Lankavatara

[gozan]

Zen Buddhism is based on the notion that the ultimate
reality is pure consciousness. This makes sense because
consciousness is knowledge which can only be experienced
by being conscious. We are all born with consciousness.

So, the notion that a person is 'born enlightened' is a
Vajrayana Buddhist point of view. It is explained nicely in
the Lankavatara Sutra.

We are all born enlightened, that is, fully awake, according
to our karma. Yet, due to cultural conditioning we immediately,
upon opening our eyes, fall back asleep as it were, into a state
in which we identify with change and deny the non-dual
awareness.

In short, we become materialists, and forget our spiritual
nature - instead we identify with the body thinking "...this is
my body, this is my mind, this is my soul", etc.

[Noah Sombrero]

On Wed, 7 Feb 2024 10:44:10 -0800 (PST), gozan <pundi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Enter speeding trucks.
--
Noah Sombrero

[gozan]

In Mahayana Buddhism, there is a 'storehouse of
consciousness', a place, where all kinds of ideas,
are kept.

A 'storehouse' is like a museum or a store where
information is stored. A store of consciousness
refers to the storing and also to what is stored.

In the Zen Buddhist tradition, this information is
stored as "bijas", seeds.

"The Buddha taught that consciousness is always
continuing, like a stream of water. "

Read more:

'Understanding Our Mind'
Fifty Verses on the Nature of Consciousness
By Thich Nhat Hanh
Parallax Press, 2006

The renowned Zen’s monk’s profound study of
Buddhist psychology—with insights into how
these ancient teachings apply to the modern
world:
http://tinyurl.com/d23wxf

[David Dalton]

On Feb 8, 2024, gozan wrote
(in article<0e69e604-cf68-4aa6...@googlegroups.com>):

Indeed I have a theory of a continuum of consciousness
within which we are overlapping consciousness wavelets.
But I have to reconcile that theory with my theories of soul
and of higher dimensional body.

My “crone moon, again” attempt is now complete.

--
David Dalton dal...@nfld.com https://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
https://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)
“Mary walks down to the water’s edge and there she hangs
Her head to find herself faded a shadow of what she once was" (S.McL.)

[Noah Sombrero]

On Wed, 7 Feb 2024 19:34:48 -0800 (PST), gozan <pundi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

zoom zoom
--
Noah Sombrero

[Julian]

How the Dutch do nothing

Niksen is the Dutch word for “doing nothing” and it’s all the rage,
apparently, even if I find it confusing: if you are intentionally doing
nothing, then aren’t you doing something? Apparently, if you niksen, it
will “reduce stress” and all that, but at the moment it is just doing my
head in. Stressfully.

I fear it may be our old friend, the wellness industry, having a laugh
again and giving a name to something that people have always done
anyway. Like hygge, although, to be fair, until that Danish word came
along no one had thought you could get warm in front of a fire or that
it might be cosy to wear big jumpers and woolly socks. Niksen, though.
On closer inspection it is defined as “hanging around, taking in your
surroundings, listening to music … as long as there is no outcome in
mind”. But if it’s no outcome you are seeking, and there is no outcome,
isn’t that the outcome? I think this will eventually drive me mad.
Couldn’t we just stick to “relaxing” or “pootling”? Meanwhile, there
seem to be hundreds of books on it at Amazon, which proves … what,
exactly? Write something about nothing and there’s a few bob to be made?

Deborah Ross

[Noah Sombrero]

On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 16:53:42 +0000, Julian <julia...@gmail.com>
wrote:

It is an idea of ancient pedigree

Having no desires, including the desire to have no desires
Choosing to love god
A hammer hitting itself on the head.

We do have testimony that the first two are possible. But, for most
of us, the hammer remains unhit.
--
Noah Sombrero

[gozan]

On Wednesday, February 7, 2024 at 10:54:23 PM UTC-6, David Dalton wrote:
>
> Indeed I have a theory of a continuum of consciousness
> within which we are overlapping consciousness wavelets.
>

The Buddhist theory of a "store-house of consciousness" is
mentioned in the Lankavatara. The Alaya-vijnana is one of
the central doctrines of Mahayana Buddhism: a receptacle
and container of the so-called 'seeds' (bija), or elementary
units of past experiences.

