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Large loaves collapsing.
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ceed
Apr 8, 2012, 11:21:26 AM4/8/12
to
Hi,
I have a large family and was looking for a bread machine that makes 3lb
loaves. I found one which makes great bread in all sizes (2, 2.5 and 3 lb
loaves). It has produced bread daily for a year now and works great.
However, the 3 lb loaves gets really high and sometimes they collapse a
bit in the middle while baking. It's not a complete collapse, but it
bothers me that they're not always perfect. Other sizes do not have that
problem. What I wondered if there's anything I can do to my recipes to
lower the chances of collapse? I have tried a little bit less moisture,
but it doesn't seem to help. I have come to the conclusion that this is a
weakness in the machine programming, or maybe that perfect 3 lb loaves are
too much to ask for in a break machine, but I thought I would ask here
anyway.
--
//ceed (indeed)
I have a large family and was looking for a bread machine that makes 3lb
loaves. I found one which makes great bread in all sizes (2, 2.5 and 3 lb
loaves). It has produced bread daily for a year now and works great.
However, the 3 lb loaves gets really high and sometimes they collapse a
bit in the middle while baking. It's not a complete collapse, but it
bothers me that they're not always perfect. Other sizes do not have that
problem. What I wondered if there's anything I can do to my recipes to
lower the chances of collapse? I have tried a little bit less moisture,
but it doesn't seem to help. I have come to the conclusion that this is a
weakness in the machine programming, or maybe that perfect 3 lb loaves are
too much to ask for in a break machine, but I thought I would ask here
anyway.
--
//ceed (indeed)
graham
Apr 8, 2012, 1:12:25 PM4/8/12
to
"ceed" <ce...@is.indeed.invalid> wrote in message
news:op.wcgcx...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com...
cut back the yeast quantity in the recipe.
Graham
Janet Bostwick
Apr 8, 2012, 1:57:10 PM4/8/12
to
accurately. If you are measuring yeast by teaspoons, be sure that you
level the teaspoon with a straight edge. This may seem picky, but in
the case of a bread machine, it may be an issue that leads to over
proofed dough.
Janet US
ceed
Apr 8, 2012, 3:37:42 PM4/8/12
to
On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 12:57:10 -0500, Janet Bostwick <nos...@cableone.net>
wrote:
>> They are overproofing. I don't have a bread machine but I suggest that
>> you
>> cut back the yeast quantity in the recipe.
>> Graham
>>
> Cutting back on the yeast in the recipe may mean to measure
> accurately. If you are measuring yeast by teaspoons, be sure that you
> level the teaspoon with a straight edge. This may seem picky, but in
> the case of a bread machine, it may be an issue that leads to over
> proofed dough.
> Janet US
Thanks guys. I didn't think of the yeast. Doh! :) I'm weighing everything,
even fluids (metric). I normally use 9 g of dry yeast for a 3 lb loaf. I
think that equals .32 oz. How far down should I go for starters?
--
//ceed (indeed)
Thank you for flying Opera: http://www.opera.com
wrote:
>> They are overproofing. I don't have a bread machine but I suggest that
>> you
>> cut back the yeast quantity in the recipe.
>> Graham
>>
> Cutting back on the yeast in the recipe may mean to measure
> accurately. If you are measuring yeast by teaspoons, be sure that you
> level the teaspoon with a straight edge. This may seem picky, but in
> the case of a bread machine, it may be an issue that leads to over
> proofed dough.
> Janet US
even fluids (metric). I normally use 9 g of dry yeast for a 3 lb loaf. I
think that equals .32 oz. How far down should I go for starters?
--
//ceed (indeed)
Thank you for flying Opera: http://www.opera.com
graham
Apr 8, 2012, 5:09:25 PM4/8/12
to
"ceed" <ce...@is.indeed.invalid> wrote in message
until you achieve what you are seeking.
Graham
spsffan
Apr 9, 2012, 12:07:10 AM4/9/12
to
too much yeast, in my experience. Even some in an otherwise trusted
book. I had a few breads that I really liked, but they would often
collapse. Through trial and error, (and watching!) I figured out that
contrary to what you would expect, I was using too much yeast.
My notes for those breads (written in the margins) seem to work out to
about 2/3 of the yeast called for in the original recipe.
You might also cut back on any sugar (white, brown, honey, molasses) a
bit if the reduction in yeast doesn't do the trick. Basically, the dough
is rising too far and too fast to be stable.
Regards,
DAve
Janet Bostwick
Apr 9, 2012, 12:45:23 AM4/9/12
to
On Sun, 08 Apr 2012 21:07:10 -0700, spsffan <sps...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
snip
Janet
wrote:
snip
Basically, the dough
>is rising too far and too fast to be stable.
>
>Regards,
>
>DAve
very well and succinctly put.
>is rising too far and too fast to be stable.
>
>Regards,
>
>DAve
Janet
Gerardus
Apr 9, 2012, 3:44:03 AM4/9/12
to
In article <a8ngr.24962$Ce4....@newsfe21.iad>, g.st...@shaw.ca says...
What about more raising on the top part of the bread than at the bottom
I.e. bigger holes ?
Gerardus
I.e. bigger holes ?
Gerardus
graham
Apr 9, 2012, 9:10:38 AM4/9/12
to
"Gerardus" <nos...@allow.ed> wrote in message
news:MPG.29ecb1a9e...@news20.forteinc.com...
Graham
Gerardus
Apr 9, 2012, 11:58:00 AM4/9/12
to
In article <jdBgr.16$%b4...@newsfe21.iad>, g.st...@shaw.ca says...
The solution is again less yeast or less water ?
Gerardus
>
> "Gerardus" <nos...@allow.ed> wrote in message
> news:MPG.29ecb1a9e...@news20.forteinc.com...
> > In article <a8ngr.24962$Ce4....@newsfe21.iad>, g.st...@shaw.ca says...
> >>
...
> "Gerardus" <nos...@allow.ed> wrote in message
> news:MPG.29ecb1a9e...@news20.forteinc.com...
> > In article <a8ngr.24962$Ce4....@newsfe21.iad>, g.st...@shaw.ca says...
> >>
> >
> >
> > What about more raising on the top part of the bread than at the bottom
> > I.e. bigger holes ?
> >
> I think you describe a flying crust. Something to be avoided.
> Graham
>
>
>
Thanks !
> >
> > What about more raising on the top part of the bread than at the bottom
> > I.e. bigger holes ?
> >
> I think you describe a flying crust. Something to be avoided.
> Graham
>
>
>
The solution is again less yeast or less water ?
Gerardus
graham
Apr 9, 2012, 3:06:32 PM4/9/12
to
"Gerardus" <nos...@allow.ed> wrote in message
imagine less yeast.
Remember, my answers are based on experience in making bread in the
traditional way. I do not use a bread machine (I have nothing against
them).
Graham
ceed
Apr 9, 2012, 4:40:42 PM4/9/12
to
On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 14:06:32 -0500, graham <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> The solution is again less yeast or less water ?
>>
>>
> In a bread machine (where there is no control on the process) I would
> imagine less yeast.
> Remember, my answers are based on experience in making bread in the
> traditional way. I do not use a bread machine (I have nothing against
> them).
> Graham
I would love to be able to bake bread the old fashioned way, but with five
>> The solution is again less yeast or less water ?
>>
>>
> In a bread machine (where there is no control on the process) I would
> imagine less yeast.
> Remember, my answers are based on experience in making bread in the
> traditional way. I do not use a bread machine (I have nothing against
> them).
> Graham
kids expecting home baked bread every day it's impossible, so a bread
machine it is. I wear out one every 18 months or so. They are obviously
not made to be used daily! Well, the one I have now was the cheapest I've
ever bought, but it's two years old in May so it has outlasted much more
expensive machines.
I will try to reduce yeast with 30% this afternoon and let you guys know
how it works out. Thanks!
