Willow V Buffy
Mattia Valente
>
> Do you ever think Willow will have her own spin off show?
Honestly?
No.
Don't think it would be a particularly good idea either (and before you
ask, yes, I am an AH fan..)
Mattia
ReplyMeister[tm]
Rob Myall
If they tried it, it'd be likely to die due to (possibly) unfair
comparison to Charmed, and giving a distinct tone, different from that
show would be tricky in itself...
Regards
Rob
*bla...@ht.com
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vj
strong enough in the series, but she might do well to move to Angel like
Cordy did... cordy is WAY better in Angel. Angel seems to have lost part of
his character, I think, ne other veiws???
<*blac...@ht.com> wrote in message news:9d8qhu$6ii$1...@news.netmar.com...
> Do you ever think Willow will have her own spin off show?
>
>
>
>
> ----- Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the
Mattia Valente
Please reply below quoted text?
> <*blac...@ht.com> wrote in message news:9d8qhu$6ii$1...@news.netmar.com...
> > Do you ever think Willow will have her own spin off show?
>
> There SHOULD be one, but I doubt there will be, as her character is not
> strong enough in the series,
..which is why there shouldn't be. It's not that I wouldn't enjoy lots
of Willow, but I just don't see it being something with a future.
> but she might do well to move to Angel like
> Cordy did... cordy is WAY better in Angel.
True, but I don't see a move to LA (which would, at the moment, make no
sense whatsoever...) having any sort of beneficial effect on Willow's
character. Cordelia was put into a number of strange situations, a lot
happened to her (visions, for one thing, no more money for another), and
she grew and changed, something that hardly happened in three seasons of
Buffy (to Cordy, of course...) Willow's been doing the growing and
changing thing all along, always had more focus than Cordy did.
> Angel seems to have lost part of his character, I think, ne
> other veiws???
Umm...how so? What character? He's very different from WTTH Angel (WTTH
Angel is very odd, un-Angellike, even ;-) but he hasn't lost much of
anything. He's changed a little, doing different things, and making a
damn good show. We're getting to see a lot MORE character in 'Angel'
than we ever saw on Buffy.
Mattia
ReplyMeister[tm]
vj
"Mattia Valente" <mae.v...@std.vu.nl> wrote in message
news:3AF81CF1...@std.vu.nl...
> vj wrote:
>
> Please reply below quoted text?
>
> > <*blac...@ht.com> wrote in message news:9d8qhu$6ii$1...@news.netmar.com...
> > > Do you ever think Willow will have her own spin off show?
> >
> > There SHOULD be one, but I doubt there will be, as her character is not
> > strong enough in the series,
>
> ..which is why there shouldn't be. It's not that I wouldn't enjoy lots
> of Willow, but I just don't see it being something with a future.
I like willow, cuz out of them all she is the most likely characater u would
meet in a steet.
>
> > but she might do well to move to Angel like
> > Cordy did... cordy is WAY better in Angel.
>
> True, but I don't see a move to LA (which would, at the moment, make no
> sense whatsoever...) having any sort of beneficial effect on Willow's
> character. Cordelia was put into a number of strange situations, a lot
> happened to her (visions, for one thing, no more money for another), and
> she grew and changed, something that hardly happened in three seasons of
> Buffy (to Cordy, of course...) Willow's been doing the growing and
> changing thing all along, always had more focus than Cordy did.
Thats true
>
> > Angel seems to have lost part of his character, I think, ne
> > other veiws???
>
> Umm...how so? What character? He's very different from WTTH Angel (WTTH
> Angel is very odd, un-Angellike, even ;-) but he hasn't lost much of
> anything. He's changed a little, doing different things, and making a
> damn good show. We're getting to see a lot MORE character in 'Angel'
> than we ever saw on Buffy.
>
Whats WTTH mean(I'm new to this group so i don't know all of the acrynoms).
> Mattia
> ReplyMeister[tm]
>
>
Mattia Valente
> > Angel is very odd, un-Angellike, even ;-) but he hasn't lost much of
> > anything. He's changed a little, doing different things, and making a
> > damn good show. We're getting to see a lot MORE character in 'Angel'
> > than we ever saw on Buffy.
>
> Whats WTTH mean(I'm new to this group so i don't know all of the acrynoms).
Welcome to the Hellmouth. The first episode, when we see Angel for the
first time. He's quite different there..
