How many ounces in a cup of flour?
Janet Bostwick
Medal Unbleached All Purpose flour. Because of the thread on Mills and
Flours, I read the entire bag quite thoroughly. I was surprised to see that
they say: There are 3 1/3 cups of flour per pound and approximately 84 cups
per 25-pound bag.
I have been using 4 ounces per cup for years; I thought that was the
standard. I have even seen recipes that say 3 1/2 ounces.
What is it?
Janet
Monahan
now I am confused too. There are 8 oz in a cup.
Dianna
Janet Bostwick <jan...@cyberhighway.net> wrote in message
news:iaGb6.305335$U46.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
Janet Bostwick
You are thinking of liquid ounces, you know, the container that has ounces
and cups measured off on the side. Flour is measured in different way, by
either weight (16 ounces to the pound)or those nesting measures that are
generally 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 and 1 cup. Because folks have so many varied ways
of getting the flour into those nesting measures, the weight of the contents
can vary considerably. In a recipe that calls for 8 cups of flour, it would
be possible to put anywhere from 1/2 to 1 POUND more flour in than is called
for. These measures are used for solids. Don't worry, I'm sure that this
thread is going to get a lot more confusing.
Have a good one. .
Janet
"Monahan" <mon...@s-way.com> wrote in message
news:OuGb6.3220$fz3....@news-west.usenetserver.com...
Monahan
Okay this probably sounds like a stupid question but here goes anyway...I
have always used straight cup measures(nested) for my flour. I usually
fluff the flour before measuring it. What do you use to measure your flour?
Dianna
Janet Bostwick <jan...@cyberhighway.net> wrote in message
news:X2Hb6.306048$U46.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
Janet Bostwick
I used to do that too. I'd run a wire wisk around in the flour to fluff it
and then spoon it into a nested measure and level it off. I still do that
for cookies, etc., just because cookbooks generally do not give us weight
measurements here in the U.S. However, when I am making bread I weigh my
flour on a small digital scale. I found that it made a lot of difference in
totals even though I thought that I had been careful before with my fluff,
spoon and level method. The only thing that you really can't weigh is stuff
like a teaspoon of yeast or a tablespoon of salt, the difference is too
small. But if you level anything you put in your spoon measures you should
be o.k.
Once you get used to weighing things, you wish everything could be weighed.
On some of the newsgroups you see questions about why cookies run all over
the pan when baked, etc. You just know that they are adding too much sugar
or something similar. All that could be avoided if our recipe books gave
measurements by weight. I don't know for sure, but I am guessing that a lot
of the problems that folks have with their bread machine recipes can be
traced to inaccurate measurements.
Janet
"Monahan" <mon...@s-way.com> wrote in message
news:vDHb6.3662$fz3....@news-west.usenetserver.com...
Monahan
All my bread recipes are in cup measurements, how do I change to weight
measurements? or was that what your original question was about?
Dianna
Janet Bostwick <jan...@cyberhighway.net> wrote in message
news:xTHb6.306423$U46.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
JField
sweep," you'll get anywhere from 4-5 ounces per cup of flour. I would
suggest you fill a cup measure using your preferred method, then weigh it on
a kitchen scale. From then on, you'll know that 3 cups of flour equals "x"
ounces based on your method. Does that make sense?!
Jenni
"Janet Bostwick" <jan...@cyberhighway.net> wrote in message
news:iaGb6.305335$U46.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
Janet Bostwick
That was pretty much what my question was about. I've been using 4 ounces,
but we'll see what others have to say.
Janet
"Monahan" <mon...@s-way.com> wrote in message
news:Y_Hb6.3802$fz3....@news-west.usenetserver.com...
Janet Bostwick
The method you suggest would only reinforce my possibly incorrect
measurement. What I am trying to find out is what is the accepted weight
for a cup of flour as used by those folks that write the recipes. As you
pointed out, there can be variance depending upon what method you use to
fill a cup. The total ounces of flour achieved by a particular filling
method may not be what the recipe intended. The best way to avoid a baking
disaster is to start out with the correct proportions.
Janet
"JField" <jfi...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:M_Hb6.5273$Tl3.1...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
Ang
I find by spooning flour into cup then levelling off with a knife I get
pretty
consistent results with my BM.
Ang.news:xTHb6.306423$U46.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
JField
method he/she uses to measure the flour.
Try checking in the "ingredients" or "methods" section to see if it
specifies the method. If your recipe came from an actual person, rather
than out of a cook book, I'd check with the person to be certain to
replicate their measurement technique when making the recipe.
Jenni
"Janet Bostwick" <jan...@cyberhighway.net> wrote in message
news:hwIb6.306604$U46.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
Dick Margulis
This sounds to me like Market Research run amok. Some doofus at General
Mills apparently discovered that most consumers scoop instead of
fluffing and so figured, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
I think MOST of the cup-based recipes you run across assume 4 oz per
cup; but if you take any recipes from the Gold Medal bag, you'll have to
adjust your assumption.
Dick
Ian McNeill
<angel...@virgin.net> writes
<lots of snips?
