A modified glop recipe

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jason molinari

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Jan 12, 2006, 12:33:54 PM1/12/06
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Many of you know john's glop bread, which is really very outstanding.
My one complaint was that it was just TOO airy. My fiance' called it
airbread, it had very little substance, forcing me to eat about 1/3 of
a batch for a sandwich at lunch.
So i slowly started modifying it, removing water to make it a touch
more dense. I've come to 2 great variations which i'll share.Another
advantage, is that in the beating phase it takes far less time to form
a ball. About 10 minutes instead of 30. The gluten is still well
developed. Both these breads have fantastic crumb structure, like a
perfect ciabatta. You can see a pic of variation 1 :
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jasonmolinari/detail?.dir=/6fe3&.dnm=ab5are2.jpg&.src=ph

variatio 1:
500g bread blour
475g water
2 tsp. yeast
15g salt.

follow John's directions

variation 2 has become my standard. Semolina flour adds a nice
yellowish color and a lot of flavor.
350g bread flour
150g semolina flour
475-485g water
2tsp. yeast
15g salt

follow directions as for above.

Enjoy. And thanks john for the initial amazing recipe! this is my
weekly bread.

Dave Bell

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Jan 12, 2006, 3:18:04 PM1/12/06
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On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, jason molinari wrote:

> Many of you know john's glop bread, which is really very outstanding.

> perfect ciabatta. You can see a pic of variation 1 :
> http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jasonmolinari/detail?.dir=/6fe3&.dnm=ab5are2.jpg&.src=ph
>
> follow John's directions
>

Jason, that's a beautiful ciabatta!

Now, John has posted a number of breads over the past year. Which, in
particular, did you start from, so I can make sure I have the directions?

Dave

Dee Randall

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Jan 12, 2006, 3:39:08 PM1/12/06
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"jason molinari" <jmol121...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137087234.7...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

The picture is stunning!
Definitely wanting to clarify:
The picture is definitely your recipe: Variation 1?
Is Variation 2 your recipe as well?

Can you provide a link to John's recipe from which you are doing the
variations?
Thanks so much.
Dee


KingOfGlop

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Jan 12, 2006, 9:19:34 PM1/12/06
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Lovely bread. Stunning structure. Nice to see the Gospel of Glop
spreading.

"Not bad" (Brit understatement, a lot more of a compliment than it
sounds<g>)

Love

John

jason molinari

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Jan 13, 2006, 2:13:14 PM1/13/06
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Hey all. Yes. Those are my ciabatte.. thanks for the compliements. The
picture is my version 1, before i tried adding semolina flour. Version
2 of mine looks similar but has a yellow tinge from the semolina.
Both variation 1 and 2 are my recipe..but both based on John's. My next
step is to try the same recipe but make a poolish out of some of
flour/water. I know that will take away the convenience of John's glop,
but it may give it a better falvor. We'll see!

For a pictorial progression see my post in this italian forum :

http://www.gennarino.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2493&start=15

This is the one i based it off of:

John's Quick Cocodrillo Substitute<g>

Direct method, lean rustic dough, commercial yeast. Days to make, 1.

Yield 4 small-medium loaves.

500 gm 12%+ protein white flour.
550 gm warm (30C) water
1 1/2 tsp instant yeast
10 gm salt

Mix til roughly combined, with the paddle, and rest for 10 min or so.
Still
with the paddle, beat seven bells out of the glop on medium-high (3 on
a
Kenwood) until the dough is slapping around the bowl and clearing the
bottom
completely. This will take about 25 - 30 min and nothing much will
happen for
at least 15-20.

Tip the dough (glop) into an oiled bowl or similar, I use a
cylindrical,
transparent, polyethylene food container with a tight sealing lid which
makes
it very easy to see the progress of the rise, and leave, tightly
covered, to
triple. It MUST triple or this recipe will not work!.

Pour onto a well floured surface, shake more flour over, divide into 4
rough
squares and plump,them up by sliding an angled bench knife under the
dough.
Shake flour, generously over the loaves and their surroundings and
leave until
extremely puffy and wobbly. about 45 minutes - just about right for
heating the
oven to flat out max. Take no prisoners.

