French Bread won't brown
Jeff Dodd
only high gluten flour-water-salt-yeast. I let the biga (just flour, water
and yeast) sit overnight and then add additional flour, water and salt and
then knead and proof. Using four cups or so of flour, I'm making two batards
and baking them in a 425 deg. F. oven for 30 minutes, using a perforated
double U bread pan.
My problem is that the loaves won't brown unless I've added sugar to the
dough, which changes the texture. They develop a thick, crispy crust, but
remain pale in color, even if left in the over for another 10 - 15 minutes.
The bread is consistently the best I've ever baked, but is not particuularly
attractive because of the pale, almost white crust. I wonder what I am doing
wrong. I know there must be a way to get these to brown without adding sugar.
Any help or suggestionss would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Jeff
Grandma
"Jeff Dodd" <jef...@best.com> wrote in message
news:9v0bdm$3g2$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
You aren't doing ANYTHING wrong. French loaves without added fat or sugar
don't brown. To force them to brown anyway, beat one egg white with 1
tablespoon of water, then brush over the crust with the mixture about
half-way through baking.
Boron Elgar
wrote:
>
>You aren't doing ANYTHING wrong. French loaves without added fat or sugar
>don't brown. To force them to brown anyway, beat one egg white with 1
>tablespoon of water, then brush over the crust with the mixture about
>half-way through baking.
I'm not sure what the original poster's problem is, but French bread,
by their law, is made of flour, water, salt & yeast. No fat. No sugar.
I have no problem browning it, nor does France.
Surely you can put whatever you like into your bread, but you have to
be careful what you call it and the advice you have given is
incorrect.
Boron
Janet Bostwick
"Boron Elgar" <boron_elgar@"warmmail.com> wrote in message
news:9tk71ucd1f2inse28...@4ax.com...
The bread should turn golden or dark gold like oak, I never have a problem
with this. There is a sourdough bread maker in this state, however, that
produces "brown" and serve baguettes. . .and no matter what you do it is
impossible to get the loaves to color. Their loaves are very sour with the
addition of "sours," which to me smell like vinegar.
Over-proofed loaves will not color properly, but generally they turn a sort
of dead grayish-brown.
Janet
Alan Zelt
First, sugar is not going to cause your bread to brown. I make baguettes
almost every week, and never add any sugar. Second, the temp is too low.
The temp should be about 500 for first six or seven minutes, then down
to 450.
--
Alan
"It's a wine's duty to be red."
........ Harry Waugh
Alan Zelt
Grandma,
When you sent this post, I thought you were just joking. Now, I realize
that you are serious and way wrong. French bread does not contain ANY
fat nor sugar. Best you visit some boulangerie and find out the truth of
this.
Egg/water wash is NOT to brown, but to offer up a sheen.
Rose Kish
I don't normally apply anything to my french breads, but you might
want to try a light wash of milk over the tops of the bread dough
before baking. It bakes right in, and doesn't get sticky.
Roy Basan
There are many reasons as to the cause of this fault.First,if you bake
your bread with dry heat.Crust browning is much better,if the dough
is baked initially with moist heat.Second you are baking at a lower
temperature.Increasing the oven temperature will have an effect also.I
usually bake my crusty breads not lesser than at 440F and in the
presence of steam.Third your dough does not have enough residual
sugars to assist browning.Extended fermentation will deplete the
residual sugars present in the dough.There are flours also that are
deficient in amylase activity(low diastatic activity),responsible for
converting starches to sugars and this will result also in pale
crusted breads.If I encounter this I add diastatic malt flour at 2-5
grams perkilo of the base flour.Browning is the result of the
chemical reaction of sugars and protein.Indeed you used high gluten
but you lack an important material to achieve it(sugar).If you look
deeper,another effect of malt is that during the start of baking
process,assuming you depleted your sugars due to excess
fermentation;the moist heat will gelatinize the ruptured starch
granules ,enabling the malt enzyme(amylase) to act on it, for a brief
moment( before inactivated later on by high heat)to produce enough
sugars that will help crust browning.For your information most
european flours has high diastatic activity,and malt addition is not
needed.Therefore they seldom experience your problem.
