Angel 4x22 - spoilers
Andrew Cameron
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I am confused. I enjoyed watching it, but I'm confused. In order to
convince Angel to take the deal at W&H, Connor has to get a life with a
proper family and is not Angel's son, right? So, they've closed up Angel
incase it doesn't get renewed, but where would this whole new direction be
if it does? I don't get it... anyone care to speculate on how a season will
be made when they have fantastic resources and things should be made
piss-easy for them?
--
Andrew Cameron
"Got my hand on my heart, I know no better location..."
Saskia
Um, that's one way of putting it. What I saw was Angel wanting something
good for Connor and there was no way he was going to arrange that by
himself. He accepted W&H's help, and in exchange (or maybe it was a
condition, whatever) Angel took the deal.
> So, they've closed up Angel
> incase it doesn't get renewed, but where would this whole new direction be
> if it does? I don't get it... anyone care to speculate on how a season will
> be made when they have fantastic resources and things should be made
> piss-easy for them?
I really really *really* can't think about that right now. I want to have
a rewatchage and good long think about this season before I'll start
thinking about the next one. And god please all hope and pray there will
be a next one....
--
Saskia
I haven't been the same since that house fell on my sister.
Mattia Valente
Quite. That was a supremely strange finale.
> I enjoyed watching it, but I'm confused. In order to
> convince Angel to take the deal at W&H, Connor has to get a life with a
> proper family and is not Angel's son, right?
I think that's what clinched it, yes. And dammit, I may be a sappy yabo
for it, but that was a moving scene there at the end. Am I the only one
going 'Nooooo!' on the inside? No more VK. *sniff* CURSES!
Bit of an easy way out, though, inventing him a new life, a new place.
Is he normally human now? No super powers? Just...because he deserves
that? 'cause he was in a nice little existential crisis cum depression,
all nihilistic and adolescent, just with more bombs? Harsh decision...
> So, they've closed up Angel incase it doesn't get renewed,
Only very sort of. They were more closed off at the end of last year,
almost. This would make a rather deeply unsatisfying close to the
series, so I'm not even going to think about that option.
> but where would this whole new direction be if it does?
Well, quite. it's odd. I mean, ok, Wes hath now th'knowledge, and lots
of it. Fred has geeky science lab (and who was that actor that played
her guide? I can't twig where I've seen him before). Gunn has....deep
meaningful future vision and a big white office? HigerBeing!Gunn? And
Angel can sunbathe from the safety of his little ole tower. And Lorne?
Can mooch around singing.
> I don't get it... anyone care to speculate on how a season will
> be made when they have fantastic resources and things should be made
> piss-easy for them?
They'll find a way to complex it up, I'd think. But how, exactly? And I
mean I'm dead curious as to what they want to be doing, but at the same
time I'm supremely worried. Part of what I love about the show is the
atmosphere, the darkness, all that kind of thing. And W&H == lame set
compared to the genius of the Hyperion, I'm sorry. A Champion with
resources? And Lawyers? I mean, uh, yay for Angel, but....eh?
In part, this sorta hinges on how Buffy ends (and look, doodad to bring
her now, and a file on the Sunnydale Happenings. Yay for Angel not
caring too much about the Buffy situation, caring more about Connor.) if
it goes all 'Fray' on our asses. We'll have to wait and see. I predict
crossover.
Honestly, though, I'm of two minds about this all. Had some really nice
stuff, probably more than I picked up on originally, but it was very
odd. Atmospheric, funny, quirky..but odd. I'm a bit at a loss as to what
to do with this, to be honest.
Oh, and I'm a tad dissapointed. Tim didn't kill anyone. Not even Cordy.
Bah, humbug.
Mattia
Mattia Valente
>>incase it doesn't get renewed, but where would this whole new direction be
>>if it does? I don't get it... anyone care to speculate on how a season will
>>be made when they have fantastic resources and things should be made
>>piss-easy for them?
>
> I really really *really* can't think about that right now. I want to have
> a rewatchage and good long think about this season before I'll start
> thinking about the next one. And god please all hope and pray there will
> be a next one....
Indeed. Just a couple more days (5, I think. Monday = linup announce for
the WB) until we know, but damn that was a strange, strange ending. I
want a next season, if only for the reason it'll probably make a lot of
this seem all the cooler.
I need sleep. My brain's not really assimilating facts at the mo.
Mattia
Andrew Cameron
news:b9bvi4$hh0vs$1...@ID-74630.news.dfncis.de...
Indeed. Sue, who had read spoilers, said that it would be a "taster of
season five". Now she's not so sure it was :-)
> > I enjoyed watching it, but I'm confused. In order to
> > convince Angel to take the deal at W&H, Connor has to get a life with a
> > proper family and is not Angel's son, right?
>
> I think that's what clinched it, yes. And dammit, I may be a sappy yabo
> for it, but that was a moving scene there at the end. Am I the only one
> going 'Nooooo!' on the inside? No more VK. *sniff* CURSES!
Is that what it means? Maybe in season five, Angel will want Connor back
and there will be more angst... uh... maybe not.
> Bit of an easy way out, though, inventing him a new life, a new place.
Yes, but it's huge, plot-wise.
> Is he normally human now? No super powers?
I was wondering... I guess not - he's not the son of two vampires.
> > So, they've closed up Angel incase it doesn't get renewed,
>
> Only very sort of. They were more closed off at the end of last year,
> almost. This would make a rather deeply unsatisfying close to the
> series, so I'm not even going to think about that option.
I think it would be okay, but I'd rather have another season or a million
(going by how good this season has been).
> > I don't get it... anyone care to speculate on how a season will
> > be made when they have fantastic resources and things should be made
> > piss-easy for them?
>
> They'll find a way to complex it up, I'd think. But how, exactly?
'Swhat I'm saying.
> And I
> mean I'm dead curious as to what they want to be doing, but at the same
> time I'm supremely worried. Part of what I love about the show is the
> atmosphere, the darkness, all that kind of thing. And W&H == lame set
> compared to the genius of the Hyperion, I'm sorry. A Champion with
> resources? And Lawyers? I mean, uh, yay for Angel, but....eh?
Again with the agreeing.
> In part, this sorta hinges on how Buffy ends (and look, doodad to bring
> her now, and a file on the Sunnydale Happenings. Yay for Angel not
> caring too much about the Buffy situation, caring more about Connor.) if
> it goes all 'Fray' on our asses. We'll have to wait and see. I predict
> crossover.
Me too - maybe that will clear up the Angel story a bit more when they
arrive in Sunnydale with the thing that's really important to the battle.
David Boreanaz vs Nathan Fillion. Oh baby.
> Honestly, though, I'm of two minds about this all. Had some really nice
> stuff, probably more than I picked up on originally, but it was very
> odd. Atmospheric, funny, quirky..but odd. I'm a bit at a loss as to what
> to do with this, to be honest.
Yet again I agree and have nothing to add. :-/
> Oh, and I'm a tad dissapointed. Tim didn't kill anyone. Not even Cordy.
Hehehe.
> Bah, humbug.
Butterscotch for me, please.
Aileen
Indeed. I like him so much more since EoD. But if they bring him in next
year in a crappy way then i think i'll be more put out.
