Largest Fast Food Strike in History Happening in the US

[awaken21]

Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?

https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/

or

http://bit.ly/10GuaVT

"Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food restaurants across five US cities – New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St Louise, Chicago – have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.
Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage ($7.40) to a living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union recognition and the right to organise in the workplace.
The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in annual sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation. Companies such as McDonald’s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable in the world, so it is high time that they started paying the wealth creators (the workers) a fair wage."

[Kitty P]

"awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...

---

It's time.

[liaM]

Le 5/19/2013 10:14 PM, Kitty P a �crit :

> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
>
> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>
> or
>
> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>
> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food

> restaurants across five US cities � New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St Louise,
> Chicago � have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.

> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage ($7.40) to a
> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union recognition and
> the right to organise in the workplace.
> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in annual
> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation. Companies such as

> McDonald�s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable in the

> world, so it is high time that they started paying the wealth creators (the
> workers) a fair wage."
>
> ---
>
> It's time.
>
>

I'm curious to hear Wilson's opinion on this event..

[awaken21]

Seems to me it's just a baby step. But in the exact right direction. You never know, the hurricane announces itself with the slightest breeze, etc. At the very least it's a sign that the hardest working class is starting to get a clue.

[Kitty P]

"awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:6908d1fa-5bfa-4ee6...@googlegroups.com...

----

I believe it is an innitial breeze too. If corporate incomes continue to
increase and the stock market stay at high levels, while minimum wage stays
the same, it will start to gust up during the midterm elections. It's like
watching a perfect storm beginning to form.

[noname]

On 05/19/2013 02:14 PM, Kitty P wrote:
> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
>
> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>
> or
>
> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>
> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food

> restaurants across five US cities � New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St Louise,
> Chicago � have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.

> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage ($7.40) to a
> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union recognition and
> the right to organise in the workplace.
> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in annual
> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation. Companies such as

> McDonald�s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable in the

> world, so it is high time that they started paying the wealth creators (the
> workers) a fair wage."
>
> ---
>
> It's time.
>
>

The minimum wage thing is messed up. A minimum "living wage" would be
somewhere around $15. But high-school kids can do the job and they're
living at home and can work for $8 or whatever an hour and feel like
they're making good money. Then of course if wages go up, prices will
also go up because profit won't be allowed to slip.

Then there's the whole issue of sit-down restaurants. They pay their
employees shit, and expect the customer to make it up in the form of
"tips". It's total bullshit, most times the service deserves the tip
"get a real job because you suck at this".

The idea of money as abstracted barter is stupid, money isn't needed
between husbands and wives, it isn't needed between friends; money is
needed for dealing with strangers and assholes who you wouldn't
otherwise give the time of day.

[noname]

On 05/19/2013 07:10 PM, awaken21 wrote:
> On Sunday, May 19, 2013 4:14:34 PM UTC-4, Kitty P wrote:
>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
>>
>>
>>
>> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>>
>>
>>
>> or
>>
>>
>>
>> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>>
>>
>>
>> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food
>>

>> restaurants across five US cities � New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St Louise,
>>
>> Chicago � have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.

>>
>> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage ($7.40) to a
>>
>> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union recognition and
>>
>> the right to organise in the workplace.
>>
>> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in annual
>>
>> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation. Companies such as
>>

>> McDonald�s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable in the

>>
>> world, so it is high time that they started paying the wealth creators (the
>>
>> workers) a fair wage."
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>>
>>
>> It's time.
>
> Seems to me it's just a baby step. But in the exact right direction. You never know, the hurricane announces itself with the slightest breeze, etc. At the very least it's a sign that the hardest working class is starting to get a clue.
>

Doesn't matter how many clues they have, they've known the situation has
sucked since forever and there's not much they can do about it. Go out
on strike and you're giving your job to some high-school kid. If the
fast-food joints increase wages, they'll jack their prices through the
roof because their investors will not permit a decrease in profit.

I think when the change comes it won't be a hurricane, it'll be an
earthquake, all at once, pick up the pieces. As the guy said in the old
movie, "You're not hungry enough yet." Watch out for the gray
revolution... young people can get a job, of some kind, and suffer
through it; old people can't get a job, they can just get mad, and they
have little to lose. When you start reading in the news about mobs of
old people with pitchforks and torches, it'll be time to hunker down.

Talk is cheap, talk has always been cheap, you can preach your ass off
and the natives will smile and nod and cook your ass for dinner.

[noname]

On 05/19/2013 08:57 PM, Kitty P wrote:
> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6908d1fa-5bfa-4ee6...@googlegroups.com...
> On Sunday, May 19, 2013 4:14:34 PM UTC-4, Kitty P wrote:
>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
>>
>>
>>
>> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>>
>>
>>
>> or
>>
>>
>>
>> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>>
>>
>>
>> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food
>>

>> restaurants across five US cities � New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St
>> Louise,
>>
>> Chicago � have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.

>>
>> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage ($7.40) to
>> a
>>
>> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union recognition
>> and
>>
>> the right to organise in the workplace.
>>
>> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in annual
>>
>> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation. Companies such
>> as
>>

>> McDonald�s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable in the

>>
>> world, so it is high time that they started paying the wealth creators
>> (the
>>
>> workers) a fair wage."
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>>
>>
>> It's time.
>
> Seems to me it's just a baby step. But in the exact right direction. You
> never know, the hurricane announces itself with the slightest breeze, etc.
> At the very least it's a sign that the hardest working class is starting to
> get a clue.
> ----
>
> I believe it is an innitial breeze too. If corporate incomes continue to
> increase and the stock market stay at high levels, while minimum wage stays
> the same, it will start to gust up during the midterm elections. It's like
> watching a perfect storm beginning to form.
>
>

Watch the stock market, I'm thinking a crash is in order; that whole
game is manipulated by funds, it won't last forever.

[awaken21]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 7:14:12 AM UTC-4, noname wrote:

>
> Doesn't matter how many clues they have, they've known the situation has
>
> sucked since forever and there's not much they can do about it. Go out
>
> on strike and you're giving your job to some high-school kid.

Is that why corporations go out of their way to crush an organized work force, because it's so ineffective?

You are clueless and not in the fun ditzy way.

[liaM]

Le 5/20/2013 12:50 PM, noname a �crit :

> money is needed for dealing with strangers and assholes who you wouldn't
> otherwise give the time of day.

That's why obamacare and medicare are such powerful vote-getters. The
Republicans don't get it: people become millionaires when medicare
kicks in.

[liaM]

Le 5/20/2013 2:05 PM, awaken21 a �crit :

ditzy rhymes with itsy bitsy. is that a coincidence?

Do you want to take from Noname his WaltWhitmanesque cannonball volleys
and offer him itsy bitsy ditzy pellets "chicken shit" pellets of sense?

[Kitty P]

"noname" <nom...@nomail.invalid> wrote in message
news:knd0ea$st3$2...@dont-email.me...

> On 05/19/2013 08:57 PM, Kitty P wrote:
>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:6908d1fa-5bfa-4ee6...@googlegroups.com...
>> On Sunday, May 19, 2013 4:14:34 PM UTC-4, Kitty P wrote:
>>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food
>>>

>>> restaurants across five US cities � New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St
>>> Louise,
>>>
>>> Chicago � have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.

>>>
>>> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage ($7.40)
>>> to
>>> a
>>>
>>> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union recognition
>>> and
>>>
>>> the right to organise in the workplace.
>>>
>>> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in
>>> annual
>>>
>>> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation. Companies such
>>> as
>>>

>>> McDonald�s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable in the

>>>
>>> world, so it is high time that they started paying the wealth creators
>>> (the
>>>
>>> workers) a fair wage."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's time.
>>
>> Seems to me it's just a baby step. But in the exact right direction. You
>> never know, the hurricane announces itself with the slightest breeze,
>> etc.
>> At the very least it's a sign that the hardest working class is starting
>> to
>> get a clue.
>> ----
>>
>> I believe it is an innitial breeze too. If corporate incomes continue to
>> increase and the stock market stay at high levels, while minimum wage
>> stays
>> the same, it will start to gust up during the midterm elections. It's
>> like
>> watching a perfect storm beginning to form.
>>
>>
>
> Watch the stock market, I'm thinking a crash is in order; that whole game
> is manipulated by funds, it won't last forever.