Mattia
ReplyMeister[tm]
vj
Oh right I c, yes I agree WTTH angel sees almost to have a hint of Angelus
in him.
vikki
> Mattia
> ReplyMeister[tm]
Mattia Valente
<ANGEL and character development>
> I haven't seen any eps of S2, so maybe i'll get surprised and see completely
> new sides to Angel, but when it comes to S1, the developments of the
> surrounding characters(Doyle/Cordy/Wesley, even Kate) have been the most
> interesting to me. Somehow i never felt emotionaly involved with Angel (in
> BtVS or AtS).
No no no! It's just A. Not Angel the Series. That's a show that doesn't
exist. <breathes deeply> I'm ok again. No sweat.
Anyway, I've always liked Angel, and I HAVE seen S2 eps, and now I'll
shut up.
<eg>
Mattia
ReplyMeister[tm]
Arkasha
> vj wrote:
<snip>
> > Angel seems to have lost part of his character, I think, ne
> > other veiws???
>
> Umm...how so? What character? He's very different from WTTH Angel (WTTH
> Angel is very odd, un-Angellike, even ;-) but he hasn't lost much of
> anything. He's changed a little, doing different things, and making a
> damn good show. We're getting to see a lot MORE character in 'Angel'
> than we ever saw on Buffy.
>
has gained a lot either. I haven't really see any big development since
begin S3-ish. The storyline surrounding his character is already to rounded
off for that. With the curse and everything, there's little opportunity to
write him into another meaningful love-relationship. They can't turn him
evil again, they already did that twice (three if you count the
deception-thing). So there's not much more for him to do then atone for his
all his evil deeds and be broody about it.
I haven't seen any eps of S2, so maybe i'll get surprised and see completely
new sides to Angel, but when it comes to S1, the developments of the
surrounding characters(Doyle/Cordy/Wesley, even Kate) have been the most
interesting to me. Somehow i never felt emotionaly involved with Angel (in
BtVS or AtS).
Arkasha
__________________________________
Requiescat in Pace:
http://www.envy.nu/restinpeace
-----------------------------------------------------------
@nkhoŽ
<*blac...@ht.com> schreef in bericht news:9d8qhu$6ii$1...@news.netmar.com...
> Do you ever think Willow will have her own spin off show?
Probaly not, but an "evil willow" show would be cool. :o)
> ----- Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the
Rob Myall
>
> <*blac...@ht.com> schreef in bericht news:9d8qhu$6ii$1...@news.netmar.com...
> > Do you ever think Willow will have her own spin off show?
>
> Probaly not, but an "evil willow" show would be cool. :o)
>
Hmmm... VampWillow with cool witchy powers... although maybe _not_
floating pencils :)
Regards
Rob
Millan
To answer that you should answer plenty of other questions first, for
instance:
What defines a witch?
What defines a vampire?
How much of a person remains when he/she becomes a vampire?
Where does witches magic come from?
Where do other beings/persons magic come from?
Anyone care to take a stab at any of these?
/Millan
Willow: 'No, it's great... if we want to make ferns invisible, or
communicate with shrimp, I've got the goods right here.'
Oz: 'Our lives are different than other people's.'
- Graduation Day, Part 1
Rob Myall
>
> Rob Myall <robert...@nokia.com> wrote in message news:
> > "@nkhoŽ" wrote:
> > >
> > > <*blac...@ht.com> schreef in bericht news:9d8qhu$6ii$1...@news.netmar.com...
> > > > Do you ever think Willow will have her own spin off show?
> > >
> > > Probaly not, but an "evil willow" show would be cool. :o)
> > >
> > That got me musing... can vampires be witches?
> >
> > Hmmm... VampWillow with cool witchy powers... although maybe _not_
> > floating pencils :)
> >
> > Regards
> > Rob
>
> To answer that you should answer plenty of other questions first, for
> instance:
> What defines a witch?
> What defines a vampire?
> How much of a person remains when he/she becomes a vampire?
> Where does witches magic come from?
> Where do other beings/persons magic come from?
>
> Anyone care to take a stab at any of these?
>
> /Millan
>
Well, I don't remember the series really explaining a witches powers
anywhere, but vampires have been reasonably clearly defined...
Vampire bites human. Human drinks from Vampire.
Demon takes over human body (human loses soul), and retains all
memories
of previous life... and, if Harmony is anything to go by, retains
pretty much all the personality they had before, but with fewer
inhibitions (no moral qualms about killing people for instance).