Using a floured bench knife free each loaf from the counter and,
gently, flip
it over, pick it up,using floured hands and, gently, stretch it to
about 10"
long and onto a peel, Superpeel (thank you Gary) or parchment. The
dough very
nearly stretches under it's own weight. You must move quickly. It will
look as
if you've totally and permanently deflated the bread. Trust Uncle John,
he may
be a little wierd on occasions and is prone to "running off at the
keyboard"
but he's actually done this stretch 'n' bake loads of times and it
always
works. Straight into the raging oven, down to 220 after 10 min, bake
to
internal temp at least 96C and you can go as high as 98C if the crust
doesn't
brown too quickly. You will not believe the oven spring. I baked the
bread in 2
batches. The bread will pass the "thump the botttom" test long before
the bread
is cooked - You Have Been Warned!

jason molinari

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Jan 13, 2006, 2:15:23 PM1/13/06
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Oh, a 3rd variation i'm working on is glop+ olives. I made a batch this
weekend, using version 2 of my break and added 100g of chopped kalamata
olives at the very very end, and mixed/kneaded with the paddle only for
a few more mins. Turned out very well indeed, but it needs some work
with water ratio to perfect it.

jason

frelkins

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Jan 13, 2006, 3:21:01 PM1/13/06
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jason molinari wrote:
>beat seven bells out of the glop on medium-high (3 on
>a
>Kenwood) until the dough is slapping around the bowl and clearing the
>bottom
>completely. This will take about 25 - 30 min and nothing much will
>happen for
>at least 15-20.

this is the part that has always kept me from trying this recipe. i
have your average kitchen aid stand mixer and i just don't know that
the motor would survive this.i do mix the hammelman pizza dough at
speed 4 -- but only for 3 mins. with the dough hook.

has anyone tried this on kitchen aid and lived to tell about it?

barry

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Jan 13, 2006, 6:47:48 PM1/13/06
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"frelkins" <frel...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1137183661.8...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

I've made several breads at speed 2 on the KA for fairly long times and
nothing happened to the mixer. The critical difference is that this recipe
is a small batch of very loose dough, so all you are doing, really, is
running the machine. If this were a very tight dough, say a bagel dough, and
you were making a double or triple batch, then you would get the dough hook
stalled from time to time, and that's what usually strips the gear in the
head.

The two most frequent contributors to KA failure are large batchs of stiff
dough that stall the mixer and lack of maintenance, i.e., lubrication.

I don't see anything in this recipe that would burn out a KA or a Kenwood,
although I don't know much about Kenwoods, or Kenwouldn'ts, for that
matter.

Barry


Dave Bell

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Jan 13, 2006, 10:46:31 PM1/13/06
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jason molinari wrote:
> Hey all. Yes. Those are my ciabatte..

And they, with dear John's original posting have inspired me (finally!)
to try it tonight. Now, I bake with Spelt (Farro), and it is normally,
well, gloppier than wheat, and has a quicker to form, more delicate
gluten. I watched (and listened to) the KA carefully, and after about 10
minutes, it was working harder slowing noticeably. In less than 12
minutes, the glop had cleared the bowl, and climbed the spindle, despite
my efforts to beat it back! I cleared the paddle, let it sit for a
minute, and gave it a short burst more, where it immediately cleaned the
bowl and hugged the paddle. It's now rising, passing the 1.5x mark. I'll
post pics tomorrow!

Dave

graham

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Jan 14, 2006, 1:03:27 AM1/14/06
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"Dave Bell" <db...@TheSPAMFREEBells.net> wrote in message
news:ru_xf.648$H71...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...

In the original coccodrillo recipe (the mother of all glops) Field states
that you may have to turn off the mixer once or twice to keep it from
overheating.
Graham


Dave Bell

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Jan 14, 2006, 2:55:30 AM1/14/06
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graham wrote:
>> "Dave Bell" <db...@TheSPAMFREEBells.net> wrote in message
>> It's now rising, passing the 1.5x mark. I'll post pics tomorrow!
>
> In the original coccodrillo recipe (the mother of all glops) Field states
> that you may have to turn off the mixer once or twice to keep it from
> overheating.
> Graham

The KA ran nice and cool, never complained, just that it slowed a
trifle, as the gluten built.

Well, this is indeed a winner!

The rise never quite reached the triple point, but started to fall back
around 2.5+ times. Time to pour it out and proceed! This is beyond glop,
this is siliputty!! Almost transparent, incredibly sticky, and
definitely not handleable, but light, airy, and very much alive.

I finally managed to split the glob into four roughly equal parts, and
roll them onto parchment covered trays. Let them rise again for about 40
minutes, then into the raging inferno, heated to 550F for 45 minutes.
After 10 minutes (with a few squirts of water on the oven floor in the
first 5 minutes), they had sprung nicely, were starting to brown, and
smelled wonderful! Dropped the temp to 420F, swapped the trays, and let
them go another 10 minutes, then out to the cooling rack.

One loaf - the one I cut to photograph the crumb - is quite gone. The
other three will be sandwiches tomorrow, for sure!

