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Ahmaud Arbery killing verdicts soon
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Love
Nov 23, 2021, 4:29:47 AM11/23/21
to
The sky gods smiled and I was able to receive
CourtTV sufficiently today to watch defence
summations. Tomorrow the crown will present
its summation for 2 hours then the verdict
watch will begin. I think it possible that
jury will take days to sort this out, with
there being 3 defendants and a serious
question of whether they were acting legally
or not (both "citizen's arrest" and "self
defense" have been argued by defense
counsels).
My guess is that there will be a guilty
verdict of some kind of murder, but for how
many of the co-defendants is hard to say.
Neither self-defense nor citizen's arrest
are legally valid in this case. Citizen's
arrest is legal if you are apprehending a
perp for a crime that you have certain
knowledge of, immediately following the
crime. Defense did not make this case well
enough in my opinion, because the evidence
available doesn't support it. Self defense
is not an available defense if you provoked
a self-defense in your victim, which is
clearly what happened. Three men in
vehicles boxed the victim in and the gun
was brandished so that the victim would
understand it as a threat (presumably to
compel his compliance with whatever plans
the trio had for him).
Using guns as threats for precluding
certain problems that are thought to be
possible, is a very bad practice even when
the police do it. Making a threat of the
use of deadly force to gain compliance is
what holdup bandits and kidnappers do,
not law-respecting citizens.
--
Love
I'm too lazy to figure out my pronouns
so I'm leaving them up to you.
CourtTV sufficiently today to watch defence
summations. Tomorrow the crown will present
its summation for 2 hours then the verdict
watch will begin. I think it possible that
jury will take days to sort this out, with
there being 3 defendants and a serious
question of whether they were acting legally
or not (both "citizen's arrest" and "self
defense" have been argued by defense
counsels).
My guess is that there will be a guilty
verdict of some kind of murder, but for how
many of the co-defendants is hard to say.
Neither self-defense nor citizen's arrest
are legally valid in this case. Citizen's
arrest is legal if you are apprehending a
perp for a crime that you have certain
knowledge of, immediately following the
crime. Defense did not make this case well
enough in my opinion, because the evidence
available doesn't support it. Self defense
is not an available defense if you provoked
a self-defense in your victim, which is
clearly what happened. Three men in
vehicles boxed the victim in and the gun
was brandished so that the victim would
understand it as a threat (presumably to
compel his compliance with whatever plans
the trio had for him).
Using guns as threats for precluding
certain problems that are thought to be
possible, is a very bad practice even when
the police do it. Making a threat of the
use of deadly force to gain compliance is
what holdup bandits and kidnappers do,
not law-respecting citizens.
--
Love
I'm too lazy to figure out my pronouns
so I'm leaving them up to you.
Ned
Nov 23, 2021, 11:10:45 AM11/23/21
to
been said in two years.
Which is why it will be thoroughly ignored.
Ned
Love
Nov 24, 2021, 1:14:18 AM11/24/21
to
Love
Nov 24, 2021, 1:39:05 AM11/24/21
to
In article <20211123-0...@Love.news.eternal-september.org>,
n...@spam.invalid says...
The prosecution's final summary was strong.
I am now predicting that at least two
accused will be found guilty of murder in
some way. The jury is nearly all white and
all women. I suspect that the defense
lawyers let this mix happen because they
thought that women would be more likely to
feel grateful that someone was willing to
interdict interlopers in their
neighbourhoods, because they are more
fearful of them than male jurors might be.
If this is the case, it could easily
backfire, because the evidence showed that
what Mr. Arbery chiefly did to "arouse
suspicions" was stand around inside an
unoccupied house under construction like
some lost puppy. If one stereotype about
women may be true, so may another...
n...@spam.invalid says...
I am now predicting that at least two
accused will be found guilty of murder in
some way. The jury is nearly all white and
all women. I suspect that the defense
lawyers let this mix happen because they
thought that women would be more likely to
feel grateful that someone was willing to
interdict interlopers in their
neighbourhoods, because they are more
fearful of them than male jurors might be.
