Angel 5x07 Lineage
Jonathan Dupont
here, so y'know, thought I might as well try it.
First
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So, I've been totally going a phase of doubt with Drew Goddard. On the
one hand, Selfless & CWDP rocks and NLM, LMPTM & DG are all solid, but
on the other he was given pretty much amazing plot potential to play
with in Selfless and he only wrote the most boring bit of CWDP. He's
obviously a good writer, but I'm not sure he deserves quite the hype
he's been getting.
Then again, everyone else on the Internet seemed to absolutely love
this. Mostly I agree in that it was very, very good, but not say in a
different league from Hellbound. Still, I think it firmly establishes
Drew as being a name to look out for - he achieved something that nobody
else has quite managed for me in being absolutely comfortable with W&H,
although I'm already bored with the amount of bottle shows they're
doing. The plot was good and well structured, the characterisation of
Wes and co was perfect, and there was some great lines scattered
throughout. He continued his tradition of being obesessed with
continuity, mostly subtly handled, although it was noticable to me that
he personally wrote at least two of the Buffy eps referenced. :)
Wes shooting his father was of the good, it turning out to be a robot
netural, and the use of robots in the first place slightly aggravating,
although at least there was a confirmed mystical dimension this time.
ME seem to be doing a fairly good job of handling the characters fairly
this year. Only Gunn is missing out on a spotlight show (well, and Fred,
but she's been in the whole of it a lot anyway), and even he's got an
interesting plot thread going. They're still not handling the ensemble
perfectly IMHO, and people do tend to often disappear into the
background, but they're definitely improving. Also, with the repeated
mentions of (a) the Connor situation (b) Shansu and (c) the whole amulet
deal I'm beginng to hope that uncharacteristically we might actually get
some answers on Angel. :) For the first time I actually feel like we're
going somewhere.
Also, trailer for next week looks good - this season seems to be finally
hitting its stride, and hopefully that's not just Sweeps talking.
Jon
Iain Clark
Okay, but to me Selfless is all about the execution, not the bare
bones of the story. The boy done good.
> and he only wrote the most boring bit of CWDP.
But you can see the verve of his dialogue and the strength of his
characterisation in the other things he's written.
> He's
>obviously a good writer, but I'm not sure he deserves quite the hype
>he's been getting.
>
Probably not, but so many Buffy and Angel writers can take an outline
from a story break session and knock out a workmanlike script. Drew
consistently brings more inspiration to the final product than a lot
of his colleagues. IMO.
>Then again, everyone else on the Internet seemed to absolutely love
>this. Mostly I agree in that it was very, very good, but not say in a
>different league from Hellbound.
I haven't seen any other reviews, but I thought it was great. The
characterisation of Wes was spot on, and the tone was relentlessly
dark whilst at the same time having a number of hilarious moments. It
also manages to integrate a nice character study with the kind of
"high concept" central story idea which seems to be a hallmark of the
current season.
It wasn't an all time "best ever" kind of episode, but it was as good
as last week's, which I rated pretty highly.
Good performance from Roy Dotrice too.
> Still, I think it firmly establishes
>Drew as being a name to look out for - he achieved something that nobody
>else has quite managed for me in being absolutely comfortable with W&H,
>although I'm already bored with the amount of bottle shows they're
>doing.
I know what you mean, and the neat resolution (at least in story
terms) was a slight disappointment. But balancing that is the fact
that the resolution is anything *but* pat for poor Wes.
I'm just hoping his Dad was really behind the whole thing after all...
:-)
>He continued his tradition of being obesessed with
>continuity, mostly subtly handled, although it was noticable to me that
>he personally wrote at least two of the Buffy eps referenced. :)
>
Definitely.
>Wes shooting his father was of the good, it turning out to be a robot
>netural, and the use of robots in the first place slightly aggravating,
>although at least there was a confirmed mystical dimension this time.
>
I have mixed feelings about him turning out to be a cyborg. What I
*did* like was that it wasn't a complete cop-out. Wes didn't know,
and didn't even suspect, and has effectively found himself capable of
murdering his own father.
