Buffy 6.17 Normal Again (SPOILERS)
Saskia
Right, let's start with some spoiler space so that the spoiler sluts have
some time to feel guilty while scrolling....
Spoilers coming up for Buffy's episode 17, Season Six.
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KIDDING!!!! :-PP
Okay, so I'm being silly. I don't have the ep yet and I won't for at least
several hours but I thought I'd make you all jealous.
--
Saskia ;-)
Niall Harrison
> Right, let's start with some spoiler space so that the spoiler sluts have
> some time to feel guilty while scrolling....
<snip>
I don't feel jealous at all. I already knew I wasn't going to be first
this week, 'cause my contact has gone home for the holidays. :-P
Niall
--
I watched the stars crash in the sea.
Jonathan Black
LOL, okay nice one. Didn't really work on me, I've just seen the
ep and I didn't see your post until now.
Not sure what to make of this episode. I think I liked it. The
mental institution things was interesting. In the beginning, I
caught myself thinking oh cool, this could mean the whole of S6
was an hallucination and never actually happened! Then the guy
said she'd been there for six years and I thought oh, that would
mean the entire series never actually happened, that would be
going a bit far ;-)
Bye,
--
jonathaN
Jonathan Black
> :-O You read posts about episodes you haven't watched yet?
> You spoiler slut you!
Good point. He actually scrolled past the spoiler space, didn't
he? I can tell.
/me thwaps Niall
Bye,
--
jonathaN
Saskia
Darn. Oh well :)
> Not sure what to make of this episode. I think I liked it. The
> mental institution things was interesting. In the beginning, I
> caught myself thinking oh cool, this could mean the whole of S6
> was an hallucination and never actually happened! Then the guy
> said she'd been there for six years and I thought oh, that would
> mean the entire series never actually happened, that would be
> going a bit far ;-)
Heh. I was having a major Dallas deja-vu there (but I guess most of you
never watched that show so you won't have been as bothered by it as me.)
Interesting theme although not very original. But it was kind of fun
watching Buffy go "a slayer in a world full of demons and vampires? that's
ridiculous". Seeing Joyce was a big surprise (I wasn't paying attention to
the guest star names) and Buffy - yet again - managed to make me all weepy.
Gawd, this season is depressing, innit? I'm really really hoping Buffy meant
it when she agreed (so endearingly) with her mum who told her she could rely
on her own inner strength. So now we can kick those nerds' asses out of
Sunnydale (cept Jonathan, he can stay cos he's a sweetie) and have some fun.
Willow and Tara can get back together, like Anya and Xander, Giles can come
home now, Spike should either leave or die and we'll have some *fun* five
episodes.
Or not... are there people out there who actually think Anya went vengeance
demony again? It's possible I guess... then Spike can call her, wish the
chip away and become evil again. Then he can die ;)
--
Saskia
I wish you were a fish in my dish
Jonathan Black
>> Not sure what to make of this episode. I think I liked it.
>> The mental institution things was interesting. In the
>> beginning, I caught myself thinking oh cool, this could
>> mean the whole of S6 was an hallucination and never
>> actually happened! Then the guy said she'd been there for
>> six years and I thought oh, that would mean the entire
>> series never actually happened, that would be going a bit
>> far ;-)
>
> Heh. I was having a major Dallas deja-vu there (but I guess
> most of you never watched that show so you won't have been
> as bothered by it as me.)
Nah, never watched that, no.
> Interesting theme although not very original. But it was
> kind of fun watching Buffy go "a slayer in a world full of
> demons and vampires? that's ridiculous".
Yeah, not only that, but also the way the doctor was talking
about Buffy's whole 'fantasy world'. At one point, it was almost
as if he was talking to the writers!
"Buffy, you used to create these grand villians to battle
against. And now what is it? Just ordinairy students you
went to high school with. No gods, no monsters, just three
pathetic little men, who like playing with toys."
> Seeing Joyce was a big surprise (I wasn't paying attention to
> the guest star names)
I didn't notice her in the credits either! At the end I had to
go back and check she was actually in there. I guess I was too
busy looking at Willow or something:
http://deadlock.et.tudelft.nl/~jonathan/6ABB17-willow.jpg
So, yes, that was a surprise :)
> and Buffy - yet again - managed to make me all
> weepy. Gawd, this season is depressing, innit? I'm really
> really hoping Buffy meant it when she agreed (so
> endearingly) with her mum who told her she could rely on
> her own inner strength. So now we can kick those nerds'
> asses out of Sunnydale (cept Jonathan, he can stay cos he's
> a sweetie) and have some fun. Willow and Tara can get back
> together, like Anya and Xander, Giles can come home now,
> Spike should either leave or die and we'll have some *fun*
> five episodes.
Yes, but on the other had I feel like we've been saying things
like that for a couple of episodes now, 'hopefully this is over
now, hopefully she means it this time, hopefully we can get back
to normal again now'...
> Or not... are there people out there who actually think
> Anya went vengeance demony again? It's possible I guess...
Yes I think it is very possible. As it stands, Anya did not
appear in this episode at all, so she's definitely cooking
something up... :)
> then Spike can call her, wish the chip away and become evil
> again. Then he can die ;)
Riiight...
Bye,
--
jonathaN
Saskia
> Saskia wrote:
> > Jonathan Black said:
> >> Saskia wrote:
Hey look, our own little thread! Isn't that nice?
> > Heh. I was having a major Dallas deja-vu there (but I guess
> Nah, never watched that, no.
Didn't think so. We were waaaaay into Season #dunno where all kinds of weird
things were happening, someone even got killed and it all turned out to be
Pam's dream and everything that had happened was reset. Pfffff! Major cop-
out.
> Yeah, not only that, but also the way the doctor was talking
> about Buffy's whole 'fantasy world'. At one point, it was almost
> as if he was talking to the writers!
>
> "Buffy, you used to create these grand villians to battle
> against. And now what is it? Just ordinairy students you
> went to high school with. No gods, no monsters, just three
> pathetic little men, who like playing with toys."
