Just Us

[Wilson]

Earlier this year, the feds signed an agreement that let Boeing
executives off the hook for the 737 MAX catastrophes, which killed 346
people.

The lead prosecutor, Erin Nealy Cox, then took a job with the firm that
leads Boeing's criminal defense.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeings-former-chief-technical-pilot-on-the-737-max-indicted-for-fraud/

[Julian]

Surprise level zero.

If a former UK minister doesn't die first they
are often immediately employed on leaving office
by one of the department's "customers."

A governments minister's phone book is a pension.

I'm not sure how such corruption could be
prevented even with the will.

[Wilson]

Public shaming.

Instead of being the last two paragraphs in the article it should be a
featured news report. There should be journalists showing up on their
doorstep. Other government functionaries should be asked if they would
do that. That's what we could do. Make the former prosecutor and her
new law firm pariahs.

[Noah Sombrero]

Jobs.

Like bombardier in quebec, boeing in seattle is revered. A place
where a person can get a decent paying job. When boeing has troubles,
seattle suffers. Sure seattle has microsoft too, but average joes
can't get an assembly job there. A successful large us corporation
that doesn't move operations to india, indonesia, china, mexico?
Politically untouchable.

Journalists? They remember confronting the logging industry from
northern bc to northern calif. Angry loggers can make a bigger fuss
than angry tree huggers. So, forget that. The logging industry has
faded a little now, because most of the big trees are gone. Not
because of any environmental activists. When I was a kid in the
pacific nw, I used to see logging trucks carrying a log so big a
single truck could carry only one log. By the time I left 15 years
ago, that was no longer seen. Once in a while you would see a logging
truck with a load of logs no bigger than 18 inches diameter. The
struggle now is for the remaining old growth in bc. Environmentalists
block roads, tie themselves to trees. The courts these days are not
sympathetic. The news media report a little, but not much.

And come election time, there is no more essential mantra than jobs,
jobs, jobs. I will create the most jobs. Good paying jobs, you will
see. And the last thing any politician can afford to do is to be seen
causing the loss of good paying jobs.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Love]

In article <skefau$gfg$1...@dont-email.me>, Wil...@nowhere.net says...

Shaming is one part. Another is pensions that are
generous enough that people don't need to exploit their
insider knowledge and contacts just to live in comfort
after giving the best parts of their lives in service
of their countries. For elected people, the insecurity
can be quite high, and the need to fall back on their
experience in order to seek employement is the same as
with anyone else. We shouldn't be trying to prevent
that. A resume is a resume.

Another method is time-based conflict-of-interest
prohibitions, such as exist for the staff-to-lobbyist
pipeline.

Yet another is direct prohibition and penalties. I
am sure that in the example above, if the former lead
prosecutor could be shown to have "thrown the game",
that would be a very serious offence under already
existing laws, with a very serious consequence. It's
very hard to prove this of course. That difficulty
is counterbalanced by making the penalties so serious
that the risk calculation for the perpetrator is a
deterrent.

In this case, even if there were cheating, did it in
any way affect anyone materially? Did Boeing get to
avoid making reasonable compensations to victims, for
example, or avoid fixing the problem. If nobody
actually "got away with something", then what's the
issue?

--
Love

[Wilson]

The issue is well connected individuals doing things that less well
connected folks would be prosecuted for.

In this country it's a growing problem.

We used to have rule of law with an even and fair system of justice that
applied equally to everyone. Now, it's increasingly about "Just Us".

[Love]

In article <skeqe8$pco$1...@dont-email.me>, Wil...@nowhere.net says...

Maybe that imagined past never existed and it's
just becoming more obvious over time? If the
actual incidence rate is climing, that is a
more serious problem.

--
Love

[Wilson]

That's occurred to me as well, that maybe our justice system has always
been bent to benefit the well connected. Maybe it's just more obvious
now with the ability of citizen journalists to bypass the filters of the
mainstream news.

But does saying "It's always been this way", improve or retard efforts
at improving our justice system?

[Noah Sombrero]

Does incorrectly saying that it getting worse improve or retard
efforts?

The important question is, what would your improvement look like?
Perhaps not the same as mine?
--
Noah Sombrero

[Kentucky Jelly Buddha]

On 10/17/2021 10:25 AM, Wilson wrote:
>
> That's occurred to me as well, that maybe our justice system has always
> been bent to benefit the well connected.  Maybe it's just more obvious
> now with the ability of citizen journalists to bypass the filters of the
> mainstream news.
>
> But does saying "It's always been this way", improve or retard efforts
> at improving our justice system?

EVERY justice system in history has favored the well connected.
Part of it is that they can afford (or attract) the very
best lawyers or even in the distant past, their family or
tribal connections could get a measure of leniency.

--
Kentucky Jelly Buddha
Making Leek Insertion Easy Since 1904
Van Horn and Sawtell Co. of New York City

[Love]

In article <skhbnt$j4l$1...@dont-email.me>, Wil...@nowhere.net says...

It retards them.

I am hopeful though. Citizen journalists plus
thinking of systems as systems rather than
mere instantiations of principles, may make a
big difference in the long run.

--
Love

[Wilson]

On 10/17/2021 10:37 PM, Kentucky Jelly Buddha wrote:
> On 10/17/2021 10:25 AM, Wilson wrote:
>>
>> That's occurred to me as well, that maybe our justice system has
>> always been bent to benefit the well connected.  Maybe it's just more
>> obvious now with the ability of citizen journalists to bypass the
>> filters of the mainstream news.
>>
>> But does saying "It's always been this way", improve or retard efforts
>> at improving our justice system?
>
> EVERY justice system in history has favored the well connected.
> Part of it is that they can afford (or attract) the very
> best lawyers or even in the distant past, their family or
> tribal connections could get a measure of leniency.
>

Yes, this is obviously mostly true.