>> > > > Janet Bostwick <jan...@cyberhighway.net> wrote in message
>> > > > news:iaGb6.305335$U46.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
>> > > > > I know that we have covered this many times. I just bought a bag
>of
>> > > Gold
>> > > > > Medal Unbleached All Purpose flour. Because of the thread on Mills
>> and
>> > > > > Flours, I read the entire bag quite thoroughly. I was surprised
>to
>> > see
>> > > > that
>> > > > > they say: There are 3 1/3 cups of flour per pound and
>approximately
>> > 84
>> > > > cups
>> > > > > per 25-pound bag.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I have been using 4 ounces per cup for years; I thought that was
>the
>> > > > > standard. I have even seen recipes that say 3 1/2 ounces.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > What is it?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Janet
Janet,
Many moons ago I asked the same question and was told that 4ozs was the
assumed weight for 1 cup of flour in a US recipe book. I have no basis
for stating that this is absolutely true.
I do know, however, that Dick has also often quoted 4 ozs as the recipe
writer's assumption, so on that score we all agree.
Fascinated as I have been in the past as to how those in the US ever get
good results when baking when you are not measuring by weight, I did a
little research of my own and discovered that the range of possible
weights of flour that can be contained within a cup from well sifted
flour to fully compacted flour can vary up to a maximum of 60%! Although
the extremes, it certainly explains, as you summise, why so many find
things going wrong.
Having said that, and despite the fact that 4 ozs may well be the
publishing standard for recipe books, it is also true that different
flours can have noticeably different weights. I see this as I buy flour
direct from the mills in 70 lb bags and scoop it out of the bags with a
large scoop before weighing it and then sifting it. The scoop can hold
about 2 1/4 lbs of the lightest flour when full but the heavier flour
will be about 1/2 in from the top of the scoop to give the same weight.
I don't know the variation of ozs per cup as I wouldn't know how to
measure a cup.
But the simple explanation of your original question may be that the
particular flour that you were looking at did indeed weigh 3 1/3 ozs per
cup. Which is what the millers state.
The problem is that if people assume a cup in a recipe means 4 ozs, and
they weigh out 12 ozs when the recipe says three cups, then you should,
in theory, be OK.
If on the other hand they measure out 3 cups when the recipe says 3 cups
then nobody really knows what they have measured out in terms of weight
or how their recipe will come out because the cup is a completely
meaningless measure for compactable materials.
But if a mill produces a flour that genuinely weighs 3 1/3 ozs per cup
(by whatever way they determine that) and they know that recipe books
assume 4 ozs per cup, then they have a very real problem because
everybody is going to get it wrong every time they use their flours.
So what they have to do is to say 'Hey Guys, this flour weighs 3 1/3 ozs
per cup'. So if the recipe says 3 cups you will theoretically need 3.6
cups to get it right.'
In other words the assumed 4 ozs per cup in recipe books can itself be
one of the sources of error.
Regards,
--
Ian McNeill
Janet Bostwick
when we want to achieve specific results we measure by an uncertain volume.
It's all very well to say check the author or the bag to see what standard
is used, but we don't all do that all the time. And, too, there are those
recipes that we cut from the newspaper or Internet or get from a friend,
where we have no idea what the standard is.
Thanks for your input, Ian
Janet
"Ian McNeill" <i...@canaletta.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:kLvhvOAd...@canaletta.demon.co.uk...
none
I'm talking here only about bread baking.
Two things that recipes usually state:
1. how many loafs-"this recipe makes 1 loaf"
2. How much flour in volume measure is required.
So for instance if I see a recipe that makes one loaf and calls for from 3.5
to 4 cups of flour per loaf I always weigh out 16 oz of flour by weight.
In other words, unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, one loaf= 16
oz of flour by weight. I never pay any attention to the volume measurement in
recipes. I always have to fine tune a recipe anyway so I continue to use 16 oz
of flour per loaf and fine tune by adjusting the other ingredients. It works
for me.
Art.
none
>Janet,
>
>This sounds to me like Market Research run amok. Some doofus at General
>Mills apparently discovered that most consumers scoop instead of
>fluffing and so figured, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
>
>Dick
>
Dick,
I'll bet it goes back further than that. Back to a time when the most
high-tech thing on a farmers homestead was a team of oxen. The average farm
woman didn't have a scale down to ounces but she did have measuring cups.
Now we can buy a decent scale for 15 bucks- but the measuring cup tradition
goes on.
Art
Janet Bostwick
Isn't that amazing? That's almost 5 cups of flour. I just don't believe
that many people will pick up on that measurement on the bag. I went to the
General Mills web site today to see if I could write them and ask them why
they chose that measurement. They didn't have an email box for consumer
questions. Maybe I will phone them.
Janet
"Dick Margulis" <marg...@fiam.net> wrote in message
news:3A6F6421...@fiam.net...
Dick Margulis
instructions. So they knew how to fluff flour and measure it to get 4 oz
per cup. This 3.x cups per pound thing is much more recent. I'm stickin'
with the doofus in Market Research theory.
Rhonda
Perhaps I misunderstood your method, but it seems to me that your
method uses too much flour because the formula doesn't include the
weight of the liquids. The bread doesn't loose all of the weight of
the liquid in baking.
Brother Juniper's Bread Book mentions on the Sweet French Bread page 9
that "one loses about 2-3 ounces by weight in the baking. 27 ounces
of dough will yield a 24 ounce loaf. Smaller loaves lose less
weight."
So I'd think that the flour weight, plus the liquids weight less 2-3
ounces should equal 16 oz to result in a 1 lb loaf...
Rhonda...
