Angel 4x13
Saskia
of 4x13.... fortunately the right one came in in time to watch :)
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The bitch is really gone. Awww!
The über-being turns out to be an überbitch. Yay!
The real bitch is back. Ewww!
I think I'm actually glad I got spoiled (ssht) for Faith's return. At
least I've had time to get used to the idea. But I still hate her guts so
I'm not happy. Although I have to admit she probably was the coolest one
around... <sigh>
Glad the beast is gone, he was getting old. Now can we get rid of Angelus?
He's getting stale.
Overall, nice eppy.
--
Saskia
"Why is it, every time I go somewhere with you, it always ends in violence
and terror?"
Dave Emberton
news:cernmd2kaprh$.y6mnu6vqnf9n.dlg@40tude.net...
What is it with Angel and killing of the best characters? They did it in S1
with Doyle, and now they've gone and done it again.
> The über-being turns out to be an überbitch. Yay!
> The real bitch is back. Ewww!
>
> I think I'm actually glad I got spoiled (ssht) for Faith's return. At
> least I've had time to get used to the idea. But I still hate her guts so
> I'm not happy. Although I have to admit she probably was the coolest one
> around... <sigh>
Well the "Guest Staring" credit at the start would have given it away
anyway.
I've never been the biggest Faith fan, but she was pretty cool here. And it
seems her few years of jail have removed some of her cockiness, and it was
that that made her irritating. So yaay!
> Glad the beast is gone, he was getting old. Now can we get rid of Angelus?
> He's getting stale.
>
> Overall, nice eppy.
Another damn good episode. What has happened to this series? It's got so
good.
Dave
Mark Scott-Simons
wrote:
Bugger :-(
>Glad the beast is gone, he was getting old. Now can we get rid of Angelus?
First can we get rid of Conner.
>He's getting stale.
Scotty
Niall Harrison
I must be the only fan in the world that didn't love Lilah. She was fun,
sure, but she wasn't a patch on Lindsey. Or even Gavin, really. We never
did see as much of him as I would have liked..
> What has happened to this series? It's got so good.
It's not the series that's changed, it's you, brother! You have SEEN THE
LIGHT and now you are ONE OF US! HALLELUJAH!
(Yeah, it's kinda cultish.)
Niall
--
When memes collide.
Mattia Valente
WOO!!
> I think I'm actually glad I got spoiled (ssht) for Faith's return. At
> least I've had time to get used to the idea. But I still hate her guts so
> I'm not happy. Although I have to admit she probably was the coolest one
> around... <sigh>
She rocked. And she doesn't have the attitude that you hate her for any
more, Sas. Get over it :-p
> Glad the beast is gone, he was getting old. Now can we get rid of Angelus?
> He's getting stale.
Uh, no he's not. He's doing just fine right now. I don't suspect it'll
be long, though, although Niall's bet that Angel would get his soul back
in the ep the sun showed up again didn't come true. Too cliche'd, I
guess ;-)
> Overall, nice eppy.
Yeppers.
Mattia
--
"NUDITY, NUDITY, NUDITY." - Joss Whedon on S5
Mattia Valente
See, Gavin could've been interesting. But never was. Lilah quite rocked.
>>What has happened to this series? It's got so good.
>
> It's not the series that's changed, it's you, brother! You have SEEN THE
> LIGHT and now you are ONE OF US! HALLELUJAH!
>
> (Yeah, it's kinda cultish.)
Just a tiny weensy bit, yeah.
But, well, a couple of thoughts: RAWK!
This is most cool. Faith is, frankly, very interesting to watch, and
Jail has changed her for the better. I'm really getting intruiged by
this whole deal with who's controlling what and how, though.
Is the First involved? Possibly, I'd say. The bringers were after Faith
in jail, is what I gather from the Knife Issue (all these meaningful
knives, I tells ya), but the who and the how and the what is confusing.
Want more info on the Cordy Thing.
But, well, this ep rocks. Including cool Angelusness.
Also: "Like riding a biker". Tee hee.
Jonathan Dupont
Nah, she was getting tired and for me that was only confirmed by the
Six Feet Under bit. Lindsey was always way better.
> > The über-being turns out to be an überbitch. Yay!
