Buffy 6.15 "As you were"(spoilers)
Dieter Schmidt
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Well, i'm not that great a reviewer but a few quick thoughts can't hurt.
The return of Riley. No surprise there because of the ever present
spoilers. I never really jumped on the "I hate Riley" bandwagon, so I
thought it was kinda nice to see him and see that part of Buffy's life
finally get closure. I liked Blucas's performance well enough, there was
some nice banter between him and Buffy ("love the hair") More importantly
though, seeing him finally convinces Buffy to end the whole Spike thing, and
may I say, it was about damn time.
But where do we go from here? Although I liked this episode a lot (as I did
the last two, after the disaster that was "doublemeat palace"), it still
only concludes the Spike/Buffy stuff. Seven episodes to go people! I really
get the feeling that Joss is setting up a larger storyline that will be
concluded no sooner than the end of season 7.
I'm pretty sure that after I press "send" I'll think of all kinds of stuff I
could have said, but I'll leave that to you guys :)
Dieter
Jonathan Black
Yep, I was spoiled for the fact the Riley would return in this
episode. And had I not been, there was of course always the
previously (dammit, I *hate* previouslies ;-P) and the opening
guest star credits to take care of that one.
> I never really jumped on the "I hate Riley" bandwagon, [...]
Me neither ;)
> [...] so I thought it was kinda nice to see him
> and see that part of Buffy's life finally get closure. I
> liked Blucas's performance well enough, there was some nice
> banter between him and Buffy ("love the hair") More
> importantly though, seeing him finally convinces Buffy to
> end the whole Spike thing, and may I say, it was about damn
> time.
Yes, I was sceptical about whether Riley coming back would be a
good idea, but in fact it turned out to work very well. It was
great to see him bring out the old Buffy, see him lift her out
of her stuck-in-a-rut-with-Spike-and-the-Doublemeat-Palace state
of depression, in a way that nothing had really succeeded in
doing so so far.
Now for a minute there we might even have thought they might be
getting back together, but the revalation of him suddenly being
a married man soon put a stop to that idea. A bit of a slap in
the face perhaps, for Buffy (as well as for any Buffy/Riley
shippers), but in fact in the end it doesn't nullify the
positive effect of Riley's visit much at all. Their
scene/conversation at the end was excellent, almost had me in
tears there for a minute in fact. He told her exactly what he
thought of her current situation, but in a completely non-
judgemental way, and this really helps her wake up to things,
and finally, once and for all (hopefully) she tells Spike that
it is over. Surely she means it this time...
> But where do we go from here? Although I liked this episode
> a lot (as I did the last two, after the disaster that was
> "doublemeat palace"), it still only concludes the
> Spike/Buffy stuff.
Well indeed, yet again, I still don't have any idea where we are
going from here. It is a very strange season in that way. We
have been saying this for months now. Basically, anything can
happen in what's left of the season now. Hopefully it will be
good.
Bye,
--
jonathaN
Mattia Valente
Review Schmeview. I onlt do reviews on second or third watchings,
anyway.
> The return of Riley. No surprise there because of the ever present
> spoilers.
In wasn't, actually, although the title gave me odd vibes, and the PoB
and the 'Special Guest Star' credit did sorta give the game away...
> I never really jumped on the "I hate Riley" bandwagon, so I
> thought it was kinda nice to see him and see that part of Buffy's life
> finally get closure.
Not being a lover of the Riley/Buffy thing, but liking S5 Riley more
than S4 Riley, I'm impressed with how this was handled, overall.
> I liked Blucas's performance well enough, there was
> some nice banter between him and Buffy ("love the hair") More importantly
> though, seeing him finally convinces Buffy to end the whole Spike thing, and
> may I say, it was about damn time.
'End' may be a strong word, but it's changed and moved along enough. She
still wants him, but hates what it does to her. Oh boy...now, if we make
sure Spike doesn't 'Go Good' (ie, redeem, which would suck total ass)
we've got a winning combo. I'm thinking The Redemptionist Doug Petrie
fans don't like him quite s'much no more...
> But where do we go from here? Although I liked this episode a lot (as I did
> the last two, after the disaster that was "doublemeat palace"),
Heh..I quite like this ep, mostly for what it does rather than for how
it does it. Sam (that is her name, right?) came across as nice, fune,
cute, but not an awfully impressive acting job, bit goofy overall, and
I'm still waiting for something more like 'Dead Things'. One more week
before rerun hell kicks in again. *sigh*
> it still
> only concludes the Spike/Buffy stuff. Seven episodes to go people! I really
> get the feeling that Joss is setting up a larger storyline that will be
> concluded no sooner than the end of season 7.
It's a weird season, all right. It's got a lot more to do with thematics
of growing up, dealing, moving on, with Life itself than with 'larger'
issues. And that feels a bit strange, at times. We've got Willow to deal
with (and AARGH! DAMN THEM for reinforcing the literal-magic-addiction
thing! AAARGHH!!!), Tara, and what Buffy's off to from here. Dawn's not
really been 'resolved' as such, not completely, but the 'ooh, secret
nuaghty Dawnness' seems to (thankfully) be in the open and there's more
dealing. I'm not particularly looking forward to The Wedding (which,
judging from 'the Wedding is next week' line in this ep is next week
:-/) but....