What I loved about this episode is the juxtaposition of the beginning
and the end. We start out with cool, capable, big with the John Woo
moves Wes. He gets a roasting from Angel who alone remembers his
betrayal over Connor, and doesn't trust Wes' ability to betray loved
ones for the greater good.
By the end Angel has overcome his doubts, and he can accept that Wes
takes the tough decisions, the morally grey decisions, for the greater
good. But Wes's self-image has been through the ringer, and just when
he was asserting himself again he's seen the genuine darkness that
goes along with it, the ability to kill his own father when
circumstances dictate.
>ME seem to be doing a fairly good job of handling the characters fairly
>this year. Only Gunn is missing out on a spotlight show (well, and Fred,
>but she's been in the whole of it a lot anyway), and even he's got an
>interesting plot thread going.
Yep. For example, I was afraid Spike would be relegated to one-liner
guy again this week (though his report on the "Head Boy" was great)
but then we get the little scene in the lift that was immensely
intriguing.
That's the approach they seem to be taking this year - keep the
ensemble simmering in the background, and bring them to the fore in
short scenes, or spotlight episodes.
> They're still not handling the ensemble
>perfectly IMHO, and people do tend to often disappear into the
>background, but they're definitely improving.
I agree they could integrate them as a group more effectively.
>Also, with the repeated
>mentions of (a) the Connor situation (b) Shansu and (c) the whole amulet
>deal I'm beginng to hope that uncharacteristically we might actually get
>some answers on Angel. :) For the first time I actually feel like we're
>going somewhere.
>
I don't know about 'uncharacteristically', but they've certainly
strung out mysteries for a good long while in the past. Here we have
an indication that there's a definite explanation lurking around the
corner.
Iain
--
"Fell over on the couch again
But you know, not all sleep is wasted."
Jonathan Dupont
news:3bmarvsoqgac2rp04...@4ax.com:
I know. In particular, the Buffy/Xander argument sparkles and that was
all on his own. It's just... he had Joss writing songs for him. He
finally got to write in detail about Anya. You couldn't ask for a much
better starter episode than that.
>> and he only wrote the most boring bit of CWDP.
>
> But you can see the verve of his dialogue and the strength of his
> characterisation in the other things he's written.
I totally agree.
>> He's
>>obviously a good writer, but I'm not sure he deserves quite the hype
>>he's been getting.
>>
>
> Probably not, but so many Buffy and Angel writers can take an outline
> from a story break session and knock out a workmanlike script. Drew
> consistently brings more inspiration to the final product than a lot
> of his colleagues. IMO.
Well, yeah. It's just that a lot of people have been making him out as
the second coming of Joss or something :), when really he's just very
good. I still think Marti Noxon, Jane Espenson and so on have in the
past written as least as good episodes.
>>Then again, everyone else on the Internet seemed to absolutely love
>>this. Mostly I agree in that it was very, very good, but not say in a
>>different league from Hellbound.
>
> I haven't seen any other reviews, but I thought it was great. The
> characterisation of Wes was spot on, and the tone was relentlessly
> dark whilst at the same time having a number of hilarious moments. It
> also manages to integrate a nice character study with the kind of
> "high concept" central story idea which seems to be a hallmark of the
> current season.
It does seem to be mostly going that way, doesn't it?
> It wasn't an all time "best ever" kind of episode, but it was as good
> as last week's, which I rated pretty highly.
I think last week's had more style, but not quite the substance. Put the
two together and you could have something pretty special.
> Good performance from Roy Dotrice too.
Again, agreed.
>> Still, I think it firmly establishes
>>Drew as being a name to look out for - he achieved something that
nobody
>>else has quite managed for me in being absolutely comfortable with
W&H,
>>although I'm already bored with the amount of bottle shows they're
>>doing.
>
> I know what you mean, and the neat resolution (at least in story
> terms) was a slight disappointment. But balancing that is the fact
> that the resolution is anything *but* pat for poor Wes.
