say, me!
> But that aside, Willow felt uneasy
> without Buffy. And to make things worse she overhears Percy saying he
> thinks she's a nerd. What a jerk, and what a poor taste in women.
Well, we always knew he was an idiot. Let's get VampWillow in here to
throw him across the room for a second, shall we? That ought to put the
fear of, well, Willow in to him.
> She clearly was upset about by words. I thought she had grown more than
> that. What other people think of her is still a sensitive issue with
> Willow. And she's even more vulnerable because of her post-Oz
> depression.
I think she's always been worried about how people see her. She's grown
more independant over time, but she's still not as self assured as she
would like people to thing. The Oz thing is a big part f the added
vulnerability, that coupled with the whole Buffy situation.
> Xander wasn't doing much better. He's pizza guy now. I was
> waiting for this to happen, because Cordelia predicted it all the way
> back in 'Reptile Boy':
>
> "You'll go to college someday, Xander. I just know your pizza delivery
> career will take you so many exciting places." How very prophetic!
<grin>
You've been watching ahead on them little DVD thingies, haven't you?
Admit it!
> In short: the scoobies are drifting apart.
Indeed. I'm not liking it much, I must say.
> Willow and Xander seem to be the only ones who spend
> leisure time together (like back in the early days, it's heartwarming).
Yep. Bestest buds, after all that's happened, all they've been through,
they're still there for each other at the end of the day. Wonder where
Buffy was. Screwing Boring soilder boy?
> The Scoobies only get together when they have to, when there's work to
> do. Spike puts his finger on the sore spot. And presses on it to make
> the pain worse, just for fun, because he's evil.
Something which they all seem to forget from time to time, oddly. Didn't
that one whole year, plus the kidnapping epsidoe thingy teach any of
them *anything*?!?!?!
> Strange to see Sunnydale High again. At least, I *think* it was
> Sunnydale high. Couldn't recognize the place. Why haven't they torn it
> down by now? Nothing left but dangerous ruins. And did no one ever
> notice the Mayor's remains inside? Or the bare Hellmouth for that
> matter. You'd expect a thorough investigation after such an incident.
That, or a big time coverup. Of course, the police who are 'deeply
stupid' might not know quite where to begin. I wonder if the mayor's a
demon agian....
> Like I said, this ep was actually really bad. But it still managed to be
> entertaining every now and then. Mainly because of the comedy parts.
The comedy carried the ep. Real substance was lacking, depth and
meaningful character development was there in some small degree, and
mostly consisted of reiterating certain known facts. Boreley is
Rileying, Buffy is doomed to badness, Willow feel insecure in Xander out
of place. Oh, and Spike is, btw, evil. In case you were wondering.
> That's the thing with BtVS: even when it's bad it doesn't completely
> suck. Although I think it can do with a lot less slapstick comedy and a
> lot more quality scripts.
Oh, indeed. For all the bitching and moaning and tearing down I've done
in the above little response, it was still farily enjoyable. Big shift
from Hush, though, and more flawed than most eps to date, but it's still
Buffy. And it still beats the pants off of Go Fish. I think.
> And no more writing in threesomes!
Yeah, that's just...gross.
Mattia
ReplyMeister[tm]
P@rick
Mattia Valente wrote:
> "P@rick" wrote:
> > For it is 'Doomed', the king of stinkers. May all lesser stinkers
bow
> > before it.
>
> Well, now you're overdoing it. You *have* seen Go Fish, right? Stuck
in
> there between Passion and Becoming, more or less?
I compared it with Go Fish, Bad Eggs, Ted, you name them. Doomed is the
worst. At least all those other eps have the benefit of still being
situated in highschool, still having Angel, Oz and Cordy around and
lacking Riley.
> > "And hey, even better, we can let Riley save Buffy's
> > life. That way we'll establish that they can work as a team, and
Buffy
> > will have a reason to mount her hero at the first opportunity."
>
> Wohoo!!! Yess!!! More SEX!!!!!!!!
Be careful what you wish for...
> > On the plus side he's able to know and understand what
> > she is and what she does. And they both age, so there's the
possibility
> > of growing old together.
>
> Now *that*, my friend, is true horror. Perchance the writers succeded
> after all, albeit in a roundabout, slightly ctyptic and possibly not
> quite intentional manner.
>
> > On the down side... well... he's just *so*
> > boring. But as far as relationships go in a Slayer's life, this
might be
> > close to ideal.