So, if the only real difference is whether they have a soul or not, it
really just depends whether a witch needs a soul...
If the witchcraft as portrayed in the show is purely dependent upon
the ritual involved, then presumably the answer would be yes
(evidenced by "The Harvest" and "Becoming Part 2"). However, is this
ritual magic distinct from (the magical elements of) Wicca, as
practiced by Willow and Tara?
Regards
Rob
Mattia Valente
> Millan wrote:
> > To answer that you should answer plenty of other questions first, for
> > instance:
> > What defines a witch?
> > What defines a vampire?
> > How much of a person remains when he/she becomes a vampire?
> > Where does witches magic come from?
> > Where do other beings/persons magic come from?
>
> anywhere, but vampires have been reasonably clearly defined...
They didn't, not really, but it seems to be innate to a degree.
> Vampire bites human. Human drinks from Vampire.
After human is almost dead.
> Demon takes over human body (human loses soul), and retains all
> memories
> of previous life... and, if Harmony is anything to go by, retains
> pretty much all the personality they had before, but with fewer
> inhibitions (no moral qualms about killing people for instance).
Explain Spike, Dru, and Angelus then. The memories are definately there,
they shape the resulting being, to a degree, but the Demon can bring a
whole lot to the mix. We were having this discussion, more or less, over
in ToG[tm] recently (technically we're still at it..), and we came to
the conclusion it's not very simple.
> So, if the only real difference is whether they have a soul or not, it
> really just depends whether a witch needs a soul...
The demon takes the place of the soul, in a sense, changes the moral
framework the person is in. Some inhibitions are gone, for example, but
many human traits remain (Vampires are considerd that basest
bastardization of demons by other demons, see 'Hero' for example..)
HOWEVER, even if the vamp does get a soul (like Angel) the demonic side
does not dissapear. It is perhaps surpressed, but is definately there,
and the powers it lends (regeneration, the ways to kill it, that sort of
stuff) remain. It seems the soul's main function is 'regulatroy'; it
influences behaviour and moral choice. It's not a magic bullet though,
giving all vamps souls would solve the problem; there's still more
innate evil within them than within a human, since they've got all the
humanity in there, and you add a demon to the mix (which is what
expresses itself when vamps are overcome by bloodlust.)
> If the witchcraft as portrayed in the show is purely dependent upon
> the ritual involved, then presumably the answer would be yes
> (evidenced by "The Harvest" and "Becoming Part 2"). However, is this
> ritual magic distinct from (the magical elements of) Wicca, as
> practiced by Willow and Tara?
Wicca <> Witchcraft. At least, the 'Wicca' in the show bears little if
any resemblance to 'Wicca' in reality. Spells do not only depend on the
rituals and motions, there is strength involved; we've seen Willow
comment that she's not strong enough to do some things, like bring Amy
back from Rat-state. It all started with floating pencils, and that
doesn't have much to do with rituals.
Mattia
ReplyMeister[tm]
Rob Myall
Mattia Valente wrote:
>
> Rob Myall wrote:
> > Millan wrote:
> > > To answer that you should answer plenty of other questions first, for
> > > instance:
> > > What defines a witch?
> > > What defines a vampire?
> > > How much of a person remains when he/she becomes a vampire?
> > > Where does witches magic come from?
> > > Where do other beings/persons magic come from?
> >
<snip>
>
> > Demon takes over human body (human loses soul), and retains all
> > memories
> > of previous life... and, if Harmony is anything to go by, retains
> > pretty much all the personality they had before, but with fewer
> > inhibitions (no moral qualms about killing people for instance).
>
> Explain Spike, Dru, and Angelus then. The memories are definately there,
> they shape the resulting being, to a degree, but the Demon can bring a
> whole lot to the mix. We were having this discussion, more or less, over
> in ToG[tm] recently (technically we're still at it..), and we came to
> the conclusion it's not very simple.
>
I'm wondering if this is due to change over time... living for long
enough with no restrictions on how you act and very little chance of
dying...
Spike (before being a vampire) appeared to want to be noticed, to gain
recognition for some act or deed (whether his poetry was up to the
task or not is another matter). This continued over into his time as a
vampire - he still wanted to be noticed and recognized, but with very
little chance of dying, he started to take greater risks - taking on
the Slayer to make a name for himself among vampires.
I'd have a hard time pinning down Drusilla's personality before
becoming a vampire (partially because Angelus drove her mad before
turning her)...