Again I agree. It's like this wonderful game of pull the rug by those
manipulating the market. But either way it will have an eventual effect on
the average citizen.

[Kitty P]

"noname" <nom...@nomail.invalid> wrote in message

news:kncutu$lam$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 05/19/2013 02:14 PM, Kitty P wrote:
>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
>> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
>>
>> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>>
>> or
>>
>> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>>
>> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food

>> restaurants across five US cities � New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St
>> Louise,
>> Chicago � have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.

>> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage ($7.40) to
>> a
>> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union recognition
>> and
>> the right to organise in the workplace.
>> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in annual
>> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation. Companies such
>> as

>> McDonald�s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable in the

>> world, so it is high time that they started paying the wealth creators
>> (the
>> workers) a fair wage."
>>
>> ---
>>
>> It's time.
>>
>>
>
> The minimum wage thing is messed up. A minimum "living wage" would be
> somewhere around $15. But high-school kids can do the job and they're
> living at home and can work for $8 or whatever an hour and feel like
> they're making good money. Then of course if wages go up, prices will
> also go up because profit won't be allowed to slip.
>
> Then there's the whole issue of sit-down restaurants. They pay their
> employees shit, and expect the customer to make it up in the form of
> "tips". It's total bullshit, most times the service deserves the tip "get
> a real job because you suck at this".
>
> The idea of money as abstracted barter is stupid, money isn't needed
> between husbands and wives, it isn't needed between friends; money is
> needed for dealing with strangers and assholes who you wouldn't otherwise
> give the time of day.

The underlying issue is that middle class type jobs have been eliminated
over a series of years. It started just about the time someone coined the
idea that we are now in the 'information' age. Anyone who has ever taken an
economic class knew what was going to happen next. Some got rich out of
knowing - the rest of us evidently just closed our eyes.

I have always wanted to see if regional barter cards would ever work here.
Sort of like credit cards with points earned when doing something for
someone else. I belong to a barter group that does it all online. People
offer things like hair cuts and oil changes, get points, then barter someone
else for things like meals or art lessons. Not enough are using it for it to
be effective. But it's in place, and I think more folks will join if things
get bad.

[Kitty P]

"Kitty P" <kitty...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:knd97v$deh$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> "noname" <nom...@nomail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:kncutu$lam$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 05/19/2013 02:14 PM, Kitty P wrote:
>>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
>>> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
>>>
>>> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>>>
>>> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food

>>> restaurants across five US cities - New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St
>>> Louise,
>>> Chicago - have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.

Here is the time bank link: http://www.locotimebank.org/

[liaM]

Le 5/20/2013 3:25 PM, Kitty P a �crit :

>> >Watch the stock market, I'm thinking a crash is in order; that whole game
>> >is manipulated by funds, it won't last forever.
>
> Again I agree. It's like this wonderful game of pull the rug by those
> manipulating the market. But either way it will have an eventual effect on
> the average citizen.
>

Cycles of crash and boom = milking the golden cow; but it's not the
average citizen that gets milked, rather it's people and institutions
that have several million dollars in their stock and bond and property
portfolios. 2008 lost them +30% of their net worth on average.

The great majority comprised of middle class america and the rural
poor are relatively unscathed - they stay poor, never having had any
better in their sights or in their destinies.

[Wilson]

On 5/19/2013 5:11 PM, liaM wrote:

> Le 5/19/2013 10:14 PM, Kitty P a écrit :
>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
>> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
>>
>> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>>
>>
>> or
>>
>> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>>
>> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food

>> restaurants across five US cities – New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St
>> Louise,
>> Chicago – have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.

>> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage ($7.40)
>> to a
>> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union
>> recognition and
>> the right to organise in the workplace.
>> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in annual
>> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation. Companies
>> such as

>> McDonald’s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable in the

>> world, so it is high time that they started paying the wealth creators
>> (the
>> workers) a fair wage."
>>
>> ---
>>
>> It's time.
>>
>>
>
>
> I'm curious to hear Wilson's opinion on this event..

To quote Hillary Clinton, "What difference does it make?"

I'd just expound some economic facts which would be denied by
Lukecarlos, and then Kitty would chime in about the unfairness of the
system, never understanding that fairness is not the way life in this
world works.

So why bother?

--
Wilson

[liaM]

So you're a cop-out when it suits you. What other conclusion can I draw
from this outrageous answer of yours.

[Ned Ludd]

"Wilson" <wil...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:J-2dnf3fIt101wfM...@supernews.com...

Two weeks ago a friend and his new wife visited here from Chicago.
He's a union organizer for SEIU, and was doing some work on the
organization of Kaiser Permanente workers here in Santa Rosa (but
actually going to their friends' wedding in Portland). This thing going
on now with service workers is the first significant national union
action in decades.

Ned

(It was GREAT to hear inside stories of the politics and
internecine warfare between unions, AND the tactics they
use against each other!)

[noname]

Well, yeah, the poor stay poor. And the idiots who take advice like
"put a percentage of your income in an IRA" get ripped off.

[noname]

On 05/20/2013 06:05 AM, awaken21 wrote:
> On Monday, May 20, 2013 7:14:12 AM UTC-4, noname wrote:
>
>>
>> Doesn't matter how many clues they have, they've known the situation has
>>
>> sucked since forever and there's not much they can do about it. Go out
>>
>> on strike and you're giving your job to some high-school kid.
>
> Is that why corporations go out of their way to crush an organized work force, because it's so ineffective?
>

The reason corporations bother is that organized work force is part of
their customer base. If not for their customer base, they wouldn't
care, they'd just go out and hire "scabs". Of course in this case their
employees are all scabs anyway (non-union employees).

I'm so glad I noticed that your lukecarlos address was in an old filter,
now your protestations about my cluelessness will provide nearly
unlimited entertainment.

[noname]

You ain't gonna get me to eat them "smart pills", I know they're rabbit
turds.

[noname]

On 05/20/2013 07:46 AM, Kitty P wrote:
> "noname" <nom...@nomail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:kncutu$lam$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 05/19/2013 02:14 PM, Kitty P wrote:
>>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
>>> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
>>>
>>> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>>>
>>> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food

>>> restaurants across five US cities � New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St
>>> Louise,
>>> Chicago � have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.

>>> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage ($7.40) to
>>> a
>>> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union recognition
>>> and
>>> the right to organise in the workplace.
>>> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in annual
>>> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation. Companies such
>>> as

>>> McDonald�s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable in the

When things really get bad (and I expect that they will) people will
help each other without any "barter cards"... well, except for the
assholes wearing suits standing next to their out-of-gas Mercedes,
they'll just get spat upon.

[Kitty P]

"Wilson" <wil...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:J-2dnf3fIt101wfM...@supernews.com...

> On 5/19/2013 5:11 PM, liaM wrote:

>> Le 5/19/2013 10:14 PM, Kitty P a �crit :

Oh snort. The world is unfair, but the federal minimum wage is a joke.
States that are courting higher paying manufacturing jobs have already
raised their rates and continue to do so periodically. Why? Because they
don't want to turn into Bangladesh with low paying jobs (like you find in
the South). I don't think the Fed rate has changed since two jobs ago before
I retired. Raising minimum wage actually helps the economy - since folks
making minimum wage actually 'spend' the money 'here', rather than investing
in the 'global' market. There are fewer people needing food, energy, and
medical assistance when rates are higher. The economic system can absorb it
without needing to continuously pass it on to consumers - and for any study
you can show me that it can't, I can double the number with economist who
say it can. Huge profits are wonderful to make, but there was a time where
a bit of it was shared by putting it into the most important resource they
had - folks working for them. Can we ever return to that concept? Not
according to people who believe it is their right to be wealthy at the
expense of their workers. But that attitude, at least in the U.S., has meant
the birth of no end of stuff, such as unions, association, and just plain
pissed off people. So - we will see what happens. It ought to be
interesting.

