Buffy 7x07 - So the obvious question is ...
Gunnar Harboe
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... Best 'Buffy' episode ever?
Passion, Becoming, Hush, Restless, The Body, OMWF ... I have no doubt
Conversations with Dead People will be named in the same breath as
these.
I'm not sure this is my new favourite episode, but Ultimate Drew is
definitely my new favourite writer. And he's working up a Tim
Minear-like knack for killing recurring characters, too. RIP Jonathan.
At least now that the show has gone all the way, being dead probably
*increases* your chances of appearing in future episodes.
I take it we're in sweeps?
Saskia
Gunnar Harboe sings:
It's most definitely on the shortlist!
> Passion, Becoming, Hush, Restless, The Body, OMWF ... I have no doubt
> Conversations with Dead People will be named in the same breath as
> these.
Yep. I was in complete shock after watching it yesterday.
> I'm not sure this is my new favourite episode, but Ultimate Drew is
> definitely my new favourite writer. And he's working up a Tim
> Minear-like knack for killing recurring characters, too. RIP Jonathan.
:-( And Spike! My god...
> At least now that the show has gone all the way, being dead probably
> *increases* your chances of appearing in future episodes.
Hehehe
> I take it we're in sweeps?
Looks that way.
--
Saskia
"Hello salty goodness"
Gunnar Harboe
wrote:
>Nope. Not even close.
Hmm..
It's difficult to compare it to Hush, Restless, The Body and OMWF (the
last of which I don't like, but that's another discussion).
I think it'd definitely make my top three non-gimmick-episode list,
though.
OK, so maybe it is a gimmick -- it's certainly not a standard 'Buffy' ep
-- but it's a gimmick I wouldn't mind more of. They're actually doing
scary! Tachyon-TV had it right all along!
>Best set-up ever? Quite possibly.
>
>> I'm not sure this is my new favourite episode, but Ultimate Drew is
>> definitely my new favourite writer.
>
>Apparently there was a bit of a bidding war between the _Buffy_ and
>_Angel_ staff as to who got him. I'm glad _Buffy_ did, because I think
>they needed him more.
'Spin the Bottle' is ticking in at a healthy kbps, but I must say
'Angel' has needed good writers more desperately than Buffy for the last
year. Cancel it and consolidate the talent on Buffy, I say.
You have a somewhat different perspective on it, I guess.
>I don't think this was all his - it definitely had an Espenson feel about
>it in places - but it was fine, fine work.
Apart from her writing some great silly comedy, I've never been able to
get a feel for Espenson's writing.
I don't really mind who writes it as long as it's this good.
>> I take it we're in sweeps?
>
>Uh-huh.
>
>Niall
Niall Harrison
Nope. Not even close.
Best set-up ever? Quite possibly.
> I'm not sure this is my new favourite episode, but Ultimate Drew is
> definitely my new favourite writer.
Apparently there was a bit of a bidding war between the _Buffy_ and
_Angel_ staff as to who got him. I'm glad _Buffy_ did, because I think
they needed him more.
I don't think this was all his - it definitely had an Espenson feel about
it in places - but it was fine, fine work.
> I take it we're in sweeps?
Uh-huh.
Niall
--
But is it art?
Niall Harrison
> wrote:
>>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Gunnar Harboe wrote:
>>> On 12 Nov 2002 16:23:14 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Gunnar Harboe wrote:
>>>>> SPOILERS FOR 7x07
Opinion of _Angel_ 4x06 (and, indeed, S4 to date) down the bottom. No plot
spoilers.
>>I just don't think it's got the longevity. For me, a lot of its power
>>comes from the 'whoa that's so cool!' factor. It's very, very stylish, and
>>there are a lot of great developments; but I can't help thinking that the
>>only scenes with any real weight - the only ones I think I'll get
>>something more out of when I rewatch the episode - are Buffy's.
>
> Huh. Those are the ones I wouldn't really care to watch again, except
> for the sake of analysis (sake-of-analysis, psychoanalysis, geddit?!
> Gedditt?!!).
Different people, different tastes, I guess.
(By-the-by, it's mostly in these scenes that I thought I detected the hand
of Espenson. Of course, that may just be due to the 'insane troll logic'
reference)
>>Willow's scenes didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know;
>
> True, but I thought they were well written, emotional without the worst
> Sarah McLachlan excesses.
True. And they don't hinge on the reveal at the end, either; as soon as
the episode title had flashed up I'd worked out that this was going to be
when the First Evil (assuming that's what it is) made it's reappearance.
>>and
>>Dawn's were mostly just for show.
>
> I wouldn't mind more of this kind of show. The pure kickboxing/exploding
> buildings action has always left me cold, but some horror scares would
> liven up the series no end.
I didn't find any of it scary, though. I just wanted them to cut to the
chase - the interesting thing for me is trying to work out which side
Joyce was on.
>> Andrew and Jonathan were fun, though.
>
> Yeah, even if they went a bit heavy on Jonathan's essential goodness at
> the end. Why didn't he just slip into a red jumper?
Well, I didn't see his death coming... :-(
>>(And Spike? We're all agreed that's not really what it appears to be,
>>right?)
>
> That didn't even occur to me, but now that it's been pointed out, of
> course I think you're right.
Yeah, the guy has a chip and a soul. Something is most definitely Up.
(Whilst I'm here: 'Him'. Now, the ep wasn't great (I don't like 'humour'
based on making the audience cringe), but it wasn't irredemably bad. But
what the hell was up with Dawn comparing Spike and Xander, as if attempted
rape and leaving someone at the altar were equivalent acts?)
>>> -- but it's a gimmick I wouldn't mind more of.
>>
>>I would. This was great for establishing the playing field, setting things
>>up; but now we need some actual plot.
>
> I love the hallucinatory feel. Always have.
