Angel 3.10 Dad (SPOILERS)
P@rick
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Babies... I don't like 'em.
So small wonder the first ten minutes or so (could be more could be
less, it felt like hours) were a real trial for me. Not only was
everything revolving around the newlyborn, and not only did I have to
sit through Angel going all soft and focussed on his kid, the damned
thing just wouldn't stop crying! Why didn't I turn the sound off I
realise myself afterwards. It's not that the dialogue was much worth
listening to, let alone the very predicatble and childish (omg, Angel is
turning into a kids show!) jokes. They couldn't provoke a smile on my
face any more than Angel was able to stop Connor from crying. Come to
think of it, the episode only picked up after the crying stopped.
The first thing I liked in this episode was that only the funny Vampire
face was able to silence the bab.. Connor. I was almost waiting for
Connor to do the same in return. Now the next thing I'm hoping for is
that the kid ages one year a day until he's 18 or something. Last thing
I want is the Angel version of the Annoing One.
Another good thing was Holtz getting rid of those mercenaries (who were
snacking on fast food... *sigh*). I don't really get what he wants with
Justine. I mean, yeah okay she hates vampires with a vengeance. But
don't tell me that's enough these days to become an effective vampire
slayer. Gunn hated vampires too back in the days and still a big guy
like him needed an army to fight them. So I hope there's something more
driving Justine than just hate. Aren't vampires supposed to be really
fast and strong? No offence, but I can't see how a single woman who can
maybe do some fancy kicks is a match for god knows how many vampires
she's killed already.
The whole besieging of the hotel and the ensuing chase reminded me
strongly of the last couple of Buffy season 5 episodes. In fact, the
Scoobies could have told Lorne that it's no use trying to keep evil out
using a protection spell. Hiding in the place where everyone knows
you'll be hiding is just not a genious plan, period. Although in the end
it all worked out just fine. For the moment.
I really thought Angel was about to abandon his friends again. I wonder
how early the sharade started and who came up with this cunning plan. I
take it Gunn delivered the bomb alongside the rest of the weapons. But
Angel didn't specifically order it. And the scene he did outside with
Cordy wasn't meant to fool W&H. In the end it seemed all a bit easy for
me, but nice nonetheless. Maybe I was fooled by a plot device or
two (notice for instance how all attackers had proper transportation so
they could follow Angel into their own death) but I like to think that
it was all very logical.
I have a harder time believing that W&H will actually follow up on
Angel's threat and back off from Connor (and maybe even protect him).
And how come Angel knows his way into the W&H fortress better than a
hacker into a Trojan infected computer? W&H are beginning to look more
and more like a circus of amateur Evil Wannabees than a well organised
Evil Lawfirm from hell. And Linwood making funny faces to a tv-baby
doesn't help their image any better. Nor do Layla and Gavin playing
their continuous clown act. W&H have lost a lot of credibility ever
since mid-season two. The coolest thing about the whole firm at the
moment is their clerk in Files and Records ("it's my job"). And where
did the sneaky mailroom guy go?
I take it that flamethrowers will be part of the standard Fang Gang
equipment from now on since they proved to be very useful and efficient.
And I take it that they will make it a point to rid the hotel of nasty
W&H bugs ASAP.
They'll have to unroll the story a lot quicker than this to keep my
attention. And they *really* have to stop spending half the time
explaining Angel-background for those who just joined in. We already
*know* that Angel can turn Evil given the right stimuli. It has been
explained a thousand times already and shown twice!!!
Having said that, the ep didn't turn out as bad as I feared from the
first ten minutes. But I want more than a not-so-bad episode. They have
a lot of build-up and material to work with. It's time they really start
using it.
Bye, Patrick
Saskia
this episode. Whether it deserves it or not.
P@rick shared the following thoughts with us:
Actually, I just feel like bitching some more :) but I couldn't say that
above the spoiler space.
> Babies... I don't like 'em.
Me neither. Babies have no business on our shows...
> So small wonder the first ten minutes or so (could be more could be
> less, it felt like hours) were a real trial for me. Not only was
> everything revolving around the newlyborn, and not only did I have to
> sit through Angel going all soft and focussed on his kid, the damned
Well, I liked it at first, for about 5 minutes. But I really really have to
draw the line at Angel making silly faces. Puhlease...
> think of it, the episode only picked up after the crying stopped.
Unfortunately, for me, it didn't get much better after that.
> The first thing I liked in this episode was that only the funny Vampire
> face was able to silence the bab.. Connor. I was almost waiting for
> Connor to do the same in return.