>
> Broing is good? That's a new one
I'm not saying Riley is ideal because he's boring. But a guy who is able
to understand and accept the consequences of dating a Slayer, and who
can stand direct sunlight, is ideal for Buffy. Riley is such a guy, but
unfortunately he's also a boring Goody-Two-Shoes.
> > The apocalyptic threat was played very badly. There was a total lack
> > of suspense as it was handled as the sidestory. Saying "It's the end
of
> > the world!" doesn't automatically raise our heartbeat.
>
> No, it just elicits an "Again?!?!?!" Not much more. Fair enough, I
> guess..no, wait, it's not. Scratch that. Apocalyps handeled as a
> sidestory can be done well (see 'The Zeppo') but I digress.
Ah, I see you recognize the greatness of that ep. In 'The Zeppo' it was
used as an instrument to contrast between funny and serious, and to give
Xander the opportunity to save the world (without anyone knowing it). In
'Doomed' it was abused and overkill.
> > I wouldn't believe my eyes if a lovely girl like her was standing
there
> > all alone. She deserves so much better than ending up in bed with a
> > dead guy.
>
> Well, obviously. She deserves, say, me!
Well.. yeah... something like that ;o)
> You've been watching ahead on them little DVD thingies, haven't you?
> Admit it!
I admit, but just a little. Besides, I'd wish I already had the S2 DVD's
(Reptile Boy being a S2 ep, remember?).
Bye, Patrick
Mattia Valente
> Wow, Mattia's back!
Well, yes. Wasn't gone *that* long. Then again, internet time is
slightly different from RW time, I guess..
> He just added 9k to an already 10k post!
It's an acquired skill. That, and my server won't let me post a message
if I don't include more new text than quoted text ;o)
> Mattia Valente wrote:
> > "P@rick" wrote:
>
> > > For it is 'Doomed', the king of stinkers. May all lesser stinkers bow
> > > before it.
> >
> > Well, now you're overdoing it. You *have* seen Go Fish, right? Stuck
> > in there between Passion and Becoming, more or less?
>
> I compared it with Go Fish, Bad Eggs, Ted, you name them. Doomed is the
> worst.
Oei. You really don't like it much at all. I haven't watched 'Go Fish'
in ages, since the Beeb aired it, actually, so I may have to readjust
the scale again. The named eps are mostly reasonably funny (Go Fish for
the Cordy/Xander type stuff, Ted was pretty much weak in the finale, Bad
Eggs was pretty much Bad, though..)
> At least all those other eps have the benefit of still being
> situated in highschool, still having Angel, Oz and Cordy around and
> lacking Riley.
Hmmm...when put that way, I guess you do have a point. I don't hate this
ep as much as you do, I think. Still a little better than some of the
other stinkers. Maybe my scale has been reset in the downwards direction
by S4..slightly worrying thought that. Maybe I should go watch Go Fish
again. Only problem is I don't have it on tape. I wish the DVDs would
get released faster...
> > > "And hey, even better, we can let Riley save Buffy's
> > > life. That way we'll establish that they can work as a team, and Buffy
> > > will have a reason to mount her hero at the first opportunity."
> >
> > Wohoo!!! Yess!!! More SEX!!!!!!!!
>
> Be careful what you wish for...
I already know what happened, remember? It's a bit of a sad, slightly
ironic (in the bad sense) comment I made (is that a spoiler?) Ah
well....
> > Broing is good? That's a new one
>
> I'm not saying Riley is ideal because he's boring. But a guy who is able
Ah. Phew. I was getting slightly worried there. Just for a moment, mind
you.
> to understand and accept the consequences of dating a Slayer, and who
> can stand direct sunlight, is ideal for Buffy.
You see, you're putting a lot more faith in Riley (hehehehe...flip the
names around and be amused for a moment...;o) than I am. I'm not sure he
will actually manage to comprehend exactly what it all means. He'll
learn to deal with it, but as for understanding what it means I doubt he
can hold a candle to Angel (you know, the Anti-Riley.)
> Riley is such a guy, but
> unfortunately he's also a boring Goody-Two-Shoes.
Exactly. And he has a number of cheese-like facial expressions.
<It's the end of the world!>
> > No, it just elicits an "Again?!?!?!" Not much more. Fair enough, I
> > guess..no, wait, it's not. Scratch that. Apocalyps handeled as a
> > sidestory can be done well (see 'The Zeppo') but I digress.
>
> Ah, I see you recognize the greatness of that ep.