Yes :)
> > Seeing Joyce was a big surprise (I wasn't paying attention to
> > the guest star names)
>
> I didn't notice her in the credits either! At the end I had to
> go back and check she was actually in there. I guess I was too
> busy looking at Willow or something:
>
> http://deadlock.et.tudelft.nl/~jonathan/6ABB17-willow.jpg
LOL. So that must've been it. For me too cos I remember thinking how nice
Willow looks this season and how no-one ever seems to mention that anymore.
<sob>I miss P@rick!!</sob>
> > and we'll have some *fun* five episodes.
>
> Yes, but on the other had I feel like we've been saying things
> like that for a couple of episodes now, 'hopefully this is over
> now, hopefully she means it this time, hopefully we can get back
> to normal again now'...
I know. I was trying to regain some positivity ;) but this time I'm more
hopeful than I've been in a long time.
> > Or not... are there people out there who actually think
> > Anya went vengeance demony again? It's possible I guess...
>
> Yes I think it is very possible. As it stands, Anya did not
> appear in this episode at all, so she's definitely cooking
> something up... :)
Hmmm, not necessarily. There are plenty of other things that Anya has grown
to like, as a human being. Like money, and money. Oh and, erm... money. Hmm.
It seems a bit too obvious, I think, that she would go back to D'Hoffryn...
> > then Spike can call her, wish the chip away and become evil
> > again. Then he can die ;)
>
> Riiight...
Hey, it could happen...
--
Saskia
A noise annoys an oyster, but a noisy noise annoys an oyster more!
Jonathan Black
> Jonathan Black said:
>> Saskia wrote:
>> > Jonathan Black said:
>> >> Saskia wrote:
>
> Hey look, our own little thread! Isn't that nice?
'Torentje!', even.
Yeah I have sort of heard about it. It's one of these things
that's part of the collective consciousness or something, so I
kind of know about it even though I've never seen Dallas.
>> Yeah, not only that, but also the way the doctor was
>> talking about Buffy's whole 'fantasy world'. At one point,
>> it was almost as if he was talking to the writers!
>>
>> "Buffy, you used to create these grand villians to
>> battle against. And now what is it? Just ordinairy
>> students you went to high school with. No gods, no
>> monsters, just three pathetic little men, who like
>> playing with toys."
>
> Yes :)
This could open up a whole VST[tm]-ish can of worms, if you
think about it. I mean, that doctor, Buffy's parents, they
seemed to actually exist independently of Buffy, whereas they
are supposed to be just in her mind, hallucinations created by
that demon, right? I mean, what exactly were we seeing at the
end there? The doctor says "I'm sorry, there's no reaction at
all. I'm afraid we lost her.", Joyce starts to cry. It's as
though that Joyce, that mental institution, that reality, really
exist after all. Not sure how I feel about this being presented
this way. I guess you could call it creative licence or
something, but still, hmmm...
>> > Seeing Joyce was a big surprise (I wasn't paying
>> > attention to the guest star names)
>>
>> I didn't notice her in the credits either! At the end I
>> had to go back and check she was actually in there. I
>> guess I was too busy looking at Willow or something:
>>
>> http://deadlock.et.tudelft.nl/~jonathan/6ABB17-willow.jpg
>
> LOL. So that must've been it. For me too cos I remember
> thinking how nice Willow looks this season and how no-one
> ever seems to mention that anymore. <sob>I miss
> P@rick!!</sob>
Yeah she does look nice. And not sure how she's doing it, but
she often seems to have actual breasts now too. This shot is a
great example of that.
>> Yes, but on the other had I feel like we've been saying
>> things like that for a couple of episodes now, 'hopefully
>> this is over now, hopefully she means it this time,
>> hopefully we can get back to normal again now'...
>
> I know. I was trying to regain some positivity ;)
Oh, right, that's cool, I'm all for that :)
> but this time I'm more hopeful than I've been in a long time.
And talking of long times, it's time to start realizing that the
next episode really isn't until April 30th now...
>> > Or not... are there people out there who actually think
>> > Anya went vengeance demony again? It's possible I
>> > guess...
>>
>> Yes I think it is very possible. As it stands, Anya did
>> not appear in this episode at all, so she's definitely
>> cooking something up... :)
>
> Hmmm, not necessarily. There are plenty of other things
> that Anya has grown to like, as a human being. Like money,
> and money. Oh and, erm... money. Hmm. It seems a bit too
> obvious, I think, that she would go back to D'Hoffryn...
I'm just saying it's a possibilty. As a non-spoiler slut, I am
quite happy to simply wait and see wether it actually turns out
to happen or not.
>> > then Spike can call her, wish the chip away and become
>> > evil again. Then he can die ;)
>>
>> Riiight...
>
> Hey, it could happen...
Yep. And Buffy could have sex with Spike. [1] No, wait.
Bye,
--
jonathaN
[1] A year ago, I could have totally said this here, it would
have been just as ridiculous as Saskia's scenario I am trying to
ridicule, if not more so. Scary thought, eh?
busybee
> Niall Harrison said:
>
> > Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Saskia wrote:
> >
> > > Right, let's start with some spoiler space so that the spoiler sluts
have
> > > some time to feel guilty while scrolling....
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > I don't feel jealous at all. I already knew I wasn't going to be first
> > this week, 'cause my contact has gone home for the holidays. :-P
>
slut
> you!
>
ive seen it! ive seen it! and believe me , this time it is GOOD
see ya
busybee
sorry for the not very useful post, will do better after i read a few :)
Jonathan Black
> Jonathan Black said:
>> Saskia wrote:
>> > Jonathan Black said:
>> >> Saskia wrote:
>> >> > Jonathan Black said:
>> >> >> Saskia wrote:
>> >
>> > Hey look, our own little thread! Isn't that nice?
>>
>> 'Torentje!', even.
>
<looks up the correct response in 'LRTs[tm] for Dummies'>
Woo!
> There's another episode that was a bit like this. Remember
> that STTNG episode with Riker going back and forth from
> that play to some kind of prison or something? I don't
> remember well, only that it was a scary episode.
Ah yeah, 'Frame of Mind'? S6? This was one of the first TNG eps
I saw, I remember liking it a lot.
>> This could open up a whole VST[tm]-ish can of worms,
>
> Yay, VST[tm]!