>
> Bit of an easy way out, though, inventing him a new life, a new place.
> Is he normally human now? No super powers? Just...because he deserves
> that? 'cause he was in a nice little existential crisis cum depression,
> all nihilistic and adolescent, just with more bombs? Harsh decision...
>
> > So, they've closed up Angel incase it doesn't get renewed,
>
> Only very sort of. They were more closed off at the end of last year,
> almost. This would make a rather deeply unsatisfying close to the
> series, so I'm not even going to think about that option.
>
> > but where would this whole new direction be if it does?
>
> Well, quite. it's odd. I mean, ok, Wes hath now th'knowledge, and lots
> of it. Fred has geeky science lab (and who was that actor that played
> her guide? I can't twig where I've seen him before). Gunn has....deep
> meaningful future vision and a big white office? HigerBeing!Gunn? And
> Angel can sunbathe from the safety of his little ole tower. And Lorne?
> Can mooch around singing.
Geek boy is Holden from CwDP
>
> > I don't get it... anyone care to speculate on how a season will
>
>> be made when they have fantastic resources and things should be made
>> piss-easy for them?
>
>
> They'll find a way to complex it up, I'd think. But how, exactly? And I
> mean I'm dead curious as to what they want to be doing, but at the same
> time I'm supremely worried. Part of what I love about the show is the
> atmosphere, the darkness, all that kind of thing. And W&H == lame set
> compared to the genius of the Hyperion, I'm sorry. A Champion with
> resources? And Lawyers? I mean, uh, yay for Angel, but....eh?
>
> In part, this sorta hinges on how Buffy ends (and look, doodad to bring
> her now, and a file on the Sunnydale Happenings. Yay for Angel not
> caring too much about the Buffy situation, caring more about Connor.) if
> it goes all 'Fray' on our asses. We'll have to wait and see. I predict
> crossover.
>
> Honestly, though, I'm of two minds about this all. Had some really nice
> stuff, probably more than I picked up on originally, but it was very
> odd. Atmospheric, funny, quirky..but odd. I'm a bit at a loss as to what
> to do with this, to be honest.
>
> Oh, and I'm a tad dissapointed. Tim didn't kill anyone. Not even Cordy.
>
> Bah, humbug.
>
Yeah, Cordy ain't going anywhere. poo.
Overall, really not sure how i feel. I mean i didn't immediately hate
it, so improvement on last season's finale. But... yeah. I resort to
izzarness cos i just don't know.
Dave Emberton
news:b9bvi4$hh0vs$1...@ID-74630.news.dfncis.de...
>
> > I enjoyed watching it, but I'm confused. In order to
> > convince Angel to take the deal at W&H, Connor has to get a life with a
> > proper family and is not Angel's son, right?
>
> I think that's what clinched it, yes. And dammit, I may be a sappy yabo
> for it, but that was a moving scene there at the end. Am I the only one
> going 'Nooooo!' on the inside? No more VK. *sniff* CURSES!
Was that sarcasm? I can't tell. Personally I was hoping he'd blow himself up
;-)
> > but where would this whole new direction be if it does?
>
> Well, quite. it's odd. I mean, ok, Wes hath now th'knowledge, and lots
> of it. Fred has geeky science lab (and who was that actor that played
> her guide? I can't twig where I've seen him before). Gunn has....deep
> meaningful future vision and a big white office? HigerBeing!Gunn? And
> Angel can sunbathe from the safety of his little ole tower. And Lorne?
> Can mooch around singing.
>
> > I don't get it... anyone care to speculate on how a season will
> > be made when they have fantastic resources and things should be made
> > piss-easy for them?
>
> They'll find a way to complex it up, I'd think. But how, exactly? And I
> mean I'm dead curious as to what they want to be doing, but at the same
> time I'm supremely worried. Part of what I love about the show is the
> atmosphere, the darkness, all that kind of thing. And W&H == lame set
> compared to the genius of the Hyperion, I'm sorry. A Champion with
> resources? And Lawyers? I mean, uh, yay for Angel, but....eh?
It's unfortunate, but assuming we get an S5, it's bound to start with them
somehow waking up, or just have a crisis on conscience, either way the
situation cannot continue beacuse I really can't see how it can work either.
> In part, this sorta hinges on how Buffy ends (and look, doodad to bring
> her now, and a file on the Sunnydale Happenings. Yay for Angel not
> caring too much about the Buffy situation, caring more about Connor.) if
> it goes all 'Fray' on our asses. We'll have to wait and see. I predict
> crossover.
I think what we just had was final confirmation of Angel being in the Buffy
finale.
>
> Honestly, though, I'm of two minds about this all. Had some really nice
> stuff, probably more than I picked up on originally, but it was very
> odd. Atmospheric, funny, quirky..but odd. I'm a bit at a loss as to what
> to do with this, to be honest.
Yes, wierd. I liked a lot of it, and I really liked the end. But Connor
going from slightly mopey teenager to suicide bomber seems a tad unlikely,
and that whole scene just didn't work for me. Still plus points for Lilah.
> Oh, and I'm a tad dissapointed. Tim didn't kill anyone. Not even Cordy.
Well he sort of killed Connor. Sort of.
So what was the Puma about? I'm confused.
Dave
Dan Milburn
Yes. Thematically, it kinda worked, it had some good humour, good
character moments, but at the same time it left me a bit cold..
> > I enjoyed watching it, but I'm confused. In order to
>> convince Angel to take the deal at W&H, Connor has to get a life with a
>> proper family and is not Angel's son, right?
>
> I think that's what clinched it, yes. And dammit, I may be a sappy yabo
> for it, but that was a moving scene there at the end. Am I the only one
> going 'Nooooo!' on the inside? No more VK. *sniff* CURSES!
Well, I don't think we can be sure at this point.
> Bit of an easy way out, though, inventing him a new life, a new place.
The whole episode was apparently easy ways out, though. There has to be
more to it. Whether that includes Connor or not, I really don't know,
but.. damn.
> > So, they've closed up Angel incase it doesn't get renewed,
>
> Only very sort of. They were more closed off at the end of last year,
> almost. This would make a rather deeply unsatisfying close to the
> series, so I'm not even going to think about that option.
Oh, it wouldn't be nearly as dissatisfying as last year. They've finished
the story, or at least the parts that involve Connor.
<snip>
> Oh, and I'm a tad dissapointed. Tim didn't kill anyone. Not even Cordy.
And left it open for Charisma to return whenever she feels like it.. Gah.
Dan
Gunnar Harboe
He probably still is, biologically and metaphysically. Just not
officially.
> So, they've closed up Angel
>incase it doesn't get renewed, but where would this whole new direction be
>if it does? I don't get it... anyone care to speculate on how a season will
>be made when they have fantastic resources and things should be made
>piss-easy for them?
I thought it had already been renewed. Well, OK...
I read something somewhere about the "new direction" for S5. Basically,
it looks like this episode was all backdoor pilot for The New Angel
Show.
Lots of people say they can't see how it could work. Personally, I think
it sounds like a great idea, and the logical conclusion to the
increasingly intimate relationship between AI and W&H. (How many times
has Angel got out of a tough spot by calling on Lilah - or Lindsey or
Gavin - for info?)