> I'm pretty sure that after I press "send" I'll think of all kinds of stuff I
> could have said, but I'll leave that to you guys :)
Heh.
Mostly, I like the fact that we're reestablishing Spike as anything but
a goody goody. He's not even trying particularly hard any more, or at
all, in fact. He's not very good at it, but still.
Mattia
--
"My beagle went swimming today and now he's typing on my keyboard with
his ample nose. Oh, and he's the bestest handsomeest beagle EVER."
--Tim Minear, Salon.com, May 2001
Mattia Valente
> > and see that part of Buffy's life finally get closure. I
> > liked Blucas's performance well enough, there was some nice
> > banter between him and Buffy ("love the hair") More
> > importantly though, seeing him finally convinces Buffy to
> > end the whole Spike thing, and may I say, it was about damn
> > time.
>
> Yes, I was sceptical about whether Riley coming back would be a
> good idea, but in fact it turned out to work very well. It was
> great to see him bring out the old Buffy, see him lift her out
> of her stuck-in-a-rut-with-Spike-and-the-Doublemeat-Palace state
> of depression, in a way that nothing had really succeeded in
> doing so so far.
Hell yes. And having him be hitched was....interesting. I did NOT see
that coming. Perhaps that's why I was releived; there wasn't the whole
Buffy/Riley/Spike face-off, not the way I expected it. In a sense, it's
too bad; Spike'd be dead, then. Spike's starting to bother me a bit.
Stupid Spike. He's even more lost than Buffy is, almost.
> Now for a minute there we might even have thought they might be
> getting back together, but the revalation of him suddenly being
> a married man soon put a stop to that idea. A bit of a slap in
> the face perhaps, for Buffy (as well as for any Buffy/Riley
> shippers), but in fact in the end it doesn't nullify the
> positive effect of Riley's visit much at all. Their
If anything, I'd argue it reinforces it. It's more of the same 'growing
up and moving on' theme, really. Plus, Riley had a cool scar :-)
> scene/conversation at the end was excellent, almost had me in
> tears there for a minute in fact.
Whoa. Sap much?
> He told her exactly what he
> thought of her current situation, but in a completely non-
> judgemental way, and this really helps her wake up to things,
> and finally, once and for all (hopefully) she tells Spike that
> it is over. Surely she means it this time...
GOD, but I hope so.
Niall Harrison
> Hell yes.
About bloody time, I say. I actually enjoyed this one. It was kinda goofy
in places, but actually went somewhere. Damn, but Doug Petrie should be
writing more episodes.
>> Now for a minute there we might even have thought they might be
>> getting back together, but the revalation of him suddenly being
>> a married man soon put a stop to that idea. A bit of a slap in
>> the face perhaps, for Buffy (as well as for any Buffy/Riley
>> shippers), but in fact in the end it doesn't nullify the
>> positive effect of Riley's visit much at all. Their
>
> If anything, I'd argue it reinforces it. It's more of the same 'growing
> up and moving on' theme, really.
Agreed.
>> He told her exactly what he
>> thought of her current situation, but in a completely non-
>> judgemental way, and this really helps her wake up to things,
>> and finally, once and for all (hopefully) she tells Spike that
>> it is over. Surely she means it this time...
>
> GOD, but I hope so.
With a third of the season left to go, I somehow doubt it.
Niall
--
The shameless fits of love
That only smother you for moments
'till I fold them up and leave
All yours.
Niall Harrison
Previously, on alt.buffy.europe - Mattia Valente wrote:
>> I never really jumped on the "I hate Riley" bandwagon, so I
>> thought it was kinda nice to see him and see that part of Buffy's life
>> finally get closure.
>
> Not being a lover of the Riley/Buffy thing, but liking S5 Riley more
> than S4 Riley, I'm impressed with how this was handled, overall.
I liked Riley progressively more as time went on. That trend continued
here.
It's just occured to me that on Sky, this ep will air the same week as
WITW. Two of the most hated characters return in the same week! :-)
>> I liked Blucas's performance well enough, there was
>> some nice banter between him and Buffy ("love the hair") More importantly
>> though, seeing him finally convinces Buffy to end the whole Spike thing, and
>> may I say, it was about damn time.
>
> 'End' may be a strong word, but it's changed and moved along enough. She
> still wants him, but hates what it does to her. Oh boy...now, if we make
> sure Spike doesn't 'Go Good' (ie, redeem, which would suck total ass)
> we've got a winning combo. I'm thinking The Redemptionist Doug Petrie
> fans don't like him quite s'much no more...
Spike is not going to be redeemed. Marti Noxon's comments in the SFX
Vampire Special would seem to make this abundantly clear...
>> But where do we go from here? Although I liked this episode a lot (as I did
>> the last two, after the disaster that was "doublemeat palace"),
>
> Heh..I quite like this ep, mostly for what it does rather than for how
> it does it.
It was fun. And at this stage, that's about all I ask from _Buffy_. 4.1,
maybe.
>> it still
>> only concludes the Spike/Buffy stuff. Seven episodes to go people! I really
>> get the feeling that Joss is setting up a larger storyline that will be
>> concluded no sooner than the end of season 7.