Although I was very, very unimpressed with CC's evil acting.
> > The real bitch is back. Ewww!
> >
> > I think I'm actually glad I got spoiled (ssht) for Faith's return. At
> > least I've had time to get used to the idea. But I still hate her guts so
> > I'm not happy. Although I have to admit she probably was the coolest one
> > around... <sigh>
>
> Well the "Guest Staring" credit at the start would have given it away
> anyway.
>
> I've never been the biggest Faith fan, but she was pretty cool here. And it
> seems her few years of jail have removed some of her cockiness, and it was
> that that made her irritating. So yaay!
I love Faith, although similar to Angelus I don't think she was as
good as she has been. OTOH she was much more close than I was hoping.
> > Glad the beast is gone, he was getting old. Now can we get rid of Angelus?
> > He's getting stale.
I liked the Beast, and can't say I'm too happy with the way the
epic-ness has been downgraded into a Angel family affair. As for
Angelus, no way do I want Angel back. For a start, he hasn't done
anything yet!
> > Overall, nice eppy.
> Another damn good episode. What has happened to this series? It's got so
> good.
>
> Dave
Excellent stuff. Good fights (I'm sorry - I like the slow motion
stuff), good dialouge ("Like riding a biker"), and two crossovers with
Buffy. I am very stupid - I didn't realise until I read it on AICN
that it was a Bringer minion trying to kill Faith in the jail.
Jon
dieter
news:3E65FE1A...@std.vu.nl:
> But, well, a couple of thoughts: RAWK!
Rawk indeed!
> This is most cool. Faith is, frankly, very interesting to watch, and
> Jail has changed her for the better. I'm really getting intruiged by
> this whole deal with who's controlling what and how, though.
I was spoiled for the whole Faith return, but I do love her so. And
Angelus calling Sunnydale was priceless..."...it's the other one.."
> Is the First involved? Possibly, I'd say. The bringers were after
> Faith in jail, is what I gather from the Knife Issue (all these
> meaningful knives, I tells ya), but the who and the how and the what
> is confusing. Want more info on the Cordy Thing.
It seems that the BigBad is just that. THE BigBad. No different beasties
between LA and Sunnydale.
> But, well, this ep rocks. Including cool Angelusness.
It was very , very good, as is this entire season of Angel. I've always
considered Buffy to be "my" show and Angel something very good on the
side. But this is the first time that I actually feel that Angel, at the
moment, is the better show of the two.
> Also: "Like riding a biker". Tee hee.
Classic.
Niall Harrison
> Mattia Valente <mae.v...@std.vu.nl> wrote in
> news:3E65FE1A...@std.vu.nl:
>>>>>s
> It was very , very good, as is this entire season of Angel.
I just can't get my head around the fact that it's only episode thirteen
and *so much* has happened. The plotting this season is just stunning.
Slight wobbles in character and theme sure, but the plotting is *damn*
impressive.
Niall
--
Verbing weirds language.
Mattia Valente
Even more so because, frankly, I don't think it really got
started/kicked in all that well until after 'Spin the Bottle', arguably
until after 'Rain of Fire'.
Niall Harrison
I'll tell you what it is for me: Effectively, we haven't had a break
between sweeps periods. Everything since 'Rain of Fire' has been
no-holds-barred killer-twisty arc goodness. We haven't had the usual
situation of getting to eps 11 and 12 and knowing we're just sitting
around waiting for sweeps to happen again. Heck, we've only just got to
the episodes originally planned for february sweeps ('cause let's face it,
that's what the Faith episodes are).
Gunnar Harboe
Heh. This is clearly one of these "New Deals" that 'Angel' goes through
every half-season or so. Though I don't suppose this one will last till
the end of S4.
Someone's been watching 'Six Feet Under' (now back in its third season,
woo-hoo!)...
I see many people find Faith "less annoying". I'd have to go with "more
bland". Her schtick was always to be the bad girl around the innocents,
and that isn't going to work on 'Angel' (or even on 'Buffy', if she
makes the jump).
Cordy in pregnancy shocker! Angel inc. aren't the most observant people,
are they? I'm slowly becoming convinced that The Master isn't Cordy, but
the "life growing inside her". IOW she's under its control. Kinda like
the last time she became pregnant.