Angel's personality as a human - difficult to say - we've only really
seen him for a brief moment (being turned by Darla) - his behaviour
since regaining his soul can't really be held as indicative of his
original personality (although his behaviour towards the end of S2
(post "Epiphanies") may be closer. His motives as a vampire were never
all that clear either - "Passion" seemed to indicate that he still had
some feelings towards Buffy (Lust, desire to possess her - not the
warm fuzzies), but the motives for the whole Acathla gig are never
really spelled out...
> > So, if the only real difference is whether they have a soul or not, it
> > really just depends whether a witch needs a soul...
>
> The demon takes the place of the soul, in a sense, changes the moral
> framework the person is in. Some inhibitions are gone, for example, but
> many human traits remain (Vampires are considerd that basest
> bastardization of demons by other demons, see 'Hero' for example..)
> HOWEVER, even if the vamp does get a soul (like Angel) the demonic side
> does not dissapear. It is perhaps surpressed, but is definately there,
> and the powers it lends (regeneration, the ways to kill it, that sort of
> stuff) remain. It seems the soul's main function is 'regulatroy'; it
> influences behaviour and moral choice. It's not a magic bullet though,
> giving all vamps souls would solve the problem; there's still more
> innate evil within them than within a human, since they've got all the
> humanity in there, and you add a demon to the mix (which is what
> expresses itself when vamps are overcome by bloodlust.)
>
I'm not sure giving all vampires a soul would _completely_ solve the
problem - a reasonable number would be of low enough moral fiber that
they're unlikely to change a great deal... It would allow them to
feel, but if they felt no remorse for actions committed before
becoming a vampire, it's unlikely they'd feel any for actions
committed while a vampire...
It would certainly cut down on the work of the Slayer though... (or
would it make it more difficult - the lines become a lot more blurred
if all vampires have a soul - you're back in the real world where
"What crimes have they committed?" and "Are they geniunely remorseful
for what they've done and trying to atone?" become issues)
> > If the witchcraft as portrayed in the show is purely dependent upon
> > the ritual involved, then presumably the answer would be yes
> > (evidenced by "The Harvest" and "Becoming Part 2"). However, is this
> > ritual magic distinct from (the magical elements of) Wicca, as
> > practiced by Willow and Tara?
>
> Wicca <> Witchcraft. At least, the 'Wicca' in the show bears little if
> any resemblance to 'Wicca' in reality. Spells do not only depend on the
> rituals and motions, there is strength involved; we've seen Willow
> comment that she's not strong enough to do some things, like bring Amy
> back from Rat-state. It all started with floating pencils, and that
> doesn't have much to do with rituals.
This questions whether there's any (inner) strength involved in the
rituals we've seen the vampires perform - the whole "Vessel" ritual in
the harvest seemed fairly trivial for the Master to perform, once the
celestial alignment was right. Similarly, Angelus freeing Acathla
seemed more born out of ritual (the blood letting) than from any inner
strength...
I think these are the only cases which have been shown... so, not very
conclusive...
Mattia Valente
> Mattia Valente wrote:
> > Rob Myall wrote:
> > Explain Spike, Dru, and Angelus then. The memories are definately there,
> > they shape the resulting being, to a degree, but the Demon can bring a
> > whole lot to the mix. We were having this discussion, more or less, over
> > in ToG[tm] recently (technically we're still at it..), and we came to
> > the conclusion it's not very simple.
>
> I'm wondering if this is due to change over time... living for long
> enough with no restrictions on how you act and very little chance of
> dying...
Hmm...it is likely to change a t least a little bit..
ROB!!! SPOILERS!!!!
Same rules as in UMTB apply. NOTHING from S5 is free range just yet.
tss..they're minor spoilers, but they're there.
SPOILER SPACE S5/S2 Angel, up to eps 7, minor spoilers S2E16+
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> Spike (before being a vampire) appeared to want to be noticed, to gain
> recognition for some act or deed (whether his poetry was up to the
> task or not is another matter). This continued over into his time as a
> vampire - he still wanted to be noticed and recognized, but with very
> little chance of dying, he started to take greater risks - taking on
> the Slayer to make a name for himself among vampires.
Yes, more or less. He got a lot more cocky, brash, lived it up a good
deal. In part it came from his original personality, just without the
moral restircitons, but in other ways it's very different: he's no
longer shy and insecure at all. He does what he wants, and does it well.
