'Angel' 4.11
pikelet
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'Soulless'.
Ooer.
Watched it, then watched it again.
Last week we got Angel's inner hopes and fears out in the open, just
so's we didn't have to do it this week when we were doing everyone
else's.
Angelus may have a thing for nuns, but Angel apparently spends his
night spanking the bishop whilst listening to Fred.
Cordy's being... weird. I preferred her at the start of season three -
there, at least, she had mind-numbing and borderline fatal vision
pains to contend with to make her so humourless and dry. I'm not sure
what's been going on with her this season, and I'm no closer to
knowing it from here, either.
Angelus seems awfully keen to spill the beans for a chance to spend
time with Cordy - maybe he's not so smart after all.
Wesley's a bad bad man, and a slave to his lust. Fighting over a girl,
indeed.
Gunn's got his beard again, presumably from the hair that Angel had
cut off earlier in the season.
So Fred's a bit of a moaner, eh? Could probably have done without that
image. Ditto the 'big bald head' comment. Because I really don't think
Angelus is referring to Gunn's lack of cranial hair.
Connor's little speech actually made me go 'Ooh' a couple of times.
Especially with the open acknowledgement of the fact that he'd rather
view Angelus as his father than Angel - seems like it's not something
he's been saying just to hack his dad off, it's something he's got a
belief in.
Only the second time that Darla's been mentioned since she staked
herself. Can't help but think that the reference earlier this season
was made solely so they could use her name later to annoy Connor.
No explanation of why Angelus could remember what Angel couldn't, bar
the idea that Angel was somehow repressing the memory himself.
Angelus in 'Buffy' always used to refer to himself as being 'me',
whether it was Angel or Angelus at issue - here, we've got Angelus
referring to Angel as 'him'. It was one of the psychological tricks he
used a lot on Buffy - pretending that he was still Angel on some
level, just to annoy her. Perhaps here we've got the truth of the
matter - that Angel/us regards the alter-ego as being a truly separate
personality, rather than the same personality (un)leashed? If it *is*
the fact of the matter, then perhaps he's openly acknowledging it here
in order to play to a more sophisticated audience.
Who stole the bottle? It's either been teleported out of the safe, or
it's been stolen by someone at AI who knows the combination.
Mr Beast is still one step ahead.
Wesley can hold his own in a fight, and Gunn's an inadvertent
woman-beater. Tsk tsk.
Angelus may be 'smart', but he can't remember the name of 'Oedipus
Rex', and seems to think that Desdemona doesn't love Othello. On the
other hand, he knows the first one and is just kinda joking. And, as
to the second, I don't think it's a mistake that he mentions Desdemona
not being in love with Othello. The whole point of the play is that
she *does* love him, but he gets the wrong end of the stick and ends
up killing her because he's an overly jealous pillock. Angelus here is
playing Iago - tempting Gunn/Othello into believing the worst.
There may yet be mileage in comparing Cassio to Wesley - especially
since they both fall foul of their former leaders' favour.
'Kidnapping the fruit of my loins'/'He survived' - yeah, Wes, like
*that* makes a difference.
Random-Fred-snoggage. And - what's more - RETURNED! Oooh-hoo! Trouble
at mill there, lad.
Lorne - once again - reading something that's potentially very
interesting, only to decline to tell us what it is. Git.
Everyone being shocked by Cordy having it away with Connor, but nobody
really bothering to pick up on Wesley's being accused of 'letting
Lilah get Lorne's brains sucked out'.
Cordy mentioning that AI are Angel's only link to humanity. It's that
'humanising influence' thing again.
Nice 'Raiders' reference. Not quite as amusingly resonant as 'Wood.
Why'd it have to be wood?', but 'traditional phallic sword' was
entertaining.
Angelus is a serious Angelus - not the quippy, jokey Angelus of
'Eternity' and before. It's a quieter version of him that we haven't
really seen since 'Passion' - the broody type that just
people-watches, so he can know just how to push their buttons. 'Didn't
take long,' he says as Gunn and Wesley fight upstairs. He's not in a
fighty-jokey mood here - he's going to let AI fight themselves, save
himself the bother.