Oh, and necro-something glass. Neat. But won't he be afraid that someone
will push his chair through the window and he'll fall to his fiery
death?
So I guess I'll give it a chance for another year (assuming the network
does), if only to see if any characters from 'Buffy' make the jump.
Tafka
"Andrew Cameron" <use...@tags2k.co.uk>. alt.buffy.europe. Wed, 7 May 2003
21:23:28 +0100:
Huh? Wha?
Gunn & Panther?
Wes and...? And knowledge? The effect would've been lost if Wes had just
been shown the files, but surely easier?
Angel? S5? Human? Where's this going to come from then?
Why couldn't ONE of Connor and Cordelia just die?
I can, through just one of Connor's lines - that's all, see vaguely why he
might go full-on crazy but,um, no. Not quite.
Nice touch that AI were all silent as the credits at the beginning rolled,
though - Gunn spoke just as Written & Directed by Tim Minear faded...
nifty :)
Fred + Big Gun = Mmmmmmmmmmmmm :D
[NOT Big "Gunn". Oh no. That's pikelet territory]
However - on the whole I am very, _very_ confused on this.
-Tafka-
Who shot me,
But, your punks didn't finish
Now, you 'bout to feel the wrath of a menace
Tafka
08 May 2003 03:31:33 +0100:
Ooh, as taken from the play-by-play on the wildfeed;
[quote]
Angel says his life is just beginning. He tries to apologize. Connor
doesn't want to hear it, it doesn't change anything. Angel tells him he
loves him. Connor says it's a lie, it's always a lie, even his mother
didn't love him. Angel tells him he's wrong, Darla sacrificed herself for
him. Connor believes Angel loved him, but not enough because he let Holtz
get him. He wonders where Cordy is now, she said she loved him. He says
Jasmine wasn't a lie, she knew people would turn against her if they saw
the truth. She wanted to give them everything.
Angel wants to take back the mistakes, help Connor start over. Connor says
he can't. Angel tells him they can change things. Connor says death is the
only thing that changes things, everything else is a lie, he can't be
saved by a lie.
[/quote]
Ok - so now I see why Angel had to "kill" Connor (even Connor could see
it), but I'm still not happy that he died the way he did.
Angel goes into this knowing what he has to do - kill Connor and sacrifice
the freedom of AI by binding them to W&H as he makes an executive
decision. The freedom and "the choice" which Angel told Jasmine she was
taking away from everyone in the first place. Go Team!Angel!Power, I
guess... So it seems that from the end everyone still knows the same
things, bar all memory of Connor. Which in turn would presumably cause big
problems when - say - Wes thinks of how Lilah died (Cordelia, controlled
by 'Jasmine' > Connor) or whatever. If it's left open (no S5) I'll be
peeved, yes.
S5 will be... interesting. Although it's just too weird (and EARLY) to
think about how the likes of Willow & Spike would fit into it all if they
were to recur.
Still - "huh"!
(Most of ata is also all "Huh?". And NO-ONE seems to 'get' the panther...)
-Tafka-
It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear
and doubt over so small a thing. So little a thing.
Tafka
Tafka <tafka...@nospam-spamfree.boltfree.net>. alt.buffy.europe. Thu,
>Still - "huh"!
Ok, now I really need to either sleep or go and rewatch that - my brain is
going to explode if I think/read about it any more!
-Taf-
A black eye heals, but cowardice has an unlimited shelf life.
Major ChrisB
"Mattia Valente" <mae.v...@std.vu.nl> wrote in message
news:b9bvi4$hh0vs$1...@ID-74630.news.dfncis.de...
maybe joss has got a thing about weird season 4 finales....
> > I enjoyed watching it, but I'm confused. In order to
> > convince Angel to take the deal at W&H, Connor has to get a life with a
> > proper family and is not Angel's son, right?
>
> I think that's what clinched it, yes. And dammit, I may be a sappy yabo
> for it, but that was a moving scene there at the end. Am I the only one
> going 'Nooooo!' on the inside? No more VK. *sniff* CURSES!
I'm so not a fan of the connor character. He's a pain in the ass and, while
I've not seen season 3 to get to grips with his intro as a character, I was
trying to think of a way he can die in that bomb thing without cordy, angel
and all those innocent dying too....
> Bit of an easy way out, though, inventing him a new life, a new place.
> Is he normally human now? No super powers? Just...because he deserves
> that? 'cause he was in a nice little existential crisis cum depression,
> all nihilistic and adolescent, just with more bombs? Harsh decision...
it worked well though....Angel's given connor the life he should have had
and we don't have to see him in the show no more...
> > So, they've closed up Angel incase it doesn't get renewed,
>
> Only very sort of. They were more closed off at the end of last year,
> almost. This would make a rather deeply unsatisfying close to the
> series, so I'm not even going to think about that option.
>
> > but where would this whole new direction be if it does?
>
> Well, quite. it's odd. I mean, ok, Wes hath now th'knowledge, and lots
> of it. Fred has geeky science lab (and who was that actor that played
> her guide? I can't twig where I've seen him before). Gunn has....deep
> meaningful future vision and a big white office? HigerBeing!Gunn? And
> Angel can sunbathe from the safety of his little ole tower. And Lorne?
> Can mooch around singing.
I can picture a whole CSI with demons style twist to seaosn 5. if they
bring willow, spike and maybe someone else over from Buffy (Dawn most
likely) then they've got 2 teams to work on 2 cases and come together for
the major ones...I can see seaosn 5 being more of a series of 1 off story
lines than it has been before...esspecially with the new pool of writers
they're going to have with the buffy writers coming on board.
How will the writing hierarchy work now?
Espenson was exec producer on buffy and exec story editor and a major
writer. plus she's writen for Angel before
David Fury is an exec producer on buffy, producer on Angel and a major
writer on both.
Drew Greenberg is buffy writer
Doug Petrie has written for both and is co-producer on buffy
David Greenwalt is major writer for angel and producer on both shows
Marti Noxon has writen for both and is exec producer for Buffy
Ben Edlund was firefly, now Angel writer and producer
and Tim Minear was firefly writer, angel writer and co exec producer
plus you've got 15 or so other folk who have written the odd episode.
If they're all on the writing staff next year and production staff for angel
next year how would it work?
> > I don't get it... anyone care to speculate on how a season will
> > be made when they have fantastic resources and things should be made
> > piss-easy for them?
>
> They'll find a way to complex it up, I'd think. But how, exactly? And I
> mean I'm dead curious as to what they want to be doing, but at the same
> time I'm supremely worried. Part of what I love about the show is the
> atmosphere, the darkness, all that kind of thing. And W&H == lame set
> compared to the genius of the Hyperion, I'm sorry. A Champion with
> resources? And Lawyers? I mean, uh, yay for Angel, but....eh?
>
> In part, this sorta hinges on how Buffy ends (and look, doodad to bring
> her now, and a file on the Sunnydale Happenings. Yay for Angel not
> caring too much about the Buffy situation, caring more about Connor.) if
> it goes all 'Fray' on our asses. We'll have to wait and see. I predict
> crossover.
yeah I don't mind the angel going to help buffy thing but I'd rather it
wasnt going to be a case of him arriving and handing her the charm and
suddenly saves the day....I bloody hope not....plus buffy all shacked up
with spike....hows angel gonna handle that one...