Kitty

[Kitty P]

"noname" <nom...@nomail.invalid> wrote in message

news:kndoll$amg$1...@dont-email.me...

Add to that the attempts in the works to cut social security benefits, with
a dash of global climate change, and we can't even rely on an ice flow to
put granny on anymore.

[daletx]

On 5/20/2013 12:02 PM, Ned Ludd wrote:
>
> "Wilson" <wil...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
> news:J-2dnf3fIt101wfM...@supernews.com...
>> On 5/19/2013 5:11 PM, liaM wrote:

>>> Le 5/19/2013 10:14 PM, Kitty P a �crit :

>>>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
>>>> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>
>>>> or
>>>> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>>>>
>>>> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food

>>>> restaurants across five US cities � New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St
>>>> Louise,
>>>> Chicago � have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.

>>>> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage ($7.40)
>>>> to a
>>>> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union
>>>> recognition and
>>>> the right to organise in the workplace.
>>>> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in
>>>> annual
>>>> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation. Companies
>>>> such as

>>>> McDonald�s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable in the

>>>> world, so it is high time that they started paying the wealth creators
>>>> (the
>>>> workers) a fair wage."
>>>> ---
>>>>
>>>> It's time.
>>>
>>> I'm curious to hear Wilson's opinion on this event..
>>
>> To quote Hillary Clinton, "What difference does it make?"
>> I'd just expound some economic facts which would be denied by
>> Lukecarlos, and then Kitty would chime in about the unfairness of the
>> system, never understanding that fairness is not the way life in this
>> world works.
>> So why bother?
>> --
>> Wilson
>>
>
> Two weeks ago a friend and his new wife visited here from Chicago.
> He's a union organizer for SEIU, and was doing some work on the
> organization of Kaiser Permanente workers here in Santa Rosa (but
> actually going to their friends' wedding in Portland). This thing going
> on now with service workers is the first significant national union
> action in decades.
>
> Ned
>
> (It was GREAT to hear inside stories of the politics and
> internecine warfare between unions, AND the tactics they
> use against each other!)

We really can't talk unions without P.K., can we?

DT

[Kitty P]

"noname" <nom...@nomail.invalid> wrote in message

news:kndp4q$ejb$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 05/20/2013 07:46 AM, Kitty P wrote:
>> "noname" <nom...@nomail.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:kncutu$lam$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> On 05/19/2013 02:14 PM, Kitty P wrote:
>>>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
>>>> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
>>>>
>>>> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>>>>
>>>> or
>>>>
>>>> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>>>>
>>>> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food

>>>> restaurants across five US cities � New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St
>>>> Louise,
>>>> Chicago � have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.

>>>> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage ($7.40)
>>>> to
>>>> a
>>>> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union recognition
>>>> and
>>>> the right to organise in the workplace.
>>>> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in
>>>> annual
>>>> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation. Companies
>>>> such
>>>> as

>>>> McDonald�s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable in the

I actually agree that people will help each other if things get to a certain
point. But other than you, I have never heard anyone else agree I think
people have bought into a concept from TV and movies that there will be an
enormous number of roving bands of bad guys waiting to rape and pillage. I
just don't buy it. If I'm wrong, I'm old and ready to die anyway.

[noname]

On 05/20/2013 12:50 PM, Kitty P wrote:
> "noname" <nom...@nomail.invalid> wrote in message
> news:kndp4q$ejb$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 05/20/2013 07:46 AM, Kitty P wrote:
>>> "noname" <nom...@nomail.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:kncutu$lam$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>> On 05/19/2013 02:14 PM, Kitty P wrote:
>>>>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
>>>>> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
>>>>>
>>>>> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>>>>>
>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>>>>>
>>>>> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food

>>>>> restaurants across five US cities � New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St
>>>>> Louise,
>>>>> Chicago � have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.

>>>>> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage ($7.40)
>>>>> to
>>>>> a
>>>>> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union recognition
>>>>> and
>>>>> the right to organise in the workplace.
>>>>> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in
>>>>> annual
>>>>> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation. Companies
>>>>> such
>>>>> as

>>>>> McDonald�s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable in the

The thing about anarchy is that there are no laws whatsoever to protect
the bad-guys from the good-guys. Anarchy has basically two laws, karma
and cause-effect; people tend not to believe that karma is anything more
than a fairytale and they also tend to believe that they are special so
cause-effect doesn't really apply to them. They are led around by their
desires; when things get bad enough at least some of them will figure
out which end is up.

[Ned Ludd]

"Kitty P" <kitty...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:kndr1e$pif$1...@dont-email.me...

I'll bet you he's neck deep in this. The day my friends visited there
were
city-wide walk-outs of service workers in three cities. And a day or two
after
they left, the Kaiser Permanente people voted to accept their union. Now
we have more of these walk-outs nationally. And service workers is where it
should start. They are the catch-all for anyone who can't get a job
anywhere
else, and are very close to Marx's "subsistence-level" workers.

Ned

[noname]

You worry too much, if you spent the same amount of time sharpening your
Mexican Credit Card you'd be better able to peel potatos.

[noname]

On 05/20/2013 01:06 PM, Ned Ludd wrote:
>
> "Kitty P" <kitty...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:kndr1e$pif$1...@dont-email.me...
>>
>> "noname" <nom...@nomail.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:kndp4q$ejb$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> On 05/20/2013 07:46 AM, Kitty P wrote:
>>>> "noname" <nom...@nomail.invalid> wrote in message
>>>> news:kncutu$lam$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>>> On 05/19/2013 02:14 PM, Kitty P wrote:
>>>>>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> or
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food

>>>>>> restaurants across five US cities � New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St
>>>>>> Louise,
>>>>>> Chicago � have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.

>>>>>> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage
>>>>>> ($7.40) to
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union
>>>>>> recognition
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> the right to organise in the workplace.
>>>>>> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in
>>>>>> annual
>>>>>> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation.
>>>>>> Companies such
>>>>>> as

>>>>>> McDonald�s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable

"He" who? Luke? And what does "neck deep" mean anyway?

[liaM]

Le 5/20/2013 9:06 PM, Ned Ludd a �crit :

> I'll bet you he's neck deep in this. The day my friends visited there
> were
> city-wide walk-outs of service workers in three cities. And a day or
> two after
> they left, the Kaiser Permanente people voted to accept their union. Now
> we have more of these walk-outs nationally. And service workers is
> where it
> should start. They are the catch-all for anyone who can't get a job
> anywhere
> else, and are very close to Marx's "subsistence-level" workers.
>
> Ned

There's been a sea-change since Obama's election. America's
underclasses were energised, never to return to their traditional
indifference to politics. It's as if an entire continent of
under-educated, under-privileged and dis-regarded folks broke off
and crashed into the sea. As a group of groups (blacks, latinos,
urban whites) they form the largest gawdawful union of working-poor
workers ever en-franchised.

The only group left to seek redress and foment rebellion in the
US will be the struggling folks in the Tea Party and their
representatives in the Congress and they don't stand a chance.
Let them eat crow. Caw, caw!

[liaM]

Le 5/20/2013 9:17 PM, noname a �crit :

>
> You worry too much, if you spent the same amount of time sharpening your
> Mexican Credit Card you'd be better able to peel potatos.

sweet :)

[liaM]

Le 5/20/2013 9:04 PM, noname a �crit :

> The thing about anarchy is that there are no laws whatsoever to protect
> the bad-guys from the good-guys. Anarchy has basically two laws, karma
> and cause-effect; people tend not to believe that karma is anything more
> than a fairytale and they also tend to believe that they are special so
> cause-effect doesn't really apply to them. They are led around by their
> desires; when things get bad enough at least some of them will figure
> out which end is up.