[gozan]

On Thursday, February 8, 2024 at 8:13:18 AM UTC-6, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>
> zoom zoom
>
For Buddhists, the basic human problem is false
discrimination. We habitually impute some kind of
substantiality to things when, in fact, they have no
self-sustaining authenticity of their own.

The illusion is that truth is really a kind of un-truth
because we perceive *error*. Error is something
that just can't be - it is mysterious, like a dream,
which seems real when we are in it, but turns out
to be not real when we awaken.

Dreams are like illusions - they are real as long
as they are presented to us, but not-real when we
awaken to the Truth. So, dreams and illusions are
not real, yet not un-real either.

The solution for Indian Buddhists was to posit
the 'store-consciousness', a repository for past
deeds and thoughts, which spring up later into
actions and events.

This 'alayavijnana' is the Real and all else are but
mere ideas, 'seeds' for later fruition.

This is 'mind only' - a type of idealism. According
to the Lankavatara Sutra:

"...by the wise the five skandhas are regarded as
thought-constructions. They are like various
forms and objects in a vision, like images and
persons in a dream."

Reference:

'The Vagrant Lotus'
By Douglas A. Fox
Westminster Press, 1973
http://tinyurl.com/6j2xy5

[Noah Sombrero]

On Thu, 8 Feb 2024 12:45:15 -0800 (PST), gozan <pundi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The paradox is that, when you live consistently with the idea that
"things have no self-sustaining authenticity of their own", everything
is fine until you step in front of a speeding truck.

On the other hand, it is true that, at a molecular level, everything
is a kind of omnipresent universal soup. You are one with the
speeding truck.

You get to choose your preferred vision of reality. That does not
mean that the choice will have no consequences. You can also decide
that those consequences are meaningless. In which case, sionara, been
nice talking to you.

>Reference:
>
>'The Vagrant Lotus'
>By Douglas A. Fox
>Westminster Press, 1973
>http://tinyurl.com/6j2xy5

--
Noah Sombrero

[gozan]

On Thursday, February 8, 2024 at 5:02:15 PM UTC-8, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>
> You get to choose your preferred vision of reality. That does not
> mean that the choice will have no consequences. You can also decide
> that those consequences are meaningless. In which case, sionara,
> been nice talking to you.
>

In which case you as a person would be dead - so the speeding truck
would then be be unreal to your consciousness. There is the law of
cause and effect on the relative physical level - in the Buddhist
tradition there is also cause and effect for mental activities and thoughts.

It is interesting to note that Advaita Vedanta is non-theistic in outlook.
Of the six systems of Indian philosophy, only one system is based on
theism. Advaita Vedanta has been compared to Buddhism which is also
non-theistic.

In the Vijnanavada or 'Conscious only' school, consciousness is the
ultimate reality. To reiterate:

My position, and the position of most idealistic transcendentalists, is
that we infer, from the fact of being conscious, that consciousness
itself is the ultimate reality - because without consciousness, we would
not exist.

The material world is a false projection or superimposition upon pure
consciousness which is the real. This school accepts that inference is
a valid means of knowledge.

Thoughts and ideas, not being material objects, cannot be perceived;
they can only be inferred or in some cases, intuited.

[Noah Sombrero]

On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 10:26:36 -0800 (PST), gozan <pundi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, February 8, 2024 at 5:02:15?PM UTC-8, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>>
>> You get to choose your preferred vision of reality. That does not
>> mean that the choice will have no consequences. You can also decide
>> that those consequences are meaningless. In which case, sionara,
>> been nice talking to you.
>>
>In which case you as a person would be dead - so the speeding truck
>would then be be unreal to your consciousness.

You are supposing I would still have some? Regardless, whether I am
aware of the consequence or not, the consequence is.

> There is the law of
>cause and effect on the relative physical level - in the Buddhist
>tradition there is also cause and effect for mental activities and thoughts.