Well, duh. I for one have always enjoyed that interesting little
excursion into oddity and, occasionally, absurdity. Great fun. Oh, and
Xander gets laid, of course. Imortant character development.
> In 'The Zeppo' it was
> used as an instrument to contrast between funny and serious, and to give
> Xander the opportunity to save the world (without anyone knowing it).
It was indeed. It was truly second tier to the actual story being told,
and was handled extremely well. Xander as the secret (and always to
remain as such) Hero. Although in the end, Oz saved Xander's ass, but
that's a whole other discussion...
> In 'Doomed' it was abused and overkill.
Ya think?
<Willow and mean old Percy comments.
> > Well, obviously. She deserves, say, me!
>
> Well.. yeah... something like that ;o)
:-p
> > You've been watching ahead on them little DVD thingies, haven't you?
> > Admit it!
>
> I admit, but just a little. Besides, I'd wish I already had the S2 DVD's
Hehe...they're irresistable. I've watched every ep at least twice now.
Leaving some breathing room now (it's been a whole 3 weeks without a S1
ep. Watched the entirity of S4, but that's not really the point.)
> (Reptile Boy being a S2 ep, remember?).
Well, yes. What did I say? <checks> Oops. Brain not working quite right.
My bad.
Mattia
ReplyMeister[tm]
Fré Hoogendoorn
>
> "P@rick" wrote:
> >
> > *** SPOILERS Buffy 4.11 Doomed ***
> >
<snip>
> Hmmm...interesting.
>
> > So why the long faces? Well, like Willow said way back in S1:
> >
> > "This is bad".
>
> Yes indeed. Sad but true. Story wasn't up to par, and it's a huge big
> letdown, especially after Hush.
>
<snip>
> > Miserably. For it is 'Doomed', the king of stinkers. May all lesser
> > stinkers bow before it.
>
> Well, now you're overdoing it. You *have* seen Go Fish, right? Stuck in
> there between Passion and Becoming, more or less?
I still think "Beer Bad" was worse, but this came pretty close.
Interesting thing is, that this ep seems to get worse every time you see
it, while BB seems to get marginally better (though not much).
<snip>
>
> > "I know" one of them [the writers] cheered, "why don't we open the Hellmouth and end
> > the world?"
> > "Yeah, great idea! It's been ages since we've done that."
>
> <Willow, Xander, Buffy>Again?!?!?!?!</Willow, Xander, Buffy>
>
> > the two others agreed in unison.
>
> Yes. They must have all been doing a bunch of drugs. Or at least some
> nitrous oxide.
If the writers were on NO, then the actors seem to have been on helium.
What was with the squeaky voices, especially Giles? Still suffering the
after-effects of "Hush"? It sounded like the sound recording had failed
on the takes and were dubbed in afterwards by having each character read
their lines on their own, with no interaction. Which made it sound
rather stilted.
>
> > "And hey, even better, we can let Riley save Buffy's
> > life. That way we'll establish that they can work as a team, and Buffy
> > will have a reason to mount her hero at the first opportunity."
>
> Wohoo!!! Yess!!! More SEX!!!!!!!!
Oh, we ain't seen nothin' yet...
<snip>
>
> > And oh, I promised Riley not to tell
> > anyone about his secret. So surely I can't tell Giles about it, for it
> > would be in the newspapers the next day since he can't keep a secret.
>
> Oh indeed. And it's not like he's going to find out eventually anyway. I
> mean, WTF? Hasn't she learned the 'don't lie to Giles or keep stuff from
> him' lesson yet? That's ended rather unpleasantly in the past.
From a series arc perspective, it's understandable, as the theme of
season 4 is the gang drifting apart and this is supposed to be one of
the major symptoms of this. And it's not like she hasn't done this sort
of thing before. It's just unfortunate it came in an episode like this.
>
> > And he's clever enough to figure it out himself eventually. When he's
> > done talking to me in that strange voice.
>
> Seems that was a voicover, because he had a cold at the time of the
> shoot. Seems he had a cold at the time of the voiceover as well.
Ah, you noticed it too.
<snip>
>
> > But whaddaya know, at the end of the ep Buffy is crawling all over
> > Riley. How come this sudden change of heart? Just because Riley can help
> > Buffy in her fight against evil means that their relationship suddenly
> > is all sunshine and roses? Or is it because of what he said. Riley was
> > right about one thing: it's worth to give it a try (I can't believe I'm
> > saying this!).
>
> Neither can I. It's downright shocking!
> ;o)
He's just a romantic at heart.