> Honestly, though, I'm of two minds about this all. Had some really nice
> stuff, probably more than I picked up on originally, but it was very
> odd. Atmospheric, funny, quirky..but odd. I'm a bit at a loss as to what
> to do with this, to be honest.
I loved it....I thought it was excelent. Lilah seems she might be back for
good as angel's assistant....I'm sure angel will majorly revamp the
place...(excuse the pun)
I'm looking forward to seaosn 5....
> Oh, and I'm a tad dissapointed. Tim didn't kill anyone. Not even Cordy.
well he kind of killed
Major ChrisB
"Tafka" <tafka...@nospam-spamfree.boltfree.net> wrote in message
news:i1gjbvsb7d22hglpp...@4ax.com...
I still recon they'll be 2 major dissapointments for Angel when he goes to
buffy.
1. He'll find buffy and spike shacked up
2. spike'll be the one who gets humanised
Tafka
2003 05:28:40 +0100:
Well I've been "spoiled" (I went and read spoilers because I was close to
giving up on watching any of the last 6 Buffy's before I went away because
they.... sucked, so much. Last two have been good and I knew a little of
what to expect.) so I'm saying nothing at all about the Buffy finale.
-Tafka-
Way outside my area of expertise, I should caution. But hey, who knew
William Shatner could sing?
Okay, bad example.
Andrew Hogg
Wheeeeee! Just watched it during my lunch hour. That was great. The
only annoying this is no dead Cordy. But I guess she won't be a
regular anymore which is just as good. Bye bye to VK, just as we found
out he rocked.
I could watch corporate vampire machinations all season next year.
Major ChrisB
I read a spoiler for the finale too but it really doesn't look like it going
to happen which is a good thing coz it was a sucky idea but I'll not mention
what it was just in case....it was nothing to do with what I've mentioned
above or in here before...in fact the prediction i did make for the finale
was nothing like the spoiler I read....
Shuggie
>esspecially with the new pool of writers
>they're going to have with the buffy writers coming on board.
Except they're not. Listen to the latest Succubus Club - the Buffy
writers are off looking for work.
>How will the writing hierarchy work now?
>Espenson was exec producer on buffy and exec story editor and a major
>writer. plus she's writen for Angel before
Espenson has got a job working for Gilmore Girls/Gilmore Girls spin-off
>David Fury is an exec producer on buffy, producer on Angel and a major
>writer on both.
Not heard what Fury's doing
>Drew Greenberg is buffy writer
Drew was being cagey but looks like he's got a job on Smallville
>Doug Petrie has written for both and is co-producer on buffy
Apart from doing the Fantastic Four screenplay I don't know what Doug's
plans are.
>David Greenwalt is major writer for angel and producer on both shows
Well he was, he's just come back from Miracles. However, if Angel S5
happens looks like he'll be show-runner.
>Marti Noxon has writen for both and is exec producer for Buffy
Marti's got her own show starting.
>Ben Edlund was firefly, now Angel writer and producer
Not heard about Ben.
>and Tim Minear was firefly writer, angel writer and co exec producer
Tim is running a new show called 'Wonder Falls' - cross between The Dead
Zone and Buffy by the sound of it. Although apparently Joss is nagging
him about a joint project.
--
Shug
Save Ferris
Andrew Hogg
>
> Well he was, he's just come back from Miracles. However, if Angel S5
> happens looks like he'll be show-runner.
>
>>Ben Edlund was firefly, now Angel writer and producer
>
> Not heard about Ben.
>
Iain Clark
I don't quite understand the strongly confused reactions to this
episode.
I mean, okay it was a little off-beat, but nothing compared to, say
Restless.
It didn't explain everything, but the things it didn't explain (like
Gunn and the Panther) were clearly flagged as Not Being Explained Yet.
I never felt like it was being wilfully surreal for no reason. There
was a sense of things making sense, just slightly out of sight.
>Wes and...? And knowledge? The effect would've been lost if Wes had just
>been shown the files, but surely easier?
>
The whole thing was more about the mental journey undertaken by the
characters than the destination. They had to work it through for
themselves.
>Angel? S5? Human? Where's this going to come from then?
>
Do we know for sure this is the case? I figure W&H is the paradigm
shift Joss was talking about.
>Why couldn't ONE of Connor and Cordelia just die?
>I can, through just one of Connor's lines - that's all, see vaguely why he
>might go full-on crazy but,um, no. Not quite.
>
Yes, I was a little more unhappy about this, and also about taking
away Connor's choices.
>Nice touch that AI were all silent as the credits at the beginning rolled,
>though - Gunn spoke just as Written & Directed by Tim Minear faded...
>nifty :)
>
Very funny, too :-)
>However - on the whole I am very, _very_ confused on this.
>
Me, I'm in a zen state. I accept that I don't understand, and I await
more coolness with interest. <g>
Iain
--
"You have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone."
Major ChrisB
"Andrew Hogg" <andre...@andrewhoggREMOVETHIS.force9.co.uk> wrote in
message news:20030508210...@news.force9.net...
It would be fantastic if ME could get behind Ben and try another attempt at
getting a tick series off the ground. I seen a couple of episodes of the
origional series and I think the problem was that they tried to make it TOO
much like the cartoon/comic
but I suppose getting a second chance to do the same show is kinda unlikely
Major ChrisB
"Shuggie" <shu...@SPAMMENOTaceypace.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ggblbvs09mk4ksosh...@4ax.com...
whats the succubus club?
Klaus Joynson
I rather enjoyed it myself.
I hadn't really missed Tim Minear this season, until now. That great bit
after the credits which went on for ages. So you're wondering what the
hell can possibly be so good that it caused such a reaction and then we
get it: Wolfram and Heart on a plate. Yep, that was worth the wait.
Loads of great bits.
First off: Lilah. Of course, death is no barrier to guest appearances
(how many has Darla chalked up since she got dusted?) but I was sad when
she was killed because she's such a great character and Romanov really
gives it her all. Even more so here, as she revelled in being dead. Also
great that she wasn't the First, which is what I was expecting at the
end of the last episode. Good that this wasn't about what's happening on
Buffy at all, which is what I expected. Not fussy about crossovers;
Orpheus was great but not entirely because of Willow.
The slow reveal that they've all been tempted by Lilah's offer, starting
with Fred and ending with Lorne already in the Limo. Implausible, yes,
but it made me smile so I liked it.
The tour around Wolfram and Heart had me almost giddy. W&H always
promised more than it really delivered. It worked when it was slightly
off stage and Doing Things. Here, Minear bucks the trend to delicious
effect and we go right around the place, but from a different
perspective. Interesting that the guides are so appropriate,
particularly Wesley's ex-Watcher who's turned to the dark side. Although
what was Holden 'Webs' Webster doing around? :)
And there's also the slight air of menace about it all. These are the
bad guys, and the entire organisation is there to do Bad Things. It's
interesting how easily seduced they all are to the possibilities. Nicely
examining the shades of grey here. Me likey.