This would be correct in most any tradition. The difference is that
the effects do not overlap levels. An exception would be that unreal
beliefs can have real consequences.

>It is interesting to note that Advaita Vedanta is non-theistic in outlook.
>Of the six systems of Indian philosophy, only one system is based on
>theism. Advaita Vedanta has been compared to Buddhism which is also
>non-theistic.
>
>In the Vijnanavada or 'Conscious only' school, consciousness is the
>ultimate reality. To reiterate:
>
>My position, and the position of most idealistic transcendentalists, is
>that we infer, from the fact of being conscious, that consciousness
>itself is the ultimate reality - because without consciousness, we would
>not exist.

You can make that inference, but you have no real basis for it.

>The material world is a false projection or superimposition upon pure
>consciousness which is the real. This school accepts that inference is
>a valid means of knowledge.

This school accepts...but other schools do not.

>Thoughts and ideas, not being material objects, cannot be perceived;
>they can only be inferred or in some cases, intuited.

In other people. It is valid to allow the inference though, that
other people do show evidence of having their own, which are have
nothing to do with yours.
--
Noah Sombrero

[liaM]

Consciousness is the attribute of a mind. Love is the attribute of a
heart. Love is what impels consciousness to transcendence. A mind
without a heart is a consciousness in a hall of mirrors.

[Noah Sombrero]

Or at least compassion. I suspect a neurosurgeon could point out a
place in the brain where a cut which would disable emotion.
--
Noah Sombrero

[liaM]

You forget, emotion can be twisted out of shape - anger, revenge,
hatred, or like in the awful land of Israel - seventy years of
emotion twisted through indoctrination making soldiers into murderers
of journalist and five year old kids begging for help.

Emotions are an attribute of the mind, not of the heart, for that which
comes from the heart never arises perverted or twisted.

[Noah Sombrero]

Or 30 year old soldiers who will do their very best to kill you, have
been doing that since Oct 7. Soldiers who hide among civilians are
the very basest sort.

Speaking of which, that southern gaza town of 1 mil or so that netty
wants to evacuate so he can destroy it with whatever soldiers left
behind he can find. What exactly makes him think, that if the
civilians move out, the soldiers hidden among them won't go at the
same time to the same new place?

>Emotions are an attribute of the mind, not of the heart, for that which
>comes from the heart never arises perverted or twisted.

Our neurosurgeon thinks this is a distinction without a difference.
For instance psychopaths have no compassion for fellow humans either
of head or heart, which suggests that the manifestations of each are
really not so different, at least in origin.
--
Noah Sombrero

[liaM]

psychopaths are bereft of a heart - ego and mind are their sad lot.

[Noah Sombrero]

Yet they seem to feel no lack. It might even be that, evolutionarily,
they serve a purpose. It might be that there is a need for
individuals who function well under extreme pressure with high
intelligence and competence. Maybe.

There is some evidence, it seems, that near death experiences for them
are like going to hell and for the rest like going to heaven. There
does seem to be something in us that passes judgment at that time.

Could be that it is best for us to not pretend to know anything about
the situation.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Tara]

On Feb 12, 2024, liaM wrote
(in article <uqde24$1jeu3$1...@dont-email.me>):

"Although both biological and environmental factors play a role in the
development of psychopathy and sociopathy, it is generally agreed that
psychopathy is chiefly a genetic or inherited condition, notably related to
the underdevelopment of parts of the brain”
-Brittanica

Maybe they’re born lacking the heart/brain connection

[David Dalton]

On Feb 12, 2024, Tara wrote
(in article<0001HW.2B7A7FAB00...@news.eternal-september.org>):

Psychopathy has been associated with a small amygdala.

--
David Dalton dal...@nfld.com https://www.nfld.com/~dalton (home page)
https://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html Salmon on the Thorns (mystic page)

“Early morning jubilators, up to no good instigators... Sons of long
forgotten races, that the darkest night embraces" (Ron Hynes & D. O'D.)