If this is the case, it could easily
backfire, because the evidence showed that
what Mr. Arbery chiefly did to "arouse
suspicions" was stand around inside an
unoccupied house under construction like
some lost puppy. If one stereotype about
women may be true, so may another...
Noah Sombrero
Nov 24, 2021, 9:36:02 AM11/24/21
to
Maybe. In georgia?
--
Noah Sombrero
Noah Sombrero
Nov 24, 2021, 2:08:52 PM11/24/21
to
--
Noah Sombrero
Ned
Nov 24, 2021, 3:47:01 PM11/24/21
to
Ned
Wilson
Nov 24, 2021, 4:32:36 PM11/24/21
to
“Kyle Rittenhouse murdered three people.”
Kyle Rittenhouse found not guilty by reason of self defense.
"Oh well he would have been found guilty if he was black.”
Andrew Coffee IV found not guilty by reason of self defense.
“Oh well these three white men killed a black man and they claimed self
defense, they’ll be found not guilty.”
They are found guilty of murder.
Noah Sombrero
Nov 24, 2021, 4:41:54 PM11/24/21
to
media, a person can still get surprised.
It is probably too early to tell, but my suspicion is that something
is changing in racial attitudes. The media will be the last to know.
--
Noah Sombrero
Wilson
Nov 24, 2021, 4:45:53 PM11/24/21
to
More at 11.
Noah Sombrero
Nov 24, 2021, 5:10:39 PM11/24/21
to
against a guy who put hid knee on george's neck. First time ever that
has happened. And yup, he got convicted.
And a conviction of white guys shooting a black unarmed man in
georgia. It might have happened sometime in the past. Once. Or
Twice. The past is a big place. However, I am doubful. And very
aware of how it was common in the south to lynch a black man for no
good reason at all. Up to about 90 years ago. My first wife was from
georgia. Some of her words do still ring in my ears.
Something. Is. Different.
--
Noah Sombrero
liaM
Nov 24, 2021, 8:24:39 PM11/24/21
to
On 11/24/2021 11:10 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>
> Something. Is. Different.
>
But you don't know what, do you, Mr. Jones..
>
> Something. Is. Different.
>
But you don't know what, do you, Mr. Jones..
Noah Sombrero
Nov 24, 2021, 8:35:22 PM11/24/21
to
to get it.
Like in oj's civil trial. The pundits suggeted that the jury got it
about the foot prints outside her window.
Or like people sorta got it suddenly about same sex marriage. Or even
in some places about marijuana and right to die.
People sorta go, yeh, that makes sense. What is all this fuss about
anyway?
--
Noah Sombrero
Noah Sombrero
Nov 24, 2021, 8:45:24 PM11/24/21
to
On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:35:19 -0500, Noah Sombrero <hibi...@fea.st>
wrote:
Marry whoever you want, puff the weed if you like, and if you are
terminally suffering, who are we to insist you stick around?
And attitudes around blacks have been a little insane in the past few
hundred years, don't you think?
--
Noah Sombrero
wrote:
terminally suffering, who are we to insist you stick around?
And attitudes around blacks have been a little insane in the past few
hundred years, don't you think?
--
Noah Sombrero
Noah Sombrero
Nov 24, 2021, 8:52:20 PM11/24/21
to
On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:45:21 -0500, Noah Sombrero <hibi...@fea.st>
I mean one of the lawyers at that trial thought she needed to mention
that he didn't have any socks on to cover his long dirty toenails.
Ohhhh, now we get it.
--
Noah Sombrero
that he didn't have any socks on to cover his long dirty toenails.
Ohhhh, now we get it.
--
Noah Sombrero
Love
Nov 26, 2021, 12:30:55 AM11/26/21
to
In article <snmbqf$qvi$1...@dont-email.me>, Wil...@nowhere.net says...
11:00 BREAKING NEWS
Some Americans 70 years old and older were surprised
when a nearly all-white Georgia jury quickly convicted
three white men for murdering a young black man during
an act of vigilante-style neighbourhood law enforcement
gone wrong. "I guess our views are a little bit stuck
in the past. We tend to see everything through 1960s
sunglasses" said none of the septuagenarians asked to
comment, despite actually still rockin' their retro
eyewear.