As promised, I put photos up at Photobucket:

http://photobucket.com/albums/a395/dbell5/

Dave

KingOfGlop

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Jan 14, 2006, 9:38:45 AM1/14/06
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Good result, Dave,

Excellent structure, lovely open bread, much more open than normal
spelt bread.

Is this white spelt flour you're using?

I only have wholegrain spelt which may be healthier but doesn't give me
the volume I want.

Love

John

graham

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Jan 14, 2006, 10:07:54 AM1/14/06
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"KingOfGlop" <wcs...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1137249525.7...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
John, I know this is sacrilegious, but wouldn't cutting back on the
hydration a bit, help with this low gluten flour? Do you sieve the whole
spelt flour?
Graham


graham

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Jan 14, 2006, 10:09:39 AM1/14/06
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"Dave Bell" <db...@TheSPAMFREEBells.net> wrote in message
news:S72yf.709$H71...@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
Beautiful bread, Dave! I wonder if cutting the hydration back to, say, 100%
might help with this flour.
Graham


Dave Bell

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Jan 14, 2006, 1:00:43 PM1/14/06
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Thank you, John - for the kind words and mostly, for the recipe!
Yes, this is unbleached white spelt. I agree that whole spelt would be
healthier, but can't eat it; it affects me almost like eating white
wheat. It's all a matter of degrees and dosage. Even too much spelt
starts to get to me, so I have to go easy.
This process, and the high hydration, certainly led to the open
structure. Most spelt breads (particulary comemrcial ones) look like
wonder bread, but are dense and heavy. This is light, chewy, just great!

Dave

Dave Bell

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Jan 14, 2006, 1:05:27 PM1/14/06
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graham wrote:

> Beautiful bread, Dave! I wonder if cutting the hydration back to, say, 100%
> might help with this flour.
> Graham

Thank you, Graham!

Actually, this is slightly under 100%, from Jason Molinari's version 1.
John did orignally call for higher,


500 gm 12%+ protein white flour.
550 gm warm (30C) water

Jason's recipe is,


500g bread blour
475g water
2 tsp. yeast
15g salt

I used warm water, at Jason's ratio...

Dave

KingOfGlop

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Jan 15, 2006, 12:21:08 PM1/15/06
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Sacrilegious? It's not the Gospel According to John, Patron Saint of
Glop<g>

Love

John

graham

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Jan 15, 2006, 3:10:09 PM1/15/06
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"KingOfGlop" <wcs...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1137345668.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
We stretch and fold at your feet!<G>
Graham


Dave Bell

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Jan 15, 2006, 3:58:03 PM1/15/06
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*Always* stretch properly, before exercise...

Dave Bell

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Jan 15, 2006, 4:26:09 PM1/15/06
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jason molinari wrote:

That first batch went so well, I'm going to have to try one with olives,
as you suggested, probably Kalamatas. Of course, then there's cheddar
and jalapeno, garlic cloves, endless variations!

> For a pictorial progression see my post in this italian forum :
>
> http://www.gennarino.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2493&start=15

By the way, that Rossella from Catania is quite the beauty...

Dave

Fritz

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Jan 16, 2006, 3:57:33 PM1/16/06
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I tried this recipe last night. The bread looks great, cept at four
loaves, they're a bit small. I'd prefer a taller slice. If I were to
half instead of 1/4 the dough would the structure hold up?

Also, I once made a ciabatta type that used some sour milk. The taste
was awesome. Any idea how this might be incorporated?

Thanks,

Fritz

Fritz

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Jan 16, 2006, 4:16:54 PM1/16/06
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On 2006-01-16 15:57:33 -0500, Fritz <mtro...@optonline.net> said:

oh yeah. I should add that using Jasons recipe, I could get the dough
to come together, even after 35 mins in my Bosch at 4. I ended up
adding about 40g rye flour.

jason molinari

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Jan 17, 2006, 4:13:22 PM1/17/06
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I make mine on the kitchenaid, i use speed 4 for beating it.
jason

jason molinari

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Jan 17, 2006, 4:17:22 PM1/17/06
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Glad the bread worked with spely flour. When you add the olives add
them only the last few minutes and don't mix it as violently, or you'll
end up with purple bread:)

jason molinari

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Jan 17, 2006, 4:18:49 PM1/17/06
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Fritz, i thikn dividing the dough into 2 should work, i now devide mine
into 3 to get slightly larger loaves.
odd that your bread didn't come together..

Dave Bell

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Jan 17, 2006, 9:42:52 PM1/17/06
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Oh, for sure!! I figured on manually folding them in...

Thanks,
Dave

VJ

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Jan 18, 2006, 10:46:00 PM1/18/06
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Wheres the sugar???


