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Death is an Illusion...

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DSWGOS

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Jun 15, 2001, 3:10:15 AM6/15/01
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Death is an Illusion...when Form is Transformed from One Form to Another it
Gives the Illusion that Death has Occurred...but has It...?

PKHarvey

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Jun 15, 2001, 11:47:09 AM6/15/01
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In article <20010615031015...@ng-fl1.news.cs.com>, dsw...@cs.com
(DSWGOS) writes:

>Death is an Illusion...when Form is Transformed from One Form to Another it
>Gives the Illusion that Death has Occurred...but has It...?

Show me this "It."

P.K.

DT

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Jun 15, 2001, 2:43:30 PM6/15/01
to
PKHarvey wrote:
>
> Show me this "It."

Cousin. Short guy, long hair from the top of his head to the floor.

Dale

DSWGOS

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Jun 16, 2001, 5:55:16 AM6/16/01
to
P.K. ...which "It" would You Be Speaking of...?

PKHarvey

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Jun 16, 2001, 2:11:59 PM6/16/01
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In article <20010616055516...@ng-fl1.news.cs.com>, dsw...@cs.com
(DSWGOS) writes:

*This* It.

P.K.

DSWGOS

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Jun 17, 2001, 4:21:10 AM6/17/01
to
And there IT is...!

>*This* It.
>
>P.K.
>


PKHarvey

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Jun 17, 2001, 11:58:01 AM6/17/01
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In article <20010617042110...@ng-ff1.news.cs.com>, dsw...@cs.com
(DSWGOS) writes:

Which "there" would you be speaking of?

P.K.

bonfils

unread,
Jun 18, 2001, 4:20:55 AM6/18/01
to
PK:
>>>*This* It.

DSWGOS
>>And there IT is...!

PK:


>Which "there" would you be speaking of?

(No wonder Monty Python has such a devout following in this group. Ni!
Ni! Ni!)


Bonfils
--
http://kim.bonfils.com
To send me a massage, first remove your.underwear.
Thank you

fredrock

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Jun 19, 2001, 7:27:34 PM6/19/01
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bonfils <k...@your.underwear.bonfils.com> wrote in message
news:3b2db996...@news.tele.dk...

> PK:
> >>>*This* It.
>
> DSWGOS
> >>And there IT is...!
>
> PK:
> >Which "there" would you be speaking of?
>
> (No wonder Monty Python has such a devout following in this group.
Ni!
> Ni! Ni!)
>
>
> Bonfils

No they don't.

Fred


bonfils

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Jun 19, 2001, 7:43:51 PM6/19/01
to
>> PK:
>> >>>*This* It.
>>
>> DSWGOS
>> >>And there IT is...!
>>
>> PK:
>> >Which "there" would you be speaking of?

bonfils:


>> (No wonder Monty Python has such a devout following in this group.
>Ni!
>> Ni! Ni!)

fredrock:
>No they don't.

I'm sorry. I'm not allowed to argue unless you pay.

---
"If you love someone, set them free. If they come home, set them on fire."
- George Carlin

L. S. Clossey

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Jun 30, 2001, 5:51:25 AM6/30/01
to
In article <tenqjtg9bfeqi0mpr...@4ax.com>,
droll <dro...@home.com> wrote:
[...]

>(oh no, instead of turtles, it's 'its' all the way down?)

Usually I just accept not understanding absfg stuff as natural, but "turtles all the way
down" keeps reappearing, and I've never understood what it meant. Is it a Teenage Mutant
Ninja thing? Help!

Luke

nubil...@ewranglers.com

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Jun 30, 2001, 8:23:23 AM6/30/01
to
Luke:

>Usually I just accept not understanding absfg stuff as natural,
>but "turtles all the way
>down" keeps reappearing, and I've never understood what it meant.

It is part of the lore. Quoting:

Nova Spivak, June 26, 1994

I don't care how many levels of reality you posit, as soon you posit
even one, it's turtles all the way down.


Brian Drummond

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Jun 30, 2001, 8:41:13 AM6/30/01
to

It's explained in the FAQ.

- Brian

(has anyone SEEN the FAQ in the last couple of years?)

Brian Drummond

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Jun 30, 2001, 9:29:48 AM6/30/01
to

Hmmm, the canonical text http://www.epix.net/~alf/absfg/FAQ has
disappeared...

but "absfg FAQ" in google reveals a massive ... 32 .. hits, so it
doesn't take long to find
http://www.stumbles.org/John/rec/buddha.html
and
http://web.kiva.net/~ahosey/absfg/
and sundry other delights ( as well as the usual crop of dead links ...

Question for Ms. Hat ... what's up with
habbakuk.uchicago.edu/~chulbe/absfg ????
dead ... but not forgotten

all conditioned dharmas are impermanent
(sigh)
- Brian


- Brian

nubil...@ewranglers.com

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Jun 30, 2001, 10:54:02 AM6/30/01
to
Brian:

>Question for Ms. Hat ... what's up with
>habbakuk.uchicago.edu/~chulbe/absfg ????

Good question. I can telnet to the machine but no web serving
any more. The guy in whose office the machine resides is no
help, it is sailing season and all he replies is "they put up
a firewall." The administrator of the machine is out of the
country and otherwise out of contact as well. In a few months
that machine will be winging its way to Portland (there to
meet me) and things may get better after that. Or maybe not.
In the meantime, try the (out of date) archive. I've got
stuff to add to it but no time to do it.

http://www.ewranglers.com/~johan/absfg/absfg.html

Though I must confess that El Dupree's TexMex Cantina has
been shuttered for a while. In the time I was away from
absfg, I did my best to maintain the list of B'ist links
but that finally fell away and sometime thereafter I removed
the link to it from my (now inaccessible) home page. A very
pathetic story, indeed.