Barry Harmon
Apr 11, 2012, 7:32:41 PM4/11/12
to
ceed <ce...@is.indeed.invalid> wrote in
news:op.wcgcx...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com:
When do you see the collapse? Is it that the loaf doeasn't rise in the
center, or does the loaf look all right after baking and then sag in the
center? The timing of the collapse can hint at the cause.
The holes in the top being larger than the holes in the bottom is normal.
Think of the weight of the dough bearing down on teh poor little yeasties
and the gas that they produce. If there is a lot of pressure, then the gas
will be relatively compressed and will have a hard time expanding. That's
the case at the bottom. On the other hand, the guys at the top have
nothing to impede their development, so they can go wild. The result is
larger holes at the top of the loaf than at the bottom. This is normal in
all breads.
The countermeasure is to flip the loaf 15 minutes prior to baking, which
gives a chance for things to sort of even out.
A flying crust (tunnel crust), a topic of much debate on the board, is
another thing entirely.
The flying crust is the result of several things.
1. Over proofing. The loaf expands, then the yeast runs out of energy
(food) and stops expanding.
2. The crust has been allowed to dry out a bit, becoming a bit hard.
3. The interior of the loaf collapses, but the crust is now dry, so it
doesn't fall back (collapse) with the center, which leaves a hole between
the crust and the crumb.
4. The unwitting baker then bakes the loaf. The crust bakes up nicely,
but the crumb, having run out of energy and fallen, doesn't rise very much,
which leaves a hole under the crust down the center of the loaf -- a
tunnel.
If the loaf collapses during baking, that means that it isn't getting
enough energy to raise the crust up. This may be caused by too long a
proof. This gets my vote as the problem here. You may also have used weak
flour -- all purpose or cake flour instead of bread flour, although one can
make excellent bread with all purpose flour, it just takes a bit of
thought.
If the loaf collapses after baking, i.e., during cooling, that may indicate
that the loaf is underbaked, the crumb hasn't baked fully, leaving a bit of
damp crumb, which hasn't baked fully and thus can't support the crust.
Assuming a 48 ounce loaf of 30 ounces of flour (60% hydration), the 0.3
ounces is 1% yeast, which should be okay for a normal loaf. (However, if
the dough has oil, fat or a lot of sugar in it, you could need as much as
3% yeast; if it has a lot of whole wheat, you may need 1 1/2 to 2% yeast.)
Cutting the amount of yeast may be a way of cutting proofing time in a
fixed-clock-time machine -- in a machine where you have no option but to
turn it on and let it rip.
I would cut the water a bit and make sure that I had good quality flour,
bread flour if you can. If you can shorten the proofing time, that's good
too. One way to do this might be to start with cold water, but that's not
very precise; what that would do is delay or retard the initial acitvity of
the yeast. Yeast doubling time is 1 1/2 - 2 hours at optimum temperature,
which is 28C, or 82F. It slows at higher and lower temperatures, and at
57F it takes four times as long to produce a generation, double. So if the
yeast stays active for 2 hours, there are twice as many of the little guys
and gals breathing and putting out CO2 as there were at the beginning.
This is what gives rise to bread. If you retard the initial recovery from
the lag phase, the first few minutes of the process, then you lengthen the
time that it takes the yeast to double, which reduces the amount of gas
produced but also assures that the yeast doesn't exhaust its food supply.
and can still produce gas into the baking time, oven spring.
What proportion of salt are you using? It should be something around 1.8
to 2% of the weight of flour, or between 1/2 and 5/8 ounce for a 30 ounces
of flour loaf. I doubt salt is the problem, but it's best to check.
Sorry for the long answer, but this is an interesting problem, something
that may have several causes, all interacting.
Cheers,
Barry
news:op.wcgcx...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com:
center, or does the loaf look all right after baking and then sag in the
center? The timing of the collapse can hint at the cause.
The holes in the top being larger than the holes in the bottom is normal.
Think of the weight of the dough bearing down on teh poor little yeasties
and the gas that they produce. If there is a lot of pressure, then the gas
will be relatively compressed and will have a hard time expanding. That's
the case at the bottom. On the other hand, the guys at the top have
nothing to impede their development, so they can go wild. The result is
larger holes at the top of the loaf than at the bottom. This is normal in
all breads.
The countermeasure is to flip the loaf 15 minutes prior to baking, which
gives a chance for things to sort of even out.
A flying crust (tunnel crust), a topic of much debate on the board, is
another thing entirely.
The flying crust is the result of several things.
1. Over proofing. The loaf expands, then the yeast runs out of energy
(food) and stops expanding.
2. The crust has been allowed to dry out a bit, becoming a bit hard.
3. The interior of the loaf collapses, but the crust is now dry, so it
doesn't fall back (collapse) with the center, which leaves a hole between
the crust and the crumb.
4. The unwitting baker then bakes the loaf. The crust bakes up nicely,
but the crumb, having run out of energy and fallen, doesn't rise very much,
which leaves a hole under the crust down the center of the loaf -- a
tunnel.
If the loaf collapses during baking, that means that it isn't getting
enough energy to raise the crust up. This may be caused by too long a
proof. This gets my vote as the problem here. You may also have used weak
flour -- all purpose or cake flour instead of bread flour, although one can
make excellent bread with all purpose flour, it just takes a bit of
thought.
If the loaf collapses after baking, i.e., during cooling, that may indicate
that the loaf is underbaked, the crumb hasn't baked fully, leaving a bit of
damp crumb, which hasn't baked fully and thus can't support the crust.
Assuming a 48 ounce loaf of 30 ounces of flour (60% hydration), the 0.3
ounces is 1% yeast, which should be okay for a normal loaf. (However, if
the dough has oil, fat or a lot of sugar in it, you could need as much as
3% yeast; if it has a lot of whole wheat, you may need 1 1/2 to 2% yeast.)
Cutting the amount of yeast may be a way of cutting proofing time in a
fixed-clock-time machine -- in a machine where you have no option but to
turn it on and let it rip.
I would cut the water a bit and make sure that I had good quality flour,
bread flour if you can. If you can shorten the proofing time, that's good
too. One way to do this might be to start with cold water, but that's not
very precise; what that would do is delay or retard the initial acitvity of
the yeast. Yeast doubling time is 1 1/2 - 2 hours at optimum temperature,
which is 28C, or 82F. It slows at higher and lower temperatures, and at
57F it takes four times as long to produce a generation, double. So if the
yeast stays active for 2 hours, there are twice as many of the little guys
and gals breathing and putting out CO2 as there were at the beginning.
This is what gives rise to bread. If you retard the initial recovery from
the lag phase, the first few minutes of the process, then you lengthen the
time that it takes the yeast to double, which reduces the amount of gas
produced but also assures that the yeast doesn't exhaust its food supply.
and can still produce gas into the baking time, oven spring.
What proportion of salt are you using? It should be something around 1.8
to 2% of the weight of flour, or between 1/2 and 5/8 ounce for a 30 ounces
of flour loaf. I doubt salt is the problem, but it's best to check.
Sorry for the long answer, but this is an interesting problem, something
that may have several causes, all interacting.
Cheers,
Barry
ceed
Apr 11, 2012, 8:12:34 PM4/11/12
to
On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 18:32:41 -0500, Barry Harmon <john...@optonline.net>
wrote:
> Hi,
>>
>> I have a large family and was looking for a bread machine that makes
>> 3lb loaves. I found one which makes great bread in all sizes (2, 2.5
>> and 3 lb loaves). It has produced bread daily for a year now and
>> works great. However, the 3 lb loaves gets really high and sometimes
>> they collapse a bit in the middle while baking. It's not a complete
>> collapse, but it bothers me that they're not always perfect. Other
>> sizes do not have that problem. What I wondered if there's anything I
>> can do to my recipes to lower the chances of collapse? I have tried a
>> little bit less moisture, but it doesn't seem to help. I have come to
>> the conclusion that this is a weakness in the machine programming, or
>> maybe that perfect 3 lb loaves are too much to ask for in a break
>> machine, but I thought I would ask here anyway.