Some Americans 70 years old and older were surprised
when a nearly all-white Georgia jury quickly convicted
three white men for murdering a young black man during
an act of vigilante-style neighbourhood law enforcement
gone wrong. "I guess our views are a little bit stuck
in the past. We tend to see everything through 1960s
sunglasses" said none of the septuagenarians asked to
comment, despite actually still rockin' their retro
eyewear.
Noah Sombrero
Nov 26, 2021, 9:06:55 AM11/26/21
to
must feel good.
This, most people aren't racist, business is a way to dismiss blm and
other reactions to racist murders by police. Not that "if you think
you aren't racist, you are racist", isn't over the top. Interesting
how both sides to a conflict will polarize at equally over the top
ends of the spectrum. Every war is a propaganda war.
I did propose a change of attitude in things racist. But I think it
is quite nascent. It needs lots of sun and careful watering.
I will believe in it when it becomes possible to get such convictions
even when there is no video. It can't be true that there will often
be somebody standing around with a cell phone who happens to swiftly
record what happens. Especially when it is cops killing an unarmed
black man.
--
Noah Sombrero
Wilson
Nov 26, 2021, 9:36:33 AM11/26/21
to
On 11/26/2021 9:06 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 00:30:53 -0500, Love <n...@spam.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <snmbqf$qvi$1...@dont-email.me>, Wil...@nowhere.net says...
>>>
> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 00:30:53 -0500, Love <n...@spam.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <snmbqf$qvi$1...@dont-email.me>, Wil...@nowhere.net says...
>>>
to Qualified Immunity:
___
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/publications/insights-on-law-and-society/volume-21/issue-1/qualified-immunity/
Unfortunately, most members of law enforcement operate today in a
culture of near-zero accountability. Police officers rarely face
meaningful consequences for their misconduct, and the public’s accurate
perception of this fact has contributed to what can best be described as
a crisis of confidence in our nation’s law enforcement.
Accountability has therefore become a top priority for anyone interested
in criminal justice reform.
And while this culture of near-zero accountability has many causes, by
far the most significant is qualified immunity. Qualified immunity is a
judicial doctrine created by the Supreme Court that shields state actors
from liability for their misconduct, even when they break the law. Under
this doctrine, government agents—including but not limited to police
officers—can never be sued for violating someone’s civil rights, unless
they violated “clearly established law.”
___
Here are some examples of how qualified immunity prevented police errors
from being prosecuted or even from civil remedy:
https://mises.org/wire/how-qualified-immunity-became-absolute-immunity-police-officers
Noah Sombrero
Nov 26, 2021, 10:16:43 AM11/26/21
to
conviction of george's killer does look like a little bit of change.
And I think blm has had something to do with that. My unstuck view
was that protest doesn't work any more. Of course it still can if it
is widespread enough and lasts long enough. There are economic
reasons why people find it hard to do that lately.
I would be more impressed if you could say, blm is not the enemy. Can
you do that?
>Accountability has therefore become a top priority for anyone interested
>in criminal justice reform.
>
>And while this culture of near-zero accountability has many causes, by
>far the most significant is qualified immunity. Qualified immunity is a
>judicial doctrine created by the Supreme Court that shields state actors
>from liability for their misconduct, even when they break the law. Under
>this doctrine, government agents—including but not limited to police
>officers—can never be sued for violating someone’s civil rights, unless
>they violated “clearly established law.”
>___
>
>Here are some examples of how qualified immunity prevented police errors
>from being prosecuted or even from civil remedy:
>
>https://mises.org/wire/how-qualified-immunity-became-absolute-immunity-police-officers
Noah Sombrero
Love
Nov 26, 2021, 11:23:21 AM11/26/21
to
In article <snqrdf$i4b$1...@dont-email.me>, Wil...@nowhere.net says...
Approved.
BLM has had little to no influence on the changes
in policing we've seen here. Video has been the main
propellant. A disoriented immigrant Robert Dziekanski
got upset then tased to death by police for the crime
of brandishing a stapler in the Vancouver airport, and
much of the incident was caught on security video.