Then there's Connor. Hmm. He's cool, no doubt about it, and VK goes off
the rails convincingly. He's like the Angel equivalent of the character
of Faith in Buffy season 3. He does things that seem incomprehensible
but then that's the point. He's a loon. Even then, strapping bombs
(Megatrons, no less) to people seems a little excessive. It seems like
more of an excuse for a neat set piece than anything that's been
properly thought through.
The Angel/Connor fight, of course. I dunno why, but I really noticed
this, unlike a lot of fights on Angel and Buffy. A lot less slo-mo than
we usually get, which may be why it stuck out.
I can't understand the general confusion over Gunn and the panther.
Okay, it was supposed to be a bit ambiguous, but I took it in relation
to Gunn questioning where he 'fitted' in AI, and expecting to be Mr.
Security. Then he gets taken to the 'top floor' essentially, and the
replacement for the 'boss'. Strong, black and very dangerous, so to
speak. (Is that the panther that we saw the girl patting in the drawing
way back in, er, um, that episode with Manny?). So the panther is the
new boss. The implication is there. They're making Gunn the boss,
releasing the potential that's always been there. A boss on a different
plane, I suppose. Angel can swan around in his office. Gunn's on a whole
'nother level. There might not be another series, but I think the
intention is to make Gunn realise he can be a bit more above things,
like he used to be with his crew.
Cool ending, with Connor being the happy little boy he always wanted. I
can see possibilities if he finds out what he was and wants that back,
but it's still a neat - and heartbreaking - way to take him out of the
loop. Was anyone else thinking that Minear was trying to buck his own
trend here by fooling us into thinking he'd killed Connor?
It'll be a crime if Angel doesn't get renewed, and the longer the wait
the more pessimistic I am. I can see oodles of possibilities for this
new set up, with AI getting their job done with great efficiency, and
slowly selling their souls in the process. How they deal with that will
be cool, and lets hope Lilah sticks around as well.
Klaus
Niall Harrison
> I hadn't really missed Tim Minear this season, until now.
I had, but I hadn't realised how much.
> First off: Lilah. Of course, death is no barrier to guest appearances
> (how many has Darla chalked up since she got dusted?)
Well, that depends. Dusted the first time, or dusted the second time? :)
> Good that this wasn't about what's happening on Buffy at all,
Amen.
> The slow reveal that they've all been tempted by Lilah's offer, starting
> with Fred and ending with Lorne already in the Limo. Implausible, yes,
> but it made me smile so I liked it.
I actually didn't find it implausible; heck, I'd have gone!
> Although what was Holden 'Webs' Webster doing around? :)
Who cares? He was great this time around as well. :)
> And there's also the slight air of menace about it all. These are the
> bad guys, and the entire organisation is there to do Bad Things. It's
> interesting how easily seduced they all are to the possibilities. Nicely
> examining the shades of grey here. Me likey.
Also, the 'growing up' theme (LILAH: Angel investigations, all growed up).
The idea that now Angel is a parent, he can't *afford* to stand by his
moral principles all the time. He has to compromise. And the beautiful
symmetry with 'Deep Down', and the irony compared with the Jasmine arc...
I have this urge to go away and wathc all 22 episodes again, right now. :)
> Then there's Connor. Hmm. He's cool, no doubt about it, and VK goes off
> the rails convincingly. He's like the Angel equivalent of the character
> of Faith in Buffy season 3. He does things that seem incomprehensible
> but then that's the point. He's a loon. Even then, strapping bombs
> (Megatrons, no less) to people seems a little excessive. It seems like
> more of an excuse for a neat set piece than anything that's been
> properly thought through.
It was shocking, but then that was the point. It's been clear since
'Inside Out' that Connor is genuinely unhinged, and losing Jasmine was
just the event that pushed him over the edge.
I'm so, so torn about the ending. On the one hand, it's possibly Angel's
most noble hour. On the other hand, I really, really want VK back next
season. :)
> I can't understand the general confusion over Gunn and the panther.
> Okay, it was supposed to be a bit ambiguous, but I took it in relation
> to Gunn questioning where he 'fitted' in AI, and expecting to be Mr.
> Security. Then he gets taken to the 'top floor' essentially, and the
> replacement for the 'boss'. Strong, black and very dangerous, so to
> speak. (Is that the panther that we saw the girl patting in the drawing
> way back in, er, um, that episode with Manny?).
Oh! *Good* catch. I think you may be right.
> Cool ending, with Connor being the happy little boy he always wanted. I
> can see possibilities if he finds out what he was and wants that back,
> but it's still a neat - and heartbreaking - way to take him out of the
> loop. Was anyone else thinking that Minear was trying to buck his own
> trend here by fooling us into thinking he'd killed Connor?
Well, metaphorically Angel *did* kill Connor. 'The father will kill the
son', anyone?
23:20 <malenfant> If we don't get S5, there will be casualties.
23:20 <Hoggy> Agreed
23:21 <Hoggy> We send Taf a The Beast costume and he stomps round WB
killing everything. Good plan?
23:22 <malenfant> yes.
Niall
--
Cast me adrift on a dream.
Niall Harrison
> I hadn't really missed Tim Minear this season, until now.
I had, but I hadn't realised how much.
> First off: Lilah. Of course, death is no barrier to guest appearances
> (how many has Darla chalked up since she got dusted?)
Well, that depends. Dusted the first time, or dusted the second time? :)
> Good that this wasn't about what's happening on Buffy at all,
Amen.
> The slow reveal that they've all been tempted by Lilah's offer, starting
> with Fred and ending with Lorne already in the Limo. Implausible, yes,
> but it made me smile so I liked it.
I actually didn't find it implausible; heck, I'd have gone!
> Although what was Holden 'Webs' Webster doing around? :)
Who cares? He was great this time around as well. :)
> And there's also the slight air of menace about it all. These are the
> bad guys, and the entire organisation is there to do Bad Things. It's
> interesting how easily seduced they all are to the possibilities. Nicely
> examining the shades of grey here. Me likey.
Also, the 'growing up' theme (LILAH: Angel investigations, all growed up).
The idea that now Angel is a parent, he can't *afford* to stand by his
moral principles all the time. He has to compromise. And the beautiful
symmetry with 'Deep Down', and the irony compared with the Jasmine arc...
I have this urge to go away and wathc all 22 episodes again, right now. :)
> Then there's Connor. Hmm. He's cool, no doubt about it, and VK goes off
> the rails convincingly. He's like the Angel equivalent of the character
> of Faith in Buffy season 3. He does things that seem incomprehensible
> but then that's the point. He's a loon. Even then, strapping bombs
> (Megatrons, no less) to people seems a little excessive. It seems like
> more of an excuse for a neat set piece than anything that's been
> properly thought through.
It was shocking, but then that was the point. It's been clear since
'Inside Out' that Connor is genuinely unhinged, and losing Jasmine was
just the event that pushed him over the edge.
I'm so, so torn about the ending. On the one hand, it's possibly Angel's
most noble hour. On the other hand, it's possibly his *least* noble hour.
And on the other other hand, I really, really want VK back next season. :)
> I can't understand the general confusion over Gunn and the panther.