I can see why they now show audiences more clearly that Cordy's evil,
but you'd think she'd still want to hide it from the other characters.
She seemed to be one step away from going BWAHAHAHA! EVERYTHING IS
PROCEEDING ACCORDING TO MY EVIL PLAN!
Disappointed that Wes didn't realise something wasn't right with the
marks on Lilah. Spending so much time staring at her corpse, and it's
not like he hasn't seen vampire bites before.
Overall, it's an OK episode, but it clearly gives the impression that
'Angel' has peaked for the season.
Dave Emberton
news:3E65FE1A...@std.vu.nl...
It did occur to me watching Wesley talking to a dead Lilah that it could
have been The First rather than just him imagining it. Maybe he thought he
was imagining it and it really was The First? No, I don't think so either.
> Want more info on the Cordy Thing.
Is Cordy The First? There's the whole touching things issue, but personally
I wonder if that's going to turn out to be a bit of a red herring (which
brings up the question of Giles again).
Dave
dieter
news:Xns9335A8607C...@140.99.99.130:
>> But, well, this ep rocks. Including cool Angelusness.
A relatively minor thing is bugging me though. They don't show Angelus
killing any humans at all. He does have the intention, true, but it's
foiled everytime. Now, I'm not rooting for a slaughterfest, but his
total, and visible disregard for human life made him that more scary in
S2
Dave Emberton
news:10468556...@urchin.earth.li...
Every good series needs a female baddy: Serverlan, Callisto and Glory all
spring to mind. Or maybe it's just me?
> > What has happened to this series? It's got so good.
>
> It's not the series that's changed, it's you, brother! You have SEEN THE
> LIGHT and now you are ONE OF US! HALLELUJAH!
Nah, I'm pretty sure I'd still find S2 deadly dull, and the Holtz stuff in
S3 deadly duller. It was getting good at about the time Connor appeared in
S3, then S4 started reasonably okay, and then Rain of Fire and whooosh!
Dave
Niall Harrison
> It did occur to me watching Wesley talking to a dead Lilah that it could
> have been The First rather than just him imagining it. Maybe he thought he
> was imagining it and it really was The First? No, I don't think so either.
Me either, but as time goes on I think I'm getting more of a handle on
what _Angel_ is doing this season. It's playing with the difference
between perception and reality. There have been a *lot* of dream and
fantasy sequences, obviously, but also all the characters have been forced
to face up to their perceptions of each other.
Niall Harrison
>>>>>>Argh, this afternoon I wasn't paying attention and downloaded 4x12
I'm of two minds about this.
On the one hand, it could be that they just don't want to show Angel
killing anyone. If that's the case, it's regrettable, but I understand the
sentiment.
On the other hand, I keep getting this nagging feeling that we're being
set up. That in an episode or two, he's going to do something *major*, and
it's going to be all the more shocking because we thought the writers
weren't going to let him do that.
So I guess even if that turns out not to happen, they're doing a good job
with the writing anyway - for me, the sense of danger is still there.
Niall
--
Another casualty of applied metaphysics.
pikelet
Harboe <gh...@cam.ac.uk> is twanging, all Hoob-like, at me. I calmly
say:
>Disappointed that Wes didn't realise something wasn't right with the
>marks on Lilah. Spending so much time staring at her corpse, and it's
>not like he hasn't seen vampire bites before.
What marks? You mean the ones where Angelus had bitten at the knife
wound in her throat?
And anyway, Angelus has a particularly notorious MO. It's not unlikely
that Wesley would assume Angelus had a 'thing' for really making a
mess of the neck area - assuming, of course, that once Angelus had
finished with her body that it looked any different from any other
vampire-ravaged corpse.
>Overall, it's an OK episode, but it clearly gives the impression that
>'Angel' has peaked for the season.
*blinks*
Okay, this episode was fantastic. Well, in my opinion anyway.
The bit I'm choosing to pick up on here, though, isn't our relative
gradings of the episode overall, but rather on how you get to see a
good episode and conclude from that that it's downhill for the season
from here on in? Because that's at least implicit in what you're
saying.
Tim
dieter
>> but his total, and visible disregard for human life made him that
>> more scary in S2
>
> I'm of two minds about this.