Sure, but for 22 episodes? Might get a little samey. :-)
>>And scary? I can't say I thought it was scary. Atmospheric, yes, scary,
>>now.
>
> If dead parents turning up in your living room isn't scary, I don't know
> what is.
Given that it was played as *comforting* to Dawn to have her dead parent
turn up in her living room...
What was meant to be scary was the thing attacking Joyce. But it wasn't. I
didn't jump, it's not going to give me nightmares. The story sucked me in
and got involved, but that's not my definition of 'scary', is all.
>>> but I must say
>>> 'Angel' has needed good writers more desperately than Buffy for the last
>>> year. Cancel it and consolidate the talent on Buffy, I say.
>>>
>>> You have a somewhat different perspective on it, I guess.
>>
>>You could say that. :-p
>
> Well, I'll be watching 'Spin the Bottle' now, so maybe I'll come around.
I thought it was good, but not great (like most of the episodes this
season, to be honest. No stinkers yet, and a lot of really nice moments,
but the season hasn't *quite* clicked so far).
>>Mr Goddard is doing ep 9 though as well, I believe. Prolific so-and-so...
>
> Excellent ... eeexcellent!
And before then: David Fury. Getting to write EvilSpike (or at least
FakeEvilSpike). Should be fun.
Niall
--
When memes collide.
Tafka
12 Nov 2002 20:13:33 -0000 in alt.buffy.europe said:
>"Gunnar Harboe" <gh...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
>news:p752tusu2u7d2can6...@4ax.com...
>
>I was beginning to wonder if this newsgroup was dead ;-)
>Really?
For me, nope. But then this season of Buffy still hasn't clicked for
me at all and I need something a little more to confirm that it's
going in a good place and not going to fall a little short, a la S5/6.
It's good on first impressions and for reveals, but not so good for -
well - plot or purpose yet. I'm sure, with more episodes, it'll come
into it's own but if it goes no-where or to a bad place then it's
going to hinder my opinion of it (think Angel S3x11 - "Birthday").
>Not sure what to make of this one. It's good to see (as with last week's
>split screen stuff), they're not afraid to shake up the format a little bit,
>which is no bad thing this far into the shows life. I think the Dawn stuff
>worked well (although it was straying well into Close Encounters and/or The
>Shining territory), Buffy being psycho-analysed by a vamp was amusing at
>first, but got on my nevers after a while, but the Willow talking to
>Cassie/Tara I found a bit dull.
Dawn was, as others have said, more 'feh' than worrying - and
Glowing!Joyce? Bad things glow like that, bad things...
("Tomorrow"...). And I really didn't like last week, for what it's
worth.
>Presumably we had Azura Skye as they couldn't get Amber Benson back. Not
>necessarily a bad thing.
I'd say a much better thing. Tara would've been more emotional for
Willow and more impassioned - Cassie is a little mysterious and
strange anyway, as per her life/visionary knowledge, and it worked
better for me.
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the only other episode that actually had
>the episode title at the start was OMWF (except for the few occasions where
>they've edited together two episodes into a double episode).
AFAIK; yup.
>The nerds: quite amusing, especially Warren doing the "No, there is another"
>Star Wars thing. But what exactly was the point of Jonathan being sacrificed
>like that? If it was simply a case of the big bad thing under the school
>needing a sacrifice, then why Jonathan? Wouldn't it have been easier to find
>someone from the school? It is traditional to sacrifice virgins after all
>(which Jonathan isn't - remember the twins?).
They were going to leave him last season, weren't they? It was only
Jonathan telling Buffy about the spheres that allowed her to gain the
upper hand in her fight with Warren at the time then.
I just saw it as 1) more realistic for him to be killed by
Warren/Andrew due to not needing another person to be "kidnapped" and
brought along and 2) as above; them ridding themselves of him.
>So was it really Spike doing the vamping? Or was it the Big Bad pretending
>to be Spike?
I'd say Spike, because what need would there to be for BB to pretend
to be Spike besides Buffy getting pissed off and (finally) staking
him?
>Clearly there's some connection between why Spike got his soul
>back and the whole "it eats you, starting with the bottom" thing.
There is?
>And here's a more radical thought: did any of this really happen? Given the
>slightly unreal nature of everything, it could easily have been a collective
>dream, or an individuals dream. Xander's dream perhaps (seeing as he had no
>other connection to the episode).
If this is true then it's the Worst Plot Device Ever. Dream episodes =
bad, mm'kay? (Just my opinion; nothing personal, y'know...)
-Tafka-
Why doesn't "phonetic" start with an F?
Gunnar Harboe
wrote:
>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Gunnar Harboe wrote:
>> On 12 Nov 2002 17:47:33 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
>> wrote:
>>>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Gunnar Harboe wrote:
>>>> On 12 Nov 2002 16:23:14 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Gunnar Harboe wrote:
>>>>>> SPOILERS FOR 7x07
>
>Opinion of _Angel_ 4x06 (and, indeed, S4 to date) down the bottom. No plot
>spoilers.
I'm gonna give away a quote, though.
Are you saying the logic was insane and happenstance, like that of a
troll?
>>>and
>>>Dawn's were mostly just for show.
>>
>> I wouldn't mind more of this kind of show. The pure kickboxing/exploding
>> buildings action has always left me cold, but some horror scares would
>> liven up the series no end.
>
>I didn't find any of it scary, though. I just wanted them to cut to the
>chase - the interesting thing for me is trying to work out which side
>Joyce was on.
Aha! So you don't believe with Chapman that it's settled, then.
>>> Andrew and Jonathan were fun, though.
>>
>> Yeah, even if they went a bit heavy on Jonathan's essential goodness at
>> the end. Why didn't he just slip into a red jumper?
>
>Well, I didn't see his death coming... :-(
Well, I wasn't sitting there waiting for it, but I wasn't surprised.
>>>And scary? I can't say I thought it was scary. Atmospheric, yes, scary,
>>>now.