This was the final drop and I would have been happy if someone had turned it
off :-( That was lame and predictable.
> Now the next thing I'm hoping for is
> that the kid ages one year a day until he's 18 or something.
Yes, that could work and might make things interesting again.
> Another good thing was Holtz getting rid of those mercenaries (who were
> snacking on fast food... *sigh*).
Yup.
> I don't really get what he wants with Justine.
Me neither. She only adds to the boreness of Holtz. Ugh.
> I really thought Angel was about to abandon his friends again. I wonder
> how early the sharade started and who came up with this cunning plan.
Yes, the cunning plan was about the only good thing about this episode...
> And how come Angel knows his way into the W&H fortress better than a
> hacker into a Trojan infected computer? W&H are beginning to look more
> and more like a circus of amateur Evil Wannabees than a well organised
> Evil Lawfirm from hell.
Exactly. They are becoming slightly ridiculous now. All those years hunting
Angel, all those files, all those people and demons and magick and they
*still* can't kill him? I was able to make it okay for myself by thinking
Angel probably has the universal protection of TPTB, but still... it's
getting thin.
Oh and I want Lindsey back!
Okay I'll stop now :)
--
Saskia
Niall Harrison
>> Babies... I don't like 'em.
>
> Me neither. Babies have no business on our shows...
It's another format shakeup, just like 'Reunion' and 'Epiphany' were. I'm
intrigued about how they're going to deal with it, myself.
>> So small wonder the first ten minutes or so (could be more could be
>> less, it felt like hours) were a real trial for me. Not only was
>> everything revolving around the newlyborn, and not only did I have to
>> sit through Angel going all soft and focussed on his kid, the damned
>
> Well, I liked it at first, for about 5 minutes. But I really really have to
> draw the line at Angel making silly faces. Puhlease...
Well, Angel going into game face was nicely creepy, if a little obvious.
But yes, the other faces were downright painful to watch.
>> Now the next thing I'm hoping for is
>> that the kid ages one year a day until he's 18 or something.
>
> Yes, that could work and might make things interesting again.
For some reason, I really don't want to see this. Not sure why.
>> Another good thing was Holtz getting rid of those mercenaries (who were
>> snacking on fast food... *sigh*).
>
> Yup.
OK, why the sigh for them eating fast food? And were you agreeing that it
was a good thing, or agreeing with the sigh?
>> I don't really get what he wants with Justine.
>
> Me neither.
Someone who believes in his cause?
>> And how come Angel knows his way into the W&H fortress better than a
>> hacker into a Trojan infected computer? W&H are beginning to look more
>> and more like a circus of amateur Evil Wannabees than a well organised
>> Evil Lawfirm from hell.
>
> Exactly. They are becoming slightly ridiculous now. All those years hunting
> Angel, all those files, all those people and demons and magick and they
> *still* can't kill him?
No, they can, probably very easily...but they don't want to. It's against
company policy. They know Angel is a major player, and they want him on
their side when the apocalypse comes.
In the meantime, individual lawyers are expendable.
> Oh and I want Lindsey back!
I don't. :-)
Niall
--
IRC killed the Usenet star.
Mattia Valente
Whoa! Niall!!
> </lurk>
Heh..
I dunno if I'd call it a true 'format shakeup'. But then, I'm not sure
that's what I'd call your other examples, necessarily. Turning point for
the season, sure. I'm not entirely sure I see the 'baby' thing working
out yet. I'll WAFO, though.
> > Well, I liked it at first, for about 5 minutes. But I really really have to
> > draw the line at Angel making silly faces. Puhlease...
>
> Well, Angel going into game face was nicely creepy, if a little obvious.
Creepy? Disturbing, perhaps. But yes, obvious. I was expecting it to
happen a whole lot sooner, actually.
> But yes, the other faces were downright painful to watch.
Yes. Don't ever do that again...brr...
> >> Now the next thing I'm hoping for is
> >> that the kid ages one year a day until he's 18 or something.
> >
> > Yes, that could work and might make things interesting again.
>
> For some reason, I really don't want to see this. Not sure why.
Because it's lame and introduces another fully grown character with no
social skills whatsoever (aka Anya..)? I dunno what I want to happen to
the kid. I do know that a season of 'let us protect the kid from all
these enemies' could get taxing, fast.
> >> Another good thing was Holtz getting rid of those mercenaries (who were
> >> snacking on fast food... *sigh*).
> >
> > Yup.
>
> OK, why the sigh for them eating fast food? And were you agreeing that it
> was a good thing, or agreeing with the sigh?