[Tara]

Also the Striatum (in the forebrain) is, on average, 10% larger in
psychopaths.

Using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans, they found that a region of
the forebrain known as the striatum, was on average ten per cent larger in
psychopathic individuals compared to a control group of individuals that
had low or no psychopathic traits.

[liaM]

Much worse than that. Not born, but indoctrinated. Entire populations
turning psychopathic. It's happened in the past. It's happening right
in front of us today.

What are armies practicing ethnic cleansing through murder and
destruction, except people that have been transformed into psychopaths?
And how does that happen, except through the impetus of mind twisting
politics and politicians?

[Noah Sombrero]

No that is not what happens. External events do not cause certain
parts of the brain to change size. What happens is that many of those
who were not psychopaths to start with return damaged after the war.
We call it ptsd these days. It can lead affected people to suicide,
if they choose to not continue to live with the nightmares, self
damnation, etc.

Because there is a place in normal people that does not accept the
reasonings, excuses. They were trying to kill me, I was defending my
country. No, murder is murder regardless.

Strange that there is no honor in knowing yourself well enough to know
that you must not allow yourself to be in war time situations
(pacifist). No, the honor goes to those who do allow it.

There is no doubt that some israeli soldiers will come home with that,
palestinian too. Something in us knows there is no excuse,
regardless. Too late many of us find that out.
--
Noah Sombrero

[liaM]

Rinpoché said, tame your anger so that it doesn't mutate into hatred,
the main attribute of which is wanting to murder what it is that's hated.

[Noah Sombrero]

Do you have an anger problem, rinpoche?

>
>
--
Noah Sombrero

[liaM]

Here's a question which I've never seen asked here or on Alt.Zen etc.
Have you had, in the course of learning and living, one or more
teachers who inspired you 100% trust in their words and actions??

If the answer is "yes", what was it about them that inspired you to
trust them?

[Noah Sombrero]

That would kind of be a paradox, since I trust people more when they
admit they have regrets, failings and insufficient insight, same as
me.

If buddha were to pop up sitting in the easy chair in my little
basement office, I would take the spare coffee mug from my bookshelf,
place it on his head and drop a quarter in. Then I would go upstairs
and watch tv. If he followed me up, I would ask, howcome you didn't
change the world? I mean you could have asked jesus for help or one
of those hindu avatars, surely they would share an interest in a
project like that.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2024 23:01:38 -0500, Noah Sombrero <fed...@fea.st>

I suspect you will want to reply with something about how an
omnipotent god could create a rock so big that he would be unable to
lift it.

No, no.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Wilson]

How do you know that the point of it all, is the state of the world?

To liam's question, I don't trust myself enough to trust anyone or
anything that much.

[liaM]

I meant real life rinpoché-s or equivalent, not acquaintances or friends
attached to you in the realm of emotions. Or perhaps you have, but
didn't trust them 100% but only partly, awaiting confirmation?

Have you?

[Noah Sombrero]

Another one of those "big rock" questions. Such questions tend to
suggest, that since logic leads to quandaries, we should not ask. I
ask anyway, on this rainy day. 50 Cents and a paperclip in the cup.

So, buddha, why this point of it all and not some other?

>To liam's question, I don't trust myself enough to trust anyone or
>anything that much.

Liam's suggestion perhaps is that meeting this person, you would trust
anyway, or perhaps you should.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

It is not about me. 75 cents in the cup.

So buddha, if it is not about me fading away on a rainy day, what is
it about?
--
Noah Sombrero

[Tara]

On Feb 12, 2024, liaM wrote

(in article <uqeig5$1pn0p$1...@dont-email.me>):

If I did meet someone like that, and I haven't, I would trust their actions
more than their words. But 100% - never.