"jason molinari" <jmol121...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137087234.7...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Many of you know john's glop bread, which is really very outstanding.
> My one complaint was that it was just TOO airy. My fiance' called it
> airbread, it had very little substance, forcing me to eat about 1/3 of
> a batch for a sandwich at lunch.
> So i slowly started modifying it, removing water to make it a touch
> more dense. I've come to 2 great variations which i'll share.Another
> advantage, is that in the beating phase it takes far less time to form
> a ball. About 10 minutes instead of 30. The gluten is still well
> developed. Both these breads have fantastic crumb structure, like a
> perfect ciabatta. You can see a pic of variation 1 :
>
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jasonmolinari/detail?.dir=/6fe3&.dnm=ab5are2.j
pg&.src=ph
>
> variatio 1:

> 500g bread blour
> 475g water
> 2 tsp. yeast

Dick Margulis

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Jan 19, 2006, 6:09:27 AM1/19/06
to
VJ wrote:
> Wheres the sugar???
>


Why do you ask? Sugar is not a necessary ingredient in bread. Don't get
me wrong; it is a key ingredient in some types of bread. And perhaps the
sorts of bread you enjoy all contain sugar. That's fine. But the bread
under discussion does not contain sugar.

KingOfGlop

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Jan 19, 2006, 12:49:51 PM1/19/06
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The poster is probably worried that this type of bread contains none of
the 4 essential food groups fat, sugar, alcohol and chocolate.

Love

Jon

Dick Margulis

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Jan 19, 2006, 12:54:07 PM1/19/06
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But isn't it perfect for cleansing the palate BETWEEN courses of the 4
essential food groups?

Fritz

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Jan 19, 2006, 12:55:10 PM1/19/06
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Jon,

I made the recipe the other nite. It worked rather well crust, crumb &
texture were very nice. Flavor was good too.
I was wondering if this bread should get the 3x folding that your
earlier ciabatta recipe got?
Do have a variation that would include milk, or are we back to ciabatta
at that point?

Thanks,

Fritz

KingOfGlop

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Jan 19, 2006, 2:11:48 PM1/19/06
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Fritz wrote:

Earthling,

Your mode of speeech sometimes confuses me. Which recipe? Several have
been mentioned in this thread so far.

I often include milk in Ciabatta either in the form of a milk based
poolish (same as another poolish but with milk instead of water) or
milk powder at about 4-5% of total flour weight, added in the main
dough mix.

Love

John

KingOfGlop

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Jan 19, 2006, 3:01:34 PM1/19/06
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No, Dick,

The traditional palate-cleanser between 4FG dishes is MORE ALCOHOL!

Love

John

Fritz

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Jan 20, 2006, 10:47:20 AM1/20/06
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>>
>> I made the recipe the other nite. It worked rather well crust, crumb &
>> texture were very nice. Flavor was good too.
>> I was wondering if this bread should get the 3x folding that your
>> earlier ciabatta recipe got?
>> Do have a variation that would include milk, or are we back to ciabatta
>> at that point?

> Earthling,


>
> Your mode of speeech sometimes confuses me. Which recipe? Several have
> been mentioned in this thread so far.
>
> I often include milk in Ciabatta either in the form of a milk based
> poolish (same as another poolish but with milk instead of water) or
> milk powder at about 4-5% of total flour weight, added in the main
> dough mix.

I've never been called Earthling before. Thanks!
Sorry the recipe I referred too was this:

500 gm 12%+ protein white flour.
550 gm warm (30C) water

1 1/2 tsp instant yeast
10 gm salt


Thanks,

Fritz

KingOfGlop

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Jan 21, 2006, 4:35:10 AM1/21/06
to
Fritz,

The dough produced by this recipe's intensive mixing does not need
stretch and fold.

Furthermore, if you did give the dough 3 s+f, you would need a lot of
flour to handle the glop and the result would be closer to a Ciabatta
than a Coccodrillo, which is fine, as far as it goes but what would you
gain?

The next time I make a batch of quick Coccodrillo I'll add 5% milk
powder and see what efffect it produces or, if you get there first, let
us know. It should produce a softer crust and longer keeping bread
although the recipe is and was always intended as a quick bread, to be
mixed, baked and eaten as fast as possible<g>
Love

John

VJ

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Jan 21, 2006, 10:12:06 AM1/21/06
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I thought yeast needs sugar to rise. You learn something everyday.

I have a request - can you convert some of the variation recipes into cups
for me?

Thanks

"Fritz" <mtro...@remove.optonline.net> wrote in message
news:2006012010472016807-mtropicl@removeoptonlinenet...