I like this. His soul was obviously going to be missing/dropped from
the safe. I'm interested now - very much. Who's got the soul? Why?
How? Did Angelus really know about it beforehand, like he was hinting?
What else happened while Cordy was down there with the camera
disconnected?
Tim.
Andrew Cameron
message news:t2114v4sq1nfsnb5h...@4ax.com...
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> 'Soulless'.
>
> Ooer.
No leather "pants", either.
> Watched it, then watched it again.
I watched it last night, then read your post this morning, then watched it
again :-)
> Angelus may have a thing for nuns, but Angel apparently spends his
> night spanking the bishop whilst listening to Fred.
I'm taking issue with this - it's so not Angel, but it so *is* Angelus to
say something like that... I'm going with it being a lie to humiliate Angel
when the soul is put back (cos let's face it, it will be).
> Cordy's being... weird. I preferred her at the start of season three -
> there, at least, she had mind-numbing and borderline fatal vision
> pains to contend with to make her so humourless and dry. I'm not sure
> what's been going on with her this season, and I'm no closer to
> knowing it from here, either.
She is strange. And the rest of the gang let her go down there alone? And
switch the camera off?
> Angelus seems awfully keen to spill the beans for a chance to spend
> time with Cordy - maybe he's not so smart after all.
Yeah, but it helps to get him annoyed. Plus, if they can't find his soul,
they'll have to deal with a pissed off Angelus instead of the jokey one we
had. I liked the jokey one, by the way - mostly snappy dialogue and same
classic lines. "...you ate babies!".
> Wesley's a bad bad man, and a slave to his lust. Fighting over a girl,
> indeed.
I didn't like this for one reason only - Wes has already proved that he's
rock 'ard - he can kick Gunn's ass any day.
> So Fred's a bit of a moaner, eh?
...and Cordy's a screamer.
> Could probably have done without that image. Ditto the 'big bald head'
comment. Because
> I really don't think Angelus is referring to Gunn's lack of cranial hair.
Only you, Tim. Only you.
> No explanation of why Angelus could remember what Angel couldn't, bar
> the idea that Angel was somehow repressing the memory himself.
This is one of the things that I don't think we can fanwank the writers out
of. They wanted to bring back Angelus, they've done it nicely with a few
flaws, I reckon we have to just ignore the flaws.
However, I'm half-thinking they did it right and half-thinking they didn't.
Angelus is locked in the cage, but he's free. That means that the shaman
guy must have opened the door to come out, while Angelus was free. They
also would have had to take the table he was on, out. I suppose they could
have drugged him, untied him and done the stuff, but it's risky. I
understand that maybe they wanted him loose so they didn't have to go into
the cage every time they fed him and risk his restraints breaking, but I
have a feeling he's going to use the darts they're firing at him, against
them. Those things be sharp and pointy and throwable. So I can't decide if
I like how they've dealt with him.
Anyways, just a short post cos I gotta run (no, I've not *got* the runs)...
Andrew Cameron
Niall Harrison
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> 'Soulless'.
>
> Ooer.
I was on edge the whole time, which isn't bad going considering the whole
'locked in a cage' factor.
> Watched it, then watched it again.
Only had time to watch it once.
> Last week we got Angel's inner hopes and fears out in the open, just
> so's we didn't have to do it this week when we were doing everyone
> else's.
And hey, turns out that Indiana Jones thing was deliberate after all. I
think I need to have seen the Indiana Jones films more recently than ten
years ago.
> Cordy's being... weird. I preferred her at the start of season three -
> there, at least, she had mind-numbing and borderline fatal vision
> pains to contend with to make her so humourless and dry.
Whereas here she's only got Angelus, and knowing that she's in the
position Buffy was in last time around. :-P
> I'm not sure what's been going on with her this season, and I'm no
> closer to knowing it from here, either.
Much as it pains me to admit it, she's the weak point of the show right
now. Not because I've started hating the character or anything, but
because there's no consistency to her actions. There's no real sense of
why she's doing anything she's doing (the above notwithstanding...).