I'll take a stab at it: it was rather cheesy. It worked OK, not
stunningly well. I mean, we know baddies do Mickey D's (see Faith, Hope
and Trick..)
> >> I don't really get what he wants with Justine.
> >
> > Me neither.
>
> Someone who believes in his cause?
Someone who doesn't see shades of gray, more like it.
> >> And how come Angel knows his way into the W&H fortress better than a
> >> hacker into a Trojan infected computer? W&H are beginning to look more
> >> and more like a circus of amateur Evil Wannabees than a well organised
> >> Evil Lawfirm from hell.
> >
> > Exactly. They are becoming slightly ridiculous now. All those years hunting
> > Angel, all those files, all those people and demons and magick and they
> > *still* can't kill him?
>
> No, they can, probably very easily...but they don't want to. It's against
> company policy. They know Angel is a major player, and they want him on
> their side when the apocalypse comes.
Yes. Although their efforts in keeping him out are STILL downright
pathetic. Also, note how easily and quickly Angel managed to find the
correct boardroom. Their security sucks major league ass. Of coruse,
Angel's pretty much figured out they don't want him dead.
As to 'they want him on their side when the apocalypse comes'; they did
last season. Have they tried anything in that direction since then?
> In the meantime, individual lawyers are expendable.
Always have been.
> > Oh and I want Lindsey back!
>
> I don't. :-)
Yes, but you like change a lot. And killing off characters. And stuff.
You cold, callous man, you ;-P
Mattia
--
"My beagle went swimming today and now he's typing on my keyboard with
his ample nose. Oh, and he's the bestest handsomeest beagle EVER."
--Tim Minear, Salon.com, May 2001
Saskia
> </lurk>
Hey there! Don't I know you from somewhere? ;)
Why? What could a baby possibly bring but wet nappies, silly faces, silly
talk and distractions? I just can't see it.
> >> Now the next thing I'm hoping for is
> >> that the kid ages one year a day until he's 18 or something.
> >
> > Yes, that could work and might make things interesting again.
>
> For some reason, I really don't want to see this. Not sure why.
An older child could bring all sorts of potentially interesting storylines.
Can't think of any off the top of my hat but it should be more interesting
than a screaming baby.
> >> Another good thing was Holtz getting rid of those mercenaries (who were
> >> snacking on fast food... *sigh*).
> >
> > Yup.
>
> OK, why the sigh for them eating fast food? And were you agreeing that it
> was a good thing, or agreeing with the sigh?
I was agreeing with the fact that Holtz killed them off because they were
pretty redundant and I was agreeing with the sigh because fast food eating
demon mercenaries are boring and silly and because I don't like to see
people eating fast food when I don't have any.
> >> I don't really get what he wants with Justine.
> >
> > Me neither.
>
> Someone who believes in his cause?
I guess so. Maybe she comes in handy as backup and gopher but I think he
should be able to fend for himself.
[W&H]
> > Exactly. They are becoming slightly ridiculous now. All those years hunting
> > Angel, all those files, all those people and demons and magick and they
> > *still* can't kill him?
>
> No, they can, probably very easily...but they don't want to. It's against
> company policy. They know Angel is a major player, and they want him on
> their side when the apocalypse comes.
Okay you're right, I forgot about that for a moment, I was so getting into
starting to dislike everything.
> > Oh and I want Lindsey back!
>
> I don't. :-)
:-P
--
Saskia
Niall Harrison
> Niall Harrison wrote:
>
> Whoa! Niall!!
Yeah, I know. I don't intend to post much, though. Honest. If only
because news.ox only gets about half the posts from alt. groups...
I would. It changes the dynamic completely, I think.
> But then, I'm not sure
> that's what I'd call your other examples, necessarily. Turning point for
> the season, sure.
'Reunion' split up AI, and meant they had to do parallel-stories type
episodes. I'd call that a shift. 'Epiphany' not as major, but still
redefined the character relantionships.
> I'm not entirely sure I see the 'baby' thing working out yet. I'll
> WAFO, though.
Who knows? Maybe the next five episodes will suck. They'll certainly be
more Angel-lite, I would have thought. But then the baby will be gone
after ep 16, and things will take a turn for the dark...
>> > Well, I liked it at first, for about 5 minutes. But I really really have to
>> > draw the line at Angel making silly faces. Puhlease...
>>
>> Well, Angel going into game face was nicely creepy, if a little obvious.
>
> Creepy? Disturbing, perhaps.
Po-tay-to, po-tah-to...
>> >> Now the next thing I'm hoping for is
>> >> that the kid ages one year a day until he's 18 or something.
