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What really went on inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid erupted

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Julian

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Jun 11, 2023, 6:00:04 AM6/11/23
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Fresh evidence drawn from confidential files reveals Chinese scientists
spliced together deadly pathogens shortly before the pandemic, the
Sunday Times Insight team report

Scientists in Wuhan working alongside the Chinese military were
combining the world’s most deadly coronaviruses to create a new mutant
virus just as the pandemic began.

Investigators who scrutinised top-secret intercepted communications and
scientific research believe Chinese scientists were running a covert
project of dangerous experiments, which caused a leak from the Wuhan
Institute of Virology and started the Covid-19 outbreak.

The US investigators say one of the reasons there is no published
information on the work is because it was done in collaboration with
researchers from the Chinese military, which was funding it and which,
they say, was pursuing bioweapons.

The Sunday Times has reviewed hundreds of documents, including
previously confidential reports, internal memos, scientific papers and
email correspondence that has been obtained through sources or by
freedom of information campaigners in the three years since the pandemic
started. We also interviewed the US State Department investigators —
including experts on China, emerging pandemic threats, and biowarfare —
who conducted the first significant US inquiry into the origins of the
Covid-19 outbreak.

Whether the virus emerged as a result of a leak from a laboratory or
from nature has become one the most controversial problems in science.
Researchers who have attempted to find conclusive proof have been
hampered by China’s lack of transparency.

However, our new investigation paints the clearest picture yet of what
happened in the Wuhan laboratory.

The facility, which had started hunting the origins of the Sars virus in
2003, attracted US government funding through a New York-based charity
whose president was a British-born and educated zoologist. America’s
leading coronavirus scientist shared cutting-edge virus manipulation
techniques.

The institute was engaged in increasingly risky experiments on
coronaviruses it gathered from bat caves in southern China. Initially,
it made its findings public and argued the associated risks were
justified because the work might help science develop vaccines.

This changed in 2016 after researchers discovered a new type of
coronavirus in a mineshaft in Mojiang in Yunnan province where people
had died from symptoms similar to Sars.

Rather than warning the world, the Chinese authorities did not report
the fatalities. The viruses found there are now recognised as the only
members of Covid-19’s immediate family known to have been in existence
pre-pandemic.

They were transported to the Wuhan institute and the work of its
scientists became classified. “The trail of papers starts to go dark,” a
US investigator said. “That’s exactly when the classified programme
kicked off. My view is that the reason Mojiang was covered up was due to
military secrecy related to [the army’s] pursuit of dual use
capabilities in virological biological weapons and vaccines.”

According to the US investigators, the classified programme was to make
the mineshaft viruses more infectious to humans.

They believe this led to the creation of the Covid-19 virus, and that it
leaked into the city of Wuhan after a laboratory accident. “It has
become increasingly clear that the Wuhan Institute of Virology was
involved in the creation, promulgation and cover-up of the Covid-19
pandemic,” one of the investigators said.

They found evidence that researchers working on these experiments were
taken to hospital with Covid-like symptoms in November 2019 — a month
before the West became aware of the pandemic — and one of their
relatives died.

An investigator said: “We were rock-solid confident that this was likely
Covid-19 because they were working on advanced coronavirus research in
the laboratory. They’re trained biologists in their thirties and
forties. Thirty-five-year-old scientists don’t get very sick with
influenza.”

Separate analysis shows the centre of the initial outbreak of Covid-19,
which has killed more than seven million people, was close to the
institute’s laboratory, rather than at the city’s “wet” wildlife market
as had been thought.

The US investigators also revealed how they had been given evidence
indicating the institute had been working on a vaccine before the
pandemic. “I interviewed scientists in Asia who have close relationships
with the Wuhan Institute of Virology,” the source said. “They told me it
is their belief that there was vaccine research going on in the fall of
2019, pertinent to Covid-19 vaccination.”

Foreign experts who have sought to identify the source of the pandemic
have been blocked from investigating by the Chinese state.

A team led by British bat expert Alice Hughes, who was an associate
professor at the Chinese Academy of Sciences, which oversees the Wuhan
institute, had been working in the mines. Hughes said she was barred
from speaking to the media about her research and was being watched by
China’s security service. The restrictions forced her to leave China and
move to Hong Kong.

The microbiologist Professor Richard Ebright, of Rutgers University’s
Waksman Institute of Microbiology, is a long-standing opponent of the
type of high-risk work undertaken at Wuhan.

He reviewed some of the experiments and describes them as “by far the
most reckless and dangerous research on coronaviruses — or indeed on any
viruses — known to have been undertaken at any time in any location”.

Experiment that diced with death: inside the Wuhan lab

In November 2002, farmers and food workers in the Chinese province of
Guangdong began to fall ill with severe respiratory symptoms. Medical
staff soon followed suit. The Sars virus spread rapidly through 29
countries, infecting 8,000 people and killing 774. It was the first
serious epidemic of the new century — and a wake-up call to scientists.

Sars was identified as a coronavirus, which until then had mostly caused
mild symptoms, such as a common cold. If it could mutate like this, so
could other viruses. A vaccine was needed.

The job of finding out how Sars had emerged was taken on by the Wuhan
Institute of Virology and its most famous scientist, 39-year-old Dr Shi
Zhengli. She and her team zoned in on bats, which had been linked to
other deadly viruses, such as rabies, nipah and marburg. She began
searching for bat colonies in caves in southern China in 2004, earning
her the nickname “Batwoman”. Faecal samples were sent back to Wuhan to
be tested for viruses.

They began conducting experiments with Sars and other viruses. Shi was
joined by a British bat expert, Dr Peter Daszak, who would become a
close friend and collaborator. Born in Dukinfield, near Manchester, he
obtained a degree in zoology at Bangor University and later moved to New
York, where he took a management position in the Wildlife Trust, a
non-profit organisation.
Its work protecting pets and endangered species did not attract
substantial funding. But after the September 11 terror attacks and the
Sars outbreak, the US began to see the importance of funding work
combatting bioterrorism and pandemics. The trust began to focus on how
viruses might cross from animals to people and spark a pandemic.

Shi’s team provided the fieldwork for the trust’s campaign and the
laboratories to test and experiment on the viruses. In 2009, the trust
was given $18 million over five years from a new programme, called
Predict, to identify pandemic viruses. Shortly afterwards, the trust was
rebranded as the EcoHealth Alliance and Daszak assumed the role of
president. The Chinese collaborators who helped put him on the map were
also rewarded: $1 million of the Predict grant was redirected to the
Wuhan institute.

Mice were “humanised” with genes that allowed them to develop lungs and
vascular systems similar to oursMice were “humanised” with genes that
allowed them to develop lungs and vascular systems similar to ours
Mice were “humanised” with genes that allowed them to develop lungs and
vascular systems similar to ours

Tests on humanised mice

The truly cutting-edge experiments were being done in the US by the
veteran virologist Ralph Baric at the University of North Carolina. He
used a technique to fuse together different pathogens by mixing their
genes. To test the effect of these lab-created mutant viruses on people,
he created “humanised” mice by injecting them with genes that allowed
them to develop lungs and vascular systems similar to ours. His ultimate
aim was to create a universal vaccine against Sars-type viruses — an
objective still not achieved.

Baric was aware this type of “gain of function” work, so-called because
it can enhance virus potency, was controversial and could have a
sinister application.

“Ominously, tools exist for simultaneously modifying the genomes for
increased virulence [and] transmissibility,” he had written in a 2006
paper. “These bioweapons could be targeted to humans, domesticated
animals or crops, causing a devastating impact on human civilisation.”

By 2012, campaigners and scientists were starting to wake up to the
profound risks inherent in coronavirus work. Lynn Klotz, a senior fellow
at the Centre for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation, in Washington,
called for research on live Sars coronaviruses to be stopped.

“About 30 labs now are working with live Sars virus worldwide. The
probability of escape from at least one laboratory is high,” Klotz wrote
in a co-authored article. “Would one in ten escapes lead to a major
outbreak or pandemic? One in a hundred? One in a thousand? No one knows.
But for any of these probabilities, the likelihood-weighted number of
victims and deaths would be intolerably high.”

Bioweapons warnings

In 2012, in a cave called Shitou in the remote mountains of Yunnan
province, southern China, Shi’s team made a breakthrough. They recovered
a virus that was the closest match to Sars of those found at the time.
They labelled it WIV1, using the initials of the institute, and
demonstrated through laboratory work that it was able to infect human cells.

But they were unable to grow sufficient quantities of a second Sars-like
virus found in the cave, labelled SHC014, to do similar tests.

Shi needed Baric’s expertise. She contacted him in 2013 and he agreed to
help. The Wuhan Institute provided Baric’s team with the genetic
sequence for SHC014 so he could recreate the genes from the microscopic
spikes that protrude from its sides. The American scientists then
inserted SHC014’s “spike gene” into a copy of the original Sars virus
Baric had created in his lab and tested the new mutant on his humanised
mice.

In May 2014, EcoHealth Alliance was awarded a $3.7 million publicly
funded grant by the US National Institutes of Health (NIH). More than
$500,000 of it went to the Wuhan lab for equipment and a further
$130,000 was spent chiefly on pay and benefits for Shi and her assistant.

Pressure was being exerted on the lab work, however. That year, Barack
Obama announced a moratorium on all gain-of-function experiments that
would be “reasonably anticipated” to increase a pathogen’s
infectiousness or lethality. This included Sars-related work.

It could have been the end of the Wuhan-North Carolina collaboration,
but a loophole allowed gain-of-function work to proceed if deemed urgent
and safe. Baric made the argument to the NIH, which gave approval.

The results of Baric’s experiment with the genetic sequence given to him
by Shi were published in co-authored research in November 2015. The
combined Sars copy and SHC014 virus was a potential mass killer. It
caused severe lung damage in humanised mice and was resistant to
vaccines developed for Sars. The paper acknowledged this might have been
an experiment that was too dangerous.

It caused a big stir. “If the virus escaped, nobody could predict the
trajectory,” warned Simon Wain-Hobson, a virologist at the Pasteur
Institute in Paris.

Safety fear at Wuhan labs

The Wuhan institute began stepping up its own lab work using Baric’s
techniques. It created two new mutants by fusing viruses with the WIV1
pathogen it had found in the Shitou cave. These experiments were
mentioned in Daszak’s progress report for the year to May 2016, which he
submitted to the US government funders. The same report disclosed the
institute planned to create an infectious version of the camel pathogen
Mers by combining it with bat viruses. Mers had killed 35 per cent of
people infected during a 2012 outbreak in Saudi Arabia.