Tina :)

Pete Watters

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Jun 30, 2001, 10:56:44 AM6/30/01
to
Brian writes:

Check the sig below.

Pete

--
"Helping take the harm out of dharma."
absfg faq -- http://members.home.net/watters/faq.html
ab...@home.com

cupcake

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Jun 30, 2001, 11:19:52 AM6/30/01
to

nubile wrote:

you gawd damned a.b.s.f.g'ers are worse than the gawd damned
bolsheviks! (ie. saying you invented everything under the sun!)
(what you people need is a little more than the 4th grade
education you've got!)

"it's turtles, all the way down" happens to be a very famous
anectdote in the scientific community --

the story is attributed to Bertrand Russell:

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a
public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around
the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast
collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a
little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you
have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported
on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile
before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very
clever, young man, very clever,"said the old lady. "But it's turtles
all the way down."


hope this helps

(but i don't think anything's gonna help
you little bozos!)

Ned Ludd

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Jun 30, 2001, 12:25:22 PM6/30/01
to
<nubil...@ewranglers.com> wrote in message
news:9hkgbr$rbs$1...@news.skycache.com...

Droll:


>> (oh no, instead of turtles, it's 'its' all the way down?)

Luke:


> Usually I just accept not understanding absfg stuff as natural,
> but "turtles all the way down" keeps reappearing, and I've never

> understood what it meant. Is it a Teenage Mutant Ninja thing?
> Help!

Tina:


> It is part of the lore. Quoting:
> Nova Spivak, June 26, 1994
> I don't care how many levels of reality you posit, as soon you
> posit even one, it's turtles all the way down.
>

Also (from the archive):

Thus have I heard, that there was this young, eager, enthusiastic
physicist (someone sorta like John Barrow) who once gave a talk to
a bunch of lay people where he explained the latest theory of the
origins of the universe and how scientists understand the universe
was probably created. At the end of the lecture, an old lady got
up and told the professor: "That's all very nicely said, young man.
But actually, the world rests on the back of a turtle. That's all
there is to it."

The professor, just to humor the lady, asked, "And what does that
turtle rest on?"

She said, "Why, it rests on the back of a bigger turtle!"

The professor thought that he had her now. "And _what_ does this
bigger turtle rest on?"

She had the final word, though. "Young man," she said, "it's turtles
all the way down."

---

Which became, on a.b.s.f.g.:

"I don't care how many levels of reality you posit, as soon

as you posit even one, it's turtles all the way down."

- Nova Spivak, June 26, 1994

----------

And also:

----------------------------------------------------------------

I've got a comparative translation post in the works (3 versions of
the same text). It seems that Avalokiteshvara is a symbiont of Vishnu
and Shiva....

Cheers,
Toshu

now i have not used the words "corruption of buddhism into brahmanism".
yet i guess it is necessary to make a small disclaimer. Zen has been
influenced by Tantrism also, especially in regard to ritual. one of the
top 3 sutras recited is the Dai Hi Shin Dharani. it has been translated
into English by DT Suzuki. there is a study by Lokesh Chandra that
permits a fuller translation and explication of the meaning of this
dharani. essentially it is a formula for incorporating Harihara (a
Hindu deity which is a left-right symbiont of Vishnu and Shiva) into
Avalokiteshvara. so if someone wants to make a case for corruption out
of that, fine. yet the view in zen is pretty clearly "no turtles, no
basis of any sort".

----------------------------------------------------------------


And also:

From: mink...@bigfoot.com (Mr. Minkfoot)
Newsgroups: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy
Subject: Re: Hey, Gordon quoted us!
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 19:45:23 -0500

In article <6qla5f$1...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, ned...@ix.netcom.com(Ned
Ludd) wrote:

} Hey, Gordon just quoted us over on alt.pomo.
}
} At least I think it was us. Does anyone know if the expression
} "turtles all the way down" is in wide circulation in any areas
} of philosophy or religious discussion elsewhere on the net?

Sorry, Ned. The phrase's current popularity is due to Ken Wilber, who
quotes the story of the king asking the wise man what the world rests on
in *Sex, Ecology, Spritiuality*. The story has wide mythic applicability,
as is obvious from absfg own appropriation of it. Wilber's main use of it,
at least in the beginning, is concerning his holon theory. Roughly, a
holon is any unit of existence, having the property of being both composed
of parts, and also part of something greater. Wilber believes there is no
end in either direction, hence, "turtles all the way down." All the way
up, too.

---Mr. Minkfoot

----------


And also:

From: ned...@ix.netcom.com(Ned Ludd)
Newsgroups: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy
Subject: Wow, turtles everywhere! (was: Hey, Gordon quoted us!)
Date: 10 Aug 1998 02:29:55 GMT

In <minkfoot-090...@ip1.isdn6-boston.ma.pub-ip.psi.net>
mink...@bigfoot.com (Mr. Minkfoot) writes:

Ned wrote:
>> Hey, Gordon just quoted us over on alt.pomo.
>> At least I think it was us. Does anyone know if the expression
>> "turtles all the way down" is in wide circulation in any areas
>> of philosophy or religious discussion elsewhere on the net?