The Slayer wasn't really something he did to make a name for himself: it
was an obsession with something bigger than him, stronger than him (in
theory), something he could surmount. His next big victory. In 'Fool for
Love' we also see a Spike who's busy rebelling in a big way against all
that he was before.
> I'd have a hard time pinning down Drusilla's personality before
> becoming a vampire (partially because Angelus drove her mad before
> turning her)...
Well, she was a good little catholic girl who was turned completely
insane. Now she's a vampire she's kept the insanity and gained a taste
for evil and mayhem as well. Not te good but crazy little girl she was
before.
> Angel's personality as a human - difficult to say - we've only really
> seen him for a brief moment (being turned by Darla) - his behaviour
> since regaining his soul can't really be held as indicative of his
> original personality (although his behaviour towards the end of S2
> (post "Epiphanies") may be closer.
Epiphany. Singular. He just had the one..
Anyhow, Liam was a bit of a womanizer, a drunk, no sense of
responsibility, a scoundrel, in short, living his life to the fullest
(and to his father's discontent.) Liam only lived very very shortly as
an adult, never really got to develop a personality very much. Angel is
the result of immense guilt over what he had done as Angelus, he's not
really Liam any more by any definition of the word. Memories of
countless murders, mutilations, etc. can't be pushed away. That, and
just the act of (un)living itself.
> His motives as a vampire were never
> all that clear either - "Passion" seemed to indicate that he still had
> some feelings towards Buffy (Lust, desire to possess her - not the
> warm fuzzies), but the motives for the whole Acathla gig are never
> really spelled out...
Angelus has always been one for the dramatic, the stylish; 'Passion'
shows us the dark and evil side of the character, yet also reveals the
feelings he harbors. Indeed, no warm fuzzies there. Killing her isn't
fun, you see, he learned that lesson early on:
Recall the flashbacks in 'The Prodigal', where Angelus has just killed
his entire family (we later learn he killed his entire village, give or
take..that pretty much settles the 'are they evil from the get go or do
they turn evil later' thing..), and Darla explains why he doesn't quite
feel satisfied; the victory is only momentary. Angelus revels in doing
harm, as is again witnessed by him driving Drusilla mad. For him, it's
an art, there's the need for finesse, for subtlety. It's something he
perfected over the years of his rampaging, even teaching it to some (re:
Somnambulist), and falling on others' deaf ears (re: Spike in 'Fool for
Love'..)
His motives as a Vampire are quite clear to me: Angelus is about as evil
as they come, and has elevated suffering to an art form. Just a simple
hunt and kill aren't enough. It's the kind of mind that sees beauty in
destruction, and so the whole 'Acathla gig' does more or less compile.
Recall the Judge's comment on Angelus when he first turned up in
'Innocence': There is no humanity in this one. Angelus is no ordinary
vamp; he's a good bit beyond average, far beyond Spike and Dru in many
respects, and in some beyond even the master, because he's willing to
change, evolve, adapt.
> I'm not sure giving all vampires a soul would _completely_ solve the
> problem - a reasonable number would be of low enough moral fiber that
> they're unlikely to change a great deal... It would allow them to
> feel, but if they felt no remorse for actions committed before
> becoming a vampire, it's unlikely they'd feel any for actions
> committed while a vampire...
Yep. Just like normal people, with the extra dose of evil built in ;-)
> It would certainly cut down on the work of the Slayer though... (or
> would it make it more difficult - the lines become a lot more blurred
> if all vampires have a soul - you're back in the real world where
> "What crimes have they committed?" and "Are they geniunely remorseful
> for what they've done and trying to atone?" become issues)
Oh, it would make Buffy's life impossible. She can't even kill Spike
because he has a chip in his head (that's the excuse, anyway..) Also,
not really an easy option. Then again, neither is having one girl hang
around to slay all the vampires, but hey...
> > Wicca <> Witchcraft. At least, the 'Wicca' in the show bears little if
> > any resemblance to 'Wicca' in reality. Spells do not only depend on the
> > rituals and motions, there is strength involved; we've seen Willow
> > comment that she's not strong enough to do some things, like bring Amy
> > back from Rat-state. It all started with floating pencils, and that
> > doesn't have much to do with rituals.
>
> This questions whether there's any (inner) strength involved in the
> rituals we've seen the vampires perform - the whole "Vessel" ritual in
> the harvest seemed fairly trivial for the Master to perform, once the
> celestial alignment was right. Similarly, Angelus freeing Acathla
> seemed more born out of ritual (the blood letting) than from any inner
> strength...