KingOfGlop

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Jan 21, 2006, 12:00:13 PM1/21/06
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I don't do cups.

Love

John

KingOfGlop

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Jan 21, 2006, 12:06:03 PM1/21/06
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p.s.tp

Yeast does need sugar to rise but it doesn't need the baker to add
sugar - the yeast can get enough sugar by breaking down longer chain
polysaccharides with enzymes it secretes and flour too has
starch-splitting enzymes.

Love

John

jason molinari

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Jan 21, 2006, 6:19:06 PM1/21/06
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VJ, cups are highly inaccurate. If you must use cups, 1 cup is about 5
oz. or 140g for flour.
1 cup water is 224g

dan w

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Feb 3, 2006, 2:12:06 AM2/3/06
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question- flour bags seem to all say 120g per cup (30g per 1/4 cup), why do
you say 140g?

dan w


"jason molinari" <jmol121...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1137885546.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

Del Cecchi

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Feb 3, 2006, 12:57:18 PM2/3/06
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Get out your scale and your cup and your flour. See what you get. My
money is that you get closer to 5 ounces or 140 grams than you do to 120
grams (4.28 oz)

--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
strategies or opinions.”

dan w

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Feb 3, 2006, 6:29:37 PM2/3/06
to
no argument there, as my orriginal recipes in gram weights gave 146g per cup
flour (ap). i guess i was just wondering how all flour bags i've seen have
120g per cup. is it bacause they use sifted flour, carefully placed in cup
measurement, or something? nbd.

dan w


"Del Cecchi" <cecchi...@us.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:44hjrvF...@individual.net...

drgon...@gmail.com

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Feb 10, 2006, 10:15:59 AM2/10/06
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How long does the initial rise usually take? Are we talking the normal
2 hours or so or much less/more?

I know it's different depending on your kitchen. But I'm trying to plan
my Saturday :)

Thanks.

jason molinari

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Feb 10, 2006, 11:25:46 AM2/10/06
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I it usually about 2-2.5 hours for me.
jason

drgon...@gmail.com

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Feb 13, 2006, 11:03:16 AM2/13/06
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Alright I did this on Sunday.

Here are my thoughts:

Mixing
---
Dough came together very quickly, it was climbing the paddle almost
immediatly. I could let it go on 3 or 4 on my Kitchen Aid for about 2
minutes, then I'd have to push it down to stop it from gumming up the
works. I decided it was done after about 15-20 minutes of wrestling and
when It was coating the paddle as in Jason's photo on the forum
(thanks).

The dough was very warm from the constant paddling it took.


Primary Ferment
----
Rise took about 3.5 hours. I think i might have let it go a bit too
long but that's how long it took to triple. I put it in a well oiled 2
Quart juice container that we have in the US and covered with plastic
wrap. It's tall and narrow and has marks on the side for easy watching
of the rise.


Shaping
---
Well I floured the counter. Plopped it out. Cut it in fours and left
for 45 minutes while the oven heated to 500 F. After 45 minutes, I
stretched to about 10 inches and put on the parchment.

Baking
---
Baked on my pizza stone with the parchment which I slid directly on off
my improvised peel (baking sheet). Did 2 1 cup steam treatments at the
start and 30 seconds later. After 10 minutes I turned the heat down to
450 F and rotated the loaves. I let it bake about another 10 minutes or
so at which time the center of the loaf was at about 210 F and the
color was a nice red. The other 2 loaves went in after these. I noticed
no difference in spring.

Eating
--
I converted Jason's 15 g of salt to ml then to teaspoons which gave me
3 teaspoons of salt -- way too high i thought but I did it anyway - big
mistake. The salt is not overwhelming and would probably be pleasent
with some olive oil. But don't try to make french toast with it. I
think 2 teaspoons of salt would have been better or maybe only 1.5, I
think i just converted wrong.

Crumb
--
Nice translucent webbing, just what I was going for. Big holes finally
-- take that Reinhart! (I only got small holes with his ciabatta
formula).

My only problem is I had a severe case of flying crust going which I
don't know is just something you have to live with, with this airy
bread or maybe I let these things proof a bit too long.

Thoughts on the flying crust?

I ate two loaves right away and froze the other 2 after wrapping and
bagging. Overall a great experience, easy and fun to play with dough. I
can post photos if anyone is interested.

Dave Bell

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Feb 13, 2006, 2:36:19 PM2/13/06
to
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 drgon...@gmail.com wrote:

> Eating
> --
> I converted Jason's 15 g of salt to ml then to teaspoons which gave me
> 3 teaspoons of salt -- way too high i thought but I did it anyway - big
> mistake. The salt is not overwhelming and would probably be pleasent
> with some olive oil. But don't try to make french toast with it. I
> think 2 teaspoons of salt would have been better or maybe only 1.5, I
> think i just converted wrong.

