The job of faith (was Re: Neuroscience and Consciousness)
Tang Huyen
Awaken21 wrote:
> Yes, science tells me that religion does one of two things to a
> person, it makes them happier and opens up their minds or it has no
> effect on their happiness and closes their minds.
Not quite. Polls often find religious people (in the USA,
Christians) being happier than the average people. I
believe that it is not the specific content of a faith that
does the job, but just plain faith of any kind, regardless
of content, as it unifies the mind and fights dispersion
or doubt, and these tend to be painful. If you are sure
of what you do, if you believe in what you do (and
religion helps in that direction, regardless of its specific
content), you are going to be happier than otherwise.
Tang Huyen
Tang Huyen
"^@%>---*=#" wrote:
> "Tang Huyen"
>
> > Awaken21:
> unfortunately a happiness based upon a conceptual
> platform such as faith or religion is most likely a
> conditional happiness and not worth pursuing since
> at any time conditions can and do change and thus
> any conditional happiness tends to waver with changes
> that occur. having faith or believing in your religion can
> only negotiate an arena of problems in that you are
> buffeted to and fro like being the pinball in a pinball
> game and such happiness is only viable when pre-set
> conditions are auspicious or favorable and you have
> convinced yourself that said favorable conditions are
> what is necessary to satisfying that narcissistic core of
> the ego which holds dear to its heart its security, safety
> and survival addictions, and how long do these addictions
> last even when satisfied? maybe a hundred years? compare
> that hundred years of conditional happiness with the age of
> this physical universe. one hundred years isn't even a blink of
> the cosmic eye by comparison. true happiness is what you
> already are. no conditions or seeking are necessary at all.
> in fact, seeking what you already are and placing conditions
> upon it is truly ridiculous.
All that is true. Faith-with-a-specific-content only
provides conditional happiness, regardless of that
specific content. Faith-without-content is mere
opening up in a dumb, trusting, prayerful attitude
without specifying whatever it is (or is not) that
one opens oneself up to. One humbly opens
oneself up, without knowing whatever it is (or is
not) that one opens oneself up to.
Tang Huyen
^@%>---*=#
"Tang Huyen" <tang...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4780F63A...@gmail.com...
thus faith is simply a tool for the insecure,
a voodoo of the mind, a simple wish and hope
platform that seeks unnecessary objects or
mental platforms that will only call for more
and more of the same, a degradation factor
in retrograde promoting similar pitfalls and
potholes along the way.
Richard Corfield
>>
>> All that is true. Faith-with-a-specific-content only
>> provides conditional happiness, regardless of that
>> specific content. Faith-without-content is mere
>> opening up in a dumb, trusting, prayerful attitude
>> without specifying whatever it is (or is not) that
>> one opens oneself up to. One humbly opens
>> oneself up, without knowing whatever it is (or is
>> not) that one opens oneself up to.
>
> a voodoo of the mind, a simple wish and hope
> platform that seeks unnecessary objects or
> mental platforms that will only call for more
> and more of the same, a degradation factor
> in retrograde promoting similar pitfalls and
> potholes along the way.
Are there two meanings of the word Faith being used here? The dogmatic
"I believe in this external set of conditions / things", and the more
internal. After all if you are willing to humbly open up even if you
don't specify to what do you have some faith in that action?
You can explore I suppose - try the meditation and see what happens -
but maybe there is some element of faith in that.
The other aspect of faith - the dogmatic / religion kind - can become so
close to world view. Is a world view that contains gods inherently
better or worse than a world view that contains karma and rebirth? It
seems possible to act in a good or bad way from either position, to have
suffering or peace.
- Richard
--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard Corfield <Richard....@gmail.com>
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ except in the Twilight Zone
Tang Huyen
Richard Corfield wrote:
> ^@%>---*=#:
Jen (^@%>---*=#) has worded her statement somewhat
unilaterally. What you say is more reasonable. Unspecified,
contentless faith is humble opening up, and doesn't specify
what it opens up to, but merely opens up. It does not lay
down conditions, does not set up limits, but only opens up
without knowing ahead of time what it opens up to. In
doing so, it has dropped all that it knows so far, and is
willing to take whatever comes. In my experience, if prior
knowledge is very sure of itself, as in any form of
dogmatism, including scientific dogmatism, that certainty
hinders opening up. In opening up, one has to drop all that
one has learnt so far, from science to religion, and humbly
open up in a dumb, trusting, prayerful attitude.
Tang Huyen
Tang Huyen
Ali wrote:
> Tang Huyen:
>
> >Awaken21:
> that kind of happiness is overrated. As is drunkenness.
