7ABB11 - "Showtime" [spoilers]
George van Hal
again. Been a while.
By all accounts I should be sleeping right now, but I have a cold and
kept waking up, so there really wasn't anything else to do besides get
up and watch some Buffy ;-)
Moving right along:
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Well, where to start. I guess I'll throw out some random observations.
There were a bunch of cool things that happened, even though this
episode on the whole felt like we didn't get anywhere. Which is suppose
is true.
The cool things are easily summed up: Übervamp has been dusted. On the
one hand: pretty cool scene. On the other, I find it to be pretty
strange that Buffy defeated this vamp with relative ease this time
around whereas she got her ass seriously kicked last time. They also
killed it just in time, I think. It started to feel weird having this
strong-ass neandervamp around with nothing much to do except walk around
being all omnious and stuff. Ofcourse they could've done more with the
whole Übervamp thing. Not sure how, but they could've. Honestly :-p
Also, the speech at the end of 'Bring on the Night', the whole fighting
back thing seems to be working out so far. Ofcourse it's just a
mentality change, a way of handling things, seeking the creatures out
instead of waiting for them to hit, but it worked with the Übervamp, so,
well, there. For lack of an actual argument.
Of course this all leads to the fact that The First has now become a lot
less threathening. It's got a bunch of wuss-ass Harbringers and that's
pretty much it. The Scoobs can breathe a sigh of relief - at least for now.
Okay, next point: Giles. Still didn't see him touching anything except
for leaning on a chair. And I might have to rewatch the scene with Anya
because I thought I saw a little arm-touchage there.
As for Giles being out of character though, don't see that so much right
now. It seemed like Giles all the way. Also, one might think that oracle
thingy would notice Giles being The First. Didn't pay attention if we
saw Giles and the Slayer-in-waiting girl who turned out to be the first
all along together on screen at any point. But then again, we don't know
if The First can be several people at the same time. Also, it'd be kinda
lame if they used the same trick twice, only this time with Giles.
But the most interesting scene was the one with the oracle, even though
the thing itself looked a bit cheesy imho. So, The First is striking now
because it's possible. Why? Well, because Buffy has returned from the
dead when she shouldn't have. Interesting. Want to see some further
reasoning behind that point because Buffy returning doesn't make much
sense in the way of being more vulnerable. If she'd died there would've
just been Faith and she's behind bars. Also don't see faith organising
the type of survival campaign that Buffy has. So I'd have to say that
with Buffy there The First has less of a chance of succeeding. Oh and
The First can't be killed. Gee, colour me surprised.
Finally: the Spike scenes were very cool this time around. More centered
on the whole Buffy thing. The final scene with Buffy rescuing Spike was
pretty powerfull in all it's simplicity. I don't much care if we've seen
similar stuff before, it's just done well.
See Ya,
George
Who blames any incoherence in this post on his cold ;-)
Dave Emberton
news:3E1A8153...@planet.nl...
Wow! I'm really loving this series.
>
> The cool things are easily summed up: Übervamp has been dusted. On the
> one hand: pretty cool scene. On the other, I find it to be pretty
> strange that Buffy defeated this vamp with relative ease this time
> around whereas she got her ass seriously kicked last time. They also
> killed it just in time, I think. It started to feel weird having this
> strong-ass neandervamp around with nothing much to do except walk around
> being all omnious and stuff. Ofcourse they could've done more with the
> whole Übervamp thing. Not sure how, but they could've. Honestly :-p
Maybe. What occurred to me is that Buffy staked the Ubervamp in the last
episode, but it had no effect. But we knew it shyed away from sunlight, so
there was reason to think it wasn't entirely unlike a normal vamp. So why
didn't the stake work? Well, given that it's actually a different species,
and that the regular vamps are more human, then it's entirely possible that
the Ubervamp's heart was in a different place, meaning Buffy staked him in
the wrong place. So I think the Ubervamp was never quite so tough as they
made out, and clearly sunlight, holy water, and beheading all worked the
same as a normal vamp.
> Of course this all leads to the fact that The First has now become a lot
> less threathening. It's got a bunch of wuss-ass Harbringers and that's
> pretty much it. The Scoobs can breathe a sigh of relief - at least for
now.
True. Which partly solves the problem I mentioned last time which is how are
they going to keep this level of tension going for a further 11 episodes?
> Okay, next point: Giles. Still didn't see him touching anything except
> for leaning on a chair. And I might have to rewatch the scene with Anya
> because I thought I saw a little arm-touchage there.
He leant on a wall last time, but I guess a ghost could do that. You might
be right about Anya, have to check. I did notice him getting out of the way
sharpish of Anyanka's ex-lover as he was about to walk into Giles. I keep
half expecting Giles to suddenly walk through a wall or something ;-)
>
> As for Giles being out of character though, don't see that so much right
> now. It seemed like Giles all the way.
No I think it's Giles. When Anya's offering sex to the demon, his reaction
reminded me a lot of the old Giles from earlier seasons.
> But the most interesting scene was the one with the oracle, even though
> the thing itself looked a bit cheesy imho.
Blakes 7 monster there ;-)
> So, The First is striking now
> Finally: the Spike scenes were very cool this time around. More centered
> on the whole Buffy thing. The final scene with Buffy rescuing Spike was
> pretty powerfull in all it's simplicity. I don't much care if we've seen
> similar stuff before, it's just done well.
Agreed.
But where is Faith? They've gathered all the potential slayers, but doesn't
seem to have occurred to them to gather all the actual slayers. And
presumably the harbringers are going to want Faith dead too, so she's at
risk.
Great episode I thought.
Dave (now 40 minutes late for work)
Gunnar Harboe
wrote:
>Of course this all leads to the fact that The First has now become a lot
>less threathening. It's got a bunch of wuss-ass Harbringers and that's
>pretty much it. The Scoobs can breathe a sigh of relief - at least for now.