>
> It's a weird season, all right. It's got a lot more to do with thematics
> of growing up, dealing, moving on, with Life itself than with 'larger'
> issues. And that feels a bit strange, at times.
In any other season, AYW would have been an early-sweeps episode, as
'Crush' was last year, perhaps. Then the end of sweeps would have dealt
with the larger threat. This year, we've just got the soapy bits. *sigh*.
> We've got Willow to deal
> with (and AARGH! DAMN THEM for reinforcing the literal-magic-addiction
> thing! AAARGHH!!!),
Yeah. For a while there, I thought they really were faking us out with the
Willow-addiction thing, but I guess not. :-(
Niall
--
I want to be someone else or I'll explode.
Saskia
Great! Reviews are boring, thoughts are much more fun ;-)
> The return of Riley. No surprise there because of the ever present
> spoilers. I never really jumped on the "I hate Riley" bandwagon, so I
> thought it was kinda nice to see him and see that part of Buffy's life
> finally get closure. I liked Blucas's performance well enough, there was
> some nice banter between him and Buffy ("love the hair") More importantly
> though, seeing him finally convinces Buffy to end the whole Spike thing, and
> may I say, it was about damn time.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Complete agreeance here. Am very glad
that she finally told Spike where to go and loved the fact that she called
him William. Ow, that must've hurt.
> But where do we go from here? Although I liked this episode a lot (as I did
> the last two, after the disaster that was "doublemeat palace"), it still
> only concludes the Spike/Buffy stuff. Seven episodes to go people! I really
> get the feeling that Joss is setting up a larger storyline that will be
> concluded no sooner than the end of season 7.
First off, go watch DMP again and allow yourself to get carried away by the
extreme sadness that is Buffy's life. Don't take it too literal and it will
tear you down.
Secondly, if there is one complaint that I have about this season it's the
slowness of it all. The arc that is Buffy figuring out her meaning for
living is dragging and I can't help feeling a little disappointed every week
even though I do still enjoy and love the show. I care about Buffy and
what's happening to her so I'm eating every little grain they give us every
week but I wish they'd give me more and give it faster.
Did anyone notice the name at the bottom of the letter that Buffy received
from college: Surrinda Darkmaster. Heh...
I was wondering, was Dawn already there when Riley left? Forgive me, but I'm
not very good at keeping up with the timelines. Or is the spell that came
with the key still working? If Dawn turned officially human at the end of
S5, then would it make sense that the spell that tricks people into having
memories of her still working?
Oh and is anyone else getting slightly annoyed with Anya and Xander and the
*only* topic they have been talking about for months and months? I think
it's sad and undeserving.
--
Saskia
Jonathan Black
>> But where do we go from here? Although I liked this
>> episode a lot (as I did the last two, after the disaster
>> that was "doublemeat palace"), it still only concludes the
>> Spike/Buffy stuff. Seven episodes to go people! I really
>> get the feeling that Joss is setting up a larger storyline
>> that will be concluded no sooner than the end of season 7.
>
> First off, go watch DMP again and allow yourself to get
> carried away by the extreme sadness that is Buffy's life.
> Don't take it too literal and it will tear you down.
Yeah, I have rewatched it and for me it really isn't that bad an
episode at all.
> Secondly, if there is one complaint that I have about this
> season it's the slowness of it all. The arc that is Buffy
> figuring out her meaning for living is dragging and I can't
> help feeling a little disappointed every week even though I
> do still enjoy and love the show. I care about Buffy and
> what's happening to her so I'm eating every little grain
> they give us every week but I wish they'd give me more and
> give it faster.
True, and also it probably seems even slower than it "really
is", when we don't get a new episode every week, and sometimes
have to wait over up to a month or more for the next one...
> Did anyone notice the name at the bottom of the letter that
> Buffy received from college: Surrinda Darkmaster. Heh...
Nope didn't notice that :)
> I was wondering, was Dawn already there when Riley left?
Yes, he left halfway through S5, and Dawn has been with us since
the beginning of S5.
> Forgive me, but I'm not very good at keeping up with the
> timelines. Or is the spell that came with the key still
> working? If Dawn turned officially human at the end of S5,
> then would it make sense that the spell that tricks people
> into having memories of her still working?
Well, at this point I am inclined to think that most likely the
spell will last forever now, or indeed that it didn't ever need
to "last" or "keep working" at all, but simply to be cast once,
towards the end of episode 501, at that point effectively
changing history including people's memories to make things as
if Dawn had already existed for 14 years.
> Oh and is anyone else getting slightly annoyed with Anya
> and Xander and the *only* topic they have been talking
> about for months and months? I think it's sad and
> undeserving.
A little, yeah.
Bye,
--
jonathaN
Niall Harrison
> Oh and is anyone else getting slightly annoyed with Anya and Xander and the
> *only* topic they have been talking about for months and months? I think
> it's sad and undeserving.
Frankly, I hope they don't get married. As time goes on, I find they're
seeming less and less well-suited to each other. :-/
Niall
--
I bought a ticket to the end of the rainbow.
Mattia Valente
> that she finally told Spike where to go and loved the fact that she called
> him William. Ow, that must've hurt.
So?
/me ducks and runs...