>
>> if you
>> think about it. I mean, that doctor, Buffy's parents, they
>> seemed to actually exist independently of Buffy, whereas
>> they are supposed to be just in her mind, hallucinations
>> created by that demon, right? I mean, what exactly were we
>> seeing at the end there? The doctor says "I'm sorry,
>> there's no reaction at all. I'm afraid we lost her.",
>> Joyce starts to cry. It's as though that Joyce, that
>> mental institution, that reality, really exist after all.
>> Not sure how I feel about this being presented this way. I
>> guess you could call it creative licence or something, but
>> still, hmmm...
>
> You know, this scene made me remember another show. DS9's
> "Far Beyond The Stars", with Sisko making up the whole
> DS9-verse...
That is an excellent episode too.
> pretty much the same thing, again making you
> wonder what's real and what's not. Especially since they
> ended the episode with that scene you mention here,
They didn't do that on the DS9 ep though, IIRC, it ended back in
the normal DS9 world.
> with the writers making us wonder if Buffy has indeed been
> making up this whole Buffyverse. Not sure if this counts as
> VST'y though. Otherwise we would have seen Marti or Joss
> walking around ;)
Yeah, I'm just wondering how exactly to make sense of it
*without* assuming that Buffy has been making up the Buffyverse
all along. Still don't quite see how that last scene can exist.
Is it cause Buffy hasn't taken the antidote yet? Are we to
assume that she is seeing this scene in her mind? Cause if she
isn't, who is?
>> >> http://deadlock.et.tudelft.nl/~jonathan/6ABB17-willow.jpg
>> >
>> > LOL. So that must've been it. For me too cos I remember
>> > thinking how nice Willow looks this season and how
>> > no-one ever seems to mention that anymore. <sob>I miss
>> > P@rick!!</sob>
>>
>> Yeah she does look nice. And not sure how she's doing it,
>> but she often seems to have actual breasts now too. This
>> shot is a great example of that.
>
> Can't say I was paying attention to that
Really? Why not?
> and I still don't really see it,
Yeah, you can't really see it from that still shot, but if you
look at the scene I remember thinking the outfit she is wearing
there was bringing out her boobs quite nicely :) But really I'm
just trying to see how many hits I can get on the above URL, ;-)
> but wonderbras do wonders you know ;)
Hurray for wonderbras!!!
Ahum, sorry, got a bit carried away.
>> > I know. I was trying to regain some positivity ;)
>>
>> Oh, right, that's cool, I'm all for that :)
>
> It's The Positivity Club!
alt.buffy.europe.blind-to-the-flaws-of-the-show, har har har...
;-P
> > And talking of long times, it's time to start realizing
> > that the next episode really isn't until April 30th now...
>
> :-(
Ah well, I'm sure it'll be worth the wait. Five eps in a row
then, hopefully a kick-ass finale, and then it's time for the
summer break again, possibly for the last time for this
particular show...
>> > Hmmm, not necessarily. There are plenty of other things
>> > that Anya has grown to like, as a human being. Like
>> > money, and money. Oh and, erm... money. Hmm. It seems a
>> > bit too obvious, I think, that she would go back to
>> > D'Hoffryn...
>>
>> I'm just saying it's a possibilty. As a non-spoiler slut,
>> I am quite happy to simply wait and see wether it actually
>> turns out to happen or not.
>
> Me too. Still, it's fun to speculate.
Sure.
>> >> > then Spike can call her, wish the chip away and
>> >> > become evil again. Then he can die ;)
>> >>
>> >> Riiight...
>> >
>> > Hey, it could happen...
>>
>> Yep. And Buffy could have sex with Spike. [1] No, wait.
>
>> [1] A year ago, I could have totally said this here, it
>> would have been just as ridiculous as Saskia's scenario I
>> am trying to ridicule, if not more so. Scary thought, eh?
>
> So go on, do some more speculating! You're good at it :)
Well, okay, if you really want to know, I think by this time
next year, Xander may well be married, but not to Anya. No,
to... wait for it... Dawn!
Dun dun duuuuuuuuuuuun!
Bye ;-)
--
jonathaN
Stephen Walker
"Saskia" <sas...@nksf.nl> wrote in message
news:MPG.16f7f3103...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>
>
> Right, let's start with some spoiler space so that the spoiler sluts have
> some time to feel guilty while scrolling....
>
> Spoilers coming up for Buffy's episode 17, Season Six.
Real spoilers this time.
>
>
> b
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> n
> o
> r
> m
> a
> l
> a
> n
> y
> w
> a
> y
> ?
> ?
> ?
>
>
>
Have you been reading spoilers? (points to the text in the spoiler space).
Well, before I read anyone else's comments, I'll just say: NICE episode!
I liked this a lot. I'm sure this kind of thing has been done before in
genre shows, but I don't remember seeing any so it was fresh for me.
Excellent debut for the writer, Jossi-Wan has taught him well. Some subtle
nods to the fans. MMMmmmm, Tara when she first appeared.
Now that the possibility has been raised that Sunnydale etc is Buffy's
delusional fantasy, they are going to have to resolve conclusively. I'm
perfectly happy for them to keep it hanging for longer if they have more
good stuff to do first though.
SMG was very good, such an expressive face. Lovely to see Joyce/Kristine
again, and they even managed to get Hank away from the prairie ;)
Now we are into rerun-hell damnit! /me wants more eps
Stephen
Saskia
Oh my god, you'd almost think so wouldn't you? But no, I'm a *very* anti
spoiler slut. I don't know the English word for geheelonthouder... but
that's what I am.
> I liked this a lot. I'm sure this kind of thing has been done before in
> genre shows, but I don't remember seeing any so it was fresh for me.
> Excellent debut for the writer, Jossi-Wan has taught him well. Some subtle
> nods to the fans.
Ah yes, I was going to check if I had seen that name before. Obviously not.
> MMMmmmm, Tara when she first appeared.
/me slaps Stephen. Snap out of it. (sorry, had to be done...)
> Now that the possibility has been raised that Sunnydale etc is Buffy's
> delusional fantasy, they are going to have to resolve conclusively. I'm
> perfectly happy for them to keep it hanging for longer if they have more
> good stuff to do first though.