>
> I think these are the only cases which have been shown... so, not very
> conclusive...
True.
OTOH, both the Master and Angelus are strong vamps; Angelus was
seemingly prophesied to do something with the whole Acathla situation
(if you believe Whistler), and the Master has been at it for a long
time. Many centuries. They've both got inner strength. I'm not quite
sure how the demon part of it fits into the equation, though. They're
partly supernatural by natre, so..
Mattia
ReplyMeister[tm]
Millan
> Mattia Valente wrote:
> > Rob Myall wrote:
> > > Millan wrote:
> > > > To answer that you should answer plenty of other questions first, for
> > > > instance:
> > > > What defines a witch?
> > > > What defines a vampire?
> > > > How much of a person remains when he/she becomes a vampire?
> > > > Where does witches magic come from?
> > > > Where do other beings/persons magic come from?
> > >
> <snip>
> > > So, if the only real difference is whether they have a soul or not, it
> > > really just depends whether a witch needs a soul...
> >
> > The demon takes the place of the soul, in a sense, changes the moral
> > framework the person is in. Some inhibitions are gone, for example, but
> > many human traits remain (Vampires are considerd that basest
> > bastardization of demons by other demons, see 'Hero' for example..)
> > HOWEVER, even if the vamp does get a soul (like Angel) the demonic side
> > does not dissapear. It is perhaps surpressed, but is definately there,
...which is said right out in The Dark Age, when Angel says that he is
used to battling the demonic force inside himself.
> > and the powers it lends (regeneration, the ways to kill it, that sort of
> > stuff) remain. It seems the soul's main function is 'regulatroy'; it
> > influences behaviour and moral choice. It's not a magic bullet though,
> > giving all vamps souls would solve the problem; there's still more
> > innate evil within them than within a human, since they've got all the
> > humanity in there, and you add a demon to the mix (which is what
> > expresses itself when vamps are overcome by bloodlust.)
> >
> I'm not sure giving all vampires a soul would _completely_ solve the
> problem - a reasonable number would be of low enough moral fiber that
> they're unlikely to change a great deal... It would allow them to
> feel, but if they felt no remorse for actions committed before
> becoming a vampire, it's unlikely they'd feel any for actions
> committed while a vampire...
I have one more aspect to suggest.
The soul does more than being feelings and a moral fiber. It is also a
connection to other humans. Without a soul, the demon feels kinship
with other demons and humans are just fodder. Add a soul, and not only
have you gained feelings or moral/ethical sense, you've gained a
connection to humanity as a whole.
Such a sense of "togetherness" will also make the vampire more prone
to change. Vampires as a rule don't change much (as I've understood
it). There's stagnation in death/undeath. Being a part of busy,
shortlived humanity encourages change.
> > > If the witchcraft as portrayed in the show is purely dependent upon
> > > the ritual involved, then presumably the answer would be yes
> > > (evidenced by "The Harvest" and "Becoming Part 2"). However, is this
> > > ritual magic distinct from (the magical elements of) Wicca, as
> > > practiced by Willow and Tara?
> >
> > Wicca <> Witchcraft. At least, the 'Wicca' in the show bears little if
> > any resemblance to 'Wicca' in reality. Spells do not only depend on the
> > rituals and motions, there is strength involved; we've seen Willow
> > comment that she's not strong enough to do some things, like bring Amy
> > back from Rat-state. It all started with floating pencils, and that
> > doesn't have much to do with rituals.
>
> This questions whether there's any (inner) strength involved in the
> rituals we've seen the vampires perform - the whole "Vessel" ritual in
> the harvest seemed fairly trivial for the Master to perform, once the
> celestial alignment was right. Similarly, Angelus freeing Acathla
> seemed more born out of ritual (the blood letting) than from any inner
> strength...
>
> I think these are the only cases which have been shown... so, not very
> conclusive...
Vampires doing magic/rituals:
The Master in The Harvest.
The Annointed One in When She Was Bad.
Spike in What's My Line, Part Two.
Angelus in Becoming, Part Two.
Angel in Revelations.
I might have missed some, but these came immediately to mind.
All of them seem to rely more on ritual than inner strength,
suggesting that anyone/any being could do it.
Witches' magic on the other hand have been shown both as ritual magic
and as a force that is due to focus and/or inner power.
The question then becomes, does the inner power (or ability to tap an
outside source of power) come from the soul or some other aspect?
