Q & A with Supreme Master Ching Hai
Star Gazer ***
Supreme Master Ching Hai's visit to Brussels, Belgium on 29 April 1993.
Originally published in the Zhong Yang Daily News, Formosa Oct 3, 1993,
this article is extracted from "The Supreme Master Ching Hai News No. 30"
Q: Is the Supreme Master Ching Hai the only master able to give enlightenment?
M: No, but that is enough. (Master laughs).
Q: What is the difference between sincerely praying to Ching Hai to be saved,
praying sincerely to Jesus Christ to be saved and praying sincerely to Buddha
to be saved?
M: Both have already left and I am still here. (Applause & laughter)
Q: Master Ching Hai, many people here have had their first taste of Nirvana,
reading "The Third Eye", a book written by the Tibetan T. Lobsang Rampa. What
do You think of him? Can the readers still consider his work as a valid
spiritual reference?
M: I am not here to speak about other people. (Applause) If we want to speak
about a person, we need to spend a great deal of time to know this person, to
be able to explain what is good or not good about him. Do you understand? We
cannot speak just like this. We can't talk too casually about someone else.
Okay. Next question.
Q: What is reincarnation ?
M: Reincarnation is a return cycle if you have not found an exit leading you
to paradise. We must go back. Just like on a freeway, if you cannot find the
exit, you must return in order to find it. This is reincarnation.
Q: What is the purpose of animals on earth ?
M: Animals are here to please us. Many people love cats and dogs in Belgium, no?
So you know why they are here, no need to ask me. That's it. Okay.
Q: Can we eat dairy products?
M: Absolutely. I too, for the last few weeks, have been drinking milk and I
don't like it. Lately, we are always on a trip and the type of food is not
always ideal. Plus I am tired because there is too much work, too much
travelling. So this is why I also have to drink milk. It isn't very serious.
(Master laughs) The Buddha drank goat milk also. The Bible doesn't say that
we can not drink milk, right? Have you read it ? No? Not at all?
Q: It is said in the Bible:"Thou shall not kill". Isn't eating herbs and
vegetable also killing?
M: Yes, but in the Bible, God said that He made all the fruit and herbs for
us. He said that we could eat them. This is not the same, because if you cut
a branch of a tree or a vegetable, it will frow into many more branches and
this symbolizes life. But if we want to eat meat, if we cut the head of a cow,
three heads will not grow back. Do you understand? (Audience: Yes!) You are
great, very smart. (Master laughs)
Q: How did the world become such a terrible place, I think about wars and all the
killing and violence? Why? What happened?
M: Because we have created a lot of cause and effect. If we kill too many
animals for instance, we will have to pay for the consequences.
Q: Why are there different races on the planet?
M: Because it is pretty, just like flowers.
Q: Do we need to pray and fast like Jesus did to become a Master?
M: Many people have prayed like Jesus and they didn't become a Jesus. We need
to walk on the road that Jesus walked in order to become a master. Praying to Him won't do it,
because if you pray to a doctor, will this help you become a doctor? No, we must study;
we must work like Him; we must learn with Him.
Q: If we take the initiation, do we have to follow Master for a long time or
can we change and stop whenever we want?
M: Of course, you can do anything you want. But the consequence will not be the
same. You know this, no need to ask such questions. (Master laughs, applause
from the audience.)
Q: How long does the initiation take? Is it done individually?
M: Individually and within; but on the outside, one time is enough.
Q: Is the Quan Yin compatible with orders like the RoseCrucian?
M: Of course, you do not need to change your religion. You must only meditate
two and a half hours every day and follow a vegetarian diet, that's all. You
can stay within th Catholic, the Buddhist or any other religion.
Q: Are animals being in the process of becoming human?
M: Yes, but it takes a long time, a ling, long time.
Q: How can we reach enlightenment so quickly when it is said that usually it
takes several lives?
M: But you already have had many lives, that is enough. (Master laughs) Now
is the time to go back home, you already know. (Applause)
Q: So we can in one life be liberated from reincarnation?
M: In one life yes, it is possible with God's grace and with an experienced
guide who knows the road to bring us back quickly. If not, of course, you are
lost, and then, it takes a long time.
Q: According to You, what can we expect after our physical death with or
without enlightenment?
M: If you have reached enlightenment while you are alive, you will always
have it. If you are not enlightened now, when you die, you are also not
enlightened. That's it.
Q: What do You mean by pschic healing?
M: Psychic healing and enlightenment are two different things.
Q: If someone uses his hands to heal naturally with a method called Reiki,
is this acceptable?
M: If you want to be fully enlightened, you must not interfere with other
people's karma, because by doing this, you will lose your spiritual force
and will remain in the physical side.
Q: Traditional teachings insist on the fact that in giving the same message to
Westerners and Easterners, one takes the risk of failing in conveying that
messge. Can a message be taught both to people from the West as well as
people from the East? Can Your teaching be given both to the people from the
East and to the people from the West?
M: Oh! There is no East and West. There is only the wisdom and the soul. And
wisdom and soul have no color, no race. I only talk to your wisdom, and not
to your physical appearance. I only speak to the greatness within you and not
to the small differences between people. I talk to your soul within you and
not to the insignificant details, cultural differences. These are only the
habits of people of different regions, and none of them is important.
Q: Do animals have a soul?
M: Yes, but it is not very developed.
Q: Can we get in touch with animals that we loved in this life on other
planets of existence?
M: Oh! My God! I suggest you find another one on the street, in a shop. It is
quicker and more practical. (Applause) Thank you !
Q: Master, did You have a chance to visit the countries of Eastern Europe and
when do You plan to go to Poland? I ask this from the bottom of my heart.
M: We have to see what's God's will. I have nothing to decide.
Q: Can we eat fish when we practice the Quan Yin method?
M: No, you cannot eat fish, because a fish is not a vegetable. (Laughter &
applause)
Q: What caused me to be born in my family?
M: Because you have affinities with your family, and that is why.
Q: Are young children purer than adults?
M: Yes, it is true.
Q: I had an out of body experience. Is there a method to achieve this easily?
M: Yes, the Quan Yin Method.
Q: Do we risk being possessed by bad spirits when we meditate? How can we protect
ourselves from them?
M: Sometimes, if our master is not experienced in this field, it can happen;
it is dangerous.
Q: Is it true to think that God started to exist when man started to search
for a truth outside of himself and when man felt the need to pray?
M: Of course. Yes. Yes. God existed before man and when he felt seperated from
God he started to pray because he felt the suffering caused by this seperation.
Q: If man were to disappear, would God disappear with him? What do You think
about that?
M: What do you want? (Laughter) What kind of question is this? (Master laughs.)
It is good if everything was to disappear, because I would have no more work
to do (laughter) and I would disappear also. (Master laughs.)
Q: Are we right to think that a man without conscience, that is, a man that
doesn't pray or worship God is a primitive man?
M: There are many kinds of prayers. Sometimes people pray inside, not having
to go to a church and we cannot say this is not praying. We have to know
the man form inside, not from the outside. There are some people who go to
church that are not as sincere as a person staying at home, taking care of his
family and praying to God in his heart.
Q: How can we help children from being contaminated by modern life, television,
drugs, laziness, arrogance etc., and respect at the same time their so-called
freedom of choice?
M: You can help them by selecting for them what is best on television and from
their environment. So they can also have the freedom to watch television, but not
the freedom to choose bad programs. Freedom is not always the best thing for
children who have noy yet enough intelligence to choose. When they grow up, you
can give them more freedom. But above all, if you lead a life of virtue, goodness
and beauty, you will be an example for your children to follow.
Q: I do not believe in God but I believe in science. Why can't we have adultery
when we are enlightened? (Laughter)
M: It is not that I forbid you. It is your neighbor that does not like you! If
you have an affair with your neighbor's wife, he is going to be the unhappy one,
not me. (Applause & laughter) To be enlightened doesn't mean that we can
create suffering for others, because we have a choice. It isn't a ban, but
rather a kind of mutual protection for the people around us. And, what we do
not want others to do to ourselves, we do not do to others.
Q: Many religious celebrations started with the killing of a lamb, a goat etc.
during the time of Jesus and His disciples. I think it is horrible.
M: It is because they misunderstood the teaching of masters like Jesus, Buddha
or Mohammed. So the answer is enlightenment and nonviolent life, live and let
live.
Q: Master, what do You think about the atrocious war in Yugoslavia?
M: There is a war in many other countries as well. These countries have to
suffer from the cause of too much killing of other beings. Sometimes by killing
each other as humans in some other previous lives. So, when we come back this
life, we are born in a country where there is a war and suffering. That is why
it is said in the Bible, "As you sow so shall you reap", and it isn't only
mentioned in the Buddhist scriptures.
Q: When meditating, if you find yourself as if you were on the ceiling, what
should you do next?
M: Go through the ceiling! (Applause)
Q: What is meditation? I haven't gotten anything so far.
M: There are many kinds of meditation. You have to choose what is suitable for
you. According to my experience with different meditation methods, the heavenly
method, the Quan Yin Method, on the inner light and music, is the best, the
quickest and the safest. So you can try.
Q: Supreme Master, I received initiation of the sound and the light of God from
a perfect master, but did not have the expected experience. Could I ask for a
second initiation, to have an inner experience of God, without denying my other
master? What I am looking for is my own experience of your teaching. I came for
the initiation. Yes or no, Master?
M: Of course, yes, there is no problem. You are welcome.
Q: Where can we meditate?
M: Anywhere, in a park, in a garden, on a bus, on a plane, but not when you
drive a car! You should not! (Laughter) There are two kinds of meditation: one
is on the inner light, and you can meditate anywhere and the other is on the
heavenly music, and in that case you should meditate in private; it is better.
I will explain everything during initiation.
q: Isn't killing aninals necessary to preserve the ecological balance?
M: Why? There are many things we do not kill and they are also balanced. In this
case, we should also kill human beings to achieve a balance, yeah? Same logic.
Because in some countries there are too many people, hungry people, and the
economy is not goood, should we kill them in order to find a balance? Killing
is never good. God said revenge belongs to Him.
Q: Is there a solution to end aggressiveness and violence?
M: No, I don't have it. You have! Everyone has this ability. If we stop
killing animals, if we stop all violent acts, the world will become a paradise.
It is not only my responsibility. Don't you think? (Audience:"Yes" and applauded)
Because if a master, any master could do it, Jesus would have done it already,
Buddha would have done it long time ago. You can't expect this from me, a little
woman, with no power, nothing.
Q: Some people teach enlightenment without the help of a master. With all due
respect, is it necessary to follow a master to be enlightened?
M: If you can do it, it is fine, but it is almost impossible. Up to now no one
has succeeded, maybe up to a certain level but not higher. Do you understand?
(Applause) Okay. Thank you.
Q: Is enlightenment contagious? If a person has reached enlightenment, will he
be able to spread the benefits to others?
M: Yes, but the effect is not complete. So, each one has to find enlightenment
for himself.
Q: How do You explain injustice in the world? Please!
M: It is karma. "As you sow, so shall you reap". Maybe we have created injustice
in other lives. But it is also the collective energy of the world, the whole
population, that created some unfair and some unjust events in the world, and
sometimes we are affected by it.
Q: You give us great pleasure, what can we give You?
M: (Nothing)! I brought enlightenment, the best gift and if you like it, it is
free of charge. You cannot ask for anything better than that. Everything else
is ephemeral. Enlightenment will bring everything that you want, the peace,
the happiness that money cannot buy, the power to save people from hell and
bring them to heaven. This, nothing in the material world can offer. Your
country is stable economically, we do not need to bring you any money or any
material gift. Is that not so?
***** END OF PART ONE ******
joshua geller
not on alt.magick.
josh
___
In article <2lstog$1...@raffles.technet.sg> dbsb...@solomon.technet.sg (Star Gazer ***) writes:
Xref: retix alt.meditation:594 alt.buddha.short.fat.guy:1490 alt.magick:3418
Path: retix!uunet!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!raffles.technet.sg!solomon.technet.sg!dbsbanka
From: dbsb...@solomon.technet.sg (Star Gazer ***)
Newsgroups: alt.meditation,alt.meditation.transcendental,alt.buddha.short.fat.guy,alt.religion.newage,alt.religion.eastern,alt.magick,alt.out-of-body,alt.paranormal
Date: 12 Mar 1994 17:22:24 GMT
Organization: Technet, Singapore
Lines: 319
NNTP-Posting-Host: solomon.technet.sg
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]
Keith Smillie
[ stuff deleted ]
>
>Q: I had an out of body experience. Is there a method to achieve this easily?