So you really think an alternate universe was suggested? Because I didn't,
really... I thought that that demon was some kind of wish-demon, where the
boys could give him a scenario that he could then implant in Buffy's brain,
so to speak... as a big scheme to make her get rid of her friends. But come
to think of if, it wouldn't make sense that they would describe themselves
as pathetic little men, who like playing with toys... that doesn't make
sense. Hmmm.
> Now we are into rerun-hell damnit! /me wants more eps
I know.... :-(
--
Saskia
The outside world just doesn't get the joke. Fishism.
Saskia
> Saskia wrote:
> > Jonathan Black said:
> >> Saskia wrote:
> >> > Jonathan Black said:
> >> >> Saskia wrote:
> >> >> > Jonathan Black said:
> >> >> >> Saskia wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hey look, our own little thread! Isn't that nice?
> >>
> >> 'Torentje!', even.
> >
> > Yay!!
>
> <looks up the correct response in 'LRTs[tm] for Dummies'>
>
> Woo!
Oh no no no no no this is *not* an LRT. This is just a Torentje. Nothing
more, nothing less. One: haven't seen any fish flying around yet and Two: we
are having a *normal* discussion. A civil one. Without any fish whatsoever.
Yes, that's the one. Cool. Must rewatch it some time. Perhaps the BBC will
get around to it.
> > You know, this scene made me remember another show. DS9's
> > "Far Beyond The Stars", with Sisko making up the whole
> > DS9-verse...
>
> That is an excellent episode too.
Even better. Way way better, even.
> > pretty much the same thing, again making you
> > wonder what's real and what's not. Especially since they
> > ended the episode with that scene you mention here,
>
> They didn't do that on the DS9 ep though, IIRC, it ended back in
> the normal DS9 world.
Well yeah, but still, made you wonder. And especially later, when the
alternate Sisko came back in some later episode.
> Yeah, I'm just wondering how exactly to make sense of it
> *without* assuming that Buffy has been making up the Buffyverse
> all along. Still don't quite see how that last scene can exist.
> Is it cause Buffy hasn't taken the antidote yet? Are we to
> assume that she is seeing this scene in her mind? Cause if she
> isn't, who is?
Well, as I said in my reply to Stephen, I don't think Buffy made that
institution stuff up. And I don't think the institution-Buffy made the
Buffyverse (as we know it) up. I think it was all a big scheme...
Other possibility: if the Buffyverse is the truth and the institution was
indeed only in Buffy's mind, then that last scene was just a final goodbye
in Buffy's mind. Closing the door to her state of mind of the past months
and closing the door to her mum and dad.
The latter sounds the most plausible I think (as opposed to the tree stooges
being behind it all) and if it is, it's a pretty cool metaphore. Let's hope
that some light will be shed on this. Either in future eps or from the
writer or producer on the betabronze.
> >> >> http://deadlock.et.tudelft.nl/~jonathan/6ABB17-willow.jpg
> >> Yeah she does look nice. And not sure how she's doing it,
> >> but she often seems to have actual breasts now too. This
> >> shot is a great example of that.
> >
> > Can't say I was paying attention to that
>
> Really? Why not?
Well, because I usually don't... it's not a particular area of interest to
me ;-)
> > and I still don't really see it,
>
> Yeah, you can't really see it from that still shot, but if you
> look at the scene I remember thinking the outfit she is wearing
> there was bringing out her boobs quite nicely :)
<rolls eyes>
> But really I'm
> just trying to see how many hits I can get on the above URL, ;-)
So we'll leave it in a bit longer then.
> > but wonderbras do wonders you know ;)
>
> Hurray for wonderbras!!!
>
> Ahum, sorry, got a bit carried away.
Gee. Don't ever let me see you getting carried away completely. That must be
a really scary sight!
<d+r>
> >> > I know. I was trying to regain some positivity ;)
> >>
> >> Oh, right, that's cool, I'm all for that :)
> >
> > It's The Positivity Club!
>
> alt.buffy.europe.blind-to-the-flaws-of-the-show, har har har...
>
> ;-P
Um, yay?
> Ah well, I'm sure it'll be worth the wait. Five eps in a row
> then, hopefully a kick-ass finale, and then it's time for the
> summer break again, possibly for the last time for this
> particular show...
Awwwww don't say that! It breaks my heart :'-((
> > So go on, do some more speculating! You're good at it :)
>
> Well, okay, if you really want to know, I think by this time
> next year, Xander may well be married, but not to Anya. No,
> to... wait for it... Dawn!
<faints>
Aaaaarrrgghh!!
> Dun dun duuuuuuuuuuuun!
Pffffffft.
--
Saskia
Never trust second thoughts. Next thing you know there'll be a third and a
fourth...you'll be thinking forever! Fishism.
Jonathan Black
> Jonathan Black said:
>> Saskia wrote:
>> > Jonathan Black said:
>> >> Saskia wrote:
>> >> > Jonathan Black said:
>> >> >> Saskia wrote:
>> >> >> > Jonathan Black said:
>> >> >> >> Saskia wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Hey look, our own little thread! Isn't that nice?
>> >>
>> >> 'Torentje!', even.
>> >
>> > Yay!!
>>
>> <looks up the correct response in 'LRTs[tm] for Dummies'>
>>
>> Woo!
>
> Oh no no no no no this is *not* an LRT. This is just a
> Torentje. Nothing more, nothing less. One: haven't seen any
> fish flying around yet and Two: we are having a *normal*
> discussion. A civil one. Without any fish whatsoever.
Perhaps, but for me, this is pretty heavy stuff. You know,
having to come up with a response to 'Yay!', rather than just
snipping that part of the thread because it has run its course.
Thanks for responding with this little paragraph about it *not*
being an LRT[tm], now I can suffice with this one about it being
pretty LRT[tm]-ish *for me*, rather than having to come up with
another pointless response. Or did you actually just do this to
hide the fact that you could think of no response to my 'Woo!'
yourself?
Eventually they will, I guess. They are running through the 7-
season series for the third time now I think. I first saw this
episode when they were still on their first run.