>> >
>> > Yes, that could work and might make things interesting again.
>>
>> For some reason, I really don't want to see this. Not sure why.
>
> Because it's lame and introduces another fully grown character with no
> social skills whatsoever (aka Anya..)?
That could be it. :-)
> I dunno what I want to happen to
> the kid. I do know that a season of 'let us protect the kid from all
> these enemies' could get taxing, fast.
"How do we integrate the kid into our demon-slaying lives" has potential,
though. After all, they've gotten rid of most of the enemies.
>> >> I don't really get what he wants with Justine.
>> >
>> > Me neither.
>>
>> Someone who believes in his cause?
>
> Someone who doesn't see shades of gray, more like it.
That too.
>> > Exactly. They are becoming slightly ridiculous now. All those years hunting
>> > Angel, all those files, all those people and demons and magick and they
>> > *still* can't kill him?
>>
>> No, they can, probably very easily...but they don't want to. It's against
>> company policy. They know Angel is a major player, and they want him on
>> their side when the apocalypse comes.
>
> Yes. Although their efforts in keeping him out are STILL downright
> pathetic. Also, note how easily and quickly Angel managed to find the
> correct boardroom. Their security sucks major league ass.
That's the bigger problem. They may not want Angel dead, but they should
be able to contain him better.
> As to 'they want him on their side when the apocalypse comes'; they did
> last season. Have they tried anything in that direction since then?
Well, no. They're just trying to contain him now. But I expect that
there'll be more moves in that direction in subsequent seasons.
Here's a challenge: Find a metaphor to bring Angelus back with.
>> > Oh and I want Lindsey back!
>>
>> I don't. :-)
>
> Yes, but you like change a lot. And killing off characters. And stuff.
> You cold, callous man, you ;-P
Damn straight.
Niall
--
And through the seasons I have journeyed
Without a clue to where I'm bound.
Mattia Valente
This could be problematic..
> So small wonder the first ten minutes or so (could be more could be
> less, it felt like hours) were a real trial for me. Not only was
> everything revolving around the newlyborn, and not only did I have to
> sit through Angel going all soft and focussed on his kid, the damned
> thing just wouldn't stop crying! Why didn't I turn the sound off I
> realise myself afterwards. It's not that the dialogue was much worth
> listening to, let alone the very predicatble and childish (omg, Angel is
> turning into a kids show!) jokes. They couldn't provoke a smile on my
> face any more than Angel was able to stop Connor from crying. Come to
> think of it, the episode only picked up after the crying stopped.
To be fair, I doubt that the vast majority of this stuff was played for
laughs; pretty straight delivery on it all. Countering that, of course,
is the fact that it was rather, well, uninteresting. And mildly annoying
to have Angel regress and not let anyone in and help, yadda yadda yadda.
And Cordy's (retroactively explicable) slightly 'soft' behaviour didn't
help much. Angel didn't need 'kid gloves' treatment, he needed to be
shaken up. Which, as it turns out, is what happened.
> The first thing I liked in this episode was that only the funny Vampire
> face was able to silence the bab.. Connor.
Mwah. Predictable. And too much talking in Vamp Face. No more 'funny
faces' from DB, please. Ever.
> I was almost waiting for
> Connor to do the same in return. Now the next thing I'm hoping for is
> that the kid ages one year a day until he's 18 or something. Last thing
> I want is the Angel version of the Annoing One.
Pffff......he's too young to be 'the annoying one'. But we are gonna
need a 'solution' to this 'problem'; we haven't done anything beyond
killing some of the baddies chasing the baby and threaten W&H. And if
they fall for the threats, well, then they suck donkey balls.
> Another good thing was Holtz getting rid of those mercenaries (who were
> snacking on fast food... *sigh*). I don't really get what he wants with
> Justine. I mean, yeah okay she hates vampires with a vengeance. But
> don't tell me that's enough these days to become an effective vampire
> slayer.
I don't know that she is effective. She's rather aimless and
ineffectual. Then again, Holtz may be looking for like minded (ie,
black/white thinking, don't get too complex, because that would be silly
and non-cool..) people. Ones that go 'Vampires Evil'. Ones that have
lost family to them. I'm not entirely sure what he wants with her,
though.
> Gunn hated vampires too back in the days and still a big guy
> like him needed an army to fight them.
So maybe Holtz is building up his own little army again? He never went
after Angel alone in the old days..
> So I hope there's something more
> driving Justine than just hate. Aren't vampires supposed to be really
> fast and strong? No offence, but I can't see how a single woman who can
> maybe do some fancy kicks is a match for god knows how many vampires
> she's killed already.