OTOH, it's started to use its trick of impersonating dead people more
effectively, which can lead to a pretty paranoid atmosphere. As I
mentioned over at UMTB, give me psychological warfare over martial arts
any day.
>Okay, next point: Giles. Still didn't see him touching anything except
>for leaning on a chair. And I might have to rewatch the scene with Anya
>because I thought I saw a little arm-touchage there.
>
>As for Giles being out of character though, don't see that so much right
>now. It seemed like Giles all the way.
Agreed. In BotN, Giles was way off (see televisionwithoutpity.com). Now
he seems like Giles. That doesn't mean he's not The First, though.
> Also, one might think that oracle
>thingy would notice Giles being The First. Didn't pay attention if we
>saw Giles and the Slayer-in-waiting girl who turned out to be the first
>all along together on screen at any point. But then again, we don't know
>if The First can be several people at the same time. Also, it'd be kinda
>lame if they used the same trick twice, only this time with Giles.
I could imagine an argument that showing the trick with Eve was a way
for them set up Giles later on. After all, while the fans are all abuzz
with speculation, I doubt very many casual viewers suspected anything
last ep. (Although there's still the blow to the head to be
explained...) This way, if Giles is revealed to be The First, it won't
feel like a cheat to them.
>But the most interesting scene was the one with the oracle, even though
>the thing itself looked a bit cheesy imho. So, The First is striking now
>because it's possible. Why? Well, because Buffy has returned from the
>dead when she shouldn't have. Interesting. Want to see some further
>reasoning behind that point because Buffy returning doesn't make much
>sense in the way of being more vulnerable. If she'd died there would've
>just been Faith and she's behind bars. Also don't see faith organising
>the type of survival campaign that Buffy has. So I'd have to say that
>with Buffy there The First has less of a chance of succeeding.
You're reading that the wrong way, I think. The argument is that by
bringing Buffy back, Willow et al unbalanced the mystical forces, which
made it possible for The First to launch an attack on the Slayer(s).
"The whole good versus evil, balancing the scales thing? I'm over it."
Bringing Buffy back was "against the rules" (we already knew that).
Maybe it somehow set The First free from following them, too.
> Oh and
>The First can't be killed. Gee, colour me surprised.
I'm just worried that this is all setting up another 'The Gift'-style
sacrifice from Buffy. I guess if they're making S8 without SMG she has
to die, but it'd be nice if she could do it in a different way this
time.
>Finally: the Spike scenes were very cool this time around. More centered
>on the whole Buffy thing. The final scene with Buffy rescuing Spike was
>pretty powerfull in all it's simplicity. I don't much care if we've seen
>similar stuff before, it's just done well.
And they actually had me going that it was The First there, too.
Mattia Valente
Woo! I didn't really feel terribly inspired too last night. Too tired.
> There were a bunch of cool things that happened, even though this
> episode on the whole felt like we didn't get anywhere. Which is suppose
> is true.
It's even more filler-y treading water than last week's was, but I'll
take this over some 'and now for a completely different standalone' any
day of the week, really.
> The cool things are easily summed up: Übervamp has been dusted. On the
> one hand: pretty cool scene.
It was an OK scene. On the whole, the choreography, filming, style, feel
of the Turok-Han was far, far more effective in BotN, and here it just
was all kind of there, but not horribly inspired or inspiring.
> On the other, I find it to be pretty
> strange that Buffy defeated this vamp with relative ease this time
> around whereas she got her ass seriously kicked last time.
Do recall he had orders to not kill her, and bring her back alive. At
least, I'm assuming 'Her' is Buffy.
> They also
> killed it just in time, I think. It started to feel weird having this
> strong-ass neandervamp around with nothing much to do except walk around
> being all omnious and stuff. Ofcourse they could've done more with the
> whole Übervamp thing. Not sure how, but they could've. Honestly :-p
Riiiiight....I'm sort of glad it's stayed at this, really. That, or have
him turn some people and make it more interesting. Just the one of him
wasn't really working terribly geniously well any more.
> Also, the speech at the end of 'Bring on the Night', the whole fighting
> back thing seems to be working out so far. Ofcourse it's just a
> mentality change, a way of handling things, seeking the creatures out
> instead of waiting for them to hit, but it worked with the Übervamp, so,
> well, there. For lack of an actual argument.
Um, right. Although I'm not positive this is wholly 'new', as such.
They've been rather competenet and pro-active all season, doing things
the right way. See 'Help'. Or a number of other eps. Just sayin' it
ain't as revolutionary as all that.
> Of course this all leads to the fact that The First has now become a lot
> less threathening.
Well, not really. Because I don't think we've got a clear view of what
it plans to do. Uncertainty isn't good. So there's no clear physical
threat right now. To think it's over because of that is silly.
> It's got a bunch of wuss-ass Harbringers and that's
> pretty much it. The Scoobs can breathe a sigh of relief - at least for now.
We may get a calmer, different style of ep period now before Feb sweeps,
though, because we haven't got the Turok to worry about. Of course,
y'know, Harbingers were doing a pretty good job of taking out
potentials. So they're not that Wuss-ass.
> Okay, next point: Giles. Still didn't see him touching anything except
> for leaning on a chair. And I might have to rewatch the scene with Anya
> because I thought I saw a little arm-touchage there.
Don't believe so. But yeah, he's all 'in character' now, so it may have
been a macguffin. But we're really going to have to wait and see to know
for sure.
> As for Giles being out of character though, don't see that so much right
> now. It seemed like Giles all the way. Also, one might think that oracle
> thingy would notice Giles being The First.
Maybe. But the Eye Thing doesn't really give a shit about anything, now
does it?
> Didn't pay attention if we
> saw Giles and the Slayer-in-waiting girl who turned out to be the first
> all along together on screen at any point. But then again, we don't know
> if The First can be several people at the same time.