>
>M: Yes, the Quan Yin Method.
>
I must have missed this. Can someone describe the Quan Yin method?
==============================================================================
Keith Smillie, 'Look for the bear necessities,
IBM ISL Ltd, The simple bear necessities,
Portsmouth, UK. Forget about your worries and your strife...'
==============================================================================
Anh Minh
let everyone know that it is the closet thing Buddhism had to
fundamentalism. Ching Hai lives in the dogma.
She practices methods of control that Adolph Hitler would be envious of.
Many marriages have been destroyed by this cult which has its basically in
a white light mediation the is in essence "SPIRITUAL ALCOHOLISM" Its a
method of running away from you emotions and yourself.
Members of the cult rarely think much of themselves all they talk about is
there master.
I gave Ching Hai a chance to show that she might have attained some higher
consciousness but all I found was a total fraud. She befriends
politicians not spiritual people. She is interested in one thing POWER.
I have seen her offical publications in which she allows them to call her
"the living God" They think she is enlightened but she can't anseeer my
question has to how is it that I am on levels she has never been on. isn't
the Buddha on all levels?
If you are interested in living in the total Dogma of Ching Hai this is
the path for you. you can learn not to be a vegetarian but a dogmatic
Vegetarian. I never realized what a big difference that was until I met
her
followers. If you are interested in white light bells and whistles while
you are meditating this is the place for you. All I know is that it isn't
the enlightenment the Buddha achieved.
She also compares herself to Jesus Christ. I compare her to the pharisees
he hated so much. She mixed the worst of Buddhism with the worst of
Catholism and came up with someone whose level of consciousness is lower
than that of a Fundamentalist minister.
Anh Minh
i'll be glad to answer any non dogmatic questions,
Many gays and lesbians are vegetarians and naturally attracted t a path
that teaches vegetarianism. The Supreme Master Ching Hai teaches that gays
and lesbians are unnatural. One again she cannot find any statement made
in the Buddhist teaching about this matter but something higher in her
tell he that its is unnatural. It is another example of the JUDGEMENTAL
BUDDHA CHING HAi. Come on folks this is no Buddha, its a fundamentalist.
You can find similar teaching from the Ayatolla Khomani.
When you draw strong dogmatic line people get separated into different
cames. This is what as cause many wars Christian killing Jews, Moslem and
Christians killing each other. It could be vegetarians and carnivores
killing each other if this cult gets to an appreciable size. I say this
because already I have ben told by Vietnamese that they fear speaking
out against Ching Hai. They fear retaliation from her fanatical
followers. What the world does not need is another fundamentalist cult.
We need to return to the teachings of the Buddha and the teachings of
Jesus Christ. It is the essence of these teachings that we should seek
out not the literal..
Sari Ellen Stiles
> I sam very familiar with the teaching of Ching Hai. I and would like to
> let everyone know that it is the closet thing Buddhism had to
> fundamentalism. Ching Hai lives in the dogma.
> She practices methods of control that Adolph Hitler would be envious of.
> Many marriages have been destroyed by this cult which has its basically in
My iconoclast post re:wooden buddhas was directed in respose to THAT post
but the system wouldn't let me follow up... thanks...
Who's been posting the darn thing here anyway... groan!
I really have to be doing homework but I'm going to read the whole news
board anyway....
ROBERT MULROY
>
> I must have missed this. Can someone describe the Quan Yin method?
Well, That's what you have to pay for, It probably consists of not much sleep,
shitloads of sugar, and physical exaustion. but after you have absolutely no
assets, you'll buy anything.
Try Garten-Brau instead. (BASS will do)
Bob
Anh Minh
attained is the non judgement level. At one time I was like Ching Hai and
thought that this non judgement was not so. After listening to her
dogmatic judgments and comparing it to what my Buddhist teacher taught me
was able to understand the Buddha was truly non judgemental.
In one area in particular. I had a lot of trouble understanding was how
someone could be a Buddhist and eat meat. Yet thoughout Asia, most of the
householders are meat eaters. Vegetarianism is usually the practice of
monks who don't have the demands of a job and raising a family. The Buddha
was a vegetarian, or at least most of the writings indicate that he was a
vegetarian. There are some writings which indicate that he might have
eaten meat but one can't make a judgement because of the double meaning of
some terms used. What we do know is that he did not preach vegetarianism.
Here is where Ching Hai and I part ways. She thinks that secretly the
Buddha told his closest followers that enlightenment is not possible
unless one is a vegetarian. According to Ching Hai the Buddha could not
tell the people because they would have left his following. Her problem
is that she may not understand non judgment.
There is a mystery of life. Why life depends upon other forms of life is
not known. It just is. We know that some animals depend exclusively upon
others animals for their life. Some argue that man is a natural
vegetarian but scientists have shown from bones studies that Lucy "the
missing link" was a meat eater. These are all theories and cannot be
proven. On another level, are plants really not conscious. Some people
will debate endlessly that plants have consciousness. Scientists will
show that plants and animals can be trace to the same original cell.
According to them "We are one." If that be the case what difference is it
if I eat plants or animal.
Scientists today are not longer sure that a rock is not a living being.
The Buddha was merely a vegetarian. That was his spirit. If i am going to
imitate the Buddha I should follow my spirit to its fullest as he did. I
tried vegetarianism and it was not my spirit. If i am to be Buddha like i
must not deny my spirit. I do not condemn vegetarians and say that they
will never be enlightened. That is a judgment just as saying that meat
eaters cannot be enlightened as preached by Ching Hai. I say to myself
"Why should I follow someone who is making all these dogmatic judgment
when I have teacher who don't use these judgement." If Ching Hai could
simply be a vegetarin I could respect her but this dogmatic fanatical
approach does not attract me. I have seen followers of her get into
serious health problems because of the fanaticism in the diet. Doctors
told a friend that the Graves disease she got was from the vegetarian diet
endoresed by Ching Hai which had no Iodine supplement. In short i am not
attracted to fanatic. Ivalue the middle path which calls me.
I feel its important to let the world know that Ching Hai heads a dogmatic
sect. Even worse then that is the controls she places on her followers.
This he where she is a real master. HoChiMinh couldn't do as well as she
does. This extreme control over the followers indicates her main interest
is power.
Anh Minh
Ching Hai teaches that Jesus and Buddha never let a drop of alcohol touch
their lips. Anyone who uses alcohol cannot be enlightened. I don't know
how she comes up with these judgements. The scriptures show neither and
the oldest Christian Churches use wine which they believe Jesus used. No
one knows. If it were a major part of their teaching I am would be
inclined to think they would have said it rather than in the case of the
Christ making wine for the wedding. Doctors today say that one or two
drinks a day is good for the health. I have done much study in alcoholism
and drug addiction. I have found one problem in common. Its a running
away from emotions that triggers the same results. In Ching Hai's
meditation they alter the blood flow to the brain creating an state of
chemical imbalance, which is similar to what the drugs and alcohol do.
When one has a emotional problem and runs to alcohol or this escape to
Buddhaland, the problem goes away but is not solved. Eventually the
alcoholic or this case the meditator will reach a place where they cant of
life with or without it. It's a jumping off place. Ancient Buddhist
teachers have always said beware of light meditation its a false
Buddhaland. Like alcohol these mediations have a good use but it must be
used in the balance of the middle path escaping several hours a day as
preached by Ching Hai is on the extreme side. I have learned from the
Theravada to enjoy my life to be it with every day. I don't want to
escape this life I wish to be with it and enjoy it to the fullest. Beware
of fanatics and extremists! She has gone to extrmes stating
that one drop of alcohol will prevent enlightenment just as one
animal protien from a product containated with meat will do the
same. It is impossible to go through life without alcohol enetering ones
system. if you let a glass of juice sit the yeast starts it production of
alcohol. In California major bakeries have to treat their exhaust because
it has much alcohol form the yeast. There is some alcohol in ever bite of
bread.
She worries more about what Jesus ad Buddha ate and did not eat rather
than the essence of their spirit. It's like saying neither Jesus nor
Buddha ever drank Coca Cola, therefore those who drink Coca Cola will not
be enlightened. Jung wrote that Jesus was true to his spirit. This was
his essence. He called the pharisees hypocrites till his least breath, In
that manner my spirit is similar to Jesus. I must let the world know that
Ching Hai is a fake. For she is as dogmatic as those who put the Christ
to death were.
A few months ago a man who was a follower of Ching Hai angrily overturned
tables and threw chairs around, where the group meets in San Jose. He
claimed that he saw a photograph of Ching Hai at a night club.
Anh Minh
the brain of oxygen to select area causing illucinations something likewhat
one gets with LSD. that's the attraction. the danger is the Master's control.
Neil Bernstein
: Ching Hai the Supreme Master of Fools
Good article, Anh Minh, but why no reference to shit?
- N. "suffering shit withdrawal!" B.
--
nwbe...@unix.amherst.edu, lentus in umbra | nudus ara, sere nudus...
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
lee...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
Greetings Anh Minh,
The Buddha was not always vegetarian, only during retreat. Other
times, he ate whatever an alms giver put in his bowl. In fact, it is said
that his final illness was brought upon him by a tainted meal of pork and
mushrooms prepared for him by a blacksmith. It was accidental posioning,
of which the Buddha said was no fault of the blacksmith. In fact, the
Buddha said that his two most important meals were the first one after
enlightenment and his last meal, of which the preparers gained great merit
for providing.
I agree with you: an enlightened person is not judgemental nor do
they discriminate unfairly.
Zman
--
"The lyfe so short, the craft so long to learne." - Chaucer -
.__________________________ __ ____________________________.
| Zatoichi /(o\ Practice before theory. |
| Lee...@maroon.tc.umn.edu \o)/ - Sotetsu Yanagi - |
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'
Gerald Hinteregger
> Q: Many religious celebrations started with the killing of a lamb, a goat etc.
> during the time of Jesus and His disciples. I think it is horrible.
>
> M: It is because they misunderstood the teaching of masters like Jesus, Buddha
> or Mohammed. So the answer is enlightenment and nonviolent life, live and let
> live.
Isn't the preparation of a lamb something which seems to be accepted
in the Bible. Doesn't the father prepare a lamb when the prodigal son
returns? Maybe even Jesus ate lamb on the evening of his arrest (Lk
22,7 and Mk 14,12)? It was ususal, there's nothing which gives the
impression that the eating of meat was in any way condemned by Jesus.
> Q: Some people teach enlightenment without the help of a master. With all due
> respect, is it necessary to follow a master to be enlightened?
>
> M: If you can do it, it is fine, but it is almost impossible. Up to now no one
> has succeeded, maybe up to a certain level but not higher. Do you understand?
> (Applause) Okay. Thank you.
Isn't exactly *that* what the Buddha is said to have achieved?
Okay? Thank you?
Gerald.
--
The universe is an infinitely recursive onion. Even the most sophisticatedly
futile methods of escape ("enlightenment", "salvation") are only able to
propel you to the very next, infinitesimally close layer of the onion. This
other layer is not better than this one. Orientations in the present layer
(good-bad, beautiful-ugly, etc.) do not apply to other layers, what sucks.
Anh Minh
Ching Hai told me that my practice was human energy and hers is spiritual
have difficulty understanding anyone who can separate the two. I have
careful observe the feeling I get after a so called spiritual experience
with the feeling I get after I have performed on the stage. the energy is
the same. There is no difference. Once when I heard about a shaman using
sexual energ and calling it spiritual, I decided to call his bluff. I did
not think that this was possible but i opened myself to the experience.
Instead I came out of his ritual with the greatest spiritual; experience
ofmy life. No one can convince me that there is a difference in the two.
I am human I produce human energy. some call this same energy spiritual.
I cannot see any difference. I opened myself to the experience of Ching
Hai meditation but she refuses to teach it to anyone who refuses to sign
and agree to her total control over the student. If she cannot freely
teach I am not interested.
I learned about these control from THE MASS PSYCHOLOGY OF FASCISM, by
Wilhiem Reich.