> First off, go watch DMP again and allow yourself to get carried away by the
> extreme sadness that is Buffy's life. Don't take it too literal and it will
> tear you down.
It's still....I dunno, tacky.
> Secondly, if there is one complaint that I have about this season it's the
> slowness of it all. The arc that is Buffy figuring out her meaning for
> living is dragging and I can't help feeling a little disappointed every week
> even though I do still enjoy and love the show.
True. The fact that we've gotten oodles of off-time, and that we
occasionally take a break from it to look at other storylines that,
likewise, aren't advancing quite as speedily as I'd like, doesn't help.
Not the best paced season, that's for sure.
> I care about Buffy and
> what's happening to her so I'm eating every little grain they give us every
> week but I wish they'd give me more and give it faster.
Tja...
> Did anyone notice the name at the bottom of the letter that Buffy received
> from college: Surrinda Darkmaster. Heh...
Actually, I did. Heh.
> I was wondering, was Dawn already there when Riley left?
Duh, yes.
> Forgive me, but I'm
> not very good at keeping up with the timelines. Or is the spell that came
> with the key still working? If Dawn turned officially human at the end of
> S5, then would it make sense that the spell that tricks people into having
> memories of her still working?
Why not? None of the memories anyone had of her seemed to be changed in
any way. Riley left in episode 10 of season 5, by which time Dawn was
long established. 'course, Riley has no clue about the whole 'Key'
thing, what happened to Glory, that Buffy died (and I doubt there was an
awful lot of time to explain everything..)
> Oh and is anyone else getting slightly annoyed with Anya and Xander and the
> *only* topic they have been talking about for months and months? I think
> it's sad and undeserving.
Mostly, X and A are dull, dull, dull.
Mattia Valente
> >> good idea, but in fact it turned out to work very well. It was
> >> great to see him bring out the old Buffy, see him lift her out
> >> of her stuck-in-a-rut-with-Spike-and-the-Doublemeat-Palace state
> >> of depression, in a way that nothing had really succeeded in
> >> doing so so far.
>
> > Hell yes.
>
> About bloody time, I say. I actually enjoyed this one. It was kinda goofy
> in places, but actually went somewhere. Damn, but Doug Petrie should be
> writing more episodes.
Uh-huh. He's good when he's good (Fool for Love, Bad Girls)..his
directing skills seem to need a little honing, though; I wasn't overly
stunned by a lot of the cinematistic choices, TBH. Still, better than
his debut, 'Flooded'.
<Riley, Married Man of Mystery>
> > If anything, I'd argue it reinforces it. It's more of the same 'growing
> > up and moving on' theme, really.
>
> Agreed.
Check.
> >> He told her exactly what he
> >> thought of her current situation, but in a completely non-
> >> judgemental way, and this really helps her wake up to things,
> >> and finally, once and for all (hopefully) she tells Spike that
> >> it is over. Surely she means it this time...
> >
> > GOD, but I hope so.
>
> With a third of the season left to go, I somehow doubt it.
Pessimist. This is the one time it actually felt true, and real. Why?
Because she's honest with herself, honest with Spike. She admits that
she wants him. Admits that she's using him (and he admits to not caring)
but also tells him that what's going on is not of the good. This is
where my worry about 'Spike will go 'good' in order to make things right
with Buffy' comes in, but let's just hope Noxon wasn't lying in that SFX
interview, eh?
;-)
Saskia
What?
> /me ducks and runs...
Not from me I hope. You don't think I was feeling sorry for the guy, were
you?
> > First off, go watch DMP again and allow yourself to get carried away by the
> > extreme sadness that is Buffy's life. Don't take it too literal and it will
> > tear you down.
>
> It's still....I dunno, tacky.
No it really isn't. It's disturbingly sad.
> > I was wondering, was Dawn already there when Riley left?
>
> Duh, yes.
Well I said 'forgive me'.
> > then would it make sense that the spell that tricks people into having
> > memories of her still working?
>
> Why not? None of the memories anyone had of her seemed to be changed in
> any way.
It's true, I realized that later.
> Mostly, X and A are dull, dull, dull.
Yes.
--
Saskia
Mattia Valente
>
> Contains oblique reference to _Angel_ 3x13, 'Waiting In The Wings'
It does?
Yes. This is, by far, the best Riley we've seen. Truly seems to have
found his place, his center, and his goal. And damn but that life looks
more attractive than Buffy's, by a long, long, long shot. I'm hoping
this reality check will result in something positive.
> It's just occured to me that on Sky, this ep will air the same week as
> WITW. Two of the most hated characters return in the same week! :-)
Sorry, but 'huh'?
Angel? Most hated character return? What *are* you talking about?
> > 'End' may be a strong word, but it's changed and moved along enough. She
> > still wants him, but hates what it does to her. Oh boy...now, if we make
> > sure Spike doesn't 'Go Good' (ie, redeem, which would suck total ass)
> > we've got a winning combo. I'm thinking The Redemptionist Doug Petrie
> > fans don't like him quite s'much no more...
>
> Spike is not going to be redeemed. Marti Noxon's comments in the SFX
> Vampire Special would seem to make this abundantly clear...
Please, let her not be toying with us!