Why shouldn't it be able to? It's the FIRST EVIL, ffs. Multiple
emanations shouldn't really be much of a problem. Consider the fact that
it was messing with Willow whilst it was busy driving Spike up the wall,
and possible messing with Dawn (although I'm suspecting more and more
that Joyce isn't a manifestation of the first...)
> Also, it'd be kinda
> lame if they used the same trick twice, only this time with Giles.
..not really. Would be interesting.
> But the most interesting scene was the one with the oracle, even though
> the thing itself looked a bit cheesy imho.
A bit very. And it was more teasy than really very interesting.
> So, The First is striking now
> because it's possible. Why? Well, because Buffy has returned from the
> dead when she shouldn't have. Interesting. Want to see some further
> reasoning behind that point because Buffy returning doesn't make much
> sense in the way of being more vulnerable. If she'd died there would've
> just been Faith and she's behind bars. Also don't see faith organising
> the type of survival campaign that Buffy has. So I'd have to say that
> with Buffy there The First has less of a chance of succeeding.
I think you're missing the point, frankly. I was wondering if it was the
resurrection per se (having 2 slayers at one time), in which case the
problem would've been there since, oh, S1, but it's more likely, looking
at the chronology, that the means by which Buffy was brought back (that
whole out of phaseness, the not coming back quite the same, being
completely and truly dead and buried and rotting and gone off to heaven
and all that dead..) are at 'fault'.
> Oh and The First can't be killed. Gee, colour me surprised.
And gee, I really hope The First is still around at the end of the
season. And that it won't ever be defeated in any complete sense.
Because it's the FIRST. See 'Reprise' (y'know, that Angel ep).
Basically, I'm with Niall on this. At least I think I am.
> Finally: the Spike scenes were very cool this time around. More centered
> on the whole Buffy thing. The final scene with Buffy rescuing Spike was
> pretty powerfull in all it's simplicity. I don't much care if we've seen
> similar stuff before, it's just done well.
Indeed. The Spike stuff worked, because it was simple, understated, and
not totally shoehorned in everywhere.
Mattia
--
"It's low stress and the only place I get called "fucking," and
that's always funny." - Tim Minear, on why uk.media.tv.angel is
such a great place
Mattia Valente
One more comment: The encode was skippy...that wasn't just my copy,
right? 'Here Endeth the Lesson' being cut off? And most
disturbingly.....I swear that wasn't SMG talking when we heard Buffy's
Inner Voice. No way.
Mattia
--
"Too many obsessions to list. My obsessions have obsessions." -
Steve DeKnight
Gunnar Harboe
My copy had three or four skips, but I've had them since I started
getting Buffy by BitTorrent (probably the encoder doing them rather than
the d/l, though). I also get "Here end... e lesson", at first I thought
it was simply SMG getting it wrong.
BTW, I think my complaint last episode that Giles sounded weird when
Buffy fell into the hole was the fault of a skip, too. On repeat
viewing, having consulted the transcript, I've actually got "Goo...you
all right?"
> And most
>disturbingly.....I swear that wasn't SMG talking when we heard Buffy's
>Inner Voice. No way.
Didn't sound like her to me either.
Gunnar Harboe
> > Didn't pay attention if we
>> saw Giles and the Slayer-in-waiting girl who turned out to be the first
>> all along together on screen at any point. But then again, we don't know
>> if The First can be several people at the same time.
>
>Why shouldn't it be able to? It's the FIRST EVIL, ffs. Multiple
>emanations shouldn't really be much of a problem. Consider the fact that
>it was messing with Willow whilst it was busy driving Spike up the wall,
>and possible messing with Dawn (although I'm suspecting more and more
>that Joyce isn't a manifestation of the first...)
As David points out on UMTB, it was *certainly* appearing as Warren to
Andrew and as Carrie to Willow at the same time.
I find it far-fetched to believe it couldn't then appear as two separate
people in the same room.
Dave Emberton
news:ql2m1vkhnpf8lqe9o...@4ax.com...
Willow is just listening to everybody else's thoughts all the time?
Mattia Valente
>>>disturbingly.....I swear that wasn't SMG talking when we heard Buffy's
>>>Inner Voice. No way.
>>
>>Didn't sound like her to me either.
>
> Me neither. And since when is Buffy telepathic? Or are we to assume that
> Willow is just listening to everybody else's thoughts all the time?
Well, no. Remember 'Bargaining'? Willow's telepathic, can read minds at
certain times, and transmit thoughts. Apparently Buffy figured out how
to direct it, and, well, y'know. Maybe it's just focussing on someone.
Worked out in 'Bargaining', so why not here?
Mattia
--
"NUDITY, NUDITY, NUDITY." - Joss Whedon on S5
Dave Emberton
news:3E1B3CF5...@std.vu.nl...
That was different. They were in a big fight, so it would make sense for
Willow to listen in. But I can't believe Willow would be listening into
everybody's thoughts without it being pre-arranged, or that the rest of the
gang would be at all happy about it if she was. And remember, Buffy wasn't
around at the start of Bargaining. It would only make sense if Buffy and
Willow had talked about it before and somehow came up with some kind of
signal, or as you say they'd practiced being able to direct it, neither of
which we've seen any indication of.
Keeping the audience in the dark about the main characters' intentions is
something we've only seen once before (IIRC) which was in "Enemies" in S3.
Usually we see things from the scoobies' perspective and so know what
they're planning. I can't say I like it very much when the TV shows play
tricks on the audience, as it serves as a reminder that what you're watching
is just a TV show. Still, I thought that was the only weak point about this
episode.
Dave
Dan Milburn
Willow communicated telepathically in 'The Gift' too, although not to
Buffy.
>It would only make sense if Buffy and
>Willow had talked about it before and somehow came up with some kind of
>signal, or as you say they'd practiced being able to direct it, neither of
>which we've seen any indication of.