Yes, it is the opiate for the masses, but the masses
are unlikely to get to contentless, unspecified faith.
Tang Huyen
^@%>---*=#
"Richard Corfield" <Richard....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:slrnfo2ivg.4pb....@gateway.internal.littondale.dyndns.org...
faith is simply belief no matter what connotations
are cemented to it. belief is too slippery to really
be relied upon especially if the thing believed in
comes to pass since then there is no need for
the faith or the belief. if the thing doesn't come to
pass then all you'll ever have is your faith or your
belief. faith is like hope. they both boil down to
a basic fear.
^@%>---*=#
faith is just a fancy polite term for fear.
oxtail
To whom?
--
~Oxtail
Ali
wrote:
Does your dog have faith in you?
^@%>---*=#
"Ali" <lal...@yayaya.com> wrote in message
news:qc73o3pg5dukrj0fu...@4ax.com...
it's his pipe and slippers
jfe...@googlemail.com
> "Tang Huyen" <tanghu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
It depends what you're trying to imply by saying they're the same
thing. There's naturally fear there about opening up otherwise we
would simply open up and that would be it. I think that level of fear
is down to the individual. My experience of it is the more open I am
the less fear there is and less faith is needed. I mean genuine
openness not something that's forced. So maybe they're related or the
same thing I don't know. To me it doesn't make any difference.
There can be another way to think about faith if we are totally open
and fearless. There can be faith that things can take care of
themselves and we don't need to interfere with it. But then that's
just naming it as something and doesn't matter either.
Richard Corfield
Aren't they more opposite forces. They probably act at the same time,
but both will be there.
That is not to confuse the internal attitude or feeling of faith with
externally provided fear that some religions may call faith.
For a given act there is some faith that it will or may work, and some
fear that it won't. They balance. Without the fear, or without weighing
it up and maybe even deciding that it is unfounded, would you be reckless?
I have faith that my next breath will have enough oxygen to keep me
going a bit longer, and no fear that there will be any nasties as I'm
not that paranoid. Extreme example.
I can have some tentative faith that practicing meditation will be
beneficial, and can choose to reject the fears that some excessively
evangelical Christians try to spread about it even though I know that
there are some paths that even the meditating religions warn against. If
concentration was dangerous we'd see things like "Top snooker player
suffers kundalini accident on TV" which we don't.
Fear would stop me trying to walk on air over a cliff edge. It would
also make be very very hesitant about following a guru.
So many of these things conditioned. Some useful.
Keynes
Everyone has faith even if only that the
mundane earth will be here, flat as ever, tomorrow.
Scientific materialism is a faith that the world
is understandable and that we understand it.
It's belief. Everybody has one.
^@%>---*=#
> On 2008-01-06, ^@%>---*=# <yom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> faith is just a fancy polite term for fear.
>
> Aren't they more opposite forces. They probably act at the same time,
> but both will be there.
>
> That is not to confuse the internal attitude or feeling of faith with
> externally provided fear that some religions may call faith.
>
> For a given act there is some faith that it will or may work, and some
> fear that it won't. They balance. Without the fear, or without weighing
> it up and maybe even deciding that it is unfounded, would you be reckless?
>
> I have faith that my next breath will have enough oxygen to keep me
> going a bit longer, and no fear that there will be any nasties as I'm
> not that paranoid. Extreme example.
>
> I can have some tentative faith that practicing meditation will be
> beneficial, and can choose to reject the fears that some excessively
> evangelical Christians try to spread about it even though I know that
> there are some paths that even the meditating religions warn against. If
> concentration was dangerous we'd see things like "Top snooker player
> suffers kundalini accident on TV" which we don't.
>
> Fear would stop me trying to walk on air over a cliff edge. It would
> also make be very very hesitant about following a guru.
>
> So many of these things conditioned. Some useful.
fear is the impetus for faith. no fear, no need
for any faith. buddhists fear their suffering so
they have faith that their practice will end that
which they fear. you have faith that your next
breath will contain enough oxygen to keep
you going thus your faith stems from your
fear of death and so on. faith can only arise
in the midst of one fear or another.
^@%>---*=#
"Keynes" <Key...@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
news:nu74o3heu66jt39ja...@4ax.com...
aside from your need to asign tribal herding
fears to everyone without their permission
this is just more of those security and survival
addictions talking. you know, the ones you
always like to tell me that you don't have.
^@%>---*=#
<jfe...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:97920d25-a189-4699...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
you don't need faith if you are fearless. faith only
comes into play if you fear something. zen states
that all fear is delusion thus this would make all
faith delusional.