Dr.Needles
For 1 cup:
AP sifted=115g unsifted=135g
bread sifted=120g unsifted=140g
cake sifted=95g unsifted=125g
none
>But Art, back then people actually read cookbooks and paid attention to
>instructions. So they knew how to fluff flour and measure it to get 4 oz
>per cup. This 3.x cups per pound thing is much more recent. I'm stickin'
>with the doofus in Market Research theory.
>
The truth is we are probibly both right!
Art
none
>Art,
>
>Perhaps I misunderstood your method, but it seems to me that your
>method uses too much flour because the formula doesn't include the
>weight of the liquids. The bread doesn't loose all of the weight of
>the liquid in baking.
>
>Brother Juniper's Bread Book mentions on the Sweet French Bread page 9
>that "one loses about 2-3 ounces by weight in the baking. 27 ounces
>of dough will yield a 24 ounce loaf. Smaller loaves lose less
>weight."
>
>So I'd think that the flour weight, plus the liquids weight less 2-3
>ounces should equal 16 oz to result in a 1 lb loaf...
>
>Rhonda...
>
Rhonda,
I am nothing if not practical. I am not as analytical about this as you seem
to be.
When I look at a recipe I look at it as only a rough suggestion as to what the
ratio of various ingredients should be to one another.
For instance this is from the Rheinhardt book on artisan breads:
FRENCH BREAD
Makes 2 loaves
--------------------------------------------
3 1/2 cups unbleached all-purpose flour
3 1/2 cups unbleached bread flour
2 1/2 teaspoons (0.66 ounce) salt
1 teaspoon malt powder or brown sugar
1 1/2 teaspoons instant yeast
2 2/3 cups cool water (65 to 70 deg F)
-------------------------------------------
I would disregard the amount of flour and measure out 32 oz of flour- 16 oz of
AP plus 16 oz of bread flour.
I would disregard the amount of water also.
I would follow the instructions for all other ingredients.
I would dump my 32 oz of flour in a bowl along with all other dry ingredients
and then dribble cold tap water into the bowl until I had the consistency I
wanted. After this, of course, I would follow through with my usual methods
that are appropriate for this type of bread.
In fact this is exactly what I did today. I have two loaves of very nice bread
in front of me right now- it works.
Perhaps this is clearer.
Art
Andy Delaney
jan...@cyberhighway.net says...
> I have been using 4 ounces per cup for years; I thought that was the
> standard. I have even seen recipes that say 3 1/2 ounces.
It depends. Most cookbooks do tell you their assumptions (sifted or not,
for example).
A chart that came with my scale says:
Bread flour - 5 oz. per cup
Sifted All purpose flour - 4 oz. per cup
Sifted Whole Wheat flour - 4 1/2 oz. per cup
From various bread bags:
King Arthur Bread Flour - 120 grams per cup (roughly 4 1/4 oz.)
Gold Medal Bread Flour - 120 grams per cup
Pillsbury All Purpose - 124 grams per cup
Pick a number that seems to get close for you and accept that you'll have
to adjust slightly. Most of my recipes get converted to weights before I
make them for the first time. I then adjust them, if necessary (and if I
like them enough to make them again).
I've used 4 1/2 for years and - with my scale - it gets me close enough
that I only have to add a little liquid or a little extra flour when
kneading the first time I make a recipe.
Basic conversions:
1 pound is 454 grams.
1 pound is 16 ounces (weight).
--
Andy Delaney
llizard
<del...@idsi.net> wrote:
>In article <iaGb6.305335$U46.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com>,
>jan...@cyberhighway.net says...
>> I have been using 4 ounces per cup for years; I thought that was the
>> standard. I have even seen recipes that say 3 1/2 ounces.
>
>It depends.
[snip]
>A chart that came with my scale says:
>Bread flour - 5 oz. per cup
>Sifted All purpose flour - 4 oz. per cup
>Sifted Whole Wheat flour - 4 1/2 oz. per cup
[snip]
>Basic conversions:
>1 pound is 454 grams.
>1 pound is 16 ounces (weight).
All this talk of weights vs measures is fascinating. Until reading the
most informative posts here, I have always used cups and been a bit
careless and not bothered pre-sifting the large bag of unbleached
all-purpose flour I use (eeek - again, until reading here, I was happy
using all-purpose flour. Ignorance truly is bliss).
As a little experiment today when I was making biga from Carol Field's
book ITALIAN BAKER, I measured the flour the same way I always do but I
also weighed it to see if I came close to the weight she suggested. It
was exactly (well, exactly within the error range of my scale - it might
have been off by a milligram or two) the weight suggested in the recipe.
I couldn't be more amazed. It must have been a fluke. I will continue to
do this sort of measuring and see if there is much fluctuation.
-llizard
NOTE: I never pick up my mail from the yahoo address. If you
are e-mailing and hit the reply button, add an "e" to "idirct";
its absence is to stop the torment of automatic mailers.
--
llizard aka ejm
llizard@idirec+.ca
recipes from OUR kitchen
http://www.crosswinds.net/~ejmtph/recipes/
Janet Bostwick
in the U.S. use cups as a measurement. The University of North Carolina
has an index of measurements that says the following: "Cup: a traditional
unit of volume used in recipes in the United States." snip, snip "American
cooks use the same size cup for measuring both liquid and dry substances.
In Britain, cooks sometimes use a similar unit called the breakfast cup."