Mr. Minkfoot:
> Sorry, Ned. The phrase's current popularity is due to Ken Wilber, who
> quotes the story of the king asking the wise man what the world rests
> on in *Sex, Ecology, Spritiuality*.
>

Wow! This is incredible. "Turtles All the Way Down" is all over
the Net! I just put the search phrase "turtles all the way" into
Deja News.

There were 21 hits!

Here's the first 20:

<input type="text" value="turtles all the way"

Date Subject Newsgroup Author

1. 98/08/09 Re: Hey, Gordon quoted us! alt.buddha.short.fat lisa
2. 98/08/09 Hey, Gordon quoted us! alt.buddha.short.fat Ned Ludd
3. 98/08/08 Confounded novelist misc.writing Richard M
4. 98/08/08 Re: Barbapapa alt.slack truwe
5. 98/08/08 Re: Dear SubGenius Answer alt.slack truwe
6. 98/08/08 Re: Christianity for Skept nz.soc.religion D J Macle
7. 98/08/08 Re: Confounded novelist misc.writing dogseatsp
8. 98/08/08 Small Request alt.slack truwe
9. 98/08/08 Re: An Incomplete Subgeniu alt.slack truwe
10. 98/07/21 Re: The Bluff alt.dreams.castaneda LocalFolk
11. 98/08/08 Re: xday 2, the sequel ide alt.slack truwe
12. 98/08/07 Re: Newsgroups alt.fan.devo truwe
13. 98/07/24 Re: Neutron Turtles alt.buddha.short.fat Caitlin
14. 98/07/28 Re: Ontological Ambiguity? alt.psychology.nlp James Mal
15. 98/07/25 Re: What is socialism? alt.politics.british Lepore
16. 98/07/25 Re: Neutron Turtles alt.buddha.short.fat Alf the P
17. 98/07/24 Re: Neutron Turtles alt.buddha.short.fat Caitlin
18. 98/07/23 Re: Neutron Turtles alt.buddha.short.fat Lawn Boy
19. 98/07/22 Re: Evolution. alt.atheism jeremy ho
20. 98/07/19 Re: Another Transitional F alt.atheism Brian Wes


And here's an example of one of the posts. This is the 3rd on the
above list:

----
Subject: Confounded novelist
From: ric...@milton.win-uk.net (Richard Milton)
Date: 1998/08/08
Message-ID: <14...@milton.win-uk.net>
Newsgroups: misc.writing

Heard a good one recently about Henry James.

He was at a literary party and was cornered by a little
old lady who took him to task for his belief in
new-fangled scientific ideas, especially the idea that
the Earth is just a ball spining in space.

"How do you suppose the Earth is supported then, madam?"
he asked.

"Why it's held up by four elephants standing on the back
of a giant turtle".

Seeing an opportunity of leading her to a more rational
understanding, James replied, "And perhaps you can tell
us what is holding up the turtle?"

"Oh, no, Mister James. You won't catch me out that way.
It's <B>turtles all the way</B> down!"

Richard (careful what you stand on) Milton

----------

Ed. note - Re the above, Alf (the real Alf) wrote that the Richard
Milton version was the first one he heard:

From: a...@questionable.mindless.com (Alf the Poet)
Newsgroups: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy
Subject: Re: Wow, turtles everywhere! (was: Hey, Gordon quoted us!)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 00:45:49 GMT

ned...@ix.netcom.com(Ned Ludd) posted:
[smip]
:Heard a good one recently about Henry James.

[snip]

This is the one I first heard, several years ago.

Alf

----------


And also:

From: ned...@ix.netcom.com(Ned Ludd)
Newsgroups: alt.buddha.short.fat.guy
Subject: Re: Wow, turtles everywhere!
Date: 10 Aug 1998 19:34:57 GMT

In <35d331a7...@news.demon.co.uk> br...@shapes.demon.co.uk (Brian
Drummond) writes:
>
> looks like it's "Turtles all the way down" all the way down!
>

Still, it's quite a series of turtles...


Nova Spivak, in a.b.s.f.g FAQ

Ken Wilber, in "Sex, Ecology, Spritiuality".

Henry James, reported by Richard Milton

Carl Sagan, in a class (of Arthur's) on Madhyamika at Karme Choleng

Clifford Geertz in "Interpretations of Culture", from David Patterson

Reader's Digest (~10 years ago), Bucky Fulller and a little old lady,
from Wally.

Ned

P.S. And from Lisa in email (excerpt):
...
> So Yertle, the Turtle King, lifted his hand
> And Yertle, the Turtle King, gave a command.
> He ordered nine turtles to swim to his stone
> And, using these turtles, he built a new throne.
> He made each turtle stand on another one's back
> And he piled them all up in a nine-turtle stack.
> And then Yertle climbed up. He sat down on the pile.
> What a wonderful view! He could see 'most a mile!
...
- Dr. Seuss

----------


cupcake

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Jun 30, 2001, 12:38:56 PM6/30/01
to

well... i wanted to mention yertle the turtle, too,
but, i couldn't find the exact reference -- so! thanks
for the assist, ned thud -- your scholarliness and
intellectual integrity remain impekkerable!


jelich

unread,
Jun 30, 2001, 5:45:57 PM6/30/01
to

Ned Ludd wrote:

>
> P.S. And from Lisa in email (excerpt):
> ...
> > So Yertle, the Turtle King, lifted his hand
> > And Yertle, the Turtle King, gave a command.
> > He ordered nine turtles to swim to his stone
> > And, using these turtles, he built a new throne.
> > He made each turtle stand on another one's back
> > And he piled them all up in a nine-turtle stack.
> > And then Yertle climbed up. He sat down on the pile.
> > What a wonderful view! He could see 'most a mile!
> ...
> - Dr. Seuss
>
> ----------

There, finally, the reference I was looking for (before I opened my mouth and
mentioned it.