This triggered alarm bells for the US government because it would have
involved the type of gain-of-function experiments that were still
barred. According to documents obtained by freedom of information
campaigners, Daszak argued the Mers experiment was not gain of function
because it was unlikely to make the virus more pathogenic. A compromise
was reached whereby the scientists would stop work and report to US
officials if they created a new mutant virus that grew ten times faster
than the natural virus it was created from.

That same year, Daszak announced to a New York conference that Shi was
moving “closer and closer” to obtaining a virus “that could really
become pathogenic in people”.

By 2017, according to a paper published by Shi, her scientists had
sought to create eight mutant viruses from the Sars-like coronaviruses
found in the Shitou cave. Two of the mutant viruses were found to infect
human cells. Most of this work was carried out in the institute’s
biosafety level 2 (BSL-2) laboratories, which took only light
precautions that have been compared to those used in a dental surgery.

By contrast, the US guidelines require level 3 (BSL-3) precautions for
similar work, including self-closing doors, filtered air and scientists
equipped with full PPE while under medical supervision.

The US embassy found out about the experiments in Wuhan and sent
diplomats with scientific expertise to inspect the institute in January
2018, according to diplomatic cables leaked to The Washington Post. They
observed “a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and
investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory”.

Creating a mutant virus

Around the same time, the Wuhan institute took another perilousleap
forward with its work on the Shitou viruses. It began what Professor
Richard Ebright describes as the most dangerous coronavirus experiment
ever undertaken. The scientists selected three lab-grown mutant viruses,
created by mixing Sars-like viruses with WIV1, which had all been shown
to infect human cells. These mutants were then injected into the noses
of albino mice with human lungs.

The aim was to see whether the viruses had the potential to spark a
pandemic if they were fused together, as they might do naturally in a
bat colony. The original WIV1 virus was injected into another group of
mice as a comparison.

The mice were monitored in their cages over two weeks. The results were
shocking. The mutant virus that fused WIV1 with SHC014 killed 75 per
cent of the rodents and was three times as lethal as the original WIV1.
In the early days of the infection, the mice’s human-like lungs were
found to contain a viral load up to 10,000 times greater than the
original WIV1 virus.

The scientists had created a highly infectious super-coronavirus with a
terrifying kill-rate that in all probability would never have emerged in
nature. The new genetically modified virus was not Covid-19 but it might
have been even more deadly if it had leaked.

The Sars epidemic had proved how lethal these types of virus were, and
Sars itself was ten times as deadly as Covid-19. But Sars had been
brought under control by quarantining, because the people who were
infected exhibited symptoms a day or so before they could pass it on.

The experiment’s results suggested the new lab-made virus would be more
difficult to stop if it leaked into the population, according to
Ebright. It appeared to be highly infectious early in the illness.

The researchers’ tests also showed vaccines and other treatments
developed to combat Sars were not effective against the new virus. The
results of the experiment were not shared with other scientists in any
scientific journal or paper.

The experiment was part-funded by EcoHealth’s grant money, but the FOI
documents show that, while the Wuhan institute’s experiments were
described in Daszak’s April 2018 annual progress report to the NIH, he
did not refer to the deaths of the humanised mice.

There was also no mention of the mouse deaths in the grant renewal
application Daszak filed to the NIH later that year. In this account, he
said the mice had experienced “mild Sars-like clinical signs” when they
were infected with the mutant virus. It had actually killed six of the
eight infected humanised mice.

Daszak eventually provided details of the experiment’s deadly results to
the US authorities in a report after the Covid-19 pandemic. He now says
his 2018 statement about the “mild” illness was based on preliminary
results — even though the experiment in which the mice died had taken
place several months before he issued the statement.

US defence funds rejected

By March 2018, the Wuhan institute was keen to press ahead with more
experiments. Daszak applied for more funding from the US. He made a
pitch for $14 million over three years from the Defence Advanced
Research Projects Agency (Darpa), which is responsible for emerging
technology for use by the military.

The application, entitled Defuse — which names Daszak, Shi and Baric —
proposed the Wuhan laboratory find large numbers of new Sars viruses and
mix some of them with their two deadly strains from the Shitou cave —
WIV1 and SHC014 — to see what would happen. Darpa declined to fund the
research.

One specific experiment involved inserting a furin cleavage site, a tiny
section of a virus’s genetic order that makes them more infectious, into
the pathogens. Daszak and the Wuhan laboratory say they did not go ahead
with the work. But when Covid-19 emerged the following year, it was
notable for being the first Sars-like coronavirus with a furin cleavage
site.

Last week, Daszak denied the EcoHealth-related experiments were
dangerous. He said the NIH did not view the experiments as gain of
function and that laboratory safety rules in China were followed at all
times. The NIH said it “has never approved any research that would make
a coronavirus more dangerous to humans”.

Finding Covid’s origins

While the US funders had been kept informed about the work on the cave
viruses, investigators believe the Wuhan institute was running a shadow
project that it kept secret, even from Daszak.

The root of this project goes back to an incident that allegedly drew
the attention of the Chinese military to the work of scientists in
Wuhan. In 2012, the Wuhan institute’s researchers investigated an
abandoned copper mine with a large bat colony in the Mojiang region of
south China. Six men clearing out bat guano there were struck down by a
mystery illness that caused fever, coughs and pneumonia.

All the men required hospital treatment and three died. Tests on the men
for various illnesses came back negative but they tested positive for
antibodies to an unknown coronavirus.

It has been possible, however, to piece together what happened from a
master’s thesis by a medic at the hospital that treated the men and a
PhD paper by a student of the director of the Chinese Centre for Disease
Control and Prevention.

The incident happened while the institute was working on EcoHealth’s
Predict programme, which was aimed at finding this type of virus
crossover between animals and humans. But the Wuhan institute withheld
information about the mine deaths from EcoHealth and the US government.
Shi’s team spent four years stripping the Mojiang mine, collecting 1,300
samples from the bats, and discovered 293 coronaviruses.

The work on the mine appears to have ended in May 2015. A year later,
Shi published a scientific paper referring to the discovery at the site
of a coronavirus that was from a lineage of Sars never seen before. She
called it RaBtCoV/4991.

The paper did not mention the deaths of the miners or that the
scientists had found in the mine eight other Sars coronaviruses from the
same previously undiscovered family.

After the pandemic began, the 4991 virus took on ever-greater
significance. It was identified as the closest known relative to
Covid-19. It meant the nine viruses found in the mine were the only
members of Covid-19’s lineage known to have existed prior to the
pandemic. When the Wuhan institute was forced to admit the existence of
4991 — having listed a section of its genome sequence on an
international database in 2016 — it changed the name to RaTG13, which
meant it could not easily be linked to the mine.

In 2021, after sustained pressure, Shi published the genomic sequences
of the eight other mine viruses, claiming they were more distant from
Covid-19 than RaTG13. However, the sequences’ veracity has been called
into question.

Dr Monali Rahalkar, a microbiologist at the Agharkar Research Institute
in Pune, India, swiftly tweeted: “Looks like cheating . . . May be they
changed [the sequences] so people drop the trips to Mojiang mine.”

A shadow project

As the world emerged from lockdown, US State Department investigators
were given access to secret intelligence on what had been happening in
China in the months and years before Covid emerged.

More than a dozen investigators were given unparalleled access to
“metadata, phone information and internet information” from intercepts
collected by the US intelligence services.

The investigators’ report was published in early 2021. It made two
assertions: that Wuhan scientists were conducting experiments on RaTG13
from the Moijang mine, and that covert military research, including
laboratory animal experiments, was being done at the institute before
the pandemic. But the published report was brief — just 700 words — and
was stripped of all sourcing and detail because so much of it was
confidential.

The Sunday Times has spoken to three members of the team. The
intelligence they saw suggests the types of risky experiments undertaken
on the Shitou cave Sars viruses were also conducted in secret on RaTG13
and the other Covid-19-like viruses from the mine.

“They were working with the nine different Covid variants,” one of the
investigators said. They believe one virus at the Wuhan institute was an
even closer match to Covid-19 than RaTG13. “We are confident they were
working on a closer unpublished variant — possibly collected in
Mojiang,” the source added.

The investigators spoke to two researchers working at a US laboratory
who were collaborating with the Wuhan institute at the time of the
outbreak. They said the Wuhan scientists had inserted furin cleavage
sites into viruses in 2019 in exactly the way proposed in Daszak’s
failed funding application to Darpa.

The investigators also saw evidence that the institute was conducting
“serial passaging” experiments on at least one of the mine viruses. This
is a process in which lab animals are infected with viruses and
monitored to see which strain is harmful to their health. The most
damaging strain is selected for repeat experiments to encourage the
pathogens to mutate into something more deadly.

The investigators spoke to a Wuhan institute insider who alleged serial
passaging experiments were being carried out on RaTG13. “Humanised mice
with the serial passaging is a toxic combination,” said a source. “It
speeds up the natural mutation process. So instead of taking years to
mutate, it can take weeks or months. It guarantees that you accelerate
the natural process.”

Dr Steven Quay, a US scientist who advised the State Department on its
investigation, believes the Wuhan institute’s secrecy about the mine
virus never made sense. “There has never been an example of a bat virus
directly infecting humans and killing,” he said. Sars was a bat virus
that infected people via an intermediary animal. “If those miners died
from a bat virus, that was the first time in the history of human
science that that happened. And the Chinese didn’t publish it,” he
added. The investigators think Daszak was kept in the dark about this
part of the work.

Quay believes Covid-19 was created by inserting a furin cleavage site
into one of the mine viruses and then serial passaging it through
humanised mice. He submitted a statement to the US Senate explaining the
process. “You infect the mice, wait a week or so, and then recover the
virus from the sickest mice. Then you repeat. In a matter of weeks this
directed evolution will produce a virus that can kill every humanised
mouse.”

This explains why from the beginning of the outbreak, he says, the
pandemic virus was so remarkably well adapted to infect humans.

Working with the military

One of the reasons there is no published information on such work,
according to all three investigators, is because the shadow project on
the mine viruses at the Wuhan institute was being funded by the Chinese
military.

The State Department investigators wrote in their report: “Despite
presenting itself as a civilian institution, the United States has
determined that the Wuhan Institute of Virology has collaborated on
publications and secret projects with China’s military. The Wuhan
Institute of Virology has engaged in classified research, including
laboratory animal experiments, on behalf of the Chinese military since
at least 2017.”

One of the investigator sources said the secret military-funded
experiments on the mine virus, RaTG13, began in 2016. At around that
time, the Wuhan institute became even less open about its work and
mostly stopped revealing any new coronaviruses it discovered. In the
lead-up to the pandemic, the Wuhan institute frequently experimented on
coronaviruses alongside the Academy of Military Medical Sciences, a
research arm of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA). In published papers,
military scientists are listed as working for the Beijing Institute of
Microbiology and Epidemiology, which is the military academy’s base.