True. I'm not sure if we'll ever get any resolution on it though, or
it'll continue to be just a background thing. They never actually *need*
to come back to this topic.
> I'm just hoping his Dad was really behind the whole thing after all...
>:-)
I think it's enough that Wes had no problem believing that he could be.
>
>>Wes shooting his father was of the good, it turning out to be a robot
>>netural, and the use of robots in the first place slightly
aggravating,
>>although at least there was a confirmed mystical dimension this time.
>>
>
> I have mixed feelings about him turning out to be a cyborg. What I
> *did* like was that it wasn't a complete cop-out. Wes didn't know,
> and didn't even suspect, and has effectively found himself capable of
> murdering his own father.
Exactly. And he emptied rather a lot of bullets before he stopped
firing...
> What I loved about this episode is the juxtaposition of the beginning
> and the end. We start out with cool, capable, big with the John Woo
> moves Wes. He gets a roasting from Angel who alone remembers his
> betrayal over Connor, and doesn't trust Wes' ability to betray loved
> ones for the greater good.
Good point.
Y'know, one of my biggest problems with Angel is that ME seems to have
taken it for granted that we accept that what Wesley in S3 was wrong,
whereas I'm nowhere near as sure. The way it came off to me at the time
was that he did what he had to, and it was Angel who was (although
understandably) the illogical one.
> By the end Angel has overcome his doubts, and he can accept that Wes
> takes the tough decisions, the morally grey decisions, for the greater
> good. But Wes's self-image has been through the ringer, and just when
> he was asserting himself again he's seen the genuine darkness that
> goes along with it, the ability to kill his own father when
> circumstances dictate.
Where they go from here is the interesting part. And I don't mean the
Fred/Knox love triangle...
>> They're still not handling the ensemble
>>perfectly IMHO, and people do tend to often disappear into the
>>background, but they're definitely improving.
>
> I agree they could integrate them as a group more effectively.
I guess they're never going to be able to do it as West Wing, by virtue
of the different setting and style, but they could at least try for
Firefly standards, which I always felt kept a fair enough balance.
>>Also, with the repeated
>>mentions of (a) the Connor situation (b) Shansu and (c) the whole
amulet
>>deal I'm beginng to hope that uncharacteristically we might actually
get
>>some answers on Angel. :) For the first time I actually feel like
we're
>>going somewhere.
>>
>
> I don't know about 'uncharacteristically', but they've certainly
> strung out mysteries for a good long while in the past. Here we have
> an indication that there's a definite explanation lurking around the
> corner.
>
> Iain
I just really, really don't want Spike's resurrection to turn into
another Connor's birth...
Jon
Dave Emberton
news:Xns943487612C0Fjo...@140.99.99.130...
> > as last week's, which I rated pretty highly.
Really? Oh okay.
> > I'm just hoping his Dad was really behind the whole thing after all...
> >:-)
What it does confirm is that a) Wesley's father was a watcher, and b) he's
not dead. So the watchers council aren't truly destroyed, and the story of
them starting anew is plausible enough to mean it could really happen. And
the issue of how the robot makers had got so much information on Wes and his
Father was kind of glossed over. WC records? So is that confirmation that
the bots were sent by the reamins of the WC?
> >>Wes shooting his father was of the good, it turning out to be a robot
> >>netural, and the use of robots in the first place slightly
> aggravating,
> >>although at least there was a confirmed mystical dimension this time.
> >>
> >
> > I have mixed feelings about him turning out to be a cyborg. What I
> > *did* like was that it wasn't a complete cop-out. Wes didn't know,
> > and didn't even suspect, and has effectively found himself capable of
> > murdering his own father.
>
> Exactly. And he emptied rather a lot of bullets before he stopped
> firing...
Yep. I liked that, and was genuinely suprised about the robot. It was rather
obvious though. Big long stand off but the instant the woman he loves is
threatened he fires first and asks questions later. Although maybe only the
first shot was to save Fred, and the rest were his bitterness and resentment
boiling over.
Doesn't make sense that RoboDad would have hesitated about shooting Wes
though.