Speaking of discworld, ... nah, never mind. What's the latest news from Ankh
Mor Pork?

Beth

nubil...@ewranglers.com

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Jun 30, 2001, 6:14:38 PM6/30/01
to
cupcake:

> you gawd damned a.b.s.f.g'ers are worse than the gawd damned
> bolsheviks! (ie. saying you invented everything under the sun!)

Uh, where'd anyone say that?

Relax. Have a cigar.

Tina :) (payaso pequen~o)


Ned Ludd

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Jun 30, 2001, 7:15:06 PM6/30/01
to
jelich <jelic...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3B3E4BE3...@my-deja.com...

Well, Beth, I'm completely stumped.

Ned

jelich

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Jun 30, 2001, 9:09:16 PM6/30/01
to

Ned Ludd wrote:

Uhm, books are in boxes, I don't remember the authors name, he
wrote/writes a series of stories that take place on "discworld" (a flat
world held up by elephants on the back of a giant turtle swimming through
space). Very humorous. And nothing is quite what it seems.

Beth

Mr. Minkfoot

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Jul 1, 2001, 12:49:41 AM7/1/01
to
In article <9hk7et$79g$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,

clo...@socrates.Berkeley.EDU (L. S. Clossey) wrote:

It's from Ken Kesey.

No, I'm sorry . . . make that the other Ken.

A Maharaj once called his court metaphysician to him and said,

"I understand that the world rests on the back of four noble elephants."

"That is so,Your Majesty!"

"And that the four noble elephants rest on the back of a giant turtle."

"That is so,Your Majesty!"

"Then what does the giant turtle rest upon?'

"It rests upon another giant turtle, Sire!"

"Then what does that giant turtle rest upon?"

(heaving a bit of a sigh) "It rests upon yet another great turtle, Your
Supreme Lordship!"

(thinking a little bit) "But then, what does that . . . ?"

"Hold it, Your Majesty! It's turtles all the way down!"

Some post-modern thinkers make this out to be a general principle. Kind of
like, "Yes, there is an ultimate diviisible atom."

So, when someone asks you, "What is the ultimate made of?" you can
confidently answer "it is made of its constituents!"

---Mr. Minkfoot

Boris Fuller

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Jul 1, 2001, 6:13:50 AM7/1/01
to

"jelich" <jelic...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:3B3E7B8A...@my-deja.com...

Terry Pratchett.

Boris


L. S. Clossey

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Jul 2, 2001, 5:32:56 AM7/2/01
to
>Droll:
>>> (oh no, instead of turtles, it's 'its' all the way down?)
>
>Luke:
>> Usually I just accept not understanding absfg stuff as natural,
>> but "turtles all the way down" keeps reappearing, and I've never
>> understood what it meant. Is it a Teenage Mutant Ninja thing?
>> Help!

[snipping everything I've ever wanted to know about cosmology and turtles]

Many thanks! Everything crystal clear (hate it when that happens). I'm
tempted to ask the meaning of life, but I'm greatly afeared that Ned would
find it in the archive somewhere....

Apropos nothing, that nice John Muir is going back to the library today,
but he asked me to pass this along (from the Mountains of California):

"To the timid traveler, fresh from the sedimentary levels of the lowlands,
these highways, however picturesque and grand, seem terribly
forbidding--cold, dead, gloomy gashes in the bones of the mountains, and
of all Nature's ways the ones to be most cautiously avoided. Yet they are
full of the finest and most telling examples of Nature's love; and though
hard to travel, none are safer. For they lead through regions that lie
far above the ordinary haunts of the devil, and of pestilence that walks
in darkness. True, there are innumerable places where the careless step
will be the last step; and a rock falling from the cliffs may crush
without warning like lightning from the sky; but what then? Accidents in
the mountains are less common than in the lowlands, and these moutain
mansions are decent, delightful, even divine places to die in, compared
with the dolefulchambers of civilization. Few places in this world are
more dangerous than home. Fear not, therefore to try the mountain
passes. They will kill care, save you from deadly apathy, set you free,
and call forth every faculty into vigorous, enthusiastic action. Even the
sick should try these so-called dangerous passes, because for every
unfortunate they kill, they cure a thousand."

Luke

Ned Ludd

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Jul 2, 2001, 10:14:37 AM7/2/01
to
L. S. Clossey <clo...@socrates.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:9hpf48$2fpu$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...

>
>Droll:
>>> (oh no, instead of turtles, it's 'its' all the way down?)
>
>Luke:
>> Usually I just accept not understanding absfg stuff as natural,
>> but "turtles all the way down" keeps reappearing, and I've never
>> understood what it meant. Is it a Teenage Mutant Ninja thing?
>> Help!

Luke:


>[snipping everything I've ever wanted to know about cosmology and
> turtles]
> Many thanks! Everything crystal clear (hate it when that happens).
> I'm tempted to ask the meaning of life, but I'm greatly afeared that
> Ned would find it in the archive somewhere....
>

At this moment the King, who had been for some time busily writing
in his note-book, called out "Silence!" and read out from his book,
"Rule Forty-two. ALL PERSONS MORE THAN A MILE HIGH TO LEAVE THE COURT."
...
"Well, I shan't go, at any rate," said Alice; "besides, that's not
a regular rule: you invented it just now."
"It's the oldest rule in the book," said the King.
"Then it ought to be Number One," said Alice.