The military was also given positions of responsibility in the Wuhan
institute, according to a US Senate report. A book published in 2015 by
the military academy discusses how Sars viruses represent a “new era of
genetic weapons” that can be “artificially manipulated into an emerging
human disease virus, then weaponised and unleashed”.

The authors are PLA researchers, and one of the book’s editors has
collaborated on numerous scientific papers with Wuhan scientists. They
discuss how Sars can be weaponised by fusing it with other viruses and
“serial passaging” the resulting mutant to make it more dangerous.

A vaccine to shift power

The investigators believe the Chinese military had taken an interest in
developing a vaccine for the viruses so they could be used as potential
bioweapons. If a country could inoculate its population against its own
secret virus, it might have a weapon to shift the balance of world power.

The PLA had its own vaccine specialist, Zhou Yusen, a decorated military
scientist at the academy, who had collaborated with the Wuhan scientists
on a study of the Mers coronavirus and was working with them at the time
of the outbreak.

Suspicion fell on him after the pandemic because he produced a patent
for a Covid vaccine with remarkable speed in February 2020, little more
than a month after the outbreak of the virus had first been admitted to
the world by China.

A report published in April, co-authored by Dr Robert Kadlec, who was
responsible for the US’s vaccine development programme, concluded that
Zhou’s team must have been working on a vaccine no later than November
2019 — just as the pandemic began. One of the US investigators said
testimony from scientists connected to the Wuhan institute’s
collaborators suggested Covid-19 vaccine work was going on at the
laboratory before the outbreak.

In May 2020, aged just 54, Zhou appears to have died, a fact mentioned
only in passing in a Chinese-media report and in a scientific paper that
placed the word “deceased” in brackets after his name. Witnesses are
said to have told the US investigation that Zhou fell from the roof of
the Wuhan institute, although this has not been verified.

Did Covid leak in 2019?

The investigators also saw communications intercepts that allegedly show
three Wuhan institute researchers working at its level 3 laboratory on
coronavirus gain-of-function work had fallen sick with coronavirus
symptoms in the second week of November 2019, when many experts believe
the pandemic began. One of the researchers’ family members later died.

An investigator said: “We were rock-solid confident that this was likely
Covid-19 because they were working on advanced coronavirus research in
the laboratory of Dr Shi. They’re trained biologists in their thirties
and forties. Thirty-five-year-old scientists don’t get very sick with
influenza.”

There was certainly much activity at the institute. It issued a patent
on November 15 for a tourniquet to treat researchers who are “exposed
accidentally, especially when wounds such as needle pricks and blade
cuts occur”. A few days later, it sent out a procurement request for an
incinerator to sanitise air being piped out of its laboratory complex.

On November 19, the safety director of the Chinese Academy of Sciences
made a visit, according to the institute’s website. He addressed a
meeting of the institute’s leadership with important “oral and written”
instructions from China’s president, Xi Jinping, regarding “a complex
and grave situation”.

A later study by academics at Wuhan University located the hotspots in
Wuhan where people were reporting on social media that they needed
treatment for Covid. At the time, the authorities were eager to play
down the suggestion that the city’s Huanan seafood market was the source
of the outbreak; the study was used to show that the initial hotspots in
December and January were several miles away.

When the study was first published, the Wuhan institute was not marked
on the map it provided. So a report by the US Senate did just that — and
found the institute right next to the biggest hotspot in the month
before the province was locked down on January 23. The first case in
Britain was recorded a week later.

Even before the West was told a mysterious virus was killing people in
Wuhan, the Chinese authorities were beginning an information clampdown.

If a country could inoculate its population against its own secret
virus, it might have a weapon to shift the balance of world powerIf a
country could inoculate its population against its own secret virus, it
might have a weapon to shift the balance of world power
If a country could inoculate its population against its own secret
virus, it might have a weapon to shift the balance of world power
AP
In the first months of the pandemic, there was a strong desire among
Chinese scientists to head off to the bat caves in Yunnan to see whether
they could find a place where Covid may have originated.

Dr Alice Hughes said: “Every CAS research institute was prioritised to
go out and form these working groups to do more sampling.”

However, there was a no-go area: the Moijang mine. Seven of Hughes’s
team headed to the mine in June 2020, including Camping Huang, the PhD
student who had investigated the miners’ mystery illness soon after they
died.

When they arrived, they were told the Moijang mine was closed, so they
sampled bats in another abandoned copper mine nearby. On the first day
of their work, police arrived, seized the samples and took them to their
station, where they were interrogated and detained for 48 hours.

Officers also went to their hotel and seized the samples they had
collected from elsewhere. Even though the team had approval to test in
the area, they were ordered to leave. “We did provide documentation to
show we were there legally,” said Hughes. “But there was just too much
fear and so they didn’t release those samples.”

Shi has never revealed whether she returned to the Moijang mine or the
surrounding area after the outbreak. She is still working at the Wuhan
institute.

Hughes said she was barred from speaking to the media about the research
and was being watched by China’s security service. She said: “I was told
I was being monitored by the Yunnan Security Bureau for the work that we
had done on bats, which isn’t something you want, especially as a
foreigner in China.”

Eventually, there was a total clampdown on Covid origin work. Searching
for bat viruses was banned in Yunnan in early 2021 and new restrictions
on foreign researchers made it difficult for Hughes to continue her
work. She left China to take up a post at Hong Kong University earlier
this year.

Most coronavirus experts in China, she said, were too fearful of the
consequences to examine Covid’s origins. “They haven’t touched it
because of the risks associated with working on it.

“China has moved to a state where they can say what they want to be the
case — they can cherry-pick data that fits that narrative and prevent
the collection of data that could prove inconvenient. I think that it is
very dangerous.”

Noah Sombrero

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Jun 11, 2023, 8:48:59 AM6/11/23
to
On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 10:59:59 +0100, Julian <julia...@gmail.com>
wrote:
If...

>it might

It might...
So the origins remain unexamined.

>“They haven’t touched it
>because of the risks associated with working on it.
>
>“China has moved to a state where they can say what they want to be the
>case — they can cherry-pick data that fits that narrative and prevent
>the collection of data that could prove inconvenient. I think that it is
>very dangerous.”

An investigator said: “We were rock-solid confident that this was
likely..."

Sure you were.
--
Noah Sombrero

liaM

unread,
Jun 11, 2023, 8:51:30 AM6/11/23
to
I'm somewhat more curious about what transpired in between the 30 miles
that separated the poisonings in Salisbury by Novichok and the UK's
drugs weapons lab at Porton Down.

We imagine the worst...

... and that's why whistle blowers such as Snowden and
Asange are of value, and why they generated so much ire from autocrats
sour at having their manipulations revealed, as a check against the
autocrats's wantonness.

Noah Sombrero

unread,
Jun 11, 2023, 9:21:59 AM6/11/23
to
Autocrat here is a sensational overstatement. They aren't autocrats.

>sour at having their manipulations revealed, as a check against the
>autocrats's wantonness.

And it might even be they aren't wanton. Sensationalizing and
overstating makes protestations of innocence more credible. Avoid
such. Simply state the case.

But yes.
--
Noah Sombrero

Wilson

unread,
Jun 11, 2023, 10:36:30 AM6/11/23
to
> virus, it might have a weapon to shift the balance of world power.
In response to a lawsuit, documents were released by the National
Institute of Health that show the US government funded research on bat
Coronavirus through 2019 at the Wuhan Institute of Virology through the
US non-profit 'Eco-Health Alliance'.

"Changing the receptor binding site on MERS is sort of crazy," wrote
Jack Nunberg, a virologist and director of the Montana Biotechnology
Center at the University of Montana. "Although these new chimeric
viruses may retain properties of the MERS-CoV genetic backbone,
engineering of a known human pathogen raises new and unpredictable risks
beyond those posed by their previously reported studies using a
non-pathogenic bat virus backbone."

EcoHealth Alliance then lied and said they'd not conducted such work.

https://theintercept.com/2021/10/21/virus-mers-wuhan-experiments/


EcoHealth received $41.91 million in funding from 2008 to 2019 from the
US defense department.

https://nypost.com/2021/07/01/pentagon-gave-millions-to-ecohealth-alliance-for-wuhan-lab/



Julian

unread,
Jun 11, 2023, 11:01:32 AM6/11/23
to
Who does?

Noah Sombrero

unread,
Jun 11, 2023, 11:44:24 AM6/11/23
to
On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 14:51:25 +0200, liaM <cud...@mindless.com> wrote:

Yes we do. Imagine.

>... and that's why whistle blowers such as Snowden and
>Asange are of value, and why they generated so much ire from autocrats
>sour at having their manipulations revealed, as a check against the
>autocrats's wantonness.

What this does, in effect, is equate china's repressions with us's.
The very existence here of these whistleblowers, and the access we
have to what they say proves otherwise.
--
Noah Sombrero

liaM

unread,
Jun 11, 2023, 12:15:28 PM6/11/23
to
Sorry you're so wrong. Here's what governmental autocracy does,

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/29/abu-zubaydah-cia-torture-waterboarding-guantanamo

... and dozens, hundreds of other cases like this, known only because
people like Oliver North, Hilary Clinton, Ronald Reagan, GWB, etc. were
shown for what they did by whistleblowers like Daniel Ellsberg, Martha
Mitchell, John Kiriakou, Erin Brockovich, etc,

Autocrats aren't the dime a dozen types that inhabit vacant minds.

liaM

unread,
Jun 11, 2023, 12:20:09 PM6/11/23
to
It's always them against us, for you, too?




Ned

unread,
Jun 11, 2023, 1:06:06 PM6/11/23
to
You know, looking over the article and discussion, I'm going to
posit another Internet Law. This might actually be a generalized
form of DeMyer's Second Law (see below, #8). But it might go
something like this:

Ned Ludd's 3rd law: The validity of the central point of any article
posted to the internet is inversely proportional to the length of the
article proposing it.

Ned

P.S. And do, by all means, go find out if the Wuhan virus came from
a lab leak by asking the fucking Energy Department about it!


LAWS OF THE INTERNET

The Overriding Law of the Internet: The Thing We Talk About is the Thing We Love.

Ned Ludd's 1st law:
All posts to Usenet are ultimately self-referential.

Ned Ludd's 2nd law:
Any unmoderated Usenet group dedicated to a specific subject will eventually attract a majority of participants who are dedicated to opposing, insulting and interfering with the participants who wish to foster, praise and advance the subject matter of the group.