That prompted some speedup in the process, then the
killing of Sammy Yatim, a confused kid isolated on a
Toronto streetcar and surrounded by police while he
brandished a pocket knife and didn't respond to verbal
commands quickly enough for one officer, sped it up
some more. Black guys who were killed were all under
mental duress too, but it was hard to connect them to
racism as such, and BLM was not yet a thing. Black
activism did succeed in doing away with "profiling"
to some degree, but many black officers themselves
don't agree that the practice was racist, or even
ineffective, as was argued. Nevertheless, other ways
to spend police time were found. What people remember
about BLM here is that it forcibly halted the Pride
parade and demanded that police be excluded from
Pride.
Demilitarisation of policing, and changing its
identity from "police force" to "police services",
does actually make it plainer that the function is
not primarily about exercising physical power
against "bad guys". That helps, as do many other
things. At some point the focus on racism as a
causative factor becomes a distraction, but I think
in the US at least, _something_ needed to bring
police practices to the fore, and though I hear that
police still kill more whites than blacks overall,
I am not seeing _those_ videos entering the public
consciousness, so maybe BLM deserves some credit
for a change that will benefit all in the long run,
whatever we think of the merit of the "racism!"
narrative.
BLM has had little to no influence on the changes
in policing we've seen here. Video has been the main
propellant. A disoriented immigrant Robert Dziekanski
got upset then tased to death by police for the crime
of brandishing a stapler in the Vancouver airport, and
much of the incident was caught on security video.
That prompted some speedup in the process, then the
killing of Sammy Yatim, a confused kid isolated on a
Toronto streetcar and surrounded by police while he
brandished a pocket knife and didn't respond to verbal
commands quickly enough for one officer, sped it up
some more. Black guys who were killed were all under
mental duress too, but it was hard to connect them to
racism as such, and BLM was not yet a thing. Black
activism did succeed in doing away with "profiling"
to some degree, but many black officers themselves
don't agree that the practice was racist, or even
ineffective, as was argued. Nevertheless, other ways
to spend police time were found. What people remember
about BLM here is that it forcibly halted the Pride
parade and demanded that police be excluded from
Pride.
Demilitarisation of policing, and changing its
identity from "police force" to "police services",
does actually make it plainer that the function is
not primarily about exercising physical power
against "bad guys". That helps, as do many other
things. At some point the focus on racism as a
causative factor becomes a distraction, but I think
in the US at least, _something_ needed to bring
police practices to the fore, and though I hear that
police still kill more whites than blacks overall,
I am not seeing _those_ videos entering the public
consciousness, so maybe BLM deserves some credit
for a change that will benefit all in the long run,
whatever we think of the merit of the "racism!"
narrative.
Noah Sombrero
Nov 26, 2021, 11:29:10 AM11/26/21
to
>Demilitarisation of policing, and changing its
>identity from "police force" to "police services",
>does actually make it plainer that the function is
>not primarily about exercising physical power
>against "bad guys". That helps, as do many other
>things. At some point the focus on racism as a
>causative factor becomes a distraction, but I think
>in the US at least, _something_ needed to bring
>police practices to the fore, and though I hear that
>police still kill more whites than blacks overall,
>I am not seeing _those_ videos entering the public
>consciousness, so maybe BLM deserves some credit
>for a change that will benefit all in the long run,
>whatever we think of the merit of the "racism!"
>narrative.
--
Wilson
Nov 26, 2021, 12:09:27 PM11/26/21
to
On 11/26/2021 10:16 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:36:31 -0500, Wilson <Wil...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>> This goes beyond the idea of racism, but maybe what you want is an end
>> to Qualified Immunity:
>> ___
>>
>> https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/publications/insights-on-law-and-society/volume-21/issue-1/qualified-immunity/
>>
>> Unfortunately, most members of law enforcement operate today in a
>> culture of near-zero accountability. Police officers rarely face
>> meaningful consequences for their misconduct, and the public’s accurate
>> perception of this fact has contributed to what can best be described as
>> a crisis of confidence in our nation’s law enforcement.