> Angelus seems awfully keen to spill the beans for a chance to spend
> time with Cordy - maybe he's not so smart after all.
[insert comment from Terry or Stephen here]
> Wesley's a bad bad man,
He did a bad bad thing. :-P
> Connor's little speech actually made me go 'Ooh' a couple of times.
> Especially with the open acknowledgement of the fact that he'd rather
> view Angelus as his father than Angel - seems like it's not something
> he's been saying just to hack his dad off, it's something he's got a
> belief in.
Still loving the Connor/Angel dynamic over here.
> No explanation of why Angelus could remember what Angel couldn't, bar
> the idea that Angel was somehow repressing the memory himself.
Yes, that was annoying. Now...do we suspect there may be some kind of
connection between Angelus and the Beast?
> Angelus in 'Buffy' always used to refer to himself as being 'me',
> whether it was Angel or Angelus at issue - here, we've got Angelus
> referring to Angel as 'him'. It was one of the psychological tricks he
> used a lot on Buffy - pretending that he was still Angel on some
> level, just to annoy her. Perhaps here we've got the truth of the
> matter - that Angel/us regards the alter-ego as being a truly separate
> personality, rather than the same personality (un)leashed? If it *is*
> the fact of the matter, then perhaps he's openly acknowledging it here
> in order to play to a more sophisticated audience.
The whole situation forces me to admit that _Angel_ has changed, though.
There's no metaphor here. A bunch of literary allusions, sure, but no
metaphor. _Angel_ is now a full-on Epic Fantasy.
The shameful thing is, if it stays this good, I'm just not going to care.
> There may yet be mileage in comparing Cassio to Wesley - especially
> since they both fall foul of their former leaders' favour.
My knowledge of Shakespeare, Greek myth and indeed most other things you
might lable 'the classics' is shamefully lacking...
> Nice 'Raiders' reference. Not quite as amusingly resonant as 'Wood.
> Why'd it have to be wood?', but 'traditional phallic sword' was
> entertaining.
Why is the 'wood' line funny? No, seriously.
Niall
--
A little charm and a lot of style.
pikelet
<s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> is twanging, all Hoob-like, at me. I calmly
say:
>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - pikelet wrote:
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>> 'Soulless'.
>>
>> Ooer.
>
>I was on edge the whole time, which isn't bad going considering the whole
>'locked in a cage' factor.
True - there was a large 'how's he going to get at them next' factor
to it. Despite his physical inability to act, anyway. And the scene
with Fred getting grabbed nicely underlines how opportunistic Angelus
can be.
>> Watched it, then watched it again.
>
>Only had time to watch it once.
Sucks to be you.
>> Last week we got Angel's inner hopes and fears out in the open, just
>> so's we didn't have to do it this week when we were doing everyone
>> else's.
>
>And hey, turns out that Indiana Jones thing was deliberate after all. I
>think I need to have seen the Indiana Jones films more recently than ten
>years ago.
Going on the evidence of below, I really think you do :-p
>> Cordy's being... weird. I preferred her at the start of season three -
>> there, at least, she had mind-numbing and borderline fatal vision
>> pains to contend with to make her so humourless and dry.
>
>Whereas here she's only got Angelus, and knowing that she's in the
>position Buffy was in last time around. :-P
That's only this week, though.
What struck me was that sensible!Cordy, the one who was
oh-so-sensitive-and-Wise, was the minority Cordy. She was the Cordy
who'd come out of nowhere, out of the dappiness and apparent
shallowness, and give everyone a reality check by virtue of her
straight talkin' no-nonsense thingummyjig. I'm thinking about the
first half of season three (bar the Darla-loving insanity) here, since
that's my favourite incarnation of Cordy. For 'favourite', you may
also choose to read 'least irritation-inspiring', if you so wish).
But ever since she got back from her vacation with Groo, frankly, he's
been 'off'. Like she's stuck in her bleeding heart Sensitive-and-Wise
mode. And what made me realise it was this episode.