Further in my surfing, I found the following at About.com. " Flour,
all-purpose: 1 lb. equals 4 cup sifted, 3 1/3 cups, unsifted. Flour, pastry
1 lb. equals 4 cups unsifted, 4 1/2 sifted. Flour, whole wheat: 1 lb.
equals 3 3/4 cup."
My copy of Joy of Cooking simply says " Flour, Bread--4 cups--1 lb. Cake
Flour-- 4 3/4 cups--1 lb. Whole Wheat, Whole Grain or Graham --3 3/4-4
cups--1 lb."
The Fannie Farmer Cookbook table of equivalents says that one cup of
unsifted flour equals 5 ounces, or 140 grams.
Shirley Corriher, in Cookwise says " the volume amounts in these recipes
were measured by dipping the cup into the bag, filling it with flour, and
leveling by scraping against the inside of the bag. If you prefer to work
by weight, a cup of bread flour when I measure this way weighs 5.6 ounces."
I checked many of my other cookbooks, and while they gave instructions as to
how to measure (fluff, spoon and level) a cup, they gave no indication as to
weight nor did they indicate that the resulting cup of flour was considered
sifted.
I have not found any information regarding the tradition of the cup, so
speculation that our founding fathers(mothers) had a cup for liquid measure
and used it for dry ingredients as well, could well be true.
Regarding the equivalents found at the About.com site, I was not able to
find any other sites that would address the weight of dry measure in a cup,
let alone specifically flour, nor did About.com support their flour
equivalents. You can find legal and recognized basis for every other darn
measure just about anywhere, but a cup of flour apparently lacks any support
. If this is true, it is no wonder that various cookbook/recipe authors and
flour packagers supply their own equivalents.
Janet
"Janet Bostwick" <jan...@cyberhighway.net> wrote in message
news:iaGb6.305335$U46.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
Dick Margulis
THE place to look for the origins of the US cup measure would likely be
in Fannie Farmer's Boston Cooking School Cook Book (the original). Ol'
Fannie was the queen of standardizing measuring and cooking techniques
so they could be taught reliably and reproducibly to the young ladies
whose tuition she was accepting. Before Farmer, receipts were of the
"scoop, pinch, and handful" variety. Farmer was an interesting person.
IIRC she had some major disability that should, in those days, have
severely limited her life choices. Founding and profitably running a
cooking school, inventing an entire system of cooking, and publishing
her methods and recipes at a profit would add up to quite a lifetime
accomplishment for anyone, let alone someone who was expected to retreat
into a corner, curl up, and die.
Dick
Marc Richardson
(25*16)/84=4.76 per cup. Where did 3.5 ounces per cup come from?
Marc from Portland
Janet Bostwick wrote in message ...
Rhonda
Hello Art,
No, it's not clear. Perhaps you should just leave me in the flour
dust on this one? --I'm surprised that the recipe you quote didn't
include weight measurements for the flour anyway. I would have used
the ol' 4 ounces per cup, and put 14 ounces of each flour for a total
of 28 ounces. Then perhaps I would have used between 1/2 and 1 cup
for bench flour, leaving me at a total of 30-32 ounces. Which, in the
end sounds pretty darn close for a newby.
I don't consider myself analytical. Perhaps I look closely at details
because I'm trying to learn. My bread is delicious, but not as
consistent as I'd like. I believe if I want to improve consistency, I
have to look at the details closely...
Your own successfull method involves a logic line that is now second
nature to you. Personally, I suspect it stemmed from a long past
analysis of bread recipes and other information...
Rhonda.
Bob Y.
>It depends on whether you sift it and on the type of flour.
>
<snip>
>> I know that we have covered this many times. I just bought a bag of Gold
>>> Medal Unbleached All Purpose flour. Because of the thread on Mills and
>>> Flours, I read the entire bag quite thoroughly. I was surprised to see
>>that
>>> they say: There are 3 1/3 cups of flour per pound and approximately 84
>>cups
>>> per 25-pound bag.
>>>
>>> I have been using 4 ounces per cup for years; I thought that was the
>>> standard. I have even seen recipes that say 3 1/2 ounces.
>>>
>>> What is it?
>>>
>>> Janet
If you had read the information carefully, you would have noted that at
the very top of the Nutritional Facts box they will list a serving size in
cups and grams. e.g. KAF's stone ground whole wheat shows 1/4 cup as the
serving size and the equivalent weight as 30g. Servings per 4 lb bag--75
and calories--100.
Hope this helps.
- -
Bob Y.
Some days you're the pigeon, some days you're the statue.
Bob Y.
<snip>
>All this talk of weights vs measures is fascinating. Until reading the
>most informative posts here, I have always used cups and been a bit
>careless and not bothered pre-sifting the large bag of unbleached
>all-purpose flour I use (eeek - again, until reading here, I was happy
>using all-purpose flour. Ignorance truly is bliss).
>
Not to worry. If you are making Italian, French, or any other rustic bread,
stick with the all-purpose flour. That works better for those breads than
the "bread" flour does. Save it for the standard white loaves, adding to
whole wheat or rye, or when you are trying to duplicate Wonder Bread (or
Mrs. Baird's if you are in Texas).
none
>>
>
>Hello Art,
>
>No, it's not clear. Perhaps you should just leave me in the flour
>dust on this one? --I'm surprised that the recipe you quote didn't
>include weight measurements for the flour anyway. I would have used
>the ol' 4 ounces per cup, and put 14 ounces of each flour for a total
>of 28 ounces. Then perhaps I would have used between 1/2 and 1 cup
>for bench flour, leaving me at a total of 30-32 ounces. Which, in the
>end sounds pretty darn close for a newby.