Ned Ludd's 3rd law: The validity of the central point of any article posted to the internet is inversely proportional to the length of the article proposing it.

Cunningham's Law:
The best way to get the right answer on the Internet is not to ask a question, but rather to post the wrong answer. Internet users can easily ignore a request for help, but have a hard time resisting the urge to appear smarter than the original poster.

1. Godwin’s Law
The most famous of all the internet laws, formed by Mike Godwin in 1990. As originally stated, it said: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

2. Poe’s Law
Not to be confused with the law of poetry enshrined by Edgar Allan Poe, the internet Poe’s Law states: “Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humour, it is impossible to create a parody of fundamentalism that someone won't mistake for the real thing.”

3. Rule 34 States: “If it exists, there is porn of it.” See also Rule 35: “If no such porn exists, it will be made.” Generally held to refer to fictional characters and cartoons, although some formulations insist there are "no exceptions" even for abstract ideas like non-Euclidean geometry, or puzzlement.

4. Skitt’s Law
Expressed as "any post correcting an error in another post will contain at least one error itself" or "the likelihood of an error in a post is directly proportional to the embarrassment it will cause the poster."

5. Scopie’s Law
States: “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses the argument immediately, and gets you laughed out of the room.”

6. Danth’s Law (also known as Parker’s Law)
States: “If you have to insist that you've won an internet argument, you've probably lost badly.”

7. Pommer’s Law
States: “A person's mind can be changed by reading information on the internet. The nature of this change will be from having no opinion to having a wrong opinion.”

8. DeMyer's Laws
There are four: the Zeroth, First, Second and Third Laws. The Second Law states: “Anyone who posts an argument on the internet which is largely quotations can be very safely ignored, and is deemed to have lost the argument before it has begun.” The Zeroth, First and Third Laws cannot be very generally applied and will be glossed over here.

9. Cohen’s Law
States that: “Whoever resorts to the argument that ‘whoever resorts to the argument that... …has automatically lost the debate’ has automatically lost the debate.”

10. The Law of Exclamation
"The more exclamation points used in an email (or other posting), the more likely it is a complete lie. This is also true for excessive capital letters."

liaM

unread,
Jun 11, 2023, 2:58:22 PM6/11/23
to
MS Bing's AI engine provides links to the sources of its answers. Have
you posted this on a blog somewhere? I'd love to inform Bing about your
list.

As told, it describes in detail the quicksands of the Usenet which have
trapped so many victims!

Noah Sombrero

unread,
Jun 11, 2023, 3:39:33 PM6/11/23
to
Autocrats torture people.


Here is the definition of autocracy:

"Government by a single person having unlimited power; despotism.

A country or state that is governed by a single person with unlimited
power."

American Heritage Dictionary

Torturing people is not mentioned.



China has xi, who might be accusable of being an autocrat.

Does the us have such a person?

>https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/29/abu-zubaydah-cia-torture-waterboarding-guantanamo

Lots of people were tortured at guantanamo. That appears unjustified
even to those likely to think it might be justified in some cases.
That does not mean that the us is an autocracy, or that the us
tortures critics among its own citizens, as you might accuse china of
doing, and what autocrats more commonly do.

>... and dozens, hundreds of other cases like this, known only because
>people like Oliver North, Hilary Clinton, Ronald Reagan, GWB, etc. were
>shown for what they did by whistleblowers like Daniel Ellsberg, Martha
>Mitchell, John Kiriakou, Erin Brockovich, etc,
>
>Autocrats aren't the dime a dozen types that inhabit vacant minds.
--
Noah Sombrero

Noah Sombrero

unread,
Jun 11, 2023, 3:41:15 PM6/11/23
to
This is a reason why us repression is anything like china's?

>
--
Noah Sombrero

Noah Sombrero

unread,
Jun 11, 2023, 3:50:20 PM6/11/23
to
On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 10:06:05 -0700 (PDT), Ned <ned...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
Now that particular assertion certainly does sound unanswerably
unchallengeable.
--
Noah Sombrero

Ned

unread,
Jun 11, 2023, 3:52:40 PM6/11/23
to
On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 11:58:22 AM UTC-7, liaM wrote:
> On 6/11/2023 7:06 PM, Ned wrote:
> > On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 9:20:09 AM UTC-7, liaM wrote:
> >> On 6/11/2023 5:44 PM, Noah Sombrero wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 14:51:25 +0200, liaM <cud...@mindless.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 6/11/2023 11:59 AM, Julian wrote:
> >>>>> Fresh evidence drawn from confidential files reveals Chinese scientists
> >>>>> spliced together deadly pathogens shortly before the pandemic, the
> >>>>> Sunday Times Insight team report
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Scientists in Wuhan working alongside the Chinese military were...
>
[smip - Ridiculously long article.]
ChatGPT is much worse. Recently a New York lawyer used Chatty-
generated text to present his case...
---
As the court hearing in Manhattan began, the lawyer, Steven A.
Schwartz, appeared nervously upbeat, grinning while talking with
his legal team. Nearly two hours later, Mr. Schwartz sat slumped,
his shoulders drooping and his head rising barely above the back
of his chair.
For nearly two hours Thursday, Mr. Schwartz was grilled by a judge
in a hearing ordered after the disclosure that the lawyer had created
a legal brief for a case in Federal District Court that was filled with
fake judicial opinions and legal citations, all generated by ChatGPT.
The judge, P. Kevin Castel, said he would now consider whether to
impose sanctions on Mr. Schwartz and his partner, Peter LoDuca,
whose name was on the brief.
“God, I wish I did that, and I didn’t do it,” Mr. Schwartz said, adding
that he felt embarrassed, humiliated and deeply remorseful...
The case involved a man named Roberto Mata, who had sued the
airline Avianca claiming he was injured when a metal serving cart
struck his knee during an August 2019 flight from El Salvador to
New York.
Avianca asked Judge Castel to dismiss the lawsuit because the statute
of limitations had expired. Mr. Mata’s lawyers responded with a 10-page
brief citing more than half a dozen court decisions, with names like
Martinez v. Delta Air Lines, Zicherman v. Korean Air Lines and Varghese
v. China Southern Airlines, in support of their argument that the suit
should be allowed to proceed.
After Avianca’s lawyers could not locate the cases, Judge Castel
ordered Mr. Mata’s lawyers to provide copies. They submitted a
compendium of decisions.
It turned out the cases were not real...
There was no silver lining in courtroom 11-D on Thursday. At one point,
Judge Castel questioned Mr. Schwartz about one of the fake opinions,
reading a few lines aloud.
“Can we agree that’s legal gibberish?” Judge Castel said...
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/08/nyregion/lawyer-chatgpt-sanctions.html
---

Chatty made it all up!

Yikes.

Ned

Master of In/sanity

unread,
Jun 11, 2023, 5:05:10 PM6/11/23
to
Yes the world is ruled by lucifer and his gimps the capitalist elite
which are lobbying the politicians, just inform yourself!

> American Heritage Dictionary
>
> Torturing people is not mentioned.
>
>
>
> China has xi, who might be accusable of being an autocrat.
>
> Does the us have such a person?
>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/29/abu-zubaydah-cia-torture-waterboarding-guantanamo
>
> Lots of people were tortured at guantanamo. That appears unjustified
> even to those likely to think it might be justified in some cases.
> That does not mean that the us is an autocracy, or that the us
> tortures critics among its own citizens, as you might accuse china of
> doing, and what autocrats more commonly do.
>
>> ... and dozens, hundreds of other cases like this, known only because
>> people like Oliver North, Hilary Clinton, Ronald Reagan, GWB, etc. were
>> shown for what they did by whistleblowers like Daniel Ellsberg, Martha
>> Mitchell, John Kiriakou, Erin Brockovich, etc,
>>
>> Autocrats aren't the dime a dozen types that inhabit vacant minds.

--
Homepage:

https://slowtemplelovecozmicpurplehealing.wordpress.com/

Book:

https://shop.tredition.com/booktitle/Thoughts_and_mediations_of_a_gnostic_and_mystic_Curandero/W-448-315-036

Master of In/sanity

Master of In/sanity

unread,
Jun 11, 2023, 5:18:07 PM6/11/23
to
A french medicine nobel laureat said that probably also hiv parts were
worked into the sars-cov virus that'S also why it mutated on its own as
hiv virus is the only known virus to mutate on its own!

Creon

unread,
Jun 12, 2023, 2:39:07 AM6/12/23
to
One might do well to not dismiss the article. I know I'm going
to keep my eye out for more news.