[Julian]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJHPfpOnDzg

[Noah Sombrero]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 16:54:03 +0000, Julian <julia...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I assume liam's guy does not utter the infamous, "trust me".
--
Noah Sombrero

[Tara]

Sorry to keep coming back to this, liaM but I’m curious as to what you mean
by Trust. Do you mean to believe that they speak and act the truth more
than others? That they know a truth and we would believe that they do? And
we trust that they are omnipotent. Seems that would be trusting 100%. There
are many truths, if there are any at all.
I trust myself to work out my own “religion” and at the same time be open
to new ideas and adjust if necessary. I’ve never understood those who
follow another person and lift that person up as a leader or teacher. I
trust that the “teacher” has found something that he/she believes is true
for them and some of that may be true for me. But that’s just a maybe. So,
I really only trust myself. And since I can’t know myself totally, I can’t
trust myself 100%.

[liaM]

I don't understand. Let me answer my own questions. Personally, I'm
ready and eager to meet and listen to a teacher, and they have 100% of
my trust, or as much as I am able to offer, but given the usual caveats,
i.e. I am not blind nor would I walk blissfully on a pythons back to the
python's hypnosis inducing song.

Happily I have never been betrayed by any of the hundreds of teachers I
have encountered and learned from in my life (not the case, however,
with some of the dealings I have had in the business world..)

So, when I quoted the stuff about anger becoming hatred, that was a
teaching from a Tibetan guy who happened to be a Rinpoché (i.e.
a teacher of buddhism). Check your answer. Why in the world would
you want to answer

>>>>>> Do you have an anger problem, rinpoche?

Tell me.

[liaM]

I see trusting being simple and open hearted, until I am given cause
to be more wary, and that goes for all my contacts, not only those
involving teaching of spiritual truths. First of all, I am a wizened
old truth seeker, so trusting a teacher that is spouting nonsense is
no problem for me. I trust the teacher for being what he is showing
himself to be, a teacher who is spouting nonsense.

But I am lucky, I guess. I have never met a teacher with the idea
of omnipotence, knowing better than anyone else, or scheming to get
into my pants. Never. My teachers are the type who say a couple words
which transform my world and behavior unexpectedly and forever.
For example, my first such encounter with a teacher (it was of music),
she quoted a single sentence by the French philosopher Pascal.
"The eternal silence of these infinite spaces frightens me".
I got it, and then we went on with studying musical notations.

Or with my quoting a Tibetan rinpoché in my discussion with Noah above.
There's nothing less invasive and more enlightening, than that rinpoché
pointing out how anger is a poison, nothing more down to earth.

[liaM]

hehe

[Tara]

Ah, I understand

“ I trust the teacher for being what he is showing
> himself to be”

I agree. :)

[liaM]

On 2/13/2024 10:11 PM, Tara wrote:

>
> Ah, I understand
>
> “ I trust the teacher for being what he is showing
>> himself to be”
>
> I agree. :)
>

It's much easier to ride the horse in the direction it's going.

(quote from new age guru Werner Erhard)

[Noah Sombrero]

I am walking into this guy with no prior knowledge of anything about
him. So he is a big time tibetan buddhist?

Anyway:

> Rinpoché said, tame your anger so that it doesn't mutate into hatred,
> the main attribute of which is wanting to murder what it is that's hated.

My life experience suggest that he must have anger issues. Sure I get
mad every 5 or 10 years or so, but not once has my anger mutated into
wanting to murder. Nor have I witnessed mutated wish to murder in
other people.

Not once.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

Anger is also a normal human emotion, nothing to be frightened of. But
yes, failure to forgive, and maintained resentments are poisons that
one takes hoping that the other person will die. Silly.

Rinpoche's statement sounds more extreme to me.

Do you not allow yourself to be angry if the situation might arise for
that? And then, does that anger not pass pretty darn soon?
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 21:11:08 -0000 (UTC), Tara <jack...@airpost.net>

Yeh, liam, you shudda said that to start with.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

Smart guy.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 16:53:09 -0500, Noah Sombrero <fed...@fea.st>
wrote:

Unless I don't want to go there.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Tara]

Noah Sombrero <fed...@fea.st> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 16:53:09 -0500, Noah Sombrero <fed...@fea.st>
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 22:40:06 +0100, liaM <cud...@mindless.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/13/2024 10:11 PM, Tara wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ah, I understand
>>>>
>>>> “ I trust the teacher for being what he is showing
>>>>> himself to be”
>>>>
>>>> I agree. :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's much easier to ride the horse in the direction it's going.
>>>
>>> (quote from new age guru Werner Erhard)
>>
>> Smart guy.
>
> Unless I don't want to go there.