>>
> When do you see the collapse? Is it that the loaf doeasn't rise in the
> center, or does the loaf look all right after baking and then sag in the
> center? The timing of the collapse can hint at the cause.
It rises all the way, but during initial baking it collapses in the middle.
> The holes in the top being larger than the holes in the bottom is normal.
> Think of the weight of the dough bearing down on teh poor little yeasties
> and the gas that they produce. If there is a lot of pressure, then the
> gas
> will be relatively compressed and will have a hard time expanding.
> That's
> the case at the bottom. On the other hand, the guys at the top have
> nothing to impede their development, so they can go wild. The result is
> larger holes at the top of the loaf than at the bottom. This is normal
> in
> all breads.
> The countermeasure is to flip the loaf 15 minutes prior to baking, which
> gives a chance for things to sort of even out.
Even in a bread machine?
> A flying crust (tunnel crust), a topic of much debate on the board, is
> another thing entirely.
> The flying crust is the result of several things.
> 1. Over proofing. The loaf expands, then the yeast runs out of energy
> (food) and stops expanding.
> 2. The crust has been allowed to dry out a bit, becoming a bit hard.
> 3. The interior of the loaf collapses, but the crust is now dry, so it
> doesn't fall back (collapse) with the center, which leaves a hole between
> the crust and the crumb.
> 4. The unwitting baker then bakes the loaf. The crust bakes up nicely,
> but the crumb, having run out of energy and fallen, doesn't rise very
> much,
> which leaves a hole under the crust down the center of the loaf -- a
> tunnel.
> If the loaf collapses during baking, that means that it isn't getting
> enough energy to raise the crust up. This may be caused by too long a
> proof. This gets my vote as the problem here. You may also have used
> weak
> flour -- all purpose or cake flour instead of bread flour, although one
> can
> make excellent bread with all purpose flour, it just takes a bit of
> thought.
I'm using cheap all purpose flour. So there! :) With the volume of bread
I make it simply gets too expensive with fancy artisan flour. What I
usually get is 25 lb bags of Pioneer all purpose flour. Is there any other
lower priced flour I should try?
Thank you! Lot's of food, or bread, for thought! :)
> What proportion of salt are you using? It should be something around 1.8
> to 2% of the weight of flour, or between 1/2 and 5/8 ounce for a 30
> ounces
> of flour loaf.
I'm using 13-15 g salt for a 3 lb loaf.
> I doubt salt is the problem, but it's best to check.
> Sorry for the long answer, but this is an interesting problem, something
> that may have several causes, all interacting.
I'm baking tonight, so we'll see how it goes after having been through
this thread. Thank you, and the others who responded. I will report back
on results. If I fail the kids lunches tomorrow will be.....an apple! :)
wrote:
> Hi,
>>
>> I have a large family and was looking for a bread machine that makes
>> 3lb loaves. I found one which makes great bread in all sizes (2, 2.5
>> and 3 lb loaves). It has produced bread daily for a year now and
>> works great. However, the 3 lb loaves gets really high and sometimes
>> they collapse a bit in the middle while baking. It's not a complete
>> collapse, but it bothers me that they're not always perfect. Other
>> sizes do not have that problem. What I wondered if there's anything I
>> can do to my recipes to lower the chances of collapse? I have tried a
>> little bit less moisture, but it doesn't seem to help. I have come to
>> the conclusion that this is a weakness in the machine programming, or
>> maybe that perfect 3 lb loaves are too much to ask for in a break
>> machine, but I thought I would ask here anyway.
>>
> When do you see the collapse? Is it that the loaf doeasn't rise in the
> center, or does the loaf look all right after baking and then sag in the
> center? The timing of the collapse can hint at the cause.
> The holes in the top being larger than the holes in the bottom is normal.
> Think of the weight of the dough bearing down on teh poor little yeasties
> and the gas that they produce. If there is a lot of pressure, then the
> gas
> will be relatively compressed and will have a hard time expanding.
> That's
> the case at the bottom. On the other hand, the guys at the top have
> nothing to impede their development, so they can go wild. The result is
> larger holes at the top of the loaf than at the bottom. This is normal
> in
> all breads.
> The countermeasure is to flip the loaf 15 minutes prior to baking, which
> gives a chance for things to sort of even out.
> A flying crust (tunnel crust), a topic of much debate on the board, is
> another thing entirely.
> The flying crust is the result of several things.
> 1. Over proofing. The loaf expands, then the yeast runs out of energy
> (food) and stops expanding.
> 2. The crust has been allowed to dry out a bit, becoming a bit hard.
> 3. The interior of the loaf collapses, but the crust is now dry, so it
> doesn't fall back (collapse) with the center, which leaves a hole between
> the crust and the crumb.
> 4. The unwitting baker then bakes the loaf. The crust bakes up nicely,
> but the crumb, having run out of energy and fallen, doesn't rise very
> much,
> which leaves a hole under the crust down the center of the loaf -- a
> tunnel.
> If the loaf collapses during baking, that means that it isn't getting
> enough energy to raise the crust up. This may be caused by too long a
> proof. This gets my vote as the problem here. You may also have used
> weak
> flour -- all purpose or cake flour instead of bread flour, although one
> can
> make excellent bread with all purpose flour, it just takes a bit of
> thought.
I make it simply gets too expensive with fancy artisan flour. What I
usually get is 25 lb bags of Pioneer all purpose flour. Is there any other
lower priced flour I should try?
> What proportion of salt are you using? It should be something around 1.8
> to 2% of the weight of flour, or between 1/2 and 5/8 ounce for a 30
> ounces
> of flour loaf.
> I doubt salt is the problem, but it's best to check.
> Sorry for the long answer, but this is an interesting problem, something
> that may have several causes, all interacting.
this thread. Thank you, and the others who responded. I will report back
on results. If I fail the kids lunches tomorrow will be.....an apple! :)
Barry Harmon
Apr 12, 2012, 2:09:48 PM4/12/12
to
ceed <ce...@is.indeed.invalid> wrote in
news:op.wcmli...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com:
The loaf collapsing during baking is probably caused by a wet bread that
has risen too long, but I could be wrong. It could also be caused by
weak flour, which would approximate the same conditions -- too much
water and depleated yeast activity.
All purpose flour takes less water than bread flour, so if your recipe
is optimised for bread flour, you may be adding too much water. This is
a guess, but try reducing the amount of water by a bit and see what
happens. If the loaf is 30 ounces of flour and 18 of water, try 16
ounces and see what happens. I"d also reduce the yeast a bit. Your
scale probably isn't accurate enough to measure yeast, so work it out in
increments of 1/4 teaspoons. A packet is 1/4 ounce and 7 measures of
1/4 teaspoon. Work it out from there.
As for flipping a loaf in the bread machine, short of standing the
machine on its head, there is no way. Someone may have figured a way,
but I don't know enough about bread machines to comment.
You didn't say where you live. In the US, you can try the "bread
flour" at Costco, which is $20 for 50 pounds, last I looked. I put
bread flour in quotes because I don't know what the flour is, but they
call it bread flour, so who am I to argue? I assume that Sam's Club and
the other big box stores and warehouses have the same things. In New
Jersey, we have Corrado's, which sells Bay State Milling flours, which
are also good, at decent prices. take a look around and you might find
something similar. Superemarket all purpose is tricky stuff to bake
bread with. I've done it, but it can get exasperating.
You could also look for a food supply house, like Dawn, Porky's or US
Foodservice, and see if you can find one near you. I know for a fact
that Dawn will sell on a "will call" basis. You call and tell them what
you want and they will set it aside for you to pick up. You will be
able to buy General Mills Harvest King, for example, in 50 pound bags.
You will also have access to a myriad of other flours.