--
-c

Noah Sombrero

unread,
Jun 12, 2023, 3:17:52 AM6/12/23
to
On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 06:39:05 GMT, Creon <cr...@creon.earth> wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 08:48:57 -0400, Noah Sombrero wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 10:59:59 +0100, Julian <julia...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Fresh evidence drawn from confidential files reveals Chinese scientists
>>>spliced together deadly pathogens shortly before the pandemic, the
>>>Sunday Times Insight team report
>>>
>>>Scientists in Wuhan working alongside the Chinese military were
>>>combining the world?s most deadly coronaviruses to create a new mutant
>>>virus just as the pandemic began.
>>>
>>>Investigators who scrutinised top-secret intercepted communications and
>>>scientific research believe Chinese scientists were running a covert
>>>project of dangerous experiments, which caused a leak from the Wuhan
>>>Institute of Virology and started the Covid-19 outbreak.
>>>
>>>The US investigators say one of the reasons there is no published
>>>information on the work is because it was done in collaboration with
>>>researchers from the Chinese military, which was funding it and which,
>>>they say, was pursuing bioweapons.
>>>
>>>The Sunday Times has reviewed hundreds of documents, including
>>>previously confidential reports, internal memos, scientific papers and
>>>email correspondence that has been obtained through sources or by
>>>freedom of information campaigners in the three years since the pandemic
>>>started. We also interviewed the US State Department investigators ?
>>>including experts on China, emerging pandemic threats, and biowarfare ?
>>>who conducted the first significant US inquiry into the origins of the
>>>Covid-19 outbreak.
>>>
>>>Whether the virus emerged as a result of a leak from a laboratory or
>>>from nature has become one the most controversial problems in science.
>>>Researchers who have attempted to find conclusive proof have been
>>>hampered by China?s lack of transparency.
>>>
>>>However, our new investigation paints the clearest picture yet of what
>>>happened in the Wuhan laboratory.
>>>
>>>The facility, which had started hunting the origins of the Sars virus in
>>>2003, attracted US government funding through a New York-based charity
>>>whose president was a British-born and educated zoologist. America?s
>>>leading coronavirus scientist shared cutting-edge virus manipulation
>>>techniques.
>>>
>>>The institute was engaged in increasingly risky experiments on
>>>coronaviruses it gathered from bat caves in southern China. Initially,
>>>it made its findings public and argued the associated risks were
>>>justified because the work might help science develop vaccines.
>>>
>>>This changed in 2016 after researchers discovered a new type of
>>>coronavirus in a mineshaft in Mojiang in Yunnan province where people
>>>had died from symptoms similar to Sars.
>>>
>>>Rather than warning the world, the Chinese authorities did not report
>>>the fatalities. The viruses found there are now recognised as the only
>>>members of Covid-19?s immediate family known to have been in existence
>>>pre-pandemic.
>>>
>>>They were transported to the Wuhan institute and the work of its
>>>scientists became classified. ?The trail of papers starts to go dark,? a
>>>US investigator said. ?That?s exactly when the classified programme
>>>kicked off. My view is that the reason Mojiang was covered up was due to
>>>military secrecy related to [the army?s] pursuit of dual use
>>>capabilities in virological biological weapons and vaccines.?
>>>
>>>According to the US investigators, the classified programme was to make
>>>the mineshaft viruses more infectious to humans.
>>>
>>>They believe this led to the creation of the Covid-19 virus, and that it
>>>leaked into the city of Wuhan after a laboratory accident. ?It has
>>>become increasingly clear that the Wuhan Institute of Virology was
>>>involved in the creation, promulgation and cover-up of the Covid-19
>>>pandemic,? one of the investigators said.
>>>
>>>They found evidence that researchers working on these experiments were
>>>taken to hospital with Covid-like symptoms in November 2019 ? a month
>>>before the West became aware of the pandemic ? and one of their
>>>relatives died.
>>>
>>>An investigator said: ?We were rock-solid confident that this was likely
>>>Covid-19 because they were working on advanced coronavirus research in
>>>the laboratory. They?re trained biologists in their thirties and
>>>forties. Thirty-five-year-old scientists don?t get very sick with
>>>influenza.?
>>>
>>>Separate analysis shows the centre of the initial outbreak of Covid-19,
>>>which has killed more than seven million people, was close to the
>>>institute?s laboratory, rather than at the city?s ?wet? wildlife market
>>>as had been thought.
>>>
>>>The US investigators also revealed how they had been given evidence
>>>indicating the institute had been working on a vaccine before the
>>>pandemic. ?I interviewed scientists in Asia who have close relationships
>>>with the Wuhan Institute of Virology,? the source said. ?They told me it
>>>is their belief that there was vaccine research going on in the fall of
>>>2019, pertinent to Covid-19 vaccination.?
>>>
>>>Foreign experts who have sought to identify the source of the pandemic
>>>have been blocked from investigating by the Chinese state.
>>>
>>>A team led by British bat expert Alice Hughes, who was an associate
>>>professor at the Chinese Academy of Sciences, which oversees the Wuhan
>>>institute, had been working in the mines. Hughes said she was barred
>>>from speaking to the media about her research and was being watched by
>>>China?s security service. The restrictions forced her to leave China and
>>>move to Hong Kong.
>>>
>>>The microbiologist Professor Richard Ebright, of Rutgers University?s
>>>Waksman Institute of Microbiology, is a long-standing opponent of the
>>>type of high-risk work undertaken at Wuhan.
>>>
>>>He reviewed some of the experiments and describes them as ?by far the
>>>most reckless and dangerous research on coronaviruses ? or indeed on any
>>>viruses ? known to have been undertaken at any time in any location?.
>>>
>>>Experiment that diced with death: inside the Wuhan lab
>>>
>>>In November 2002, farmers and food workers in the Chinese province of
>>>Guangdong began to fall ill with severe respiratory symptoms. Medical
>>>staff soon followed suit. The Sars virus spread rapidly through 29
>>>countries, infecting 8,000 people and killing 774. It was the first
>>>serious epidemic of the new century ? and a wake-up call to scientists.
>>>
>>>Sars was identified as a coronavirus, which until then had mostly caused
>>>mild symptoms, such as a common cold. If it could mutate like this, so
>>>could other viruses. A vaccine was needed.
>>>
>>>The job of finding out how Sars had emerged was taken on by the Wuhan
>>>Institute of Virology and its most famous scientist, 39-year-old Dr Shi
>>>Zhengli. She and her team zoned in on bats, which had been linked to
>>>other deadly viruses, such as rabies, nipah and marburg. She began
>>>searching for bat colonies in caves in southern China in 2004, earning
>>>her the nickname ?Batwoman?. Faecal samples were sent back to Wuhan to
>>>be tested for viruses.
>>>
>>>They began conducting experiments with Sars and other viruses. Shi was
>>>joined by a British bat expert, Dr Peter Daszak, who would become a
>>>close friend and collaborator. Born in Dukinfield, near Manchester, he
>>>obtained a degree in zoology at Bangor University and later moved to New
>>>York, where he took a management position in the Wildlife Trust, a
>>>non-profit organisation.
>>>Its work protecting pets and endangered species did not attract
>>>substantial funding. But after the September 11 terror attacks and the
>>>Sars outbreak, the US began to see the importance of funding work
>>>combatting bioterrorism and pandemics. The trust began to focus on how
>>>viruses might cross from animals to people and spark a pandemic.
>>>
>>>Shi?s team provided the fieldwork for the trust?s campaign and the
>>>laboratories to test and experiment on the viruses. In 2009, the trust
>>>was given $18 million over five years from a new programme, called
>>>Predict, to identify pandemic viruses. Shortly afterwards, the trust was
>>>rebranded as the EcoHealth Alliance and Daszak assumed the role of
>>>president. The Chinese collaborators who helped put him on the map were
>>>also rewarded: $1 million of the Predict grant was redirected to the
>>>Wuhan institute.
>>>
>>>Mice were ?humanised? with genes that allowed them to develop lungs and
>>>vascular systems similar to oursMice were ?humanised? with genes that
>>>allowed them to develop lungs and vascular systems similar to ours Mice
>>>were ?humanised? with genes that allowed them to develop lungs and
>>>vascular systems similar to ours
>>>
>>>Tests on humanised mice
>>>
>>>The truly cutting-edge experiments were being done in the US by the
>>>veteran virologist Ralph Baric at the University of North Carolina. He
>>>used a technique to fuse together different pathogens by mixing their
>>>genes. To test the effect of these lab-created mutant viruses on people,
>>>he created ?humanised? mice by injecting them with genes that allowed
>>>them to develop lungs and vascular systems similar to ours. His ultimate
>>>aim was to create a universal vaccine against Sars-type viruses ? an
>>>objective still not achieved.
>>>
>>>Baric was aware this type of ?gain of function? work, so-called because
>>>it can enhance virus potency, was controversial and could have a
>>>sinister application.
>>>
>>>?Ominously, tools exist for simultaneously modifying the genomes for
>>>increased virulence [and] transmissibility,? he had written in a 2006
>>>paper. ?These bioweapons could be targeted to humans, domesticated
>>>animals or crops, causing a devastating impact on human civilisation.?
>>>
>>>By 2012, campaigners and scientists were starting to wake up to the
>>>profound risks inherent in coronavirus work. Lynn Klotz, a senior fellow
>>>at the Centre for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation, in Washington,
>>>called for research on live Sars coronaviruses to be stopped.
>>>
>>>?About 30 labs now are working with live Sars virus worldwide. The
>>>probability of escape from at least one laboratory is high,? Klotz wrote
>>>in a co-authored article. ?Would one in ten escapes lead to a major
>>>outbreak or pandemic? One in a hundred? One in a thousand? No one knows.
>>>But for any of these probabilities, the likelihood-weighted number of
>>>victims and deaths would be intolerably high.?
>>>
>>>Bioweapons warnings
>>>
>>>In 2012, in a cave called Shitou in the remote mountains of Yunnan
>>>province, southern China, Shi?s team made a breakthrough. They recovered
>>>a virus that was the closest match to Sars of those found at the time.
>>>They labelled it WIV1, using the initials of the institute, and
>>>demonstrated through laboratory work that it was able to infect human
>>>cells.
>>>
>>>But they were unable to grow sufficient quantities of a second Sars-like
>>>virus found in the cave, labelled SHC014, to do similar tests.
>>>
>>>Shi needed Baric?s expertise. She contacted him in 2013 and he agreed to
>>>help. The Wuhan Institute provided Baric?s team with the genetic
>>>sequence for SHC014 so he could recreate the genes from the microscopic
>>>spikes that protrude from its sides. The American scientists then
>>>inserted SHC014?s ?spike gene? into a copy of the original Sars virus
>>>Baric had created in his lab and tested the new mutant on his humanised
>>>mice.
>>>
>>>In May 2014, EcoHealth Alliance was awarded a $3.7 million publicly
>>>funded grant by the US National Institutes of Health (NIH). More than
>>>$500,000 of it went to the Wuhan lab for equipment and a further
>>>$130,000 was spent chiefly on pay and benefits for Shi and her