Roy
Grandma
"Grandma" <kr...@earthlink.com> wrote in message
news:NlQQ7.42362$WC1.4...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
To those of you who are quick to point out that French bread has no sugar by
definition let me rewrite what I wrote for a bit of clarification, since I
am indeed aware that French has no fat or sugar.
I wrote -
French loaves without added fat or sugar
don't brown
I should have written -
French loaves, without added fat or sugar,
don't brown
or
Because French loaves are without added fat or sugar they don't brown.
Sorry to disagree with you nice folks, but the recipe that I have used for a
couple of decades specifically says "doesn't brown" and I have never once
had them do so by following the recipe. There surely are ways to force a
browner crust - darker pans, egg white wash, higher temp, etc. - but those
aren't in the basic recipe LOL. My sourdough, however, browns like a champ
:)
Janet Bostwick
snip, snip
> To those of you who are quick to point out that French bread has no sugar
by
> definition let me rewrite what I wrote for a bit of clarification, since I
> am indeed aware that French has no fat or sugar.
>
> I wrote -
>
> French loaves without added fat or sugar
> don't brown
>
> I should have written -
>
> French loaves, without added fat or sugar,
> don't brown
>
> or
>
> Because French loaves are without added fat or sugar they don't brown.
>
> Sorry to disagree with you nice folks, but the recipe that I have used for
a
> couple of decades specifically says "doesn't brown" and I have never once
> had them do so by following the recipe. There surely are ways to force a
> browner crust - darker pans, egg white wash, higher temp, etc. - but
those
> aren't in the basic recipe LOL. My sourdough, however, browns like a
champ
> :)
>
Grandma, I'm using either a sourdough recipe or a straight dough recipe that
is only flour, water, salt and yeast or starter. While neither recipe
produces a brown crust, I do get beautiful gold and deep gold color. So,
are we discussing semantics here regarding color, or do your loaves really
not produce any color? Can you describe the color and finish of your
loaves?
Curious Janet
Alan Zelt
Grandma,
No matter how you write it, french breads will brown perfectly with NO
added sugar or fat. You are decidedly wrong, and I don't want people who
read this group to get the impression that either, or even a wash is
required to make the bread brown. That is patently erroneous.
Why do I care so much? Well, for me, life without a good baguette with
the AM coffee is out of the question. As I write this, my shaped
baguettes are in the fridge, awaiting my visit at 530A tomorrow.
Alan Zelt
Janet,
I make my baguettes, I believe, exactly like you. They are golden brown.
If I leave them in longer, or on a bit higher temp, they get quite
brown. I will be popping some more into the oven again in just about
seven hours.
Alan Zelt
But, the purpose of any wash is to add a sheen, not brown the bread.
adrianfoden
bread?) in France and they most certainly do not sell them brown.
Making them at home - oven temp is critical along with *steam* . I've also
picked up a tip somepalce that a cornflour glaze will give a more crunchy
outer and on occasion I make them like this but no fat, no sugar is the
rule!
"Alan Zelt" <alz...@worldnet.att.netFINNFAN> wrote in message
news:3C146638...@worldnet.att.netFINNFAN...
Roy Basan
I have baked a lot of crusty breads including the French baguette,
using good flour(with good diastatic activity)in combination with
yeast salt and water.Whether I add or omit bread improver,my bread
produces the desired crusty golden brown(sometimes even darker) a long
as I used the proper baking procedures on a properly proofed
dough,(i.e,presence of steam and higher temperatures).However if one
of the elements is inappropriate it will come out pale
crusted;including if I use a flour that has low amylase activity .Many
all purpose flour behaves this way.