Hollywood Lee
>
> Everyone has faith even if only that the
> mundane earth will be here, flat as ever, tomorrow.
> Scientific materialism is a faith that the world
> is understandable and that we understand it.
> It's belief. Everybody has one.
Gil Fronsdal gives a talk about faith/saddha - see
http://www.audiodharma.org/mp3files/2007-11-11_GilFronsdal_SaddhaFaithKnowledge.mp3
- in which he notes that another translation for saddha/faith is confidence.
Ultimately, he comes back to preferring the word faith over confidence,
but I tend to like the idea of confidence in that it speaks to me of a
confidence born of a practice-based experience and doesn't carry the
unfortunate theistic/dogmatic baggage that the word faith has acquired.
^@%>---*=#
"Hollywood Lee" <hollyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fltgau$p7g$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
and why is there a need for confidence?
Hollywood Lee
A need? I don't think I described it as a need, but it does fit with
your favorite thesis of addictionalitiesismestness.
^@%>---*=#
confidence is only brought out in the face of fear.
what is it that you fear?
oxtail
What fear drives you
to talk as if you understand these things?
--
~Oxtail
Hollywood Lee
A rather silly statement - but par for the course here, eh?
> what is it that you fear?
Snakes on a plane.
Robert Epstein
Confidence is indeed "faith" in something that has been practiced and
verified. And that is the kind of "faith" that is required in Buddhism.
Robert
- - - - - - - - - -
oxtail
Is this your security and survival addictions talking?
--
~Oxtail
Robert Epstein
You know what I hate even worse?
Snakes in a pit!
Robert
= = = = = = = = =
oxtail
Is this your security and survival addiction talking?
--
~Oxtail
^@%>---*=#
apparently you fear being honest
^@%>---*=#
"oxtail" <oxt...@newvessel.com> wrote in message
news:7oGdncbxA7sR1x_a...@ptd.net...
we just can't get you up to
speed no matter what,
can we?
^@%>---*=#
maybe the same one that has you asking
needless questions ad nauseum ad infinitum
Hollywood Lee
LOL. Dang. I almost killed another laptop by spraying tea on the keyboard.
Hollywood Lee
Yeah. Of course, an attitude of confidence, if unquestioned, can easily
slide into an attitude of over-confidence or misplaced confidence.
oxtail
Stuck in the traffic?
Turn the engine off and walk away.
--
~Oxtail
oxtail
For a person who knows everything about others,
you don't know much about yourself, do you?
--
~Oxtail
^@%>---*=#
hmmm. fear of being honest,
fear of spraying tea and fear
of snakes on a plane. seems
you already have quite the full
plate so i guess i'll just leave you
to it.
^@%>---*=#
and fear that one is not confident enough
^@%>---*=#
so now you're afraid of traffic
and driving?
^@%>---*=#
why would you be afraid
of that?
Keynes
People don't live in fear.
Fear is an occasional occurance.
And we don't naturally fear death.
We just fear pain.
However, as much as one thinks about
the course of things in samsara then
fear of things not present will arise.
Hollywood Lee
Oh yeah. I also forgot this one - running out of cardamon and cumin.
How about you?
oxtail
Why don't you look at
the effect of your presence here?
--
~Oxtail
^@%>---*=#
there you go again speaking for everyone.
i wonder sometimes how you can honestly
get away with that.
> Fear is an occasional occurance.
is this more speaking for everyone?
> And we don't naturally fear death.
> We just fear pain.
that 'we' is a dead give away that you
are again attempting to speak for
everyone.
> However, as much as one thinks about
> the course of things in samsara then
> fear of things not present will arise.
how'd you move from 'we' to 'one' ?
did you relinquish your speaking for
everyone agenda?
^@%>---*=#
i fear ultimate enlightenment and immortality.
hate to think i'd have to write here every day
until eternity.
oxtail
Still listening to sad songs?
--
~Oxtail
Benjamin
If we all knew how many killfiles we're in, I'm sure we'd all be
enlightened.
Ben
Keynes
I'm sorry.
That's exactly what you do, over and over.
I strongly disagree with your premise.
>this is just more of those security and survival
>addictions talking. you know, the ones you
You are getting creepy with your addictions nonsense.
If you feel fearful and insecure all the time, I'm sorry.
But that has nothing to do with me.
>always like to tell me that you don't have.
You're not talking about me but about yourself.
Fear is not the great motivator of anyone.
It comes and goes. And it's fear of pain, not death.
Fear of death is a passing thought in samsara,
not a continual drumbeat.