> >> But where do we go from here? Although I liked this episode a lot (as I did
> >> the last two, after the disaster that was "doublemeat palace"),
> >
> > Heh..I quite like this ep, mostly for what it does rather than for how
> > it does it.
>
> It was fun. And at this stage, that's about all I ask from _Buffy_. 4.1,
> maybe.
:-/
I'm hoping for something rather more grand for the end of the season
(though I'm not sure I see it..) and a bit of old-fashioned chocolatey
cookie goodness in S7 (boy, I sure think ahead..)
> > It's a weird season, all right. It's got a lot more to do with thematics
> > of growing up, dealing, moving on, with Life itself than with 'larger'
> > issues. And that feels a bit strange, at times.
>
> In any other season, AYW would have been an early-sweeps episode, as
> 'Crush' was last year, perhaps. Then the end of sweeps would have dealt
> with the larger threat. This year, we've just got the soapy bits. *sigh*.
We've got one more to go...this is this year's 'I Was Made to Love You'.
Sorta. But, well, yes. This has important character/growth moments for
Buffy, though, so....not of the bad.
> > We've got Willow to deal
> > with (and AARGH! DAMN THEM for reinforcing the literal-magic-addiction
> > thing! AAARGHH!!!),
>
> Yeah. For a while there, I thought they really were faking us out with the
> Willow-addiction thing, but I guess not. :-(
/me smaps the writers...
Last note: did anyone think that a) Anya looked positively haggard and
b) that the 'If I have to kill everyone..' line was a weak, pale,
lifeless and pathetic imitation of Buffy's line in 'The Prom'?
Mattia Valente
I fear for next week (and no, I'm not spoiled.)
Mattia Valente
> > carried away by the extreme sadness that is Buffy's life.
> > Don't take it too literal and it will tear you down.
>
> Yeah, I have rewatched it and for me it really isn't that bad an
> episode at all.
I still haven't. But I doubt I'll ever love it. Lemme put it this way:
the dark, dank, depressing stuff was great. Brilliant. A number of the
other aspects, a good portion of the character moments (Willow doing
things the old-fashioned way) were good, verging on great, but....it's
no classic.
> True, and also it probably seems even slower than it "really
> is", when we don't get a new episode every week, and sometimes
> have to wait over up to a month or more for the next one...
Damned sweeps....
> > Did anyone notice the name at the bottom of the letter that
> > Buffy received from college: Surrinda Darkmaster. Heh...
>
> Nope didn't notice that :)
Most amusing.
> > I was wondering, was Dawn already there when Riley left?
>
> Yes, he left halfway through S5, and Dawn has been with us since
> the beginning of S5.
Indeed-y.
> Well, at this point I am inclined to think that most likely the
> spell will last forever now, or indeed that it didn't ever need
> to "last" or "keep working" at all, but simply to be cast once,
> towards the end of episode 501, at that point effectively
> changing history including people's memories to make things as
> if Dawn had already existed for 14 years.
Pretty much, yes.
Dieter Schmidt
"Saskia" <sas...@nksf.nl> wrote in message
news:MPG.16e7166d8...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> that she finally told Spike where to go and loved the fact that she called
> him William. Ow, that must've hurt.
Yeah, her calling him William actually slipped my mind. That was a great
moment. Sort of signified that Buffy does see Spike at least partially as a
real person which was a nice touch. Still, the B/S thing had to end. On to
"badder" things for our Spikey :)
> > But where do we go from here? Although I liked this episode a lot (as I
did
> > the last two, after the disaster that was "doublemeat palace"), it still
> > only concludes the Spike/Buffy stuff. Seven episodes to go people! I
really
> > get the feeling that Joss is setting up a larger storyline that will be
> > concluded no sooner than the end of season 7.
>
> First off, go watch DMP again and allow yourself to get carried away by
the
> extreme sadness that is Buffy's life. Don't take it too literal and it
will
> tear you down.
It probably will grow on me when I see it again. My greatest problem isn't
even the story/writing of this episode but the truly terrible special effect
of that snake lady (it really reminded me of the muppet show). Now, I know
that the monsters are not the most important part of the show, that it's
about the characters and their developement, but it truly ruined an episode
that I didn't think was very strong to begin with. Having said that I do
agree that the terrible sadness of Buffy's life at that moment was handled
nicely in DMP.
> Secondly, if there is one complaint that I have about this season it's the
> slowness of it all. The arc that is Buffy figuring out her meaning for
> living is dragging and I can't help feeling a little disappointed every
week
> even though I do still enjoy and love the show. I care about Buffy and
> what's happening to her so I'm eating every little grain they give us
every
> week but I wish they'd give me more and give it faster.
Agreeance with pretty much everything you said there. And I read in one of
Mattia's posts that next week is the last new one? How long are the reruns
going to last this time?
> Oh and is anyone else getting slightly annoyed with Anya and Xander and
the
> *only* topic they have been talking about for months and months? I think
> it's sad and undeserving.
True, the whole X/A storyline doesn't really interest me that much. It's
indeed getting kind of boring. At the start of season 5 Xander was all: "no
more buttmonkey", and he isn't. The trouble is, he isn't much of anything
anymore and that's a true shame.