On ritual Karl Joung wrote about the prostestant reformation saying that
when the protestents threw out the rituals of the Catholic Church with the
dogma that it was like "throwing the baby out with the dirty bath water."
Ching Hai opposes the use of ritual.
She makes
John Morton x5673
> Anh Minh (anh...@delphi.com) wrote:
> : Ching Hai the Supreme Master of Fools
> Good article, Anh Minh, but why no reference to shit?
> - N. "suffering shit withdrawal!" B.
--
Oh, Neil, this can't possibly be Stavros. This person is pouring
their heart and soul into the exposing of Ching Hai. And a superb
job! But Stavros is arch, drool and sardonic. This person is a
firebrand. Just right for this group!
Sari Ellen Stiles
> The Buddha was not always vegetarian, only during retreat. Other
> times, he ate whatever an alms giver put in his bowl. In fact, it is said
> that his final illness was brought upon him by a tainted meal of pork and
> mushrooms prepared for him by a blacksmith. It was accidental posioning,
Also keep in mind he was in his late 70's (maybe early 80's I don't recall)
which would be pretty old anyway... so possibly it wasn't the dinner itself.
ROBERT MULROY
> Oh, Neil, this can't possibly be Stavros. This person is pouring
> their heart and soul into the exposing of Ching Hai. And a superb
> job! But Stavros is arch, drool and sardonic. This person is a
> firebrand. Just right for this group!
>
A semantic analysis shows these two to be the same person.
Bob
PS: Did you mean droll?
Anh Minh
>Good article, Anh Minh, but why no reference to shit?
I lost my wife to Ching Hai but I got her back,
The Vietnamese community calls it a "Miracle" that I got her back because
Ching Hai's mega control over her flock is powerful.
The University and the Kindergarten
Ching Hai and her followers mock other Buddhists calling them kindergarten
practice while they are attending the University. There is one flaw in
their statement. None of them have gone to kindergarten and they are at a
University without having learned the basics. It is like a student
attending a university before he`learned how to read.
I am still in kindergarten; I love the children! How is it that while I
am still in kindergarten I am on levels not yet achieved by so called
University students who follow Ching Hai. I am far from being enlightened
but I don't claim to be either. Futhermore I know the signs of
enlightenemnt and when I hear students calling Ching Hai "Buddha", I
laugh.
My father in law came out of the Vietnamese concentration camps after 17
years of imprisonment. He survived learning by putting the Theravada to
practice. He is a very happy man. I admire his practice and seek to
attain the levels he has attained. After he came to America, he read much
of Ching Hai literature and saw many tapes. He made the following
statement "When I see such dogma, I am reminded of the Communists. When
they call her Buddha that I can't help but laugh. It's like calling Ho
Chi Minh, Buddha."
Niki LeBoeuf
> I must have missed this. Can someone describe the Quan Yin method?
I wouldn't take this guy seriously... did you read the whole thing?
Ching Hai doesn't strike me as for real. True great masters don't have such
an inflated ego. *grin* "Supreme Master" indeed. PPthththb.
In all absurdity, --Niki
One Vortex, side order of attitude
--
*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+ +*+ *+ + *
+ THIS .SIG OUT OF ORDER
* DUE TO INTENSE ROAD WORK
+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+* *+* +* * +
vort...@mintir.new-orleans.la.us
Lee Rudolph
>Bob
Or troll?
LR
John Morton
Thank goodness you mentioned it. What a difference one little
letter makes! This ranks right up there with the time I was talking
about the Catholic Church canonizing Buddha, and mentioned that Barlaam
(the saint in question) "became a wandering aesthetic", thereby turning
our main man into an itinerant interior decorator. Words are impossible
creatures!
But I beg to differ on the semantic analysis. I too have
examples of both e-mail and postings, and there's more to Anh Minh
than meets the eye.
John
Anh Minh
>neat showing a plane and the map of Taiwan. When we were of Ching Hai
I think a miracle would be a post by Anh Minh without a typo.
The above should read. "When we were over Ching Hai's town."
When I eat a sandwich with lettuce I am aware of ever lettuce cell
screaming for its existence as I much down on it. This doesn't happen
when I eat bread or meat, which is already dead.
Anh Minh
>Good article, Anh Minh, but why no reference to shit?
I was flying to Saigon on China Airline. As we were flying over Taiwan,
they have a computer image which shows you where your are located. It's
neat showing a plane and the map of Taiwan. When we were of Ching Hai
Jessica M. Mcgeary
In a previous article, vort...@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Niki LeBoeuf) says:
>In <CMnIx...@hawnews.watson.ibm.com> Ksmi...@ukssvm1.vnet.ibm.com (Keith Smillie) writes:
>
>> I must have missed this. Can someone describe the Quan Yin method?
>
>I wouldn't take this guy seriously... did you read the whole thing?
>Ching Hai doesn't strike me as for real. True great masters don't have such
>an inflated ego. *grin* "Supreme Master" indeed. PPthththb.
>
>In all absurdity, --Niki
> One Vortex, side order of attitude
>--
I myself pulled up short at the first reference to Lobsang Rampa,
who I just read about this weekend... Lobsang Rampa is mentioned in the
book _Hoaxers And Their Victims_, by Nick Yapp. Seems Mr. Rampa was
actually the wholesale creation of an English fellow whose name escapes me,
and was a rather advanced case of roleplaying. When confronted, the
Englishman said that Rampa had actually found him while dying... Rampa's
soul stepped into the Englishman's body as the Englishman's soul drifted
out, and used his mind to write a bunch of books, is what was said.
It didn't wash.
--
It's all about soul | jm...@po.cwru.edu
It's all about joy that comes out of sorrow | GS/SS d- -p+ c++ l u
It's all about soul | e+ m++ s++/-- !n h---
Who's standing now? Who's standing tomorrow? | f+ g+++(-) w+ t+ r x?
Anh Minh
put her best foot forward leaving much for when she has the follower under
her control. Althought I didn't belief that she was enlightened. I did
think that she was on high levels. Then one night Kwan Cong visited me.
"Ching Hai is a fake." he said with crystal clearness. He was correct.
I've been fighting her since. It's easy to walk away now but I have
compassion for the families that she destroys and the suffering she
causes. Most of her victims are Vietnamese immigrants who are trying to
find someone to show them the way for they have lost much in their bitter
conflict with the government. They do not have much of a background in the
teachings of Buddha. Many haven't learned the art of letting go. She
offers them an escape an escape to Buddhaland. But we don't belong in
Buddhaland, we are on earth.
I fight her for they have suffered enough without having some false god
run all with all their money and leaving their family in ruins.
I have posted enough to give anyone who is interested in following her a
choice. What I like about computers is that I can't be silenced in this
medium. At her lectures anyone who asks a question of her which she feels
threatening is escorted out by her nuns and monks. They try to make the
audience believe that the person is sick in the mind. I don't try to
control people I give them a choice. Even with my wife, I had wished her
luck with her path. Things that I had no control over happened to her
after we parted that brought her to the realization that Ching Hai was a
fake.
It is time for me to get on with my spititualiy and write some more
creative enlightening "shit" under that topic. There are more important
questions to be answered like "Did the Buddha have a cure for worms?"
Lee Rudolph
>There are more important
>questions to be answered like "Did the Buddha have a cure for worms?"
Were the worms sick?
If they were pinworms, that you can catch when you walk barefoot,
would he have had a cure of soles?
cure for worms==ANtHelMINtic
(leave the last H off for savings)
Lee "Tel Tic" Rudolph
Sari Ellen Stiles
> Neil Bernstein <nwbe...@unix.amherst.edu> writes:
> Ching Hai and her followers mock other Buddhists calling them kindergarten
> practice while they are attending the University. There is one flaw in
"Everything I ever needed to know, I learned in Kindergarten" !!!!
Anyone who has spend extended periods of time with very young (but verbal)
children knows they have IT better than any of us can dream of... all that
wisdom... (zeesh) when do we loose it?
(pass some of the blocks Ahn... lets make a castle...)
> I am still in kindergarten; I love the children! How is it that while I
> am still in kindergarten I am on levels not yet achieved by so called
> University students who follow Ching Hai. I am far from being enlightened
darn, I'm answering some of the paragraph before I get to it again...
> but I don't claim to be either.
> My father in law came out of the Vietnamese concentration camps after 17
> years of imprisonment. He survived learning by putting the Theravada to
> practice. He is a very happy man. I admire his practice and seek to
> attain the levels he has attained. After he came to America, he read much
Gee, I've noticed that folks who've been through "living hells" are like
that.... (eg. my long gone, but much beloved Polish grandmother, who
fortunately came to the Midwest US before WWII... some of her friends &
cousins didn't)
Put the man on the Net! I don't even mind if we don't understand a word of
his posts something will come thorough by osmosis....
sari
Sari Ellen Stiles
> Anh Minh <anh...@delphi.com> writes:
"We don' need No stinkin' Gurus...."
--Rayzr (a wierd but with-it friend in the far end
of Indiana... runs a great Shadow Run game...)
"Life makes a lot more sense when you think of it as a school..."
---John & Kat...
"You've already got everything you need to know, it's just missplaced in RAM
somewhere..."
--- a Shadowrun character by the name of Stormshadow in Rayzr's
game...
also from him;
"It's what you DO that counts not what happens TO you..."
(that just about encapsulates karma doesn't it?!)
never mind me.... I'm an art student, I'm SUPPOSED to be crazy...
sari
Johan van Zanten
writes:
> I have posted enough to give anyone who is interested in following her a
> choice. What I like about computers is that I can't be silenced in this
> medium. At her lectures anyone who asks a question of her which she
feels
> threatening is escorted out by her nuns and monks. They try to make the
> audience believe that the person is sick in the mind. I don't try to
> control people I give them a choice.
I've appreciated your postings about Ching Hai. When i read the first
post of the question an answer session with her, i found it somewhat
disturbing. I considered posting a follow-up with some criticisms, but
decided against it, because i had never heard of her before.
I believe one of the things that bothered me about them was a feeling
of insecurity behind some of her more aggressive answers. I imagine that
someone who is enlightened is more like a lighthouse in the distance,
rather than a net cast about you.
Johan van Zanten jo...@evtech.com
"I think so Brain, but how am i going to learn an entire opera in
Yiddish?"
Anh Minh
>never mind me.... I'm an art student, I'm SUPPOSED to be crazy...
Among other things I am a performance artist. For awhile I traveled with
a band of performing shamans in the experimental theater. I was
photographed by Playboy and many others during a performance in L.A. I
lived a fantasy of many women. I was photographed and video taped naked
in my ritual body paint. I wonder if I ever made the center fold. I don't
read the magazine or watch the channel. This I do know I found something
that they were looking for. I think they are still looking.
It was here that I had the greatest spiritual experience of my life. Some
call it magic. It brought me to levels I didn't believe exist. My logical
mind didn't give it credibility but once experienced I can't deny it.
Sari Ellen Stiles
> Sari Ellen Stiles <sa...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu> writes:
>>never mind me.... I'm an art student, I'm SUPPOSED to be crazy...
>
> An Art Student!!!!! Good Gravy!!!!!!
phrase while drooling over armor and a very very nasty.lovely looking
dagger in the Medievall room at the Art Institute in Chicago on an SCA
(Society for Creative AnaCHRONism)field trip. (I think I may have frightend
Lord Thomas Longshanks a wee bit. =) )
> Among other things I am a performance artist. For awhile I traveled with
> a band of performing shamans in the experimental theater. I was
at me... zeesh...) but then again isn't SCA sort of performance art?
> It was here that I had the greatest spiritual experience of my life. Some
> call it magic. It brought me to levels I didn't believe exist. My logical
> mind didn't give it credibility but once experienced I can't deny it.
As for me, magic is an everyday occurrence! and every creative endevor
spiritual whether the artist or audience percieve it or not...
(later I may sit down and play with this Mandala program... I haven't
loaded it up in a long time.)
>
Bill Keyes
> Yeah, and Graphic Design to keep beans on the table....I cam up with that
>phrase while drooling over armor and a very very nasty.lovely looking
>dagger in the Medievall room at the Art Institute in Chicago on an SCA
>(Society for Creative AnaCHRONism)field trip. (I think I may have frightend
Oh, you must mean the Society for Compulsive Accuracy...