>>>assistant.
>>>
>>>Pressure was being exerted on the lab work, however. That year, Barack
>>>Obama announced a moratorium on all gain-of-function experiments that
>>>would be ?reasonably anticipated? to increase a pathogen?s
>>>infectiousness or lethality. This included Sars-related work.
>>>
>>>It could have been the end of the Wuhan-North Carolina collaboration,
>>>but a loophole allowed gain-of-function work to proceed if deemed urgent
>>>and safe. Baric made the argument to the NIH, which gave approval.
>>>
>>>The results of Baric?s experiment with the genetic sequence given to him
>>>by Shi were published in co-authored research in November 2015. The
>>>combined Sars copy and SHC014 virus was a potential mass killer. It
>>>caused severe lung damage in humanised mice and was resistant to
>>>vaccines developed for Sars. The paper acknowledged this might have been
>>>an experiment that was too dangerous.
>>>
>>>It caused a big stir. ?If the virus escaped, nobody could predict the
>>>trajectory,? warned Simon Wain-Hobson, a virologist at the Pasteur
>>>Institute in Paris.
>>>
>>>Safety fear at Wuhan labs
>>>
>>>The Wuhan institute began stepping up its own lab work using Baric?s
>>>techniques. It created two new mutants by fusing viruses with the WIV1
>>>pathogen it had found in the Shitou cave. These experiments were
>>>mentioned in Daszak?s progress report for the year to May 2016, which he
>>>submitted to the US government funders. The same report disclosed the
>>>institute planned to create an infectious version of the camel pathogen
>>>Mers by combining it with bat viruses. Mers had killed 35 per cent of
>>>people infected during a 2012 outbreak in Saudi Arabia.
>>>
>>>This triggered alarm bells for the US government because it would have
>>>involved the type of gain-of-function experiments that were still
>>>barred. According to documents obtained by freedom of information
>>>campaigners, Daszak argued the Mers experiment was not gain of function
>>>because it was unlikely to make the virus more pathogenic. A compromise
>>>was reached whereby the scientists would stop work and report to US
>>>officials if they created a new mutant virus that grew ten times faster
>>>than the natural virus it was created from.
>>>
>>>That same year, Daszak announced to a New York conference that Shi was
>>>moving ?closer and closer? to obtaining a virus ?that could really
>>>become pathogenic in people?.
>>>
>>>By 2017, according to a paper published by Shi, her scientists had
>>>sought to create eight mutant viruses from the Sars-like coronaviruses
>>>found in the Shitou cave. Two of the mutant viruses were found to infect
>>>human cells. Most of this work was carried out in the institute?s
>>>biosafety level 2 (BSL-2) laboratories, which took only light
>>>precautions that have been compared to those used in a dental surgery.
>>>
>>>By contrast, the US guidelines require level 3 (BSL-3) precautions for
>>>similar work, including self-closing doors, filtered air and scientists
>>>equipped with full PPE while under medical supervision.
>>>
>>>The US embassy found out about the experiments in Wuhan and sent
>>>diplomats with scientific expertise to inspect the institute in January
>>>2018, according to diplomatic cables leaked to The Washington Post. They
>>>observed ?a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and
>>>investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment
>>>laboratory?.
>>>
>>>Creating a mutant virus
>>>
>>>Around the same time, the Wuhan institute took another perilousleap
>>>forward with its work on the Shitou viruses. It began what Professor
>>>Richard Ebright describes as the most dangerous coronavirus experiment
>>>ever undertaken. The scientists selected three lab-grown mutant viruses,
>>>created by mixing Sars-like viruses with WIV1, which had all been shown
>>>to infect human cells. These mutants were then injected into the noses
>>>of albino mice with human lungs.
>>>
>>>The aim was to see whether the viruses had the potential to spark a
>>>pandemic if they were fused together, as they might do naturally in a
>>>bat colony. The original WIV1 virus was injected into another group of
>>>mice as a comparison.
>>>
>>>The mice were monitored in their cages over two weeks. The results were
>>>shocking. The mutant virus that fused WIV1 with SHC014 killed 75 per
>>>cent of the rodents and was three times as lethal as the original WIV1.
>>>In the early days of the infection, the mice?s human-like lungs were
>>>found to contain a viral load up to 10,000 times greater than the
>>>original WIV1 virus.
>>>
>>>The scientists had created a highly infectious super-coronavirus with a
>>>terrifying kill-rate that in all probability would never have emerged in
>>>nature. The new genetically modified virus was not Covid-19 but it might
>>>have been even more deadly if it had leaked.
>>>
>>>The Sars epidemic had proved how lethal these types of virus were, and
>>>Sars itself was ten times as deadly as Covid-19. But Sars had been
>>>brought under control by quarantining, because the people who were
>>>infected exhibited symptoms a day or so before they could pass it on.
>>>
>>>The experiment?s results suggested the new lab-made virus would be more
>>>difficult to stop if it leaked into the population, according to
>>>Ebright. It appeared to be highly infectious early in the illness.
>>>
>>>The researchers? tests also showed vaccines and other treatments
>>>developed to combat Sars were not effective against the new virus. The
>>>results of the experiment were not shared with other scientists in any
>>>scientific journal or paper.
>>>
>>>The experiment was part-funded by EcoHealth?s grant money, but the FOI
>>>documents show that, while the Wuhan institute?s experiments were
>>>described in Daszak?s April 2018 annual progress report to the NIH, he
>>>did not refer to the deaths of the humanised mice.
>>>
>>>There was also no mention of the mouse deaths in the grant renewal
>>>application Daszak filed to the NIH later that year. In this account, he
>>>said the mice had experienced ?mild Sars-like clinical signs? when they
>>>were infected with the mutant virus. It had actually killed six of the
>>>eight infected humanised mice.
>>>
>>>Daszak eventually provided details of the experiment?s deadly results to
>>>the US authorities in a report after the Covid-19 pandemic. He now says
>>>his 2018 statement about the ?mild? illness was based on preliminary
>>>results ? even though the experiment in which the mice died had taken
>>>place several months before he issued the statement.
>>>
>>>US defence funds rejected
>>>
>>>By March 2018, the Wuhan institute was keen to press ahead with more
>>>experiments. Daszak applied for more funding from the US. He made a
>>>pitch for $14 million over three years from the Defence Advanced
>>>Research Projects Agency (Darpa), which is responsible for emerging
>>>technology for use by the military.
>>>
>>>The application, entitled Defuse ? which names Daszak, Shi and Baric ?
>>>proposed the Wuhan laboratory find large numbers of new Sars viruses and
>>>mix some of them with their two deadly strains from the Shitou cave ?
>>>WIV1 and SHC014 ? to see what would happen. Darpa declined to fund the
>>>research.
>>>
>>>One specific experiment involved inserting a furin cleavage site, a tiny
>>>section of a virus?s genetic order that makes them more infectious, into
>>>the pathogens. Daszak and the Wuhan laboratory say they did not go ahead
>>>with the work. But when Covid-19 emerged the following year, it was
>>>notable for being the first Sars-like coronavirus with a furin cleavage
>>>site.
>>>
>>>Last week, Daszak denied the EcoHealth-related experiments were
>>>dangerous. He said the NIH did not view the experiments as gain of
>>>function and that laboratory safety rules in China were followed at all
>>>times. The NIH said it ?has never approved any research that would make
>>>a coronavirus more dangerous to humans?.
>>>
>>>Finding Covid?s origins
>>>
>>>While the US funders had been kept informed about the work on the cave
>>>viruses, investigators believe the Wuhan institute was running a shadow
>>>project that it kept secret, even from Daszak.
>>>
>>>The root of this project goes back to an incident that allegedly drew
>>>the attention of the Chinese military to the work of scientists in
>>>Wuhan. In 2012, the Wuhan institute?s researchers investigated an
>>>abandoned copper mine with a large bat colony in the Mojiang region of
>>>south China. Six men clearing out bat guano there were struck down by a
>>>mystery illness that caused fever, coughs and pneumonia.
>>>
>>>All the men required hospital treatment and three died. Tests on the men
>>>for various illnesses came back negative but they tested positive for
>>>antibodies to an unknown coronavirus.
>>>
>>>It has been possible, however, to piece together what happened from a
>>>master?s thesis by a medic at the hospital that treated the men and a
>>>PhD paper by a student of the director of the Chinese Centre for Disease
>>>Control and Prevention.
>>>
>>>The incident happened while the institute was working on EcoHealth?s
>>>Predict programme, which was aimed at finding this type of virus
>>>crossover between animals and humans. But the Wuhan institute withheld
>>>information about the mine deaths from EcoHealth and the US government.
>>>Shi?s team spent four years stripping the Mojiang mine, collecting 1,300
>>>samples from the bats, and discovered 293 coronaviruses.
>>>
>>>The work on the mine appears to have ended in May 2015. A year later,
>>>Shi published a scientific paper referring to the discovery at the site
>>>of a coronavirus that was from a lineage of Sars never seen before. She
>>>called it RaBtCoV/4991.
>>>
>>>The paper did not mention the deaths of the miners or that the
>>>scientists had found in the mine eight other Sars coronaviruses from the
>>>same previously undiscovered family.
>>>
>>>After the pandemic began, the 4991 virus took on ever-greater
>>>significance. It was identified as the closest known relative to
>>>Covid-19. It meant the nine viruses found in the mine were the only
>>>members of Covid-19?s lineage known to have existed prior to the
>>>pandemic. When the Wuhan institute was forced to admit the existence of
>>>4991 ? having listed a section of its genome sequence on an
>>>international database in 2016 ? it changed the name to RaTG13, which
>>>meant it could not easily be linked to the mine.
>>>
>>>In 2021, after sustained pressure, Shi published the genomic sequences
>>>of the eight other mine viruses, claiming they were more distant from
>>>Covid-19 than RaTG13. However, the sequences? veracity has been called
>>>into question.
>>>
>>>Dr Monali Rahalkar, a microbiologist at the Agharkar Research Institute
>>>in Pune, India, swiftly tweeted: ?Looks like cheating . . . May be they
>>>changed [the sequences] so people drop the trips to Mojiang mine.?
>>>
>>>A shadow project
>>>
>>>As the world emerged from lockdown, US State Department investigators
>>>were given access to secret intelligence on what had been happening in
>>>China in the months and years before Covid emerged.
>>>
>>>More than a dozen investigators were given unparalleled access to
>>>?metadata, phone information and internet information? from intercepts
>>>collected by the US intelligence services.
>>>
>>>The investigators? report was published in early 2021. It made two
>>>assertions: that Wuhan scientists were conducting experiments on RaTG13
>>>from the Moijang mine, and that covert military research, including
>>>laboratory animal experiments, was being done at the institute before
>>>the pandemic. But the published report was brief ? just 700 words ? and
>>>was stripped of all sourcing and detail because so much of it was
>>>confidential.
>>>
>>>The Sunday Times has spoken to three members of the team. The
>>>intelligence they saw suggests the types of risky experiments undertaken