Haha

[Tara]

External Locus of Control

[liaM]

Nice sounding phrase !

[Noah Sombrero]

It means that horses can be equipped with human interface devices
(reigns) that allow users to suggest an alternative direction. No
longer are users at the mercy of horses that simply wish for a clean
dry stable with filled oat bags.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Tara]

Trying not to beat a dead horse here but that’s not what it means.

[Noah Sombrero]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 15:24:17 -0000 (UTC), Tara <jack...@airpost.net>
wrote:

>Noah Sombrero <fed...@fea.st> wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 13:20:31 +0100, liaM <cud...@mindless.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/14/2024 6:35 AM, Tara wrote:
>>>> liaM <cud...@mindless.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2/13/2024 10:11 PM, Tara wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, I understand
>>>>>>

>>>>>> ? I trust the teacher for being what he is showing
>>>>>>> himself to be?

>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's much easier to ride the horse in the direction it's going.
>>>>>
>>>>> (quote from new age guru Werner Erhard)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> External Locus of Control
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nice sounding phrase !
>>
>> It means that horses can be equipped with human interface devices
>> (reigns) that allow users to suggest an alternative direction. No
>> longer are users at the mercy of horses that simply wish for a clean
>> dry stable with filled oat bags.
>
>Trying not to beat a dead horse here but that’s not what it means.

Dead horses need fun too.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Wilson]

Most humans feel a need to control the horse rather than ride it where
it's going.

It's one of our conditioned responses. A survival mechanism.

Regarding people who claim to be teachers, "A dried peach is not a
peach, but may prepare you to recognize fresh peaches when at last you
eat one."

[liaM]

My ride and I are a kingdom all of our own. Who want's to haggle with
a horse?

[Noah Sombrero]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 11:27:32 -0500, Wilson <Wil...@nowhere.net> wrote:

>On 2/14/2024 7:20 AM, liaM wrote:
>> On 2/14/2024 6:35 AM, Tara wrote:
>>> liaM <cud...@mindless.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2/13/2024 10:11 PM, Tara wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, I understand
>>>>>
>>>>> “ I trust the teacher for being what he is showing
>>>>>> himself to be”
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree. :)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's much easier to ride the horse in the direction it's going.
>>>>
>>>> (quote from new age guru Werner Erhard)
>>>>
>>>
>>> External Locus of Control
>>>
>>
>> Nice sounding phrase !
>
>
>Most humans feel a need to control the horse rather than ride it where
>it's going.

Because our priorities most likely do not coincide.

>It's one of our conditioned responses. A survival mechanism.

A way of dealing with speeding trucks. You of course can choose to
not deal.

>Regarding people who claim to be teachers, "A dried peach is not a
>peach, but may prepare you to recognize fresh peaches when at last you
>eat one."

Or one could learn that fresh peaches arrive at the market Aug to Sep
or similar depending on where you live and are best in the middle of
that range. Dried peaches will never teach you that as they are
always available and with unvarying quality.

Besides that, a dummy like me would never imagine there might be such
a thing as a good fresh peach as a result of eating dried ones. So, I
must otherwise learn of fresh peaches and study their occurrence if I
am to have any.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

As long as you are satisfied to return to the stable. Weren't you
hoping to have eggs for breakfast, or at least something for dinner?
--
Noah Sombrero

[Tara]

Wilson <Wil...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 2/14/2024 7:20 AM, liaM wrote:
>> On 2/14/2024 6:35 AM, Tara wrote:
>>> liaM <cud...@mindless.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2/13/2024 10:11 PM, Tara wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, I understand
>>>>>
>>>>> “ I trust the teacher for being what he is showing
>>>>>> himself to be”
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree. :)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's much easier to ride the horse in the direction it's going.
>>>>
>>>> (quote from new age guru Werner Erhard)
>>>>
>>>
>>> External Locus of Control
>>>
>>
>> Nice sounding phrase !
>
>
> Most humans feel a need to control the horse rather than ride it where
> it's going.