>
> On the one hand, it could be that they just don't want to show Angel
> killing anyone. If that's the case, it's regrettable, but I understand
> the sentiment.
I'm leaning towards this possibility myself. They could when he was a
supporting actor in Buffy, but this is his show, he's the hero, the
champion. (Lame but clear example: like when Schwarzenegger couldn't kill
innocent humans anymore once he played a few hero-parts after the first
Terminator)
> On the other hand, I keep getting this nagging feeling that we're
> being set up. That in an episode or two, he's going to do something
> *major*, and it's going to be all the more shocking because we thought
> the writers weren't going to let him do that.
I'm hoping this will be the case, we'll see :)
> So I guess even if that turns out not to happen, they're doing a good
> job with the writing anyway - for me, the sense of danger is still
> there.
Very true and I'm loving it (it could just be a tad more intense if he
pulled a Jenny Calendar, but that's nitpicking, I know)
Gunnar Harboe
Cordy seemed to stab Lilah much deeper than a vampire fang would reach,
and with a weapon that was wider. So it would have made a wound that a
vampire bite simply *could not* have made.
>And anyway, Angelus has a particularly notorious MO. It's not unlikely
>that Wesley would assume Angelus had a 'thing' for really making a
>mess of the neck area - assuming, of course, that once Angelus had
>finished with her body that it looked any different from any other
>vampire-ravaged corpse.
>
>>Overall, it's an OK episode, but it clearly gives the impression that
>>'Angel' has peaked for the season.
>
>*blinks*
>
>Okay, this episode was fantastic. Well, in my opinion anyway.
In my opinion, it was certainly not fantastic. There plenty of action,
but little of anything else.
>The bit I'm choosing to pick up on here, though, isn't our relative
>gradings of the episode overall, but rather on how you get to see a
>good episode and conclude from that that it's downhill for the season
>from here on in? Because that's at least implicit in what you're
>saying.
I meant "peaked" as in plot, not as in quality. Climaxed, if you will.
It's been pointed out several times that 'Angel' tends to peak
mid-season, and with the sun back and the Beast gone, I certainly feel
this is the case. For example, someone said a few weeks ago that there
simply *couldn't* have been a filler episode after Rain of Fire. Now, it
feels like next week quite possibly could be filler.
Of course, 'Angel' has turned into little more than a pulp action story,
so having peaked on those terms probably means having peaked in quality
too, but that's totally speculative...
Shuggie
The Lilah-Wes scenes were the best thing about this ep.
>The über-being turns out to be an überbitch. Yay!
Charisma struggles to play big bad though. IMO.
>The real bitch is back. Ewww!
Faith is soooo hot!
Hmm. Faith only really works as a bad-ass. She was given a little scope
for that here but not much. I'd like to have seen a more complex scene
between her and Wes. She *tortured* him last time out.
>
>I think I'm actually glad I got spoiled (ssht) for Faith's return. At
>least I've had time to get used to the idea. But I still hate her guts so
>I'm not happy.
Excuse me? You are in league with the devil surely? Faith is all that is
good and lovely about evil. Erm. You know what I mean. I'm a Faith fan -
I can't help it. I won't apologise.
>Although I have to admit she probably was the coolest one
>around... <sigh>
Always <different kind of sigh>
>
>Glad the beast is gone, he was getting old. Now can we get rid of Angelus?
>He's getting stale.
>
Yeah Fury should be able to write Angelus better than that. The trick to
Angelus is really clever dialogue and this is just ok.
But it was a bit too convenient that Angelus kills the beast for Faith.
>Overall, nice eppy.
It was mixed. But then being the Faith-fan that I am I had very high
expectations. It was cool - but could have been better.
Also - I'm more disgusted by the idea of Connor slobbering all over
Faith than I am that he did the nasty with Cordy - not sure it that's
wrong but it's what I feel.
"Are you a murderer? Cos I am." :)
I'm officially now a Wes/Faith shipper. I don't see it happening but
it's sooo right. He wants to redeem a bad girl. She is the ultimate bad
girl.
--
Shug
Oz: Wrong. The gold kryptonite's the power-sucker. The red
kryptonite mutates Superman into some sort of weird...
Buffy: Guys? Reality?