As an alternative, you could go to a local bakery or bagel shop and see
if they will let you order along with them. You would order a 50 pound
bag of flour and pay for it, plus a bit a baksheesh for the baker for
the trouble. It's a long shot, but worth a try, especially if you tell
them what your situation is.
Go on the General Mills web site, http:\\www.gmiflour.com, and take a
look at the flours that they make. You'll also find data sheets, which
no other miller bothers with, which is one big reason I like GM flours.
Look for a protein content of 12-13% and an ash content of 0.52% or
thereabouts. These will give you a good flour with the protein and
mineral content to make good bread. You might be tempted to get the
veery high protein flour, like All Trumps (14%), but that stuff doesn't
work too well for normal breads.
An ounce is about 28 grams, so your 13-15 grms for 30 ounces is 15 grams
for 840 of flour, about 1.8%, which is close enough.
Cheers,
Barry
news:op.wcmli...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com:
has risen too long, but I could be wrong. It could also be caused by
weak flour, which would approximate the same conditions -- too much
water and depleated yeast activity.
All purpose flour takes less water than bread flour, so if your recipe
is optimised for bread flour, you may be adding too much water. This is
a guess, but try reducing the amount of water by a bit and see what
happens. If the loaf is 30 ounces of flour and 18 of water, try 16
ounces and see what happens. I"d also reduce the yeast a bit. Your
scale probably isn't accurate enough to measure yeast, so work it out in
increments of 1/4 teaspoons. A packet is 1/4 ounce and 7 measures of
1/4 teaspoon. Work it out from there.
As for flipping a loaf in the bread machine, short of standing the
machine on its head, there is no way. Someone may have figured a way,
but I don't know enough about bread machines to comment.
You didn't say where you live. In the US, you can try the "bread
flour" at Costco, which is $20 for 50 pounds, last I looked. I put
bread flour in quotes because I don't know what the flour is, but they
call it bread flour, so who am I to argue? I assume that Sam's Club and
the other big box stores and warehouses have the same things. In New
Jersey, we have Corrado's, which sells Bay State Milling flours, which
are also good, at decent prices. take a look around and you might find
something similar. Superemarket all purpose is tricky stuff to bake
bread with. I've done it, but it can get exasperating.
You could also look for a food supply house, like Dawn, Porky's or US
Foodservice, and see if you can find one near you. I know for a fact
that Dawn will sell on a "will call" basis. You call and tell them what
you want and they will set it aside for you to pick up. You will be
able to buy General Mills Harvest King, for example, in 50 pound bags.
You will also have access to a myriad of other flours.
As an alternative, you could go to a local bakery or bagel shop and see
if they will let you order along with them. You would order a 50 pound
bag of flour and pay for it, plus a bit a baksheesh for the baker for
the trouble. It's a long shot, but worth a try, especially if you tell
them what your situation is.
Go on the General Mills web site, http:\\www.gmiflour.com, and take a
look at the flours that they make. You'll also find data sheets, which
no other miller bothers with, which is one big reason I like GM flours.
Look for a protein content of 12-13% and an ash content of 0.52% or
thereabouts. These will give you a good flour with the protein and
mineral content to make good bread. You might be tempted to get the
veery high protein flour, like All Trumps (14%), but that stuff doesn't
work too well for normal breads.
An ounce is about 28 grams, so your 13-15 grms for 30 ounces is 15 grams
for 840 of flour, about 1.8%, which is close enough.
Cheers,
Barry
Janet Bostwick
Apr 12, 2012, 3:40:33 PM4/12/12
to
On 12 Apr 2012 18:09:48 GMT, Barry Harmon <john...@optonline.net>
wrote:
snip
>Cheers,
>
>Barry
When you say weak flour, are you meaning a component of the dough that
has broken down because of a lengthy rise?
Janet
wrote:
snip
>>
>
>The loaf collapsing during baking is probably caused by a wet bread that
>has risen too long, but I could be wrong. It could also be caused by
>weak flour, which would approximate the same conditions -- too much
>water and depleated yeast activity.
>
snip
>
>The loaf collapsing during baking is probably caused by a wet bread that
>has risen too long, but I could be wrong. It could also be caused by
>weak flour, which would approximate the same conditions -- too much
>water and depleated yeast activity.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Barry
When you say weak flour, are you meaning a component of the dough that
has broken down because of a lengthy rise?
Janet
Barry Harmon
Apr 12, 2012, 10:01:28 PM4/12/12
to
Janet Bostwick <nos...@cableone.net> wrote in
news:jnbeo79repuqbt894...@4ax.com:
Hi,
I meant weak as in low protein and ash, but the same result could come
from an overlong fermentation. I realize these are two different
things, and the long rise will lead to other complications, such as a
potential dry crust and collapsing crumb (aka flying crust.)
I think the OP's problem is a lengthy rise causing a collapsing of the
crumb, but the crust is kept moist by the bread machine being somewhat
seqaled, so the crust doesn't dry out. Then, when the crumb collapses,
the crust falls with it instead of standing proud as in a flying crust.
There's another difference between a flying crust in a regular oven and
a bread machine. The dough going into a regular oven is hit with a
blast of hot air, which starts the crust cooking and prevents it from
falling back with the crumb. The bread machine, on the other hand, has
to heat up, which prolongs the rise, I think. Not a big problem, but
something to consider. SInce the crust is soft, it can fall back with
the crumb.
Think of a professional proofing chamber. It has 90% humidity and 85F
temp. We can come close to this by having the kitchen warm, putting a
towel over the dough and then spritzing the towel from time to time.
Under those conditions, we probably won't have a flying crust, but that
won't stop the center of the loaf from collapsing. So even if you keep
the surface damp, you will still get some of the "benefits" of a flying
crust if you let the loaf proof too long.
The OP didn't mention the color of the finished loaf. My experience is
that an over-proofed loaf won't brown properly, since the nutrients
necessary for the Maillard reaction to proceed aren't present in the
crust in sufficient amounts. (That's an awkward sentence. Let's try
again.) The crust doens't have the nutrients to support the Maillard
reaction. Or a Mallard duck. Usually, when I've let a loaf proof too
long, it turns out blah, with a whitish crust that's incredibly thick
and tough. I refer to these as baseball bats. I don't know if
conditions were bad enough to do this to Ceed's bread.
Barry
news:jnbeo79repuqbt894...@4ax.com:
I meant weak as in low protein and ash, but the same result could come
from an overlong fermentation. I realize these are two different
things, and the long rise will lead to other complications, such as a
potential dry crust and collapsing crumb (aka flying crust.)
I think the OP's problem is a lengthy rise causing a collapsing of the
crumb, but the crust is kept moist by the bread machine being somewhat
seqaled, so the crust doesn't dry out. Then, when the crumb collapses,
the crust falls with it instead of standing proud as in a flying crust.
There's another difference between a flying crust in a regular oven and
a bread machine. The dough going into a regular oven is hit with a
blast of hot air, which starts the crust cooking and prevents it from
falling back with the crumb. The bread machine, on the other hand, has
to heat up, which prolongs the rise, I think. Not a big problem, but
something to consider. SInce the crust is soft, it can fall back with
the crumb.
Think of a professional proofing chamber. It has 90% humidity and 85F
temp. We can come close to this by having the kitchen warm, putting a
towel over the dough and then spritzing the towel from time to time.
Under those conditions, we probably won't have a flying crust, but that
won't stop the center of the loaf from collapsing. So even if you keep
the surface damp, you will still get some of the "benefits" of a flying
crust if you let the loaf proof too long.
The OP didn't mention the color of the finished loaf. My experience is
that an over-proofed loaf won't brown properly, since the nutrients
necessary for the Maillard reaction to proceed aren't present in the
crust in sufficient amounts. (That's an awkward sentence. Let's try
again.) The crust doens't have the nutrients to support the Maillard
reaction. Or a Mallard duck. Usually, when I've let a loaf proof too
long, it turns out blah, with a whitish crust that's incredibly thick
and tough. I refer to these as baseball bats. I don't know if
conditions were bad enough to do this to Ceed's bread.