Because this is an episode for Sensitive-and-Wise Cordy. For the
taking-no-nonsense Cordy. And what it should be, is a moment when the
audience can notice a difference in her behaviour from normally. What
we got, however, was more blah!Cordy - her being just weird, as
previously this season. And we've just got the one side of her - the
side of her which, up until now, was shown only in the minority of
circumstances. We've lost the balacing idiocy which she previously
had, and the character is jarring as a result.
Lets be honest - for me, Cordy was always the most cringe-worthy
aspect of the show, other than slapstick!Wes, on many occasions. Quite
simply this is for no other reason than that her comedy moments fall
flat for me a lot of the time. This can't be because I don't tolerate
stupidity and/or shallowness in my characters, because I don't mind
Anya over on 'Buffy' half so much. But whereas before Cordy was
intermittently irritating, now she's just *bland*.
>> I'm not sure what's been going on with her this season, and I'm no
>> closer to knowing it from here, either.
>
>Much as it pains me to admit it, she's the weak point of the show right
>now. Not because I've started hating the character or anything, but
>because there's no consistency to her actions. There's no real sense of
>why she's doing anything she's doing (the above notwithstanding...).
See what I've just said above - and again, I think that lack of
consistency comes from the removal of the Congential Idiot/Vacuous
Bint brand of humour that she so often used to employ.
I think what I can't understand is this - when Cordy started taking
herself so utterly seriously. Well, okay, I know when. But 'why' is, I
suppose, the question you need to answer in order to divine
consistency. And I can't tell why returning from her holiday with
Groo, or realising that she's fancying Angel, would change her so
utterly and completely.
>> Wesley's a bad bad man,
>
>He did a bad bad thing. :-P
He listened to his bad bad hormones.
>> Connor's little speech actually made me go 'Ooh' a couple of times.
>> Especially with the open acknowledgement of the fact that he'd rather
>> view Angelus as his father than Angel - seems like it's not something
>> he's been saying just to hack his dad off, it's something he's got a
>> belief in.
>
>Still loving the Connor/Angel dynamic over here.
Yes - has been teetering on the edge of 'repetitive' a couple of
times, but they always seem to manage to snatch it back from the edge,
somehow...
>> No explanation of why Angelus could remember what Angel couldn't, bar
>> the idea that Angel was somehow repressing the memory himself.
>
>Yes, that was annoying. Now...do we suspect there may be some kind of
>connection between Angelus and the Beast?
You mean, do I think Angelus was perhaps not quite telling the whole
truth? Damn straight I think that.
Interesting question is, however - does he *know* that he's not
telling the whole truth?
<snip the Angel/us divide>
>The whole situation forces me to admit that _Angel_ has changed, though.
>There's no metaphor here. A bunch of literary allusions, sure, but no
>metaphor. _Angel_ is now a full-on Epic Fantasy.
>
>The shameful thing is, if it stays this good, I'm just not going to care.
Erm.
Okay.
Does it still tell good stories? 'Cause if it tells good stories, I'll
still like it even though I've no idea what you're on about.
>> There may yet be mileage in comparing Cassio to Wesley - especially
>> since they both fall foul of their former leaders' favour.
>
>My knowledge of Shakespeare, Greek myth and indeed most other things you
>might lable 'the classics' is shamefully lacking...
I'll give you a crash course. Your powers are weak.
>> Nice 'Raiders' reference. Not quite as amusingly resonant as 'Wood.
>> Why'd it have to be wood?', but 'traditional phallic sword' was
>> entertaining.
>
>Why is the 'wood' line funny? No, seriously.
I label 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' as one of the above 'classics'.
Suck it up.
Tim
who has already had to explain about the 'wood' line to Niall once...
Niall Harrison
> 05 Feb 2003 22:53:36 GMT. I'm in alt.buffy.europe. Niall Harrison
> <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> is twanging, all Hoob-like, at me. I calmly
> say:
>>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - pikelet wrote:
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>>> 'Soulless'.
>>>
>>> Ooer.
>>
>>I was on edge the whole time, which isn't bad going considering the whole
>>'locked in a cage' factor.