>>>on the Shitou cave Sars viruses were also conducted in secret on RaTG13
>>>and the other Covid-19-like viruses from the mine.
>>>
>>>?They were working with the nine different Covid variants,? one of the
>>>investigators said. They believe one virus at the Wuhan institute was an
>>>even closer match to Covid-19 than RaTG13. ?We are confident they were
>>>working on a closer unpublished variant ? possibly collected in
>>>Mojiang,? the source added.
>>>
>>>The investigators spoke to two researchers working at a US laboratory
>>>who were collaborating with the Wuhan institute at the time of the
>>>outbreak. They said the Wuhan scientists had inserted furin cleavage
>>>sites into viruses in 2019 in exactly the way proposed in Daszak?s
>>>failed funding application to Darpa.
>>>
>>>The investigators also saw evidence that the institute was conducting
>>>?serial passaging? experiments on at least one of the mine viruses. This
>>>is a process in which lab animals are infected with viruses and
>>>monitored to see which strain is harmful to their health. The most
>>>damaging strain is selected for repeat experiments to encourage the
>>>pathogens to mutate into something more deadly.
>>>
>>>The investigators spoke to a Wuhan institute insider who alleged serial
>>>passaging experiments were being carried out on RaTG13. ?Humanised mice
>>>with the serial passaging is a toxic combination,? said a source. ?It
>>>speeds up the natural mutation process. So instead of taking years to
>>>mutate, it can take weeks or months. It guarantees that you accelerate
>>>the natural process.?
>>>
>>>Dr Steven Quay, a US scientist who advised the State Department on its
>>>investigation, believes the Wuhan institute?s secrecy about the mine
>>>virus never made sense. ?There has never been an example of a bat virus
>>>directly infecting humans and killing,? he said. Sars was a bat virus
>>>that infected people via an intermediary animal. ?If those miners died
>>>from a bat virus, that was the first time in the history of human
>>>science that that happened. And the Chinese didn?t publish it,? he
>>>added. The investigators think Daszak was kept in the dark about this
>>>part of the work.
>>>
>>>Quay believes Covid-19 was created by inserting a furin cleavage site
>>>into one of the mine viruses and then serial passaging it through
>>>humanised mice. He submitted a statement to the US Senate explaining the
>>>process. ?You infect the mice, wait a week or so, and then recover the
>>>virus from the sickest mice. Then you repeat. In a matter of weeks this
>>>directed evolution will produce a virus that can kill every humanised
>>>mouse.?
>>>
>>>This explains why from the beginning of the outbreak, he says, the
>>>pandemic virus was so remarkably well adapted to infect humans.
>>>
>>>Working with the military
>>>
>>>One of the reasons there is no published information on such work,
>>>according to all three investigators, is because the shadow project on
>>>the mine viruses at the Wuhan institute was being funded by the Chinese
>>>military.
>>>
>>>The State Department investigators wrote in their report: ?Despite
>>>presenting itself as a civilian institution, the United States has
>>>determined that the Wuhan Institute of Virology has collaborated on
>>>publications and secret projects with China?s military. The Wuhan
>>>Institute of Virology has engaged in classified research, including
>>>laboratory animal experiments, on behalf of the Chinese military since
>>>at least 2017.?
>>>
>>>One of the investigator sources said the secret military-funded
>>>experiments on the mine virus, RaTG13, began in 2016. At around that
>>>time, the Wuhan institute became even less open about its work and
>>>mostly stopped revealing any new coronaviruses it discovered. In the
>>>lead-up to the pandemic, the Wuhan institute frequently experimented on
>>>coronaviruses alongside the Academy of Military Medical Sciences, a
>>>research arm of the People?s Liberation Army (PLA). In published papers,
>>>military scientists are listed as working for the Beijing Institute of
>>>Microbiology and Epidemiology, which is the military academy?s base.
>>>
>>>The military was also given positions of responsibility in the Wuhan
>>>institute, according to a US Senate report. A book published in 2015 by
>>>the military academy discusses how Sars viruses represent a ?new era of
>>>genetic weapons? that can be ?artificially manipulated into an emerging
>>>human disease virus, then weaponised and unleashed?.
>>>
>>>The authors are PLA researchers, and one of the book?s editors has
>>>collaborated on numerous scientific papers with Wuhan scientists. They
>>>discuss how Sars can be weaponised by fusing it with other viruses and
>>>?serial passaging? the resulting mutant to make it more dangerous.
>>>
>>>A vaccine to shift power
>>>
>>>The investigators believe the Chinese military had taken an interest in
>>>developing a vaccine for the viruses so they could be used as potential
>>>bioweapons. If a country could inoculate its population against its own
>>>secret virus, it might have a weapon to shift the balance of world
>>>power.
>>>
>>>The PLA had its own vaccine specialist, Zhou Yusen, a decorated military
>>>scientist at the academy, who had collaborated with the Wuhan scientists
>>>on a study of the Mers coronavirus and was working with them at the time
>>>of the outbreak.
>>>
>>>Suspicion fell on him after the pandemic because he produced a patent
>>>for a Covid vaccine with remarkable speed in February 2020, little more
>>>than a month after the outbreak of the virus had first been admitted to
>>>the world by China.
>>>
>>>A report published in April, co-authored by Dr Robert Kadlec, who was
>>>responsible for the US?s vaccine development programme, concluded that
>>>Zhou?s team must have been working on a vaccine no later than November
>>>2019 ? just as the pandemic began. One of the US investigators said
>>>testimony from scientists connected to the Wuhan institute?s
>>>collaborators suggested Covid-19 vaccine work was going on at the
>>>laboratory before the outbreak.
>>>
>>>In May 2020, aged just 54, Zhou appears to have died, a fact mentioned
>>>only in passing in a Chinese-media report and in a scientific paper that
>>>placed the word ?deceased? in brackets after his name. Witnesses are
>>>said to have told the US investigation that Zhou fell from the roof of
>>>the Wuhan institute, although this has not been verified.
>>>
>>>Did Covid leak in 2019?
>>>
>>>The investigators also saw communications intercepts that allegedly show
>>>three Wuhan institute researchers working at its level 3 laboratory on
>>>coronavirus gain-of-function work had fallen sick with coronavirus
>>>symptoms in the second week of November 2019, when many experts believe
>>>the pandemic began. One of the researchers? family members later died.
>>>
>>>An investigator said: ?We were rock-solid confident that this was likely
>>>Covid-19 because they were working on advanced coronavirus research in
>>>the laboratory of Dr Shi. They?re trained biologists in their thirties
>>>and forties. Thirty-five-year-old scientists don?t get very sick with
>>>influenza.?
>>>
>>>There was certainly much activity at the institute. It issued a patent
>>>on November 15 for a tourniquet to treat researchers who are ?exposed
>>>accidentally, especially when wounds such as needle pricks and blade
>>>cuts occur?. A few days later, it sent out a procurement request for an
>>>incinerator to sanitise air being piped out of its laboratory complex.
>>>
>>>On November 19, the safety director of the Chinese Academy of Sciences
>>>made a visit, according to the institute?s website. He addressed a
>>>meeting of the institute?s leadership with important ?oral and written?
>>>instructions from China?s president, Xi Jinping, regarding ?a complex
>>>and grave situation?.
>>>
>>>A later study by academics at Wuhan University located the hotspots in
>>>Wuhan where people were reporting on social media that they needed
>>>treatment for Covid. At the time, the authorities were eager to play
>>>down the suggestion that the city?s Huanan seafood market was the source
>>>of the outbreak; the study was used to show that the initial hotspots in
>>>December and January were several miles away.
>>>
>>>When the study was first published, the Wuhan institute was not marked
>>>on the map it provided. So a report by the US Senate did just that ? and
>>>found the institute right next to the biggest hotspot in the month
>>>before the province was locked down on January 23. The first case in
>>>Britain was recorded a week later.
>>>
>>>Even before the West was told a mysterious virus was killing people in
>>>Wuhan, the Chinese authorities were beginning an information clampdown.
>>>
>>>If a country could inoculate its population against its own secret
>>>virus,
>>
>> If...
>>
>>>it might
>>
>> It might...
>>
>>>have a weapon to shift the balance of world powerIf a country could
>>>inoculate its population against its own secret virus, it might have a
>>>weapon to shift the balance of world power If a country could inoculate
>>>its population against its own secret virus, it might have a weapon to
>>>shift the balance of world power AP In the first months of the pandemic,
>>>there was a strong desire among Chinese scientists to head off to the
>>>bat caves in Yunnan to see whether they could find a place where Covid
>>>may have originated.
>>>
>>>Dr Alice Hughes said: ?Every CAS research institute was prioritised to
>>>go out and form these working groups to do more sampling.?
>>>
>>>However, there was a no-go area: the Moijang mine. Seven of Hughes?s
>>>team headed to the mine in June 2020, including Camping Huang, the PhD
>>>student who had investigated the miners? mystery illness soon after they
>>>died.
>>>
>>>When they arrived, they were told the Moijang mine was closed, so they
>>>sampled bats in another abandoned copper mine nearby. On the first day
>>>of their work, police arrived, seized the samples and took them to their
>>>station, where they were interrogated and detained for 48 hours.
>>>
>>>Officers also went to their hotel and seized the samples they had
>>>collected from elsewhere. Even though the team had approval to test in
>>>the area, they were ordered to leave. ?We did provide documentation to
>>>show we were there legally,? said Hughes. ?But there was just too much
>>>fear and so they didn?t release those samples.?
>>>
>>>Shi has never revealed whether she returned to the Moijang mine or the
>>>surrounding area after the outbreak. She is still working at the Wuhan
>>>institute.
>>>
>>>Hughes said she was barred from speaking to the media about the research
>>>and was being watched by China?s security service. She said: ?I was told
>>>I was being monitored by the Yunnan Security Bureau for the work that we
>>>had done on bats, which isn?t something you want, especially as a
>>>foreigner in China.?
>>>
>>>Eventually, there was a total clampdown on Covid origin work. Searching
>>>for bat viruses was banned in Yunnan in early 2021 and new restrictions
>>>on foreign researchers made it difficult for Hughes to continue her
>>>work. She left China to take up a post at Hong Kong University earlier
>>>this year.
>>>
>>>Most coronavirus experts in China, she said, were too fearful of the
>>>consequences to examine Covid?s origins.
>>
>> So the origins remain unexamined.
>>
>>>?They haven?t touched it because of the risks associated with working on
>>>it.
>>>
>>>?China has moved to a state where they can say what they want to be the
>>>case ? they can cherry-pick data that fits that narrative and prevent
>>>the collection of data that could prove inconvenient. I think that it is
>>>very dangerous.?
>>
>> An investigator said: ?We were rock-solid confident that this was
>> likely..."
>>
>> Sure you were.
>
>One might do well to not dismiss the article. I know I'm going
>to keep my eye out for more news.