Your conversion would have been correct *if* salt had the same density as
water! Sadly, this is one of those times a scale is just so much better.

On the other hand, this is not the sort of bread I'd make French Toast out
of, anyway...


Dave

drgon...@gmail.com

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Feb 13, 2006, 3:05:00 PM2/13/06
to
Ah, alright that makes sense. My wife is a scientist and she neglected
to inform me of that point :)

As for the french toast, i just had a vision of using this airy style
bread as an ultra french toat-waffle hybrid! The holes would be perfect
for holding syrup!

jason molinari

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Feb 13, 2006, 4:15:17 PM2/13/06
to
Glad it turned out well, Drgonzo. Covnerting the salt to volume is a
bad idea as the volume will change drastically between kosher salt, and
regular salt. Either way, as long as you use your own measurement, and
keep it consistant, it won't matter (always 2 tsp, or always 1.5 tsp.
or whatever).

by flying crust do you mean where the crust has come off the crumb? If
so, lower the hydration a touch next time, i noticed this a lot on
John's bread which was even higher hydration than mine. Play with the
formula a bit until you get what you like. the lower hydration,
generally the smaller the holes and the denser the bread.

jason

drgon...@gmail.com

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Feb 13, 2006, 5:32:43 PM2/13/06
to
By flying crust I mean what is commonly reffered to as 'shelling'. So
the crust has seperated from the crumb at the top. This makes it kind
of hard to make a sandwich out of it :)

I think it's just a very fine line with this style of bread, because
the only thing that seperates a flying crust from a regular crust is a
few delicate strands of dough.


Overall I am very happy, I am starting to join the gospel of glop. The
next thing on the list -- glop brioche from the king's recipe!

Dave Bell

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Feb 13, 2006, 5:54:54 PM2/13/06
to
On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 drgon...@gmail.com wrote:

I think you'll be pleased with it! My first try came out a tiny bit dry,
but they were small loaves. Next time, I'm packing the pans more full.
This is practically a Panatone, if that's the direction you're looking
for...

Dave

KingOfGlop

unread,
Feb 13, 2006, 7:59:03 PM2/13/06
to
Are you inverting the loaves before baking?

Love

John

drgon...@gmail.com

unread,
Feb 13, 2006, 8:43:39 PM2/13/06
to
No sir, I did not invert them. That sounds like that would fix it duh.

KingOfGlop

unread,
Feb 13, 2006, 9:47:24 PM2/13/06
to
I proof the loaves on a heavily floured counter, then , when proofed,
flour the tops, turn the loaves over, using a floured bench knife, pick
them up and transfer them to the SuperPeel as they stretch under their
own weight. A little tricky but it gives excellent results.

Love

John

fortune elkins

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Feb 14, 2006, 11:07:25 PM2/14/06
to
can glop be made with whole wheat or wholemeal?

jason molinari

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Feb 15, 2006, 9:50:35 PM2/15/06
to
I have no idea. Hopefully john can answer your question.

PS: fortune, funny to see you here from alt.coffee :)

fortune elkins

unread,
Feb 15, 2006, 10:48:14 PM2/15/06
to
>a.c.

but jason i've been here for years and years. i just don't post often
because my husband only likes a certain range o' bread, which i got down
years ago.

however, modified glop seems interesting, altho' i still worry that 10
mins. at speed 4 would kill my kitchenaid. i wouldn't dare the original
glop's 30 minutes.

i also worry that so much beating would over-oxidize the flour, which
prof. calvel tells us is all bad. very bad.

still, never know til you try, hmm?

Dave Bell

unread,
Feb 15, 2006, 11:56:19 PM2/15/06
to
fortune elkins wrote:

> however, modified glop seems interesting, altho' i still worry that 10
> mins. at speed 4 would kill my kitchenaid. i wouldn't dare the original
> glop's 30 minutes.

The dough is so slack, that the KA is practically idling! I was a little
worried before I tried it, but it didn't even warm up noticeably.

> i also worry that so much beating would over-oxidize the flour, which
> prof. calvel tells us is all bad. very bad.

And that produces what sort of flaw? It may have oxidized it, but I
thought the reulst was very good...

> still, never know til you try, hmm?

Yep!

Dave

Wayne Boatwright

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Feb 16, 2006, 2:03:16 AM2/16/06
to
On Wed 15 Feb 2006 09:56:19p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Dave Bell?

Is there a place where I can find the original "glop" recipe?