But my question remains.

[Wilson]

On 10/18/2021 8:28 AM, Love wrote:
> In article <skhbnt$j4l$1...@dont-email.me>, Wil...@nowhere.net says...
>> On 10/17/2021 6:18 AM, Love wrote:
>>> In article <skeqe8$pco$1...@dont-email.me>, Wil...@nowhere.net says...
>>>>

>>>> We used to have rule of law with an even and fair system of justice that
>>>> applied equally to everyone. Now, it's increasingly about "Just Us".
>>>
>>> Maybe that imagined past never existed and it's
>>> just becoming more obvious over time? If the
>>> actual incidence rate is climing, that is a
>>> more serious problem.
>>>
>> That's occurred to me as well, that maybe our justice system has always
>> been bent to benefit the well connected. Maybe it's just more obvious
>> now with the ability of citizen journalists to bypass the filters of the
>> mainstream news.
>>
>> But does saying "It's always been this way", improve or retard efforts
>> at improving our justice system?
>
> It retards them.
>
> I am hopeful though. Citizen journalists plus
> thinking of systems as systems rather than
> mere instantiations of principles, may make a
> big difference in the long run.
>

Systems can serve people, ideologies and institutions.

Someone I came across recently was asked why some countries are rich and
some other countries are not. He said it's hard to pin down but the one
commonality was the rich countries all relied on trusted institutions
that had survived long beyond the lives of any one man.

[Noah Sombrero]

And so it is ominous when those institutions become no longer trusted.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Kentucky Jelly Buddha]

Neither. This is why we have a jury system to
ameliorate the worst abuses.

[Noah Sombrero]

On Mon, 18 Oct 2021 16:04:49 -0400, Kentucky Jelly Buddha
<ans...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 10/18/2021 11:32 AM, Wilson wrote:
>> On 10/17/2021 10:37 PM, Kentucky Jelly Buddha wrote:
>>> On 10/17/2021 10:25 AM, Wilson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That's occurred to me as well, that maybe our justice system has
>>>> always been bent to benefit the well connected.  Maybe it's just more
>>>> obvious now with the ability of citizen journalists to bypass the
>>>> filters of the mainstream news.
>>>>
>>>> But does saying "It's always been this way", improve or retard
>>>> efforts at improving our justice system?
>>>
>>> EVERY justice system in history has favored the well connected.
>>> Part of it is that they can afford (or attract) the very
>>> best lawyers or even in the distant past, their family or
>>> tribal connections could get a measure of leniency.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, this is obviously mostly true.
>>
>> But my question remains.
>
>Neither. This is why we have a jury system to
>ameliorate the worst abuses.

It can't help much is a case is never brought to trial.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Love]

In article <20211018-1...@Love.news.eternal-september.org>,
n...@spam.invalid says...

The very long run. Probably generations.
We'll both be dead. My hopefulness is
for them, just as is my hopefulness for
human mastery of space travel.

So let's change "it's always been this way"
to "it's been this way for far too long".


--
Love

[Love]

In article <skk4nk$b0i$1...@dont-email.me>, Wil...@nowhere.net says...

Yes.


--
Love

[Wilson]

Noah actually stumbles upon a good point.

Jury trials prevent prosecution overreach but they can't do a thing
about cases that are never prosecuted or even investigated.

[Wilson]

Agreed.

Now is the time to create the institutions that will take us to where we
want to go.

If not now, never.

[Noah Sombrero]

On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 08:13:42 -0400, Wilson <Wil...@nowhere.net> wrote:

>On 10/18/2021 4:06 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Oct 2021 16:04:49 -0400, Kentucky Jelly Buddha
>> <ans...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/18/2021 11:32 AM, Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 10/17/2021 10:37 PM, Kentucky Jelly Buddha wrote:
>>>>> On 10/17/2021 10:25 AM, Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's occurred to me as well, that maybe our justice system has

>>>>>> always been bent to benefit the well connected.? Maybe it's just more

>>>>>> obvious now with the ability of citizen journalists to bypass the
>>>>>> filters of the mainstream news.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But does saying "It's always been this way", improve or retard
>>>>>> efforts at improving our justice system?
>>>>>
>>>>> EVERY justice system in history has favored the well connected.
>>>>> Part of it is that they can afford (or attract) the very
>>>>> best lawyers or even in the distant past, their family or
>>>>> tribal connections could get a measure of leniency.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, this is obviously mostly true.
>>>>
>>>> But my question remains.
>>>
>>> Neither. This is why we have a jury system to
>>> ameliorate the worst abuses.
>>
>> It can't help much is a case is never brought to trial.
>
>Noah actually stumbles upon a good point.
>
>Jury trials prevent prosecution overreach but they can't do a thing
>about cases that are never prosecuted or even investigated.

The difference is that we do not agree on who is evading prosecution.
--
Noah Sombrero

[Noah Sombrero]

This might be one of those cases where "we" does not apply.
--
Noah Sombrero

[liaM]

But as Nyall Ferguson wrote, it's not just the longetivity of
institutions that made countries rich - witness China prior to its
conversion to capitalism. It's because we have as europeans,
jews and anglos, an indominatable spirit of conquest

Rose colored glasses "on"

[Love]

In article <skn5id$7oj$1...@dont-email.me>, cud...@mindless.com says...

Yes, those glasses are useful for iltering out
long bloody imperial histories in Asia and Africa.


--
Love

[Captain Squeeka]

Why is taking a wiz like being in the EU?

Because you're a peein'.


--
Captain Squeeka
Constantly Masticating!

[Love]

In article <skrgrj$enk$1...@dont-email.me>, ans...@gmail.com says...

grrrrr!

--
Love