> Okay, it was supposed to be a bit ambiguous, but I took it in relation
> to Gunn questioning where he 'fitted' in AI, and expecting to be Mr.
> Security. Then he gets taken to the 'top floor' essentially, and the
> replacement for the 'boss'. Strong, black and very dangerous, so to
> speak. (Is that the panther that we saw the girl patting in the drawing
> way back in, er, um, that episode with Manny?).
Oh! *Good* catch. I think you may be right.
> Cool ending, with Connor being the happy little boy he always wanted. I
> can see possibilities if he finds out what he was and wants that back,
> but it's still a neat - and heartbreaking - way to take him out of the
> loop. Was anyone else thinking that Minear was trying to buck his own
> trend here by fooling us into thinking he'd killed Connor?
Well, metaphorically Angel *did* kill Connor. 'The father will kill the
Saskia
M2
> I'm so, so torn about the ending. On the one hand, it's possibly Angel's
> most noble hour. On the other hand, it's possibly his *least* noble hour.
I don't see it, you'll have to be more specific for me. How would this be
not noble? I thought it was an incredible, beautiful and selfless thing
that Angel did and it had an big impact on me. Heartbreaking, indeed.
> And on the other other hand, I really, really want VK back next season. :)
Nah. I doubt I'd miss him. He distracted Angel too much from 'the cause'.
Enough with the 'I'm Mr. Dad' and let's get on with saving the world some
more :)
>> I can't understand the general confusion over Gunn and the panther.
>> Okay, it was supposed to be a bit ambiguous, but I took it in relation
>> to Gunn questioning where he 'fitted' in AI, and expecting to be Mr.
>> Security. Then he gets taken to the 'top floor' essentially, and the
>> replacement for the 'boss'. Strong, black and very dangerous, so to
>> speak. (Is that the panther that we saw the girl patting in the drawing
>> way back in, er, um, that episode with Manny?).
>
> Oh! *Good* catch. I think you may be right.
Yes. But I still don't get it. Why was he taken to the top floor? Surely
they don't want him to be boss or anything? <shudder>
> 23:20 <malenfant> If we don't get S5, there will be casualties.
> 23:20 <Hoggy> Agreed
> 23:21 <Hoggy> We send Taf a The Beast costume and he stomps round WB
> killing everything. Good plan?
> 23:22 <malenfant> yes.
Hear hear! I'll take pictures to show the other networks if they refuse to
take over the show.
Neil Hopkins
>I am confused. I enjoyed watching it, but I'm confused. In order to
>convince Angel to take the deal at W&H, Connor has to get a life with a
>proper family and is not Angel's son, right? So, they've closed up Angel
>incase it doesn't get renewed, but where would this whole new direction be
>if it does? I don't get it... anyone care to speculate on how a season will
>be made when they have fantastic resources and things should be made
>piss-easy for them?
Come on - this is a deal from Wolfram & Hart - there's *got* to be
small print in it somewhere ... Anyway, knowing the Angel script
writer's penchant for unexpected plot twists they'll probably be
running a whelk stall by episode 3 of the next season.
--
neil h.
Anya : "I provide much needed sarcasm"
Niall Harrison
He just seems to *get* the characters more than anyone else. *Especially*
Angel himself.
>> I'm so, so torn about the ending. On the one hand, it's possibly Angel's
>> most noble hour. On the other hand, it's possibly his *least* noble hour.
>
> I don't see it, you'll have to be more specific for me. How would this be
> not noble? I thought it was an incredible, beautiful and selfless thing
> that Angel did and it had an big impact on me. Heartbreaking, indeed.
Angel did what Jasmine was trying to do, but on a smaller scale.
Did he have a choice? Yes. But I think the alternative was to kill Connor.
Given those options, Angel did what all parents do - he made a choice on
behalf of his child.
Thing is, his choice affected others, as well. Gunn, Wes, Fred and Lorne
at least, probably many, many more. Is that right?
>> And on the other other hand, I really, really want VK back next season. :)
>
> Nah. I doubt I'd miss him. He distracted Angel too much from 'the cause'.
> Enough with the 'I'm Mr. Dad' and let's get on with saving the world some
> more :)
I'm ready for father and son teamup action, myself.
But we'll probably get Connor not understanding his Dad's job. Which could
still be interesting, I suppose.
>>> I can't understand the general confusion over Gunn and the panther.
>>> Okay, it was supposed to be a bit ambiguous, but I took it in relation
>>> to Gunn questioning where he 'fitted' in AI, and expecting to be Mr.
>>> Security. Then he gets taken to the 'top floor' essentially, and the
>>> replacement for the 'boss'. Strong, black and very dangerous, so to
>>> speak. (Is that the panther that we saw the girl patting in the drawing
>>> way back in, er, um, that episode with Manny?).
>>
>> Oh! *Good* catch. I think you may be right.
>
> Yes. But I still don't get it. Why was he taken to the top floor? Surely
> they don't want him to be boss or anything? <shudder>
Why not? Everyone else has had a chance to be the leader...
Nice to see there's a resolution of sorts to the continuing 'Gunn is
insecure' subthread that's been going all season.
Niall
--
Hope's the child of what luck brings.
Dan Milburn
>> I'm so, so torn about the ending. On the one hand, it's possibly
>> Angel's most noble hour. On the other hand, it's possibly his *least*
>> noble hour.
>
> I don't see it, you'll have to be more specific for me. How would this
> be not noble?
Because it's counter to almost everything Angel believes in.
Connor gets happiness without having to earn or work at it. Angel
basically gives up on his son, admits that he's not capable of saving this
soul. He does it by essentially selling *his* soul to the devil. And as
Tim Minear said, the irony is that after all those speeches about free
will and lies, what Angel does violates Connors free will and puts him in
a lie.
> I thought it was an incredible, beautiful and selfless thing that Angel
> did and it had an big impact on me. Heartbreaking, indeed.
But it's also a very selfish thing that Angel does, because it gives *him*
an easy way out - he doesn't have to deal with Connor as he was any more,
or how he's failed as a father. The price, as in 'I Will Remember You',
is that he retains the memories of what was, but for the ability to turn
back time, make things happen differently, that's really not a very high
one, I don't think.
>> And on the other other hand, I really, really want VK back next season.
>> :)
>
> Nah. I doubt I'd miss him. He distracted Angel too much from 'the
> cause'. Enough with the 'I'm Mr. Dad' and let's get on with saving the
> world some more :)
Things will be very different if he *is* back, though.
Dan
Dan Milburn
>>> Oh! *Good* catch. I think you may be right.
>>
>> Yes. But I still don't get it. Why was he taken to the top floor?
>> Surely they don't want him to be boss or anything? <shudder>
>
> Why not? Everyone else has had a chance to be the leader...
Gunn's had plenty of opportunity, he just hasn't taken it.
> Nice to see there's a resolution of sorts to the continuing 'Gunn is
> insecure' subthread that's been going all season.
Resolution? How?
Dan
Niall Harrison
>> Nice to see there's a resolution of sorts to the continuing 'Gunn is
>> insecure' subthread that's been going all season.
>
> Resolution? How?
Well, that's why it's 'of sorts'. 'Further development' might have been
more accurate. I'm guessing he's going to be less insecure from now on,
though...