TIA

--
Wayne Boatwright ożo
____________________

BIOYA

fortune elkins

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Feb 16, 2006, 5:54:35 AM2/16/06
to
>flaw

"there is thus a physicochemical process that accompanies the purely
mechanical action of dough mixing. under the combined effects of
increased mixing speed and cumulative mixing time, this process brings
on the phenomenon of dough oxidation. within limits, oxidation has the
short-term efects of increasing the strength of the dough, hastening its
physical development, and reducing the length of time necessary for
maturation of the dough.

the process of dough maturation is thus linked, through the degreee of
development of the gluten network, to the level of oxidation reached in
the mixing process. furthermore as the mechanical development and
oxidation of the dough increase together, the process of dough
maturation will accelerate over time. "

so here prof. calvel introduces the subject iin his "taste of bread,"
page 29.

he continues on page 30:

"when mixing intensity if limited (i.e. slow mixing with moderate
mechanical working of the dough), the maturation is nearly non-existent.
alcoholic fermentation will e needed to complete the maturation, so
bakershould shedule a relatively long primary fermentaton stage, as was
done beforethe 1955-1960period, to achieve a natural maturation o the
dough.

since the development of the gluten film is also quite limited with the
slower mixing method, the volume of the loaves will be slightly below
average. however, they will be properly raised and their flavor and
taste will be quite distinctive. they will be appetizing and good
tasting, with an extended shelf life.

on the other hand, a very high level of oxidation is achieved and dough
maturation is greatly accelerated whenever:

* intensive mixing methods are used,
* bean flour of other oxidizing additives are present,
* salt addition is delayed until late in the mixing process,
*a large portion of the dough is continually in contact with atmospheric
oxygen

The use of these practices (along with the improper use of ascorbic
acid) produces an artificial maturation of the dough.

This artificial maturation results in an almost complete elimination of
primary fermentation or pointage and deprives the dough of the organic
acids it would otherwise produce. it is the absence of these acids that
diminishes the taste, flavor, and shelf life of bread.

however, an even more serious matter is that the uncontrolled oxidation
that occurs duirng intensive mixing causes bleaching of the dough.
further along in the breadmaking process, this will mean that the crumb
poriton of the loaf will be bleached, resulting in the lessening and
general deterioration of the taste of the bread.

in dough production, the amount of mechanical work and oxidation used
should be in close accord with actual mixing requirements."

prof. calvel, taste of bread, page 30.

next to the text quoted above, in table 3-1, he gives mixing times for
different doughs, broken out by oblique mixer or spiral mixer. these
times are much less than the 30 mins. of the original glop.

dr. calvel seems to prefer spiral or dual-arm mixers and cautions
against oblique ones. the text discusses planetary mixers, aka vertical
spindle mixers. i believe kitchenaid mixers are generally categorized as
planetary action mixers, although they have different speeds than their
small hobart tabletop models, of course!

the recommended times for these mixers in a "traditional" type bread
technique -- tasty, holey, long-keeping, long-rising -- 3 minutes at
first speed, then an autolyze, then 7 minutes more.

of course, this is the 10 minutes of the modified glop, but i do believe
that the first speed of the tabletop hobart is slower than a speed 4 on
the home kitchenaid.

again, calvel is discussing these big professional mixers which we don't
use at home, and above calvel is criticizing things like the chorleywood
process, where you take a lot of water, some flour, some yeast, and beat
the heck out of it so much the dough doesn't really need to rise at all.

still, in these superhydrated doughs (calvel calls them "pates
mouilles," wet doughs and categorizes 73-76% breads in this category),
calvel is at pains to note in exhibit 3-2:

'the combination of high water content and gentle treatmet of the dough
produces loaves with large irregular holes or cells in the interior and
good keeping quaities. one problem that may occur with this type of
water-rich dough is rapid crust softening, and a gummy or rubbery crust
and crumb is often the result. the high water content also makes it
difficult to form an adequate gluten network, and this may lead to
overmixing and excessive oxidation of the dough."

in short, john himself notes that the glop is a fast bread meant to be
eaten the same day. that's cool and shows that he's aware of the issues.
i'm sure the bread is great for that purpose and many people here have
attested that his method works well.

there's also the issue that as a french person, calvel just isn't gonna
like certain types of italian-style bread on which john has based his
glop. so we have to factor that in mind.

but the question here is oxidation -- by using so much water and beatin'
the heck out of it for a long time, glop oxidizes the dough, and that's
the reason, as john says, it's a same day bread (or you could freeze the
unused portion quickly).

for holey, tasty, long-keeping bread, calvel is the big autolyze fan. he
notes that an autolyze step reduces oxidation by 15%, makes loaves
easier to handle and shape, and produces bread with more natural volume,
natural holes, and a supple crumb.

but again, we are discussing a basic technical difference between french
and italian style bread, imvho. i think even modified glop is meant to
be an italian bread.

still, if i made it, i might personally stick in an autolyze and try
reducing that mixing time to 8 or maybe even 6 minutes. . .no more than
food for thought. . .