> Apropos nothing, that nice John Muir is going back to the library today,
> but he asked me to pass this along (from the Mountains of California):
> "To the timid traveler, fresh from the sedimentary levels of the
> lowlands, these highways, however picturesque and grand, seem terribly
> forbidding--cold, dead, gloomy gashes in the bones of the mountains,
> and of all Nature's ways the ones to be most cautiously avoided. Yet
> they are full of the finest and most telling examples of Nature's
> love; and though hard to travel, none are safer. For they lead through
> regions that lie far above the ordinary haunts of the devil, and of
> pestilence that walks in darkness. True, there are innumerable places
> where the careless step will be the last step; and a rock falling from
> the cliffs may crush without warning like lightning from the sky; but
> what then? Accidents in the mountains are less common than in the
> lowlands, and these moutain mansions are decent, delightful, even divine
> places to die in, compared with the dolefulchambers of civilization.
> Few places in this world are more dangerous than home. Fear not,
> therefore to try the mountain passes. They will kill care, save you
> from deadly apathy, set you free, and call forth every faculty into
> vigorous, enthusiastic action. Even the sick should try these so-called
> dangerous passes, because for every unfortunate they kill, they cure a
> thousand."
>

There is a man who just doesn't GET the idea of cities.

Ned


DT

unread,
Jul 2, 2001, 10:59:00 AM7/2/01
to
jelich wrote:
>
> Speaking of discworld, ... nah, never mind. What's the latest news from Ankh
> Mor Pork?

'Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, But set fire to him and
he's warm for the rest of his life.'

"Ankh morpork" turns up over 6,000 hits; "turtles all the way down" only
1140. This proves that there is more interest in the fictional
"Discworld" than in true cosmology.

Jeeeez! "Terry Pratchett" turns up over 56 THOUSAND hits! I like his
books, but this is ridiculous!

Dale

bonfils

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Jul 2, 2001, 3:43:47 PM7/2/01
to
On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 09:32:56 +0000 (UTC), clo...@socrates.Berkeley.EDU
(L. S. Clossey) wrote:

>Many thanks! Everything crystal clear (hate it when that happens).

Don't worry. It won't last long...

Rod

unread,
Jul 2, 2001, 10:34:25 PM7/2/01
to
the world ( or was it all of every bit of creation) was on a great
turtle..and some old lady in mythology was asked but whats below the
turtle..hence it's turtles all the way down.

----------
In article <9hkgbr$rbs$1...@news.skycache.com>, nubil...@ewranglers.com
wrote:

L. S. Clossey

unread,
Jul 3, 2001, 4:15:07 AM7/3/01
to
In article <9hpvl4$95b$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>,
Ned Ludd <ned...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> At this moment the King, who had been for some time busily writing
>in his note-book, called out "Silence!" and read out from his book,
>"Rule Forty-two. ALL PERSONS MORE THAN A MILE HIGH TO LEAVE THE COURT."
>...
> "Well, I shan't go, at any rate," said Alice; "besides, that's not
>a regular rule: you invented it just now."
> "It's the oldest rule in the book," said the King.
> "Then it ought to be Number One," said Alice.

Which just leads to more questions:

1. Why have I never read this book? (If the excerpts I've seen are twice
as good as the rest of the book... the rest of the book would be half as
good as the excerpts...)

2. How outraged should you be if someone calls you a Jungian
archetype? (Last night the Polish Poet that lives in the basement (every
monastery should have one) called me this very thing. I tried reading
about Jung, but I'm all like, This is confusing! so I stopped. I don't
really need to know what an archetype is, just whether or not I should
slap the Poet or not.)

3. Was there not an El Dupree story where Don whatshisname calls the
Driftless Shifter himself a Jungian archetype? Or am I thinking of an
episode of the A-Team (still on German TV!)

Hopefully a newbie will stumble in and need some questions to be
answered...

[hacking out John Muir passage with a chainsaw]

> There is a man who just doesn't GET the idea of cities.

I am increasingly coming to understand that cities are evil. Fascinating,
no small fun, useful, but tools of the devil. Too many people that walk
by without saluting you and saying howdy-do!

Luke

L. S. Clossey

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Jul 3, 2001, 4:27:42 AM7/3/01
to
Luke:

>>Many thanks! Everything crystal clear (hate it when that happens).

bonfils:


>Don't worry. It won't last long...

Lordy, ain't that the truth.

Waitasecond, you're one of those European people, aren't you? I'm
trying to become an EU member state (so I can stop worrying about visas),
and maybe you'd have some tips about what would be likely to impress the
Commission? I'm including my draft letter below. Do you think I should
include a photo? (In my x-country golf photo I'm wearing a hat and
sunglasses, which nicely obscure the fact that I'm uglier than homemade
sin.)

Luke

European Commission
200 rue de la Loi/Wetstraat 200
B-1049 Brussels
Belgium

Dear sir or madam,

I am writing to request admission to the European Union.

For the past several weeks I have worked actively to fulfill the political
and economic requirements outlined at the 1993 Copenhagen European
Council. I have made impressive recent strides towards strengthening
my support of democracy and human rights. My finances are in good order, and
I believe I will be able to learn successfully to deal with market
forces within the European Union. My administrative institutions are
relatively modest, and thus should prove capable of easy adaptation to the
provisions of the Amsterdam Treaty.

I would appreciate any information you could give me regarding the
continuation of this process.

Yours,
Luke Clossey

Manleyman

unread,
Jul 3, 2001, 8:08:10 AM7/3/01
to
Oh I haven't laughed so hard in years. You need to leave the
monastery and go to work with Mel Brookes.