I experienced also that the higher protein flours give a better crust
coloration than weaker protein flour if baked at the same
temperature(All-purpose flours produces paler crust than bread
flour).So, if I make breads from lower protein flours I bake it at
higher temperature than when I’m using higher protein flours.The
same also with nearly overproofed dough,I baked it at higher
temperatures in order to obtain the desired crust color than with
normally risen doughs.
Roy
Dick Margulis
adrianfoden wrote:
> I've also
> picked up a tip somepalce that a cornflour glaze will give a more crunchy
> outer and on occasion I make them like this but no fat, no sugar is the
> rule!
Just to clarify for US readers, that's what we call a cornstarch glaze
here. Dissolve some cornstarch in water, bring just to a boil and remove
from heat (watch it closely as it quickly goes from just boiling to
making a mess all over the stove). Brush both loaves both immediately
before and immediately after baking. Discard leftover glaze and make
fresh each time it is needed.
Janet Bostwick
"Alan Zelt" <alz...@worldnet.att.netFINNFAN> wrote in message
huge snip, snip
> Grandma,
>
> No matter how you write it, french breads will brown perfectly with NO
> added sugar or fat. You are decidedly wrong, and I don't want people who
> read this group to get the impression that either, or even a wash is
> required to make the bread brown. That is patently erroneous.
>
> Why do I care so much? Well, for me, life without a good baguette with
> the AM coffee is out of the question. As I write this, my shaped
> baguettes are in the fridge, awaiting my visit at 530A tomorrow.
> --
> Alan
Alan,
My boules are shiny without a wash, are yours? I get a medium-thin, crispy,
golden-oak, shiny crust with little blisters just below the surface, that
crackles after I remove it from the oven. No wash, no sugar or fat. Just
flour, water, salt and yeast or starter. I know that you worked several
years on your baguettes, Alan. I can't remember if I worked two or three
winters--maybe four-- on mine. The last thing I got exactly right was the
interior crumb.
But I don't like to use the color brown to describe a crust color, because
there is a color of brown that I get when I haven't done something right.
It is a dead, lifeless color with overtones of gray instead of reds and
golds; the "brown" has no natural shine to it. This color palette applies
to dark breads like rye as well as white breads. I believe it is the result
of over-fermenting/over-proofing.
Janet
Boron Elgar
wrote:
This can also be done with the help of a microwave. Boil water in a
heat-proof vessel (I use a large, Pyrex measuring cup) remove from
oven & immediately whisk in the cornstarch. It'll thicken right up.
Boron
Grandma
"Janet Bostwick" <nos...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:u18irsi...@corp.supernews.com...
Hi Janet -
With straight French - water, yeast, a smidgen of salt and flour - I get
just the palest of coloring unless I force the issue (which of course I've
learned to do) - about the color of white cornmeal. Just very slightly
gold, maybe like the top of a baked sugar cookie if that makes sense.
I don't use baking stones. I use a gas oven at the minute. Put a pan of
boiling water on the floor of the oven to maintain the humidity. I do get a
bit of a deeper crust (though by NO means "brown") by moving the bread to
the very top shelf of the oven half way through baking.
I've also increased the crust color further by lining the baking sheets with
aluminum foil shiny side up before sprinkling with cornmeal (saves me from
washing dishes which I despise!).
End result of all of the above is a nice golden color just a bit lighter
than you would get if you brought home a loaf of "french bread" from the
store. I'm desperately trying to think of something of similar color
....... :( - sorry, brain is fried from a weekend playing with a
non-functioning javascript making Christmas cards work :(
The sourdough is a deeper shade (quite some bit actually).
Grandma
"Alan Zelt" <alz...@worldnet.att.netFINNFAN> wrote in message
What kind of pans are you using Alan? And are you using baking tiles?
Grandma
"Alan Zelt" <alz...@worldnet.att.netFINNFAN> wrote in message
news:3C146604...@worldnet.att.netFINNFAN...
