hero [spoilers]
george van hal
on Hero.....
spoilers for Hero (Angel s1, ep 9)
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Well what can I say? The words powerfull episode pop to mind.
Unfortunatly the words "nazi demons" do as well.
To start with the negative : The "nazi" demons were way to clearly
metaphors/embodyments of the nazi's of WW2. All that was missing was a
cross, a certain greeting and a small mustache on their leader....
Apart from that obviousness (almost to the point of being tiring and
even insulting to the viewers intellegence) and the fact that the angel
mythology (which is of course also the Buffy mythology) is getting
confusing (pure bred demons, half demons, different demon races,
different demon cultures, evil demons, good demons etc. etc.), this
episode was very strong.
As for the mythology and a storyarc, I hope the events in this episode
will become clearer in eps to come.
As for the episode itself: It was of the good. It was, of course, a more
serious episode, but like I hoped last week it was handled perfectly. No
Lonely heart-ness at all. I liked the way the story line unfolded. For
the first time since angel started, this episode had me glued to my
seat. The tension and anticipation upon first hearing of the pure bred
demons is high, unfortunatly actually seeing them in all of their nazi
"glory" is a bit of a anti climax. The whole refugee thing was good
however, although they could've put more effort into actually showing
them more and showing more of their struggle. This should've been a two
parter.
And then there's the thing I've been dancing around all this time (sort
of the elephant in the room syndrom. All of you who also watch Dawson's
creek will get that (perhaps), the rest won't so don't mind ;-)) :
Doyle.
Argghhhhh!! This episode really formed the character of Doyle. He became
even more sympathatic than he allready was, he became more believable
with the look into his past and he finally revealed his demon self to
cordy (although she found out, so he didn't actually *tell* her) and he
asked her out on a date. It was one of the most important episodes for
his character, and if it hadn't been for one small fact I would be going
on now about how great a character doyle's turning out to be and how I'm
interested to see how he develops in the rest of the season. But
unfortunatly that one small fact is the spoiler most of us have bumped
into on this newsgroup (and outside of this newsgroup for that matter) :
THEY KILLED DOYLE (sorry about the outburst). It's allways frustrating
when an interesting character dies, but at least with jenny calander
they really *used* it. It gave way to the best episode of Buffy ever
(passion) and one of the greatest scenes to date (the telephone call).
Instead they kill of the promising character that doyle was and they
don't *use* it. Yeah the way he goes is heroic, sure. And the last scene
with Cordy and Angel watching the video Doyle recorded earlier is great,
with his words getting a whole new dimension as they watch. But
*where's* the emotion *where* are the gut wrenching scenes *where's* the
pain, *where* is the *point*?? They killed doyle of like an encore. It
was like someone over at mutant enemy went "Hey weren't we supposed to
kill of doyle in this episode?" and they wrote a script to do just that.
This could have been one of the most dramatic and one of the most
beautifull moments in the show so far, and instead it ends with a low. I
can only hope the repercutions of this event are larger in the next
episode, but I fear the worst. Don't get me wrong, I liked this episode
a lot. It was involving, exciting and one of the best episodes of angel
to date and a potential jump of point for the long awaited season story
arc. But the death of Doyle was pointless. It wasn't necesarry at all.
Next weeks episode (parting gifts) seems to be fairly o.k. with Cordy
obviously having Doyle's abilities (we saw something cross over when
they kissed). I hope it'll deal with the events of this episode and I
hope that episode proves me a pessimist. But I fear the worst....
See Ya,
George
P@rick
38FB78FF...@wxs.nl...
Why is this negative? What happened 50 years ago was an embodiment of pure
evil. These things still happen today. And the people who do these things
still dress up in uniforms. So if you want to portray evil forces at work,
ethnic cleansing happening, you can refer to Nazi's because that's what evil
looks like. And that's what people remember evil looks like.
What gets me is the fact that these demons persecuting and killing off
half-demons out of their beliefs, which is frightening enough in the
fictional Buffy/Angelverse, actually took place in the real world.
Ok, maybe these comments are a bit heavy. But the subject touched in Angel,
and the way it was worked out, is actually too serious to handle as just a
fictional storyline.
> Argghhhhh!! This episode really formed the character of Doyle. He became
> even more sympathatic than he allready was, he became more believable
> with the look into his past
At first I didn't even realise we were looking in his past. I thought it
happened after they had found the refugees, and now even his own species
were asking for help.