What makes you think you know what moves people?
If you could tell me why you scratch your nose
without bringing up that a posteriori itch excuse,
then maybe I'd believe you know what you're
talking about. (That ain't gonna happen is it?)
Keynes
Put the fear of survival addictions into him, bro.
Lethal injection coming right up.
oxtail
It's o.k. to have an agenda or two.
But of course,
it's better to awaken to here and now.
Fear tends to feed on itself.
Attachment tends to feed on itself.
It would help to be thoughtless
once in a while.
--
~Oxtail
^@%>---*=#
i freely admit to inherent survival and security
addictions. you imply that i'm pointing out
things in others that i deny myself. if i didn't
have those addictions i wouldn't bother getting
up every day and going to work. you are the
one in denial. why you refuse to admit that is
simply more fear.
Hollywood Lee
Oh, I get it. By "honest" you mean dissembling. Mister Mxyzptlk
applauds you.
Keynes
>
>"Hollywood Lee" <hollyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:fltgau$p7g$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>> Keynes wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Everyone has faith even if only that the
>>> mundane earth will be here, flat as ever, tomorrow.
>>> Scientific materialism is a faith that the world
>>> is understandable and that we understand it.
>>> It's belief. Everybody has one.
>>
>> Gil Fronsdal gives a talk about faith/saddha - see
>> http://www.audiodharma.org/mp3files/2007-11-11_GilFronsdal_SaddhaFaithKnowledge.mp3 -
>> in which he notes that another translation for saddha/faith is confidence.
>>
>> Ultimately, he comes back to preferring the word faith over confidence,
>> but I tend to like the idea of confidence in that it speaks to me of a
>> confidence born of a practice-based experience and doesn't carry the
>> unfortunate theistic/dogmatic baggage that the word faith has acquired.
>
>and why is there a need for confidence?
Without it the flywheel of your mind
gets unbalanced and you constantly
shiver with inexplicable anxiety.
This is an uncommon malady.
^@%>---*=#
now you're afraid of thought?
^@%>---*=#
yin yang's balancing act seems to be
lacking somehow when there is one
super hero but dozens of evil doers.
must be the balance of power. the
one super hero must have an equal
amount of power to the totality of the
bad guys.
^@%>---*=#
then the need for confidence is
simply more fear. zen says that fear
is delusion thus the need for confidence
is just more delusion.
Keynes
Good Grief!
Aren't you the guy who says that Everyone
is addicted to survival and that Everyone
live in fear? Everyone. Everyone.
The first few hundred times such BS
can be excused, but there is a limit.
And now you say that your warts and
pimples belong to me. No thank you.
Cherish them in fearful addiction.
^@%>---*=#
nice projection
Keynes
I'm beginning to fear you.
Release me, Demon of Fearful Universal Destruction!
(Or of addiction. Whichever is convenient.
I'm home on mondays and wednesdays and
all the other days as well. Wear a toupe and
false beard, and I'll let you in.)
^@%>---*=#
must have something good at home
to spend all of that time there. i'd
probably do the same if i could convince
my place of employment to mail me my
check every week without showing up
for work.
jfe...@googlemail.com
> "Keynes" <Key...@earthlinkspam.net> wrote in message
>
> news:44m4o3po04i93eqdj...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:39:16 -0500, "^@%>---*=#" <yom...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >>news:fltgau$p7g$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
> >>> Keynes wrote:
>
> >>>> Everyone has faith even if only that the
> >>>> mundane earth will be here, flat as ever, tomorrow.
> >>>> Scientific materialism is a faith that the world
> >>>> is understandable and that we understand it.
> >>>> It's belief. Everybody has one.
>
> >>> Gil Fronsdal gives a talk about faith/saddha - see
> >>> in which he notes that another translation for saddha/faith is
> >>> confidence.
>
> >>> Ultimately, he comes back to preferring the word faith over confidence,
> >>> but I tend to like the idea of confidence in that it speaks to me of a
> >>> confidence born of a practice-based experience and doesn't carry the
> >>> unfortunate theistic/dogmatic baggage that the word faith has acquired.
>
> >>and why is there a need for confidence?
>
> > Without it the flywheel of your mind
> > gets unbalanced and you constantly
> > shiver with inexplicable anxiety.
> > This is an uncommon malady.
>
> then the need for confidence is
> simply more fear. zen says that fear
> is delusion thus the need for confidence
> is just more delusion.
Fear, delusion, survival, so what? The way you talk about it you seem
to judge it and make it wrong or bad. To me it's better not to judge
any of that one way or the other. Fear is trying to protect us even if
it's from something that's imagined. What do you fear the most, death
or falling apart?