Dieter
Niall Harrison
One comment about this post:
> <Riley, Married Man of Mystery>
I love this description!
Niall
--
No more worries and doubt, the good will come out.
Niall Harrison
> Niall Harrison wrote:
>>
>> Contains oblique reference to _Angel_ 3x13, 'Waiting In The Wings'
>
> It does?
Now an obvious reference to WITW for the hard of thinking. ;-)
>> It's just occured to me that on Sky, this ep will air the same week as
>> WITW. Two of the most hated characters return in the same week! :-)
>
> Sorry, but 'huh'?
>
> Angel? Most hated character return? What *are* you talking about?
Groo, of course! Turns up at the end of WITW. So Sky viewers are going to
get the return of Riley and the return of Groo in one evening.
>> >> But where do we go from here? Although I liked this episode a lot (as I did
>> >> the last two, after the disaster that was "doublemeat palace"),
>> >
>> > Heh..I quite like this ep, mostly for what it does rather than for how
>> > it does it.
>>
>> It was fun. And at this stage, that's about all I ask from _Buffy_. 4.1,
>> maybe.
>
> :-/
I know, it's depressing. OK, I hope for more, but it's kinda become a
programme I watch out of habit as much as because I really, desperately
want to see it.
> I'm hoping for something rather more grand for the end of the season
> (though I'm not sure I see it..) and a bit of old-fashioned chocolatey
> cookie goodness in S7 (boy, I sure think ahead..)
I would have thought S7 will be good. But it's a bad sign when you're
reduced to looking forward to next season already.
Niall
--
After all there's only one sentimental song.
Niall Harrison
>> > First off, go watch DMP again and allow yourself to get carried away by the
>> > extreme sadness that is Buffy's life. Don't take it too literal and it will
>> > tear you down.
>>
>> It's still....I dunno, tacky.
>
> No it really isn't. It's disturbingly sad.
Only because it's so incredibly dull.
:-)
Niall
--
How did you think this would end?
Niall Harrison
Yeah, but you were worried about the musical.
I'm sure it'll be pretty good; after all, although it's a MN ep, JW
apparently stepped in to rewrite several scenes. So that's a plus.
Haven't got the anticipation that I do for 'Sleep Tight', though.
Niall
--
When memes collide.
Jonathan Black
[Doublemeat Palace]
>> Yeah, I have rewatched it and for me it really isn't that
>> bad an episode at all.
>
> I still haven't. But I doubt I'll ever love it. Lemme put
> it this way: the dark, dank, depressing stuff was great.
> Brilliant. A number of the other aspects, a good portion of
> the character moments (Willow doing things the
> old-fashioned way) were good, verging on great, but....it's
> no classic.
Well, it sounds like we are in agreement then. I'm not calling
it a classic, yet ;-)
Bye,
--
jonathaN
Mattia Valente
I was very, very worried about the musical.
> I'm sure it'll be pretty good; after all, although it's a MN ep, JW
> apparently stepped in to rewrite several scenes. So that's a plus.
Cooool. Jossage!
> Haven't got the anticipation that I do for 'Sleep Tight', though.
Well, no. 'Angel', on a plotting/story/big things happening level, has
the edge over Buffy. Because there's actual story stuff that's begging
for resolution (and a few issues that are, for better or for worse,
being ignored for now. Well, one. Cordy's demonness.), not 'merely'
character stuff with story-lite.
Dieter Schmidt
"Mattia Valente" <mae.v...@std.vu.nl> wrote in message
news:3C7D1171...@std.vu.nl...
> character stuff with story-lite.
Holy crap! In the future remind me that I stop reading once you guys switch
to Angel talk! I'm still at the point were Net5 left us hanging :(
Dieter
Mattia Valente
Ummm...
> > /me ducks and runs...
>
> Not from me I hope. You don't think I was feeling sorry for the guy, were
> you?
Not? Who am I confusing you with, then?
> > > First off, go watch DMP again and allow yourself to get carried away by the
> > > extreme sadness that is Buffy's life. Don't take it too literal and it will
> > > tear you down.
> >
> > It's still....I dunno, tacky.
>
> No it really isn't. It's disturbingly sad.
The DMP is tacky. And kinda gross. Mayhpa that was the point, but it's
still tacky.
> > > I was wondering, was Dawn already there when Riley left?
> >
> > Duh, yes.
>
> Well I said 'forgive me'.
I forgive thee.
> > > then would it make sense that the spell that tricks people into having
> > > memories of her still working?
> >
> > Why not? None of the memories anyone had of her seemed to be changed in
> > any way.
>
> It's true, I realized that later.
Good good...
> > Mostly, X and A are dull, dull, dull.
>
> Yes.
Too bad, really :-/
Niall Harrison
>> > I fear for next week (and no, I'm not spoiled.)
>>
>> Yeah, but you were worried about the musical.
>
> I was very, very worried about the musical.
And see how that turned out? Well then.
>> I'm sure it'll be pretty good; after all, although it's a MN ep, JW
>> apparently stepped in to rewrite several scenes. So that's a plus.
>
> Cooool. Jossage!
Yup. I've heard it reported in several places, so I'm inclined to believe
it.
>> Haven't got the anticipation that I do for 'Sleep Tight', though.