> Y'know, one of my biggest problems with Angel is that ME seems to have
> taken it for granted that we accept that what Wesley in S3 was wrong,
> whereas I'm nowhere near as sure. The way it came off to me at the time
> was that he did what he had to, and it was Angel who was (although
> understandably) the illogical one.
No I don't think his motivations were wrong at all, even though the end
result perhaps was.
What I don't like (and continue to not like), is the annoying Wes/Fred/Knox
story. Didn't we have this love triangle for the last two years (except
interchanging Knox with Gunn)? Come up with something new please.
And then there's Spike. He seems to have become another Joxer the Mighty,
only not as useful and not as funny as Joxer. They seem to be making him the
comic relief, and it just aint working.
Dave
Iain Clark
Ouch. ;-) I really did enjoy last week's episode - I thought it was a
lovely blend of smart themes with off-beat humour.
It wasn't perfect, but it was very good.
This week's wasn't perfect either. Too much sarcastic Spike, a
little bit too kitsch with the cyborgs, and that scene where Fred
calls Wes childish seemed very out of character and solely to set up
his Dad's entrance.
>> > I'm just hoping his Dad was really behind the whole thing after all...
>> >:-)
>
>What it does confirm is that a) Wesley's father was a watcher, and b) he's
>not dead. So the watchers council aren't truly destroyed, and the story of
>them starting anew is plausible enough to mean it could really happen. And
>the issue of how the robot makers had got so much information on Wes and his
>Father was kind of glossed over. WC records? So is that confirmation that
>the bots were sent by the reamins of the WC?
>
Or someone who gained access to their psychological evaluation records
- not sure about the chronology of that though. Who could have got
the records out in time? Or were there other records elsewhere?
Again, I think it would be a great opportunity to bring Wes' dad back
if the Watcher's Council did, in fact, have some involvement.
>> Exactly. And he emptied rather a lot of bullets before he stopped
>> firing...
>
>Yep. I liked that, and was genuinely suprised about the robot. It was rather
>obvious though. Big long stand off but the instant the woman he loves is
>threatened he fires first and asks questions later. Although maybe only the
>first shot was to save Fred, and the rest were his bitterness and resentment
>boiling over.
>
Definitely. Very cathartic for Wes, I think. Which is why he feels
so guilty.
>Doesn't make sense that RoboDad would have hesitated about shooting Wes
>though.
>
Well, if they were on the side of good they wouldn't just want to
start killing people like Wes, even if their goals were temporarily at
odds.
>> Y'know, one of my biggest problems with Angel is that ME seems to have
>> taken it for granted that we accept that what Wesley in S3 was wrong,
>> whereas I'm nowhere near as sure. The way it came off to me at the time
>> was that he did what he had to, and it was Angel who was (although
>> understandably) the illogical one.
>
Actually, if anything, this episode showed Angel acknowledging that
Wes was *not* wrong to act the way he did in Season 3.
Or at least, Angel sees that it was not an easy thing, and not without
cost to Wes, and that it's important to have someone who can make the
hard decisions.
>No I don't think his motivations were wrong at all, even though the end
>result perhaps was.
>
It was more that he didn't consult, but took everything on himself. A
little more trust and communication, sharing the burden, could have
led to a very different outcome.
Overall I'd say he was right to act as he did under the circumstances,
but he shares some of the blame.
>What I don't like (and continue to not like), is the annoying Wes/Fred/Knox
>story. Didn't we have this love triangle for the last two years (except
>interchanging Knox with Gunn)? Come up with something new please.
>
It's okay. Solid. Nothing special. I hope it doesn't become too
major a plotline.
>And then there's Spike. He seems to have become another Joxer the Mighty,
>only not as useful and not as funny as Joxer. They seem to be making him the
>comic relief, and it just aint working.
>
He's at his worst when he's just comic relief. As a kind of Lorne Mk
2, popping up to make some sardonic quip, he just doesn't interest me
(though like Lorne he's sometimes very funny.) There was too much of
Spike just snarking on the sidelines this week, and it becomes
intrusive after a while.