>> > You know, this scene made me remember another show.
>> > DS9's "Far Beyond The Stars", with Sisko making up the
>> > whole DS9-verse...
>>
>> That is an excellent episode too.
>
> Even better. Way way better, even.
It's a classic :)
>> > pretty much the same thing, again making you
>> > wonder what's real and what's not. Especially since they
>> > ended the episode with that scene you mention here,
>>
>> They didn't do that on the DS9 ep though, IIRC, it ended
>> back in the normal DS9 world.
>
> Well yeah, but still, made you wonder. And especially
> later, when the alternate Sisko came back in some later
> episode.
Oh right, I still have to see Season 7 some time. It got lost in
the switchover from taping onto VHS to downloading VCDs.
>> Yeah, I'm just wondering how exactly to make sense of it
>> *without* assuming that Buffy has been making up the
>> Buffyverse all along. Still don't quite see how that last
>> scene can exist. Is it cause Buffy hasn't taken the
>> antidote yet? Are we to assume that she is seeing this
>> scene in her mind? Cause if she isn't, who is?
>
> Well, as I said in my reply to Stephen, I don't think Buffy
> made that institution stuff up. And I don't think the
> institution-Buffy made the Buffyverse (as we know it) up. I
> think it was all a big scheme...
>
> Other possibility: if the Buffyverse is the truth and the
> institution was indeed only in Buffy's mind, then that last
> scene was just a final goodbye in Buffy's mind. Closing the
> door to her state of mind of the past months and closing
> the door to her mum and dad.
>
> The latter sounds the most plausible I think (as opposed to
> the tree stooges being behind it all) and if it is, it's a
> pretty cool metaphore.
Yes, that works. This is pretty much how I am taking it too I
guess. I mean we know the Nerds summoned the demon, and that it
was the demon that was causing Buffy's hallucinations, right? It
just ins't exactly clear who 'wrote' the hallucinations. The
Nerds may have done so to a degree, but not down to the last
detail. I guess Buffy just subconsciously filled in the blanks
herself or something.
[http://deadlock.et.tudelft.nl/~jonathan/6ABB17-willow.jpg]
>> >> Yeah she does look nice. And not sure how she's doing
>> >> it, but she often seems to have actual breasts now too.
>> >> This shot is a great example of that.
>> >
>> > Can't say I was paying attention to that
>>
>> Really? Why not?
>
> Well, because I usually don't... it's not a particular area
> of interest to me ;-)
Ah. Okay, fair enough I guess. You should try it sometime
though. Boobs rock ass.
>> > and I still don't really see it,
>>
>> Yeah, you can't really see it from that still shot, but if
>> you look at the scene I remember thinking the outfit she
>> is wearing there was bringing out her boobs quite nicely
>> :)
>
> <rolls eyes>
What?!
>> But really I'm just trying to see how many hits I can get on
>> the above URL, ;-)
>
> So we'll leave it in a bit longer then.
Believe it or not, only 7 unique visitors so far. (Or do you
think that's in fact a lot?) I guess we don't have that many
lurkers here, at least not ones who are willing to read under
6ABB17 spoiler space.
> > Hurray for wonderbras!!!
> >
> > Ahum, sorry, got a bit carried away.
>
> Gee. Don't ever let me see you getting carried away
> completely. That must be a really scary sight!
>
> <d+r>
Oh very funny. I've seen you get carried away, but i don't make
rude remarks about it being a scary sight now do I? ;-P
>> >> > I know. I was trying to regain some positivity ;)
>> >>
>> >> Oh, right, that's cool, I'm all for that :)
>> >
>> > It's The Positivity Club!
>>
>> alt.buffy.europe.blind-to-the-flaws-of-the-show, har har
>> har...
>>
>> ;-P
>
> Um, yay?
(Okay this is where I reach for the handbook again. Hang on.)
Yup ;-)
>> Ah well, I'm sure it'll be worth the wait. Five eps in a
>> row then, hopefully a kick-ass finale, and then it's time
>> for the summer break again, possibly for the last time for
>> this particular show...
>
> Awwwww don't say that! It breaks my heart :'-((
I know, it is quite a sad thought. Oh well, maybe there will be
season 8 and 9 after all, and the show will go out with a
pathetic whimper rather than a bang. Some would no doubt say it
is already too late for a bang.
>> > So go on, do some more speculating! You're good at it :)
>>
>> Well, okay, if you really want to know, I think by this
>> time next year, Xander may well be married, but not to
>> Anya. No, to... wait for it... Dawn!
>
> <faints>
>
> Aaaaarrrgghh!!
Tssssss. What is your problem with Xander marrying Dawn? It's
perfectly plausible. It was foreshadowed as way back as Real Me,
she had a crush on him. So there.
> > Dun dun duuuuuuuuuuuun!
>
> Pffffffft.
Hrmpfff.
;-P
--
jonathaN
Mattia Valente
:-p
I'd had the thing for a few hours by the time you posted this. However,
only watched it now, on my fecking computer screen, because my CDRW is
dead, dead, dead. Deader than the dead of deadonia. Completely FUBAR.
It's getting shipped off to the place I bought it tomorrow, though.
Still under guarantee. At least it's rerun hell, eh?
Mattia
--
"My beagle went swimming today and now he's typing on my keyboard with
his ample nose. Oh, and he's the bestest handsomeest beagle EVER."
--Tim Minear, Salon.com, May 2001
Saskia
> only watched it now, on my fecking computer screen, because my CDRW is
> dead, dead, dead. Deader than the dead of deadonia. Completely FUBAR.
> It's getting shipped off to the place I bought it tomorrow, though.
> Still under guarantee. At least it's rerun hell, eh?
/me huggles Mattia.
There there...
Boy, it's sadness all around today. Everyone's depressing me... Now *I* feel
like crying too :(
--
Saskia
I'm nothing if not redundant! I also repeat myself. Fishism.
Saskia
just like that, now can I? Of course as I say this I realize that this is
how LRT's get started... so you can let it die after me. It'll die happy :)
Jonathan Black said:
> Saskia wrote:
> > Jonathan Black said:
> >> Saskia wrote:
> >> > Jonathan Black said:
> >> >> Saskia wrote:
> >> >> > Jonathan Black said:
> >> >> >> Saskia wrote:
> >> >> >> > Jonathan Black said:
> >> >> >> >> Saskia wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hey look, our own little thread! Isn't that nice?