Bill. ("You can't call yourself that, it isn't confirmed by 6 different sources"
* Cry "Eek Eek," and let ******* Jrrrr-Lwsss *******
*** slip the Ferrets of War! ***** The Ferrotti from Hell *****
***** (with apologies to *** bke...@lamar.colostate.edu **
******* Wm. Shakespeare) * 14 feet of pure ferret fury. *
John Morton
> Can you have Love of all creatures in your heart, and the meat of
> creatures in your stomach?
Can you truly say that the lives of animals are worth more than
the lives of plants? Or that animals deserve more love than plants?
> ...Cruelty is implicit in meat eating even
> if you don't slaughter the animals yourself. Cruelty is keeping
> animals in cages not large enough for them to walk a single step,
> all their lives. Earth for man is Hell for animals. Can we expect
> mercy when we show none?
No mercy. Killing is killing, whoever or whatever it is done to.
The one universal insult is when one being treats another being
like food. And earth is hell for many people, many vegetarians too.
> What Gautama Buddha is said to have achieved is enlightenment. But he did
> not achieve it in a single lifetime. He practised for aeons, and had even
> met the previous Buddha. It is possible that he had been initiated by
> another Buddha...
Buddha asked, Did I attain the good law from the Buddha before me?
Subhuti answered, No, nothing was attained.
---
Buddha said, Wherever there is possession of qualities, there is delusion.
Wherever there is no possession and no qualities, there is no delusion.
---
If we knew all the effects of our actions, we would become worried and
confused. The good law is unknowable; likewise, its effects are unknowable.
John
Giam Siew Hua Patricia
Seetoh Wai Keong
: In article <2lstog$1...@raffles.technet.sg>, Star Gazer *** wrote:
: > Q: Many religious celebrations started with the killing of a lamb, a goat etc.
: > during the time of Jesus and His disciples. I think it is horrible.
: >
: > M: It is because they misunderstood the teaching of masters like Jesus, Buddha
: > or Mohammed. So the answer is enlightenment and nonviolent life, live and let
: > live.
: Isn't the preparation of a lamb something which seems to be accepted
: in the Bible. Doesn't the father prepare a lamb when the prodigal son
: returns? Maybe even Jesus ate lamb on the evening of his arrest (Lk
: 22,7 and Mk 14,12)? It was ususal, there's nothing which gives the
: impression that the eating of meat was in any way condemned by Jesus.
Can you have Love of all creatures in your heart, and the meat of
creatures in your stomach? Cruelty is implicit in meat eating even
if you don't slaughter the animals yourself. Cruelty is keeping
animals in cages not large enough for them to walk a single step,
all their lives. Earth for man is Hell for animals. Can we expect
mercy when we show none?
: > Q: Some people teach enlightenment without the help of a master. With all due
: > respect, is it necessary to follow a master to be enlightened?
: >
: > M: If you can do it, it is fine, but it is almost impossible. Up to now no one
: > has succeeded, maybe up to a certain level but not higher. Do you understand?
: > (Applause) Okay. Thank you.
: Isn't exactly *that* what the Buddha is said to have achieved?
: Okay? Thank you?
What Gautama Buddha is said to have achieved is enlightenment. But he did
not achieve it in a single lifetime. He practised for aeons, and had even
met the previous Buddha. It is possible that he had been initiated by another
Buddha, and the achievement of liberation can be traced to this seed.
Teaching about liberation, if not absolutely necessary, is at least
extremely useful - that's why Gautama Buddha taught for the rest of his
life.
Seetoh.
Seetoh Wai Keong
: In a previous article, vort...@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Niki LeBoeuf) says:
: >In <CMnIx...@hawnews.watson.ibm.com> Ksmi...@ukssvm1.vnet.ibm.com (Keith Smillie) writes:
: >
: >> I must have missed this. Can someone describe the Quan Yin method?
The Quan Yin method is a method of meditation.
The Quan Yin method is a two-fold method, and if I understand correctly,
there is some emphasis on the wisdom eye. However, it is quite unlike
other methods eg. TM, Samatha, Vipassana, Tantric visualisation, or
Yoga, self-hypnosis, or Eckankar, or Taoist methods (heavenly cycle).
It is
more explicit than ancient Zen.
: >
: >I wouldn't take this guy seriously... did you read the whole thing?
: >Ching Hai doesn't strike me as for real. True great masters don't have such
: >an inflated ego. *grin* "Supreme Master" indeed. PPthththb.
: >
: >In all absurdity, --Niki
: > One Vortex, side order of attitude
: >--
In Zen, it was said that "small doubts give rise to small enlightenment,
and big doubts to big enlightenment."
Many are the disciples of the Supreme Master who have had doubts.
But when they see the inner Master, all doubts are washed away.
"Supreme Master" is a title - not a reflection of the ego.
For example, if you are not familiar with Shijando (a form of karate
that is not commonly known, and has few masters), then you may think that
a black belt could be self-imposed. But that is not so.
Our ignorance of a system does not make its Masters fakes.
: I myself pulled up short at the first reference to Lobsang Rampa,
: who I just read about this weekend... Lobsang Rampa is mentioned in the
: book _Hoaxers And Their Victims_, by Nick Yapp. Seems Mr. Rampa was
: actually the wholesale creation of an English fellow whose name escapes me,
: and was a rather advanced case of roleplaying. When confronted, the
: Englishman said that Rampa had actually found him while dying... Rampa's
: soul stepped into the Englishman's body as the Englishman's soul drifted
: out, and used his mind to write a bunch of books, is what was said.
: It didn't wash.
:
When you get food poisoning from eating wrongly, you don't stop eating.
You simply become more careful next time you eat.
Would you let a so-called "fake Rampa" stop you from searching?
Seetoh.
Tim Poston
: Lee Rudolph <rud...@cis.umassd.edu> writes:
:
: >cure for worms==ANtHelMINtic
:
: Am I a vermafuge or vermacide?
No. You are a vermifuge or vermicide.
--
___________________________________________________________________
Tim Poston Institute of Systems Science, Nat. Univ. of Singapore
sig = +--- (time is positive)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
John Fraser
>
>The Quan Yin method is a two-fold method, and if I understand correctly,
>there is some emphasis on the wisdom eye. However, it is quite unlike
>other methods eg. TM, Samatha, Vipassana, Tantric visualisation, or
>Yoga, self-hypnosis, or Eckankar, or Taoist methods (heavenly cycle).
Can you tell me more about the heavenly cycle. Is it the same technique advocated
by Mantak Chia to circulate energy in the body?
Thanks,
John
Sari Ellen Stiles
>
> four, not including the parants, survived the small pents survived the small
> pox.
Oh dear! and I thought that stealing potatoes from the fields under the
watchful eyes of "the soldiers" (who's soldiers? she didn't know or care...)
was a scary story!
Gramma lived till her early 90's her baby sister is still alive and I think
one or two of the brothers. All 7-8 of them have diabetes! (the deceased
siblings usually taken by complications of same.) The family therefore is
very very watchfull of their own blood sugar levels as they themselves reach
and pass middle age. (how much genetic, and how much childhood malnutrition
and then lots of good rich food in America...)
Sari Ellen Stiles
> silenced. Stavros and Anh Minh are the same. (I am so bright my
> mother calls me sonny) Maybe I better explain that, Minh is the
> raising sun rays. Anh is the older brother. Stavros is the holy
> cross. My sacred shaman name is Rainbow Man.
"Rainbow man, Rainbow man, shines in the sky
this Rainbow man..."
(the song goes something like "Particle man Particle man,
does everything a particle can.
When he goes in the water does he get wet?
or does the water get him..."
Particle man meets Triangle man,
.....blah blah blah... well it goes on..."
What IS the name of that song? and who does it?!
> Stavros is the name given to me by the Greek Orthodox and Anh
> Minh is the name given to me by the Buddhists in Saigon. Rainbow
> Man was given to my by the audience in L.A. (until then, Stavros
see names can be really important.
> really have to say anything.
Nahhh, but it was SO much fun...
sari
Bill Keyes
>(the song goes something like "Particle man Particle man,
>does everything a particle can.
>When he goes in the water does he get wet?
>or does the water get him..."
>Particle man meets Triangle man,
>.....blah blah blah... well it goes on..."
>
>What IS the name of that song? and who does it?!
The song is "Particle Man," by They Might Be Giants, on the album _Flood_.
Available at fine (and probably crummy) record stores everywhere. =)
Track 7, to be exact. Good album. =)
Bill ("Hey, I guess it *does* pay to be the gen X-er of the group!")
Sari Ellen Stiles
>>Particle man meets Triangle man,
>>.....blah blah blah... well it goes on..."
>
> The song is "Particle Man," by They Might Be Giants, on the album _Flood_.
> Available at fine (and probably crummy) record stores everywhere. =)
> Track 7, to be exact. Good album. =)
>
> Bill ("Hey, I guess it *does* pay to be the gen X-er of the group!")
Thank YOU ever so much!... now I can get it out of my head...(that's what I
get from watching Tiny Toons w/the kid) I have been singing and humming (and
mutilating the lyrics) for weeks now...
Bill Keyes
>> The song is "Particle Man," by They Might Be Giants, on the album _Flood_.
>> Available at fine (and probably crummy) record stores everywhere. =)
>> Track 7, to be exact. Good album. =)
>
>get from watching Tiny Toons w/the kid) I have been singing and humming (and
>mutilating the lyrics) for weeks now...
Heh heh... y'know, that's one of the few episodes that I have yet to see,
and I really, really want to, 'cause it's also got "Istanbul (not
Constantinople)" on it... And Babs singing Aretha's "R-E-S-P-E-C-T"...
I'm missing out!
Bill. ("We're tiny, we're toony, we're all a little looney!")
Niki LeBoeuf
>Can you have Love of all creatures in your heart, and the meat of
>creatures in your stomach? Cruelty is implicit in meat eating even
>if you don't slaughter the animals yourself.
I would ask you back: can you have Love of all Divine Creations and Living
Beings when you have just eaten a hearty salad? The lettuce, the onion, the
carrot all were killed as surely as the cow was if you eat beef.
Didn't that Ching Hai, when asked "For what purpose are the other animals
here?", answer, "For us to use as we will?" I don't still have the message
to quote, though, so I may have it miswritten. But it doesn't seem like much
love or respect when one believes that other animals are here only to serve
us. It sounds more like a master/slave relationship. And if Ching Hai
believes in that, he's being mighty hypocritical to tell us to switch to a
vegetarian diet for purely moral purposes.
--Niki
ps. beginning to think that this is getting a little off from alt.out-of-body.
--
*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+ +*+ *+ + *
+ THIS .SIG OUT OF ORDER
* DUE TO EXCESSIVE AND UNUSUAL HOMEWORK PHENOMENA
Niki LeBoeuf
>When you get food poisoning from eating wrongly, you don't stop eating.
>You simply become more careful next time you eat.
>Would you let a so-called "fake Rampa" stop you from searching?
Bingo. I don't turn into a skeptic/cynic overnight just because "Supreme
Master" Ching Hai has left a nasty taste in my mouth. I just keep looking
/else/where.
"Supreme Master" may just be a title, but I refuse to call anyone "master"
unless they convince me that they are my master. I'm not convinced yet.
And as someone else said, the other half of "master" is "slave". Kind of
like the other half of "Holy Shepherd" is "sheep." AND I AIN'T NO F'ING
SHEEP! Thank you.
--Niki
Stavros Krysiak aka Anh Minh
write a story I heard from Jack Kornfield then I'll apply it to
my ancestors. It's about non judgement. Ching Hai has trouble
believing that the Buddha was non judgemental. e horse. When he
brought the horse home the people in the village said "That is
good!" He replied, "We will see."
A few moths later the horse ran away. The people in the village
said "That is bad!" He replied, "We will see." The horse cam
back with a stallion. The people in the village said "That is
good!" He replied, "We will see." The man's son fell off the
stallion trying to train it and broke his leg." The people
village said "That is bad!" He replied, "We will see." A war
broke out and the army came to draft all the young men in the
village. They didn't `take the man's son because he had a broken
leg. The people in the village said "That is good!" He replied,
"We will see." This story goes on and on.