Barry
ceed
Apr 13, 2012, 12:25:44 AM4/13/12
to
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:01:28 -0500, Barry Harmon <john...@optonline.net>
wrote:
I reduced the yeast to 6g (from 9) and it's clearly better, but still
lower in the top middle than around the edges. I looked at it when it was
starting to bake and it looked fine, but 10-15 minutes later I noticed
the, now smaller, collapse again. It's not a dome shape which is what I'm
used to. I also noticed that the bread is airier and looser in the top
half middle than the bottom and around the edges. Should I try to reduce
the yeast even more? I use the exact same recipe for 2, 2.5 and 3 lb
loaves (ingredients reduced according to size of course), but it's only
the 3 lb loaves have the collapsing center.
wrote:
lower in the top middle than around the edges. I looked at it when it was
starting to bake and it looked fine, but 10-15 minutes later I noticed
the, now smaller, collapse again. It's not a dome shape which is what I'm
used to. I also noticed that the bread is airier and looser in the top
half middle than the bottom and around the edges. Should I try to reduce
the yeast even more? I use the exact same recipe for 2, 2.5 and 3 lb
loaves (ingredients reduced according to size of course), but it's only
the 3 lb loaves have the collapsing center.
~misfit~
Apr 13, 2012, 7:20:21 AM4/13/12
to
how that goes.
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
Barry Harmon
Apr 13, 2012, 9:46:53 AM4/13/12
to
ceed <ce...@is.indeed.invalid> wrote in
news:op.wcorw...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com:
(Shameless plug to follow)
Go to this link http://artisanbreadbaking.com/problems/ and look at the
Punch-In Test, right near the top.
If you can separate the rising from baking, in other words if you can bake
at any point in the cycle, do the following.
Set the machine to raise the dough.
After 2/3 or 3/4 of the total rising time, do the punch-in test.
You have three options here.
A. If the dough is done rising, bake it.
B. If the dough isn't done rising, give it a bit more time. Then check
it.
C. If the dough isn't done rising, bake it.
A is the normal timing.
B is also normal timing.
C is what I think you'll wind up doing, which is baking a dough that is a
little under risen, but still acceptable. This is also called a young
dough. If you do this and it works, take note of the timing.
You really should try to find a source of better (closer to bread flour)
flour. I think your problems arise from trying to bake a large loaf with
low protein flour.
I would also reduce the water by some amount, like 10% of the total, and
see what happens. Bread flour requires more water than does all porpoise
flour. I think reducing the water will give you a stiffer dough, which
might (should) be more resistant to collapse, especially if you can figure
out a way to bake the dough a bit sooner (younger) than normal.
I think the problem boils down to
weak flour
wet recipe (caused by weak flour needing less water)
overlong rising (again, caused by weak flour)
large loaf (giving more volume and surface area for the collapse to work
on) If you were making 2 ounce rolls, you wouldn't get much if any
collapse, or if you did, you wouldn't notice it.
I'll bet this has been more fun for me than for you, but hang in there,
you'll nail it.
Barry
news:op.wcorw...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com:
Go to this link http://artisanbreadbaking.com/problems/ and look at the
Punch-In Test, right near the top.
If you can separate the rising from baking, in other words if you can bake
at any point in the cycle, do the following.
Set the machine to raise the dough.
After 2/3 or 3/4 of the total rising time, do the punch-in test.
You have three options here.
A. If the dough is done rising, bake it.
B. If the dough isn't done rising, give it a bit more time. Then check
it.
C. If the dough isn't done rising, bake it.
A is the normal timing.
B is also normal timing.
C is what I think you'll wind up doing, which is baking a dough that is a
little under risen, but still acceptable. This is also called a young
dough. If you do this and it works, take note of the timing.
You really should try to find a source of better (closer to bread flour)
flour. I think your problems arise from trying to bake a large loaf with
low protein flour.
I would also reduce the water by some amount, like 10% of the total, and
see what happens. Bread flour requires more water than does all porpoise
flour. I think reducing the water will give you a stiffer dough, which
might (should) be more resistant to collapse, especially if you can figure
out a way to bake the dough a bit sooner (younger) than normal.
I think the problem boils down to
weak flour
wet recipe (caused by weak flour needing less water)
overlong rising (again, caused by weak flour)
large loaf (giving more volume and surface area for the collapse to work
on) If you were making 2 ounce rolls, you wouldn't get much if any
collapse, or if you did, you wouldn't notice it.
I'll bet this has been more fun for me than for you, but hang in there,
you'll nail it.
Barry
ceed
Apr 13, 2012, 3:15:16 PM4/13/12
to
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:09:48 -0500, Barry Harmon <john...@optonline.net>
Thanks again! I'm off to Costco today to check out what they have here?
I'm located in Austin, TX btw.
I'm located in Austin, TX btw.
ceed
Apr 13, 2012, 3:17:44 PM4/13/12
to
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:46:53 -0500, Barry Harmon <john...@optonline.net>
wrote:
I have gotten more information here than I normally get in a year roaming
the web! Thanks, and I will nail it. First off to find better flour! :)
wrote:
the web! Thanks, and I will nail it. First off to find better flour! :)
Barry Harmon
Apr 13, 2012, 4:14:52 PM4/13/12
to
ceed <ce...@is.indeed.invalid> wrote in
news:op.wcpw3...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com:
Ah! Baja Oklahoma! lol.
Try
US Foodservice, 979 Springdale Rd, Austin 512-927-3400
Labatt Food Service 512-707-8288
I did a search on food distribution austin texas and got a large bunch of
hits. Maybe something will click for you.
Cheers,
Barry
news:op.wcpw3...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com:
Try
US Foodservice, 979 Springdale Rd, Austin 512-927-3400
Labatt Food Service 512-707-8288
I did a search on food distribution austin texas and got a large bunch of
hits. Maybe something will click for you.
Cheers,
Barry
Bertie Doe
Apr 19, 2012, 3:54:56 AM4/19/12
to
A trip down 'memory lane' here. My intro to home breadmaking, was via a
cheap branded machine and had about 5 years of pleasure from it. My first
bad experience was similar to yours ceed. I didn't realise that the
machines' program is for "Special breadmaking Yeast" mostly sold in sachets.
The special yeast is designed (some say, genetically) to rise only ONCE.
This speeds up the whole process. Also the special breadmaker yeast does not
need to be re-activated.
Instead, I used ordinary Active Dried Yeast, which takes about 10 minutes to
re-activate. It's also a much slower yeast and most folk use it for
hand-thrown loaves and is meant to rise TWICE.
The poor old machine didn't know I was using the wrong yeast and went into
the 'bake cycle' before the dough was properly risen!!!
The problem was, I had a large 125g tub of this yeast. The solution was
simple;- use it in the machine, but use the 'dough cycle'. After the dough
cycle completes, WAIT till the dough has risen to the top of the pan, then
press 'Bake'.
The moral is ceed. If you see tubs of ordinary active yeast going cheap on
special, ignore it and stick to your usual sachets of 'Breadmaker Yeast'.
Bertie
Ophelia
Apr 19, 2012, 10:36:05 AM4/19/12
to
"Bertie Doe" <monteb...@ntl.com> wrote in message
news:9v9umo...@mid.individual.net...
problems with fast acting yeast. Actually, if you look at recipes which
give ONE rise, then that is ok, but as I am sure you know very well, if you
try to do a second rise you are stuffed! I don't buy that stuff any more!
I decided only yesterday, that my bread machine is going out. I used to
use it when I was busy just for the knead but really, it is a waste of space
and it doesn't take too much watching to just use the Kenwood! I haven't
made bread for a wee while because we have been following a low carb way of
eating, but hubby asked for my bread and I am now in heaven:))
--
http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/
Bertie Doe
Apr 19, 2012, 12:18:33 PM4/19/12
to
"Ophelia" wrote in message news:9vam97...@mid.individual.net...