(Look! I have an official looking seal and EVERYTHING!)

Ned Ludd

unread,
Jul 3, 2001, 9:47:48 AM7/3/01
to
L. S. Clossey <clo...@socrates.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:9hruub$18l7$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...

Ned (quoting the good Rev. Dodgson):


> At this moment the King, who had been for some time busily writing
> in his note-book, called out "Silence!" and read out from his book,
> "Rule Forty-two. ALL PERSONS MORE THAN A MILE HIGH TO LEAVE THE COURT."
> ...
> "Well, I shan't go, at any rate," said Alice; "besides, that's not
> a regular rule: you invented it just now."
> "It's the oldest rule in the book," said the King.
> "Then it ought to be Number One," said Alice.

Luke:


> Which just leads to more questions:
> 1. Why have I never read this book? (If the excerpts I've seen are
> twice as good as the rest of the book... the rest of the book would
> be half as good as the excerpts...)
>

-----

"I should like to buy an egg, please," she said timidly. "How do
you sell them?"

"Fivepence farthing for one - twopence for two," the Sheep replied.

"Then two are cheaper than one?" Alice said in a surprised tone,
taking out her purse.

"Only you must eat them both, if you buy two," said the Sheep.

-----

> 2. How outraged should you be if someone calls you a Jungian
> archetype? (Last night the Polish Poet that lives in the basement
> (every monastery should have one) called me this very thing. I
> tried reading about Jung, but I'm all like, This is confusing! so
> I stopped. I don't really need to know what an archetype is, just
> whether or not I should slap the Poet or not.)
>

Always slap a poet. (And mention that it's a damn good thing
he wasn't a mime.)

I have no information on Jungian Archetypes. I suspect that
the poet was complimenting you. Or calling you the Antichrist.
You can never really tell with poets.

> 3. Was there not an El Dupree story where Don whatshisname calls
> the Driftless Shifter himself a Jungian archetype? Or am I thinking
> of an episode of the A-Team (still on German TV!)
>

I pity the fool who would address the Obese One in suchwise.

> Hopefully a newbie will stumble in and need some questions to be
> answered...
> [hacking out John Muir passage with a chainsaw]
>> There is a man who just doesn't GET the idea of cities.
> I am increasingly coming to understand that cities are evil.
> Fascinating, no small fun, useful, but tools of the devil. Too
> many people that walk by without saluting you and saying howdy-do!
>

Hats. The whole thing fell apart when hats disappeared.

Ned


bonfils

unread,
Jul 3, 2001, 10:12:17 AM7/3/01
to
On Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:15:07 +0000 (UTC), clo...@socrates.Berkeley.EDU
(L. S. Clossey) wrote:

>Which just leads to more questions:
>
>1. Why have I never read this book? (If the excerpts I've seen are twice
>as good as the rest of the book... the rest of the book would be half as
>good as the excerpts...)

Be warned: Some psychologists supposedly takes a love of "Alice in
Wonderland" as an indication of homosexuality in males.
(I must be the exception to that rule...)

>2. How outraged should you be if someone calls you a Jungian
>archetype?

Dunno, but fell free to call whoever says that a Jungian (in any other
situation that's a insult!)

>(Last night the Polish Poet that lives in the basement (every
>monastery should have one) called me this very thing. I tried reading
>about Jung, but I'm all like, This is confusing! so I stopped.

Good for you.

>I don't
>really need to know what an archetype is, just whether or not I should
>slap the Poet or not.)

Easy: Poets should be slapped frequentlty. And don't forget to call
him a Jungian...

>[hacking out John Muir passage with a chainsaw]
>
>> There is a man who just doesn't GET the idea of cities.
>
>I am increasingly coming to understand that cities are evil. Fascinating,
>no small fun, useful, but tools of the devil. Too many people that walk
>by without saluting you and saying howdy-do!

There's *another* who doesn't get the idea!
Avoiding the freakin' howdy-dooding is exactly the point!


Bonfils
--

DT

unread,
Jul 3, 2001, 10:10:40 AM7/3/01
to
"L. S. Clossey" wrote:
>
> I don't really need to know what an archetype is....

Dinosaur, sorta like a feathered pterodactyl. See:
http://origins.swau.edu/fossil/dino/arch/ . Didn't know Jung had one,
thought they were extinct.

> 3. Was there not an El Dupree story where Don whatshisname calls the
> Driftless Shifter himself a Jungian archetype? Or am I thinking of an
> episode of the A-Team (still on German TV!)

Oh, yeah? Well, archetype *this*, sucka! Mr. T was hilarious, but I
always felt an....affinity with H.M. Murdoch.

> Too many people that walk
> by without saluting you and saying howdy-do!

I once passed an older couple in a narrow motel hallway and said, "Good
morning!" They both gave me a look that said, "we don't know what
you're up to, but you ain't getting over on *us*!"

Dale

bonfils

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Jul 3, 2001, 10:21:32 AM7/3/01
to
On Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:27:42 +0000 (UTC), clo...@socrates.Berkeley.EDU
(L. S. Clossey) wrote:

>Waitasecond, you're one of those European people, aren't you? I'm
>trying to become an EU member state (so I can stop worrying about visas),
>and maybe you'd have some tips about what would be likely to impress the
>Commission? I'm including my draft letter below. Do you think I should
>include a photo? (In my x-country golf photo I'm wearing a hat and
>sunglasses, which nicely obscure the fact that I'm uglier than homemade
>sin.)
>
>Luke

<snip application>

Hm, doesn't look worse than those friggin' Baltic states (Estonia,
Latvia, Lithuania) trying to get in these days. I'd rather have Luke.