A technical analysis of the relationship between cause-and-effect and
the "law of karma" that says that good and bad guys get their just
rewards for their deeds on earth, is a work of great beauty and
power as evolved by generations of Tibetan lama philosophy debaters.
They came to the conclusion that cause-and-effect is incapable to
administer timely justice, and this not because of a philosophy of
transience, but through simple observation of life as it is : bad guys
get away with murder and innocents are regularly and unfairly
made to suffer.

So how does karma work. They see it as skipping generations and
families. Karma works completely anarchically, hitting sentient beings
seemingly without sense or reason. Karmic seeds flower in
other dimensions, impartially, administering true cause-and-effect
justice. This of course is why we humans should apply ourselves
to help wherever and whenever we can the disadvantaged that are
our fellow travellers here on earth. Think of it, it could be
you who's being waterboarded in Guantanamo.

[awaken21]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 2:13:03 PM UTC-4, noname wrote:
> On 05/20/2013 06:05 AM, awaken21 wrote:
>
> > On Monday, May 20, 2013 7:14:12 AM UTC-4, noname wrote:
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >> Doesn't matter how many clues they have, they've known the situation has
>
> >>
>
> >> sucked since forever and there's not much they can do about it. Go out
>
> >>
>
> >> on strike and you're giving your job to some high-school kid.
>
> >
>
> > Is that why corporations go out of their way to crush an organized work force, because it's so ineffective?
>
> >
>
>
>
> The reason corporations bother is that organized work force is part of
>
> their customer base.

Yea they call the police and lobby for laws against ALL their customer base. After all how better to attract a customer base than violence?

Fer goodness sake man, wake up.

[Kitty P]

"liaM" <cud...@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:kne0m5$rs8$2...@dont-email.me...

I'm going to use that one.

[Wilson]

Typical leftist, calling reality outrageous, as if that changes things.

--
Wilson

[Wilson]

On 5/20/2013 2:31 PM, Kitty P wrote:
> "Wilson"<wil...@nowhere.net> wrote

>> On 5/19/2013 5:11 PM, liaM wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm curious to hear Wilson's opinion on this event..
>>
>> To quote Hillary Clinton, "What difference does it make?"
>>
>> I'd just expound some economic facts which would be denied by Lukecarlos,
>> and then Kitty would chime in about the unfairness of the system, never
>> understanding that fairness is not the way life in this world works.
>>
>> So why bother?
>

> Oh snort. The world is unfair, but the federal minimum wage is a joke.
> States that are courting higher paying manufacturing jobs have already
> raised their rates and continue to do so periodically. Why? Because they
> don't want to turn into Bangladesh with low paying jobs (like you find in
> the South). I don't think the Fed rate has changed since two jobs ago before
> I retired. Raising minimum wage actually helps the economy - since folks
> making minimum wage actually 'spend' the money 'here', rather than investing
> in the 'global' market. There are fewer people needing food, energy, and
> medical assistance when rates are higher. The economic system can absorb it
> without needing to continuously pass it on to consumers - and for any study
> you can show me that it can't, I can double the number with economist who
> say it can. Huge profits are wonderful to make, but there was a time where
> a bit of it was shared by putting it into the most important resource they
> had - folks working for them. Can we ever return to that concept? Not
> according to people who believe it is their right to be wealthy at the
> expense of their workers. But that attitude, at least in the U.S., has meant
> the birth of no end of stuff, such as unions, association, and just plain
> pissed off people. So - we will see what happens. It ought to be
> interesting.
>
> Kitty

Well I have two questions.

1. What happens when the job I need to have done requires a wage that's
lower than the minimum? Money does not come out of thin air, if an
employer can afford to hire someone at $7 an hour but there isn't enough
money to pay $15 an hour, then what?

2. If $15 an hour is better than $8, why not $25? Why not $50? Why not
guarantee that everyone makes $100,000 a year? I really want to know
why the line gets drawn where it does.

--
Wilson

[awaken21]

Actually he's calling your theories on reality outrageous. It's understandable how you could be confused.

[Sanford Manley]

On 5/20/2013 2:38 PM, Kitty P wrote:
> Add to that the attempts in the works to cut social security benefits, with
> a dash of global climate change, and we can't even rely on an ice flow to
> put granny on anymore.

If it comes to that, I'll save you Kitty!

--
Sanford

[Sanford Manley]

On 5/20/2013 2:50 PM, Kitty P wrote:
> I actually agree that people will help each other if things get to a certain
> point. But other than you, I have never heard anyone else agree I think
> people have bought into a concept from TV and movies that there will be an
> enormous number of roving bands of bad guys waiting to rape and pillage. I
> just don't buy it. If I'm wrong, I'm old and ready to die anyway.

Gosh, I KNOW you are not ready to die.

--
Sanford

[Sanford Manley]

I will build an ice flow one cube at a time and help you float away ;)


--
Sanford

[Kitty P]

"Wilson" <wil...@nowhere.net> wrote in message

news:bOCdnYQETPPpIAfM...@supernews.com...

I worked in an advisory capacity with business and industry for many years.
Businesses have to live within their budgets just like the rest of us.
Making a profit isn't luck for most businesses. They have a plan. That plan
is budgeted. It is integral to a thriving businesses over the long run. A
decent wage can be factored in - it might mean less profit, but it doesn't
mean there will be no profit. If a business can't thrive if people are payed
a living wage, then perhaps they shouldn't be in existence in the first
place. My opinon - but I know where you're coming from.

>
> 2. If $15 an hour is better than $8, why not $25? Why not $50? Why not
> guarantee that everyone makes $100,000 a year? I really want to know why
> the line gets drawn where it does.

There is actually a range of numbers based on dept. of labor stats on what
it costs for someone to live without having to access welfare. No one likes
to be pinned down on those numbers for a variety of reasons. But it's
related a percentage of the poverty level, taking into account that some
will still be in poverty, but others will find ways to claw their way out at
that amount. I don't know what the present living wage might be, and I do
know it most likely varies by region. It isn't an accident that southern
states have the lowest state minimum wage - yet access more welfare related
benefits than any other states in the union. Oklahoma is a teaching moment.

>
> --
> Wilson

[Kitty P]

"Sanford Manley" <ans...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:knei6l$ebe$4...@dont-email.me...

Ah heck - I would end up wanting to make myself a rum and diet coke.

[Nobody in Particular]

"Wilson" wrote in message
news:-sOdnRbp48pWJgfM...@supernews.com...

>
> On 5/20/2013 12:35 PM, liaM wrote:

> > Le 5/20/2013 6:10 PM, Wilson a �crit :

> >> On 5/19/2013 5:11 PM, liaM wrote:

> >>> Le 5/19/2013 10:14 PM, Kitty P a �crit :

> >>>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
> >>>> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
> >>>>
> >>>> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> or
> >>>>
> >>>> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
> >>>>
> >>>> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food

> >>>> restaurants across five US cities � New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St
> >>>> Louise,
> >>>> Chicago � have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.

> >>>> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage
> >>>> ($7.40)
> >>>> to a
> >>>> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union
> >>>> recognition and
> >>>> the right to organise in the workplace.
> >>>> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in
> >>>> annual
> >>>> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation. Companies
> >>>> such as

> >>>> McDonald�s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable in

> >>>> the
> >>>> world, so it is high time that they started paying the wealth
> >>>> creators
> >>>> (the
> >>>> workers) a fair wage."
> >>>>
> >>>> ---
> >>>>
> >>>> It's time.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I'm curious to hear Wilson's opinion on this event..
> >>
> >> To quote Hillary Clinton, "What difference does it make?"
> >>
> >> I'd just expound some economic facts which would be denied by
> >> Lukecarlos, and then Kitty would chime in about the unfairness of the
> >> system, never understanding that fairness is not the way life in this
> >> world works.
> >>
> >> So why bother?
> >>
> >
> >
> > So you're a cop-out when it suits you. What other conclusion can I draw
> > from this outrageous answer of yours.
>
> Typical leftist, calling reality outrageous, as if that changes things.