Rhonda,
Your method and my method accounts for about a 5 percent difference.
All things considered your method is just as "accurate" as my method in my
opinion. That is I would not expect that few ounces to make a practical
difference given the inconsistencies of flour and other ingredients.
>
>I don't consider myself analytical. Perhaps I look closely at details
>because I'm trying to learn. My bread is delicious, but not as
>consistent as I'd like. I believe if I want to improve consistency, I
>have to look at the details closely...
>
>Your own successfull method involves a logic line that is now second
>nature to you. Personally, I suspect it stemmed from a long past
>analysis of bread recipes and other information...
>
One vastly underrated ingredient based on my experience is salt. I think the
ratio between salt and all other ingredients is more likely to make or break a
loaf of bread more than anything else. I think it tends to act like a
catalyst-little changes in salt bring about big changes in the loaf. What's
been your experience with salt so far?
>Rhonda.
May all your loafs be perfect,
Art
none
>Not to worry. If you are making Italian, French, or any other rustic bread,
>stick with the all-purpose flour. That works better for those breads than
>the "bread" flour does. Save it for the standard white loaves, adding to
>whole wheat or rye, or when you are trying to duplicate Wonder Bread (or
>Mrs. Baird's if you are in Texas).
>
>- -
>
>Bob Y.
>
Yep.
That's been exactly my experience. Sometimes, when I want a less tender, more
chewy crumb I go to a 4:1 ratio between AP and bread but never more for so
called "rustic" style breads.
Regards,
Art
llizard
[snip]
>when I was making biga from Carol Field's
>book ITALIAN BAKER, I measured the flour the same way I always do but I
>also weighed it to see if I came close to the weight she suggested. It
>was exactly (well, exactly within the error range of my scale - it might
>have been off by a milligram or two) the weight suggested in the recipe.
Yesterday, I made one of the rustic breads in Ms.Field's book using the
biga from the day before. Again I measured the flour using the cup
measurement - the recipe called for 3&3/4 cups or 500 gms. At 3 cups, my
scale said 500 gms.
Therefore, after only two times of experimentation, I'm convinced! I
will now weigh the flour instead of using the cup measure.
Many thanks for the on-going lessons in this wonderful group.
-llizard
P.S. The resulting bread was stellar. (or at least we all thought so)
herm...@my-deja.com
"Janet Bostwick" <jan...@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
Gold
> Medal Unbleached All Purpose flour. Because of the thread on Mills and
> Flours, I read the entire bag quite thoroughly. I was surprised to
see that
> they say: There are 3 1/3 cups of flour per pound and approximately
84 cups
> per 25-pound bag.
>
> I have been using 4 ounces per cup for years; I thought that was the
> standard. I have even seen recipes that say 3 1/2 ounces.
>
> What is it?
>
> Janet
>
>
Thanks for starting an interesting and informative discussion to which I
can only add another question.
Is it not true that the weather, and in particular the humidity, can
effect the amount of flour one will need in a particular recipe? Might
not that also effect the weight of the flour from day to day? Is that
an advantage to weighing out flour over "cup measuring"?
Hermit
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Janet Bostwick
I don't know the answer to that, really. There are many people who claim
that is true. But, if I keep my flour from week to week in the same closed
tin, how is sufficient moisture going to get into the flour to alter its
moisture content? I recall that last year there were some heated
discussions about this. Even if I didn't keep my flour in a closed tin, I
just can't visualize enough moisture being added to the flour from humidity
that it would alter my recipe noticeably. I would think that the flour
would have to turn pasty with water to do that.
I am sure that we will hear from others on this.
Janet
<herm...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:950e4v$561$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Dick Margulis
I really think that the margin of error in measuring small quantities of
ingredients is so large that a few percent difference in the moisture
content of flour gets lost in the noise. So I agree with Janet that the
variation due to weather, especially in a modern home, is irrelevant.
The effect is real when the quantities are large and the bread is being
produced by a system that is, itself, intolerant of inconsistencies. If
a bag of flour (speaking of 100 lb bags now) has a cup more water
absorbed in it (half a perent) on Thursday than it did on Wednesday,
resulting from a dramatic change in weather, that's a cup less water
that needs to be put in the mixer. If you miss that fact and put in the
same amount of water, you'll need to throw about a pound more flour into
the mixer to achieve the desired consistency. That sort of adjustment is
reasonable and possible in a small bakery, where there is some
flexibility. But in a Wonder Bread factory, it would throw a wrench in
the works.
Dick
bsa...@ix.netcom.com
>
> Janet and Hermit,
>
> I really think that the margin of error in measuring small quantities of
> ingredients is so large that a few percent difference in the moisture
> content of flour gets lost in the noise. So I agree with Janet that the
> variation due to weather, especially in a modern home, is irrelevant.
>
> The effect is real when the quantities are large and the bread is being
> produced by a system that is, itself, intolerant of inconsistencies. If
> a bag of flour (speaking of 100 lb bags now) has a cup more water
> absorbed in it (half a perent) on Thursday than it did on Wednesday,
> resulting from a dramatic change in weather, that's a cup less water
> that needs to be put in the mixer. If you miss that fact and put in the
> same amount of water, you'll need to throw about a pound more flour into
> the mixer to achieve the desired consistency. That sort of adjustment is
> reasonable and possible in a small bakery, where there is some
> flexibility. But in a Wonder Bread factory, it would throw a wrench in
> the works.