>>
>> If dead parents turning up in your living room isn't scary, I don't know
>> what is.
>
>Given that it was played as *comforting* to Dawn to have her dead parent
>turn up in her living room...
What's comforting to Dawn may be disturbing to the audience.
>What was meant to be scary was the thing attacking Joyce. But it wasn't. I
>didn't jump, it's not going to give me nightmares. The story sucked me in
>and got involved, but that's not my definition of 'scary', is all.
Well, 'The Shining' is my definition of scary, and this was definitely
in that territory.
I just hope the season ends with Buffy picking up an axe: "Dawnie!
Dawnie, I'm coming! You can't get away! I'm right behind you!"
Anyone want to write a petition that Ultimate Drew and Diego Gutierrez
co-write the season ender (7x22: 'Here's Buffy!')?
>>>> but I must say
>>>> 'Angel' has needed good writers more desperately than Buffy for the last
>>>> year. Cancel it and consolidate the talent on Buffy, I say.
>>>>
>>>> You have a somewhat different perspective on it, I guess.
>>>
>>>You could say that. :-p
>>
>> Well, I'll be watching 'Spin the Bottle' now, so maybe I'll come around.
>
>I thought it was good, but not great (like most of the episodes this
>season, to be honest. No stinkers yet, and a lot of really nice moments,
>but the season hasn't *quite* clicked so far).
I'll forgive it it's essentially fluffy nature for the line "I know
who's president. And I wish I didn't."
This is the first time any character on either show has indicated a
political preference, I believe (except for communist-turned-capitalist
Anya, of course).
>>>Mr Goddard is doing ep 9 though as well, I believe. Prolific so-and-so...
>>
>> Excellent ... eeexcellent!
>
>And before then: David Fury. Getting to write EvilSpike (or at least
>FakeEvilSpike). Should be fun.
I don't really rate David Fury. His work ranges from perfectly OK to
abysmally bad, with the average being somewhere around mediocre.
Mattia Valente
> of Espenson. Of course, that may just be due to the 'insane troll logic'
> reference)
Quite. It was rather reference-tastic, though, wasn't it?
>>>Willow's scenes didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know;
>>
>>True, but I thought they were well written, emotional without the worst
>>Sarah McLachlan excesses.
>
> True. And they don't hinge on the reveal at the end, either; as soon as
> the episode title had flashed up I'd worked out that this was going to be
> when the First Evil (assuming that's what it is) made it's reappearance.
Indeed. They stand on their own, pretty much, and do it quite well, when
all's said and done. And anyway, isn't this like the second time ever
that we've had an onscreen title?
>>I wouldn't mind more of this kind of show. The pure kickboxing/exploding
>>buildings action has always left me cold, but some horror scares would
>>liven up the series no end.
>
> I didn't find any of it scary, though. I just wanted them to cut to the
> chase - the interesting thing for me is trying to work out which side
> Joyce was on.
Well, it wigged me, I'd say. Not in the same league as 'Afterlife'
freakishness, but, unfortunately, the Dawn bits were the ones that held
the least overall interest. It's sort of the question, isn't it? Was
that apparition Joyce, or was it just another wedge being driven between
them?
>>>Andrew and Jonathan were fun, though.
>>
>>Yeah, even if they went a bit heavy on Jonathan's essential goodness at
>>the end. Why didn't he just slip into a red jumper?
>
> Well, I didn't see his death coming... :-(
*sniff*
Neither did I. I knew the guys were gonna be in it again, they were off
filming in between 'South' and 'North' (yes, I was spoiled for that..no
way not to be, really), and I really like what they've done with it to
date. This is all shaping up rather well, overall, I'd say. Coming
together nicely.
>>>(And Spike? We're all agreed that's not really what it appears to be,
>>>right?)
>>
>>That didn't even occur to me, but now that it's been pointed out, of
>>course I think you're right.
Hmm...
> Yeah, the guy has a chip and a soul. Something is most definitely Up.
It is. It's confusing. But oh dear lord that was a 'whoa, tingly'
moment. I'm so, so intruiged.
> (Whilst I'm here: 'Him'. Now, the ep wasn't great (I don't like 'humour'
> based on making the audience cringe), but it wasn't irredemably bad. But
> what the hell was up with Dawn comparing Spike and Xander, as if attempted
> rape and leaving someone at the altar were equivalent acts?)
Dawn's confused? But c'mon, there were some classic funny moments in
there. I laughed more than was strictly decent or required, though,
that's for damned sure.
>>>I would. This was great for establishing the playing field, setting things
>>>up; but now we need some actual plot.
>>
>>I love the hallucinatory feel. Always have.
>
> Sure, but for 22 episodes? Might get a little samey. :-)
Duh.
>>If dead parents turning up in your living room isn't scary, I don't know
>>what is.
>
> Given that it was played as *comforting* to Dawn to have her dead parent
> turn up in her living room...
...but it wasn't, in the end.
> What was meant to be scary was the thing attacking Joyce. But it wasn't. I
> didn't jump, it's not going to give me nightmares. The story sucked me in
> and got involved, but that's not my definition of 'scary', is all.
Well, ok. I'm rarely ever wigged by an ep of either Buffy or Angel,
though, I gotta admit.
>>Well, I'll be watching 'Spin the Bottle' now, so maybe I'll come around.
>
> I thought it was good, but not great (like most of the episodes this
> season, to be honest. No stinkers yet, and a lot of really nice moments,
> but the season hasn't *quite* clicked so far).
Well, no. Whereas Buffy has, as per this episode, made a really loud
clicky noise. But then, it's had more eps than Angel, so, well, there ya go.
>>>Mr Goddard is doing ep 9 though as well, I believe. Prolific so-and-so...
>>
>>Excellent ... eeexcellent!