>
> Thanks wilson. This looks like something I can agree with. The
> conviction of george's killer does look like a little bit of change.
> And I think blm has had something to do with that. My unstuck view
> was that protest doesn't work any more. Of course it still can if it
> is widespread enough and lasts long enough. There are economic
> reasons why people find it hard to do that lately.
>
> I would be more impressed if you could say, blm is not the enemy. Can
> you do that?
I'm not here to impress you.
> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:36:31 -0500, Wilson <Wil...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>> This goes beyond the idea of racism, but maybe what you want is an end
>> to Qualified Immunity:
>> ___
>>
>> https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/publications/insights-on-law-and-society/volume-21/issue-1/qualified-immunity/
>>
>> Unfortunately, most members of law enforcement operate today in a
>> culture of near-zero accountability. Police officers rarely face
>> meaningful consequences for their misconduct, and the public’s accurate
>> perception of this fact has contributed to what can best be described as
>> a crisis of confidence in our nation’s law enforcement.
>
> Thanks wilson. This looks like something I can agree with. The
> conviction of george's killer does look like a little bit of change.
> And I think blm has had something to do with that. My unstuck view
> was that protest doesn't work any more. Of course it still can if it
> is widespread enough and lasts long enough. There are economic
> reasons why people find it hard to do that lately.
>
> I would be more impressed if you could say, blm is not the enemy. Can
> you do that?
BLM as an organization was founded by self-described Marxists. That is
a fact. Marxism is an authoritarian and anti-human ideology with which
I will never choose to align myself.
For any person who values all life as I do, the idea that we should
respect the lives of people who happen to be black goes without saying.
And for a person who respects all life, the idea that any particular
race of human being should get special rights not afforded to the rest
of humanity is abhorrent.
Make of all of that what you wish.
Noah Sombrero
Nov 26, 2021, 12:13:34 PM11/26/21
to
On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 12:09:25 -0500, Wilson <Wil...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>On 11/26/2021 10:16 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:36:31 -0500, Wilson <Wil...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>
>>> This goes beyond the idea of racism, but maybe what you want is an end
>>> to Qualified Immunity:
>>> ___
>>>
>>> https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/publications/insights-on-law-and-society/volume-21/issue-1/qualified-immunity/
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, most members of law enforcement operate today in a
>>> culture of near-zero accountability. Police officers rarely face
>>> meaningful consequences for their misconduct, and the public’s accurate
>>> perception of this fact has contributed to what can best be described as
>>> a crisis of confidence in our nation’s law enforcement.
>>
>> Thanks wilson. This looks like something I can agree with. The
>> conviction of george's killer does look like a little bit of change.
>> And I think blm has had something to do with that. My unstuck view
>> was that protest doesn't work any more. Of course it still can if it
>> is widespread enough and lasts long enough. There are economic
>> reasons why people find it hard to do that lately.
>>
>> I would be more impressed if you could say, blm is not the enemy. Can
>> you do that?
>
>I'm not here to impress you.
>
>BLM as an organization was founded by self-described Marxists. That is
>a fact. Marxism is an authoritarian and anti-human ideology with which
>I will never choose to align myself.
Could be. That doesn't make blm marxist.
>On 11/26/2021 10:16 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:36:31 -0500, Wilson <Wil...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>
>>> This goes beyond the idea of racism, but maybe what you want is an end
>>> to Qualified Immunity:
>>> ___
>>>
>>> https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/publications/insights-on-law-and-society/volume-21/issue-1/qualified-immunity/
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, most members of law enforcement operate today in a
>>> culture of near-zero accountability. Police officers rarely face
>>> meaningful consequences for their misconduct, and the public’s accurate
>>> perception of this fact has contributed to what can best be described as
>>> a crisis of confidence in our nation’s law enforcement.
>>
>> Thanks wilson. This looks like something I can agree with. The
>> conviction of george's killer does look like a little bit of change.
>> And I think blm has had something to do with that. My unstuck view
>> was that protest doesn't work any more. Of course it still can if it
>> is widespread enough and lasts long enough. There are economic
>> reasons why people find it hard to do that lately.