Wompom
> Good Grief!
>
> Aren't you the guy who says that Everyone
> is addicted to survival and that Everyone
> live in fear? Everyone. Everyone.
>
> The first few hundred times such BS
> can be excused, but there is a limit.
Way to go kemosabe!
(Every day she sounds more and more like Tang before he took 'The Cure')
....
Wompom
news:13o4ob0...@corp.supernews.com...
nice projection
^@%>---*=#
Keynes
I am not you.
I hope this isn't news to you.
As far as why we do things, you don't know.
You have a not uncommon theory about it,
but that's really just the cultural rationalization.
Why does a baby coming out of a watery place
begin to breathe the air? Why does the baby know
it needs to eat with it's mouth, although it never
felt any hunger before and really doesn't even
know it has a mouth? We act and react, and
make up all kinds of rational explanations so
we can claim credit and blame for our 'actions'.
Not a bit of that common rational nonsense is true.
I'm sorry you think of fear and drudgery. That's
all it is, just a thought and opinion. The difference
between work and play is simply attitude.
Get some good attitude, bro.
^@%>---*=#
after i force people to read my posts
i force them to react emotionally
since after they read me they relinquish
control of their emotional stability
to me and when they allow that they
then get just what they deserve.
Wompom
thank you 8)
^@%>---*=#
certainly gets you up on your
haunches
> Why does a baby coming out of a watery place
> begin to breathe the air? Why does the baby know
> it needs to eat with it's mouth, although it never
> felt any hunger before and really doesn't even
> know it has a mouth? We act and react, and
> make up all kinds of rational explanations so
> we can claim credit and blame for our 'actions'.
> Not a bit of that common rational nonsense is true.
>
> I'm sorry you think of fear and drudgery. That's
> all it is, just a thought and opinion. The difference
> between work and play is simply attitude.
> Get some good attitude, bro.
like your good attitude of denial?
no thanks.
Wompom
You sound like a dominatrix?
AH HA!
^@%>---*=#
i can sound like whatever the lapse in
your emotional stability addiction can
allow.
Lee Rudolph
>Keynes wrote:
>
>>
>> Everyone has faith even if only that the
>> mundane earth will be here, flat as ever, tomorrow.
>> Scientific materialism is a faith that the world
>> is understandable and that we understand it.
>> It's belief. Everybody has one.
>
>Gil Fronsdal gives a talk about faith/saddha - see
>http://www.audiodharma.org/mp3files/2007-11-11_GilFronsdal_SaddhaFaithKnowledge.mp3
>- in which he notes that another translation for saddha/faith is confidence.
>
>Ultimately, he comes back to preferring the word faith over confidence,
>but I tend to like the idea of confidence in that it speaks to me of a
>confidence born of a practice-based experience and doesn't carry the
>unfortunate theistic/dogmatic baggage that the word faith has acquired.
Of course, the "-fid-" in the middle of "confidence" goes right
back to _fideo_.
Unless you would rather think of it as a sailor's implement
for untying knots. Which is a rather nice thought, actually.
Lee Rudolph
Lee Rudolph
>Robert Epstein wrote:
...
>>
>> Confidence is indeed "faith" in something that has been practiced and
>> verified. And that is the kind of "faith" that is required in Buddhism.
>
>Yeah. Of course, an attitude of confidence, if unquestioned, can easily
>slide into an attitude of over-confidence or misplaced confidence.
Compare and contrast "faith healer" and "confidence trickster".
Lee Rudolph
Wompom
Ever had sex and not cared if you lived or died?
jfe...@googlemail.com
If you believe deserving and non deserving exists then you're gonna
have to apply it to yourself.
oxtail
You are having way too many unhealthy ones.
--
~Oxtail
^@%>---*=#
are you starting a new cult?
jerry
if there is faith there has to be doubt
if there is doubt there is fear
without doubt all is clear
apology for breaking into your
conversation, no disrespect intended
looking forward to your reply
^@%>---*=#
now you're afraid of bad health?
you'll just have to learn how to
enjoy your suffering instead of
blowing it all out of proportion
like that.
Wompom
I wish!
I am far too nice and don't have the stamina! (Niceness addiction!)
You could be the resident Dominatrix for AB's cult though?
Seriously though endless repitition in this forum is boring (though not
nearly as boring as my job!)
(Seriousness addiction)
(Wasting time addiction)
(I should be working - procrastination addiction)
Hmmm - Maybe you are on to something after all?
oxtail
You do know that
you are being pitied,
don't you?