>
> True - there was a large 'how's he going to get at them next' factor
> to it. Despite his physical inability to act, anyway. And the scene
> with Fred getting grabbed nicely underlines how opportunistic Angelus
> can be.
It was the way he was acting like they were the ones trapped. Didn't need
to be actually pointed out in dialogue, but there you go.
>>> Watched it, then watched it again.
>>
>>Only had time to watch it once.
>
> Sucks to be you.
Pretty much.
[Cordy]
>>> I'm not sure what's been going on with her this season, and I'm no
>>> closer to knowing it from here, either.
>>
>>Much as it pains me to admit it, she's the weak point of the show right
>>now. Not because I've started hating the character or anything, but
>>because there's no consistency to her actions. There's no real sense of
>>why she's doing anything she's doing (the above notwithstanding...).
>
> See what I've just said above - and again, I think that lack of
> consistency comes from the removal of the Congential Idiot/Vacuous
> Bint brand of humour that she so often used to employ.
Thing is, I really don't miss that.
> I think what I can't understand is this - when Cordy started taking
> herself so utterly seriously. Well, okay, I know when. But 'why' is, I
> suppose, the question you need to answer in order to divine
> consistency. And I can't tell why returning from her holiday with
> Groo, or realising that she's fancying Angel, would change her so
> utterly and completely.
She did return to find that Connor had been taken to a hell dimension.
That was pretty sobering.
I don't see the big lack of balance that you do, though. I saw plenty of
older-style Cordy in the past few episodes, although quotes are escaping
me. For me, I think it comes back to motivation, and 'Tomorrow'. I don't
understand why she would herself believe she's a higher being; I don't
understand what happened whilst she was a higher being; and whilst
academically I understand what she's done since then, I don't quite buy
the transitions, and I think that's because there's this gap in my
knowledge of the character.
Then again, as a non-character man, it doesn't bother me all that much. :)
>>> Wesley's a bad bad man,
>>
>>He did a bad bad thing. :-P
>
> He listened to his bad bad hormones.
And did a bad bad thing. Badda-bing badda-boom.
>>> No explanation of why Angelus could remember what Angel couldn't, bar
>>> the idea that Angel was somehow repressing the memory himself.
>>
>>Yes, that was annoying. Now...do we suspect there may be some kind of
>>connection between Angelus and the Beast?
>
> You mean, do I think Angelus was perhaps not quite telling the whole
> truth? Damn straight I think that.
Hmm. For some reason, I bought it. Don't know why, though.
> Interesting question is, however - does he *know* that he's not
> telling the whole truth?
Ah...possibly.
>>The whole situation forces me to admit that _Angel_ has changed, though.
>>There's no metaphor here. A bunch of literary allusions, sure, but no
>>metaphor. _Angel_ is now a full-on Epic Fantasy.
>>
>>The shameful thing is, if it stays this good, I'm just not going to care.
>
> Erm.
>
> Okay.
>
> Does it still tell good stories? 'Cause if it tells good stories, I'll
> still like it even though I've no idea what you're on about.
Well, you know how _Buffy_ S6 became painfully literal and sucked? _Angel_
is also becoming literal. It's just not sucking. 'cause like you say,
still with the good stories.
>>> There may yet be mileage in comparing Cassio to Wesley - especially
>>> since they both fall foul of their former leaders' favour.
>>
>>My knowledge of Shakespeare, Greek myth and indeed most other things you
>>might lable 'the classics' is shamefully lacking...
>
> I'll give you a crash course. Your powers are weak.
That'd be good. But when I'm less tired.
Niall
--
Zzzzzzz.
Linda
"Niall Harrison" <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:10444856...@urchin.earth.li...
> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - pikelet wrote:
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> > time with Cordy - maybe he's not so smart after all.
>
> [insert comment from Terry or Stephen here]
>
I don't think either of them reads abe. But, yeah, they'd have something to say.
--
Best Regards,
Linda
Mmmmmm...Angel
ObdewllaX
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> Nice 'Raiders' reference. Not quite as amusingly resonant as 'Wood.