/I have to agree!!! I have had several people asking me why they were
having
/problems with fast acting yeast. Actually, if you look at recipes which
/give ONE rise, then that is ok, but as I am sure you know very well, if you
/try to do a second rise you are stuffed! I don't buy that stuff any more!
/
/I decided only yesterday, that my bread machine is going out. I used to
/use it when I was busy just for the knead but really, it is a waste of
space
/and it doesn't take too much watching to just use the Kenwood! I haven't
/made bread for a wee while because we have been following a low carb way of
/eating, but hubby asked for my bread and I am now in heaven:))
/
When my bread machine gave up the ghost, I won a Kenwood 701A on eBay. I
thought the price was to good to be true. Further research found that they'd
stopped making the 701A in 1980. Fortunately they're built like a tank and
it's still working fine.
Ophelia
Apr 19, 2012, 1:29:13 PM4/19/12
to
news:9vas6v...@mid.individual.net...
Is that Kenwood a mixer or bread machine? My current mixer is around 20 yrs
old and I had one for many years before that. It does everything I need.
--
http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/
old and I had one for many years before that. It does everything I need.
--
http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/
graham
Apr 20, 2012, 12:36:01 AM4/20/12
to
news:9v9umo...@mid.individual.net...
the CO2.
I've been using it for many years and never had any trouble with the second
rise.
Graham
>
>
> A trip down 'memory lane' here. My intro to home breadmaking, was via a
> cheap branded machine and had about 5 years of pleasure from it. My first
> bad experience was similar to yours ceed. I didn't realise that the
> machines' program is for "Special breadmaking Yeast" mostly sold in
> sachets.
> The special yeast is designed (some say, genetically) to rise only ONCE.
Really? This doesn't make sense. It's a fungus. It breeds while producing
>
> A trip down 'memory lane' here. My intro to home breadmaking, was via a
> cheap branded machine and had about 5 years of pleasure from it. My first
> bad experience was similar to yours ceed. I didn't realise that the
> machines' program is for "Special breadmaking Yeast" mostly sold in
> sachets.
> The special yeast is designed (some say, genetically) to rise only ONCE.
the CO2.
I've been using it for many years and never had any trouble with the second
rise.
Graham
Bertie Doe
Apr 20, 2012, 3:20:34 AM4/20/12
to
"graham" wrote in message news:SI5kr.12113$mL3....@newsfe23.iad...
"Bertie Doe" <monteb...@ntl.com> wrote in message
news:9v9umo...@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> A trip down 'memory lane' here. My intro to home breadmaking, was via a
> cheap branded machine and had about 5 years of pleasure from it. My first
> bad experience was similar to yours ceed. I didn't realise that the
> machines' program is for "Special breadmaking Yeast" mostly sold in
> sachets.
> The special yeast is designed (some say, genetically) to rise only ONCE.
/the CO2.
/I've been using it for many years and never had any trouble with the second
/rise.
Graham, I was referring to the special yeast for bread machines. "Some say
genetically" is a reference to the fact that the yeast has been "modified"
to rise once. This 'one rise' yeast works nicely with the short bread
machine cycles. I personally prefer to use the word "tweaked".
The question is, why isn't everyone using special bread machine yeast? When
hand-throwing loaves, a one-rise yeast has to be a lot less hassle? I don't
recall any bread book authors write 'regular standard dried yeast tastes
better than bread machine yeast'.
Bertie Doe
Apr 20, 2012, 3:40:38 AM4/20/12
to
"Bertie Doe" wrote in message news:9vch2a...@mid.individual.net...
"graham" wrote in message news:SI5kr.12113$mL3....@newsfe23.iad...
"Bertie Doe" <monteb...@ntl.com> wrote in message
news:9v9umo...@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> A trip down 'memory lane' here. My intro to home breadmaking, was via a
> cheap branded machine and had about 5 years of pleasure from it. My first
> bad experience was similar to yours ceed. I didn't realise that the
> machines' program is for "Special breadmaking Yeast" mostly sold in
> sachets.
> The special yeast is designed (some say, genetically) to rise only ONCE.
/Really? This doesn't make sense. It's a fungus. It breeds while producing
/the CO2.
/I've been using it for many years and never had any trouble with the second
/rise.
.genetically" is a reference to the fact that the yeast has been "modified"
.to rise once. This 'one rise' yeast works nicely with the short bread
.machine cycles. I personally prefer to use the word "tweaked".
.
.The question is, why isn't everyone using special bread machine yeast? When
.hand-throwing loaves, a one-rise yeast has to be a lot less hassle? I don't
.recall any bread book authors write 'regular standard dried yeast tastes
.better than bread machine yeast'.
Here is one example of 'some say' "genetic engineering has made it possible
to modify bacteria and fungi"
http://www.gmo-compass.org/eng/grocery_shopping/ingredients_additives/36.gm_microorganisms_taking_place_chemical_factories.html
Whether it's true or not, remains to be seen. I still prefer 'tweaked'.
Barry Harmon
Apr 20, 2012, 1:26:47 PM4/20/12
to
"Bertie Doe" <monteb...@ntl.com> wrote in
news:9vci7u...@mid.individual.net:
once." The yeast doesn't know it is only "rising once," since each
multiplication is independent of the one before. If the yeast
reproduced sexually, then I could see it. However, yeast divides, which
means that one cell becomes two independent cells. Do these two new
cells then die? The whole thing doesn't seem to hang together too well.
Maybe the deal is that it works so quickly tht you only need one rise.
Maybe there's also a very short lag time -- time between wetting and
activation of the group.
The whole thing smacks of the old adage "Carry him around for luck, use
him as a hockey puck. The clam don't care."
Maybe I should get some bead machine yeast and experiment. If the stuff
weren't so expensive, I might do just that.
Barry
Janet Bostwick
Apr 20, 2012, 1:48:06 PM4/20/12
to
On 20 Apr 2012 17:26:47 GMT, Barry Harmon <john...@optonline.net>
wrote:
This is what Fleischmanns Yeast has to say about their bread
machine/rapid rise yeast
"•Reduces rising time by as much as 50% by eliminating the first rise
•Instant yeast designed for mixing directly with other dry ingredients
before use
•Can be used in all your recipes (even those before RapidRise™ Yeast -
introduced in 1984)
•For use in your oven or bread machine
•Available in strip of three 1/4 oz. envelopes
•Same as Instant and Bread Machine Yeast"
I guess then we must question whether there is any flavor or texture
development given over to more than one rise?
Janet
wrote:
machine/rapid rise yeast
"•Reduces rising time by as much as 50% by eliminating the first rise
•Instant yeast designed for mixing directly with other dry ingredients
before use
•Can be used in all your recipes (even those before RapidRise™ Yeast -
introduced in 1984)
•For use in your oven or bread machine
•Available in strip of three 1/4 oz. envelopes
•Same as Instant and Bread Machine Yeast"
I guess then we must question whether there is any flavor or texture
development given over to more than one rise?
Janet
Bertie Doe
Apr 20, 2012, 1:55:54 PM4/20/12
to
"Barry Harmon" wrote in message
news:XnsA03B88C7D1B54jo...@209.197.15.254...
/once." The yeast doesn't know it is only "rising once," since each
/multiplication is independent of the one before. If the yeast
/reproduced sexually, then I could see it. However, yeast divides, which
/means that one cell becomes two independent cells. Do these two new
/cells then die? The whole thing doesn't seem to hang together too well.
/
/Maybe the deal is that it works so quickly tht you only need one rise.
/Maybe there's also a very short lag time -- time between wetting and
/activation of the group.
/
/The whole thing smacks of the old adage "Carry him around for luck, use
/him as a hockey puck. The clam don't care."
/
/Maybe I should get some bead machine yeast and experiment. If the stuff
/weren't so expensive, I might do just that.