No, but then, when has there been any call for it? Most of S6, Willow
and Buffy weren't interacting much at all. The important thing really
is that we did know it's a power Willow possesses. It didn't just
come out of the blue.
>Keeping the audience in the dark about the main characters' intentions is
>something we've only seen once before (IIRC) which was in "Enemies" in S3.
>Usually we see things from the scoobies' perspective and so know what
>they're planning. I can't say I like it very much when the TV shows play
>tricks on the audience, as it serves as a reminder that what you're watching
>is just a TV show. Still, I thought that was the only weak point about this
>episode.
'Enemies' was different though. There genuinely was no way of
figuring out what was really going on, in fact it wasn't explained
satifactorily afterwards either, and it was all a bit of a cheat.
Here, it really wasn't all that important. There wasn't anything much
they could've done differently - Buffy still would have had to fight
the thing somewhere, it still would have been a bad idea to do it in
the house. We just find out that the Scoobies were a bit more
organised than they originally seemed.
Dan
Dave Emberton
news:3e1b5958...@news-text.blueyonder.co.uk...
Just watched it again, and in no way is that SMG! I wonder if it's meant to
be a joke about people never sounding the way they think they do ;-)
And Giles definitely never touched Anya. But one thing I did notice was that
the covern telephoned for Giles, but how would he have picked up the phone
to answer? Do the covern not know that he's dead (if indeed he is)??
> >That was different. They were in a big fight, so it would make sense for
> >Willow to listen in. But I can't believe Willow would be listening into
> >everybody's thoughts without it being pre-arranged, or that the rest of
the
> >gang would be at all happy about it if she was. And remember, Buffy
wasn't
> >around at the start of Bargaining.
>
> Willow communicated telepathically in 'The Gift' too, although not to
> Buffy.
Forgotten that. But there again it was Willow that initiated it (to Spike).
> >Keeping the audience in the dark about the main characters' intentions is
> >something we've only seen once before (IIRC) which was in "Enemies" in
S3.
> >Usually we see things from the scoobies' perspective and so know what
> >they're planning. I can't say I like it very much when the TV shows play
> >tricks on the audience, as it serves as a reminder that what you're
watching
> >is just a TV show. Still, I thought that was the only weak point about
this
> >episode.
>
> 'Enemies' was different though. There genuinely was no way of
> figuring out what was really going on, in fact it wasn't explained
> satifactorily afterwards either, and it was all a bit of a cheat.
> Here, it really wasn't all that important. There wasn't anything much
> they could've done differently - Buffy still would have had to fight
> the thing somewhere, it still would have been a bad idea to do it in
> the house. We just find out that the Scoobies were a bit more
> organised than they originally seemed.
True. I find "Enemies" extremely annoying, whereas here as you say it isn't
all that important. Still would have been better without it I thought, but
then I guess that's a personal thing.
Dave
Mattia Valente
Another little detail that everyone but me probably noticed the first
time 'round, but there you go: names.
In particular, the ironic choice of name for the SiT that the First ends
up impersonating. Eve. Y'know, the First Woman. According to some loony
readings of biblical texts the Original Sin Instigator Lady that caused
the fall of man?
Dun dun duuuun.
That's all, really.
Mattia
--
"It's all Shakespeare's fault. The rat bastard." - Joss Whedon
pikelet
Valente <mae.v...@std.vu.nl> is twanging, all Hoob-like, at me. I
calmly say:
>And most
>disturbingly.....I swear that wasn't SMG talking when we heard Buffy's
>Inner Voice. No way.
I've read one person's theory that it's Eliza Dushku. Haven't
rewatched my copy to verify, so if anybody else wants to check,
they're more than welcome.
Also - Fury has resorted to ripping off 'Doctor Who'.
I'm not making this up, either.
'I'm the one the monsters have nightmares about', indeed.
Tim.
--
Boom biddy boom biddy boom biddy boom biddy boom
biddy boom biddy boom boom boom.
Dave Emberton
Maybe reading a little too much into it there ;-) We probably won't see her
again.
Talking of names (though not in any way related to Mattia's post), did
anybody notice one of the guest stars (one of the potentials I assume) was
called "Indigo", no last name. Can we say "stuck in the 80's?" ;-)
Dave
Freedy
> Also - Fury has resorted to ripping off 'Doctor Who'.
>
> I'm not making this up, either.
>
> 'I'm the one the monsters have nightmares about', indeed.
Hee-hee. I noticed that too. Where's it originally from? Is it Paul Cornell?
There were rumours that David Fury was approached as a consultant about
a new Doctor Who series so he may be a fan.
Terry
pikelet
<fre...@btopenworld.com> is twanging, all Hoob-like, at me. I calmly
say:
Yeah, it's somewhere in 'Love And War', if memory serves.
It's revisited in one of the later novels, where he says it with a
twinge of regret, noting it as 'Something I said once, in my
arrogance'.
Pride, falls, etc.
Wonder if they'll go down that route for Buffy too? <g>
Tim
Iain Clark
<We interrupt this reply to bring you an unscheduled announcement...>
Aaaargh! Tell me the truth about Giles, you complete and utter
BASTARD WRITERS!
<...normal service will now be resumed.>
>Woo! I didn't really feel terribly inspired too last night. Too tired.
>
>> There were a bunch of cool things that happened, even though this
>> episode on the whole felt like we didn't get anywhere. Which is suppose
>> is true.
>
>It's even more filler-y treading water than last week's was, but I'll
>take this over some 'and now for a completely different standalone' any
>day of the week, really.
>
I think I liked it about the same as last week's. It really didn't do
itself justice, and it could have been much better.
>> The cool things are easily summed up: Übervamp has been dusted. On the
>> one hand: pretty cool scene.