Well, she's been out and about. But how many has she killed? Who knows.
Also, some vamps suck ass at fighting. Plus, they don't expect
resistance. But we'll have to wait and see..
> The whole besieging of the hotel and the ensuing chase reminded me
> strongly of the last couple of Buffy season 5 episodes. In fact, the
> Scoobies could have told Lorne that it's no use trying to keep evil out
> using a protection spell.
With the major difference being that the scoobs let Glory in (as Ben),
she didn't need to break through.
> Hiding in the place where everyone knows
> you'll be hiding is just not a genious plan, period. Although in the end
> it all worked out just fine. For the moment.
Well, quite. It ended up being a good bit more intelligent than it
seemed. Because of the doubletake deal. It was sorta 'Enemies' (And lots
of other shows..) like in that respect.
> I really thought Angel was about to abandon his friends again. I wonder
> how early the sharade started and who came up with this cunning plan. I
> take it Gunn delivered the bomb alongside the rest of the weapons. But
> Angel didn't specifically order it. And the scene he did outside with
> Cordy wasn't meant to fool W&H. In the end it seemed all a bit easy for
> me, but nice nonetheless.
Well, quite. Rewatch is in order. Lorne figured it out. Slipped Angel
the note. He read it in the Janitor's closet. Rest goes on from there.
Where Gunn and the bomb come in, I'm not sure. Then again, maybe they
have explosives lying around for fun.
> Maybe I was fooled by a plot device or
> two (notice for instance how all attackers had proper transportation so
> they could follow Angel into their own death) but I like to think that
> it was all very logical.
Well, only sort of logical.
> I have a harder time believing that W&H will actually follow up on
> Angel's threat and back off from Connor (and maybe even protect him).
If they start doing that, I'll be very annoyed.
> And how come Angel knows his way into the W&H fortress better than a
> hacker into a Trojan infected computer? W&H are beginning to look more
> and more like a circus of amateur Evil Wannabees than a well organised
> Evil Lawfirm from hell.
They're an Evil Lawfirm from Earth, remember? Or possibly Muppets.
> And Linwood making funny faces to a tv-baby
> doesn't help their image any better. Nor do Layla and Gavin playing
> their continuous clown act.
'Clown Act'?
Nah, I like Lilah. Gavin needs a bit more dimensionality (we haven't
really learned a whole lot about him beyond 'he is ambitious',
really..), but he's a fun foil. Linwood (if that's his name..) is a
little too lacking in oomph. And it's not because Maclolm McDowell can't
act (that is Malcolm McDowell, right?)
> W&H have lost a lot of credibility ever
> since mid-season two. The coolest thing about the whole firm at the
> moment is their clerk in Files and Records ("it's my job"). And where
> did the sneaky mailroom guy go?
Who knows. In fact, who cares?
> I take it that flamethrowers will be part of the standard Fang Gang
> equipment from now on since they proved to be very useful and efficient.
Only if your enemies all come in through the front door and wait
patiently to be toasted.
> And I take it that they will make it a point to rid the hotel of nasty
> W&H bugs ASAP.
Well, quite. They know they're being watched, and they know W&H know.
> They'll have to unroll the story a lot quicker than this to keep my
> attention. And they *really* have to stop spending half the time
> explaining Angel-background for those who just joined in.
Uh, when did that happen?
> We already
> *know* that Angel can turn Evil given the right stimuli. It has been
> explained a thousand times already and shown twice!!!
Heh...
Mattia Valente
>
> Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
> > Niall Harrison wrote:
> >
> > Whoa! Niall!!
>
> Yeah, I know. I don't intend to post much, though. Honest. If only
> because news.ox only gets about half the posts from alt. groups...
Uhuh. Well, since it's not like that much goes on here (mostly..),
that's just fine.
That depends on where they take it.
> > But then, I'm not sure
> > that's what I'd call your other examples, necessarily. Turning point for
> > the season, sure.
>
> 'Reunion' split up AI, and meant they had to do parallel-stories type
> episodes. I'd call that a shift.
Well, okay. I'd also call them rather lame and filler-y. Although
redefinition wasn't really that big a 'shift'.
> 'Epiphany' not as major, but still
> redefined the character relantionships.
Well, it brought the team back together. Pylea was a format shift, a
good continuation of themes started early in the season, but format?
Very, very different. I guess it's what you want to call a 'format',
really..
> > I'm not entirely sure I see the 'baby' thing working out yet. I'll
> > WAFO, though.
>
> Who knows? Maybe the next five episodes will suck.