<snip> the rest I basically agree with. You guys sure know how to fill a
post.
Fré
Mattia Valente
> Mattia Valente wrote:
<Doomed as the worst ep of all>
> I still think "Beer Bad" was worse, but this came pretty close.
Well, I for one actually enjoyed Beer Bad for what it was, a silly
little not even MotW ep. I like.
> Interesting thing is, that this ep seems to get worse every time you see
> it, while BB seems to get marginally better (though not much).
Right. There's some sort of logic to that, since BB doesn't have any
intrinsic value as far as storyline goes, whilst Doomed at least should
have some, since its a big dealing with revelations episode. In theory
that is..
> > Yes. They must have all been doing a bunch of drugs. Or at least some
> > nitrous oxide.
>
> If the writers were on NO, then the actors seem to have been on helium.
Hehehehe...You mean Giles? I mean, all of the actors, and thie
soundtrack intruments, are on a teensy tiny bit of He (the 4% speedup,
raising voices by .7067 half steps,or semitones if your a weird brit.)
<SNIP ASH and the funny voice stuff, its explained later.>
> > Wohoo!!! Yess!!! More SEX!!!!!!!!
>
> Oh, we ain't seen nothin' yet...
Unfortunately, I'm very well aware of that.
> > Oh indeed. And it's not like he's going to find out eventually anyway. I
> > mean, WTF? Hasn't she learned the 'don't lie to Giles or keep stuff from
> > him' lesson yet? That's ended rather unpleasantly in the past.
>
> From a series arc perspective, it's understandable, as the theme of
> season 4 is the gang drifting apart and this is supposed to be one of
> the major symptoms of this. And it's not like she hasn't done this sort
> of thing before. It's just unfortunate it came in an episode like this.
Right. Just one more stupid thing to do whilst stupidity is busy making
the rounds.
> > Seems that was a voicover, because he had a cold at the time of the
> > shoot. Seems he had a cold at the time of the voiceover as well.
>
> Ah, you noticed it too.
Very hard to miss, really.
> > > Or is it because of what he said. Riley was
> > > right about one thing: it's worth to give it a try (I can't believe I'm
> > > saying this!).
> >
> > Neither can I. It's downright shocking!
> > ;o)
>
> He's just a romantic at heart.
Well, ok, but it's still shocking!
> <snip> the rest I basically agree with. You guys sure know how to fill a
> post.
It's an acquired skill. Grows with practice.
Mattia
ReplyMeister[tm]
Finally back in NL, downloading 900-odd emails...
P@rick
> "P@rick" wrote:
> > I'm not saying Riley is ideal because he's boring. But a guy who is
able
> > to understand and accept the consequences of dating a Slayer, and
who
> > can stand direct sunlight, is ideal for Buffy.
>
> You see, you're putting a lot more faith in Riley (hehehehe...flip the
> names around and be amused for a moment...;o) than I am. I'm not sure
he
> will actually manage to comprehend exactly what it all means. He'll
> learn to deal with it, but as for understanding what it means I doubt
he
> can hold a candle to Angel (you know, the Anti-Riley.)
But at least Riley doesn't freak out when his soon-to-be-girlfriend
tells him she hunts vampires and demons. He has the same 'hobby'. He
might not grasp the mystical sides of the Slayer story, but at least
Buffy won't have to make up excuses about petroleum when she doesn't
have time for a date.
Bye, Patrick
Marc
"P@rick" <P.J.Mee...@students.fss.VampWillow.uu.nl> schreef in bericht
news:93f31q$pha$3...@news.surfnet.nl...
Yeah - but think about, real hard will ya!
(Marc indulging in a long silence - then snapping out of it!)
The impression Riley makes is that he's a wimp - you're agreeing with me on
that part right!
Then I rather had a student wimp - if you know what I mean. Riley bangs and
slams alongside Buffy trying to impress her - it would've been more
interesting to see Buffy making up excuses, 'till finally her new boyfriend
figures it out - a dreadful revelation! (Now there we have a few c/u camera
moments!)
He's not an opposite of Angel, but stays far away from Riley - this fella is
a normal guy! (Details: shy but strong of character, has pride and this
boyish, clumsy feeling he wants to protect his new mistress but realises
that he's no match for demons - so there Buffy dominates him, and then they
go to the excepting stuff and finally they see things in character and this
boyfrined helps, in his own way, Buffy to survive.)
Riley is an earthdown guy - he could never in his little mind comprehend the
force that is within Buffy, it's to abstract for him!