--
~Oxtail
^@%>---*=#
<jfe...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:54dc4e11-452b-4277...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
if fear is indeed just delusion
it would behoove us to relinquish
it, that's all. no need to live under
the guise of delusion.
^@%>---*=#
<jfe...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:72b24278-f676-4a08...@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
i deserve every non-deserving
thing on my plate.
^@%>---*=#
keep at it, you'll get it.
^@%>---*=#
why present me with your problem?
oxtail
What happened to "We are all One"?
--
~Oxtail
^@%>---*=#
so your pity is for you?
jfe...@googlemail.com
> <jfez...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
This is a biggie isn't it? This deserving and non deserving thing is
an invention pure and simple. It doesn't exist. It's the one thing
I've seen Tang pushing that concerns me and now you're pushing it. It
causes allot of pain this one. It can be a big relief to see through
this and let it go. It only needs to be looked at to see if it really
exists or not.
oxtail
Why not?
We all have been lost.
Get a hold of yourself
and enjoy what you got
here and now.
--
~Oxtail
Hollywood Lee
Fideo - as in? http://www.cooks.com/rec/view/0,1726,144173-254206,00.html
Keynes
>
>"Hollywood Lee" <hollyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:fltk9m$dh9$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>> ^@%>---*=# wrote:
>>>
>>> "Hollywood Lee" <hollyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:fltie5$3b2$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>> ^@%>---*=# wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Hollywood Lee" <hollyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:flthoa$vsp$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>>> ^@%>---*=# wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Hollywood Lee" <hollyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:fltha4$t40$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>>>>> ^@%>---*=# wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Hollywood Lee" <hollyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:fltgau$p7g$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>>>>>>> Keynes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone has faith even if only that the
>>>>>>>>>>> mundane earth will be here, flat as ever, tomorrow.
>>>>>>>>>>> Scientific materialism is a faith that the world
>>>>>>>>>>> is understandable and that we understand it.
>>>>>>>>>>> It's belief. Everybody has one.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Gil Fronsdal gives a talk about faith/saddha - see
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.audiodharma.org/mp3files/2007-11-11_GilFronsdal_SaddhaFaithKnowledge.mp3 -
>>>>>>>>>> in which he notes that another translation for saddha/faith is
>>>>>>>>>> confidence.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ultimately, he comes back to preferring the word faith over
>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but I tend to like the idea of confidence in that it
>>>>>>>>>> speaks to me of a confidence born of a practice-based experience
>>>>>>>>>> and doesn't carry the unfortunate theistic/dogmatic baggage that
>>>>>>>>>> the word faith has acquired.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and why is there a need for confidence?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A need? I don't think I described it as a need, but it does fit
>>>>>>>> with your favorite thesis of addictionalitiesismestness.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> confidence is only brought out in the face of fear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A rather silly statement - but par for the course here, eh?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> what is it that you fear?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Snakes on a plane.
>>>>>
>>>>> apparently you fear being honest
>>>>
>>>> LOL. Dang. I almost killed another laptop by spraying tea on the
>>>> keyboard.
>>>
>>> hmmm. fear of being honest,
>>> fear of spraying tea and fear
>>> of snakes on a plane. seems
>>> you already have quite the full
>>> plate so i guess i'll just leave you
>>> to it.
>>
>>
>> Oh yeah. I also forgot this one - running out of cardamon and cumin. How
>> about you?
>
>i fear ultimate enlightenment and immortality.
>hate to think i'd have to write here every day
>until eternity.
Eternity is >< this big.
Hollywood Lee
How many words, and is this graded or pass/fail?
Keynes
Confidence is not an added on delusive quality.
It the natural undisturbed state.
Keynes
What do you suppose I'm denying?
Richard Corfield
>
> you don't need faith if you are fearless. faith only
> comes into play if you fear something. zen states
> that all fear is delusion thus this would make all
> faith delusional.
>
Faith and fear in equal and opposite directions, a Newton's Third Law
of Faith? Though not always - fear can exceed faith. I wonder if that
gives us Newton's second law (or was it the first?) and some acceleration?
- Richard
--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard Corfield <Richard....@gmail.com>
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ except in the Twilight Zone
Tang Huyen
jfe...@googlemail.com wrote:
> "^@%>---*=#":
>
> > <jfez...@googlemail.com>
>
> > > "^@%>---*=#":
>
> > >> after i force people to read my posts
> > >> i force them to react emotionally
> > >> since after they read me they relinquish
> > >> control of their emotional stability
> > >> to me and when they allow that they
> > >> then get just what they deserve.