>
>It was an OK scene. On the whole, the choreography, filming, style, feel
>of the Turok-Han was far, far more effective in BotN, and here it just
>was all kind of there, but not horribly inspired or inspiring.
>
Uninteresting direction, definitely.
> > On the other, I find it to be pretty
>> strange that Buffy defeated this vamp with relative ease this time
>> around whereas she got her ass seriously kicked last time.
>
>Do recall he had orders to not kill her, and bring her back alive. At
>least, I'm assuming 'Her' is Buffy.
>
I think there was a vague theme in there somewhere about not giving in
to your fears and evil being less strong than it appears. Possibly.
Effectively I think the vamp appeared to be unkillable because of the
stake not hurting it, whereas in most other ways it was just a big,
hard vampire.
> > They also
>> killed it just in time, I think. It started to feel weird having this
>> strong-ass neandervamp around with nothing much to do except walk around
>> being all omnious and stuff. Ofcourse they could've done more with the
>> whole Übervamp thing. Not sure how, but they could've. Honestly :-p
>
>Riiiiight....I'm sort of glad it's stayed at this, really. That, or have
>him turn some people and make it more interesting. Just the one of him
>wasn't really working terribly geniously well any more.
>
He began to look a bit silly lurking in the background trying to look
menacing without having anything to actually do. I half expected to
see him lounging around with his feet up on the sofa and reading the
paper.
>> Also, the speech at the end of 'Bring on the Night', the whole fighting
>> back thing seems to be working out so far. Ofcourse it's just a
>> mentality change, a way of handling things, seeking the creatures out
>> instead of waiting for them to hit, but it worked with the Übervamp, so,
>> well, there. For lack of an actual argument.
>
>Um, right. Although I'm not positive this is wholly 'new', as such.
>They've been rather competent and pro-active all season, doing things
>the right way. See 'Help'. Or a number of other eps. Just sayin' it
>ain't as revolutionary as all that.
>
Yes, but this was a "fight back against overwhelming odds in the face
of almost certain defeat" kind of thing. A different order of
pro-active altogether.
In concept I really like this episode. You had the big "only thing
stronger than evil is us" speech, then, cleverly, an apparent
anticlimax where they realise that they have no real way of fighting
back. Discontent and gloom abounds, setback follows setback, and they
go on the run.
Then, what should have been the kick-ass, cathartic twist where they
reveal that their defeat was a ploy, and they beat the crap out of the
neandervamp.
Except it didn't really feel kick-ass or cathartic. It was
just...there.
I'm afraid I'm really not a fan of David Fury - he does good isolated
scenes, but he doesn't write pacy, sharp, witty drama. His episodes
always have a slightly tired feeling. And he did the only crap Angel
episode so far this season.
(Cue people naming all the classic episodes written by David Fury <g>)
>> Of course this all leads to the fact that The First has now become a lot
>> less threathening.
>
>Well, not really. Because I don't think we've got a clear view of what
>it plans to do. Uncertainty isn't good. So there's no clear physical
>threat right now. To think it's over because of that is silly.
>
I'm relieved they got rid of the vamp because it was too weak a device
to hang an ongoing menace on. Evil Spike was a lot more interesting
and menacing, and the First is creepy in its own right. We need more
of that.
>We may get a calmer, different style of ep period now before Feb sweeps,
>though, because we haven't got the Turok to worry about. Of course,
>y'know, Harbingers were doing a pretty good job of taking out
>potentials. So they're not that Wuss-ass.
>
I'm intrigued as to where this will go.
>> Okay, next point: Giles. Still didn't see him touching anything except
>> for leaning on a chair. And I might have to rewatch the scene with Anya
>> because I thought I saw a little arm-touchage there.
>
>Don't believe so.
They came close, I think, but not enough so that Anya would have
noticed one way or the other.
It's becoming so obvious that Giles always has his hands in his
pockets, and isn't having any of the expected heart-to-heart chats
with Buffy etc. He feels strangely disconnected from events.
But is it all just cruel, cruel misdirection? This is really
irritating me now. :-) I like it as a twist, if it *is* a twist, but
I'm now completely distracted by it. Worse, I can't enjoy Giles being
back because I'm constantly thinking that it's not really him.
>> As for Giles being out of character though, don't see that so much right
>> now. It seemed like Giles all the way. Also, one might think that oracle
>> thingy would notice Giles being The First.
>
He did seem more Giles-like this time, and he seemed to be trying to
find useful info.
Then again, he could have been testing to see what it knew, and at
least one of his questions was something the first would like to know:
would its plan succeed?
> > Also, it'd be kinda
>> lame if they used the same trick twice, only this time with Giles.
>
>..not really. Would be interesting.
>
And as someone said, Eve acts as set-up for the Giles twist. If it
*is* a twist. Grr.....
>I think you're missing the point, frankly. I was wondering if it was the
>resurrection per se (having 2 slayers at one time), in which case the
>problem would've been there since, oh, S1, but it's more likely, looking
>at the chronology, that the means by which Buffy was brought back (that
>whole out of phaseness, the not coming back quite the same, being
>completely and truly dead and buried and rotting and gone off to heaven
>and all that dead..) are at 'fault'.
>
I think that bringing Buffy back was an unfair "cheat" on the part of
good. It tipped the scales. Therefore the First now has carte
blanche to fight back directly.
> > Oh and The First can't be killed. Gee, colour me surprised.
>
>And gee, I really hope The First is still around at the end of the
>season. And that it won't ever be defeated in any complete sense.
>Because it's the FIRST. See 'Reprise' (y'know, that Angel ep).
>Basically, I'm with Niall on this. At least I think I am.
>
I agree. Both Joyce and the oracle have now stated that the First
can't be defeated. It's just evil. And evil will always exist.
I suppose there may be some hocus pocus way of defeating it, but I
doubt it will be permanent.