Luckily every episode so far has had at least one quieter, more
reflective Spike scene to balance out the annoying parts. In this
case it was his conversation in the lift with Eve.
Iain
--
"And every time she sneezes I believe it's love"
Dave Emberton
news:o86crvsarlcj68fn8...@4ax.com...
Doh! Just realised I was getting my episodes confused. I was thinking of the
mediocre evil-Lorne episode, but last week was the wrestling brothers, which
I did enjoy especially towards the end.
> >What it does confirm is that a) Wesley's father was a watcher, and b)
he's
> >not dead. So the watchers council aren't truly destroyed, and the story
of
> >them starting anew is plausible enough to mean it could really happen.
And
> >the issue of how the robot makers had got so much information on Wes and
his
> >Father was kind of glossed over. WC records? So is that confirmation that
> >the bots were sent by the reamins of the WC?
> >
>
> Or someone who gained access to their psychological evaluation records
> - not sure about the chronology of that though. Who could have got
> the records out in time? Or were there other records elsewhere?
Given the arrogance of the council, you'd think they'd store all their
records in their building and just think they were invulnerable. And Giles
also mentioned that all the records had been destroyed apart from the ones
he'd "borrowed". So this must have been put in motion before the WC was
destroyed.
> Luckily every episode so far has had at least one quieter, more
> reflective Spike scene to balance out the annoying parts. In this
> case it was his conversation in the lift with Eve.
Glad you mentioned her. What's the point of Eve? She just shows up, looks
sexy, and Angel and the gang just seem to accept her as one of their own. If
anything, you'd think they'd be deeply distrustful of her and try to keep
things from her.
Dave
Iain Clark
<notint...@notinterested.in.your.spam.com> wrote:
>Glad you mentioned her. What's the point of Eve? She just shows up, looks
>sexy, and Angel and the gang just seem to accept her as one of their own. If
>anything, you'd think they'd be deeply distrustful of her and try to keep
>things from her.
>
I thought that was what they *were* dong to be honest. They don't
trust her, don't look p[leased when she shows up, and only speak to
her when she already knows what's going on. On the other hand she's
the liaison with W&H so they can't just chuck her out.
Iain
--
"What'll I tell him
When he comes to me for absolution?"
Dave Emberton
She's the liason with the senior partners as I understand it, but what do
they actually liaise with the senior partners about?
IIRC, Angel was chastising Wesley with Eve standing right there, which
doesn't seem very likely either.
Dave
Iain Clark
<notint...@notinterested.in.your.spam.com> wrote:
I know what you mean. He acts like she's from Human Resources :-)
Ian Shuttleworth
iain...@dragonhaven.plus.com (Iain Clark) wrote:
> What I *did* like was that it wasn't a complete cop-out. Wes didn't
> know, and didn't even suspect, and has effectively found himself capable
> of murdering his own father.
This is exactly the point I've been making about Buffy and Ted for some
time when it's argued that it was relatively late before she murdered a
human being: yes, but that was happenstance - she *believed* she'd killed
one much earlier.
Me, I'm still trying to get over the resemblance between Dotrice as
Wyndam-Price pčre and my landlord who lives upstairs... perhaps I should
take out some more insurance...
--
Ian S.
Niall Harrison
> First
> S
> O
> M
> E
> F
> O
> R
> 5
> ,
> Then again, everyone else on the Internet seemed to absolutely love
> this. Mostly I agree in that it was very, very good, but not say in a
> different league from Hellbound.
I thought it was reasonable with an exceptional fourth act. Given that I
never, ever wanted to see Wesley's father, I guess they did about as well
as I could hope.
> The plot was good and well structured,
Yes. It was obvious that English Snr was involved somehow, not at all
obvious that he was a cyborg.
> the characterisation of Wes and co was perfect,
But really very dull. There was nothing here about Wes we didn't already
know...until the fourth act. I appreciate that the payoff is there, and
excellent, but the first three acts lacked...flair.
Niall
--
But is it art?