Tafka
Gunnar Harboe <gh...@cam.ac.uk>. alt.buffy.europe. Wed, 05 Mar 2003
22:04:06 +0000:
>>The bit I'm choosing to pick up on here, though, isn't our relative
>>gradings of the episode overall, but rather on how you get to see a
>>good episode and conclude from that that it's downhill for the season
>>from here on in? Because that's at least implicit in what you're
>>saying.
>
>I meant "peaked" as in plot, not as in quality. Climaxed, if you will.
>It's been pointed out several times that 'Angel' tends to peak
>mid-season, and with the sun back and the Beast gone, I certainly feel
>this is the case. For example, someone said a few weeks ago that there
>simply *couldn't* have been a filler episode after Rain of Fire. Now, it
>feels like next week quite possibly could be filler.
My god man, have you watched past seasons? I might accept that after the
last main Sweeps period the episodes fizzled instead of the sizzling
before (Pylea and post-Forgiving) but....
Season One: "5x5" & "Sanctuary". Eps 18/19.
Season Two: "Reprise" & "Epiphany"? Eps 15/16.
Season Three: "Loyalty", "Sleep Tight" & "Forgiving" 15-17.
Probably the "high" points of each season, right?
Given that we are on episode 13 - "She", "Happy Anniversary" & "Waiting In
The Wings" are the like-for-like episodes - I'm sure you can't be serious
that we have peaked mid-season?
We've normally had filler from around 8/9 through to 13/15, with mild plot
direction.
We've arguably not had a proper "filler" episode since "Supersymmetry" and
then only that and "The House Always Wins". So I make it two episodes.
From 13. I'm not going to even try counting how many we've had in Buffy
this season, but I'd put it at around 5? at least.
>Of course, 'Angel' has turned into little more than a pulp action story,
>so having peaked on those terms probably means having peaked in quality
>too, but that's totally speculative...
Naturally.
-Tafka-
Ahhhh, my head. I think I'm sobering up. It's horrible.
Ah... God... I wish I was dead.
pikelet
<tafka...@nospam-spamfree.boltfree.net> is twanging, all Hoob-like,
at me. I calmly say:
<snip it all>
What he said.
Tim
Gunnar Harboe
Approximately mid-season. If we accept your numbers, what they show is
that the climax isn't inevitably fixed at any given episode. If S1
peaked with #19 and S2 with #16, this season may well have peaked with
episode 12.
On the one hand you'd expect the Faith episodes to be the big bang of
the season, but on the other hand they've just wiped out the storyline
they've been building for most of the season, leaving us with only a
thwarted Evil!Cordy and old Angelus. They're going to have to cook up
some evil pretty damn quick, but it's not going to be the same as a
threat that's been brewing for the entire season, anyway.
>We've normally had filler from around 8/9 through to 13/15, with mild plot
>direction.
>
>We've arguably not had a proper "filler" episode since "Supersymmetry" and
>then only that and "The House Always Wins". So I make it two episodes.
>From 13. I'm not going to even try counting how many we've had in Buffy
>this season, but I'd put it at around 5? at least.
So?
Niall Harrison
>>Given that we are on episode 13 - "She", "Happy Anniversary" & "Waiting In
>>The Wings" are the like-for-like episodes - I'm sure you can't be serious
>>that we have peaked mid-season?
>
> Approximately mid-season. If we accept your numbers, what they show is
> that the climax isn't inevitably fixed at any given episode. If S1
> peaked with #19 and S2 with #16, this season may well have peaked with
> episode 12.
The mean of 19, 16 and 17 is 17.333. 12 is *well* outside the error
margins on that figure. So is 13.
A more accurate way of stating the situation is that _Angel_ always
climaxes in february sweeps. We've just had the first episode intended for
february sweeps.
> On the one hand you'd expect the Faith episodes to be the big bang of
> the season, but on the other hand they've just wiped out the storyline
> they've been building for most of the season, leaving us with only a
> thwarted Evil!Cordy and old Angelus.
I hardly know where to start with this.
First of all, the storyline they've been building most of the season is
EvilCordy. The Beast was her minion, remember? Going on about how powerful
his master is? We know that the eternal darkness was intended to bring
back Angelus, and it accomplished that. So this is a minor setback, but
hardly a thwarting.