Elvis lives
Kennedy was assassinated
Diana was...

This issue will never be resolved most likely because china will not
cooperate in finding out. As it is, it remains fodder for feverish
imaginations; and will continue to get continued news attention for a
long time, as it has for a long time.

In the end, if conclusive real evidence were to appear that china
deliberately devised this virus and released it on the world, then
what? Then nothing. We already know they are devious, self serving,
marvelously abitious, etc. So nothing. Nations will continue to try
to deal with the reality, some will align and some not.
--
Noah Sombrero

Creon

unread,
Jun 12, 2023, 6:17:45 AM6/12/23
to
[snip]
On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 10:06:05 -0700 (PDT), Ned wrote:
>
> You know, looking over the article and discussion, I'm going to posit
> another Internet Law. This might actually be a generalized form of
> DeMyer's Second Law (see below, #8). But it might go something like
> this:
>
> Ned Ludd's 3rd law: The validity of the central point of any article
> posted to the internet is inversely proportional to the length of the
> article proposing it.

Agreed. However, the Times article has to lay out its entire
case, because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

The limitations of English in conveying the information shouldn't
shut you out of discussions with more than trivial import. You are too
valuable a person for that to happen, and I hope you might consider
reading the article.

Please consider reading it, if only for the news about how
mice embryos were given a gene to cause the lungs to be
human-like, which was used (it is claimed) to rapidly
evolve generations of more and more lethal viruses.

(What kind of James Bond Villain / Science Fiction
Evil Mastermind comes up with *that*?)


>
> Ned
>
> P.S. And do, by all means, go find out if the Wuhan virus came from a
> lab leak by asking the fucking Energy Department about it!

How do you mean?

>
>
> LAWS OF THE INTERNET
>
> The Overriding Law of the Internet: The Thing We Talk About is the Thing
> We Love.

I love peace.

🖖☮

But to make an omelette...
Can't remember if this is from 4chan or some Internet Purity list.
Love your list!

--
-c

Julian

unread,
Jun 12, 2023, 7:08:10 AM6/12/23
to
On 12/06/2023 11:17, Creon wrote:
> [snip]
> On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 10:06:05 -0700 (PDT), Ned wrote:
>>
>> You know, looking over the article and discussion, I'm going to posit
>> another Internet Law. This might actually be a generalized form of
>> DeMyer's Second Law (see below, #8). But it might go something like
>> this:
>>
>> Ned Ludd's 3rd law: The validity of the central point of any article
>> posted to the internet is inversely proportional to the length of the
>> article proposing it.
>
> Agreed. However, the Times article has to lay out its entire
> case, because extraordinary claims require extrardinary evidence.

One would be hard-pressed to find an investigative journalism team
with a better reputation and track record than ST Insight's.

Insight is the investigative team of the British newspaper The Sunday
Times. The project was begun by Clive Irving in 1963.
An early investigation was into the Profumo affair.
Insight is known for revealing in 1967 that the defector to Russia, Kim
Philby, was the third man in the Cambridge Spy ring;
for investigating the thalidomide controversy;
for revealing the secret manufacture of nuclear weapons by Israel.
In 2011, it exposed the FIFA cash for votes scandal.

Creon

unread,
Jun 12, 2023, 8:10:44 AM6/12/23
to
Came across this:

https://news.yahoo.com/top-chinese-scientist-concedes-that-coronavirus-may-have-leaked-from-wuhan-lab-181714446.html

About 11 days ago, a Chinese scientist told the BBC, in effect, not
to rule anything out -- including (it was understood) the
possibility of a leak from the lab.

--
-c

Wilson

unread,
Jun 12, 2023, 9:40:21 AM6/12/23
to
All viruses mutate on their own. Cold and flu viruses do it all the time.


Noah Sombrero

unread,
Jun 12, 2023, 9:48:20 AM6/12/23
to
The word on the street is that mutations happen when dna is struck by
atomic particles. That could be human generated radiation or
particles from outer space. For most creatures, this needs to happen
before or during very early development of an egg. For viruses, since
they are simply a rogue piece of dna, it can happen anytime.
--
Noah Sombrero

Ned

unread,
Jun 12, 2023, 11:26:36 AM6/12/23
to
On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 3:17:45 AM UTC-7, Creon wrote:
> [snip]
> On Sun, 11 Jun 2023 10:06:05 -0700 (PDT), Ned wrote:
> >
> > P.S. And do, by all means, go find out if the Wuhan virus came from a
> > lab leak by asking the fucking Energy Department about it!
>
> How do you mean?
>

OK...

---
U.S. Government Divided On Covid Lab Leak Theory - Here’s
Where Each Agency Stands
Feb 27, 2023, 03:43pm EST
Updated Mar 1, 2023, 10:13am EST
TOPLINE The U.S. Energy Department has reportedly concluded with
“low confidence” the coronavirus leaked from a lab, reigniting a debate
over the origins of the pandemic, with some federal agencies believing
the virus spread naturally from animals to humans while others have
backed the theory—which many experts deem feasible but unlikely -
that it spread from a lab accident.

- National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Disease: The agency
has said evidence suggests the virus originated in nature and spread
from an unidentified animal host to humans, citing bats as a possible
origin source—Dr. Anthony Fauci, the agency’s longtime former head,
has said in the past he’s open-minded to the possibility of a lab leak,
but he thinks a natural origin of the virus is more likely.

- Centers for Disease Control: The agency also links the origin of the
virus to bats, according to its website, but during a 2021 congressional
hearing, CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky called a lab leak “one
possibility.”

- Intelligence Community: U.S. intelligence agencies are divided on
whether the virus spread naturally or accidentally leaked from a lab,
and think both theories are plausible, the National Intelligence
Council said in a report released October 2021, but they ruled out
the possibility that the virus was developed as a biological weapon
and assessed the virus was not genetically engineered.

- Department of Energy: The agency now thinks the coronavirus
probably leaked from a lab, but that’s a “low confidence” assessment,
the Wall Street Journal and New York Times reported Sunday (the
agency—which weighed in because it oversees a network of U.S.
labs—previously was undecided, the Journal reported).

- Federal Bureau of Investigation: The law enforcement agency
“has for quite some time now” concluded that the virus originated
accidentally from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a Chinese lab
that worked on coronaviruses, FBI Directory Christopher Wray
told Fox News in February.

- Other Intelligence Agencies: Four unknown agencies and the
National Intelligence Council reportedly believe with “low confidence”
humans caught the virus naturally through animals rather than
through a lab incident, unchanged from the 2021 NIC report.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/anafaguy/2023/02/27/us-government-divided-on-covid-lab-leak-theory-heres-where-each-agency-stands/?sh=73995f0e1a55
---

The MOST you get out of all this this is "low confidence" guesses
from a minority of the departments involved, and I want you to
stare at the following statement from the department that has raised
all the dust about this...

"The agency now thinks the coronavirus probably leaked
from a lab, but that’s a 'low confidence' assessment."

This is bullshit on the face of it. If you have 'low confidence'
in something, you can't use the word 'probably' on it. It shows
a fundamental ignorance of how mathematics works.

But the ENERGY department could make a statement like that
because the Energy Department is and always has been run
and controlled by a bunch of shithead Texans.

And WHY the Energy department is allowed have an opinion
about disease epidemiology is a conundrum known only to God.

And, without getting TOO paranoid about all this, WHY do a
bunch of shithead Texans want the country to believe that China
unleased Covid on America?

I don't know. Maybe the billions they get from defense spending
isn't enough anymore, and they need a little boost for their yearly
bonuses.

Ned

Wilson

unread,
Jun 12, 2023, 12:32:47 PM6/12/23
to
Apparently within the dark and twisted labyrinths that make up the
leviathan that is our national government, the DOE runs a whole bunch of
national scientific laboratories.

https://www.energy.gov/national-laboratories

Why them? Who the hell knows.

https://www.energy.gov/about-us

It says the DOE was created in 1977, so another legacy of the era that
also brought us that failure of a peanut farmer from Georgia. But they
say nothing about a bunch of "shithead Texans" running the thing.


Master of In/sanity

unread,
Jun 13, 2023, 1:07:28 AM6/13/23
to
These strucks of dna by atomic radiation constitute mostly in a
degenarative (destruction of RNA) outcome and don't lead to constructive
changes and to Wilson viruses are not considered lifeforms that are
prone to evolution but more of a biological robot maybe even some alien
scientists invented them who knows!

Noah Sombrero

unread,
Jun 13, 2023, 10:10:25 AM6/13/23
to
Yes, almost all mutations are not adaptive. But once in a while. That
is why evolution takes millions of years.

> and don't lead to constructive
>changes and to Wilson viruses are not considered lifeforms that are
>prone to evolution but more of a biological robot

Insects are like that too. Are viruses lifeforms? It is debatable,
but

The reproduce
They feed on other life forms
They share the same biochemical basis
Yes they do evolve

But they are not very smart. And they don't have a cellular
structure.
Definitions are shifting sand, dependent on consensual reality.
A lifeform is whatever we can agree it is.

>maybe even some alien
>scientists invented them who knows!
--
Noah Sombrero

Noah Sombrero

unread,
Jun 13, 2023, 11:30:41 AM6/13/23
to
On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 10:10:22 -0400, Noah Sombrero <fed...@fea.st>
wrote:
The sands have become especially shifty since the internet.

For instance, if you believe there is a monster under your bed, but
everybody else does not, the pressure to give up on the belief is
rather strong.

But now, with the internet, it is possible to connect with other
under-bed believers who agree with you that you do have a monster
under your bed. You get to choose which group you agree with. But
that is not consensual reality. It is no longer possible to decide
whether you have a monster under your bed this way. Tough luck for
humans.

Wilson

unread,
Jun 14, 2023, 11:09:36 AM6/14/23
to
On 6/11/2023 5:59 AM, Julian wrote:
> Fresh evidence drawn from confidential files reveals Chinese scientists
> spliced together deadly pathogens shortly before the pandemic, the
> Sunday Times Insight team report
>
> Scientists in Wuhan working alongside the Chinese military were
> combining the world’s most deadly coronaviruses to create a new mutant
> virus just as the pandemic began.
>
> Investigators who scrutinised top-secret intercepted communications and
> scientific research believe Chinese scientists were running a covert
> project of dangerous experiments, which caused a leak from the Wuhan
> Institute of Virology and started the Covid-19 outbreak.
>
> The US investigators say one of the reasons there is no published
> information on the work is because it was done in collaboration with
> researchers from the Chinese military, which was funding it and which,
> they say, was pursuing bioweapons.


First People Sickened By COVID-19 Were Chinese Scientists At Wuhan
Institute Of Virology, Say US Government Sources

Report by Michael Shellenberger, Matt Taibbi , and Alex Gutentag

Sources within the US government say that three of the earliest people
to become infected with SARS-CoV-2 were Ben Hu, Yu Ping, and Yan Zhu.
All were members of the Wuhan lab suspected to have leaked the pandemic
virus.

As such, not only do we know there were WIV scientists who had developed
COVID-19-like illnesses in November 2019, but also that they were
working with the closest relatives of SARS-CoV-2, and inserting
gain-of-function features unique to it.

When a source was asked how certain they were that these were the
identities of the three WIV scientists who developed symptoms consistent
with COVID-19 in the fall of 2019, we were told, “100%”

https://public.substack.com/p/first-people-sickened-by-covid-19

Noah Sombrero

unread,
Jun 14, 2023, 12:24:00 PM6/14/23
to
a source?

>was asked how certain they were that these were the
>identities of the three WIV scientists who developed symptoms consistent
>with COVID-19 in the fall of 2019, we were told, “100%”

Good, now how certain are they that they were the first?

>https://public.substack.com/p/first-people-sickened-by-covid-19

The article says "three of the first."

That's better. Could be they have picked it up at the market? I bet
you are ready to venture a *guess* though.
--
Noah Sombrero
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