>
> And before then: David Fury. Getting to write EvilSpike (or at least
> FakeEvilSpike). Should be fun.
Hooom. Could still be Evil. Like, maybe. Just 'cause he has a soul don't
have to mean anything. Or something. Maybe he has an evil twin.
Mattia
--
"If vampires couldn't have erections, our show would have been
12 episodes long." - Joss Whedon
Mattia Valente
Well no. But a contender for the biggest 'whoa' moment of the season,
and one of the best eps.
> I'm not sure this is my new favourite episode, but Ultimate Drew is
> definitely my new favourite writer.
Meh, dunno, maybe. Probably, even. But we've got 1.5 episodes to his
name to date, so it may be a tad early.
> And he's working up a Tim
> Minear-like knack for killing recurring characters, too.
Heh.
> RIP Jonathan.
*sniff*
I so, so did not see that coming. At all.
> At least now that the show has gone all the way, being dead probably
> *increases* your chances of appearing in future episodes.
Heh..
> I take it we're in sweeps?
Aye. Full-on. What gave it away?
Mattia
--
"Tim Mewling Fucking Sodding Balls Minear" - Tim signing off in
umta
Niall Harrison
I just don't think it's got the longevity. For me, a lot of its power
comes from the 'whoa that's so cool!' factor. It's very, very stylish, and
there are a lot of great developments; but I can't help thinking that the
only scenes with any real weight - the only ones I think I'll get
something more out of when I rewatch the episode - are Buffy's.
Willow's scenes didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know; and
Dawn's were mostly just for show. Andrew and Jonathan were fun, though.
(And Spike? We're all agreed that's not really what it appears to be,
right?)
> I think it'd definitely make my top three non-gimmick-episode list,
> though.
>
> OK, so maybe it is a gimmick
'Maybe'? :-)
> -- but it's a gimmick I wouldn't mind more of.
I would. This was great for establishing the playing field, setting things
up; but now we need some actual plot.
And scary? I can't say I thought it was scary. Atmospheric, yes, scary,
now.
> but I must say
> 'Angel' has needed good writers more desperately than Buffy for the last
> year. Cancel it and consolidate the talent on Buffy, I say.
>
> You have a somewhat different perspective on it, I guess.
You could say that. :-p
Mr Goddard is doing ep 9 though as well, I believe. Prolific so-and-so...
Niall
--
A little charm and a lot of style.
Gunnar Harboe
wrote:
Huh. Those are the ones I wouldn't really care to watch again, except
for the sake of analysis (sake-of-analysis, psychoanalysis, geddit?!
Gedditt?!!).
>Willow's scenes didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know;
True, but I thought they were well written, emotional without the worst
Sarah McLachlan excesses.
> and
>Dawn's were mostly just for show.
I wouldn't mind more of this kind of show. The pure kickboxing/exploding
buildings action has always left me cold, but some horror scares would
liven up the series no end.
> Andrew and Jonathan were fun, though.
Yeah, even if they went a bit heavy on Jonathan's essential goodness at
the end. Why didn't he just slip into a red jumper?
>(And Spike? We're all agreed that's not really what it appears to be,
>right?)
That didn't even occur to me, but now that it's been pointed out, of
course I think you're right.
>> I think it'd definitely make my top three non-gimmick-episode list,
>> though.
>>
>> OK, so maybe it is a gimmick
>
>'Maybe'? :-)
>
>> -- but it's a gimmick I wouldn't mind more of.
>
>I would. This was great for establishing the playing field, setting things
>up; but now we need some actual plot.
I love the hallucinatory feel. Always have. And I never thought acute
sense of danger to Dawn would have me anything but cheering.
>And scary? I can't say I thought it was scary. Atmospheric, yes, scary,
>now.
If dead parents turning up in your living room isn't scary, I don't know
what is.
>> but I must say
>> 'Angel' has needed good writers more desperately than Buffy for the last
>> year. Cancel it and consolidate the talent on Buffy, I say.
>>
>> You have a somewhat different perspective on it, I guess.
>
>You could say that. :-p
Well, I'll be watching 'Spin the Bottle' now, so maybe I'll come around.
>Mr Goddard is doing ep 9 though as well, I believe. Prolific so-and-so...
Excellent ... eeexcellent!
Shuggie
wrote:
Nah. It's an excellent ep - but I can think of 10 better without a
struggle.
>Passion, Becoming, Hush, Restless, The Body, OMWF ... I have no doubt
>Conversations with Dead People will be named in the same breath as
>these.
>
Possibly. One thing nearly all those (apart from Restless which I
personally have never rated above "quite good") have going for them
which this doesn't - and that is that they have a complete story in the
episode (ok in both eps in the case of Becoming). CwDP is mostly set-up
for the future.
But having said *all that*....
I loved this ep. The stuff with Dawn was genuinely creepy and they
managed to make her sympathetic. The stuff with the psych-101 vamp was
great too. I love the idea of a character who's evil not by trying to
kill you but by gaining your trust and exposing all your insecurities.
Plus all the speculation - what's with Spike, was that really Joyce?
Plus the dialogue was great -
"I'm here to kill you not judge you"
"It eats you starting with your bottom!"
:)
>I'm not sure this is my new favourite episode, but Ultimate Drew is
>definitely my new favourite writer.
He's 2 for 2 that's for sure. (OK 1.5 for 1.5 but that doesn't have
quite the same ring ;) There's a reason I'm minion #89. This guy is
*good*.
Jane's good too.
> And he's working up a Tim
>Minear-like knack for killing recurring characters, too. RIP Jonathan.
Yeah I guess. Not that killing regs is a good (or bad) thing per se in
my book. Sad to see Jonathan go though - he's been around since the
pilot man!
>At least now that the show has gone all the way, being dead probably
>*increases* your chances of appearing in future episodes.
>
heh
>I take it we're in sweeps?
Damn straight!