And I regret to say (well, sort of) that they never polished that Iowa-kid
into someone whose more doubtfull, who asks questions, is filled with
dualism. But 'till he reaches that level (if he ever will) he looks just
like he is: a bad joke.
Marc
Mattia Valente
I'll throw in some spoilerspace for eps after Doomed (All of S4) so I
don't have to be rreally really vague.
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> > tells him she hunts vampires and demons. He has the same 'hobby'. He
> > might not grasp the mystical sides of the Slayer story, but at least
> > Buffy won't have to make up excuses about petroleum when she doesn't
> > have time for a date.
>
> Yeah - but think about, real hard will ya!
>
> (Marc indulging in a long silence - then snapping out of it!)
Hehehe..
> The impression Riley makes is that he's a wimp - you're agreeing with me on
> that part right!
More or less. Physcially, far from it, he's a big manly strong man, a
little oafish and teutonic, but no wimpy, by my definition. The word is
boring. Strenght he's got plenty of, for a mere human. A little too
much, one might say, since he fared pretty decently against Angel in
tYF. Pills have something to with with perhaps?
> Then I rather had a student wimp - if you know what I mean. Riley bangs and
> slams alongside Buffy trying to impress her -
Not for long, though. You can't really compete with a Slayer. He gets
his ass kicked and his ego bruised pretty badly, but her pretty much
learns to deal with it on short notice. Which is a good thing.
> it would've been more
> interesting to see Buffy making up excuses, 'till finally her new boyfriend
> figures it out - a dreadful revelation! (Now there we have a few c/u camera
> moments!)
In calssic soap-opera style? We had a little of the excuses game with
B&R, and also with Scott Hope, alsting a few eps, and Owen, lasting just
the one. Buffy can't lie worth crap, so that could get annoying. SHe
doesn't *have* to have a boyfriend all the time, you know..
> He's not an opposite of Angel, but stays far away from Riley - this fella is
> a normal guy! (Details: shy but strong of character, has pride and this
> boyish, clumsy feeling he wants to protect his new mistress but realises
> that he's no match for demons - so there Buffy dominates him, and then they
> go to the excepting stuff and finally they see things in character and this
> boyfrined helps, in his own way, Buffy to survive.)
You do realise that you've pretty much described Xander here, right?
Except, possibly, for some of the pride part, but that's mostly a S4
drawback thingy.
> Riley is an earthdown guy -
You mean simple, but were trying to say down-to-earth (which is, BTW, a
positive trait. Not a negative one. In my view, anyway.)
> he could never in his little mind comprehend the
> force that is within Buffy, it's to abstract for him!
He'll learn the hard way, more or less. It'll still be a bit of a
struggle. The whole magicks thing, supernatural destiny bit, that's too
much for his regimental soldier mind to comprehend.
> And I regret to say (well, sort of) that they never polished that Iowa-kid
> into someone whose more doubtfull, who asks questions, is filled with
> dualism.
He's not one for the gray areas, as he said himself. He's definately
filled with doubt, and has a lot of black/white good/evil views, which
are a little shaken up in NMR, which is a good thing. He's growing a
little as a character.
> But 'till he reaches that level (if he ever will) he looks just
> like he is: a bad joke.
I doubt he'll reach it completely. He's still boring.
Mattia
ReplyMeister[tm]
Marc
"Mattia Valente" <mae.v...@std.vu.nl> schreef in bericht
news:3A5B45D9...@std.vu.nl...
Mattia ends with the phrase:
> I doubt he'll reach it completely. He's still boring.
Why? If you can so differentiate his character, giving him "depth" more than
I can (that's for sure), why is he still boring then? Nothing can be more
fatal than following the preferences of others you know! Is it because he's
* not* Angel? Or does he just haven't got any value to you but it's hard to
neglect him considering he's Buffy boyfriend so they have a lot of scenes?
I - in my poor English - tried to explain he lacks emotion. If I see any
other BtVS-character I can feel with them, - or, being more poetical: they
condens on my eyes - and compared to that Riley just does not illuminate.
Other than that Marc Blucas with his American Smile as an actor is not that
impressing as Riley, - I'm missing an expression on his babyface.
Marc
Mattia Valente
Thing is, he's a bit of a hopeless case. He's been 'growing' and
'changing' all through the second half of the season (4, that is..) and
he's had moments of non-boringness, but he always returns with a
vengance. Is it in his nature? Perhaps. Can they change the character so
that he becomes intruiging and charismatic? Possibly, given time, and
only to a certain degree.