>
> Dick
>
Breadmaking is not the only activity where absorbed water plays a role in the
quality of a finished product. Some years ago I used to work for a large
producer of concrete. The quality of the concrete (breaking strength,
flowability, etc) depended in knowing how much water went into the mix. The
problem was the sand used. The formulas for the concrete called for "SSD" sand
which meant "saturated, surface dry". The sand piles would be continuously
sprinkled with water and turned to keep them uniform. But this is Florida and
rain and heat would play heck with the moisture content of the sand.
Every day at the beginning of the day the percent moisture of the sand would
be measured. The fomulas called for about a 2% water content (my memory fails
me, I may be wrong). To find out the moisture content a sample would be taken
from the sand pile. The sand would be put into a container that had been
carefully weighed and the whole thing weighed. The container and sand would
then be put on a burner and cooked the temperature went above the boiling
point of water. Essentially this would drive most of the water out of the
sand. The dry sand would be weighed again and from those two weights, properly
tared, the moisture content would be calculated.
The method is simple and quick. After the calculation the water content would
be used to recalculate the water content to produce a very uniform product.
I am not suggesting this be done to flour. Sand can be heated without changing
it much except drive out the water. I am not sure this can be done to flour.
Bert
none
>Janet and Hermit,
>
>I really think that the margin of error in measuring small quantities of
>ingredients is so large that a few percent difference in the moisture
>content of flour gets lost in the noise. So I agree with Janet that the
>variation due to weather, especially in a modern home, is irrelevant.
>
pressure could have some effect on a loaf's rise or the amount of oven spring.
Art
Janet Bostwick
Janet
"none" <no...@none.net> wrote in message
news:hzZc6.1104$vq4.1...@news7.onvoy.net...
Dick Margulis
It makes sense to you? Is your experience that bread rises better on a
warm, humid or rainy day (low barometric pressure) than on a warm, dry
and sunny day (high barometric pressure?
Dick
Janet Bostwick
wondered why rainy days work better than sunny days. But what I was really
thinking was that there wouldn't be as much resistance to the gaseous
bubbles inflating in the dough if there was less pressure from the air
holding the gases in a more compressed form. Gas can expand infinitely,
can it not? So less pressure confining the container(bubble) would allow
quicker and greater expansion? (Armchair physics)
Janet
"Dick Margulis" <marg...@fiam.net> wrote in message
news:3A7477B5...@fiam.net...
Janet Bostwick
John Dillon
it's the only way I know of judging the quantity of a product whose density
varies according to the quantity of air included.
John
"Ian McNeill" <i...@canaletta.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:kLvhvOAd...@canaletta.demon.co.uk...
> In article <8GIb6.195374$eT4.17...@nnrp3.clara.net>, Ang
> <angel...@virgin.net> writes
>
> <lots of snips?> >> > > > news:iaGb6.305335$U46.9...@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
> >> > > > > I know that we have covered this many times. I just bought a
bag
> >of
> >> > > Gold
> >> > > > > Medal Unbleached All Purpose flour. Because of the thread on
Mills
> >> and
> >> > > > > Flours, I read the entire bag quite thoroughly. I was
surprised
> >to
> >> > see
> >> > > > that
> >> > > > > they say: There are 3 1/3 cups of flour per pound and
> >approximately
> >> > 84
> >> > > > cups
> >> > > > > per 25-pound bag.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I have been using 4 ounces per cup for years; I thought that
was
> >the
> >> > > > > standard. I have even seen recipes that say 3 1/2 ounces.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > What is it?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Janet
>
>
> Many moons ago I asked the same question and was told that 4ozs was the
> assumed weight for 1 cup of flour in a US recipe book. I have no basis
> for stating that this is absolutely true.
>
> I do know, however, that Dick has also often quoted 4 ozs as the recipe
> writer's assumption, so on that score we all agree.
>
> Fascinated as I have been in the past as to how those in the US ever get
> good results when baking when you are not measuring by weight, I did a
> little research of my own and discovered that the range of possible
> weights of flour that can be contained within a cup from well sifted
> flour to fully compacted flour can vary up to a maximum of 60%! Although
> the extremes, it certainly explains, as you summise, why so many find
> things going wrong.
>
> Having said that, and despite the fact that 4 ozs may well be the
> publishing standard for recipe books, it is also true that different
> flours can have noticeably different weights. I see this as I buy flour
> direct from the mills in 70 lb bags and scoop it out of the bags with a
> large scoop before weighing it and then sifting it. The scoop can hold
> about 2 1/4 lbs of the lightest flour when full but the heavier flour
> will be about 1/2 in from the top of the scoop to give the same weight.
> I don't know the variation of ozs per cup as I wouldn't know how to
> measure a cup.
>
> But the simple explanation of your original question may be that the
> particular flour that you were looking at did indeed weigh 3 1/3 ozs per
> cup. Which is what the millers state.
>
> The problem is that if people assume a cup in a recipe means 4 ozs, and
> they weigh out 12 ozs when the recipe says three cups, then you should,
> in theory, be OK.
>
> If on the other hand they measure out 3 cups when the recipe says 3 cups
> then nobody really knows what they have measured out in terms of weight
> or how their recipe will come out because the cup is a completely
> meaningless measure for compactable materials.