> >> >>
> >> >> 'Torentje!', even.
> >> >
> >> > Yay!!
> >>
> >> <looks up the correct response in 'LRTs[tm] for Dummies'>
> >>
> >> Woo!
> >
> > Oh no no no no no this is *not* an LRT. This is just a
> > Torentje. Nothing more, nothing less. One: haven't seen any
> > fish flying around yet and Two: we are having a *normal*
> > discussion. A civil one. Without any fish whatsoever.
>
> Perhaps, but for me, this is pretty heavy stuff. You know,
> having to come up with a response to 'Yay!', rather than just
> snipping that part of the thread because it has run its course.
Oh dear. Such pressure! I hadn't realized...
> Thanks for responding with this little paragraph about it *not*
> being an LRT[tm], now I can suffice with this one about it being
> pretty LRT[tm]-ish *for me*, rather than having to come up with
> another pointless response.
np :)
> Or did you actually just do this to
> hide the fact that you could think of no response to my 'Woo!'
> yourself?
Never!
> >> Ah yeah, 'Frame of Mind'? S6? This was one of the first
> >> TNG eps I saw, I remember liking it a lot.
> >
> > Yes, that's the one. Cool. Must rewatch it some time.
> > Perhaps the BBC will get around to it.
>
> Eventually they will, I guess. They are running through the 7-
> season series for the third time now I think. I first saw this
> episode when they were still on their first run.
There is no end to the STTNG reruns...
> >> They didn't do that on the DS9 ep though, IIRC, it ended
> >> back in the normal DS9 world.
> >
> > Well yeah, but still, made you wonder. And especially
> > later, when the alternate Sisko came back in some later
> > episode.
>
> Oh right, I still have to see Season 7 some time. It got lost in
> the switchover from taping onto VHS to downloading VCDs.
Oh! That's right, I forgot you never saw S7. Real shame that because it
*rocks*! Really. You should try it...
> > Other possibility: if the Buffyverse is the truth and the
> > institution was indeed only in Buffy's mind, then that last
> > scene was just a final goodbye in Buffy's mind. Closing the
> > door to her state of mind of the past months and closing
> > the door to her mum and dad.
> >
> > The latter sounds the most plausible I think (as opposed to
> > the tree stooges being behind it all) and if it is, it's a
> > pretty cool metaphore.
>
> Yes, that works. This is pretty much how I am taking it too I
> guess. I mean we know the Nerds summoned the demon, and that it
> was the demon that was causing Buffy's hallucinations, right? It
Check.
> just ins't exactly clear who 'wrote' the hallucinations. The
> Nerds may have done so to a degree, but not down to the last
> detail. I guess Buffy just subconsciously filled in the blanks
> herself or something.
Okay, that's a real possibility... interesting.
> [http://deadlock.et.tudelft.nl/~jonathan/6ABB17-willow.jpg]
> >> >> Yeah she does look nice. And not sure how she's doing
> >> >> it, but she often seems to have actual breasts now too.
> >> >> This shot is a great example of that.
> >> >
> >> > Can't say I was paying attention to that
> >>
> >> Really? Why not?
> >
> > Well, because I usually don't... it's not a particular area
> > of interest to me ;-)
>
> Ah. Okay, fair enough I guess. You should try it sometime
> though. Boobs rock ass.
Perhaps. I'll have a go next time.
> >> > and I still don't really see it,
> >>
> >> Yeah, you can't really see it from that still shot, but if
> >> you look at the scene I remember thinking the outfit she
> >> is wearing there was bringing out her boobs quite nicely
> >> :)
> >
> > <rolls eyes>
>
> What?!
erm, nothing...
Truly.
> >> But really I'm just trying to see how many hits I can get on
> >> the above URL, ;-)
> >
> > So we'll leave it in a bit longer then.
>
> Believe it or not, only 7 unique visitors so far. (Or do you
> think that's in fact a lot?) I guess we don't have that many
> lurkers here, at least not ones who are willing to read under
> 6ABB17 spoiler space.
You'd think there would be lots of spoiler slutty lurkers here... We aren't
*that* boring, are we?
> > > Hurray for wonderbras!!!
> > >
> > > Ahum, sorry, got a bit carried away.
> >
> > Gee. Don't ever let me see you getting carried away
> > completely. That must be a really scary sight!
> >
> > <d+r>
>
> Oh very funny. I've seen you get carried away, but i don't make
> rude remarks about it being a scary sight now do I? ;-P
No, because me getting carried away is actually a pretty pretty sight ;-P
> >> alt.buffy.europe.blind-to-the-flaws-of-the-show, har har
> >> har...
> >>
> >> ;-P
> >
> > Um, yay?
>
> (Okay this is where I reach for the handbook again. Hang on.)
>
> Yup ;-)
Woohoo!!!
> I know, it is quite a sad thought. Oh well, maybe there will be
> season 8 and 9 after all, and the show will go out with a
> pathetic whimper rather than a bang. Some would no doubt say it
> is already too late for a bang.
Oh no, I think there is still room for a bang. But yes, tbh they should do
it after next season and not add any more.
> >> > So go on, do some more speculating! You're good at it :)
> >>
> >> Well, okay, if you really want to know, I think by this
> >> time next year, Xander may well be married, but not to
> >> Anya. No, to... wait for it... Dawn!
> >
> > <faints>
> >
> > Aaaaarrrgghh!!
>
> Tssssss. What is your problem with Xander marrying Dawn? It's
> perfectly plausible. It was foreshadowed as way back as Real Me,
> she had a crush on him. So there.
Xander would never cradle-snatch like that!
> > > Dun dun duuuuuuuuuuuun!
> >
> > Pffffffft.
>
> Hrmpfff.
Tsk. George-wannabee! :-P
Ninia
> > *without* assuming that Buffy has been making up the Buffyverse
> > all along. Still don't quite see how that last scene can exist.