>> Finally: the Spike scenes were very cool this time around. More centered
>> on the whole Buffy thing. The final scene with Buffy rescuing Spike was
>> pretty powerfull in all it's simplicity. I don't much care if we've seen
>> similar stuff before, it's just done well.
>
>Indeed. The Spike stuff worked, because it was simple, understated, and
>not totally shoehorned in everywhere.
>
Yes. The Spike/Dru stuff was amazingly forced and uninteresting.
This week was much better in that respect.
Lastly, the best line this week was from Anya: "That's called memory!"
Iain
--
"All alone in my white boy pain
Shake your booty while the band complains"
Saskia
I just did... it's most bizarre... sure as heck doesn't sound like Buffy.
Wouldn't want to place bets on Faith, but the voice does sound more like
her than like Buffy's. But how?? Why? I mean huh?
(I'm gonna keep talking characters names otherwise it just gets even more
confusing)
--
Saskia
"Well, judging by the outfit, I guess it’s safe to come in. Evil Angel
would’ve never worn those pants."
Iain Clark
<notint...@notinterested.in.your.spam.com> wrote:
>Just watched it again, and in no way is that SMG! I wonder if it's meant to
>be a joke about people never sounding the way they think they do ;-)
>
I didn't notice the telepathic voice being funny, but everyone seems
to agree so I'l have to listen again.
>> >That was different. They were in a big fight, so it would make sense for
>> >Willow to listen in. But I can't believe Willow would be listening into
>> >everybody's thoughts without it being pre-arranged, or that the rest of
>the
>> >gang would be at all happy about it if she was. And remember, Buffy
>wasn't
>> >around at the start of Bargaining.
>>
>> Willow communicated telepathically in 'The Gift' too, although not to
>> Buffy.
>
>Forgotten that. But there again it was Willow that initiated it (to Spike).
>
I assumed that if Buffy concentrates on thinking something that she
actively wants Willow to hear, while staring right into Willow's eyes,
that Willow can pick up on it (as opposed to just listening to all
Buffy's thoughts all the time.)
Even in the middle of a telepathic conversation Willow doesn't hear
all their thoughts, just the ones that are directed at her.
Iain
--
"What'll I tell him
When he comes to me for absolution?"
Ian Shuttleworth
iain...@dragonhaven.plus.com (Iain Clark) wrote:
> I think that bringing Buffy back was an unfair "cheat" on the part of
> good. It tipped the scales. Therefore the First now has carte
> blanche to fight back directly.
The First has had that since long before we ever saw it. We've known
since the first appearance of Kendra that Buffy's revival in 1.12 dicked
around with destiny.
Now, does someone want to explain how that was good for only some kinds of
destiny, and that it took the heavier mojo of S6 to dislodge other bits?
Or do we just acknowledge sadly that it's another example of ME in more
recent times taking their eye off the ball, as with the First torturing
Spike by, er, near-drowning, only a few weeks after Angel returns from
several *months* in the undersea world of Jacques Cousteau with no
physical ill-effects whatever?
--
Ian S.
O T
I wondered how he got out of that.
Giles dead?
There goes the season finale.
And if Faith is still alive how did Buffy's resurrection change
anything?
< $15 a carton
Saskia
First of all, what you said: we don't know that at all.
You cut the spoiler space. It's not there for fun, it's there to prevent
people from reading about event they haven't seen yet!
If you can cancel your posts (yes, the other one two), then please do so
and NEVER EVER delete spoiler space again.
--
Saskia
"That's so cute. Planning life as a loser? Most people just turn out way,
but you're really taking charge."
Iain Clark
For me, it's hard to see CPR as mucking around with cosmic destiny,
though it did fool the rather gullible trigger that creates a new
Slayer.
It's much, much, much, *much* more easy to see the resurrection of a
rotting corpse and the wrenching of a "soul" from another dimension,
involving dark magic and ritual sacrifice, as being just a tiny bit
more significant.
>Or do we just acknowledge sadly that it's another example of ME in more
>recent times taking their eye off the ball, as with the First torturing
>Spike by, er, near-drowning, only a few weeks after Angel returns from
>several *months* in the undersea world of Jacques Cousteau with no
>physical ill-effects whatever?
To be fair that scene a) was crap, and b) showed no sign that Spike
was in any actual risk of drowning. The key is that it was designed
to make him miserable, not kill him. Shame they couldn't have come up
with something more inventive or interesting.
Iain
--
"You have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone."
Ian Shuttleworth
iain...@dragonhaven.plus.com (Iain Clark) wrote:
> For me, it's hard to see CPR as mucking around with cosmic destiny,
> though it did fool the rather gullible trigger that creates a new
> Slayer.
I'd be inclined to agree with you, but who are we two against the explicit
text?
Because it's not just the Slayer activation mechanism that the CPR screwed
up.
WHISTLER: You know, it wasn't supposed to go down like this. Nobody saw
you coming. I figured this for Angel's big day, but I thought he was here
to *stop* Acathla, not bring him forth. But you two made with the
smootchies and now he's a creep again.
--Becoming, part 2
And we know that Whistler's brief regarding Angel was a direct commission
from the Powers That Be (most explicitly in the draft script for "City
Of", but all the pieces are still there in divers places), so he wasn't
going by a source that's normally at all fallible.
It's clear from the combination of these that the Pergamum Codex - to
whose authority and reliability Giles has testified - wasn't so much
pedantically satisfied by Buffy's momentary "death" in "Prophecy Girl" as
outright thwarted.
So no, we're not talking about some "dumb" mystical mechanism here... not
that we know how "dumb" or mechanical such an occurrence as the calling
of a new Slayer is, because it's never been explained; we're just
speculating.
In contrast, what we know explicitly is that the change of path we're
talking about here is one of major destiny, so major that it overreaches
and wrongfoots even the PTB - not their under-oracles, but the Powers
themselves.