Not so -
A higher percentage of people have an external locus compared to those with
an internal locus of control. But most are somewhere in between.

>
> It's one of our conditioned responses. A survival mechanism.
>
> Regarding people who claim to be teachers, "A dried peach is not a
> peach, but may prepare you to recognize fresh peaches when at last you
> eat one."

:)



>
>
>

[Wilson]

On 2/14/2024 12:24 PM, Tara wrote:
> Wilson <Wil...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 2/14/2024 7:20 AM, liaM wrote:
>>> On 2/14/2024 6:35 AM, Tara wrote:
>>>> liaM <cud...@mindless.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It's much easier to ride the horse in the direction it's going.
>>>>>
>>>>> (quote from new age guru Werner Erhard)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> External Locus of Control
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nice sounding phrase !
>>
>>
>> Most humans feel a need to control the horse rather than ride it where
>> it's going.
>
> Not so -
> A higher percentage of people have an external locus compared to those with
> an internal locus of control. But most are somewhere in between.

I think that's probably correct.

But I suspect most people will try to control the horse even though they
believe they are at the mercy of greater forces outside of their control.

I believe that from the highest / widest / most aware perspective we are
ultimately responsible for everything that happens to us. I also believe
it feels and looks like most things in life are outside of our control.

It is strange.

[Tara]

On Feb 15, 2024, Wilson wrote
(in article <uql8u5$3bd1q$1...@dont-email.me>):

And there you are.
>
>
> It is strange.

It is, for sure. I think the best we can do is to take good care of that
horse.

[Noah Sombrero]

Clean stall with lots of hay and oats, while I take a hike to town.
See you tomorrow morning with the supplies we need.
--
Noah Sombrero

[gozan]

On Sunday, February 11, 2024 at 10:43:29 AM UTC-8, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>
> You can make that inference, but you have no real basis for it.
>

So, I infer, from being conscious, that consciousness is the absolute
reality. Inference is a valid means of knowledge.

Perception also tells me that consciousness is the only real, since
everything changes. And, logically it sounds correct to think that the
reality is non-dual. It would not make much sense to have two reals.

[gozan]

On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 5:04:57 AM UTC-8, Wilson wrote:
>
> How do you know that the point of it all, is the state of the world?
>
Another question: Where do all those memories and dreams go?

You can’t physically measure your memories but you know you have
them, so where does your body store them? Maybe they were not in
your body in the first place.

[gozan]

On Thursday, February 15, 2024 at 7:00:23 AM UTC-8, Wilson wrote:
>
> I believe that from the highest / widest / most aware perspective we are
> ultimately responsible for everything that happens to us. I also believe
> it feels and looks like most things in life are outside of our control.
>

The only question remaining: is there a possibility of moral reciprocity?

[Noah Sombrero]

On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 10:42:14 -0800 (PST), gozan <pundi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 5:04:57?AM UTC-8, Wilson wrote:
>>
>> How do you know that the point of it all, is the state of the world?
>>
>Another question: Where do all those memories and dreams go?
>
>You can’t physically measure your memories but you know you have
>them, so where does your body store them? Maybe they were not in
>your body in the first place.

Brain surgeons seem to think that there is a place in the brain that,
if damaged, causes the loss of all memory.

But, I understand, that, since you are not buddha or jesus or a hindu
avatar, you can't really answer my question.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 10:44:35 -0800 (PST), gozan <pundi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, February 15, 2024 at 7:00:23?AM UTC-8, Wilson wrote:
>>
>> I believe that from the highest / widest / most aware perspective we are
>> ultimately responsible for everything that happens to us. I also believe
>> it feels and looks like most things in life are outside of our control.
>>
>The only question remaining: is there a possibility of moral reciprocity?