But have you considered becoming a citizen of the global state NSK?

http://www.kud-fp.si/embassy/2a/pas.htm


Bonfils
--

nubil...@ewranglers.com

unread,
Jul 3, 2001, 12:41:26 PM7/3/01
to
Ned (aobut Muir):

>> There is a man who just doesn't GET the idea of cities.

Luke:


>I am increasingly coming to understand that cities are evil. Fascinating,
>no small fun, useful, but tools of the devil. Too many people that walk

Mmm. So what are you going to do with all the folks who now
live stacked up like cordwood in the cities? Spread them evenly
across the wilderness that Muir so loved (along with the roads,
electrical lines, sewer lines, and video stores to sustain them)?

There is evil in cities, I agree, but it is a symptom of larger
problems.

>by without saluting you and saying howdy-do!

FWIW, people met by chance along the city neighborhood streets I used
to roam were much friendlier and more likely to say "hey, how's it
going?" than people in most of the suburban areas where I've lived.
Though I must acknowledge that my perception of that Chicago
south-side neighborhood is quite different from some aquaintance's
perceptions.

Tina :)

Pete Watters

unread,
Jul 3, 2001, 7:15:29 PM7/3/01
to
Ned writes:

[snip]

> Always slap a poet. (And mention that it's a damn good thing
> he wasn't a mime.)

Ned's only regret is that he wasn't alive at a time that he could slap Emily.

Pete (i'll leave "where" to your imaginations...)

William Hursthouse

unread,
Jul 4, 2001, 2:36:36 AM7/4/01
to
Tina:-)

>FWIW, people met by chance along the city neighborhood streets I used
>to roam were much friendlier and more likely to say "hey, how's it
>going?" than people in most of the suburban areas where I've lived.
>Though I must acknowledge that my perception of that Chicago
>south-side neighborhood is quite different from some aquaintance's
>perceptions.
>

And there is a very simple explanation for that, although you might
not like it: you were young, attractive, femaIe, and self-confident:
all characteristics guarentteed to elicit friendly repsonses from
pretty well *everybody*!

LOVED the story BTW. Saved it, printed it out, and read it all in one
go at lunch today. Really shit hot!! Some of the things I loved the
most: the way people didn't notice Azalea, the way Francisca's
strength developed, Pepito's love for Azelea.....well, the whole thing
basically!! Absolutely magic, thank you!!

William

L. S. Clossey

unread,
Jul 4, 2001, 2:33:43 AM7/4/01
to
In article <3b41cf75...@news.euroconnect.dk>,
bonfils <k...@your.underwear.bonfils.com> wrote:

>Be warned: Some psychologists supposedly takes a love of "Alice in
>Wonderland" as an indication of homosexuality in males.
>(I must be the exception to that rule...)

"Alice in Wonderland"? Surely that's a typo for that "Men's
Health" magazine. And if we mix the two:

"Would you like to have more hot sex?" asked the article.

"But I'm not having any hot sex," replied Alice. "I can't have more of
something I don't have any of in the first place."

"You mean you can't have _less_ of something you don't have any of," said
the article, smugly.

Luke

L. S. Clossey

unread,
Jul 4, 2001, 2:36:49 AM7/4/01
to
In article <3b41d2d4...@news.euroconnect.dk>,

bonfils <k...@your.underwear.bonfils.com> wrote:
>
>Hm, doesn't look worse than those friggin' Baltic states (Estonia,
>Latvia, Lithuania) trying to get in these days. I'd rather have Luke.

Thanks, I'll let you know if they want character references.

>But have you considered becoming a citizen of the global state NSK?
>
>http://www.kud-fp.si/embassy/2a/pas.htm

Looks fabulous, but those passports are so expensive! Wouldn't be easier
to choose an impoverished nation and sleep with its secretary of
state? (There's probably a website for that...)

Luke

L. S. Clossey

unread,
Jul 4, 2001, 2:58:52 AM7/4/01
to
In article <9hsiev$1pa$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>,
Ned Ludd <ned...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> Always slap a poet. (And mention that it's a damn good thing
>he wasn't a mime.)

On my last trip to Berlin I was crossing Alexanderplatz with my sis, and
some people were circulating a petition, which I misunderstood to be
anti-mime. I was marvelling how wonderful Berlin was, what to be
anti-mime and all, and the sis gives me a look and says, "It's
anti-MINE!" Then she mimed stepping on a mine and exploding.
(Though for the record we both think mines are yucky-yucky.)

After contemplating, I realized I can't slap him. He brings the booze to
the poetry recitals.

Luke

L. S. Clossey

unread,
Jul 4, 2001, 3:05:27 AM7/4/01
to
In article <3B41D260...@mail.utexas.edu>,
DT <d.ti...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:

>Dinosaur, sorta like a feathered pterodactyl. See:
>http://origins.swau.edu/fossil/dino/arch/ . Didn't know Jung had one,
>thought they were extinct.

Hmmm... "Archaeopterix represents an enigma of many sorts. It has a
definite reptilian body with socketed teeth and anapsid features of a
reptile." An enigma with socketet teeth? That's me, alright.

>Oh, yeah? Well, archetype *this*, sucka! Mr. T was hilarious, but I
>always felt an....affinity with H.M. Murdoch.

I'm not sure which character the Germans feel an ... affinity with, but
it's very popular here. When I lived in East Germany the best time to go
grocery shopping was when all the housewives would be home watching
Hogan's Heros.