>>
>> I would be more impressed if you could say, blm is not the enemy. Can
>> you do that?
>
>I'm not here to impress you.
>
>BLM as an organization was founded by self-described Marxists. That is
>a fact. Marxism is an authoritarian and anti-human ideology with which
>I will never choose to align myself.
>For any person who values all life as I do, the idea that we should
>respect the lives of people who happen to be black goes without saying.
>
>And for a person who respects all life, the idea that any particular
>race of human being should get special rights not afforded to the rest
>of humanity is abhorrent.
>
>Make of all of that what you wish.
asking to not get killed.
--
Noah Sombrero
Wilson
Nov 26, 2021, 12:31:02 PM11/26/21
to
On 11/26/2021 10:16 AM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>
>
> I would be more impressed if you could say, blm is not the enemy. Can
> you do that?
BLM, the Democrats, and the race grifters want to end racism the same
> you do that?
way Pfizer wants to end coronvirus.
Noah Sombrero
Nov 26, 2021, 1:07:06 PM11/26/21
to
--
Noah Sombrero
Love
Nov 30, 2021, 1:39:10 AM11/30/21
to
In article <snr4c5$rbg$2...@dont-email.me>, Wil...@nowhere.net says...
Genetic fallacy alert!
>For any person who values all life as I do, the idea that we should
>respect the lives of people who happen to be black goes without saying.
I value some lives differently than others,
I will admit. I value human life for lots
of reasons but the taste of the meat is not
among them. Yet.
>And for a person who respects all life, the idea that any particular
>race of human being should get special rights not afforded to the rest
>of humanity is abhorrent.
Simple solution: define "human" to exclude
inferiors and defectives. No two human
genomes are identical anyway, and any
taxonomic categorisation is dependent on
some arbitrary definitions of where there
has been sufficient mutation to warrant a
new category.
(Spammers are first on my list of who to
remove from the category "human".)
>Make of all of that what you wish.
No need to tell me to do something that I've
already done!
>For any person who values all life as I do, the idea that we should
>respect the lives of people who happen to be black goes without saying.
I will admit. I value human life for lots
of reasons but the taste of the meat is not
among them. Yet.
>And for a person who respects all life, the idea that any particular
>race of human being should get special rights not afforded to the rest
>of humanity is abhorrent.
inferiors and defectives. No two human
genomes are identical anyway, and any
taxonomic categorisation is dependent on
some arbitrary definitions of where there
has been sufficient mutation to warrant a
new category.
(Spammers are first on my list of who to
remove from the category "human".)
>Make of all of that what you wish.
already done!
Wilson
Nov 30, 2021, 12:54:08 PM11/30/21
to
On 11/30/2021 1:39 AM, Love wrote:
> In article <snr4c5$rbg$2...@dont-email.me>, Wil...@nowhere.net says...
> In article <snr4c5$rbg$2...@dont-email.me>, Wil...@nowhere.net says...
>> BLM as an organization was founded by self-described Marxists. That is
>> a fact. Marxism is an authoritarian and anti-human ideology with which
>> I will never choose to align myself.
>
> Genetic fallacy alert >
>> a fact. Marxism is an authoritarian and anti-human ideology with which
>> I will never choose to align myself.
>
> Genetic fallacy alert >
>> For any person who values all life as I do, the idea that we should
>> respect the lives of people who happen to be black goes without saying.
>
> I value some lives differently than others,
> I will admit. I value human life for lots
> of reasons but the taste of the meat is not
> among them. Yet.
Good to know!
>> respect the lives of people who happen to be black goes without saying.
>
> I value some lives differently than others,
> I will admit. I value human life for lots
> of reasons but the taste of the meat is not
> among them. Yet.
If that changes be sure to mention it, in case I might wind up on the
menu.
Sanford Manley
Nov 30, 2021, 3:35:37 PM11/30/21
to
He knows where I live. "Stranger in a Strange Land"
made it sound wonderful! A tribute to your friend or
loved one.
--
Sanford M. Manley
"Trying to be right all the time
is a very subtle way of being wrong."
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