/Millan
Willow: 'The only real witch here is fuzzy little Amy.'
- Something Blue
Rob Myall
>
> Rob Myall wrote:
> > Mattia Valente wrote:
> > > Rob Myall wrote:
>
> ROB!!! SPOILERS!!!!
>
> Same rules as in UMTB apply. NOTHING from S5 is free range just yet.
> tss..they're minor spoilers, but they're there.
Yeesh! Sorry about that... Obviously I wasn't thinking on Friday (I
remember checking the stuff on Angel to make sure there wasn't
anything spoilery there... completely forgetting the Spike
references...)
And the translation of UMTB is eluding me...
> > I'd have a hard time pinning down Drusilla's personality before
> > becoming a vampire (partially because Angelus drove her mad before
> > turning her)...
>
> Well, she was a good little catholic girl who was turned completely
> insane. Now she's a vampire she's kept the insanity and gained a taste
> for evil and mayhem as well. Not te good but crazy little girl she was
> before.
There's still elements of the little girl in her actions... But even
before being turned, Angelus tried to make her believe she was evil -
whether this worked or not is fairly redundant - presumably, once she
was turned, there was no chance of her being saved and so she turned
completely to evil - her belief in absolutes of good and evil gave her
no choice in the matter...
> > Angel's personality as a human - difficult to say - we've only really
> > seen him for a brief moment (being turned by Darla) - his behaviour
> > since regaining his soul can't really be held as indicative of his
> > original personality (although his behaviour towards the end of S2
> > (post "Epiphanies") may be closer.
>
> Epiphany. Singular. He just had the one..
>
<snip Liam's motives>
> > His motives as a vampire were never
> > all that clear either - "Passion" seemed to indicate that he still had
> > some feelings towards Buffy (Lust, desire to possess her - not the
> > warm fuzzies), but the motives for the whole Acathla gig are never
> > really spelled out...
>
> Angelus has always been one for the dramatic, the stylish; 'Passion'
> shows us the dark and evil side of the character, yet also reveals the
> feelings he harbors. Indeed, no warm fuzzies there. Killing her isn't
> fun, you see, he learned that lesson early on:
>
> Recall the flashbacks in 'The Prodigal', where Angelus has just killed
> his entire family (we later learn he killed his entire village, give or
> take..that pretty much settles the 'are they evil from the get go or do
> they turn evil later' thing..), and Darla explains why he doesn't quite
> feel satisfied; the victory is only momentary. Angelus revels in doing
> harm, as is again witnessed by him driving Drusilla mad. For him, it's
> an art, there's the need for finesse, for subtlety. It's something he
> perfected over the years of his rampaging, even teaching it to some (re:
> Somnambulist), and falling on others' deaf ears (re: Spike in 'Fool for
> Love'..)
I'm not sure the "Are they evil from the get go..." is fully resolved
by this situation. Liam didn't particularly like the people around him
(and hated his father), so with no moral compass, it would be fairly
easy for him to be talked into killing them all as revenge. Darla
seems to hold a certain amount of influence over him...
>
<snip Angelus' motives as a vampire, which I agree with...>
>
> > It would certainly cut down on the work of the Slayer though... (or
> > would it make it more difficult - the lines become a lot more blurred
> > if all vampires have a soul - you're back in the real world where
> > "What crimes have they committed?" and "Are they geniunely remorseful
> > for what they've done and trying to atone?" become issues)
>
> Oh, it would make Buffy's life impossible. She can't even kill Spike
> because he has a chip in his head (that's the excuse, anyway..) Also,
> not really an easy option. Then again, neither is having one girl hang
> around to slay all the vampires, but hey...
>
The Spike situation has become a bit farcical - oh, he's helped them
out when they're in trouble (if there's something in it for him), and
theoretically, he's got the potential to be good (but, if he hasn't
got a soul, wouldn't he still be trying to cause as much suffering as
possible, even if he couldn't take an immediately active role in it?).
There doesn't actually appear to be all that much "demon" in Spike...
Regards
Rob
Mattia Valente
>
> Mattia Valente wrote:
> >
> > Rob Myall wrote:
> > > Mattia Valente wrote:
> > > > Rob Myall wrote:
> >
> > ROB!!! SPOILERS!!!!
> >
> > Same rules as in UMTB apply. NOTHING from S5 is free range just yet.
> > tss..they're minor spoilers, but they're there.