Alan I by no means meant to imply that either sugar or oil should be added
to French. That would make it Italian :)
Grandma
Wow you are GOOD with color descriptions Janet! I think my crust might be a
hair thicker than yours but other than that you hit the nail on the head.
Actually I realized that the stuff is JUST the color of my media center but
that is no help whatsoever ROFL!
Janet Bostwick
Well, my loaves are exactly the color of my kitchen cabinets; they are a
dark golden oak-- a little darker and redder than most office furniture that
you see on the market today. So, I think that we are talking about the same
color, perhaps differing in intensity. The difference may be that Alan and
I are using baking stones and perhaps are baking at a higher
temperature--starting at 450-500 degrees F. and reduce by 50 degrees, for me
within 5 minutes or so. I'm using a 10-inch cast iron fry pan (that has
pre-heated with the oven for over an hour) that I pour one cup of boiling
water into at the beginning of the bake. I think Alan spritzing the oven a
couple of times at the beginning. . .not sure.
So that gets us back to the original poster who said that his loaves really
don't change color much at all, staying a pale almost white. I think that
he must be baking at too low a temperature to carmelize the natural sugars.
Or his oven temperature is off and should be checked with an oven
thermometer. Or he may be having steam in the oven too long which inhibits
crust coloration. Shouldn't have steam or pan of water in there beyond, say
7 minutes for regular dough, 10 for sourdough.
Glad we figured out what color we were talking about.
Janet
Mike Avery
> With straight French - water, yeast, a smidgen of salt and flour - I
> get just the palest of coloring unless I force the issue (which of
> course I've learned to do) - about the color of white cornmeal. Just
> very slightly gold, maybe like the top of a baked sugar cookie if that
> makes sense.
Hmmm.... are you using an oven thermometer, or are you
depending on your thermostat? Many thermostats are
off, and that can be enough to keep from getting the
color you wanted.
Mike
Grandma
"Mike Avery" <mav...@mail.otherwhen.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1008012481.5...@mail.otherwhen.com...
Oh I'm sure mine at present is off LOL, having come with the premises -
however it runs hot rather than cold. I've been baking French bread for
more than 20 years in close to that many ovens though and I've never had a
loaf that you could just place on an ordinary sheet in an ordinary oven,
bake for specified time and have it brown correctly. Forcing required :)
Alan Zelt
I don't use a pan. I used to. They browned either way. I have always
used a pizza stone for my breads.
Alan Zelt
Or Vienna.
Alan Zelt
What temperature are you using?
Alan Zelt
I normally use an egg/water wash. As for colors, let's just say that
brown is at the end of the spectrum of my baking. When I am seeking a
very hard crust, I take an extra couple of minutes. My baguettes are
quite colored, but not brown, brown. But, if I understand what the
original poster, and now Grandma, have to say, their bread is virtually
colorless. I already suspected that the original poster does not bake
his bread at a sufficient temp.
Alan Zelt
I can go along with higher temps and moisture, but I am not accepting of
the differences based upon flours used. I had several long discussions
with KA flour people regarding the "perfect" flour for baguettes. In
spite of their selling "French baguette" flour and high protein flour,
most of the people there (seems they all bake) use their regular A/P
flour. In fact, as Janet will attest, I have been closely following
results tagged to changing my flours. I first started with high
protein/bread flours. I gradually shifted downward to the point where I
almost exclusively use A/P flour for my baguettes. Finished product:
better crumb and crust.
Alan Zelt
>
> I've bought many many hundreds of baguettes (Is this what you mean by French
> bread?) in France and they most certainly do not sell them brown.
>
> Making them at home - oven temp is critical along with *steam* . I've also
> picked up a tip somepalce that a cornflour glaze will give a more crunchy
> outer and on occasion I make them like this but no fat, no sugar is the
> rule!
>
> "
likely what Janet and I are talking about. I sometimes go even darker if
I know that the person I am making them for wants a very hard crust.