The most popular American TV show here (after the Simpsons) seems to be
"Married With Children." Everyone knows Al Bundy, and you still see lots
of T-Shirts.

>I once passed an older couple in a narrow motel hallway and said, "Good
>morning!" They both gave me a look that said, "we don't know what
>you're up to, but you ain't getting over on *us*!"

So what _were_ you up to?

Luke

L. S. Clossey

unread,
Jul 4, 2001, 3:22:12 AM7/4/01
to
>Mmm. So what are you going to do with all the folks who now
>live stacked up like cordwood in the cities? Spread them evenly
>across the wilderness that Muir so loved (along with the roads,
>electrical lines, sewer lines, and video stores to sustain them)?

(shuffling feet) No, I guess not... Could they (including me) be taught
to live wihtout electrical lines and sewer lines? (I know better than to
ask about living without video stores...)

>FWIW, people met by chance along the city neighborhood streets I used
>to roam were much friendlier and more likely to say "hey, how's it
>going?" than people in most of the suburban areas where I've lived.

I usually don't get any reactions in suburbia, and cities seem to offer
extremely friendly and extremely unfriendly responses--like the gentleman
who reached into his jacket as if he had a gun and told me, "I'M GOING TO
KILL YOU M*T*HERFUC*E*!" (and he didn't use asterisks). Or the sublime,
like the homeless lad who threatened to call me "Leroy" if I didn't give
him $20. I got some 10 yards away before he started screaming
LEROY! after me.

I think I prefer deserts. There's so few people, even if you see someone
far, far away you give them a wave. So you get to connect with humanity
without having to deal with humanity (ha).

Luke

Ned Ludd

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Jul 4, 2001, 9:07:40 AM7/4/01
to
Pete Watters <ab...@home.com> wrote in message
news:absfg-03070...@cx543791-c.phnx2.az.home.com...

Ned:


>> Always slap a poet. (And mention that it's a damn good thing
>> he wasn't a mime.)

Pete:


> Ned's only regret is that he wasn't alive at a time that he could
> slap Emily.
> Pete (i'll leave "where" to your imaginations...)
>

Oh, man, I'd find whole new continents of places. Whole new
seas upon seas and shores upon shores. I wouldn't rest until
all the places were explored.

Ned


Ned Ludd

unread,
Jul 4, 2001, 9:21:24 AM7/4/01
to
L. S. Clossey <clo...@socrates.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:9huerc$k7$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...

>
>> Always slap a poet. (And mention that it's a damn good thing
>> he wasn't a mime.)
>
> On my last trip to Berlin I was crossing Alexanderplatz with my sis,
> and some people were circulating a petition, which I misunderstood
> to be anti-mime. I was marvelling how wonderful Berlin was, what
> to be anti-mime and all, and the sis gives me a look and says,
> "It's anti-MINE!" Then she mimed stepping on a mine and exploding.
> (Though for the record we both think mines are yucky-yucky.)
> After contemplating, I realized I can't slap him. He brings the
> booze to the poetry recitals.
>

Ah, poet-fuel. I would think Berlin would be anti-mime too.
Milwaukee had German socialist mayors for 50 or 60 years. Didn't
see too many mimes during those years, I bet. But now, with the
chaos of prosperity and enlightenment anything goes. Ve need a
gut oltvashioned liter who vill restore us to a mimeless Eden!

Imagine a time when there were no mimes...

Ned


nubil...@ewranglers.com

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Jul 4, 2001, 9:50:05 AM7/4/01
to
Tina:

>>FWIW, people met by chance along the city neighborhood streets I used
>>to roam were much friendlier and more likely to say "hey, how's it
>>going?" than people in most of the suburban areas where I've lived.

William


>And there is a very simple explanation for that, although you might
>not like it:

[explanation I don't like deleted]

So why not the same interaction in most suburbanish neighborhods?
Why not the same interaction in the hallways of the building where
I work now? I try my darndest to just get people to *smile* or
even look vaguely like they're living in the world of mortal beings.
65%+ of the time, you make eye contact and people become suddenly
interested in the quality of the floor tiles.

Thinking of that, of bridging gaps between people, I met a young woman
just recently who was able to do that. My interactions with her have
been just in passing, she was a checker at the local co-operative
grocery store. Tessa. We talked about this & that, and generally had
a very nice time as she tallied up my purchases. She struk me
immediately as a bright light.

Well, last night I went to a candlelight vigil for her. She was
murdered a month ago, multiple gunshots and dumped up in the
agricultural research center. The police haven't arrested anybody, as
far as I know, but a domestic dispute is suspected (boyfriend). She
was so young, just a year out of high school. In that short time
she'd touched a lot of people. She was a cheerleader *and* the first
(only?) female to play on the local high school football team. Her
friendships spanned generations.

So. The vigil was outside, in the town center. Lots of talk about
God but no priests, just people speaking as the spirit moved them.
Her old football coach sang a song, members of her family spoke,
her friends sang, read poems, and shared happy memories. The family's
neighborhood mail carrier guided the assembly in all of this. At the
end of this popular service, one of Tessa's aunts asked us all to do
something Tessa always did, to reach out and introduce ourselves to
somebody new.

I don't really have a way to wrap this all up. It was a senseless
murder, though in my opinion all murders are such. Tessa is just
one, we could name thousands every day the world around. No clever
cliche' is going to turn this into a good lesson, a story with a
moral or any other thing. It just is what it is. And even that's
a cheapening cliche'.

Tina :)


Mr. Minkfoot

unread,
Jul 4, 2001, 10:17:17 AM7/4/01