> Why'd it have to be wood?', but 'traditional phallic sword' was
> entertaining.
The biggest reference of all was Silence of the Lambs / Manhunter - I
thought.
Psychopathic, whilst intelligent & devious killer locked in an empty
cage in a basement holding the key to a problem. Cordy as Starling -
the 'innocent' who can get the info out of the madman (he refers to her
as a lamb at one point). The opportunistic escape attempt at
'dinner-time'. The messing with people's heads and feeling the guy in
the cage is the one in control. Even the way the conversations were
filmed so close to the bars that they seemed to disappear altogether was
straight from Manhunter.
>
> Angelus may have a thing for nuns, but Angel apparently spends his
> night spanking the bishop whilst listening to Fred.
>
Miggs, anyone?
>
> Angelus seems awfully keen to spill the beans for a chance to spend
> time with Cordy - maybe he's not so smart after all.
>
All Lecter/Lektor wanted was to talk with Starling and have a window
with a view.
>
>
It was great to have Angelus captive so we have a whole episode of his
character, rather than to just have him unleashed straight away (he IS
going to get out, somehow, isn't he).
JD
ObdewllaX
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> Nice 'Raiders' reference. Not quite as amusingly resonant as 'Wood.
> Why'd it have to be wood?', but 'traditional phallic sword' was
> entertaining.
The biggest reference of all was Silence of the Lambs / Manhunter - I
thought.
Psychopathic, but intelligent & devious killer locked in an empty
cage in a basement holding the key to a problem. Cordy as Starling -
the 'innocent' who can get the info out of the madman (he refers to her
as a lamb at one point). The opportunistic escape attempt at
'dinner-time'. The messing with people's heads and feeling the guy in
the cage is the one in control. Even the way the conversations were
filmed so close to the bars that they seemed to disappear altogether was
straight from Manhunter.
>
> Angelus may have a thing for nuns, but Angel apparently spends his
> night spanking the bishop whilst listening to Fred.
>
Miggs, anyone?
>
> Angelus seems awfully keen to spill the beans for a chance to spend
> time with Cordy - maybe he's not so smart after all.
>
All Lecter/Lektor wanted was to talk with Starling and have a window
Iain Clark
<use...@tags2k.co.uk> wrote:
>"pikelet" <timothy...@hertford.ox.ac.uk.issmenotwithspammylips> wrote in
>message news:t2114v4sq1nfsnb5h...@4ax.com...
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>> 'Soulless'.
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>> Ooer.
>
>No leather "pants", either.
>
It would have strained credulity slightly if they'd fetched him a
sexier pair of pants :-)
>> Angelus may have a thing for nuns, but Angel apparently spends his
>> night spanking the bishop whilst listening to Fred.
>
>I'm taking issue with this - it's so not Angel, but it so *is* Angelus to
>say something like that... I'm going with it being a lie to humiliate Angel
>when the soul is put back (cos let's face it, it will be).
>
And of course a lie to humiliate Fred. And Gunn.
>> Cordy's being... weird. I preferred her at the start of season three -
>> there, at least, she had mind-numbing and borderline fatal vision
>> pains to contend with to make her so humourless and dry. I'm not sure
>> what's been going on with her this season, and I'm no closer to
>> knowing it from here, either.
>
She's taking the initiative. She recognises that saving the world
outweighs all other concerns, and she's prepared to sacrifice herself
to achieve it - but only on very specific terms. Unless the world is
saved she doesn't have to pay up.
>She is strange. And the rest of the gang let her go down there alone? And
>switch the camera off?
>
I'm not sure why they allowed that (unless she only cut the sound?).
>> Angelus seems awfully keen to spill the beans for a chance to spend
>> time with Cordy - maybe he's not so smart after all.
>
>Yeah, but it helps to get him annoyed. Plus, if they can't find his soul,
>they'll have to deal with a pissed off Angelus instead of the jokey one we
>had. I liked the jokey one, by the way - mostly snappy dialogue and same
>classic lines. "...you ate babies!".