/
/Barry
Barry I think you're description is more accurate. From memory, may late
dearly departed budget "Cookworks" breadmachine's basic strong white loaf
program lasted 2 hours. The bake cycle was 45 mins which just left 1hr
15mins for the mixing and proofing, which obviously isn't long enough to
rise twice. Hence the need for a special superfast yeast????
Here is a good page on yeast types:-
http://whatscookingamerica.net/Bread/yeastbreadtip.htm
Under the paragraph on 'Substitution' the author refers to superfast bread
machine yeast as "genetically engineered". I don't necessarily agree with
this, as there is no evidence of patents applied for GM yeast. Anyway happy
........ tweaking.
Bertie
Bertie Doe
Apr 20, 2012, 2:04:16 PM4/20/12
to
"Janet Bostwick" wrote in message
news:i683p7dpqc3df6dr3...@4ax.com...
/machine/rapid rise yeast
/"•Reduces rising time by as much as 50% by eliminating the first rise
/•Instant yeast designed for mixing directly with other dry ingredients
/before use
/•Can be used in all your recipes (even those before RapidRise™ Yeast -
/introduced in 1984)
/•For use in your oven or bread machine
/•Available in strip of three 1/4 oz. envelopes
/•Same as Instant and Bread Machine Yeast"
/
/I guess then we must question whether there is any flavor or texture
/development given over to more than one rise?
/Janet
Agreed, you'll lose something in the taste and flavor department, using a
very short cycle. Some of the high-end Panasonics have some very long cycle
programs, which may allow the use of regular dried yeast.
I used to love the 'Dough Only' cycle on mine.
Ophelia
Apr 20, 2012, 2:33:23 PM4/20/12
to
"Janet Bostwick" <nos...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:i683p7dpqc3df6dr3...@4ax.com...
> This is what Fleischmanns Yeast has to say about their bread
> machine/rapid rise yeast
> .Instant yeast designed for mixing directly with other dry ingredients
> before use
> .Can be used in all your recipes (even those before RapidRiseT Yeast -
> introduced in 1984)
> .For use in your oven or bread machine
> .Available in strip of three 1/4 oz. envelopes
> .Same as Instant and Bread Machine Yeast"
>
> I guess then we must question whether there is any flavor or texture
> development given over to more than one rise?
On the subject of the yeast, it took me a wee while to figure out the
> I guess then we must question whether there is any flavor or texture
> development given over to more than one rise?
problem and since then I never use that 'fast rise' stuff. I used to use it
a long time ago when I made bread in the breadmaker but then it does use
'one' rise. I have also seen recipes on packs of flour which called for
'fast rise' yeast and giving instructions for 'one' rise. My problems
started when I used the breadmaker just for mixing and for the first rise.
When I took the dough out and tried to knock it back for a second rise,
sometimes it simply wouldn't rise and had to be thrown out. Since then I
have used the breadmaker for that process, but not with that yeast. I have
no explanation or any scientific reason, I can only describe my experiments
and the results.
--
http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/
Barry Harmon
Apr 20, 2012, 10:26:47 PM4/20/12
to
"Bertie Doe" <monteb...@ntl.com> wrote in
news:9vdm9i...@mid.individual.net:
doing for years, which is selecting the plants or strains that best suit
their needs. Farmers and agricultural researchers do it all the time
and call it selective breeding or improving the breed. What the people
at the yeast companies probably did was to isolate some yeast cells that
worked really fast, a different strain, and then work with those, and
maybe further select from that pool. At the end of three or four
selections, they could indeed have a superfast yeast, one that would
start quickly and expell all sorts of gas really quickly. I don't know
what the multiplication time (doubling or generation time) would be, but
it seems as if doubling time is incidental to what they are trying to
do, which is to create a quick starting, gassy yeast.
Barry
Bertie Doe
Apr 21, 2012, 8:13:36 AM4/21/12
to
"Barry Harmon" wrote in message
/doing for years, which is selecting the plants or strains that best suit
/their needs. Farmers and agricultural researchers do it all the time
/and call it selective breeding or improving the breed. What the people
/at the yeast companies probably did was to isolate some yeast cells that
/worked really fast, a different strain, and then work with those, and
/maybe further select from that pool. At the end of three or four
/selections, they could indeed have a superfast yeast, one that would
/start quickly and expell all sorts of gas really quickly. I don't know
/what the multiplication time (doubling or generation time) would be, but
/it seems as if doubling time is incidental to what they are trying to
/do, which is to create a quick starting, gassy yeast.
/Barry
Yep, it would also be interesting to know what brand of yeast ceed is using?
If it's regular standard dried yeast, used with AP plain flour, you may end
up with less than perfect loaf shape. Mind you, if the taste is great, stick
with the cheaper flour and yeast.
Barry Harmon
Apr 21, 2012, 8:15:09 AM4/21/12
to
ceed <ce...@is.indeed.invalid> wrote in
news:op.wcgcx...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com:
> Hi,
>
> I have a large family and was looking for a bread machine that makes
> 3lb loaves. I found one which makes great bread in all sizes (2, 2.5
> and 3 lb loaves). It has produced bread daily for a year now and
> works great. However, the 3 lb loaves gets really high and sometimes
> they collapse a bit in the middle while baking. It's not a complete
> collapse, but it bothers me that they're not always perfect. Other
> sizes do not have that problem. What I wondered if there's anything I
> can do to my recipes to lower the chances of collapse? I have tried a
> little bit less moisture, but it doesn't seem to help. I have come to
> the conclusion that this is a weakness in the machine programming, or
> maybe that perfect 3 lb loaves are too much to ask for in a break
> machine, but I thought I would ask here anyway.
>
How are your breads turning out? Have you made any changes to your
process? Have you found any sources of flour that you like? Inquiring
minds want to know. lol.
Barry
news:op.wcgcx...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com:
> Hi,
>
> I have a large family and was looking for a bread machine that makes
> 3lb loaves. I found one which makes great bread in all sizes (2, 2.5
> and 3 lb loaves). It has produced bread daily for a year now and
> works great. However, the 3 lb loaves gets really high and sometimes
> they collapse a bit in the middle while baking. It's not a complete
> collapse, but it bothers me that they're not always perfect. Other
> sizes do not have that problem. What I wondered if there's anything I
> can do to my recipes to lower the chances of collapse? I have tried a
> little bit less moisture, but it doesn't seem to help. I have come to
> the conclusion that this is a weakness in the machine programming, or
> maybe that perfect 3 lb loaves are too much to ask for in a break
> machine, but I thought I would ask here anyway.
>
process? Have you found any sources of flour that you like? Inquiring
minds want to know. lol.
Barry
ceed
Apr 21, 2012, 9:13:07 AM4/21/12
to
On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 07:15:09 -0500, Barry Harmon <john...@optonline.net>
wrote:
They are better, much better, but still not "domed" :) I am off to pick up
a 50lb of better flour I ordered Monday. I think that'll take care of it.
The sweet spot seems to be 6 g yeast and 705 g flour for a 3lb loaf using
4 dl water 14 g salt and 18 g sugar.
wrote:
a 50lb of better flour I ordered Monday. I think that'll take care of it.
The sweet spot seems to be 6 g yeast and 705 g flour for a 3lb loaf using
4 dl water 14 g salt and 18 g sugar.
graham
Apr 21, 2012, 9:28:09 AM4/21/12
to
"ceed" <ce...@is.indeed.invalid> wrote in message
news:op.wc39n...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com...
conventional bread, it is completely unnecessary.
Graham
Janet Bostwick
Apr 21, 2012, 10:23:32 AM4/21/12
to
On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 13:13:36 +0100, "Bertie Doe"
<monteb...@ntl.com> wrote:
snip
been priced exactly the same. The wording "cheaper" flour somehow
makes it seem as though All Purpose flour is a lesser quality product.
This isn't so. At least in the US it isn't so. In addition to making
perfectly acceptable bread, this kind of flour is used for cookies,
cakes and other non yeast bread items. In fact, in the US, bread
flour for home bakers is a relatively new thing. Back in the 1960's
when I began making bread, we all used all purpose flour. I don't
remember specifically when bread flour showed up.