> THEY KILLED DOYLE (sorry about the outburst). It's allways frustrating
> when an interesting character dies, but at least with jenny calander
> they really *used* it. It gave way to the best episode of Buffy ever
> (passion) and one of the greatest scenes to date (the telephone call).
> Instead they kill of the promising character that doyle was and they
> don't *use* it. Yeah the way he goes is heroic, sure. And the last scene
> with Cordy and Angel watching the video Doyle recorded earlier is great,
> with his words getting a whole new dimension as they watch. But
> *where's* the emotion *where* are the gut wrenching scenes *where's* the
> pain, *where* is the *point*?? They killed doyle of like an encore. It
> was like someone over at mutant enemy went "Hey weren't we supposed to
> kill of doyle in this episode?" and they wrote a script to do just that.
> This could have been one of the most dramatic and one of the most
> beautifull moments in the show so far, and instead it ends with a low. I
> can only hope the repercutions of this event are larger in the next
> episode, but I fear the worst. Don't get me wrong, I liked this episode
> a lot. It was involving, exciting and one of the best episodes of angel
> to date and a potential jump of point for the long awaited season story
> arc. But the death of Doyle was pointless. It wasn't necesarry at all.
Well, Doyle's death was an act of heroism. Maybe the point is that such an
event can happen when you least expect it. The situation turns critical
quickly, and before you realise what happened, someone close to you is dead.
It seems pointless, it seems unreal, but it happens.
But from the viewpoint that the writers decide what happens in the show, I
agree with you. They could have made Doyle's death a much bigger event, much
more meaningful for the show. This appeared rushed. Like Glenn Quinn all of
the sudden decided to quit, and they had to write him out of the show
quickly.
It was nothing compared to the emotionally highly charged 'Passion'.
> Next weeks episode (parting gifts) seems to be fairly o.k. with Cordy
> obviously having Doyle's abilities (we saw something cross over when
> they kissed). I hope it'll deal with the events of this episode and I
> hope that episode proves me a pessimist. But I fear the worst....
And Wesley appears. Is this a good thing or bad thing, we'll see. I didn't
think much of him in Buffy.
Bye, Patrick
arkas...@my-deja.com
> mythology (which is of course also the Buffy mythology) is getting
> confusing (pure bred demons, half demons, different demon races,
> different demon cultures, evil demons, good demons etc. etc
I was thinking the same thing, i thought you needed an ascencion to
become a true pure-blood.
> Doyle.
> Argghhhhh!! This episode really formed the character of Doyle. He
became
> even more sympathatic than he allready was, he became more believable
> with the look into his past and he finally revealed his demon self to
> cordy (although she found out, so he didn't actually *tell* her) and
he
> asked her out on a date. It was one of the most important episodes for
> his character, and if it hadn't been for one small fact I would be
going
> on now about how great a character doyle's turning out to be and how
I'm
> interested to see how he develops in the rest of the season. But
> unfortunatly that one small fact is the spoiler most of us have bumped
> into on this newsgroup (and outside of this newsgroup for that
matter) :
AGREE, AGREE, AGREE!! i couldn't have wrote it better.
Joss has said on several occasions that he planned to kill of Doyle
from the very beginning to "stir things up" and to show that even main
charactures can just die. But other sources say the decision to kill
Doyle was much more sudden.
It seems weird that they would create a characture with so much
potencial and then let him die like this. Atleast it should have been a
two-parter.
I wonder if will ever find out the truth about the desicion.
> Next weeks episode (parting gifts) seems to be fairly o.k. with Cordy
> obviously having Doyle's abilities (we saw something cross over when
> they kissed). I hope it'll deal with the events of this episode and I
> hope that episode proves me a pessimist. But I fear the worst....
very spiolerish "next week on Angel" bit. Wesley was definitely my
least favorite person on Buffy, so i fear as well.
>
> See Ya,
> George
Arkasha
"He said: pour me out some whiskey man, there's some thing you should
know.
The person that you take me for was buried long ago.
Live...
Tombstone, damage done.
How beautiful the poetry, how beautiful the prose.
This is where the story ends and this is where it goes..."
---dEUS---
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Peter Kleiweg
> george van hal <hal0...@wxs.nl> schreef in berichtnieuws
> 38FB78FF...@wxs.nl...
> > Well what can I say? The words powerfull episode pop to mind.