The Mongols went through Poland raping and looting. My Mongol
blood may have come from one of these rapes. I owe my existence
to a rape. Is this good? Is this bad? What is good? What is
bad? an African chief once said "When i steal my enemies wives
wife that is good." When he steals mine "That is bad."
I mentioned the ?Thai Pirates. If you ask them if a rape is good
or bad they might say "Very Good." The family and victim might
say "Very Bad" Maybre good and bad really don't exisit. Maybe
its just attraction and aversion. I am not attracted to rape so
I try to avoid the circumstances and people who are attracted to
it. Sometime I can't avoid them so I use the power that hey use
only I ue it to build a building and lock them up. Or I see a
man raping a woman and I use the same force and power he is
using to make him stop. He has a knife and he is ready to stab
her I have n knife and I stab him first. On and on it goes.
What is good? What is bad? A psychopath once told me he was
very upset with his mother who was called to jury duty. "She
will be sending my friends to jail.", he said.
Jim Huddle
Obviously, no one knows the absolute nature of good and evil.
When I hear the son broke his leg riding the stallion, I say "good"
not because of the draft thing (bad), but because it kept the
little general off the damn horse!
(is my animal rights background showing?)
Good is relative. It exists because I say it does. And I will
continue to say it does until I *learn* better, not until I am
told to say differently.
Say I eat newborn human babies alive for lunch.
THIS IS BAD. If I cannot see this, I need to grow.
Say I go to the grocery store and buy "baby flake round" (packaged
dead human babies) and eat it for lunch.
Still BAD.
So I switch from newborn babies to newborn cow babies. (veal)
Still Bad.
from veal to hamburger
Still bad.
to fish
bad
say I go with insects (worms, etc)
b.a.d.
How about vegetables?
Still bad, but that's where I am at now.
only fruit that has fallen naturally from the vine.
They Might Be Bad.
The nutrients that can be found in the Hudson River
don't ask.
Air.
Now maybe we have something.
There is a breatharian in Northern California. I've never tried it.
I'm still murdering vegetables.
Everything is relative, but if you give up your understanding
blindly for a concept, you don't get there.
Eating meat because it is your Bhudda nature is the equivalent
of murdering Jews because it is your Christ nature.
Do not let the Piggly Wiggly lull you to sleep.
Go out and kill your own cow. And don't use a gun. Use your
bare hands. Invite your friends, because there'll be a lot of
meat and a lot of clean-up afterwards. Don't fool yourself.
Murder is murder, whether you do it or pay somebody to do it 4U.
Bhudda would probably not give a shit what you did, but I am
pretty sure that he gave a shit what HE did. That is how
non-judgementalism works. *I* care what you do, but I do not
claim to be non-judgemental.
I DO want you to find enlightenment (whoever you are).
I DO NOT want you to pretend killing is OK.
That concept is America's claim to perhaps the least enlightened
concept ever conceived. Killing is NOT OK. We shall NOT SEE.
TAKE MY WORD FOR IT. KILLING IS BAD. DO NOT KILL.
Wanna talk about Karma?...
Damn soapbox. I got a splinter!
-Jim
"Meat is Murder" - PeTA
Terry Alford
ecl...@clark.net (Jim Huddle) writes:
stuff deleted
> Damn soapbox. I got a splinter!
>
And, is getting that splinter good or bad?
Bill Keyes
ecl...@clark.net (Jim Huddle) writes:
>Obviously, no one knows the absolute nature of good and evil.
"A path is made by many people walking on it."
>Good is relative. It exists because I say it does.
.....
[big snipperoo here]
.....
>Killing is NOT OK. We shall NOT SEE.
>TAKE MY WORD FOR IT. KILLING IS BAD. DO NOT KILL.
Wait a sec... good is reletive, but this idea is not? hmmmm.....
>Wanna talk about Karma?...
All of us are hanging from the same cliff. The tiger stands above us,
the river roars beneath, day and night eat away our fragile post. Escape?
Death. Have a strawberry.
Bill.
("I went to the store and saw a package of bacon that said "This product is
the result of cruelty to animals!" I bought it just for the sticker. =) ")
Marc Wachowitz
> "Supreme Master" may just be a title, but I refuse to call anyone "master"
> unless they convince me that they are my master. I'm not convinced yet.
> And as someone else said, the other half of "master" is "slave".
If the English word "master" is used as the German equivalent ("Meister"),
which I think it is, then it can as well be understood in the sense of the
master of a craft - which doesn't imply enslaving anyone. E.g. in Zen most
of the time "Roshi" is translated as "master", too, though it simply means
"old teacher" (where "old" refers more to the wisdom than to the age).
[Just a general comment, without taking any side in this particular case.]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* wonder everyday * nothing in particular * all is special *
Marc Wachowitz <m...@ipx2.rz.uni-mannheim.de>
Andrew Boniface
>
>The Mongols went through Poland raping and looting. My Mongol
>blood may have come from one of these rapes. I owe my existence
>to a rape. Is this good? Is this bad? What is good? What is
>bad?
I think if we undid all rapes, the human race would vanish,
because everyone has a rape in their family tree.
I am here, perhaps, because of the bombing of Hiroshima
and Nagasaki, if not for this, my father would have been
shot evacuating wounded Marines from amphibious landings.
So it goes.
Andrew
Christina Hulbe
Jim Huddle <ecl...@clark.net> wrote a lot about:
>Vegetarianism, good and evil.
here is the part that really hit home for me:
>Bhudda would probably not give a shit what you did, but I am
>pretty sure that he gave a shit what HE did. That is how
>non-judgementalism works.
I have been lacto-vegetarian for a while. In the last 6 or 8
months I have left off dairy, refined sugar, etc. as well. I do
this because I perceive it to be the best thing to do. It is a
rule I give myself. Maybe some days I am not so careful and eat
something with refined sugar in it. Is this bad? Maybe, but only
because I decided to walk along a path that does not go that way.
So, this is an interesting thing. Some things society says
are bad. Some extra things, I say are bad. What if some of
the society-bad things are things I think are good. Is it more
"bad" to violate my rules or the society-says-no-but-I-say-okay
rules?
Sure, the latter might land me in the klink but there
would be more time to ponder in there...
Tina :)
Christina Hulbe
chu...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Byrd Polar Research Center, *Kinder, Gentler* Ohio State University
Stavros Krysiak aka Anh Minh
The Vietnamese press has finally broken its silence. A
Vietnamese Newspaper in San Jose has publicity came out against
Ching Hai, exposing her as a fraud.
There has been so much fear in the Vietnamese Community that no
one would dare say anything out of fear or retaliation form her
fanatical followers. I have received mail calling mew very
courageous.
With the ice broken in San Jose, I expect this to spread world
wide. In her latest stunt, she took a bath and her followers
drank the healing waters, which touched the skin of their
goddess.
Jim Huddle
: Vegetarianism, good and evil.
: How about vegetables?
: Still bad, but that's where I am at now.
: only fruit that has fallen naturally from the vine.
: They Might Be Bad.
Glen Wright (kes...@bga.com) wrote:
: 'Might be' does not exist in this discussion. As soon as you say 'might
: be' you sanction killing. Life is life-and-as some people here have
: asserted-even inanimate particle configurations may possess a form of it.
: Respect for other life forms does not eliminate in humans a passionate
: need to taste them. And besides, life exists to be consumed and
: re-configured.
1. Notice I had already written the word "bad" in many ways.
2. I got bored and played off of They Might Be Giants :-()
3. I may screw up in my communique, but I do NOT sanction killing (FTR).
4. Passionate need sux. Ask Bhudda.
5. Tasting murder victims sux.
6. "Life exists to be consumed..." I believe you quote James Watt? :)
I used to eat meat. I love it! ooh, I could just taste a sizzling
two-inch thick medium rare rib, right now. I am dead serious.
You simply acknowledge the murder and get beyond it. But don't play
games. When you get to heaven, nobody's going to shake your hand
and say, "You surre talked your way out of that one!"
And screwing the heaven concept for a moment (do I smell something
burning?), there's plenty of REAL reasons not to animals for food
right here and now on this plane of existence.
Listen, I know I'm coming off like the net's AR advocate, but a big
part of that is the whole real reality thing, and I hate to get
respnses from bhuddanetland from people who seem to be reacting
from a fear base!
Knock it off. Work through your neuroses, don't defend them!
I don't care whether Bhudda ate animals in secret or not.
I care about me, my environment, and (if you'll excuse the reference)
all sentient beings. That's where I'm coming from.
-Jim
"And there were five forks sticking out of Uncle Vercie's hand..."
John A. Douglas
In a previous article, anh...@delphi.com (Stavros Krysiak aka Anh Minh) says:
>YA HOO!!!
>
> [...]
> ... ice broken in San Jose ...
>
you mean I can get a cold drink in San Jose?
YA HOO TOO!!
El Dupree (On the way to El Paso)
--
Victoria Freenet: The Garden Corner of Cyberspace.
Stavros Krysiak aka Anh Minh
>of the time "Roshi" is translated as "master", too, though it simply means
>"old teacher" (where "old" refers more to the wisdom than to the age).
Supreme Master carried more weight rather than master.
She says that Buddha and Christ are dead, We have her.
Tim Poston
: I've not heard of Slave of Business Administration, although I've heard
: of MBA. The other half of "master" can be master, like "spouse" is to
: spouse. There is really no need to be a slave.
The polite term commonly used is Graduate Student,
but Slave is shorter and more accurate.
E.J.Leoni-Smith
> If we want to minimise destruction,
>we would be vegetarians. Do you agree?
No. If we wanted to minimise destruction we would all be suicides. That
is the logical extension of the vegetarian thesis.
Reductio ad absurbum is the hallmark of specious argument.
Random
person abuses all resources to such a degree that eating meat is only a
small factor in the overall damage we do. At the same time, It seems to
me, we could use this argement to do nothing about everything.
I was discussing becoming a vegetarian with a Dada some time back and he
gave me a few good reasons that has nothing to do with right or wrong.
He strongly felt that being a vegetarian was essential to meditation.
Before becoming a Dada he did eat meat. He said that he meditated several
years as a meat eater. When he decided to give up eating meat he was
almost immediately better able to reach the more advanced stages of
meditation with less time and effort. He also mentioned the fact that
meat eating animals such as a lion have intestines that are very much
less in length than those found in us.
I also think that meat is just another of those things in life where we
must make the decision between what is right and what we want to do. I
think there is nothing more tasty than a rib eye grilled to perfection.
I also know that is one more aspect of myself where must make a daily
struggle to do what is right. With the possible exception of pregnant
women, what good does it do a person to eat meat?
Robert
Seetoh Wai Keong
: >Can you have Love of all creatures in your heart, and the meat of
: >creatures in your stomach? Cruelty is implicit in meat eating even
: >if you don't slaughter the animals yourself.
: I would ask you back: can you have Love of all Divine Creations and Living
: Beings when you have just eaten a hearty salad? The lettuce, the onion, the
: carrot all were killed as surely as the cow was if you eat beef.
Weight for weight a slice of veal represents much more
destruction of plants than a salad. If we want to minimise destruction,
we would be vegetarians. Do you agree?
: Didn't that Ching Hai, when asked "For what purpose are the other animals
: here?", answer, "For us to use as we will?" I don't still have the message
: to quote, though, so I may have it miswritten. But it doesn't seem like much
--Niki
I'm afraid you've misquoted. To what purpose should we discuss
a misquote?
Seetoh.
Seetoh Wai Keong
: >When you get food poisoning from eating wrongly, you don't stop eating.
: >You simply become more careful next time you eat.
: >Would you let a so-called "fake Rampa" stop you from searching?
: Bingo. I don't turn into a skeptic/cynic overnight just because "Supreme
: Master" Ching Hai has left a nasty taste in my mouth. I just keep looking
With my best wishes. May you find the Truth.
: "Supreme Master" may just be a title, but I refuse to call anyone "master"
: unless they convince me that they are my master. I'm not convinced yet.
: And as someone else said, the other half of "master" is "slave". Kind of
: like the other half of "Holy Shepherd" is "sheep."
: --Niki
: --
I've not heard of Slave of Business Administration, although I've heard
of MBA. The other half of "master" can be master, like "spouse" is to
spouse. There is really no need to be a slave.