>
It was tough at times to have Angelus live up to his billing as the
most evil vampire in history. They just about managed it - mainly by
having his mind games be a lot closer to the bone than I expected, but
the Hannibal Lecter routine would have worn thin very soon. I'm glad,
therefore that things appear to be moving forward.
>> Wesley's a bad bad man, and a slave to his lust. Fighting over a girl,
>> indeed.
>
>I didn't like this for one reason only - Wes has already proved that he's
>rock 'ard - he can kick Gunn's ass any day.
>
Gunn's not such a wimp himself. I'm not prepared to call it a flaw
that in a brief scuffle neither one emerges with the upper hand.
>> No explanation of why Angelus could remember what Angel couldn't, bar
>> the idea that Angel was somehow repressing the memory himself.
>
>This is one of the things that I don't think we can fanwank the writers out
>of. They wanted to bring back Angelus, they've done it nicely with a few
>flaws, I reckon we have to just ignore the flaws.
>
Give them a chance. They keep referencing this being a mystery. I'm
betting that (if Angelus is telling the truth) it has something to do
with what happened after he passed out, which in itself is linked to
what's happening in LA right now.
Iain
--
"You have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone."
Iain Clark
wrote:
>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - pikelet wrote:
>
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>> 'Soulless'.
>The whole situation forces me to admit that _Angel_ has changed, though.
>There's no metaphor here. A bunch of literary allusions, sure, but no
>metaphor. _Angel_ is now a full-on Epic Fantasy.
>
>The shameful thing is, if it stays this good, I'm just not going to care.
Huh! This from a man whose complaint about OMWF is that it's merely
an entertaining character episode, which lacks thematic depth.
Iain
(Don't worry, I *can* let go of these things. Eventually. <g>)
--
"If you should die before me
Ask if you could bring a friend."
Niall Harrison
> On 05 Feb 2003 22:53:36 GMT, Niall Harrison <s...@tirian.magd.ox.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>>Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - pikelet wrote:
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>>> 'Soulless'.
>>The whole situation forces me to admit that _Angel_ has changed, though.
>>There's no metaphor here. A bunch of literary allusions, sure, but no
>>metaphor. _Angel_ is now a full-on Epic Fantasy.
>>
>>The shameful thing is, if it stays this good, I'm just not going to care.
>
> Huh! This from a man whose complaint about OMWF is that it's merely
> an entertaining character episode, which lacks thematic depth.
That's why I said 'shameful'. It means I'm operating a double-standard.
(All: But we knew that anyway!)
Niall
--
When memes collide.
Gavin Kinsey
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> 'Soulless'.
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> Ooer.
Yep :-)
> Angelus seems awfully keen to spill the beans for a chance to spend
> time with Cordy - maybe he's not so smart after all.
Of course he wasn't, he gave them no useful information and in return there
was a remote possibilty of getting Cordy into a hostage situation.
> Wesley's a bad bad man, and a slave to his lust. Fighting over a girl,
> indeed.
Was it only me that thought this was a complete setup on Wes's part? That
this is all part of his plan somehow? I don't believe that the man Wes has
become would lose control so thoroughly in a situation like this.
> I like this. His soul was obviously going to be missing/dropped from
> the safe. I'm interested now - very much. Who's got the soul? Why?
The obvious conclusion is that Wes has it. My best guess on his plan is
for his and Gunn's conflict to somehow allow Angelus to get free. Then
they will covertly follow him to the Beast and learn the REAL story, not
that cock-and-bull with the witches, then re-insert soul and stop the Beast
in the nick of time.
I'm usually wrong about these things though, which is what I like about the
show, I can't predict it :-).
--
"Stupid" is a boundless concept.
Gavin Kinsey (Replace spam with gavin to mail me)
Ian Shuttleworth
timothy...@hertford.ox.ac.uk.issmenotwithspammylips (pikelet) wrote:
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> Angelus may be 'smart', but he can't remember the name of 'Oedipus
> Rex', and seems to think that Desdemona doesn't love Othello.
Of course the first is a deliberate tease by Angelus: there's no sign
whatever that he can't remember, he just doesn't say it outright.