I suggest that it's fairly difficult to get even
> a tiny bit more significant
in Buffyverse cosmology than this level; and we could argue about whether
or not the First outranks the PTB, but clearly that word "tiny" in such a
case reverts to straightforward meaning rather than the sarcastic sense in
which you use it.
Bottom line, the "Prophecy Girl" resurrection has been firmly shown to
have long since had reverberations in a league than which there is little
if anything more major.
(And let's savour the recollection: who was the mega-powerful being who
caused all this upset? Alexander Lavelle Harris...)
--
Ian S.
Gunnar Harboe
>Bottom line, the "Prophecy Girl" resurrection has been firmly shown to
>have long since had reverberations in a league than which there is little
>if anything more major.
You know, I'm reading this quote, and I just can't find any reference to
CPR at all. So much for "explicit".
I'm tempted to suggest that you're just drawing lines between whatever
dots will make the picture you want. :-)
Paul Cornell
If he did quote it from me (and it's the sort of thing that fits Buffy
so well he might have just invented it again), then I'm so, so,
flattered.
Does anyone know how to get in touch with David Fury? It'll sound
really fannish, but I'd like to say thanks.
John Briggs
news:f539d8fb.03011...@posting.google.com...
Perhaps inevitably, he has his own fan club website! Try
http://www.davidfury.net/contact.html
He seems to be a fan of Dr Who - there were wild reports last year of the
BBC considering a new series with ASH as the Doctor and DF working on the
scripts.
John Briggs
Freedy
Hi Paul. Always good to greet one's heroes I say.
Lance Parkin has just pointed out on the JP that David Fury was actually
in discussions with Dan Freedman around the time Death Comes To Time and
The Dying Days was on the BBC site. So David Fury may have been quoting
Lance Parkin quoting you. So it's entirely within the realms of
possibility.
Or he may have read Love and War. :)
Terry
Shuggie
Well since she was probably *born* in the 80's that's not so surprising
is it? I don't know about you but I don't change my name every decade :P
--
Shug
Minuteman: What's it like summoning demons?
Deadly Girl: They do your will, and that makes you feel good about
yourself.
Iain Clark
wrote:
Well, I'll concede that Angel and Buffy couldn't have "made with the
smoochies" unless Xander had done the CPR*. And therefore that,
indirectly, it made the smoochies possible.
However there is no explicit evidence in the above quote that the
Powers didn't foresee the CPR. All it states is that they didn't
foresee the smoochies and Angel's resultant evilness. The reason for
their lack of foresight may, or may not, have been the CPR.
Iain
* at least, not if they wanted it to be shown on Network TV...
--
"I cannot believe that you, of all people, are trying to Scully me."
Ian Shuttleworth
In article <thmu1v4l32i4r97hc...@4ax.com>, gh...@cam.ac.uk
(Gunnar Harboe) wrote:
> You know, I'm reading this quote, and I just can't find any reference to
> CPR at all. So much for "explicit".
>
> I'm tempted to suggest that you're just drawing lines between whatever
> dots will make the picture you want. :-)
Buffy screwed up Acathla-related destiny not least because she was around
to screw it up.
Her being around...
> THE MASTER: You were destined to die! It was written.
--1.12, "Prophecy Girl"
Well, yeah, another bad guy being wrong-footed, except
> GILES: Some prophecies are dodgey. Mutable. Buffy herself has thwarted
> them time and again. (holds up volume) But this is the Pergamum Codex.
> There is nothing in it that does not come to pass.
-- ibid.
Sometimes the reason dots can be joined up in a particular shape is
because that's the shape they're actually in :-)
Again, bottom line, which is more plausible: fine and complex distinction,
or momentary sloppiness on the part of M.E.?
--
Ian S.
Gunnar Harboe
Fine distinction (not all that complex). After all, this is the point
the episode hangs on. Which is why I question your interpretation.
Look at Giles's quote. The implication is that Xander reviving Buffy
*didn't* "dick about with destiny", since the prophecy *could not* be
thwarted.
The prophecy came true, and Buffy's resurrection was exactly what should
happen according to destiny. The Master was just jumping to the wrong
conclusions.
Ian Shuttleworth
(Gunnar Harboe) wrote:
> Look at Giles's quote. The implication is that Xander reviving Buffy
> *didn't* "dick about with destiny", since the prophecy *could not* be
> thwarted.
Not the implication, an interpretation. Another is that this time it
*was* thwarted. As I say, later on we're told that "nobody" - not even
the PTB - "saw [Buffy] coming". Why would the PTB be caught so on the hop
by a turn of events as trivial on the face of it as a tumble in the sack?
The implication (ha, yes!) that she wasn't supposed to be there is much
more fundamental.
--
Ian S.
Paul Cornell
> Hi Paul. Always good to greet one's heroes I say.
That's very kind of you, thank you. If anyone does have an e-address
for David Fury, please could they e-mail it to me? Thanks.
Shuggie
How sure are you that "PTB plans" = "destiny"?
I've always had the impression that the PTBs are neither omniscient nor
omnipotent and therefore they can be blindsided just like anyone else -
maybe not so easily but they can get it wrong.
When Whistler says "It wasn't supposed to go down like this." the
"supposed" makes it sound like maybe it's destiny. However by adding
"Nobody saw you coming. I figured this for Angel's big day. But I
thought he was here to *stop* Acathla, not to bring him forth."
he makes it clear that he, and whoever he's working for (PTBs), are not
in complete control. If there is an overall destiny the PTBs are not
masters of it. Otherwise Whistler wouldn't be using phrases like "I
figured", and "I thought".
This concept - the PTBs being higher powers but not in complete control
- is one that ME have stuck to fairly consistently.
--
Shug
"You're odd."