--
Shug
Shuggie
<notint...@notinterested.in.your.spam.com> wrote:
>"Gunnar Harboe" <gh...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
>news:p752tusu2u7d2can6...@4ax.com...
>
>I was beginning to wonder if this newsgroup was dead ;-)
>
<snip>
>
>Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the only other episode that actually had
>the episode title at the start was OMWF (except for the few occasions where
>they've edited together two episodes into a double episode).
>
Not only the title but the date and time - this is significant in some
way?
One thing that occurs to me is that we'll find out later that Spike, the
real Spike, was somewhere else at 8:01 on Nov 12th other than the
Bronze. But since none of the Scoobies saw him that seems irrelevant.
Or maybe they'll do a Back to the Future II (which Joss has actually
joked about doing) and re-visit that scene from a different perspective.
I can imagine you could write a really cool episode where the last shot
is basically the first shot of tonight's ep.
Anyone else got thoughts on why the date and time were shown?
--
Shug
Dave Emberton
news:p752tusu2u7d2can6...@4ax.com...
I was beginning to wonder if this newsgroup was dead ;-)
> SPOILERS FOR 7x07
Really?
Not sure what to make of this one. It's good to see (as with last week's
split screen stuff), they're not afraid to shake up the format a little bit,
which is no bad thing this far into the shows life. I think the Dawn stuff
worked well (although it was straying well into Close Encounters and/or The
Shining territory), Buffy being psycho-analysed by a vamp was amusing at
first, but got on my nevers after a while, but the Willow talking to
Cassie/Tara I found a bit dull.
Presumably we had Azura Skye as they couldn't get Amber Benson back. Not
necessarily a bad thing.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC the only other episode that actually had
the episode title at the start was OMWF (except for the few occasions where
they've edited together two episodes into a double episode).
The nerds: quite amusing, especially Warren doing the "No, there is another"
Star Wars thing. But what exactly was the point of Jonathan being sacrificed
like that? If it was simply a case of the big bad thing under the school
needing a sacrifice, then why Jonathan? Wouldn't it have been easier to find
someone from the school? It is traditional to sacrifice virgins after all
(which Jonathan isn't - remember the twins?).
So was it really Spike doing the vamping? Or was it the Big Bad pretending
to be Spike? Clearly there's some connection between why Spike got his soul
back and the whole "it eats you, starting with the bottom" thing. If it was
Spike, then his chip wasn't activating as he did it, but you could explain
that by saying that he didn't know he was doing it, he was under some kind
of brain control or hypnotic suggestion.
And here's a more radical thought: did any of this really happen? Given the
slightly unreal nature of everything, it could easily have been a collective
dream, or an individuals dream. Xander's dream perhaps (seeing as he had no
other connection to the episode).
I'd say a quite good episode. But in no way a contender for best Buffy ever.
Of course, it might grow on me when I get a decent SVCD of it to watch.
Dave
andy1881
wowsers what an ep... is it possible to put so many questions inside an
episode and make it stick? well.... I think yes, just... they certainly
pushed us on this one. I dont think it was conclusive enough to be a 'best
episode ever' - as I say, so many questions asked and very very few answers,
but at this stage in the season it rocked about as much as OMWF did in the
last.
I'm not even gonna pretend to say I understood even half of what went on and
I'm not about to start guessing but needless to say the chances of me *not*
watching the next ep are slimmer than Calista Flockhart's waistline...
andy
Dave Emberton
news:1dq2tukjb580258nk...@4ax.com...
So far I've really liked "Same Time, Same Place", "Help", and "Him", which
were all one-offs. But I've been a lot less sure about all the arc/"From
Beneath You.."/Spike with a soul stuff.
> Dawn was, as others have said, more 'feh' than worrying - and
> Glowing!Joyce? Bad things glow like that, bad things...
> ("Tomorrow"...). And I really didn't like last week, for what it's
> worth.
Oh yeah, I forgot glowing Joyce. Lame.
> >The nerds: quite amusing, especially Warren doing the "No, there is
another"
> >Star Wars thing. But what exactly was the point of Jonathan being
sacrificed
> >like that? If it was simply a case of the big bad thing under the school
> >needing a sacrifice, then why Jonathan? Wouldn't it have been easier to
find
> >someone from the school? It is traditional to sacrifice virgins after all
> >(which Jonathan isn't - remember the twins?).
>
> They were going to leave him last season, weren't they? It was only
> Jonathan telling Buffy about the spheres that allowed her to gain the
> upper hand in her fight with Warren at the time then.
>
> I just saw it as 1) more realistic for him to be killed by
> Warren/Andrew due to not needing another person to be "kidnapped" and
> brought along and 2) as above; them ridding themselves of him.
The way I read it was that "The Other" (if that's what we're calling the big
bad), had engineered Jonathan's sacrifice through appearing to Andrew as
Warren. So "The Other" needed a sacrifice, not that it needed Jonathan and
Andrew in particular.
>
> >So was it really Spike doing the vamping? Or was it the Big Bad
pretending
> >to be Spike?
>
> I'd say Spike, because what need would there to be for BB to pretend
> to be Spike besides Buffy getting pissed off and (finally) staking
> him?
It's a distraction to the slayer though...
>
> >Clearly there's some connection between why Spike got his soul
> >back and the whole "it eats you, starting with the bottom" thing.
>
> There is?
Well I think so. If "The Other" is some kind of ultimate dark power, and
Buffy is connected to the darkness somehow, then this is all sounding like
some kind of prophecy. Why did Spike end up in the basement being tormented?
Because the power that restored his soul is the same as that that is about
to rise, and Spike is part of the plan. Perhaps restoring Spike's soul is a
way of bringing the slayer to trust him or even care about him more, and if
Spike is under control of The Other, then he could be used as a weapon
against the slayer at the right moment.