> Nothing can be more
> fatal than following the preferences of others you know!
Oh, it's very much my preference as well. Just rewatched the entirety of
S4 over christmas break, and he got more annoying than he already was.
> Is it because he's * not* Angel?
To be perfectly honest, in no small part, yes, it is. I'd have a little
of this with any new beau, I think, but Riley is really annoying.
Simplistic mind set, black/white everything (getting better, that..) big
dumb soldier talk thing, farmer boy kinda guy.
> Or does he just haven't got any value to you but it's hard to
> neglect him considering he's Buffy boyfriend so they have a lot of scenes?
Well, that too. There's little added value (As opposed to Angel, where
there tends to be a lot more. This becomes glaringly obvious when you
see them confronted with one another. The chemistry between DB and SMG
is better than MB and SMGs, IMNSHO.)
> I - in my poor English - tried to explain he lacks emotion.
He lacks interesting or deeply conflicting emotions. There's the
internal struggle about who to choose for, but that's over fast, as is
his insecurity about who Buffy loves, etc. etc. etc. There and gone
again.
> If I see any
> other BtVS-character I can feel with them, - or, being more poetical: they
> condens on my eyes - and compared to that Riley just does not illuminate.
Very true. He's often to be seen with the same slightly confused (my
reading of it) look on his face. Or at least blank.
> Other than that Marc Blucas with his American Smile as an actor is not that
> impressing as Riley, - I'm missing an expression on his babyface.
Right. That too. This said, I don't think Blucas is bad, but the
character leaves a lot to be desired. Forrest was by far more
interesting, and Graham almost was. They were/are all slightly
stereotypical variations on the soliderboy motif, though. IMHO.
Damn...now I sound like I hate Riley's guts totally and completely. It's
not really that, he's too bland to hate, most of the time. Annoying at
best, then he goes and says something incredibly stupid (well,
simplistically militaristic, which equals stupid, in my book. Again and
again) and gets even more annoying. The most exciting thing he did was
walk out on Walsh in tIiT.
Mattia
ReplyMeister[tm]
P@rick
>
> "P@rick" wrote:
> > But at least Riley doesn't freak out when his soon-to-be-girlfriend
> > tells him she hunts vampires and demons. He has the same 'hobby'. He
> > might not grasp the mystical sides of the Slayer story, but at least
> > Buffy won't have to make up excuses about petroleum when she doesn't
> > have time for a date.
>
> The impression Riley makes is that he's a wimp - you're agreeing with
me
> on that part right!
Nooo man! Studley is my big hero. He's my role model. I want to be
exactly like him. I even had my hair done just like him. And I've shaven
off all my bodyhair. And now I'm taking steroids to grow as big and
strong as him. And I eat cornflakes and popcorn all day long. And I'm
memorizing all his great lines and jokes. Here, let me show you:
"I'm sorry, I've forgotten my manners in all the dumb cushion..."
Damn! Almost had it right this time...
Bye, Ri.. Patrick
Mattia Valente
> Marc wrote:
> > "P@rick" wrote:
> > > But at least Riley doesn't freak out when his soon-to-be-girlfriend
> > > tells him she hunts vampires and demons. He has the same 'hobby'. He
> > > might not grasp the mystical sides of the Slayer story, but at least
> > > Buffy won't have to make up excuses about petroleum when she doesn't
> > > have time for a date.
> >
> > The impression Riley makes is that he's a wimp - you're agreeing with me
> > on that part right!
>
> Nooo man! Studley is my big hero. He's my role model. I want to be
> exactly like him. I even had my hair done just like him.
Uh...you got hair attachments? Last I looked it was a little too short
for that kind of treatment..
> And I've shaven
> off all my bodyhair.
Uh...P@rick? Feeling alright?
> And now I'm taking steroids to grow as big and
> strong as him.
Hehehehehe....doing pushups in the morning and not wearing any
underpants? That part too? Do you have a pager yet?
> And I eat cornflakes and popcorn all day long. And I'm
Uhhh...riiight. You should be eating heavily medicated food, you know..
> memorizing all his great lines and jokes. Here, let me show you:
>
> "I'm sorry, I've forgotten my manners in all the dumb cushion..."
>
> Damn! Almost had it right this time...
Hehe...
> Bye, Ri.. Patrick
And in conclusion,
ROTFLMAO!!!
Phew...that was fun. This one's getting filed away..
Mattia
ReplyMeister[tm]