Maybe. Hope not, though.
> They'll certainly be more Angel-lite, I would have thought.
That's sort of what I'm 'afraid' of. Angel-lite could be good, but could
be really, really bad. I'm wondering what a) Holtz is up to and b) What
W&H are going to do, and finally c) what of the people chasing the baby?
Methinks they're not all dead or defeated. That's enough to make it not
too 'lite'.
> But then the baby will be gone
> after ep 16, and things will take a turn for the dark...
Ah, yes, you've got that all figured out, right? Baby gets gone by ep 16
(dead or otherwise) and we move on again?
> > Creepy? Disturbing, perhaps.
>
> Po-tay-to, po-tah-to...
Fair 'nuff.
> >> >> Now the next thing I'm hoping for is
> >> >> that the kid ages one year a day until he's 18 or something.
> >> >
> >> > Yes, that could work and might make things interesting again.
> >>
> >> For some reason, I really don't want to see this. Not sure why.
> >
> > Because it's lame and introduces another fully grown character with no
> > social skills whatsoever (aka Anya..)?
>
> That could be it. :-)
Just saying, y'know..
'Cast Bloat'
> > I dunno what I want to happen to
> > the kid. I do know that a season of 'let us protect the kid from all
> > these enemies' could get taxing, fast.
>
> "How do we integrate the kid into our demon-slaying lives" has potential,
> though. After all, they've gotten rid of most of the enemies.
That's the question. Were these cults so small, then? And have we dealt
with all of them? Oh, and are they ever going to work a case again? A
paying one, I mean.
> >> >> I don't really get what he wants with Justine.
> >> >
> >> > Me neither.
> >>
> >> Someone who believes in his cause?
> >
> > Someone who doesn't see shades of gray, more like it.
>
> That too.
Check.
> >> > Exactly. They are becoming slightly ridiculous now. All those years hunting
> >> > Angel, all those files, all those people and demons and magick and they
> >> > *still* can't kill him?
> >>
> >> No, they can, probably very easily...but they don't want to. It's against
> >> company policy. They know Angel is a major player, and they want him on
> >> their side when the apocalypse comes.
> >
> > Yes. Although their efforts in keeping him out are STILL downright
> > pathetic. Also, note how easily and quickly Angel managed to find the
> > correct boardroom. Their security sucks major league ass.
>
> That's the bigger problem. They may not want Angel dead, but they should
> be able to contain him better.
So, still a bit too muppetish for your tastes?
> > As to 'they want him on their side when the apocalypse comes'; they did
> > last season. Have they tried anything in that direction since then?
>
> Well, no. They're just trying to contain him now. But I expect that
> there'll be more moves in that direction in subsequent seasons.
They're just interested in the baby right now. I miss someone with the
quiet, easy menace that Holland possesed. Someone that gave you the
impression that they were in control and knew where things were heading.
Right now, I'm getting a 'meandering' vibe from them.
> Here's a challenge: Find a metaphor to bring Angelus back with.
Do we really want that? Could be cool. He could kill off some
characters. Like Wesley <obvious bait to see if nat and/or sue are
reading..>
> >> > Oh and I want Lindsey back!
> >>
> >> I don't. :-)
> >
> > Yes, but you like change a lot. And killing off characters. And stuff.
> > You cold, callous man, you ;-P
>
> Damn straight.
Not that you're wrong, mind you..
Niall Harrison
>> driving Justine than just hate. Aren't vampires supposed to be really
>> fast and strong? No offence, but I can't see how a single woman who can
>> maybe do some fancy kicks is a match for god knows how many vampires
>> she's killed already.
>
> Well, she's been out and about. But how many has she killed? Who knows.
Presumably she killed one every time she encountered one. Otherwise,
well, she'd be dead.
> Also, some vamps suck ass at fighting.
I'd go so far as to say that *most* vamps suck at fighting, particularly
when newly risen. They're crazy with the bloodlust; it's only if they
survive for a while that they become seriously dangerous. Before that,
they're basically wild animals.
>> Hiding in the place where everyone knows
>> you'll be hiding is just not a genious plan, period. Although in the end
>> it all worked out just fine. For the moment.
>
> Well, quite. It ended up being a good bit more intelligent than it
> seemed. Because of the doubletake deal. It was sorta 'Enemies' (And lots
> of other shows..) like in that respect.
I was hugely impressed by this aspect of the episode because, unlike
'Enemies', it didn't cheat. Everything we needed to figure out what was
going on was there in plain sight; the hum, the note, the reference to the
janitor's closet. Very well done.