>
> But if a mill produces a flour that genuinely weighs 3 1/3 ozs per cup
> (by whatever way they determine that) and they know that recipe books
> assume 4 ozs per cup, then they have a very real problem because
> everybody is going to get it wrong every time they use their flours.
>
> So what they have to do is to say 'Hey Guys, this flour weighs 3 1/3 ozs
> per cup'. So if the recipe says 3 cups you will theoretically need 3.6
> cups to get it right.'
>
> In other words the assumed 4 ozs per cup in recipe books can itself be
> one of the sources of error.
>
> Regards,
> --
> Ian McNeill
none
>Well, I've never thought of it specifically that way, but yes, I have often
>wondered why rainy days work better than sunny days. But what I was really
>thinking was that there wouldn't be as much resistance to the gaseous
>bubbles inflating in the dough if there was less pressure from the air
>holding the gases in a more compressed form. Gas can expand infinitely,
>can it not? So less pressure confining the container(bubble) would allow
>quicker and greater expansion? (Armchair physics)
>
>Janet
Janet,
I don't know how it applies to bread but what you described is exactly, how in
fact, a barometer is made. It is a small airtight bellows that expands and
contracts with changes in atmospheric pressure. Put a pointer on it and you
measure the movement of the bellows in and out.
Does the developing voids in dough react the same way as the bellows on a
barometer? I have no idea. But it's fun to speculate!
Art
Janet Bostwick
wondered why rainy days work better than sunny days. But what I was really
thinking was that there wouldn't be as much resistance to the gaseous
bubbles inflating in the dough if there was less pressure from the air
holding the gases in a more compressed form. Gas can expand infinitely, can
quicker and greater expansion? (Armchair physics)
Janet
"Dick Margulis" <marg...@fiam.net> wrote in message
news:3A7477B5...@fiam.net...
cromfordhkbs
I know I must miss out on many wonderful recipes but even using some of the
advice given in this thread, the next problem I discovered was that with
other ingredients (butter, sugar, etc), 'cup' means something entirely
different with respect to weight. I tried conversion charts (US to
English/Metric) but found that by the time I had compared them, converted
each ingredient to weight, time for baking was running out...
I now only use recipes with weights given (either metric or imperial).
Anne (non-machine user)
UK
John Dillon <el...@bluecarrots.com> wrote in message
news:3a74a...@news2.vip.uk.com...
Rhonda
Thank you for your reply. I apologise for my delay in acknowleding
your post, I've been off-line and out of the loop for nearly a week.
As for salt, I tend to think the relationship/ratio between salt and
yeast as being very important. When I use commercial yeast, I'm
carefull to measure the salt accurately (by volume as my scale isn't
accurate with smaller measures). Also, I prefer recipes that specify
what kind of salt to use...
--As for the relationship between salt and the other ingredients and
the importance of salt to the dough as a whole... I haven't thought
about it a whole lot yet.
BTW, I did get my hands on a copy of the Crust and Crumb book that you
mentioned in your earlier post. Along with it, I checked out Brother
Juniper's Bread Book, Sacramental Magic, Beard on Bread and the
Village Baker. I began with the Reinhart books which have kept me up
all night. I've laughed, cried and paced around the house in nervous
anticipation during the 'suspense' parts. I can't believe I've been
intimidated by these kinds of books in the past. They are a wonderful
read. Right now, I'm delving into the terminolgy of the whole thing.
--Trying to learn the difference between Bega and Levain (firm)
starters and also Poolish and Barm (loose) starters...
Anyway, thanks again for your reply,
Rhonda.
On Sat, 27 Jan 2001 15:25:29 GMT, no...@none.net (none) wrote:
>Rhonda,
>Your method and my method accounts for about a 5 percent difference.
>All things considered your method is just as "accurate" as my method in my
>opinion. That is I would not expect that few ounces to make a practical
>difference given the inconsistencies of flour and other ingredients.
>
>One vastly underrated ingredient based on my experience is salt. I think the
>ratio between salt and all other ingredients is more likely to make or break a
>loaf of bread more than anything else. I think it tends to act like a
>catalyst-little changes in salt bring about big changes in the loaf. What's
>been your experience with salt so far?
>
>
Dick Margulis
Rhonda wrote:
>
>
>
> As for salt, I tend to think the relationship/ratio between salt and
> yeast as being very important.
Rhonda,
You are correct that the _relationship_ between salt and yeast is
imporant. But in order for that relationship to be fulfilled, it is the
_ratio_ of salt to water that is critical.
The practical importance of this is that if you adjust the amount of
yeast in a recipe up or down, you do _not_ adjust the amount of salt.
Dick
Janet Bostwick
Rhonda
Thanks for writing. I think a light bulb is flickering on. Let's
make sure I understand you right. My paraphrase of the concept you're
trying to relay is:
-Salt and yeast don't interact like "baking soda and buttermilk",
balancing each other out, but rather the salt and water create a mild
saline environment where yeast live and do their thing in a manageable
way???
-If you decrease the yeast AND the salt, you decrease the salinity of
the overall "dough environment", therefore having less control over
the yeast used. The fact that you started with less yeast would be a
mute point because the rapid multiplication of the yeast quickly
leaves you with the same amount of yeast cells as you would have had
in the first place.???
-The salinity of the overall "dough environment" isn't changed (or
isn't significantly changed) by the multiplication of the
yeast/fermenting process???