KingOfGlop

unread,
Feb 16, 2006, 7:17:09 AM2/16/06
to
Yes but it will not have the same lightness and holes. Also, it is my
impression that the dough produced with wholewheat is much less elastic
and robust when fermented.

Love

John

drgon...@gmail.com

unread,
Feb 16, 2006, 9:24:50 AM2/16/06
to
There is nothing to be scared of.

You're not beating the dough, you're just mixing it. I did it on my
kitchen aid with King Arthur bread flour at a speed of about 3 , if I
went up to 4 it would immediatly climb out of the bowl.

I ended up mixing for 20 minutes with tons of starting and stopping, so
the total time ended up being closer to 10-15. The mixer was fine,
barely warm.

KingOfGlop

unread,
Feb 16, 2006, 11:44:48 AM2/16/06
to
Well, the bread is excellent, my results are replicable, the gummy
crumb problem is easily solved by long, reducing temperature baking
regimes and I, to be blunt, I don't give a sh*t about the opinons of
Calvel, with regards to oxidation of flour.

You are using abstruse theoretical arguments to justify changing a
recipe without first following said recipe, as written, at least once.

"Do I detect hints of irritation in your measured tone of voice?" hints
a friend. Oh well, irritation in the fight against the dull hand of
French conformity is no vice<g>

Love

John

frelkins

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Feb 16, 2006, 12:52:50 PM2/16/06
to

KingOfGlop wrote:
> Well, the bread is excellent, my results are replicable, the gummy
> crumb problem is easily solved by long, reducing temperature baking
> regimes

yes, i completely agreed with that. i am merely thinking aloud about
whether i could get even better results, knowing what we do about
oxidation, if i follow your recipe but insert an autolyze, even tho'
that's sort of mixing french and italian techniques together. i
wouldn't even have posted anything from calvel except i was directly
asked what harm oxidation causes.

that's all. i'm not being critical of you at all and i don't know why
you seem hostile. i certain don't intend any offense.

KingOfGlop

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Feb 16, 2006, 1:39:00 PM2/16/06
to
Whoops!

I sometimes fall into the old routines of the "Special Relationship"
between the French and the English, one characterised by unremitting
hostility, bigotry and a blind refusal on both sides to admit that the
other can EVER be right<g>. A typical English response to any claim of
superority from the French would be "Yeah but our lads stuffed your
lads at Agincourt". Goes back a long way, this particular feud<g>

But that's not your problem and I apologise, unreservedly for the
peevish tone of my response.

Love

John

briarpa...@gmail.com

unread,
Feb 16, 2006, 2:10:46 PM2/16/06
to

Well, each culture has its strong points and its weak points. But on
the culinary front, I would say that French cuisine has caught on just
a wee bit better then British cuisine (much to the dismay of the
world's frog population).

Dave Bell

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Feb 16, 2006, 2:53:05 PM2/16/06
to
On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, fortune elkins wrote:

> >flaw

|

> so here prof. calvel introduces the subject iin his "taste of bread,"
> page 29.

Wow! Thanks for sending all that, Fortune...

If I'd read that first, I might not have tried either the original or the
modified 'glop' breads. But, as you point out, there are clear stylistic
differences between what Dr. Calvel suggests and John's bread. For me, it
never stays around long, anyway, and I like it in a chewy Italian style!

Dave

jason molinari

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Feb 16, 2006, 9:51:14 PM2/16/06
to
I put a 20 minute autolyze in a few batched. Mixing hte dough a few
minutes. Letting it sit for 20, adding salt, and continuing. No
difference in flavor.

Next up is using a poolish.

jason

KingOfGlop

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Feb 17, 2006, 7:34:42 AM2/17/06
to
Jason,

I'm currently working on a poolish variation pf glop. All I've done is
mix the glop roughly, about 1 minute on Kenwood speed 2, left it
overnight and beaten the sh*t out of it the next day.

I've noticed, so far, that the glop comes together quicker after a
poolish, which should surprise nobody and the flavour is a little
deeper and more sour.

My next batch will have a little rye in the mix - rye can usually be
relied on to give a sour flavour boost.

I'll report later.

Love

John

jason molinari

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Feb 17, 2006, 8:31:43 AM2/17/06