> > Unfortunatly the words "nazi demons" do as well.
> > To start with the negative : The "nazi" demons were way to clearly
> > metaphors/embodyments of the nazi's of WW2. All that was missing was a
> > cross, a certain greeting and a small mustache on their leader....
>
> Why is this negative? What happened 50 years ago was an embodiment of pure
> evil. These things still happen today. And the people who do these things
> still dress up in uniforms. So if you want to portray evil forces at work,
> ethnic cleansing happening, you can refer to Nazi's because that's what evil
> looks like. And that's what people remember evil looks like.
Just look around. Real evil today has nothing to do with Nazi Germany.
It was used as a cliche, nothing to do with what really happened
in WW2. It was cheap, insensitive, treating something real as if
it where merely dark folktale. Nothing but imagery picked from
C-grade movies.
--
Peter Kleiweg | P e t r o n o m i c o n |
e-mail: invalid -> nl | http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg |
Guardian of Spike's Innocence, and his Dislike of Puppies
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I'm probably the only girl in school who has the coroner's office
bookmarked as a favorite place.
-- Willow, Some Assembly Required
P@rick
Pine.LNX.4.21.00041...@kleigh.nl...
> P@rick skriver...
> > george van hal <hal0...@wxs.nl> schreef in berichtnieuws
> > 38FB78FF...@wxs.nl...
> > > spoilers for Hero (Angel s1, ep 9)
I wouldn't say nothing. Kosovo springs to mind.
> It was used as a cliche, nothing to do with what really happened
> in WW2. It was cheap, insensitive, treating something real as if
> it where merely dark folktale. Nothing but imagery picked from
> C-grade movies.
I agree that the historical events are often misused in cheap movies. And
I'm not a fan of using Nazi references in movies and series just for the
sake of it. But with this particular theme, persecution and ethnic
cleansing, it fits. Maybe the demons actually got their ideas from '40-'45.
It's like a demon version of the Neo-Nazi's that still exist, or the AWB in
South Africa.
Whether this theme should be dealt with in a series like Angel is debatable.
But when it is, references to Nazi ideology and imagery aren't necessarily
wrong.
Bye, Patrick
P@rick
8dhfa5$7jh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
spoilers for Hero (Angel s1, ep 9) AND mild spoilers rest of season
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> It seems weird that they would create a characture with so much
> potencial and then let him die like this. Atleast it should have been a
> two-parter.
> I wonder if will ever find out the truth about the desicion.
The following is from an interview with Tim Minear, writer / producer of
Angel. Should be true enough:
At what point was it decided to bring Alexis in? Was he always intended to
appear in the second half of the season or were you originally planning on
developing Angel and Cordy as a duo post Doyle?
TM: We knew very early that we were going to kill off Doyle. All the
character development which led up to that moment was written with that
impending death in mind. The notion to bring in Wesley came slightly later.
We never planned for "Angel" to be the Angel/Cordy show. In fact, by the end
of the season you'll see that we've been adding characters all year long.
Wesley is one of them. But just one.
and another interesting question:
Will you be trying a story 'arc' next season or sticking to mainly self
contained stories?
TM: We'll be doing both
So this means they're not really doing a story arc this season. But I think
that's already clear (not counting Wolfram & Hart as a real story arc).
Bye, Patrick
Peter Kleiweg
> Peter Kleiweg schreef:
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> > Just look around. Real evil today has nothing to do with Nazi Germany.
>
> I wouldn't say nothing. Kosovo springs to mind.
Ignoring the fact that present day Germany is more democratic than,
say, France or the USA.
--
Peter Kleiweg | P e t r o n o m i c o n |
e-mail: invalid -> nl | http://www.let.rug.nl/~kleiweg |
Guardian of Spike's Innocence, and his Dislike of Puppies
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Doyle: I've been sent... By the Powers That Be.
Angel: The powers that be what?
-- City of
P@rick
Pine.LNX.4.21.00041...@kleigh.nl...
>
> > Peter Kleiweg schreef:
> >
> > I wouldn't say nothing. Kosovo springs to mind.
>
> Ignoring the fact that present day Germany is more democratic than,
> say, France or the USA.
Not ignoring the fact, just not mentioning it. What I meant was that the
evil that occured during the Nazi regime, ethnic cleansing, still happens
today in Kosovo, be it in a slightly different form.
Bye, Patrick