Secondly, have you ever watched _Angel_ before? Apocalyptic events
*always* take second place to character events in this show and sure, it
looked for a while as thought S4 was going to buck that trend, but I can't
say I'm massively surprised that it hasn't. Because really, where can you
take an apocalyptic threat like the Beast? You can defeat it, and that's
about it. Whereas with the current character dynamic at AI, you're heading
for a far more personal climax.
I know Angelus vs Faith excites *me* more than AI vs the Beast, at any
rate.
Tafka
03:41:57 +0000:
>>>I meant "peaked" as in plot, not as in quality. Climaxed, if you will.
>>>It's been pointed out several times that 'Angel' tends to peak
>>>mid-season,
[snip]
>>>Now, it
>>>feels like next week quite possibly could be filler.
>>
>>My god man, have you watched past seasons?
[snip]
>>Season One: "5x5" & "Sanctuary". Eps 18/19.
>>Season Two: "Reprise" & "Epiphany"? Eps 15/16.
>>Season Three: "Loyalty", "Sleep Tight" & "Forgiving" 15-17.
[snip]
>
>Approximately mid-season. If we accept your numbers, what they show is
>that the climax isn't inevitably fixed at any given episode. If S1
>peaked with #19 and S2 with #16, this season may well have peaked with
>episode 12.
Can we at least hold off on the "may have peaked" until you, perhaps, see
next weeks episode? Or the one after?
>On the one hand you'd expect the Faith episodes to be the big bang of
>the season, but on the other hand they've just wiped out the storyline
>they've been building for most of the season, leaving us with only a
>thwarted Evil!Cordy and old Angelus.
If Evil!Cordy can brew up The Beast then me thinks she might be able to do
something else along those lines if needed, no?
We've still not got any resolution on what Connor is (W&H all died before
he got any answers, although that was a Beast related inquest) nor how
"the pregnancy" will be affected by Cordy or Connor - both "not normal".
>They're going to have to cook up
>some evil pretty damn quick, but it's not going to be the same as a
>threat that's been brewing for the entire season, anyway.
Angelus. Buffy Season Two.
What's remembered as the main focus of Buffy Season Two? Angelus' return.
Spike & Dru were just around and not acheiving much and then with one
night of passion, Angelus turns around the season.
And - a classic example of ME (and all TV) misdirection, right? I'm sure a
lot of people would've gotten bored of The Beast after a while and it
keeps it fresh, shaking things up etc.
>>We've normally had filler from around 8/9 through to 13/15, with mild plot
>>direction.
>>
>>We've arguably not had a proper "filler" episode since "Supersymmetry" and
>>then only that and "The House Always Wins". So I make it two episodes.
>>From 13. I'm not going to even try counting how many we've had in Buffy
>>this season, but I'd put it at around 5? at least.
>
>So?
Can't you be happy that we've had solid, back-to-back, good episodes and
even if we have "peaked" we've had a much better run than any season
before.
[And the rest of it is all as per Niall's reply]
-Tafka-
I have two words that are going to make all your troubles go away.
"Miniature." "Golf."
Gunnar Harboe
<tafka...@nospam-spamfree.boltfree.net> wrote:
>Can we at least hold off on the "may have peaked" until you, perhaps, see
>next weeks episode? Or the one after?
Hey, I say what I think. If the next weeks' episodes prove me wrong,
then so be it.
>>>We've arguably not had a proper "filler" episode since "Supersymmetry" and
>>>then only that and "The House Always Wins". So I make it two episodes.
I'd say "Spin the Bottle" was as fillery as they come.
>>>From 13. I'm not going to even try counting how many we've had in Buffy
>>>this season, but I'd put it at around 5? at least.
>>
>>So?
>
>Can't you be happy that we've had solid, back-to-back, good episodes and
>even if we have "peaked" we've had a much better run than any season
>before.
I don't agree that we have had back-to-back good episodes since
"Supersymmetry". For starters, I thought "Rain of Fire" was dire. The
run from "Habeas Corpses" to "Calvary" was good, but not exceptionally
so. And if you're saying S4 is the best Angel season ever, then .... o_O
And who's saying I'm not happy that the show had a few good episodes?