- Mattia Valente
Ian Shuttleworth
shu...@SPAMMENOTaceypace.freeserve.co.uk (Shuggie) wrote:
Well, this is rather my point. Obviously, in my interpretation, if the S1
resuscitation was contrary to destiny as sort of personified in the PTBs,
then they aren't in fact omniscient or omnipotent. The question is, does
this incident represent a gross anomaly in a PTB status that, the rest of
the time, asymptotically approaches omnipotence and omniscience? I think
we're meant to conclude that it does.
--
Ian S.
Gunnar Harboe
Additionally, if Whistler's relationship with the PTB is anything like
Doyle's, he probably would only have a vague idea of what they knew and
didn't know. "Nobody saw you coming" means only that he hadn't heard
about anyone knowing.
Still, I think the most persuasive argument is from 'Prophecy Girl'. The
whole POINT of that episode was that there was a way to fulfil the
prophecy which Giles, Angel, Buffy and the Master all overlooked. The
Pergamum only says she would die, not that she would stay dead, and the
show has consistently stuck to the "she died" line, even in this episode
(7x11). So we know that the prophecy was not in fact thwarted.
Shuggie
I'm afraid I don't.
Buffy's resuscitation is certainly an anomaly - Giles calls it
"unprecedented" when Kendra turns up. I've just never seen anything to
suggest the PTBs were approaching omnipotence or omniscience. They don't
appear at all in S1, the first hints are in S2 with Whistler's arrival.
So to my mind from their introduction the PTBs were Powers but not *the*
Powers.
I'm also not so sure on the connection between the PTBs and the Slayer
line. We don't really know whether the PTBs are part of the whole
Slayer-calling process or just on the side of good too.
(Of course there's also the recurring theme that Slayer Power is rooted
in darkness - which, perhaps, puts a little more distance between the
PTBs and Slayers?)
--
Shug
Fire bad, tree pretty
Ian Kirk
news:memo.20030112...@shutters.compulink.co.uk...
I'd disagree, if only because the PTBs have shown little evidence of true
omnipotence and only limited omniscience (which I guess makes it not
actually very omni- at all).
> [Spoilers for Angel S2, Buffy S7 (all eps) and beyond in rest of post]
> (To be honest I haven't got a clue about which Angel eps have been
broadcast in the UK, much less Continental Europe, so am putting the space
in out of general paranoia...)
>
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As far as omnipotence goes what have they really done to demonstrate that?
Turn Cordy into a demon? From assorted other eps in B & A you can get
demonic attributes from such minor things as being splattered by their goo
as you kill them, so that's not such a big thing.
Open dimensional portals? Heck, there's almost more creatures that can do
this than can't in the Buffy/Angelverse - D'Hoffyrn, Giles & Willow (with a
bit of advance warning), Holtz, the big demon taking out the garbage in
B7.11...
Can't actually think of anything else they've *done*, other than have an
impressive-sounding name and have a good idea of the wider picture. Which
brings us on to omniscience.
The PTB do seem to have a better idea of what's going on than the main cast
in Buffy or (more often) Angel, but then again why wouldn't they? They're
the ones standing off in a higher dimension letting everyone feed info back
them and without any in-the-field distractions; a cadre of humans could
probably do as good a job given the same data to work with. As far as
passing on info to others the PTB seems to be limited to vague hints along
the lines of "something big's coming", or low level warnings like "a big
toothy demon's attacking shoppers over on Main" - again not that
awe-inspiring given the information fed to them and the support of a few
eyes-in-the-sky like HigherDimensionCordy.
Future predictions seem to be limited to a few days in advance, which isn't
that remarkable (sing him a song and Lorne can do better than that) or more
often than not based on some ancient prophecy which the team have to find
the scrolls for themselves.
All of which makes the PTB failing to spot the S1 resurrection or the Angel
de-souling very much par for the course rather than a surprising lapse.
IMHO, naturally.
Ian
Iain Clark
For me this is quite straightforward:
There were two prophecies, one that Buffy would die in Prophecy Girl,
one that Angel would play a key role in the events surrounding the
raising of Acathla.
The Master wrongly assumed that Buffy's death would be permanent. The
PTB are not omnipotent, and they assumed this too.
Hence, when interpreting the Angel/Acathla prophecy, the PTB ruled out
the idea that he would be evil because they thought his true love
would be dead by that point. In the event, Buffy was revived, and
unexpectedly caused Angel to become evil.
None of this goes against any natural order. Both prophecies came to
pass exactly as ordained, it's simply that those interpreting them
were misled.
Buffy returning from the dead in Bargaining is a different thing
entirely. We don't know if it upset any prophecies, but it was
extremely unnatural, and we've now (apparently) been told by an Oracle
that it *did* set events in motion which allowed the First to strike.
In the absence of anything to contradict this, surely we have to
assume that it's correct? For now.
Iain
--
"Hootenanny, well, it's chock full of hoot,
just a little bit of nanny."
Tan Coul
(Paul Cornell) wrote:
You know, it had been killing me trying to work out where I remembered
that quote from! Gives you a kind of warm fuzzy glow, dunnit :-)
And yes, it fitted so well I spent ages trying to think which earlier
season of Buffy it came from before I remembered 'twas the Doc.
Your fame is spreading, Paul...
--
Colin B.
I touch the fire, and it freezes me...
Saskia
Weird. Just checked the shooting script and it doesn't mention this
conversation *at all*! Just that Buffy silenty walks to the kitchen, that
Willow follows her, Xander says "what?" and follows them. The three of
them stand around for a bit, staring at each other.
That's all.
Isn't that weird?
It could simply mean that this conversation was added later, but that
whole thing wouldn't make sense without the psychic conversation... hmmmm
--
Saskia
"Good call! Most people around here can't tell Prada from Payless."
Dan Milburn
wrote:
Yes it is. You're looking at when it happens the first time, not the
flashback. :)
Dan