Niall
--
Water - the nietzchian drink!
Andrew Hogg
>>> Okay, it was supposed to be a bit ambiguous, but I took it in
>>> relation to Gunn questioning where he 'fitted' in AI, and expecting
>>> to be Mr. Security. Then he gets taken to the 'top floor'
>>> essentially, and the replacement for the 'boss'. Strong, black and
>>> very dangerous, so to speak. (Is that the panther that we saw the
>>> girl patting in the drawing way back in, er, um, that episode with
>>> Manny?).
>>
>> Oh! *Good* catch. I think you may be right.
>
> Yes. But I still don't get it. Why was he taken to the top floor?
> Surely they don't want him to be boss or anything? <shudder>
Nah. Now that Wes is Batman, they want Gunn to be Black Panther</comics
geek>
Saskia
Ok, I see your point, that's one way of looking at it... I only saw the
good deed :) Angel realizing that he will never be able to make Connor
happy, but - being a dad - really *wanting* Connor to be happy, therefore
making a deal with W&H in order to give Connor the happy family.
> Tim Minear said, the irony is that after all those speeches about free
> will and lies, what Angel does violates Connors free will and puts him in
> a lie.
Hmmm. See now I'm depressed.
>> I thought it was an incredible, beautiful and selfless thing that Angel
>> did and it had an big impact on me. Heartbreaking, indeed.
>
> But it's also a very selfish thing that Angel does, because it gives *him*
> an easy way out - he doesn't have to deal with Connor as he was any more,
> or how he's failed as a father.
Oh no, but I don't believe for a minute that Angel did this out of
selfishness. This must have been one of the hardest things he's ever done,
"killing" his son to give him a better, happier life. i can't believe that
he just didn't want to deal with Connor anymore.
>>> And on the other other hand, I really, really want VK back next season.
>>> :)
>>
>> Nah. I doubt I'd miss him. He distracted Angel too much from 'the
>> cause'. Enough with the 'I'm Mr. Dad' and let's get on with saving the
>> world some more :)
>
> Things will be very different if he *is* back, though.
Ok then, only if you promise we won't have any more of this "go away I
hate you" crap.
Saskia
Yes. But just the whole feel and atmosphere of a Minear ep... there's just
nothing like it...
> Angel did what Jasmine was trying to do, but on a smaller scale.
Ok, I can see that, I guess. Much much smaller though.
> Did he have a choice? Yes. But I think the alternative was to kill Connor.
> Given those options, Angel did what all parents do - he made a choice on
> behalf of his child.
>
> Thing is, his choice affected others, as well. Gunn, Wes, Fred and Lorne
> at least, probably many, many more. Is that right?
Actually, I really think so. Ok, so maybe it's not the best thing to do,
making choices for a child like that, but the gang was still able to
choose for themselves, they've done without Angel before.
>>> And on the other other hand, I really, really want VK back next season. :)
>>
>> Nah. I doubt I'd miss him. He distracted Angel too much from 'the cause'.
>> Enough with the 'I'm Mr. Dad' and let's get on with saving the world some
>> more :)
>
> I'm ready for father and son teamup action, myself.
>
> But we'll probably get Connor not understanding his Dad's job. Which could
> still be interesting, I suppose.
Teamup I might be able to live with. The second option, not so much.
Sounds too much like "I hate you, you're not my dad" kind of thing...
>> Yes. But I still don't get it. Why was he taken to the top floor? Surely
>> they don't want him to be boss or anything? <shudder>
>
> Why not? Everyone else has had a chance to be the leader...
Yeah but *Gunn*?! What's he gonna do? Bore everyone into doing what he
says? Buh. ;p
Dan Milburn
Well, there's that too. I'm not trying to say that the way I've described
it is the only or the correct way. I'm not even saying that it's
necessarily *my* view. As Niall says, it's simultaneously his most and
least noble hour, and I think that's the brilliance of it.
>> Tim Minear said, the irony is that after all those speeches about free
>> will and lies, what Angel does violates Connors free will and puts him
>> in a lie.
>
> Hmmm. See now I'm depressed.
Well, you did ask. ;)
>>> I thought it was an incredible, beautiful and selfless thing that
>>> Angel did and it had an big impact on me. Heartbreaking, indeed.
>>
>> But it's also a very selfish thing that Angel does, because it gives
>> *him* an easy way out - he doesn't have to deal with Connor as he was
>> any more, or how he's failed as a father.
>
> Oh no, but I don't believe for a minute that Angel did this out of
> selfishness. This must have been one of the hardest things he's ever
> done, "killing" his son to give him a better, happier life. i can't
> believe that he just didn't want to deal with Connor anymore.
Oh, it was definitely hard for him to do, but I don't think that
automatically makes it selfless. If the choice he made *hadn't* been
available to him, I think the other options would have been even harder.
Kill Connor? Attempt to rehabilitate him? People have been making
comparisons with how he dealt with Faith back in 5x5/Sanctuary. She was
screaming at him to kill her, and yet he didn't. He took the hard path,
for him and for her. Now, I'm not sure the two situations are directly
comparable. Connor was far further gone than Faith was, and it's hard to
even conceive of how Angel could have got through to him, but still, it's
worth thinking about.
Or for another perspective: keeping Connor in the first place was selfish.
He could *never* have had a normal life, given who his father was and
the circumstances in which he would have grown up. Angel couldn't have
predicted what actually happened, but he certainly should have realised
that a baby wouldn't be safe around him, and he should have given him up
for adoption. How Connor is today is partly the consequence of a choice
Angel made back then. But then he gets to take it back. It's something
we'd all like to be able to do at various times, but is it the *right*
thing to do? Shouldn't we live with our mistakes and face the
consequences of them? Yes, I think it was selfish.
>>>> And on the other other hand, I really, really want VK back next
>>>> season.
>>>> :)
>>>
>>> Nah. I doubt I'd miss him. He distracted Angel too much from 'the
>>> cause'. Enough with the 'I'm Mr. Dad' and let's get on with saving the
>>> world some more :)
>>
>> Things will be very different if he *is* back, though.
>
> Ok then, only if you promise we won't have any more of this "go away I
> hate you" crap.
Oh, I hope not. But then they've really gone as far as they can with
that. I'd like to see VK get to do something a little more varied with
Connor. What that might be, I don't know, but I'd like to see it. :)
Dan
Shuggie
<cgbra...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>whats the succubus club?
>
Internet Radio show that discusses Buffy and Angel (mostly Buffy
though). This time of year they get a lot of Buffy writers on the show.
Last week they had Drew Goddard. This week was Drew Greenberg, Jane
Espenson and Rebecca Rand Kirshner. Next week they've got David Fury and
(hopefully) Tim Minear.
Here's their website www.thesuccubusclub.com and here's 'listener'
Joel's website who records the shows
http://joelhume.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
--
Shug
The Dude abides.
pikelet
news:0qgjbv03pkip3i0vp...@4ax.com:
> I want names, I want places, I want dates.
> Tafka <tafka...@nospam-spamfree.boltfree.net>. alt.buffy.europe.
> Thu, 08 May 2003 03:31:33 +0100:
>
>>I want names, I want places, I want dates.