Typical rightist, building their amorality and avarice into a fake construct
and pushing that as "reality", so that they don't have to change things.

[noname]

Luke the avoider.

[noname]

Either the universe is orderly and everything happens for a reason, or
it is chaotic and nothing happens for any reason at all; pick one and go
with it.

If you decide that the universe is chaotic, abandon reason because
within a chaotic universe reason can only be a lie.

If you decide that the universe is orderly, abandon the idea that
anything at all is random because within a purely causal universe
randomness can only be a lie.

Causality is what results from the existence of time within an orderly
universe, not because time is essential to causality, but because time
allows us to perceive the causal, time provides the framework within
with "if-->then" becomes meaningful.

Causality and chaos cannot both determine the essential nature of the
universe; pick one.

If you wish to believe that the universe contains any semblance of
justice that means you have chosen causality over chaos.

If you choose causality and believe that anything is random, you are
denying the simple fact that you don't understand how the universe works
sufficiently to see that the apparently random are not random at all.

It isn't that you're too stupid to see how "karma" works, it's more that
you don't understand how occurrence operates, not because you're
incapable of it, but because your perspective is not one from which it
can be understood.

> Think of it, it could be
> you who's being waterboarded in Guantanamo.
>

Actually no, it could not, because it is not; it could become me, or
you, who is being "waterboarded in Guantanamo", or buggered in prison,
or shot during a robbery, or destroyed by a tornado, but it has not
become us, so it could not be us.

You seem to think that is magic, that "randomness" has somehow brought
one to disaster while another remains unharmed.

There is no magic; in a causal universe there is only order which may
appear magical because it is not understood, and in a chaotic universe
there is no causality to give rise to magic.

[Wilson]

Well one thing is for sure, if the business can't afford to increase the
pay required by the minimum wage, that *job* certainly does disappear.
Minimum wage rules cause unemployment among youth and inexperienced workers.

>
>>
>> 2. If $15 an hour is better than $8, why not $25? Why not $50? Why not
>> guarantee that everyone makes $100,000 a year? I really want to know why
>> the line gets drawn where it does.
>
> There is actually a range of numbers based on dept. of labor stats on what
> it costs for someone to live without having to access welfare. No one likes
> to be pinned down on those numbers for a variety of reasons. But it's
> related a percentage of the poverty level, taking into account that some
> will still be in poverty, but others will find ways to claw their way out at
> that amount. I don't know what the present living wage might be, and I do
> know it most likely varies by region. It isn't an accident that southern
> states have the lowest state minimum wage - yet access more welfare related
> benefits than any other states in the union. Oklahoma is a teaching moment.

You sidestepped and didn't answer my question. If $15 an hour is better
than $7, why isn't $30 better than $15?

--
Wilson

[Wilson]

On 5/21/2013 12:57 AM, Nobody in Particular wrote:
> "Wilson" wrote in message
> news:-sOdnRbp48pWJgfM...@supernews.com...
>>
>> On 5/20/2013 12:35 PM, liaM wrote:

>> > Le 5/20/2013 6:10 PM, Wilson a écrit :
>> >> On 5/19/2013 5:11 PM, liaM wrote:

>> >>> Le 5/19/2013 10:14 PM, Kitty P a écrit :
>> >>>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> >>>> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
>> >>>> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> or
>> >>>>
>> >>>> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food

>> >>>> restaurants across five US cities – New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St
>> >>>> Louise,
>> >>>> Chicago – have walked off the job and have picketed their

>> workplaces.
>> >>>> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage
>> >>>> ($7.40)
>> >>>> to a
>> >>>> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union
>> >>>> recognition and
>> >>>> the right to organise in the workplace.
>> >>>> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in
>> >>>> annual
>> >>>> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation. Companies
>> >>>> such as

>> >>>> McDonald’s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable

>> in >>>> the
>> >>>> world, so it is high time that they started paying the wealth
>> >>>> creators
>> >>>> (the
>> >>>> workers) a fair wage."
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ---
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It's time.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I'm curious to hear Wilson's opinion on this event..
>> >>
>> >> To quote Hillary Clinton, "What difference does it make?"
>> >>
>> >> I'd just expound some economic facts which would be denied by
>> >> Lukecarlos, and then Kitty would chime in about the unfairness of the
>> >> system, never understanding that fairness is not the way life in this
>> >> world works.
>> >>
>> >> So why bother?
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > So you're a cop-out when it suits you. What other conclusion can I draw
>> > from this outrageous answer of yours.
>>
>> Typical leftist, calling reality outrageous, as if that changes things.
>
> Typical rightist, building their amorality and avarice into a fake
> construct and pushing that as "reality", so that they don't have to
> change things.

Do you have to change things?

--
Wilson

[awaken21]

Then you need to rethink your business plan.

>
> >> 2. If $15 an hour is better than $8, why not $25? Why not $50? Why not
>
> >> guarantee that everyone makes $100,000 a year? I really want to know why
>
> >> the line gets drawn where it does.

Argument to the absurd. The standard is "A living wage". Which word are you having problems with?

>
> You sidestepped and didn't answer my question. If $15 an hour is better
>
> than $7, why isn't $30 better than $15?
>

Because we're trying to balance the needs of the citizens and society with the needs of it's economic support?

Because there is a standard that fixes the number according to the circumstance and that standard is "a living wage".

[awaken21]

Says the man who just completely dismissed thousands of years of violence against the hardest workers in society.

[awaken21]

I kind of hope we're all ready to die. I also hope no one feels like dying.

[Wilson]

On 5/21/2013 9:48 AM, awaken21 wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 7:43:09 AM UTC-4, Wilson wrote:
>>
>>>> 2. If $15 an hour is better than $8, why not $25? Why not $50? Why not
>>>> guarantee that everyone makes $100,000 a year? I really want to know why
>>>> the line gets drawn where it does.
>
> Argument to the absurd. The standard is "A living wage". Which word are you having problems with?

Why is "the standard" a living wage? Why do we have to pay teenagers
and college students enough to support a family?

That makes no sense.

>> You sidestepped and didn't answer my question. If $15 an hour is better
>> than $7, why isn't $30 better than $15?
>
> Because we're trying to balance the needs of the citizens and society with the needs of it's economic support?

Lovely! When you do something that finally actually produces positive
results in that direction let me know :p

>
> Because there is a standard that fixes the number according to the circumstance and that standard is "a living wage".

That's just more ruling class propaganda.

--
Wilson

[Kitty P]

"awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:824158fb-70bf-4cd4...@googlegroups.com...

Yes - and it's the argument that loses folks who still believe that what is
good for business is good for everyone. That ship has so sailed. But the
business/ economic factors of paying people a living wage is a long list
nonetheless.

But the answer to your question is that there are specific numbers based on
actual numbers city to city, state to state that are based on a 'rational'
calculation. When looking at that, $15 is high for an individual with no
kids, But $15 is not enough if someone is trying to support kids.

Here is a calculator http://livingwage.mit.edu/. I had to calculate living
wage and then the wages people would get for every program I started when I
was working. Where I live, an individual can live on $8.13 an hour if they
don't mind living in relative squallor and will still need food stamps.
Living doesn't mean living well - it just means not being homeless. If they
have 1 child, $18.53. If 1 adult with 2 children, then $23.23, and so on.
The minimum wage in Oregon is $8.95. If I'm not mistaken, the fed rate is
still $7.25, as is the minimum rate in your state Wilson.

Kitty
"The half-life of not getting the point is forever."
- Stanley Kubrick

[Kitty P]

"awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:a85066f6-3cd2-42bf...@googlegroups.com...

True dat. To fear death is to die every time the fear comes into ones mind.
To not fear death is one of those baby steps out of the quagmire.