With reference to "Holy Shepherd", it is known that the "Lamb" is
called the "Calf of God" in some Indian traditions. It is not some
kind of subservient relationship that is implied - rather, it is
a relationship of care & love. When we care for someone, there
is no implication of subservience.
Seetoh.
Peggy Brown
>In article <Cnr8M...@elmail.co.uk>
>struggle to do what is right. With the possible exception of pregnant
>women, what good does it do a person to eat meat?
>
>Robert
Its an efficient and uncomplicated method of getting adequate
(complete) protein and iron. Doesn't take much meat to
accomplish this.
I see all this squabbling about meat to be just another twist in
the old saga about how mankind should deny mammalian traits and
raise itself to a higher level. Not the sort of thing I buy
into. In fact, I think its harmful to repress mammalian traits.
Its part of my nature to use my environment to my advantage, so
I don't worry about it. If you want to blame someone for this,
then blame whomever set the system up and put me (us) in it.
A strict taboo on meat is too fanatical for my tastes.:)
- Peggy -
Disclaimer: I do recycle my trash. I do buy products made from
recycled materials when I see them and when they aren't
overpriced.
John Morton
>
> I see all this squabbling about meat to be just another twist in
> the old saga about how mankind should deny mammalian traits and
> raise itself to a higher level. Not the sort of thing I buy
Right on! My species worked for millions of years to learn how to
digest meat. I'm not going to renounce that achievement in the name
of some fad of only 25 years - or 2500 years - duration.
And on the subject of scare resources, please consider these two
facts: (1) ALL the people on earth, standing shoulder to shoulder,
could stand in 25 miles square (a square 25 miles on a side) - on
a globe one foot in diameter, this wouldn't even be as big as the
head of a pin, and (2) vis-a-vis the U.S., America has twice the
arable land as China, yet China has 4 times the population of the
U.S. and feeds its people. Therefore, if we were willing to live
on a Chinese diet (mostly grain), America could increase its
population EIGHTFOLD.
John
(P.S. I greatly respect the people who don't eat meat; especially the
ones who like it, and resist eating it for the purpose of mindfulness
of the environment we live in. I also respect my body, and my body has
a whole host of things it refuses to eat. It protects me by refusing
to eat those things. Meat is not one of them. Yet. [Although this
thread has caused me to question my eating habits for the last few
weeks.])
Lee Rudolph
> (2) vis-a-vis the U.S., America has twice the
> arable land as China,
And indeed, the population density of Massachusetts is greater than
that of India.
LR
Luke C. Bairan
>In <2mvuc8$e...@acad1.tp.ac.sg> waik...@acad1.tp.ac.sg (Seetoh Wai Keong) writes:
>
>>Can you have Love of all creatures in your heart, and the meat of
>>creatures in your stomach? Cruelty is implicit in meat eating even
>>if you don't slaughter the animals yourself.
>
>I would ask you back: can you have Love of all Divine Creations and Living
>Beings when you have just eaten a hearty salad? The lettuce, the onion, the
>carrot all were killed as surely as the cow was if you eat beef.
>
question really is, How much suffering is required to support your
life? That is where vegetarianism becomes a moral question. Carrots
suffer much less than cows when they die.
If you really don't see the difference between eating a plant and
eating an animal, then don't sweat it. You've got long way to go before
food takes on moral implications.
Quan Yin does not speak for all Buddhists or vegetarians. We all
speak for ourselves.
L.B.
Luke C. Bairan
>Just to throw my 2 cents onto the railroad tracks...
>
>ecl...@clark.net (Jim Huddle) writes:
>
>All of us are hanging from the same cliff. The tiger stands above us,
>the river roars beneath, day and night eat away our fragile post. Escape?
>Death. Have a strawberry.
>
>Bill.
Mmmmmmmmmmm, Delicious strawberry. Don't usually eat and run, but...
L.B.
Luke C. Bairan
>No. If we wanted to minimise destruction we would all be suicides. That
>is the logical extension of the vegetarian thesis.
Is that so?
>Reductio ad absurbum is the hallmark of specious argument.
Agreed.
L.B.
Sheila Patterson
In article <Cnso...@draco.nova.edu>, bai...@polaris.nova.edu (Luke C. Bairan) writes:
|(stuff deleted)
|> To state the obvious, all life needs life to sustain it. The
|> question really is, How much suffering is required to support your
|> life? That is where vegetarianism becomes a moral question. Carrots
|> suffer much less than cows when they die.
|> If you really don't see the difference between eating a plant and
|> eating an animal, then don't sweat it. You've got long way to go before
|> food takes on moral implications.
|>
|> Quan Yin does not speak for all Buddhists or vegetarians. We all
|> speak for ourselves.
|>
|> L.B.
|>
|>
|>
|>
um... I remember people experimenting with kurlian (sp?) photography and how plants
that were injured gave off a different aura and yogurt cultures that had one end of
a wire immersed with them and the other one attached to the plant literally screamed
at the time of the mutilation.
different life form, different reality. Because I am not a carrot, does that make the
carrot any less of a life form ?
my God, the only solution to the problem of harming life IS suicide !
heh heh..
--
Sheila Patterson, CIT CR-Technical Support Group, Cornell University
s...@lemur.cit.cornell.edu sf...@cornell.edu s...@cornellc.bitnet
Amanda Baggs
Peggy Brown <oisp...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>In article <16F8F6B5S...@mizzou1.missouri.edu>, C60...@mizzou1.missouri.edu (Random) writes...
>>In article <Cnr8M...@elmail.co.uk>
[stuff deleted]
>I see all this squabbling about meat to be just another twist in
>the old saga about how mankind should deny mammalian traits and
>raise itself to a higher level. Not the sort of thing I buy
>into. In fact, I think its harmful to repress mammalian traits.
[more stuff deleted]
I think the thing that most people, when speaking on this issue, forget
to mention, is that vegetarianism is a *personal choice*. It is
absolutely not the sort of thing that one person should be able to tell
another to do or not to do. I am a vegetarian, but I have never tried to
convince anyone else to become one. I do it, if you want my reason,
because I *personally* can't stand the thought of eating an animal. Some
people can. They can eat all the meat they want.
/\ /\ Nightsong ----------------------------------------------------------
o o nigh...@netcom.com With the lights on, nothing is visible
- Dark is more colourful than the brightest light
\_|_/ MiAoW! -------------|-----------------------------------------------
Seetoh Wai Keong
: In article <2nplio$n...@acad1.tp.ac.sg> waik...@acad1.tp.ac.sg (Seetoh Wai Keong) writes:
: > If we want to minimise destruction,
: >we would be vegetarians. Do you agree?
: No. If we wanted to minimise destruction we would all be suicides. That
: is the logical extension of the vegetarian thesis.
Suicides destroy themselves, if not their families or dependents.
More importantly, suicides destroy any opportunity to better the world.
Suicides signify the end of hope, the torch-bearer of mankind.
The destruction of suicides is pernicious - destroying oneself,
possibly others, and definitely the hopes of those who
wish you well. It represents destruction on both the physical and
mental planes.
Vegetarians do not make the assumption that killing oneself
represents less destruction than killing plants. How do you
justify such an assumption?
Seetoh.
Bill Davis
writes:
|>In article <CnsG6...@acsu.buffalo.edu>,
|>Peggy Brown <oisp...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> wrote:
|>>In article <16F8F6B5S...@mizzou1.missouri.edu>,
|>C60...@mizzou1.missouri.edu (Random) writes...
|>>>In article <Cnr8M...@elmail.co.uk>
|>
|>[stuff deleted]
|>
|>>I see all this squabbling about meat to be just another twist in
|>>the old saga about how mankind should deny mammalian traits and
|>>raise itself to a higher level. Not the sort of thing I buy
|>>into. In fact, I think its harmful to repress mammalian traits.
|>
|>[more stuff deleted]
|>
|>I think the thing that most people, when speaking on this issue, forget
|>to mention, is that vegetarianism is a *personal choice*. It is
|>absolutely not the sort of thing that one person should be able to tell
|>another to do or not to do. I am a vegetarian, but I have never tried to
|>convince anyone else to become one. I do it, if you want my reason,
|>because I *personally* can't stand the thought of eating an animal. Some
|>people can. They can eat all the meat they want.
I do not try to convince others to become vegetarians on
moral or health grounds. I do point out the health benefits
when asked, as people seem to understand some amount of it.
I have a brother-in-law who now eats very little meat because
he was unable to keep it down during chemotherapy. He
is recovered from cancer and never went back to meat.
Now some other family members on my wife's side are
beginning to wonder if our vegetarian diet may not have
been as "crazy" as they used to think .
I find the "personal choice" argument to be very similar to
what was discussed about 150 years ago in the USA regarding
slavery. Some thought it was a moral issue, some thought that
the writings in the "Christian Bible" showed that slavery was
morally correct. Some thought it was really no big deal because
after all, the slaves did not qualify as "people".
In modern USA, racism is politically incorrect, but
discrimination based on species is still accepted
by most people. But acceptance by most people does
not define moral correctness.
I am not going to try to justify moral grounds for eating
or not eating meat here, but I do suggest you consider that
in the fight over slavery in the USA, claims were made
that non-whites were actually a different species.
Similar claims were made about Orientals and Native
Americans in other parts of the USA in the late 1800's.
Bill Davis
wda...@dw3f.ess.harris.com
joshua geller
> Niki LeBoeuf (vort...@mintir.new-orleans.la.us) wrote:
> : In <2n21pl$l...@acad1.tp.ac.sg> waik...@acad1.tp.ac.sg (Seetoh Wai
> : Keong) writes:
> : >When you get food poisoning from eating wrongly, you don't stop eating.
> : >You simply become more careful next time you eat.
> : >Would you let a so-called "fake Rampa" stop you from searching?
> : Bingo. I don't turn into a skeptic/cynic overnight just because "Supreme
> : Master" Ching Hai has left a nasty taste in my mouth. I just keep looking
> With my best wishes. May you find the Truth.
the problems you seem to be having with regulars on this newsfroup
may very well be related to the fact that you seem to think that
there exists 'the Truth' (and in fact that you have found 'the
Truth') whereas many (most?) of the better respected people here
don't think that this is an easy concept to pin down, or a wise
one to talk about.
> With reference to "Holy Shepherd", it is known that the "Lamb" is
> called the "Calf of God" in some Indian traditions. It is not some
> kind of subservient relationship that is implied - rather, it is
> a relationship of care & love. When we care for someone, there
> is no implication of subservience.
be real. sheep are bred to slaughter.
josh
Matthew Spears
>>Before becoming a Dada he did eat meat. He said that he meditated several
>>years as a meat eater. When he decided to give up eating meat he was
>>almost immediately better able to reach the more advanced stages of
>>meditation with less time and effort.
> How true! I have had exactly such experiences. Stay away from meat,
>and your meditation improves. Stay away from alcohol, and your meditation
>improves. Stay away from sex, and your meditation improves. (Unless perhaps
>if you're such a great yogi that you can retain your seed.)
> Jeroen.
I disagree with the implications here. I myself am vegetarian,
non-alchoholic and chaste, though I have not taken any vows at all.
I've never felt that forcing myself to do something ever helped meditation.
Meditation is the antithesis of "forcing". If it's natural to quit
activities, make life simpler, that's wonderful. Meditation does get
"deeper" if the rest of your life follows some naturalpath. Any
thoughts of "you should do this in order to..." (IMHO) misses the point.
As someone before me implied, a more direct question is "how can
I live my life with compassion for all beings I affect." If you feel
being vegetarian or anything else helps you, try it for a while. I don't
feel it's a recipe for enlightenment.
--
He who knows others is wise.
He who knows himself is enlightened. spe...@sfu.ca
Luke C. Bairan
Yes, don't give up meat or alcohol or anything, let it give you up.
L.B.
Wayne Ferguson
C60...@mizzou1.missouri.edu (Random) writes:
>I also think that meat is just another of those things in life where we
>must make the decision between what is right and what we want to do. I
>think there is nothing more tasty than a rib eye grilled to perfection.
>I also know that is one more aspect of myself where must make a daily
>struggle to do what is right. With the possible exception of pregnant
>women, what good does it do a person to eat meat?