Any power about to rise in Sunnydale would surely see the slayer as some
kind of threat to that (just ask The Master, The Mayor and Glory), so any
way that a member of the slayer's inner circle could be used against her
would be advantageous. A vampire (who is after all, evil) might be able to
be control by an evil force, whereas a human might not. Perhaps Spike never
really got his soul back, and it's all some kind of trick on him, or
perhaps, it was never really the real Spike at all?
I think I need to lie down now.
Dave
Mark Scott-Simons
wrote:
>>>>>> SPOILERS FOR 7x07
>>>(And Spike? We're all agreed that's not really what it appears to be,
>>>right?)
>>
>> That didn't even occur to me, but now that it's been pointed out, of
>> course I think you're right.
>
>Yeah, the guy has a chip and a soul. Something is most definitely Up.
Time to re-evalute whether his chip still works. The scene in Beneath
You springs to mind.
Scotty
Mark Scott-Simons
>Not only the title but the date and time - this is significant in some
>way?
>
>One thing that occurs to me is that we'll find out later that Spike, the
>real Spike, was somewhere else at 8:01 on Nov 12th other than the
>Bronze. But since none of the Scoobies saw him that seems irrelevant.
>
>Or maybe they'll do a Back to the Future II (which Joss has actually
>joked about doing) and re-visit that scene from a different perspective.
>I can imagine you could write a really cool episode where the last shot
>is basically the first shot of tonight's ep.
>
>Anyone else got thoughts on why the date and time were shown?
If its not significant then its a really cheap mislead. Saying that we
have the complete absence of Xander in the episode. Not sure if that's
happened before? Or if its even relevant? Did NB wont a week off for
a holiday?
Will next weeks episode follow straight on from this timewise ie
Willow and Buffy come back to a wrecked house. Which should lead to
Willow and Dawn informing Buffy of their experiences. Which
would/should make Dawn re-evaluate her encounter with ???
Unless Buffy goes straight to Xanders to protect him/confront Spike.
If this episode has done anything its built up my expectations for
next week.
Scotty
Shuggie
wrote:
>SPOILERS FOR 7x07
Was anyone else thinking this -
OK - so poltergeist activity, non-friendly ghosts - something needs to
be done - but putting an axe through the TV will help? Did we learn
nothing from Afterlife? That's coming out of your allowance young lady!
:)
dieter
news:10372137...@urchin.earth.li:
>> Time to re-evalute whether his chip still works. The scene in Beneath
>> You springs to mind.
>
> The scene that demonstrated conclusively that the chip still worked?
>
> Niall
>
Can't agree with you there. I strongly had the feeling he screamed
because he anticipated pain, but his amazed expression showed that there
was none.
Jonathan Dupont
Uh ... no. But best episode at least since Tabula Rasa, yes. Maybe
(not counting you-know-what) The Gift. Was very good, anyhow.
> I'm not sure this is my new favourite episode, but Ultimate Drew is
> definitely my new favourite writer. And he's working up a Tim
> Minear-like knack for killing recurring characters, too. RIP Jonathan.
> At least now that the show has gone all the way, being dead probably
> *increases* your chances of appearing in future episodes.
Ultimate Drew is indeed very good, although I have a feeling that my
favourite scenes (the Buffy ones) were written by Jane, and the rest
by him. If so, that would make it my favourite Jane work since
Earshot, which is rather ironic.
On that whole subject, I'm glad that in this season we're at least
likely to see Danny Strong again - he's been with them for so long and
all, that I wouldn't like them to abandon him now. Hopefully they've
already got contracts sorted out we so don't have a similar mess to
this one. I really, really didn't see his death coming.
Buffy, Angel and Firefly all seem to be ramping up, which is nice.
Next week we have first sign of continuity in Firefly and in Angel the
start of what Joss called "the most intense period in their lives" or
something like that. As for Buffy, all the writers and actors seem to
think that whatever is lined up is very cool. We will see.
A few random things -
- As mentioned by other people, Xander and Anya weren't in this one.
Isn't this Nick's first no show ever? Wonder how he took that one. I
have to admit to missing him ever less than I have Dawn when she's
gone. OTOH, him talking to Jesse would've been very nice.
- Apparently Joss co-wrote the song at the beginning and end. He
really is churning them out at old excuse now, isn't he? (Firefly
intro theme, Selfless, etc.)
Jon
Niall Harrison
The scene that demonstrated conclusively that the chip still worked?
Niall
Mark Evans
No Anya either.
> Will next weeks episode follow straight on from this timewise ie
> Willow and Buffy come back to a wrecked house. Which should lead to
> Willow and Dawn informing Buffy of their experiences. Which
> would/should make Dawn re-evaluate her encounter with ???
> Unless Buffy goes straight to Xanders to protect him/confront Spike.
Maybe Xander knows how to make a difficult insurance claim.
Mark Evans
But Dawn got it sussed in the end. The Willow type approach worked
rather better than the Buffy type.
Dan Milburn
I'd have to agree. The guy who played the vamp was very good.
> Willow's scenes didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know;
Much as I loved Tara, I wish she'd get over it.. Plus, the twist here was
very predictable.
> and Dawn's were mostly just for show. Andrew and Jonathan were fun,
> though.
Good to have them back, even if..
> (And Spike? We're all agreed that's not really what it appears to be,
> right?)
Dunno. I'm struggling to think of any good reason why it wouldn't be.
>> I think it'd definitely make my top three non-gimmick-episode list,
>> though.
>>
>> OK, so maybe it is a gimmick
>
> 'Maybe'? :-)
You're comfortable with your use of the word 'maybe' here are you? ;)
>> -- but it's a gimmick I wouldn't mind more of.
>
> I would. This was great for establishing the playing field, setting
> things up; but now we need some actual plot.
Indeed. I think it's pretty certain we're going to get it.
> And scary? I can't say I thought it was scary. Atmospheric, yes, scary,
> now.