[daletx]

On 5/20/2013 2:06 PM, Ned Ludd wrote:
>
> "Kitty P" <kitty...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:kndr1e$pif$1...@dont-email.me...
>>
>> "noname" <nom...@nomail.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:kndp4q$ejb$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> On 05/20/2013 07:46 AM, Kitty P wrote:
>>>> "noname" <nom...@nomail.invalid> wrote in message
>>>> news:kncutu$lam$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>>> On 05/19/2013 02:14 PM, Kitty P wrote:

>>>>>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>>>>>> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> or
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food

>>>>>> restaurants across five US cities � New York, Detroit, Milwaukee, St
>>>>>> Louise,
>>>>>> Chicago � have walked off the job and have picketed their workplaces.

>>>>>> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage
>>>>>> ($7.40) to
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union
>>>>>> recognition
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> the right to organise in the workplace.
>>>>>> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in
>>>>>> annual
>>>>>> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation.
>>>>>> Companies such
>>>>>> as

>>>>>> McDonald�s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable

>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> world, so it is high time that they started paying the wealth
>>>>>> creators
>>>>>> (the
>>>>>> workers) a fair wage."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>

>> I actually agree that people will help each other if things get to a
>> certain point. But other than you, I have never heard anyone else
>> agree I think people have bought into a concept from TV and movies
>> that there will be an enormous number of roving bands of bad guys
>> waiting to rape and pillage. I just don't buy it. If I'm wrong, I'm
>> old and ready to die anyway.
>

> I'll bet you he's neck deep in this. The day my friends visited there
> were
> city-wide walk-outs of service workers in three cities. And a day or
> two after
> they left, the Kaiser Permanente people voted to accept their union. Now
> we have more of these walk-outs nationally. And service workers is
> where it
> should start. They are the catch-all for anyone who can't get a job
> anywhere
> else, and are very close to Marx's "subsistence-level" workers.
>
> Ned

I guess you noticed the "I am a man" posters. Hearkens back to the
sanitation workers' strike in '68. At least.
http://tinyurl.com/l6rdljl

DT

[Ned Ludd]

"daletx" <dal...@gnusguy.com> wrote in message
news:kngcc...@news4.newsguy.com...

Raises an interesting question, given that service workers
have an above average proportion of blacks. Who today
could fulfill the function of MLK?

So I googled "most trusted black leaders" and got some
article that mentioned Ebony's list of 100 most influential
black Americans. So I googled that, and got...
http://www.ebony.com/entertainment-culture/ebony-reveals-its-2012-power-100-list-100#axzz2TxHiHhll

Now, here are the first 20 on that list...

1. Cornel West, Ph.D
2. LeBron James
3. Barack Obama
4. T. J. Martin
5. Eric Holder
6. Mary Mary
7. Bishop T. D. Jakes
8. Jesse Williams
9. Michelle Obama
10. Susan E. Rice, Ph.D
11. Tananarive Due
12. The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan
13. Cee Lo Green
14. Beverly Daniel Tatum, Ph.D
15. Frederick D. Haynes III, Ph.D
16. Robin Roberts
17. Toni Morrison
18. Natasha Eubanks
19. Ava DuVernay
20. Mara Brock Akil and Salim Akil

Sorry to admit, I only recognize 9 names on that list -
and some I just recognize and don't know anything about.

Ned

[Wilson]

The minimum wage increases unemployment in the youth and the
inexperienced. Where's the fairness there?

--
Wilson

[Kitty P]

"Wilson" <wil...@nowhere.net> wrote in message

news:zO-dnU4x2Kc8kAHM...@supernews.com...

They aren't getting jobs now anyway.

When I was a teenager, there was a temporary change in minimum wage. Teens
under 18 were paid less in order to give us work that, for the most part,
adults didn't want to do. Unfortunately, I'm not sure kids would do those
jobs now.

[i2i]

"Kitty P" wrote in message news:knh8vc$2vk$1...@dont-email.me...

=====================\\

when I was a teenager I had a job
at minimum wage in a cafeteria and
when I got my 90 days in I was set to
get a big 10 cents an hour raise when
nixon froze all wages to help the economy.

with that extra 4 bucks a week I could have
monopolized the world money markets all
by my lonesome.

[awaken21]

The youth and inexperienced most often aren't responsible for families. It's a hard decision, but if we're weighing that against creating a large thriving working/middle class...

[brian mitchell]

noname wrote:

>Either the universe is orderly and everything happens for a reason, or
>it is chaotic and nothing happens for any reason at all; pick one and go
>with it.

This is a false dichotomy, representing the triumph of logic over observation. Order and chaos,
regularity and randomicity, co-exist. Randomicity doesn't deny causation, only the regularity and
predictability of causation. Order is regularity: the conditions A and B obtaining, C regularly
arises. But sometimes X arises instead. The example we have right before us is genetic mutation.
Fortunately for life and interest, we live in an imperfect universe.

"There is a crack in everything, it's where the light gets in."

[noname]

The major contributor to what it costs to live is what it costs to be
allowed to live, namely rent or mortgage, and neither amounts are
regulated by anything except greed. If people want to live on $8 an
hour rents will have to come down but they won't because landlords think
they are "investors" entitled to free living based on their initial
investment, and mortgage amounts are set by real-estate "investors" and
building contractors with similar views, except that contractors are
willing to do *some* work as long as they can triple their costs without
breaking much of a sweat. If you want real freedom that needs to
include economic freedom which means the real-estate market has to
splash on the floor and that's not likely without some kind of major
plague or other reduction in world population so one way or another suck
it up and deal.

> Kitty
> "The half-life of not getting the point is forever."
> - Stanley Kubrick

Yeah and nobody ever fucking snips anything.

[noname]

When I was a teenager kids needed a work permit for the privilege of
wiping bugs off the windshields of Cadillacs for $1.65 per hour.

[noname]

Yes; on the other hand there are teenagers who get worked up over each
other and make babies and then need to make a living.

[noname]

On 05/21/2013 05:50 AM, Wilson wrote:
> On 5/21/2013 12:57 AM, Nobody in Particular wrote:
>> "Wilson" wrote in message
>> news:-sOdnRbp48pWJgfM...@supernews.com...
>>>
>>> On 5/20/2013 12:35 PM, liaM wrote:

>>> > Le 5/20/2013 6:10 PM, Wilson a �crit :

>>> >> On 5/19/2013 5:11 PM, liaM wrote:

>>> >>> Le 5/19/2013 10:14 PM, Kitty P a �crit :

>>> >>>> "awaken21" <lukec...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> >>>> news:26f25d8f-24b9-4f70...@googlegroups.com...
>>> >>>> Have you heard about it in corporate owned media?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> https://iamunchienandalusia.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/largest-fast-food-strike-in-us-history-spreads-across-five-cities/
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> or
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> http://bit.ly/10GuaVT
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> "Over the last week thousands of workers from hundreds of fast food

>>> >>>> restaurants across five US cities � New York, Detroit,
>>> Milwaukee, St
>>> >>>> Louise,
>>> >>>> Chicago � have walked off the job and have picketed their

>>> workplaces.
>>> >>>> Workers are demanding an increase of the derisory minimum wage
>>> >>>> ($7.40)
>>> >>>> to a
>>> >>>> living wage to $15 an hour. They are also calling for union
>>> >>>> recognition and
>>> >>>> the right to organise in the workplace.
>>> >>>> The fast food industry in the US generates hundreds of billions in
>>> >>>> annual
>>> >>>> sales and employs 3.5 million people in food preparation. Companies
>>> >>>> such as

>>> >>>> McDonald�s, KFC, and Burger King are some of the most profitable

>>> in >>>> the
>>> >>>> world, so it is high time that they started paying the wealth
>>> >>>> creators
>>> >>>> (the
>>> >>>> workers) a fair wage."
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> ---
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> It's time.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I'm curious to hear Wilson's opinion on this event..
>>> >>
>>> >> To quote Hillary Clinton, "What difference does it make?"
>>> >>
>>> >> I'd just expound some economic facts which would be denied by
>>> >> Lukecarlos, and then Kitty would chime in about the unfairness of the
>>> >> system, never understanding that fairness is not the way life in this
>>> >> world works.
>>> >>
>>> >> So why bother?
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > So you're a cop-out when it suits you. What other conclusion can I
>>> draw
>>> > from this outrageous answer of yours.
>>>
>>> Typical leftist, calling reality outrageous, as if that changes things.
>>
>> Typical rightist, building their amorality and avarice into a fake
>> construct and pushing that as "reality", so that they don't have to
>> change things.
>
> Do you have to change things?
>

http://terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html#Kap29

[noname]

No son, I don't dismiss it, remember me, I'm the anarchist, I'm the guy
who says that they had already submitted to artificial law and needed to
be shat upon to wake them up to see what they had done to themselves.