> > Is it cause Buffy hasn't taken the antidote yet? Are we to
> > assume that she is seeing this scene in her mind? Cause if she
> > isn't, who is?
>
> Well, as I said in my reply to Stephen, I don't think Buffy made that
> institution stuff up. And I don't think the institution-Buffy made the
> Buffyverse (as we know it) up. I think it was all a big scheme...
She told Willow that she actually *was* in an institution for some weeks.
So her mind could have taken that memory and use it in her
hallucinations.
>
> Other possibility: if the Buffyverse is the truth and the institution was
> indeed only in Buffy's mind, then that last scene was just a final goodbye
> in Buffy's mind. Closing the door to her state of mind of the past months
> and closing the door to her mum and dad.
That would be the most satisfactory solution. Otherwise the rest of the
show can be cancelled, or they let us watch a very dull real life series.
--
Ninia
Ninia
Or to the viewers! They all made us believe in this whole world and then
after six years they come with the message: how can you believe in this.
Of course it is not true, vampires and super powers don't exist a.s.o.
I really felt a bit betrayed for some time during watching.
It also makes you very scary. You are going crazy together with Buffy.
What to believe, what not to believe.
I think the writers are playing with us in not such a nice way. It is far
worse than Riker in his two realities. The ST-world is kept intact. But
here you are being laughed at. You watched all those years and of course
it cannot be true.
This season is going very rough with our feelings. There are no nice and
big feelings, like in s.2 of s.3. No big love, no sacrifices, no
beautiful flash backs from other centuries.
But Buffy going with her lust, using Spike which is killing her.
Buffy working in that Double Meat Palace and life is bad and cheap and
trivial.
A marriage is cancelled.
And now this. Buffy in a mental institution, being very very scared and
confused.
Maybe we should conclude that the whole series had changed a lot.
It is all a bit depressing if you look at the season as a whole.
(snip)
> Yes, but on the other had I feel like we've been saying things
> like that for a couple of episodes now, 'hopefully this is over
> now, hopefully she means it this time, hopefully we can get back
> to normal again now'...
Well, this 'normal again' turned out to be quite different than you meant
it. When I saw the title, I had a lot of fantasies of what it would be
about. Spike normal again? without chip? Buffy normal again, like you
meant it above. I never would have thought 'normal again' would mean the
normal world as we know it, without vampires, demons, super powers.
--
Ninia
Jordy
Yeah but that's a bad example. There are also examples where a
revelation like that really worked... (Jacob's Ladder, The ending of
the game Monkey Island 2 come to mind). If you watch/play them for the
second time, you see everything in a different perspective, which
really adds to the quality of the story.
When you are watching old episodes you can think "oooh crazy Buffy is
killing Ms. Calendar because she is afraid imagenary Giles won't have
enough time for her anymore" or something...
I really hope they'll continue this idea in the rest of the Buffy
seasons...
Jordy
(gowing back to lurking now)
Jordy
<mail**nospam**@jordydejong.com> wrote:
>(gowing back to lurking now)
eeehm "going" I mean :)
Miriam Rocke
Whee, I actually /saw/ the episode. Before the weekend. Bwhahahaha.
Or something like that.
> Seeing Joyce was a big surprise (I wasn't paying attention to
> the guest star names)
I was; but then again, I already knew she was in it. (The promo from
last week, had a quick shot of one of the scenes where the doctor's
explaining stuff to Joyce; I didn't notice that the other person was
Hank, but I sure as heck noticed Joyce.
It's kind of interesting that they /didn't/ take the route of Buffy
incorporating existing people into her fantasy world. I mean, yes,
there's Joyce, and the geek trio (whatever that line was about the
current villains being kids she knew from HS); but there was, as far
as we saw, no "real" counterpart to even the "main cast" of Giles,
Willow, Xander, Anya, Spike, Angel, whoever.
This was actually a decently entertaining episode; not The Best Buffy
Episode Ever [tm], but given that I've been kind of blah about the
current season as a whole [with exceptions for episodes like OMWF and
TR], that makes this one of the better eps of the season. Not
original, as other people have said, but still fun.
From a ficcer perspective, it opens up a new universe to play in /
consider. Not nearly as entertaining as the Wishverse, mind you, but
still, it acts more like an alternate reality than a simple
hallucination.
Of course, one wonders whether vampires are /real/ in the "normal"
universe; if one assumes that the current institutionalization was
either a continuation of the original ("after I saw my first vampire")
one or after that, it's unclear even in the logic of the universe
whether or not vampires are real.
And as I am supposed to be working right now and not browsing usenet,
I should probably shut up and send this... *g*
Mir
--
Miriam Rocke "Just so we're clear, you guys
mrr...@ucdavis.edu know you're nuts, right?"
http://handel.cipic.ucdavis.edu/~mrrocke/ --BtVS, "Gingerbread"
busybee
"Ninia" <Ar...@Evenstar.com> a écrit dans le message news:
MPG.16f9eed17...@textnews.casema.net...
> Well, this 'normal again' turned out to be quite different than you meant
> it. When I saw the title, I had a lot of fantasies of what it would be
> about. Spike normal again? without chip? Buffy normal again, like you
> meant it above. I never would have thought 'normal again' would mean the
> normal world as we know it, without vampires, demons, super powers.
>
personally i was totally wrong: i thought normal again would mean that anya
accepted d'hoffryn's suggestion to join him in the demonic world again.
which does not mean it won't happen , of course.
might also have been about willow, saying she's totally cured....
cya
busybee
Mattia Valente
> might also have been about willow, saying she's totally cured....
Gah!
This sends shivers down my spine. 'Cured' my ass. There's nothing to be
cured from.
Saskia
Says you... I don't see why magick could not be something you can get
addicted to. And addiction is considered to be a sickness. I consider
myself cured from smoking to which I was addicted. So we may not like it,
but this is what has been shoved down our throats. Willow was addicted to
Magick, went cold turkey and may or may not be cured. I wouldn't dare to
hesitate a guess on that, don't think these things go that fast.