> as to the second, I don't think it's a mistake that he mentions
> Desdemona not being in love with Othello.
No, he says Desdemona doesn't love "the other guy", meaning Cassio - the
point being that Othello's jealousy isn't justified, the implication being
that Gunn's *is*. Which gets borne out to an extent with the brief
subsequent snoggage.
> Angelus here is playing Iago - tempting Gunn/Othello into believing the
> worst.
I don't think that's entirely true. After all, the point about Iago was
that, right to the final scene, he was seen by those around him as
trustworthy - the phrase " *honest* Iago" chimes out through the play.
Nobody believes that of Angelus for a moment; his seeds of doubt are much
more, as has been noted, Lecterish.
But what with the soul-bottle disappearing (am I the only one who keeps
thinking of the Steve Martin movie "All Of Me" here?), Manny's murder and
the "among you" remarks, the suggestions are strong that there's a real,
proper two-faced Iago somewhere in the outfit...
Anybody else notice the couple of flashes of granite on Cordy's face in
this ep before she moved into concerned mode? Of course, it may be poor
editing failing to cut out Charisma's baby-to-be kicking...
--
Ian S.
pikelet
alt.buffy.europe. shut...@cix.co.uk (Ian Shuttleworth) is twanging,
all Hoob-like, at me. I calmly say:
>In article <t2114v4sq1nfsnb5h...@4ax.com>,
>timothy...@hertford.ox.ac.uk.issmenotwithspammylips (pikelet) wrote:
>
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>> as to the second, I don't think it's a mistake that he mentions
>> Desdemona not being in love with Othello.
>
>No, he says Desdemona doesn't love "the other guy", meaning Cassio - the
>point being that Othello's jealousy isn't justified, the implication being
>that Gunn's *is*. Which gets borne out to an extent with the brief
>subsequent snoggage.
You're right, and on rewatch I think that's something I think I should
have spotted first time. Oops :)
>> Angelus here is playing Iago - tempting Gunn/Othello into believing the
>> worst.
>
>I don't think that's entirely true. After all, the point about Iago was
>that, right to the final scene, he was seen by those around him as
>trustworthy - the phrase " *honest* Iago" chimes out through the play.
>Nobody believes that of Angelus for a moment; his seeds of doubt are much
>more, as has been noted, Lecterish.
Ah, but yes they do see a kind of (rather perverse) honesty. Angelus
is said to make 'lies with truth', or words to that effect. See,
everything he says is true - to the people who hear it. Iago lies
outright, but it doesn't matter because everything he says is true -
to the people who hear it. In both situations, you've got a scenario
of subjective truth being determined by what the person hearing it
*wants* to believe.
Lecter and Iago aren't really all that far apart, anyway. The only
thing that makes Angelus more Lecter than Iago is that he's doing this
*because he can*, not necessarily because it suits some purpose of
his.
Of course, that supposes his purpose isn't to divide and conquer, mind
you. In which case, he's more Iago.
Oh, I give up.
Tim.
Shuggie
(Ian Shuttleworth) wrote:
>In article <t2114v4sq1nfsnb5h...@4ax.com>,
>timothy...@hertford.ox.ac.uk.issmenotwithspammylips (pikelet) wrote:
>
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>But what with the soul-bottle disappearing (am I the only one who keeps
>thinking of the Steve Martin movie "All Of Me" here?),
Oh yeah ;)
>Manny's murder and
>the "among you" remarks, the suggestions are strong that there's a real,
>proper two-faced Iago somewhere in the outfit...
>
Yep
>Anybody else notice the couple of flashes of granite on Cordy's face in
>this ep before she moved into concerned mode? Of course, it may be poor
>editing failing to cut out Charisma's baby-to-be kicking...
I always felt there's something up with Cordy since she got back.
They've never really explained what happened with her, or her amnesia.
Of course that could just be because they wanted to back-pedal the
Higher Being storyline as quickly as possible.
--
Shug
It's a big rock. I can't wait to tell my friends. They don't have a
rock this big.