As for cornflour/cornstarch crust, I have found that they are most
common for rye breads. As for baguettes, I have seen mostly egg
white/water and water washes. The idea is to create a sheen. The crust,
well, that is the purpose of the combination of the right temp and
moisture. I can assure you that this right combination does not come
about easily. It does take time and many trials and errors. Lots of
errors. BUT, an error making baguettes is not a problem as they make for
great bread crumbs and croutons.
Janet Bostwick
"Alan Zelt" <alz...@worldnet.att.netFINNFAN> wrote in message
> Roy Basan wrote:
SNIP, SNIP, SNIP
Alan, after trying many different flours, organic/non-organic, AP, very high
protein, etc., I believe that I am moving in the same direction that you
are. There are always exceptions of course, and I am very glad that I spent
the time trying everything just for the knowledge gained.
Janet
Janet Bostwick
"Alan Zelt" <alz...@worldnet.att.netFINNFAN> wrote in message
Internet. . .that is the coloration that I am talking about.
Janet
Grandma
"Alan Zelt" <alz...@worldnet.att.netFINNFAN> wrote in message
> Grandma wrote:
> >
> > "Janet Bostwick" <nos...@cableone.net> wrote in message
> > news:u18irsi...@corp.supernews.com...
> > >
> > > "Grandma" <kr...@earthlink.com> wrote in message
> > > news:oTWQ7.43399$WC1.4...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > > snip, snip
> > >
> End result of all of the above is a nice golden color just a bit lighter
> > than you would get if you brought home a loaf of "french bread" from the
> > store. I'm desperately trying to think of something of similar color
> > ....... :( - sorry, brain is fried from a weekend playing with a
> > non-functioning javascript making Christmas cards work :(
> >
> > The sourdough is a deeper shade (quite some bit actually).
>
> What temperature are you using?
> --
> Alan
>
425 or so
Grandma
"Alan Zelt" <alz...@worldnet.att.netFINNFAN> wrote in message
> Janet Bostwick wrote:
> >
> > "Alan Zelt" <alz...@worldnet.att.netFINNFAN> wrote in message
> >
> I normally use an egg/water wash. As for colors, let's just say that
> brown is at the end of the spectrum of my baking. When I am seeking a
> very hard crust, I take an extra couple of minutes. My baguettes are
> quite colored, but not brown, brown. But, if I understand what the
> original poster, and now Grandma, have to say, their bread is virtually
> colorless. I already suspected that the original poster does not bake
> his bread at a sufficient temp.
> --
Alan I TOLD the original poster to use and egg/water wash to encourage
browning of the loaves. I would bet that if you took the same basic recipe
that he's likely using and followed the directions as written that you would
come up with a fairly colorless bread too :)
Janet Bostwick
browning an issue? Thanks
Janet
Roy Basan
> I can go along with higher temps and moisture, but I am not accepting of
> the differences based upon flours used. I had several long discussions
> with KA flour people regarding the "perfect" flour for baguettes. In
> spite of their selling "French baguette" flour and high protein flour,
> most of the people there (seems they all bake) use their regular A/P
> flour. In fact, as Janet will attest, I have been closely following
> results tagged to changing my flours. I first started with high
> protein/bread flours. I gradually shifted downward to the point where I
> almost exclusively use A/P flour for my baguettes. Finished product:
> better crumb and crust.
The enzymatic activity of flours is important in making breads with
lower protein flours so that desirable crust coloration can be
obtained.
I observed that genuine French flours are weaker and approach APF in
gluten quality and quantity but have high diastatic activity.It will
result in a desirable crust color .The oven spring is good and that
will affect the crumb appearance..I therefore conclude that if a
certain all=purpose flours have satisfactory gluten content and have
good enzymatic activity it will consistently produce satisfactory
bread.
Alan Zelt
I would suggest you to start at 500F for six minutes. Then lower to
450F. That will brown it nicely, along with a good crust. In addition,
the 500, combined with the moisture for the first 6 minutes will help in
giving the dough a good spring.