No, not scary.
>> but I must say
>> 'Angel' has needed good writers more desperately than Buffy for the
>> last year. Cancel it and consolidate the talent on Buffy, I say.
>>
>> You have a somewhat different perspective on it, I guess.
>
> You could say that. :-p
I think both have writers of very variable quality.
> Mr Goddard is doing ep 9 though as well, I believe. Prolific
> so-and-so...
Well, he rocks. I have no problem with that. Anyone know who's doing
next weeks?
Dan
Niall Harrison
> Dan Milburn <daniel...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:pan.2002.11.14.14...@hotmail.com:
>> Much as I loved Tara, I wish she'd get over it..
>
> Hmm, six months to get over the brutal death of the love of her life,
> huh?
> Come on, it would be insane to say that Willow should already be her old
> self again. I know this is TV-country but it can't (and shouldn't)work
> that way.
For me, it's not that she's not over it, it's just that watching her not
get over it isn't all that enthralling. Her grief-stricken scenes are
coming off as all much of a muchness; I feel they could be doing more
delving into Willow's emotions about the event, which must be hugely
complex.
Doesn't suck, it's just not the most compelling aspect of the season for
me. I do have to say, though, that I love Cassie to bits. She's great.
bolle boos
"Gunnar Harboe" <gh...@cam.ac.uk> schreef in bericht
news:p752tusu2u7d2can6...@4ax.com...
>
> Conversations with Dead People will be named in the same breath as
> these.
>
> definitely my new favourite writer. And he's working up a Tim
> Minear-like knack for killing recurring characters, too. RIP Jonathan.
> At least now that the show has gone all the way, being dead probably
> *increases* your chances of appearing in future episodes.
>
Well I wasn`t swept. ;7)
Actually, my thoughts are, what the **** do I do with this episode?
It`s just not , well, ...........not,............... not one or the other.
Maybe it will fall into place when the other eps show and I can make
something out this one. But for now, I haven`t the faintest how or where
to categorize this one.
It didn`t do much for me (yet???, maybe?)
dieter
> On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:47:33 +0000, Niall Harrison wrote:
> Much as I loved Tara, I wish she'd get over it..
Dan Milburn
wrote:
I never said she should be. The main reason for that, though, is not
about her getting over Taras death, it's about her getting over what
she did afterwards, who *she* is.
>>I know this is TV-country but it can't (and shouldn't)work
>> that way.
I can't really express my feelings on this issue clearly. Basically,
Dawns continued grief about her mother worked much better for me than
the Willow stuff, and I'm really not sure why.
>For me, it's not that she's not over it, it's just that watching her not
>get over it isn't all that enthralling. Her grief-stricken scenes are
>coming off as all much of a muchness; I feel they could be doing more
>delving into Willow's emotions about the event, which must be hugely
>complex.
Yeah, I think that's what I meant. :) I mean, Aly can still bring a
tear to my eye just with the way she says her name, but there is,
there should be more to it than that, and it just wasn't there in this
ep.
>Doesn't suck, it's just not the most compelling aspect of the season for
>me. I do have to say, though, that I love Cassie to bits. She's great.
Still not getting that. As guest stars go, vamp psychiatrist boy was
*way* better.
Dan
Iain Clark
> ... Best 'Buffy' episode ever?
>
Nowhere near, but it was bloody good! It's definitely one of my
favourite episodes, but in the top 20 rather than the top 10.
>Passion, Becoming, Hush, Restless, The Body, OMWF ... I have no doubt
>Conversations with Dead People will be named in the same breath as
>these.
>
As in "Conversations with Dead People was really good, but not in the
same league as..." :-)
I liked it lots, though.
Iain
--
"Caught a bolt of lightning
Cursed the day he let it go"
Iain Clark
wrote:
>
>Can't agree with you there. I strongly had the feeling he screamed
>because he anticipated pain, but his amazed expression showed that there
>was none.
I disagree.
He clearly was in pain every time he hit a human in "Help".
Niall Harrison
> On 12 Nov 2002 18:30:18 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Gunnar Harboe wrote:
>>> On 12 Nov 2002 17:47:33 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Gunnar Harboe wrote:
>>>>> On 12 Nov 2002 16:23:14 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Gunnar Harboe wrote:
>>>>>>> SPOILERS FOR 7x07
>>
>>Opinion of _Angel_ 4x06 (and, indeed, S4 to date) down the bottom. No plot
>>spoilers.
>>
[Spike]
> I'm sure his connection with the big evil is somehow involved. But
> it's bloody hard to explain what we just saw.
Well, we know the Big Evil can impersonate dead people. And Spike is
dead...
['Him']
>>But
>>what the hell was up with Dawn comparing Spike and Xander, as if attempted
>>rape and leaving someone at the altar were equivalent acts?)
>
> (Yes, but in the context of what she was saying, the point was that
> men often treat women badly, to greater or lesser degrees. So it was
> a stupid comparison, she's a teenager - give her a break! <g>)
(But this was *before* she got whammied with the love spell. This was Dawn
being sensible and normal. It reeked of Author's Voice, and that hurt)
> Finally, the storylines all turn out to be connected by the one Big
> Bad.
Whaddya mean, 'finally'? Did anyone not guess this by the middle of act I?
Did anyone think, even for a second, that Cassie was genuine?
Iain Clark
Ah, but wasn't Jeff Bell being heralded as the second coming of Tim
Minear after a mere 1.0 Angel episodes? Or am I forgetting part of
his resume?
I have to say Drew has been involved in the two strongest episodes of
the season. In fact the two best episodes since Dead Things. Has to
be a good omen :-)
If he has a weakness I'm sensing it'll be an over-reliance on past
continuity, but the new stuff seems solid enough so we'll see.
> > And he's working up a Tim
>> Minear-like knack for killing recurring characters, too.
>
>Heh.
>
> > RIP Jonathan.