>
>Robert
Which, being interpreted, means you have to decide between what you really want
to do and that which you only sort of want to do. Not that I think that
distinction is trivial, mind you. But I sometimes think people would be better
off if they quit worrying so much about what is "right," and thought more about
what they really want to do--which (BTW) is NOT always an easy task. The
problem with trying to do what is "right" is that we often become slaves to an
abstraction that ultimately alienates us from (what some people refer to as)
our essential self. Better IMNSHO :) to vigorously pursue our vision of the
good (THE good is always MY good), realizing that our perspective is limited
and that our judgements are, therefore, provisional. Do you really want set it
forth as an eternal truth that eating meat is intrinsically wrong? Why not say
I find it offensive for the following reasons: . . ., rather than appealing to
what is "right." Aren't Buddhist's supposed to be beyond such moralizing--
beyond good and evil, as it were?
I just wanted to use your post as an excuse to rant and rave a little. Please
forgive me if I've misunderstood you. This is not intended as a flame, but
as another perspective which is seldom voiced, but which I think deserves to be
heard.
-wf
"<That man be delivered from revenge>, that is for me the bridge to the highest
hope, and a rainbow after long storms"
--Thus Spoke Zarathustra (<Portable Nietzsche> 211).
julian collier
Bill Davis <wda...@dw3f.ess.harris.com> wrote:
:in the fight over slavery in the USA, claims were made
:that non-whites were actually a different species.
:Similar claims were made about Orientals and Native
:Americans in other parts of the USA in the late 1800's.
so are you implying that humans and cows might actually be the same species?
--
can't keep my mind from the circling sky,
tongue-tied and twisted just an earth-bound misfit, i.
-pink floyd
Stavros Krysiak aka Anh Minh
>dumping this on Mongols alone. Men naturally rape women-that is why
>marriage was created-to sort out what woman belonged to what man so they
>would quit fighting over who got to go next. A man feels more secure
when> >he owns a little property.
That is why I am married Vietnamese style "without the paper" We are each
free to go. We are "unowned"
>Precisely, Nietshche worked this out quite nicely 100 years ago.
>Actually, he said bad does exist-it is evil which does not exist. The
>good is what we want and the bad is what we don't want.
Good is attaction and bad is aversion. Evil doesn't exit. I agree.
I've been able to figure this on my, so called "low level"(her term),
What amazes me is here is a Supreme Master, whose followers call "Buddha"
and "the living god", who hasn't gotten on this level.
Buddha was on all the levels. That's what made him Buddha.
Stavros Krysiak aka Anh Minh
white. There were no green things to be seen. It's a very tough
life for these people, yet they have been there in the cold for
thousands of years. I suppose I could go up there and get on a
soapbox and tell these carnivores that they are unnatural and
should eat veggies for survival. I can hear them laughing now.
"Live and let live" can have different interpretations.
If one is called by the vegetarian path he must follow it but
not as a dogmatic vegetarian. Some people must eat meat for
their path calls them to celebrate life in this way.
"Blessed are the non dogmatic vegetarians and carnivores."
Sandrocotus
In article <1994Apr7.092943.1@tntvax> jom (John Morton) writes:
|>In article <082319Z...@anon.penet.fi>, (Sandrocotus) writes:
|>> In article <1994Apr5.093904.1@tntvax> (John Morton) writes:
|>> |>
|>> |> Right on! My species worked for millions of years to learn how to
|>> |> digest meat. I'm not going to renounce that achievement in the name
|>> |> of some fad of only 25 years - or 2500 years - duration.
|>> |>
|>>
|>> rubbing together of certain kind of stones, and within a few
|>> minutes the secret of fire was discovered!! No millions of
|>> years were involved.
|>
|>Sandro -
|>
|> What? You mean we all just NATURALLY digested each
|> other from the very beginning? And the herbivores
|> are a late evolutionary limb of our great tree of life?
|>
|> Cool!
|>
|> John
|>
Uh, Jom-o, Your leap of insight and your use of the word
species appears to be more encompassing than what I
meant, or what biologists might mean.
What I meant was that "how to digest meat" for my particular
species means approximately, for the most part "put it on
fire until it metamorphs into something which you can indeed digest
and live to talk about". YMMV
Discovering how to tame fire did *not* take millions of years.
It happened in a flash. You may argue that it may have
happened millions of times and forgotten, only to
be learned again, until society was sufficiently
strong to be able to carry the discovery past generations.
Even so, adding out all these millions of 15-minute
"flashes", you still get, let us see, about 6 months.
6 months are a lot less than millions of years. IMHO,
that is.
/Sandrocotus
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to he...@anon.penet.fi.
Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized,
and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned.
Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to ad...@anon.penet.fi.
Bill Keyes
>Discovering how to tame fire did *not* take millions of years.
Hey, anyone remember that late 70's flick, "Quest for Fire"? With none
other than our fave movie starlette, Rae Dawn Chong!
Hmmm... now how to relate this to eastern philosophy? Somebunny help
me out here. (if we can do it with ferrets and gassing gophers, we
can damn well do it with QfF!!!!).
Bill. ("Nott-rah! Nott-rah!!!")
* Cry "Eek Eek," and let ******* Jrrrr-Lwsss *******
*** slip the Ferrets of War! ***** The Ferrotti from Hell *****
***** (with apologies to *** bke...@lamar.colostate.edu **
******* Wm. Shakespeare) * 14 feet of pure ferret fury. *
John Morton
> Uh, Jom-o, Your leap of insight and your use of the word species appears
> to be more encompassing than what I meant, or what biologists might mean.
> What I meant was that "how to digest meat" for my particular species
> means approximately, for the most part "put it on fire until it metamorphs
> into something which you can indeed digest and live to talk about". YMMV
> Discovering how to tame fire did *not* take millions of years. It happened
> in a flash. You may argue that it may have happened millions of times
> and forgotten, only to be learned again, until society was sufficiently
> strong to be able to carry the discovery past generations. Even so,
> adding out all these millions of 15-minute "flashes", you still get,
> let us see, about 6 months. 6 months are a lot less than millions of
> years. IMHO, that is.
Well, I'll defer to the biologists, too. What I meant originally about
it taking "million of years" was that I thought primates came from some
species that were almost exclusively herbivores, and that 50 million
years or so ago we all had to "relearn" how to digest the meat of other
animals. BUT FORGET ALL THAT! I like where the discussion is going
with the new posts. So let's follow along:
Sandro said:
> ...adding out all these millions of 15-minute "flashes", you still get,
> let us see, about...
Right on, Sandro. What is it that we get when we add up all the
15-minute "flashes" that all of us get all the time?
And then Wayne said:
>Perhaps the most interesting account of how human beings came to tame fire is
>found in Freud's <Civilzation and its Discontents>. It is found in a footnote
>in chapter three which I will quote in full--bein' as it ain't so awful long:
>
>"Psycho-analytic material, incomplete as it is and not susceptible to clear
>interpretation, nevertheless admits of a conjecture--a fantastic-sounding
>one--about the origin of this feat. It is as though primal man had the habit,
>when he came in contact with fire, of satisfying an infantile desire connected
>with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine. The legends that we
>possess leave no doubt about the originally phallic view taken of tongues of
>flame as they shoot upwards. Putting out fire by micturating--a theme to which
>modern giants, Gulliver in Lilliput and Rabelais' Gargantua, still hark
>back--was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual
>potency in a homosexual competition. The first person to renounce this desire
>and spare the fire was able to carry it off with him and subdue it to his own
>use. By damping down the fire of his own sexual excitation, he had tamed the
>natural force of fire. This great cultural conquest was thus the reward for
>his renunciation of instinct. Further, it is as though woman had been
>appointed guardian of the fire which was held captive on the domestic hearth,
>because her anatomy made it impossible for her to yield to the temptation of
>this desire. It is remarkable, too, how regularly analytic experience
>testifies to the connection between ambition, fire and urethral erotism."
>
>This explanation would certainly be consistent with the bahavior of the boys I
>grew up with. We never left a campfire without thoroughly soaking it--perhaps
>you've heard the expression, "It's time to piss on the fire and call
>the dogs"?
---
Excellent stuff. Make your lines a little shorter if you think people
are going to use 'em. (Please.) My whole library only has 44 books
in it, but one of them IS "Civilzation and its Discontents". My
favorite footnote in the book is where he quotes Heine:
"Mine is a most peaceful disposition. My wishes are: a humble
cottage with a thatched roof, but a good bed, good food, the
freshest milk and butter, flowers before my window, and a few
fine trees before my door; and if God wants to make my happiness
complete, he will grant me the joy of seeing some six or seven
of my enemies hanging from those trees..."
Freud quotes this in a footnote to the section where he trashes -
and spends an inordinate amount of time trashing - Jesus's powerful
admonition to "Love thine enemies". I disagree with Freud here,
but it's a long list.
And then Bill said:
In article <061310Z...@anon.penet.fi> an5...@anon.penet.fi writes:
>> Discovering how to tame fire did *not* take millions of years.
>
> Hey, anyone remember that late 70's flick, "Quest for Fire"? With none
> other than our fave movie starlette, Rae Dawn Chong!
> Hmmm... now how to relate this to eastern philosophy? Somebunny help
> me out here.
Well, we're all after that fire that keeps us warm and alive: The
fire that people enjoy gathering around. But it keeps going out.
So we build a little shrine for it, and keep the fire in the shrine.
But no matter how hard you protect it, or how attentive or mindful
you are to keep the fire going, sometimes you just plop down into
a puddle, and the fire goes out.
It's not the guy's fault that was carrying the fire. (Nor anybunny
else's fault.) He did his best, bun he didn't hare the warnings.
There's just no point in getting rabbit about this! And if you don't
cotton to this tail, at least you can appreciate its spirit.
Nobunnies perfect. Hare! Hare!
John
joshua geller
writes:
> I think the thing that most people, when speaking on this issue, forget
> to mention, is that vegetarianism is a *personal choice*. It is
> absolutely not the sort of thing that one person should be able to tell
> another to do or not to do. I am a vegetarian, but I have never tried to
> convince anyone else to become one. I do it, if you want my reason,
> because I *personally* can't stand the thought of eating an animal. Some
> people can. They can eat all the meat they want.
I respect this point of view. but what you don't seem to be getting is
that there are a lot of people who don't treat vegetarianism as a
personal choice, but rather as revealed truth.
this discussion also has nothing to do with magick, followup set
appropriately.
josh
Stavros Krysiak aka Anh Minh
and nine days, Shizuko, was swept away during a storm off the
coast of Maui. Her body was never recovered. For some time I
had the most awful visions of the sea creatures eating her body.
I had much difficulty with it.
I had a breakthrough, after I gave up my grasping. After that
I had this profound respect for life begetting life and for my
acenstors. It all clicked. From that time on the eating of
seafood has become a sacred act for me, for I may be eating a
fish, whose life has been sustained by my beloved Shizuko. She
still nourishes me.
Eating of meat can be as sacred as not eating of meat. The yahoo who think
that they have found the answer really haven't lookes who think that they found
the answer really havin't found the answer. There is no answer. What's the
question? I forgot.
Seetoh Wai Keong
: In article <Cnunz...@jabba.ess.harris.com>,
: Bill Davis <wda...@dw3f.ess.harris.com> wrote:
: :in the fight over slavery in the USA, claims were made
: :that non-whites were actually a different species.
: :Similar claims were made about Orientals and Native
: :Americans in other parts of the USA in the late 1800's.
: so are you implying that humans and cows might actually be the same species?
We don't need to restrict mercy/compassion/charity to the same species.
We don't need to restrict it to the same race.
We don't need to restrict it to the family.
We don't need to restrict it to ourselves.
We don't need to restrict it at all.
Seetoh.
Sari Ellen Stiles
> j...@tntvax.ntrs.com (John Morton) writes:
>
> "Gentlemen, sometimes a campfire is *just* a campfire." -- Freud. Sorta. =)
>
>> There's just no point in getting rabbit about this! And if you don't
>> cotton to this tail, at least you can appreciate its spirit.
>> Nobunnies perfect. Hare! Hare!
>
> Bill. ("A ferret smiley (backwards): <:3 ")
E:> <:3 (two ferrets) <:3 <:3 <:3 (ferret parade)
The Ferret Federation
bouncing our furry bodies
to the music of the spheres.