>>"Andrew Cameron" <use...@tags2k.co.uk>. alt.buffy.europe. Wed, 7 May
>>2003 21:23:28 +0100:
> Still - "huh"!
>
> (Most of ata is also all "Huh?". And NO-ONE seems to 'get' the
> panther...)
My first thought when I saw that was 'Slayer imagery'.
Gunn as the male Slayer? AKnight would be cursing that, I sense.
*Could* make sense if something along those lines happened. From 'Fray'
it's apparent that Slayers don't get called after a particular point,
which may or may not be the end of 'Buffy', so perhaps Gunn now steps
into the fold as a darker, male version of a Slayer?
I hasten to add that I'm saying 'darker' because of the panther imagery
rather than the lioness imagery from 'Restless' et al. Is it a lioness? I
forget.
Ho hum.
Tim.
Jonathan Dupont
> Finale baby yeah!
Possibly no more Angel ever - yea... uh, hopefully not.
> I am confused. I enjoyed watching it, but I'm confused.
I would be confused if I had thought it through, but I'm thinking I'm
just letting it hang so not much confusement. It's strange seeing as
I've had longer than unspoilered people to think this through - I
accidentally found out firstly an old character was coming back, then
that there would be a new direction next year "like someone from
Greenpeace going to work at an oil company" (or something like that)
which wasn't that hard to work out, and then final confirmation that
that Angel & co. were going to work for W&H. I hate, hate, hate the way
that spoilers for finales get everywhere - I already know far more about
about Buffy than I wanted to. [/rant]
As for the episode itself... Not bad. Not stunningly, better-than-
everything-else-worthy-to-be-TM's-last-Angel-episode good, but not bad.
Plus he killed someone (sort of), which should keep you all happy.
To use my new lazy, review system:
+ Last scene, reflections of Deep Down and so on. Great little moment
+ Wesley trying to set Lilah free
+ Gunn & the panther, or jaguar, or whatever
+ Working Buffy in
- Not enough build up for Conner attack, and they needed to show more
clearly that he'd been killed
- Reusing CwDP actor. Not good
- The walking to the Limo scene. Good sort of, but not each
justification from each character. Come to think of it, they need more
justification full stop for why they're accepting the offer,
> In order to
> convince Angel to take the deal at W&H, Connor has to get a life with
> a proper family and is not Angel's son, right?
Think so. Although how long he's going to stay there for is another
matter.
> So, they've closed up
> Angel incase it doesn't get renewed, but where would this whole new
> direction be if it does? I don't get it... anyone care to speculate
> on how a season will be made when they have fantastic resources and
> things should be made piss-easy for them?
>
> --
> Andrew Cameron
Well, W&H never managed to be very successful at being evil...
I don't know - a few more cars doesn't seem to me to be a gurantee that
everything will be easy for them. Just gives more opportunities for
stories to come from, and so on.
Jon
Mattia Valente
>>will and lies, what Angel does violates Connors free will and puts him in
>>a lie.
>
> Hmmm. See now I'm depressed.
I think that's part of the point. And it's what makes the moment doubly
bittersweet.
>>But it's also a very selfish thing that Angel does, because it gives *him*
>>an easy way out - he doesn't have to deal with Connor as he was any more,
>>or how he's failed as a father.
>
> Oh no, but I don't believe for a minute that Angel did this out of
> selfishness. This must have been one of the hardest things he's ever done,
> "killing" his son to give him a better, happier life. i can't believe that
> he just didn't want to deal with Connor anymore.
Perhaps not, but he's giving his son the easy way out, not letting him
have the choice. He's plugging him into the Matrix without telling him;
he's not trying to help him deal, live in the real world, work the
problems out. Contrast with Faith.
>>>Nah. I doubt I'd miss him. He distracted Angel too much from 'the
>>>cause'. Enough with the 'I'm Mr. Dad' and let's get on with saving the
>>>world some more :)
>>
>>Things will be very different if he *is* back, though.
>
> Ok then, only if you promise we won't have any more of this "go away I
> hate you" crap.
Well, some is fine. Just less whiney floppy haired bastardness</hoggy>
Mattia
pikelet
>>>But it's also a very selfish thing that Angel does, because it gives
>>>*him* an easy way out - he doesn't have to deal with Connor as he was
>>>any more, or how he's failed as a father.
>>
>> Oh no, but I don't believe for a minute that Angel did this out of
>> selfishness. This must have been one of the hardest things he's ever
>> done, "killing" his son to give him a better, happier life. i can't
>> believe that he just didn't want to deal with Connor anymore.
>
> Perhaps not, but he's giving his son the easy way out, not letting him
> have the choice. He's plugging him into the Matrix without telling
> him; he's not trying to help him deal, live in the real world, work
> the problems out. Contrast with Faith.
Faith made her own choices. As Connor is so often keen on pointing out -
he didn't choose to be the son of two vampires. He didn't choose to have
his one night of passion give rise to a people-eating deity. He didn't
choose to have everything he's ever done fall down around his ears.
Faith, on the other hand, as she is so often keen on pointing out, was
offered every chance by Buffy to be friends an' stuff (and I'm not sure I
*entirely* agree, but it's what she says in 'Sanctuary', so it must be
the case), and feels that there's something to gain from her making a
conscious decision to change the choices that she makes.
Connor's been taught that, no matter what he does, no matter how hard he
tries, every attempt at happiness he's ever known has been screwed by
people manipulating him. Whether it's Holtz manipulating his affections,
fake!Cordy manipulating his lusts, or Jasmine manipulating his desire to
belong, something always comes along and messes it up for him.
The one thing, the only thing, he feels he has any control over is his
own death. Connor is past the point of wanting to deal. All the talking
and doughnuts in the world aren't going to convince him that this world
is a place worth living in, because his life has done nothing but teach
him differently.
Connor just isn't as strong, as dominant a character as Faith. He's
angry, sure, but he has nothing to point at in the way of a purpose like
Faith. Faith is and always will be the Slayer, and can take some token
comfort in the fact that, in some way, she has the capability within her
to be a force for good. Connor's purpose on this earth? To bring a false
god to enslave us all[1].
Angel and Connor have spent time trying to work things out, but other
stuff always gets in the way. Connor's about to end his life anyway,
feeling that it's pointless. What Angel does is not only offer him a
*new* life, so we get healthy!Connor, he even gives mental!Connor what he
wants most - death, finally, and a sense of release.
Connor *is* in the real world. He will have problems, no doubt, that he
has to work out. We get the impression that he's not as committed to his
girlfriend as his family might prefer him to be, for instance. But he's
in the real world, and so having such real-world worries and concerns is
entirely acceptable. Far better for a growing lad than supernatural
goings-on, demon killing and things like that. Angel, Wesley, Gunn, Fred,
they all made the choice to join AI and do that stuff. Connor never had a
choice.
So has Angel taken him out of the real world, stopped him from facing up
to his problems? Nope. Angel's put him into the real world. Given him a
whole new set of problems that he'll have to face. But this time around,
Connor's going to face them with what he's always wanted more than
anything else - family, and someone to be there for him.
Tim
[1] Deliberately contentious use of language.