>
>*sniff*
>
>I so, so did not see that coming. At all.
>
Me either. Appreciated, though as there's only so much of Jonathan
and wotsisface I can take, and it was a very effective scene that drew
on the good bits of last season's arc.
Iain Clark
wrote:
*raises hand*
Basically it initially played for me like a standalone (but cool)
episode. I thought there was a force raising lots of dead people,
good bad or indifferent, and that what it amounted to was a series of
nice, character based, but ultimately unconnected vignettes involving
conversations with dead people.
Jonathan and co would find the source of the demon sigil that was
raising the dead and inadvertently save Sunnydale. Everything back to
normal. The end.
As usual I was spot on ;-)
Saskia
Clark sings:
> >> Bad.
> >
> >Whaddya mean, 'finally'? Did anyone not guess this by the middle of act I?
> >Did anyone think, even for a second, that Cassie was genuine?
> >
> *raises hand*
/me too. I totally fell for it.
And I'm liking it. Not yet another big ugly invincible monster that - in
the end - turns out to be not so invincible. This one is cunning, clever,
utterly sadistic and has much power. Most interesting. Keep it up, stay
awy from the 'big ugly monster' thing and I'm game.
> Jonathan and co would find the source of the demon sigil that was
> raising the dead and inadvertently save Sunnydale. Everything back to
> normal. The end.
>
> As usual I was spot on ;-)
Hehehe
--
Saskia
"Why is it, every time I go somewhere with you, it always ends in
violence and terror?"
Iain Clark
wrote:
>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Gunnar Harboe wrote:
>> On 12 Nov 2002 17:47:33 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
>> wrote:
>>>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Gunnar Harboe wrote:
>>>> On 12 Nov 2002 16:23:14 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Gunnar Harboe wrote:
>>>>>> SPOILERS FOR 7x07
>
>Opinion of _Angel_ 4x06 (and, indeed, S4 to date) down the bottom. No plot
>spoilers.
>
>>>I just don't think it's got the longevity. For me, a lot of its power
>>>comes from the 'whoa that's so cool!' factor. It's very, very stylish, and
>>>there are a lot of great developments; but I can't help thinking that the
>>>only scenes with any real weight - the only ones I think I'll get
>>>something more out of when I rewatch the episode - are Buffy's.
True in a sense. but the proportion of "weightiness" to "stuff" was
about average. It was just oddly distributed.
>>>(And Spike? We're all agreed that's not really what it appears to be,
>>>right?)
>>
>> That didn't even occur to me, but now that it's been pointed out, of
>> course I think you're right.
>
>Yeah, the guy has a chip and a soul. Something is most definitely Up.
>
I'm thinking so. Although it's entirely possible that it was all
misdirection and he's been faking it since 7x01. But somehow I don't
buy that.
I'm sure his connection with the big evil is somehow involved. But
it's bloody hard to explain what we just saw.
>(Whilst I'm here: 'Him'. Now, the ep wasn't great (I don't like 'humour'
>based on making the audience cringe), but it wasn't irredemably bad.
> But
>what the hell was up with Dawn comparing Spike and Xander, as if attempted
>rape and leaving someone at the altar were equivalent acts?)
(Yes, but in the context of what she was saying, the point was that
men often treat women badly, to greater or lesser degrees. So it was
a stupid comparison, she's a teenager - give her a break! <g>)
>>>I would. This was great for establishing the playing field, setting things
>>>up; but now we need some actual plot.
>>
The style of the piece gave the impression of plotlessness; a series
of vignettes. Yet the Dawn storyline had a beginning, middle and end,
as to a lesser extent did the Buffy one, the Spike one and the Willow
one. Each story was quite simple, but it wasn't just "Dinner with
Andre" for 45 minutes. There was drama, and character stuff,
progression, thematic connections....
Finally, the storylines all turn out to be connected by the one Big
Bad. My guess is that Cassie, Joyce and Warren were all basically the
same thing. The Vamp was real, but connected to the others through
Spike.
It's build up, but it has things to say in its own right. Would have
made a great halloween episode, actually.
>>>And scary? I can't say I thought it was scary. Atmospheric, yes, scary,
>>>now.
>>
>> If dead parents turning up in your living room isn't scary, I don't know
>> what is.
>
>Given that it was played as *comforting* to Dawn to have her dead parent
>turn up in her living room...
>
It was kind of comforting, especially towards the end. But the
initial ghostly voice, then the apparition of the corpse, the
thumping.... it all seemed darned creepy to me! I had no real
conviction that this was Joyce back in a good way.
>What was meant to be scary was the thing attacking Joyce. But it wasn't. I
>didn't jump, it's not going to give me nightmares. The story sucked me in
>and got involved, but that's not my definition of 'scary', is all.
>
The whole Dawn/Joyce storyline seriously creeped me out, actually -
as much as After Life. Especially that first shot of Joyce's body
slumped on the couch behind her. And the...thing... hunched over her
was pretty nasty too.
Reminded me in some ways of Dawn's attempt to do the 'Monkey's Paw'
routine in "Forever".
Iain Clark
Never mind that - putting an axe through the microwave! Does the girl
have some kind of deathwish? :-)
Gunnar Harboe
10 episodes better than CwDP? I'm drawing a whole lot of blanks...
Linda
I can name at least ten but there would be a whole lotta people who disagreed
with me.
In no particular order:
Angel
When She Was Bad
Prophecy Girl
Becoming I
Becoming II
GDI
GDII
Surprise
Innocence
Passion
IOHEFY
Halloween
Some Assembly Required
What's My Line I
What's My Line II
Who Are You?
This Year's Girl
Lie to Me
The Dark Age
Enemies
Forever
OMWF
Hush
Fear, Itself
The Gift
The Body
They're all episodes that I liked better.
--
Best Regards,
Linda
Mmmmmm...Angel