Are you saying that wilson's belief settles anything? Besides what he
happen to believe?
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 10:36:14 -0800 (PST), gozan <pundi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sunday, February 11, 2024 at 10:43:29?AM UTC-8, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>>
>> You can make that inference, but you have no real basis for it.
>>
>So, I infer, from being conscious, that consciousness is the absolute
>reality. Inference is a valid means of knowledge.

Inference is a convenient substitute when it is not possible to test
all examples. Reliability increases with sample size. A sample size
of 1 is very unreliable. 10,000 is pretty good, but far from
absolute.

>Perception also tells me that consciousness is the only real, since
>everything changes. And, logically it sounds correct to think that the
>reality is non-dual. It would not make much sense to have two reals.

My granma, what big assumptions you have.
--
Noah Sombrero

[gozan]

On Friday, February 16, 2024 at 11:03:24 AM UTC-8, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>
> Inference is a convenient substitute when it is not possible to test
> all examples. Reliability increases with sample size. A sample size
> of 1 is very unreliable. 10,000 is pretty good, but far from
> absolute.
>

It's a difficult task to refute the 'conscious only' point of view. You
would have to somehow negate the fact of human consciousness
and then defend your assumptions against Hegel and Kant's idealism.

Vasubandhu's most original and philosophically interesting treatise is
his Twenty Verses (Vimsatika). In it he defends his yoga from
objections by realists. He was probably the first person, other than
Buddha himself, to posit that what we think are external objects are
nothing more than mental projections.

[Noah Sombrero]

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 10:25:10 -0800 (PST), gozan <pundi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Friday, February 16, 2024 at 11:03:24?AM UTC-8, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>>
>> Inference is a convenient substitute when it is not possible to test
>> all examples. Reliability increases with sample size. A sample size
>> of 1 is very unreliable. 10,000 is pretty good, but far from
>> absolute.
>>
>It's a difficult task to refute the 'conscious only' point of view. You
>would have to somehow negate the fact of human consciousness

Who sez?

>and then defend your assumptions against Hegel and Kant's idealism.
>
>Vasubandhu's most original and philosophically interesting treatise is
>his Twenty Verses (Vimsatika). In it he defends his yoga from
>objections by realists. He was probably the first person, other than
>Buddha himself, to posit that what we think are external objects are
>nothing more than mental projections.

Sight for instance is entirely a fabrication of the visual cortex
designed to make humans better able to detect enemies and food. That
does not mean that there is nothing out there. It simply means that
our perception of it is very purpose directed, and not designed to
show us what light is, or what pencils are. Although we have been
quite clever at devising methods of approximating "what the are."
It is clear though that they are not nothing. And the fault lies
with the design of our senses, not with the lack of actual things to
sense.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 13:47:20 -0500, Noah Sombrero <fed...@fea.st>
wrote:

Ancient philosophers had no concept of how clever humans would become
at almost figuring things out.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Tara]

What purpose then would our being drawn to the Golden Section. What purpose
beauty?

[Noah Sombrero]

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 19:02:12 -0000 (UTC), Tara <jack...@airpost.net>
wrote:

Think of an intelligent creature many thousands of years ago with no
understanding of the world in which he/she lives, in which the life
expectancy is 35 years and often much shorter and suffering
everywhere.

What would evolutionarily favor the ability of this creature to accept
his life as it is and get on with it? Finding the world to be an ugly
place or a beautiful place? Finding life to be a meaningless struggle
or finding it to be meaningful in some way?

But you are right, there are patterns. Like how composite flowers
(sunflowers, dandelions, daisies, etc) arrange their petals in
fibonacci series. That is a number series imagined by an italian
mathematician a few centuries ago. Why that pattern? You also see it
in the whorls of snail shells and other places in nature. Cynical
biologists think it is the most efficient way to arrange petals and
snail shells. There are other ways too though for petaled and shelled
creatures. Some of them not pretty at all. Ever see a pile worm at
the sea shore. Ugly, ugly.

As I said nearby,

"Ancient philosophers had no concept of how clever humans would become
at almost figuring things out."

Well, almost, but not quite.
--
Noah Sombrero