[noname]

On 05/22/2013 04:41 AM, brian mitchell wrote:
> noname wrote:
>
>> Either the universe is orderly and everything happens for a reason, or
>> it is chaotic and nothing happens for any reason at all; pick one and go
>> with it.
>
> This is a false dichotomy, representing the triumph of logic over observation.

No, I believe it is not, because I have observed it to be true.

> Order and chaos,
> regularity and randomicity, co-exist. Randomicity doesn't deny causation, only the regularity and
> predictability of causation.

Where I used "random" in the sense of "a-causal", you are using it in
the sense of "subtle beyond prediction". You'll not trick me into
accepting an argument based on apples vs oranges;
subtle-beyond-prediction is not the same as a-causal.

And those so-called "random" events are only "subtle beyond prediction"
when one uses a predictive model based on incorrect premises, for
example the presumption that the material is all-determinative when in
fact the material is the determin-ee rather than the determin-or.

> Order is regularity: the conditions A and B obtaining, C regularly
> arises. But sometimes X arises instead. The example we have right before us is genetic mutation.
> Fortunately for life and interest, we live in an imperfect universe.

We actually do live in a perfect universe, it's the common understanding
of it that's flawed.

> "There is a crack in everything, it's where the light gets in."

Who are you quoting there? For all I know it could be Alfred E. Neuman,
"What, me worry?"

[daletx]

When I was a teenager, we hauled hay during the summer at so much a
bale. Worked out to somewhere between a buck and a buck fifty an hour,
if I remember correctly. And it was miserable effin' work.

DT

[daletx]

Beats me, I only recognized 8.

2. athlete
3. Pres
5. AG
9. Mrs. Pres
10. UN Ambassador
12. Hmmm
13. Entertainer
17. Author

DT

[Wilson]

I keep getting you and Nobody in Particular confused. I should change
my name to Noway Nohow. That would probably fix it.

--
Wilson

[Wilson]

When I was a teenager I helped my uncle on his dairy farm. It's a
wonder I can drink milk.

--
Wilson

[Wilson]

The middle class do not earn minimum wage.

--
Wilson

[Wilson]

Oh, what a pile of bullshite.

Rents are set based on what people will pay. People will pay based on
how much money they have and perceived value. If you think the free
exchange of value is unfair, what do you recommend that would be better?

--
Wilson

[noname]

How does that matter? What was available where I lived was not hauling
hay. As a skinny teenager, I'd probably have paid $.20 an hour for the
exercise.

[noname]

I still can't abide raw milk and it's been almost 50 years since I spent
part of a summer on a dairy farm moving cow shit.

You can make damned fine hand made ice cream out of it though.

[noname]

What middle class?

[noname]

Usually you don't say anything quite as stupid as that, Wilson. Move
into a city where you make minimum wage, rent an apartment there, try
and buy food, good luck.

> If you think the free
> exchange of value is unfair, what do you recommend that would be better?
>

Even the free exchange of value would be fair compared to the forced
exchange that is the current situation.

Money is what you get from assholes you wouldn't otherwise give the time
of day, it's a sop to societal requirements that you not just spit on
them and let them eat shit and die.

[i2i]

"noname" wrote in message news:knj37o$70q$3...@dont-email.me...

cow shit ice cream? thanks,
but I think I'll pass.

[Julian]

I remember a farmer who would never water the milk
for fear of being busted by the milk marketing board
for low density product. It was ok if he pissed in it though.

[brian mitchell]

noname wrote:

>On 05/22/2013 04:41 AM, brian mitchell wrote:
>> noname wrote:
>>
>>> Either the universe is orderly and everything happens for a reason, or
>>> it is chaotic and nothing happens for any reason at all; pick one and go
>>> with it.
>>
>> This is a false dichotomy, representing the triumph of logic over observation.
>
>No, I believe it is not, because I have observed it to be true.
>
>> Order and chaos,
>> regularity and randomicity, co-exist. Randomicity doesn't deny causation, only the regularity and
>> predictability of causation.
>
>Where I used "random" in the sense of "a-causal", you are using it in
>the sense of "subtle beyond prediction". You'll not trick me into
>accepting an argument based on apples vs oranges;
>subtle-beyond-prediction is not the same as a-causal.

I'd suggest that a less false dichotomy would be that there is either cause or there is nothing, not
even chaos. But while one might say with some confidence that every occurrence is caused, what one
cannot say with any certainty at all, especially in the area of subtle-beyond-prediction, is that
any given occurrence always has the same cause or set of causes. One might believe that as an
article of faith served by reason, but that is what such as assertion would be.

>> "There is a crack in everything, it's where the light gets in."
>
>Who are you quoting there?

One of my favorite religious poets, Leonard Cohen.

[i2i]

"Julian" wrote in message news:knjc3h$ui8$1...@dont-email.me...

==================\\


http://www.universal-tao.com/article/urine_therapy.html

[Nobody in Particular]

"Wilson" wrote in message
news:lN2dnT6c4NiPYgHM...@supernews.com...

The distinction should become easy.
I've left a while ago, and am not really sure why I came back.
I'll leave again, possibly for good.

[Wilson]

One does not have to live in the city. Doesn't have to rent an
apartment alone either for that matter. No one should be working for
minimum wage and trying to maintain a household.

>
>> If you think the free
>> exchange of value is unfair, what do you recommend that would be better?
>>
>
> Even the free exchange of value would be fair compared to the forced
> exchange that is the current situation.

The only forced exchange is what the government requires us to pay.

>
> Money is what you get from assholes you wouldn't otherwise give the time
> of day, it's a sop to societal requirements that you not just spit on
> them and let them eat shit and die.

As a merchant, I feel that way about my customers from time to time.
And I often felt that way about my bosses. Some, I wouldn't have pissed
on if they were on fire. I am sure they appreciated the consideration.

--
Wilson

[liaM]

Le 5/22/2013 11:10 PM, Julian a �crit :

> I remember a farmer who would never water the milk
> for fear of being busted by the milk marketing board
> for low density product. It was ok if he pissed in it though.

:-)

[liaM]

Le 5/23/2013 12:54 AM, brian mitchell a �crit :

>>> >>"There is a crack in everything, it's where the light gets in."
>> >
>> >Who are you quoting there?
> One of my favorite religious poets, Leonard Cohen.

:-) :-)

[liaM]

Le 5/22/2013 10:22 PM, i2i a �crit :

>
>> I still can't abide raw milk and it's been almost 50 years since I
>> spent part of a summer on a dairy farm moving cow shit.
>
>> You can make damned fine hand made ice cream out of it though.
>
> cow shit ice cream? thanks, but I think I'll pass.

:-) :-) :-)

[Wilson]

If you leave and then come back quickly, you just might pass yourself on
the way.

--
Wilson

[Ned Ludd]

"Wilson" <wil...@nowhere.net> wrote in message

news:54adnV-JsPsV_QDM...@supernews.com...

But only if the universe rotates.

Ned

(Thank Gödel!)

[i2i]

"Wilson" wrote in message
news:M6mdnU4WI9qywgDM...@supernews.com...

=====================\\


the smell of burning piss on
burning human flesh has got
to be a nose turner

[i2i]

"Wilson" wrote in message
news:54adnV-JsPsV_QDM...@supernews.com...