>
> > > If you believe deserving and non deserving exists then
> > > you're gonna have to apply it to yourself.
>
> > i deserve every non-deserving
> > thing on my plate.
>
> This is a biggie isn't it? This deserving and non deserving thing
> is an invention pure and simple. It doesn't exist. It's the one
> thing I've seen Tang pushing that concerns me and now you're
> pushing it. It causes allot of pain this one. It can be a big relief
> to see through this and let it go. It only needs to be looked at
> to see if it really exists or not.
Nah. There are a few classes of people whom I tackle.
The first is the class of biggies and meanies, bullies who
barge around bashing people without any provocation.
The second is the class of people who make claims, like
"full enlightenment". These two classes tend to overlap.
I refrain from tackling the nice people and the small
people. And when I tackle the biggies and meanies, I
turn their own norms and standards against them, so that
I only mirror them back to themselves, and they take
great offence at that.
I wrote (on 5 Aug 2006, and Jigme [the fake
DharmaTroll] reproduced this, on 26 Nov 2006 and in
a slightly different form, on 7 Jan 2007):
<<I imagine (and this can perfectly be my delusion) that
some people felt ahead of time that they were about to
crash and break up or down, and came to TRB to crash
and break up or down in front of the public, as if they had
wanted witnesses to their crash and break up or down.>>
In hindsight, the bullies who come to TRB to crash are
bound at length to crash and lose their energy, so that they
cannot barge around to bash people any more. It may take
some years, but they will gnaw themselves up from the
inside and become inoperative from their own side.
These boards serve as an exaggeration and exacerbation
of Buddhist cultivation, in that if one follows the bad path,
one runs oneself to the ground and if one follows the
good path, one thrives, and in either case, one only does
it to oneself, though these boards will amplify one's
proclictivities all the way. They are definitely very bad
for one if one can't control oneself, which is the case with
many biggies and meanies. It is easy for them to get
carried away, ego and all, and once they get decentred
and destabilised, they tend to get even more decentred
and destabilised, and so on, recursively. These boards
can entice such people into spiraling lunacy without
them being wiser about it. Before they know it, they have
already lost their energy and their intelligence.
On these boards there are many people who fight by body
combat, in that they throw punches all over and hope that
some will land, but if they do, they don't know which ones
and where they do, so next time around they'll begin anew
and haven't learnt anything.
Those who do so tend to use their huge ego as the weapon,
to throw at their adversaries in its full weight, and it works
(as above) if the latter accept the attack.
But if its intended recipients do not accept the attack, then
the energy goes back and hurts its owner. The energy can
even be reflected, and then becomes much stronger when
it comes back to its originator. The emptier its intended
recipients are, the more it passes right through them and
becomes magnified when it returns to harm its senders.
It is safe to play spiritual and psychic Judo, in that one
uses the humongous ego of one's opponents to flip them
over, the classical Judo way, and they keep on charging
in for more of the same. They dive in head first to
cooperate with one in exposing themselves and showing
themselves up, hypocrisies and all, whilst one does not
expend one's energy and therefore has nothing to lose.
One only flips one's opponents with their own energy.
The less energy one expends, the more effective one's
flipping of them is. Few know how to defeat their
opponents by wit or skill, without expending energy. A
few choice words are all it takes.
And remember, nobody has to read anything, and after
reading something, nobody has to reply to it. Everything
is free and everything is voluntary on these boards.
The strange thing is that the bullies keep on charging in
to *beg* for more of the same, as if they starved for it.
They essentially behave like addicts (in the "bitter loser"
syndrome) and drive themselves to the ground with their
own energy, whatever the attainments they lay claim to
are.
Tang Huyen
Robert Epstein
> Robert Epstein wrote:
>
>> Hollywood Lee wrote:
>>
>>> Keynes wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Everyone has faith even if only that the
>>>> mundane earth will be here, flat as ever, tomorrow.
>>>> Scientific materialism is a faith that the world
>>>> is understandable and that we understand it.
>>>> It's belief. Everybody has one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gil Fronsdal gives a talk about faith/saddha - see
>>> http://www.audiodharma.org/mp3files/2007-11-11_GilFronsdal_SaddhaFaithKnowledge.mp3
>>> - in which he notes that another translation for saddha/faith is
>>> confidence.
>>>
>>> Ultimately, he comes back to preferring the word faith over
>>> confidence, but I tend to like the idea of confidence in that it
>>> speaks to me of a confidence born of a practice-based experience and
>>> doesn't carry the unfortunate theistic/dogmatic baggage that the word
>>> faith has acquired.