>> I have a harder time believing that W&H will actually follow up on
>> Angel's threat and back off from Connor (and maybe even protect him).
>
> If they start doing that, I'll be very annoyed.
Why? Linwood could very well do exactly that, because he's afraid of
Angel.
If anyone higher up than Linwood finds out what he's doing however, then
there could be a problem for him. :-)
Niall
--
You've got to make the most of today
For beauty dies young.
Mattia Valente
True..
> > Also, some vamps suck ass at fighting.
>
> I'd go so far as to say that *most* vamps suck at fighting, particularly
> when newly risen. They're crazy with the bloodlust; it's only if they
> survive for a while that they become seriously dangerous. Before that,
> they're basically wild animals.
Also very true. And considering she's out prowling graveyards, well...
> > Well, quite. It ended up being a good bit more intelligent than it
> > seemed. Because of the doubletake deal. It was sorta 'Enemies' (And lots
> > of other shows..) like in that respect.
>
> I was hugely impressed by this aspect of the episode because, unlike
> 'Enemies', it didn't cheat.
Well, 'cheat' is your opinion of it. You weren't meant to figure it out
in 'Enemies'. But it was more impressive because you could've, I guess.
> Everything we needed to figure out what was
> going on was there in plain sight; the hum, the note, the reference to the
> janitor's closet. Very well done.
The hum was something I was going 'come ON, figure it OUT!!' at as soon
as it was mentioned. Happily, he did. I missed the note, the Janitor's
closet thing was weird, in retrospect dead obvious, but I didn't see the
note passing. Oh, and the baby? Possibly in room 312 the whole time ;-)
> >> I have a harder time believing that W&H will actually follow up on
> >> Angel's threat and back off from Connor (and maybe even protect him).
> >
> > If they start doing that, I'll be very annoyed.
>
> Why? Linwood could very well do exactly that, because he's afraid of
> Angel.
Yes. But Linwood <> W&H.
> If anyone higher up than Linwood finds out what he's doing however, then
> there could be a problem for him. :-)
Well, quite. It would be a nice opportunity for backstabbing and
promotions as far as Lilah and Gavin are concerned..
Niall Harrison
>> survive for a while that they become seriously dangerous. Before that,
>> they're basically wild animals.
>
> Also very true. And considering she's out prowling graveyards, well...
I don't know that she normally prowls graveyards; that could just have
been where Holtz took her.
>> > Well, quite. It ended up being a good bit more intelligent than it
>> > seemed. Because of the doubletake deal. It was sorta 'Enemies' (And lots
>> > of other shows..) like in that respect.
>>
>> I was hugely impressed by this aspect of the episode because, unlike
>> 'Enemies', it didn't cheat.
>
> Well, 'cheat' is your opinion of it. You weren't meant to figure it out
> in 'Enemies'.
And they had to go to rather extraordinary lengths to make sure that was
the case. And the sorcerer who just happened to turn out to be Giles'
friend was a touch too convenient for my tastes.
> But it was more impressive because you could've, I guess.
Absolutely.
>> >> I have a harder time believing that W&H will actually follow up on
>> >> Angel's threat and back off from Connor (and maybe even protect him).
>> >
>> > If they start doing that, I'll be very annoyed.
>>
>> Why? Linwood could very well do exactly that, because he's afraid of
>> Angel.
>
> Yes. But Linwood <> W&H.
And...what?
>> If anyone higher up than Linwood finds out what he's doing however,then
>> there could be a problem for him. :-)
>
> Well, quite. It would be a nice opportunity for backstabbing and
> promotions as far as Lilah and Gavin are concerned..
Exactly.
Look, I don't think "Wolfram and Hart" would ever condone that sort of
protection of Angel's son. But I think it's completely plausible that
*Linwood* would, to save his own skin.
Niall
--
It felt just like it was the start of forever.
Mattia Valente
We don't know it. But, well, it seems a rather 'simple' place to find
Vampires. Easy selection, like. So you're not fighting muggers.
> >> I was hugely impressed by this aspect of the episode because, unlike
> >> 'Enemies', it didn't cheat.
> >
> > Well, 'cheat' is your opinion of it. You weren't meant to figure it out
> > in 'Enemies'.
>
> And they had to go to rather extraordinary lengths to make sure that was
> the case. And the sorcerer who just happened to turn out to be Giles'
> friend was a touch too convenient for my tastes.
Well, it didn't bother me much. And still doesn't. Then again, I can't
say that 'Enemies' makes my 'favorite episodes' list or anything...
> > But it was more impressive because you could've, I guess.