==========\\

I went to go find myself.
if I return before I get back
please ask me to wait until
I arrive

[noname]

The laws of the United States forbid the hunter-gatherer lifestyle, it's
considered "trespassing". When every inch of land is "owned" and the
law forbids trespassing, not having a fixed abode is basically illegal.
Personally I would say that a government that enforces such a policy
is obligated to provide an equivalent for what it has stolen; not
everyone agrees.

Of course since the land you "own" can be taken away by the government
for non-payment of taxes, or by "right of emminent domain", you don't
really own it; you're renting it from the government and your rent is
called "property tax".

> No one should be working for
> minimum wage and trying to maintain a household.

In that sentence you have affirmed a belief in the idea that work
entitles one to a wage, and more importantly the converse, that without
working one should receive nothing. It is a belief that is a throwback
to the Pilgrims, "no work, no food". How hypocritical it is that a
predominately "Christian" society holds that belief as unquestioned
while on the other hand it idolizes the man who said, "Look at the birds
of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your
heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?"

And how incredibly stupid it is to believe that "work" must equate to
holding a job and doing what one is told.

>>> If you think the free
>>> exchange of value is unfair, what do you recommend that would be better?
>>>
>>
>> Even the free exchange of value would be fair compared to the forced
>> exchange that is the current situation.
>
> The only forced exchange is what the government requires us to pay.

Since the government enforces the trespass laws, it requires us to pay
rent (or mortgage or equivalent).

[noname]

On 05/22/2013 04:54 PM, brian mitchell wrote:
> noname wrote:
>
>> On 05/22/2013 04:41 AM, brian mitchell wrote:
>>> noname wrote:
>>>
>>>> Either the universe is orderly and everything happens for a reason, or
>>>> it is chaotic and nothing happens for any reason at all; pick one and go
>>>> with it.
>>>
>>> This is a false dichotomy, representing the triumph of logic over observation.
>>
>> No, I believe it is not, because I have observed it to be true.
>>
>>> Order and chaos,
>>> regularity and randomicity, co-exist. Randomicity doesn't deny causation, only the regularity and
>>> predictability of causation.
>>
>> Where I used "random" in the sense of "a-causal", you are using it in
>> the sense of "subtle beyond prediction". You'll not trick me into
>> accepting an argument based on apples vs oranges;
>> subtle-beyond-prediction is not the same as a-causal.
>
> I'd suggest that a less false dichotomy would be that there is either cause or there is nothing, not
> even chaos.

That sounds unprovable enough to be acceptable to some.

> But while one might say with some confidence that every occurrence is caused, what one
> cannot say with any certainty at all, especially in the area of subtle-beyond-prediction, is that
> any given occurrence always has the same cause or set of causes. One might believe that as an
> article of faith served by reason, but that is what such as assertion would be.

Your presentation shows that you still believe causation to be contained
within the material universe, rather than the other way around.

The material universe is an effect rather than a cause; there are no
primal causes within the material universe, the material universe
contains only portions of causal chains which never include the primal.

>>> "There is a crack in everything, it's where the light gets in."
>>
>> Who are you quoting there?
>
> One of my favorite religious poets, Leonard Cohen.
>

Is he related to Cohen The Barbarian (of Pratchett fame)?

[brian mitchell]

Causation is causation, no? Those differentiations belong to your familiar top-down religious
cosmogony. "Primal Cause" might as well be termed 'Creation', except that that would be rather too
blatant. That's all fine by me. My only point was that order and chaos contain the seeds of each
other, as in the Yin/Yang symbol, and, I have little doubt, co-exist at all possible levels of a
possibly segmented universe.

[noname]

Yes.

> Those differentiations belong to your familiar top-down religious
> cosmogony. "Primal Cause" might as well be termed 'Creation', except that that would be rather too
> blatant.

Either you're misreading me, or I wrote poorly. I'm not saying "God did
it" at all, for that matter the idea that all of "creation" ever came
into existence, as opposed to having simply always existed, is one that
it is not necessary to accept. I will try to paraphrase to make it more
clear.

The material universe is an effect, not a cause.
All primal causes originate in a realm beyond the material universe.
All causal chains that appear within the material universe are
incomplete; the primal cause in each originates "outside" of the
material universe.

> That's all fine by me. My only point was that order and chaos contain the seeds of each
> other, as in the Yin/Yang symbol, and, I have little doubt, co-exist at all possible levels of a
> possibly segmented universe.
>

Order and chaos don't contain the seeds of each other, they are separate
and mutually exclusive; true chaos does not exist within the material
universe, any more than acausal events occur within the material
universe. Chaos theory has to do with a level of complexity beyond
human understanding, and that is not the same as true chaos which admits
no order whatsoever.

You might be asking what difference it makes. If a man lives in a box
what difference does it make whether the sun is visible outside the box
or not. The difference is that because he lives in a box, the man
cannot see the sun, and will almost certainly be unable to explain why
the temperature of certain walls varies over time. He may decide that
it is magic, ie "random", since it has nothing to do with anything
inside the box. This is the situation human science is in, because
presuming that everything causal is within the box of the material
universe it can only conclude that the unexplained is inexplicable or
"random".

One may well say that science will eventually discover the reasons
behind inexplicable changes in the temperature of the box's walls, but
unless it hypothesizes that all evidence available is only the evidence
available within the box of materiality, it will never escape from the
phenomenon of the inexplicable "random" occurrence.

For that matter we (mankind) might as well be deaf and blind for all the
information our physical senses give us, we can't see infrared for
example, and if not for lightning and similarly obvious manifestations
of electricity we'd probably never have discovered it. If you can't
sense something there's no way you can know it's there to sense except
for logic. When the pieces don't fit there's a reason they don't fit,
and a partial set of pieces will never become a complete picture.

[awaken21]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 7:47:06 AM UTC-4, noname wrote:
> On 05/21/2013 09:09 PM, awaken21 wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:13:18 PM UTC-4, Wilson wrote:
>

> >> The minimum wage increases unemployment in the youth and the
>
> >>
>
> >> inexperienced. Where's the fairness there?
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> > The youth and inexperienced most often aren't responsible for families. It's a hard decision, but if we're weighing that against creating a large thriving working/middle class...
>
> >
>
>
>
> Yes; on the other hand there are teenagers who get worked up over each
>
> other and make babies and then need to make a living.

Different issue, different policy decisions.

[awaken21]

It's not base on what everyone can pay, it's based on enough being able to pay the price. As usual though you've forgotten that there is no more middle class, there's mostly working poor who often have to choose between transportation, housing, food, clothing and medications because they can't afford them all.

All the market needs is a level playing field. It doesn't need to be allowed to race to the bottom.

[Wilson]

Did I say "everyone"?

Ah hell, why don't we just get a polibureau to set all the rates so
they're fair. That's the only thing that will ever satisfy you.

--
Wilson

[brian mitchell]

>Either you're misreading me, or I wrote poorly...

Not at all; you write with the broad clarity of a good technical manual. However, if you'll excuse
my saying so, you tend to read rather mechanically.

>I'm not saying "God did

>it" at all...

Why not? What would be wrong with saying that?

>for that matter the idea that all of "creation" ever came
>into existence, as opposed to having simply always existed, is one that

>it is not necessary to accept...

Can the always-existence of everything be directly experienced, or only concluded?

>> That's all fine by me. My only point was that order and chaos contain the seeds of each

>> other, as in the Yin/Yang symbol...

>Order and chaos don't contain the seeds of each other, they are separate

>and mutually exclusive...

That seems very much the case in your universe. In your universe, if a thing is up, it can't be
down; if it is in, it can't be out; if it is false, it can't be true.

As an alternative to that I offer you two expressions which are mutually inclusive and don't
contradict each other in the least:
never-before this moment;
never-not this moment.

>For that matter we (mankind) might as well be deaf and blind for all the

>information our physical senses give us...

So what is it that enables you to perceive supra-material causation?

[noname]

You sound like a Washington bureaucrat. Yawl let us know when you gots
it all fixed massuh.

[Wilson]

The idea that a free people need to be coerced like a herd of cattle or
managed like a natural resource by their government is a large part of
the problem.

--
Wilson