>>>
>>
>> Confidence is indeed "faith" in something that has been practiced and
>> verified. And that is the kind of "faith" that is required in Buddhism.
>
>
> Yeah. Of course, an attitude of confidence, if unquestioned, can easily
> slide into an attitude of over-confidence or misplaced confidence.
all too easy with these inferior egoic beings. lucky us who have
transcended or come from other more advanced planets.
robert
- - - - - - -
Robert Epstein
> ^@%>---*=# wrote:
>
>>
>> "Hollywood Lee" <hollyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:fltie5$3b2$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>>
>>> ^@%>---*=# wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Hollywood Lee" <hollyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:flthoa$vsp$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>
>>>>> ^@%>---*=# wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Hollywood Lee" <hollyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:fltha4$t40$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ^@%>---*=# wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Hollywood Lee" <hollyw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:fltgau$p7g$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Keynes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Everyone has faith even if only that the
>>>>>>>>>> mundane earth will be here, flat as ever, tomorrow.
>>>>>>>>>> Scientific materialism is a faith that the world
>>>>>>>>>> is understandable and that we understand it.
>>>>>>>>>> It's belief. Everybody has one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gil Fronsdal gives a talk about faith/saddha - see
>>>>>>>>> http://www.audiodharma.org/mp3files/2007-11-11_GilFronsdal_SaddhaFaithKnowledge.mp3
>>>>>>>>> - in which he notes that another translation for saddha/faith
>>>>>>>>> is confidence.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ultimately, he comes back to preferring the word faith over
>>>>>>>>> confidence, but I tend to like the idea of confidence in that
>>>>>>>>> it speaks to me of a confidence born of a practice-based
>>>>>>>>> experience and doesn't carry the unfortunate theistic/dogmatic
>>>>>>>>> baggage that the word faith has acquired.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and why is there a need for confidence?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A need? I don't think I described it as a need, but it does fit
>>>>>>> with your favorite thesis of addictionalitiesismestness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> confidence is only brought out in the face of fear.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A rather silly statement - but par for the course here, eh?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> what is it that you fear?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Snakes on a plane.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> apparently you fear being honest
>>>
>>>
>>> LOL. Dang. I almost killed another laptop by spraying tea on the
>>> keyboard.
>>
>>
>> hmmm. fear of being honest,
>> fear of spraying tea and fear
>> of snakes on a plane. seems
>> you already have quite the full
>> plate so i guess i'll just leave you
>> to it.
>
>
>
> Oh yeah. I also forgot this one - running out of cardamon and cumin.
> How about you?
I have those spices. I have so many spices on my overly constricted
spice counter that they are piled in two layers. you should see me
wheeling them around, spinning the covers off, shaking them out,
flipping them back into place. it's a wonder to behold.
robert
- - - - - - - - -
Robert Epstein
> Hollywood Lee <hollyw...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>>Keynes wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Everyone has faith even if only that the
>>>mundane earth will be here, flat as ever, tomorrow.
>>>Scientific materialism is a faith that the world
>>>is understandable and that we understand it.
>>>It's belief. Everybody has one.
>>
>>Gil Fronsdal gives a talk about faith/saddha - see
>>http://www.audiodharma.org/mp3files/2007-11-11_GilFronsdal_SaddhaFaithKnowledge.mp3
>>- in which he notes that another translation for saddha/faith is confidence.
>>
>>Ultimately, he comes back to preferring the word faith over confidence,
>>but I tend to like the idea of confidence in that it speaks to me of a
>>confidence born of a practice-based experience and doesn't carry the
>>unfortunate theistic/dogmatic baggage that the word faith has acquired.
>
>
> Of course, the "-fid-" in the middle of "confidence" goes right
> back to _fideo_.
>
> Unless you would rather think of it as a sailor's implement
> for untying knots. Which is a rather nice thought, actually.
>
> Lee Rudolph
>
>
Ever met anyone who could untie a knot with their tongue?
Robert
Hollywood Lee
Ah. If only we were so lucky, eh?
Ali
wrote:
You say all that like it was a *bad* thing. You describe elsewhere,
perhaps a tad glibly, how you reconstruct yourself and it's all fluff
and playtime. Which there's probably some truth to.
There's also something to be said for crashing and deconstruction, if
one can rebirth from the ashes. It's all part of the great process, as
epitomized by the Hindu trinity, etc. and everything in Nature.
So maybe those "bullies" are unconsciously doing the most hygienic
thing they can be doing to reduce their own egos....they just haven't
smoothed out the process enough yet.....or gotten a grasp on what it
is they're doing unconsciously....