--
Saskia
Mattia Valente
Okay, but to be 'cured' completely would mean Willow facing up to her
power/responsibility issues directly. Swearing off magic altogether is
the wimp's way out in this case. Magic <> tobacco. I know that's how
they're portraying it, I'm trying to let it go, but I cannot and will
not fully accept "she's clean now, and cured of her nasty magic habit
and all that stuff it made her do (note the negation of personal
responsibility)". No matter how much they want us to go there.
Miriam Rocke
> On Mon, 18 Mar 2002, Mattia Valente wrote:
>> busybee wrote:
>> > "Ninia" <Ar...@Evenstar.com> a ecrit dans le message news:
*twitch*
First of all: Despite the current thread with Willow, I do /not/ /buy/
that magic in the Jossverse is addictive. It's never been set up that
way. And yes, I am aware that the current thread is about dark
magic, not all magic, but we've seen people (Giles and Ethan) do dark
magicks and /not/ get addicted.
I can, however, interpret it as Willow getting addicted not to the
magic itself, but to the power, to the control. To the ability to get
people to do/think exactly what she wants them to. How much easier,
for instance, would it have been, after the Fluke back in S3, if she
could have just pulled that forget spell on Oz?
But in some sense, Willow claiming this as a material addiction is a
copout. It's a way of denying responsibility. It's not a choice on
her part, see; she's not an instigator, she's just a victim. Except
that it /did/ come from choices on her part. Tabula Rasa wasn't her
being addicted to magic, it was her needing the /control/, wanting to
set everything back to 'normal'.
She was playing in stuff over her head -- she has been, ever since
Becoming. And she never had a teacher, really, never anyone to train
her how to do what she wants to do, and so she never learned control.
There was only Giles, except that Giles was always telling her "no",
and so she stopped listening, even though he was the one who knew most
what she was going through, because he'd already been in it. But she
didn't listen, and she couldn't see how deep she was getting, couldn't
see how far off the road she was wandering, until one day she looked
up and saw the Big Bad Wolf, and looked down at the flowers in her
hand and said "It's the fault of the flowers," when it was her /own/
fault for not paying attention, for not being aware of where she was.
Okay, I'm stopping with the Little Red Riding Hood metaphor. *g* But
the point is, this whole thing is a copout, both for Willow /and/ for
the writers. And I don't think she really is going to ever get better
until she acknowledges some responsibility for what happened.
Mind you, I am /well/ aware that there are truly medical conditions
that can't be snapped out of. That alcoholism, for example, isn't as
much about having one drink too many as having a brain wired 'wrong',
so that /any/ drink is one too many; and this is, I think, the effect
the writers are going for.
But I still don't buy it. Magic has /never/ been something to get
addicted to, in the Jossverse. I mean, yes, it's been parallelled to
drugs, even back with the Eyghon thing -- they were getting high on
the power, on the effect, only I don't think it was just the magic
that was doing that; I think it was the possession. Even so, though,
there's never been any indication that this can happen.
Of course, this is just Joss inventing stuff on the fly. Again. *g*
[Like Giles' line, back in The Witch, about this being his first
spell; and I can't even completely see that as a "Mustn't tell them
about my history, so I'll pretend this is the first time I've done
something" line, because he was truly uncertain about the outcome.
And like Jenny being a Gypsy instead of a technopagan, which is
something I /still/ have issues with.]
And no, this isn't a hot subject for me, not at all...
Saskia
> > Says you... I don't see why magick could not be something you can get
> > addicted to. And addiction is considered to be a sickness. I consider
> > myself cured from smoking to which I was addicted. So we may not like it,
> > but this is what has been shoved down our throats. Willow was addicted to
> > Magick, went cold turkey and may or may not be cured. I wouldn't dare to
> > hesitate a guess on that, don't think these things go that fast.
>
> *twitch*
>
> First of all: Despite the current thread with Willow, I do /not/ /buy/
> that magic in the Jossverse is addictive. It's never been set up that
> way. And yes, I am aware that the current thread is about dark
> magic, not all magic, but we've seen people (Giles and Ethan) do dark
> magicks and /not/ get addicted.
>
> I can, however, interpret it as Willow getting addicted not to the
> magic itself, but to the power, to the control. To the ability to get
> people to do/think exactly what she wants them to. How much easier,
> for instance, would it have been, after the Fluke back in S3, if she
> could have just pulled that forget spell on Oz?
Well yes, of course. but I really don't see the problem. I can believe
that any addiction becomes physical at some point, even addiction to
Magick. Using a spell makes you feel good because you can make problems
disappear in a flash and immediately leads to physical comfort,
making you feel calm. Just like cigarettes do, and alcohol.
> Okay, I'm stopping with the Little Red Riding Hood metaphor. *g*
It was cute though.
> the point is, this whole thing is a copout, both for Willow /and/ for
> the writers. And I don't think she really is going to ever get better
> until she acknowledges some responsibility for what happened.
This I agree with. I can accept it because, if I want to keep enjoying
watching the show I'm gonna have to because this is what the writers give
us. But I'm not liking it. It's too easy, too cheap "I was sick, I wasn't
responsible, feel sorry for me, now I'm better". Also, I liked Willow's
witchness and what it was doing for her. Finally she was becoming
stronger, self confident, getting rid of that rather annoying
goofy cuteness. But they had to turn it into this, take everything away
from her and I do not like it. And she has become yet another background
scooby with nothing interesting to do or say but flicker her eyelashes at
Tara.
> But I still don't buy it. Magic has /never/ been something to get
> addicted to, in the Jossverse. I mean, yes, it's been parallelled to
> drugs, even back with the Eyghon thing -- they were getting high on
> the power, on the effect, only I don't think it was just the magic
> that was doing that; I think it was the possession. Even so, though,
> there's never been any indication that this can happen.
But does there have to be? No I can't say this is a problem to me.
Anything that gives you power *can* become addictive <points at
dictators>. It's something that, once you have it, is extremely difficult
to give up and you're willing to sacrifice anything, including your soul,
to keep it. I imagine. Can't really say for sure, not having had any kind
of power whatsoever, but it seems plausible.
> Of course, this is just Joss inventing stuff on the fly. Again. *g*
I'm okay with that.
> And no, this isn't a hot subject for me, not at all...
Riiiiiiight <bg>
--
Saskia