-So the application of this salt/water information would include
modifying my technique to include the salt with the liquids rather
than the dry ingredients in yeasted recipes???
Do you agree with any of this, or did I completely misunderstand what
you were saying?
Rhonda.
On Thu, 01 Feb 2001 06:33:12 -0500, Dick Margulis <marg...@fiam.net>
wrote:
Dick Margulis
water to dissolve it and don't add the salt directly to the water, as
this will raise the salinity way too high, momentarily, and kill the
yeast. continue to add the salt with the dry ingredients AFTER you have
added about half the flour to the yeast/water mix. Otherwise, you've got
it exactly right.
Rhonda
Thanks for writing. I LOL'd when I saw that the incorrect application
only counted for 2 percent...
Thanks for the tip on not adding the salt until half of the flour is
in...
Rhonda.
On Fri, 02 Feb 2001 07:10:54 -0500, Dick Margulis <marg...@fiam.net>
herm...@my-deja.com
Dick Margulis <marg...@fiam.net> wrote:
> 100% correct. Uh, no, 98% correct. Put the yeast in plain, unsalted
> water to dissolve it and don't add the salt directly to the water, as
> this will raise the salinity way too high, momentarily, and kill the
> yeast. continue to add the salt with the dry ingredients AFTER you
have
> added about half the flour to the yeast/water mix. Otherwise, you've
got
> it exactly right.
>
And in a bread machine...
In mine the liquids go in first, then the flours, and the yeast on top.
I've been putting the salt and sugars in with the liquids. Any problem
with that practice?
Dan Cottler
That is *exactly* where they belong in an ABM. They need to completely
dissolve in the liquid before the mixing starts, but must be kept away
from the yeast so it doesn't activate too early (during the initial
warm-up cycle).
- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus <mailto:dar...@usa.net>
- South Jersey, USA, Earth <http://www.crosswinds.net/~darmok>
- You cannot make History. You can only survive it.
Dick Margulis
herm...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> And in a bread machine...
>
> In mine the liquids go in first, then the flours, and the yeast on top.
> I've been putting the salt and sugars in with the liquids. Any problem
> with that practice?
>
I'll have to take Dan's word for it, as I don't do bread machines.
Mike Avery
jan...@cyberhighway.net says...
> I know that we have covered this many times. I just bought a bag of Gold
> Medal Unbleached All Purpose flour. Because of the thread on Mills and
> Flours, I read the entire bag quite thoroughly. I was surprised to see that
> they say: There are 3 1/3 cups of flour per pound and approximately 84 cups
> per 25-pound bag.
>
> I have been using 4 ounces per cup for years; I thought that was the
> standard. I have even seen recipes that say 3 1/2 ounces.
>
> What is it?
I suspect that in the end neither a weight based nor columetric based
measurement will give truly consistent results.
I usually just scoop out the flour from my flour bin. I noticed that Ed
Wood says a cup of flour is 4.25 ounces. When I was given a digital
scale for Christmas, I found that my cups are closer to 5.25 ounces.
Obviously the type of flour, and the packing of the flour, will change
the weight of a cup. Ideally, one should probably sift the flour before
spooning it into the cup. Sadly, I'm not that patient <g>.
On the other hand, the liquid content of flour can change with it's
storage. I used to live in an area where the humidity was typically
above 60% and was often above 85%. Now I live in an area where the
humidity is rarely above 25%. My flour is different now, and I'm not
sure how much of that is due to regional differences and how much is due
to humidity. (Perhaps I should have a friend from where I used to live
mail me a sack of flour, and then I can test it when fresh and a month or
two later....)
But when you put 8 oz of flour on the scales, and when I put 8 oz of
flour on the scales, we may well not have the same amount of flour. One
of us may have a lot more water than the other.
In the end, there is no substitute for experience. In the computer world
experience is in proportion to the amount of equipment ruined. In
baking, it's probably in proportion to the number of sub-optimum loaves
baked.
Mike
RBadar1932
it's close.
Bob
Bob Y.
If you look on the side of the bag, it will give a weight/cup. Weight is
usually in grams, but it isn't all that hard to convert to ounces. Off the
top of my head, I'd say 90 g = 1/4 cup.
- -
Bob Y.
Some days you're the pigeon, some days you're the statue.
llizard
<rdy...@wcc.net> wrote:
>On 14 Feb 2001 03:58:45 GMT, rbada...@aol.com (RBadar1932) wrote:
>
>>I've always figured 4.5 ounces for a cup of flour.
[snip]
>
>If you look on the side of the bag, it will give a weight/cup. Weight is
>usually in grams, but it isn't all that hard to convert to ounces. Off the
>top of my head, I'd say 90 g = 1/4 cup.
360gm to a cup seems on the high side.
According to
http://www.mitchell.demon.nl/chefsfood/weights_volume.html
90gm = 3oz
If there are 4.5 oz in a cup of flour, I'd say roughly 32gm = 1/4 c.
-llizard
P.S. According to the bag of flour I have, there are 132 gms of
allpurpose flour in a cup. I guess that with each flour company there
is some variance.
NOTE: I never pick up my mail from the yahoo address. If you
are e-mailing and hit the reply button, add an "e" to "idirct";
its absence is to stop the torment of automatic mailers.
--
llizard aka ejm
llizard@idirec+.ca
(Change the plus sign into a "t")