>
> Yeesh! Sorry about that... Obviously I wasn't thinking on Friday (I
> remember checking the stuff on Angel to make sure there wasn't
> anything spoilery there... completely forgetting the Spike
> references...)
Just don't do it again..
;-)
> And the translation of UMTB is eluding me...
uk.media.tv.buffy-v-slayer. The UK Buffy newsgroup (they've also got a
separate Angel one, the name's predictable.) Kinda busy, a little
spoilery at times (though not for people who are watching S5..)
> > Well, she was a good little catholic girl who was turned completely
> > insane. Now she's a vampire she's kept the insanity and gained a taste
> > for evil and mayhem as well. Not te good but crazy little girl she was
> > before.
>
> There's still elements of the little girl in her actions... But even
> before being turned, Angelus tried to make her believe she was evil -
> whether this worked or not is fairly redundant - presumably, once she
> was turned, there was no chance of her being saved and so she turned
> completely to evil - her belief in absolutes of good and evil gave her
> no choice in the matter...
Umm..right. The Demon took over and badness ensued. We saw a number of
short little scenes with a scared to death, crazy and blubbering
Drusilla pre-vamping early in Angel S2. My point was that Dru did indeed
keep a number of her personality traits (among other thing the insanity)
after she was turned.
> > Angelus has always been one for the dramatic, the stylish; 'Passion'
> > shows us the dark and evil side of the character, yet also reveals the
> > feelings he harbors. Indeed, no warm fuzzies there. Killing her isn't
> > fun, you see, he learned that lesson early on:
> >
> > Recall the flashbacks in 'The Prodigal', where Angelus has just killed
> > his entire family (we later learn he killed his entire village, give or
> > take..that pretty much settles the 'are they evil from the get go or do
> > they turn evil later' thing..), and Darla explains why he doesn't quite
> > feel satisfied; the victory is only momentary. Angelus revels in doing
> > harm, as is again witnessed by him driving Drusilla mad. For him, it's
> > an art, there's the need for finesse, for subtlety. It's something he
> > perfected over the years of his rampaging, even teaching it to some (re:
> > Somnambulist), and falling on others' deaf ears (re: Spike in 'Fool for
> > Love'..)
>
> I'm not sure the "Are they evil from the get go..." is fully resolved
> by this situation.
I think it's pretty implicit. They're resurrected by a demon, they crave
blood, they don't have any moral compunctions abour drinking any.
> Liam didn't particularly like the people around him
> (and hated his father), so with no moral compass, it would be fairly
> easy for him to be talked into killing them all as revenge. Darla
> seems to hold a certain amount of influence over him...
Well, he didn't hate the rest of his family. Just his father, really. We
can pretty safeley assume he didn't just kill everyone because he hated
them all before. As for Darla, yes, she quite definately had a formative
influence on him, although Angelus turned out to be far (and I mean FAR)
more powerful and truly evil than Darla ever managed in her long years
walking the earth.
Also, do recall that Darla didn't tell him to go off and kill everyone;
he did, she told him that wasn't truly victory (that whole spiel..)
Angelus was living the high life, a little spur of the moment, with a
little guidance from Darla.
> <snip Angelus' motives as a vampire, which I agree with...>
> > Oh, it would make Buffy's life impossible. She can't even kill Spike
> > because he has a chip in his head (that's the excuse, anyway..) Also,
> > not really an easy option. Then again, neither is having one girl hang
> > around to slay all the vampires, but hey...
>
> The Spike situation has become a bit farcical - oh, he's helped them
> out when they're in trouble (if there's something in it for him), and
Yes, in S4. In S5 it's gotten odder and odder..
> theoretically, he's got the potential to be good (but, if he hasn't
> got a soul, wouldn't he still be trying to cause as much suffering as
> possible, even if he couldn't take an immediately active role in it?).
> There doesn't actually appear to be all that much "demon" in Spike...
I think that's a dangerous way to go. Spike may say he wants to be good,
may try to be good, but once the chip is out, I'm not sure he would be
at all trustworthy anmore. He doesn't have a soul, no real moral
guidance (he knows what is morally right and wrong, but doesn't
particularly care. Unless it benefits him in some way. In S5 that's
emotionally.) You can't trust Spike all too much.
Mattia
--
"By the by, the answer to how I keep from losing it is I make sure to
paper the cracks in plumbing so the ooze from Saturn can't communicate
with my lungs anymore. Hmmm. I may be too late."
--Joss Whedon, Bronze Posting Board, 1998