>
> Well, no. 'Angel', on a plotting/story/big things happening level, has
> the edge over Buffy. Because there's actual story stuff that's begging
> for resolution (and a few issues that are, for better or for worse,
> being ignored for now. Well, one. Cordy's demonness.), not 'merely'
> character stuff with story-lite.
Well, CC wanted out of the show for 'personal reasons', which is why she's
not in 'Loyalty' (or, I believe, 'Sleep Tight'). So I'm guessing this is
gonna come back towards the end of the season.
Niall
--
Back off, man - I'm a scientist.
Mattia Valente
/me rolls eyes..
There's some actual good stuff in there. Really.
Mattia Valente
> to Angel talk! I'm still at the point were Net5 left us hanging :(
Oh, f**k....
Sorry.
/me beats himself repeatedly over the head...
Mattia Valente
Oh, duh. See? I'd effectively blocked that part of the ep from my
memory!
> >> It was fun. And at this stage, that's about all I ask from _Buffy_. 4.1,
> >> maybe.
> >
> > :-/
>
> I know, it's depressing. OK, I hope for more, but it's kinda become a
> programme I watch out of habit as much as because I really, desperately
> want to see it.
:-/
> > I'm hoping for something rather more grand for the end of the season
> > (though I'm not sure I see it..) and a bit of old-fashioned chocolatey
> > cookie goodness in S7 (boy, I sure think ahead..)
>
> I would have thought S7 will be good. But it's a bad sign when you're
> reduced to looking forward to next season already.
In a sense, yeah, sorta. I want a bit more greatness, a bit more scale.
I like this, but it's not my mostest favoritest season ever.
Mattia Valente
Occasionaly, I'm good.
Mattia Valente
:-)
> >> Haven't got the anticipation that I do for 'Sleep Tight', though.
> >
> > Well, no. 'Angel', on a plotting/story/big things happening level, has
> > the edge over Buffy. Because there's actual story stuff that's begging
> > for resolution (and a few issues that are, for better or for worse,
> > being ignored for now. Well, one. Cordy's demonness.), not 'merely'
> > character stuff with story-lite.
>
> Well, CC wanted out of the show for 'personal reasons', which is why she's
> not in 'Loyalty' (or, I believe, 'Sleep Tight'). So I'm guessing this is
> gonna come back towards the end of the season.
Hmmmm.......odd. But, uh, oh well.
Shuggie
Really? Occasionally I'm callous and strange.
(Oh come on! You didn't think I'd let *that* one lie did you? ;0)
--
Shug
Her lips were saying 'No' but then I looked into to her eyes
... and her eyes were saying 'read my lips'
- Niles Crane
Mattia Valente
Apparently.
> Occasionally I'm callous and strange.
Well, duh.
> (Oh come on! You didn't think I'd let *that* one lie did you? ;0)
No, not really, no..
Ninia
to read about As you were and then suddenly I read something very
spoilerish about Cordelia. That is not nice I can tell
Please divide your comments in Buffy threads and Angel threads otherwise
I cannot read anything.
--
Ninia
Ninia
>
> Great! Reviews are boring, thoughts are much more fun ;-)
>
> > The return of Riley. No surprise there because of the ever present
> > spoilers. I never really jumped on the "I hate Riley" bandwagon, so I
> > thought it was kinda nice to see him and see that part of Buffy's life
> > some nice banter between him and Buffy ("love the hair") More importantly
> > though, seeing him finally convinces Buffy to end the whole Spike thing, and
> > may I say, it was about damn time.
>
> Couldn't have said it better myself. Complete agreeance here. Am very glad
> that she finally told Spike where to go and loved the fact that she called
> him William. Ow, that must've hurt.
But I don't think she said that to hurt him. It was very surprising she
called him that way yes, but I had the same feeling as Dieter said in
another post: she wanted to honour his humanity. She was very honest with
him, but had no intentions to hurt him.
Maybe it hurt him anyway. I did not see any special hurting effect on him
when she said that. I saw him having difficulties with the whole ending,
not believing it. How will he react when he realizes it is really over..?
In the beginning of their whole relationship I enjoyed it very much.
Wasn't Smashed a wonderful episode? But after that their love making
became more and more automatic and compelling. So okay, it had to end.
I always thought Buffy would have needed something very big to break up
with Spike, but it appeared that she needed her memories of a better life
when she met Riley again to get the insight she really has to stop.
> Secondly, if there is one complaint that I have about this season it's the
> slowness of it all. The arc that is Buffy figuring out her meaning for
> living is dragging and I can't help feeling a little disappointed every week
> even though I do still enjoy and love the show. I care about Buffy and
> what's happening to her so I'm eating every little grain they give us every
> week but I wish they'd give me more and give it faster.
Indeed. It is all going much too slow. I want an every day dosis like now
with s.2.
>
> Did anyone notice the name at the bottom of the letter that Buffy received
> from college: Surrinda Darkmaster. Heh...
I did not understand that. What was that letter about?
--
Ninia
Ninia
> spell will last forever now, or indeed that it didn't ever need
> to "last" or "keep working" at all, but simply to be cast once,
> towards the end of episode 501, at that point effectively
> changing history including people's memories to make things as
> if Dawn had already existed for 14 years.