Elric the ferret-sage,
James Forgy
>From: bai...@polaris.nova.edu (Luke C. Bairan)
>Subject: Re: Q & A with Supreme Master Ching Hai
>Date: Tue, 5 Apr 1994 16:37:44 GMT
>> To state the obvious, all life needs life to sustain it. The
>question really is, How much suffering is required to support your
>life? That is where vegetarianism becomes a moral question. Carrots
>suffer much less than cows when they die.
Is suffering bad idiot! The Buddha states that all of life contains
suffering. What is your problem with that?
> If you really don't see the difference between eating a plant and
>eating an animal, then don't sweat it. You've got long way to go before
>food takes on moral implications.
Oh you're so advanced Bairan! This reader has a "long way to go" but you
are so close to enlightenment! Oh Bairan you are so holy, this other
reader may one day, after many births, reach your level.
You, and the Pompus clowns who have been posting about this "Supreme Master"
are just making fools out of yourselves. What does your ego about your
practice or your master have to do about meditation.
I had a hamburger yesterday and meditated, but of course, "I have a long
way to go", unlike you and your "Supreme Master"
Get a life,
Om Baby,
JF
Mr. Happy
Mr. Happy
>question really is, How much suffering is required to support your
>life? That is where vegetarianism becomes a moral question. Carrots
>suffer much less than cows when they die.
>eating an animal, then don't sweat it. You've got long way to go before
>food takes on moral implications.
There is a difference between eating a carrot and a cow.
One is a carrot.
And the other is a cow.
One is small, grows under the ground, is orange, and goes good in salad.
The other is big, lives in a barn, is black and white (usually), and goes
good in a bun with catsup.
I have never meditated/felt sorry for/etc for eating a carrot, nor a cow.
The fact is simple. The cow/carrot/whatever dies, or I do. I like me better.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
__ Mr. Happy
__/o \_
\____ \ mrh...@sage.cc.purdue.edu
/ \
__ //\ \
__/o \-//--\ \_/
\____ ___ \ | Q: what's the best way to accelerate a Macintosh?
|| \ |\ |
_|| _||_|| A: 9.8 m/(s*s)
"YOUR GOD IS DEAD, AND NO ONE CARES, IF THERE IS A HELL, I'LL SEE YOU THERE..."
Bill Keyes
>And then Wayne said:
>>Perhaps the most interesting account of how human beings came to tame fire is
>>found in Freud's <Civilzation and its Discontents>. It is found in a footnote
>>in chapter three which I will quote in full--bein' as it ain't so awful long:
I wonder sometimes if Freud was one of those guys who always dreamed sweaty
dreams, but never actually got laid?
>>This explanation would certainly be consistent with the bahavior of the boys I
>>grew up with. We never left a campfire without thoroughly soaking it--perhaps
>>you've heard the expression, "It's time to piss on the fire and call
>>the dogs"?
"Gentlemen, sometimes a campfire is *just* a campfire." -- Freud. Sorta. =)
> "Mine is a most peaceful disposition. My wishes are: a humble
> cottage with a thatched roof, but a good bed, good food, the
> freshest milk and butter, flowers before my window, and a few
> fine trees before my door; and if God wants to make my happiness
> complete, he will grant me the joy of seeing some six or seven
> of my enemies hanging from those trees..."
<wipes a stray tear> God, John, that was absolutely beautiful. Absolutely
beautiful. I'm gonna put that into my .plan. It sums up everything so
nicely.
>And then Bill said:
>> Hey, anyone remember that late 70's flick, "Quest for Fire"? With none
>> other than our fave movie starlette, Rae Dawn Chong!
>
> Well, we're all after that fire that keeps us warm and alive: The
> fire that people enjoy gathering around. But it keeps going out.
> So we build a little shrine for it, and keep the fire in the shrine.
> But no matter how hard you protect it, or how attentive or mindful
> you are to keep the fire going, sometimes you just plop down into
> a puddle, and the fire goes out.
That's quite good. I knew someone could tie that in. =)
> It's not the guy's fault that was carrying the fire. (Nor anybunny
> else's fault.) He did his best, bun he didn't hare the warnings.
> There's just no point in getting rabbit about this! And if you don't
> cotton to this tail, at least you can appreciate its spirit.
> Nobunnies perfect. Hare! Hare!
Oh sure sure, rub it in. Geez. Some people. =P
Bill. ("A ferret smiley (backwards): <:3 ")
* Cry "Eek Eek," and let ******* Jrrrr-Lwsss *******
E.J.Leoni-Smith
>> To state the obvious, all life needs life to sustain it. The
>>question really is, How much suffering is required to support your
>>life? That is where vegetarianism becomes a moral question. Carrots
>>suffer much less than cows when they die.
>> If you really don't see the difference between eating a plant and
>>eating an animal, then don't sweat it. You've got long way to go before
>>food takes on moral implications.
>
>
>There is a difference between eating a carrot and a cow.
>One is a carrot.
>And the other is a cow.
>One is small, grows under the ground, is orange, and goes good in salad.
>The other is big, lives in a barn, is black and white (usually), and goes
>good in a bun with catsup.
>
their suffering.
The real issue is, "How far is it valid to anthropomorphise other life
forms, to the extent that you imbue them with human (like) thoughts and
feelings".
Of course, Disney characters are embedded in the national American soul,
and so faced with conditioning like that, vegetarianism seems quite
logical.
It is odd though, that those who deal with living animals on a daily
basis, seem less concerned than the urban dwelling animal right (sic!)
Perhaps seeing foxes rip chickens to shreds, and be ripped to shreds
by dogs, and the wholesale damage to crops and plants that animals like
pigs, chickens and goats can cause, gives us country dwellers a slightly
less idealistic view of animals and vegetables in general.
The ONLY argument that makes ANY sense, is that abusing animals is
bad for those that do it: What the animal itself feels, if indeed we
could ever understand or experience its feelings, must always
remain an imponderable. My guess is that it feels a lot less about
almost everything than some people would have you believe, and that
what it DOES feel about, would be incomprehensible to most city-bred
factory-farmed brain-washed reared=to-no-good-purpose humans.
Perhaps the world population and food crisis could be solved by the
vegetarians of the world offering themselves as suitable candidates
for cannibalism. Two birds with one stone as it were.
Michael Wilson
writes:
>> If you really don't see the difference between eating a plant and
>>eating an animal, then don't sweat it. You've got long way to go before
>>food takes on moral implications.
>
>Oh you're so advanced Bairan! This reader has a "long way to go" but you
>are so close to enlightenment! Oh Bairan you are so holy, this other
>reader may one day, after many births, reach your level.
>
>
>
>You, and the Pompus clowns who have been posting about this "Supreme Master"
>are just making fools out of yourselves. What does your ego about your
>practice or your master have to do about meditation.
>
>I had a hamburger yesterday and meditated, but of course, "I have a long
>way to go", unlike you and your "Supreme Master"
>
>
>Get a life,
>
>Om Baby,
>
>JF
And how will your anger and your spiteful comments aid you on your path to
enlightenment?
Flames are wonderful for cooking the meat that you and I like to eat, but
there is no need to roast anyone here on the net. Unless you were planning on
eating him?
--JUBAL
.sig pending
Bill Keyes
>bke...@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Bill Keyes) wrote:
>>j...@tntvax.ntrs.com (John Morton) writes:
>
>>> "Mine is a most peaceful disposition. My wishes are: a humble
>>> cottage with a thatched roof, but a good bed, good food, the
>>> freshest milk and butter, flowers before my window, and a few
>>> fine trees before my door; and if God wants to make my happiness
>>> complete, he will grant me the joy of seeing some six or seven
>>> of my enemies hanging from those trees..."
>>
>><wipes a stray tear> God, John, that was absolutely beautiful. Absolutely
>>beautiful. I'm gonna put that into my .plan. It sums up everything so
>>nicely.
>
> the wrong they did me in their lifetime. One must, it is true,
> forgive one's enemies--but not before they have been hanged."
Thanks for the finishing touch on that quote. That really does round it off
so well. Time to update the .plan again... =)
Bill. ("Vengeance is a dish best served with a light a fruity wine.")
Jeff Skinner
_]julian collier (jcol...@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote:
_]: In article <Cnunz...@jabba.ess.harris.com>,
_]: Bill Davis <wda...@dw3f.ess.harris.com> wrote:
_]
_]: :in the fight over slavery in the USA, claims were made
_]: :that non-whites were actually a different species.
_]: :Similar claims were made about Orientals and Native
_]: :Americans in other parts of the USA in the late 1800's.
_]
_]: so are you implying that humans and cows might actually be the same species?
_]
_]We don't need to restrict mercy/compassion/charity to the same species.
_]We don't need to restrict it to the same race.
_]We don't need to restrict it to the family.
_]We don't need to restrict it to ourselves.
_]We don't need to restrict it at all.
_]
_]Seetoh.
Is it possible that moral or aesthetic pressure to express
compassion (as in "You must not be a very good/evolved person
if you do not visibly manifest compassion") is another restriction ?
My question is "Do we need to require mercy/compassion/charity
of our fellows, and if so, why ?"
J.S.
Tim Poston
: Don't preach to
: me, you are not my spirtual teacher!
Too fine a typo to touch with a comment.
,
"To pant refined gold, to geld the lily..."
___________________________________________________________________
Tim Poston Institute of Systems Science, Nat. Univ. of Singapore
sig = +--- (time is positive)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sandrocotus
In article <1994Apr10.161936.1@tntvax> j...@tntvax.ntrs.com (John Morton) writes:
[snip]
|>Sandro said:
|>> ...adding out all these millions of 15-minute "flashes", you still get,
|>> let us see, about...
|>
|> Right on, Sandro. What is it that we get when we add up all the
|> 15-minute "flashes" that all of us get all the time?
|>
Hmmm.... What do you get?
[anything from five years to life?]
Seetoh Wai Keong
: In article <Cnso...@draco.nova.edu> bai...@polaris.nova.edu (Luke C. Bairan) writes:
: >From: bai...@polaris.nova.edu (Luke C. Bairan)
: >Subject: Re: Q & A with Supreme Master Ching Hai
: >Date: Tue, 5 Apr 1994 16:37:44 GMT
: >> To state the obvious, all life needs life to sustain it. The
: >question really is, How much suffering is required to support your
: >life? That is where vegetarianism becomes a moral question. Carrots
: >suffer much less than cows when they die.
: Is suffering bad idiot! The Buddha states that all of life contains
: suffering. What is your problem with that?
If suffering is not bad, then why did Buddha seek release from suffering?
The four noble truths are about suffering and the path leading us out
of suffering.
: > If you really don't see the difference between eating a plant and
: >eating an animal, then don't sweat it. You've got long way to go before
: >food takes on moral implications.
: Oh you're so advanced Bairan! This reader has a "long way to go" but you
: are so close to enlightenment! Oh Bairan you are so holy, this other
: reader may one day, after many births, reach your level.
Sarcasm is no argument.
Seetoh.
WPrestonG
writes:
>My question is "Do we need to require mercy/compassion/charity
of our fellows, and if so, why ?"
Well, if I can have compassion for somebody else, maybe I can imagine that
someone would have compassion for me. Which I sometimes have difficulty
imagining. (My biggest problem is that most of the time I think I'm tough and
don't need compassion.
Compassion is first and foremost a matter of "being with" the suffering person
and suffering with him. The "problem-solving" approach to compassion (here,
let me pull this thorn out of your paw) is secondary. You can have compassion
for a person even if you can't solve his problem. I find myself often
thinking, "Well, there's nothing you can do about such-and-such, so I'm just
going to block it out." The person who is suffering needs to know that he is
not alone, even if there's nothing you can do to stop his suffering.
So acts of compassion are sacraments that remind us that we are not alone, and
remind the other that he or she is not alone.
Bill Keyes
>Well, if I can have compassion for somebody else, maybe I can imagine that
>someone would have compassion for me. Which I sometimes have difficulty
>imagining. (My biggest problem is that most of the time I think I'm tough and
>don't need compassion.
Have compassion for others. Hope for compassion for yourself. Hey, I
figure that what comes around goes around. If I'm nice to those around
me, I figure that that'll just put that much more niceness in the world
around me. And eventually, it'll come back to me.
So it's a greedy thing, too, I guess, but it's good for everyone concerned.
Give it a try. =)
Bill.