>
> Absolutely.
Check. Note to self: rewatch soon.
> >> Why? Linwood could very well do exactly that, because he's afraid of
> >> Angel.
> >
> > Yes. But Linwood <> W&H.
>
> And...what?
What you said later. Sheesh..
;-P
> >> If anyone higher up than Linwood finds out what he's doing however,then
> >> there could be a problem for him. :-)
> >
> > Well, quite. It would be a nice opportunity for backstabbing and
> > promotions as far as Lilah and Gavin are concerned..
>
> Exactly.
This. Anyway...
> Look, I don't think "Wolfram and Hart" would ever condone that sort of
> protection of Angel's son. But I think it's completely plausible that
> *Linwood* would, to save his own skin.
..which might end up getting him very, very dead. Hmm. These head honcho
guys never seem to last very long, do they?
Stephen Walker
"P@rick" <pat...@nksf.VampWillow.nl> wrote in message
news:MPG.1683345a5...@news.xs4all.nl...
Wow, you liked it that much? 10 minutes in and I was about ready to pull a
Darla and stake myself.
>
> The first thing I liked in this episode was that only the funny Vampire
> face was able to silence the bab.. Connor. I was almost waiting for
> Connor to do the same in return. Now the next thing I'm hoping for is
> that the kid ages one year a day until he's 18 or something. Last thing
> I want is the Angel version of the Annoing One.
Get him to 16 by February sweeps and see what effect he has on mystical
green glowy energy people?
>
> Another good thing was Holtz getting rid of those mercenaries (who were
> snacking on fast food... *sigh*). I don't really get what he wants with
> Justine. I mean, yeah okay she hates vampires with a vengeance. But
> don't tell me that's enough these days to become an effective vampire
> slayer. Gunn hated vampires too back in the days and still a big guy
> like him needed an army to fight them. So I hope there's something more
> driving Justine than just hate. Aren't vampires supposed to be really
> fast and strong? No offence, but I can't see how a single woman who can
> maybe do some fancy kicks is a match for god knows how many vampires
> she's killed already.
This gave me the only chuckle of the episode - the thought of all the crazy
"new slayer" theories on the alt groups.
>
<snip some stuff>
>
Unfortunately the beginning put me off the episode, and I had a phone call
part way through. Saying much more about it would require watching it again,
and I don't think I can be bothered.
Roll on next time, let's hope it is better.
Stephen
Saskia
> Unfortunately the beginning put me off the episode, and I had a phone call
> part way through. Saying much more about it would require watching it again,
> and I don't think I can be bothered.
> Roll on next time, let's hope it is better.
And I'm extra disappointed because I was so hoping for a nice mysterious,
mystical, magical, X-mas episode... guess they don't do 'nice' anymore at
Angel's :-(
--
Saskia
But I did remember the one funny Cordy quote although in my memory it was
funnier:
Gunn: (preparing for the assault) What are you doing?
Wesley: Trying to imagine myself as John Wayne in Rio Bravo. You?
Gunn: Austin Stoker. Assault on Precinct 13. (they high five)
Cordelia: If we live through this, trade in the DVD players and get a life.
Stephen Walker
"Saskia" <sas...@nksf.nl> wrote in message
news:MPG.168989905...@newszilla.xs4all.nl...
> Wesley: Trying to imagine myself as John Wayne in Rio Bravo. You?
> Gunn: Austin Stoker. Assault on Precinct 13. (they high five)
> Cordelia: If we live through this, trade in the DVD players and get a
life.
>
Gunn must have seen that a long time ago, seeing he hasn't bothered to see a
movie since Denzel was robbed at the Oscars for Malcom X
Stephen
busybee
"Stephen Walker" <srwa...@hotPOTATOmail.com> a écrit ...
> Wow, you liked it that much? 10 minutes in and I was about ready to pull a
> Darla and stake myself.
will remember "to pull a darla", felt the same... impressions were: oh no,
angel is becoming a sitcom? where's the dark side?
> >
> > The first thing I liked in this episode was that only the funny Vampire
> > face was able to silence the bab.. Connor. I was almost waiting for
> > Connor to do the same in return. Now the next thing I'm hoping for is
> > that the kid ages one year a day until he's 18 or something. Last thing
> > I want is the Angel version of the Annoing One.
lol
connor, and i thought.... again? of mcleod fame :)
anyway, i began to suspect the baby would stop crying if angel vamped his
face, and was satisfied. wonder if baby is really human after all?.... also
thought: he won't drink that milk, try giving him some blood from the
fridge...
>
c ya
busybee