I must say, I have some problems with that. Spells are okay, but an
everlasting spell changing reality, memories and history for good?
--
Ninia
Saskia
> > that she finally told Spike where to go and loved the fact that she called
> > him William. Ow, that must've hurt.
>
> But I don't think she said that to hurt him. It was very surprising she
> called him that way yes, but I had the same feeling as Dieter said in
> another post: she wanted to honour his humanity. She was very honest with
> him, but had no intentions to hurt him.
Perhaps... maybe you're right. I just don't want Buffy to like Spike, let
alone love him so I guess we both see different things.
> In the beginning of their whole relationship I enjoyed it very much.
> Wasn't Smashed a wonderful episode?
Well yes but not because I *liked* it for them, I liked it because it was so
wrong, so bad and so incredibly disturbing. Or is this what you mean?
> > Did anyone notice the name at the bottom of the letter that Buffy received
> > from college: Surrinda Darkmaster. Heh...
>
> I did not understand that. What was that letter about?
Buffy had written a letter to college to resume her studies but she was
rejected.
--
Saskia
Mattia Valente
First of all, oops, muchas sorry for the Angel spoiler elswhere in the
thread. I'm an idiot. Make sure you read what I spoil for at the top of
space, even if the header's vague, because it may well happen again, but
I WILL mark it if it does.
That's secondary. I don't think Saskia meant that she was out to cause
him pain, but honesty, acknowledging the 'human' side of Spike (the one
he doesn't really like much) is gonna be painful. Very 'ouch'.
> Maybe it hurt him anyway. I did not see any special hurting effect on him
> when she said that. I saw him having difficulties with the whole ending,
> not believing it. How will he react when he realizes it is really over..?
THe disbelief, the pained look on his face, the desparation in his
voice; that was hurt, pure and simple. I think that's all Sas meant. And
I'd go with that.
> In the beginning of their whole relationship I enjoyed it very much.
> Wasn't Smashed a wonderful episode? But after that their love making
> became more and more automatic and compelling.
That wasn't love making. That was animal lust. And sex.
> So okay, it had to end.
> I always thought Buffy would have needed something very big to break up
> with Spike, but it appeared that she needed her memories of a better life
> when she met Riley again to get the insight she really has to stop.
He's bad for her, it's all wrong, the sex may be nice (or great,
whatever), but the results, the lies, the desparation....no. (and you
haven't seen S2 of Angel either, right? Because, like, I'd make an
analogy here if you had.)
> > Did anyone notice the name at the bottom of the letter that Buffy received
> > from college: Surrinda Darkmaster. Heh...
>
> I did not understand that. What was that letter about?
She was too late with her papers, so no College life for Buffy this
season.
Mattia Valente
Why not? It was massive. Why would memories suddenly change back? The
way it was presented, it was a one time deal, not something that needed
to be broken in anyway. And, if we want to 'restore' things, we'd need
to have someone actually end/break this huge spell, which would require
more power than I believe anyone we've seen has. Key-like power. And a
knowledge of the spell.
Saskia
> > But I don't think she said that to hurt him. It was very surprising she
> > called him that way yes, but I had the same feeling as Dieter said in
> > another post: she wanted to honour his humanity. She was very honest with
> > him, but had no intentions to hurt him.
>
> That's secondary. I don't think Saskia meant that she was out to cause
> him pain, but honesty, acknowledging the 'human' side of Spike (the one
> he doesn't really like much) is gonna be painful. Very 'ouch'.
Hmm, I thought she did say it to hurt him. To remind him that he is *not*
human, but evil and that there is no way in hell that she could ever in her
right mind love him.
OTOH, perhaps it was more a message to herself. Perhaps she has been letting
herself believe that there was humanity and goodness and even redemption in
him, in order to excuse herself for having sex with him. But after seeing
Riley and being reminded of how things should be, the shells fell off and
she realized that there is only evil there, caged by the chip and that's why
she called him William. To say goodbye to the fantasy.
--
Saskia
Mattia Valente
Well, true. But she's not being malicious, explicitly, doing so. She's
been harsh, mean, agressive, violent even, with Spike in the past; here
she was none of those things. She was composed, honest, still unhappy,
but coming to terms with herself.
> OTOH, perhaps it was more a message to herself. Perhaps she has been letting
> herself believe that there was humanity and goodness and even redemption in
> him, in order to excuse herself for having sex with him. But after seeing
> Riley and being reminded of how things should be, the shells fell off and
> she realized that there is only evil there, caged by the chip and that's why
> she called him William. To say goodbye to the fantasy.
I like this....
Stephen Walker
When Willow broke Toth's spell she explained that it was the spell holding
things in their unnatural state, it wasn't that hard to fix.
I could accept Dawn and the altered history better if there was more
acknowledgement of the situation than the one line blow-off in Bargaining.
Too far the other way with endless Dawn angsting about her non-existent past
would be horrible though.
Stephen
Mattia Valente
OK....
> I could accept Dawn and the altered history better if there was more
> acknowledgement of the situation than the one line blow-off in Bargaining.
> Too far the other way with endless Dawn angsting about her non-existent past
> would be horrible though.
Heh...this said, nobody ever broke the spell.