Janet US
<monteb...@ntl.com> wrote:
snip
>
>Yep, it would also be interesting to know what brand of yeast ceed is using?
>If it's regular standard dried yeast, used with AP plain flour, you may end
>up with less than perfect loaf shape. Mind you, if the taste is great, stick
>with the cheaper flour and yeast.
>
In my part of the world (western US) AP and Bread flour have always
>Yep, it would also be interesting to know what brand of yeast ceed is using?
>If it's regular standard dried yeast, used with AP plain flour, you may end
>up with less than perfect loaf shape. Mind you, if the taste is great, stick
>with the cheaper flour and yeast.
>
been priced exactly the same. The wording "cheaper" flour somehow
makes it seem as though All Purpose flour is a lesser quality product.
This isn't so. At least in the US it isn't so. In addition to making
perfectly acceptable bread, this kind of flour is used for cookies,
cakes and other non yeast bread items. In fact, in the US, bread
flour for home bakers is a relatively new thing. Back in the 1960's
when I began making bread, we all used all purpose flour. I don't
remember specifically when bread flour showed up.
Janet US
Barry Harmon
Apr 21, 2012, 8:30:11 PM4/21/12
to
Janet Bostwick <nos...@cableone.net> wrote in
news:89g5p7p56k5n8rou3...@4ax.com:
pricing in most of the US, where grocery store AP is $1.59 to 2.49 a bag
and bread flour is $3 and up. Way up.
I agree that you dcan make good bread with either flour, but you have to be
aware that there are differences between AP and bread flour, like water
absorption and ability to withstand multiple rises. They are blended to
different specifications for protein and ash content, which are the
principle cause of the differences.
Barry
Barry Harmon
Apr 21, 2012, 8:38:29 PM4/21/12
to
"graham" <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:LBykr.11219$kb7....@newsfe20.iad:
I looked through the only bread machine bread book I have and all the
white breads take sugar. Which is not surprising, since some people
think that sugar is necessary for dough to rise. Maybe it's in there to
help browning. (?)
Just to show you how authoritative this little book is, here's the
caption for Crusty Cuban Bread: "This ethnic bread is very simnilar to
a French or Italian Bread. It tends to be low rising due to the lack of
oil and small amount of sugar...."
I don't have enough fingers to count all the mistakes in those two
sentences.
Barry
news:LBykr.11219$kb7....@newsfe20.iad:
white breads take sugar. Which is not surprising, since some people
think that sugar is necessary for dough to rise. Maybe it's in there to
help browning. (?)
Just to show you how authoritative this little book is, here's the
caption for Crusty Cuban Bread: "This ethnic bread is very simnilar to
a French or Italian Bread. It tends to be low rising due to the lack of
oil and small amount of sugar...."
I don't have enough fingers to count all the mistakes in those two
sentences.
Barry
Janet Bostwick
Apr 21, 2012, 9:02:48 PM4/21/12
to
On 22 Apr 2012 00:30:11 GMT, Barry Harmon <john...@optonline.net>
wrote:
I didn't know about pricing. Everywhere I have been both have been
priced the same.
Janet
wrote:
priced the same.
Janet
ceed
Apr 21, 2012, 9:09:40 PM4/21/12
to
On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 07:13:36 -0500, Bertie Doe <monteb...@ntl.com>
wrote:
> /Genetic engineering is, in some cases, akin to what farmers have been
> /doing for years, which is selecting the plants or strains that best suit
> /their needs. Farmers and agricultural researchers do it all the time
> /and call it selective breeding or improving the breed. What the people
> /at the yeast companies probably did was to isolate some yeast cells that
> /worked really fast, a different strain, and then work with those, and
> /maybe further select from that pool. At the end of three or four
> /selections, they could indeed have a superfast yeast, one that would
> /start quickly and expell all sorts of gas really quickly. I don't know
> /what the multiplication time (doubling or generation time) would be, but
> /it seems as if doubling time is incidental to what they are trying to
> /do, which is to create a quick starting, gassy yeast.
> /Barry
> Yep, it would also be interesting to know what brand of yeast ceed is
> using? If it's regular standard dried yeast, used with AP plain flour,
> you may end up with less than perfect loaf shape. Mind you, if the taste
> is great, stick with the cheaper flour and yeast.
>
I'm using this yeast (Red Star):
http://is.gd/gRpDiI
I've also used Fleichmann, but this one has been better.
wrote:
> /Genetic engineering is, in some cases, akin to what farmers have been
> /doing for years, which is selecting the plants or strains that best suit
> /their needs. Farmers and agricultural researchers do it all the time
> /and call it selective breeding or improving the breed. What the people
> /at the yeast companies probably did was to isolate some yeast cells that
> /worked really fast, a different strain, and then work with those, and
> /maybe further select from that pool. At the end of three or four
> /selections, they could indeed have a superfast yeast, one that would
> /start quickly and expell all sorts of gas really quickly. I don't know
> /what the multiplication time (doubling or generation time) would be, but
> /it seems as if doubling time is incidental to what they are trying to
> /do, which is to create a quick starting, gassy yeast.
> /Barry
> Yep, it would also be interesting to know what brand of yeast ceed is
> using? If it's regular standard dried yeast, used with AP plain flour,
> you may end up with less than perfect loaf shape. Mind you, if the taste
> is great, stick with the cheaper flour and yeast.
>
http://is.gd/gRpDiI
I've also used Fleichmann, but this one has been better.
ceed
Apr 21, 2012, 9:16:32 PM4/21/12
to
On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 19:30:11 -0500, Barry Harmon <john...@optonline.net>
wrote:
> The connotation that all porpoise is cheaper probably comes from the
> pricing in most of the US, where grocery store AP is $1.59 to 2.49 a bag
> and bread flour is $3 and up. Way up.
> I agree that you dcan make good bread with either flour, but you have to
> be
> aware that there are differences between AP and bread flour, like water
> absorption and ability to withstand multiple rises. They are blended to
> different specifications for protein and ash content, which are the
> principle cause of the differences.
What puzzles me is that the price difference between your every day all
purpose and the more "artisan" flours are enormous. It's like they try to
profit off the snobby occasional home made bread crowd. Those who bake the
perfect loaf once or twice a month. I'm running a little bakery feeding a
large family home made bread, so no option to be fancy. It's simply too
expensive.
This reminds me when I had trouble with my previous bread machine after
one year of use and called the manufacturer. They told me it was covered
by warranty, but when they asked me how much I used it, and I told them
daily, it got very quiet and then the rep said: "It's not designed for
that". I asked what it was "designed for". He said: "To be perfectly
honest it's designed the same way as home exercise equipment is: To be
used a lot for a couple of months, and then never again". I thanked him
for being honest! :)
wrote:
> The connotation that all porpoise is cheaper probably comes from the
> pricing in most of the US, where grocery store AP is $1.59 to 2.49 a bag
> and bread flour is $3 and up. Way up.
> I agree that you dcan make good bread with either flour, but you have to
> be
> aware that there are differences between AP and bread flour, like water
> absorption and ability to withstand multiple rises. They are blended to
> different specifications for protein and ash content, which are the
> principle cause of the differences.
purpose and the more "artisan" flours are enormous. It's like they try to
profit off the snobby occasional home made bread crowd. Those who bake the
perfect loaf once or twice a month. I'm running a little bakery feeding a
large family home made bread, so no option to be fancy. It's simply too
expensive.
This reminds me when I had trouble with my previous bread machine after
one year of use and called the manufacturer. They told me it was covered
by warranty, but when they asked me how much I used it, and I told them
daily, it got very quiet and then the rep said: "It's not designed for
that". I asked what it was "designed for". He said: "To be perfectly
honest it's designed the same way as home exercise equipment is: To be
used a lot for a couple of months, and then never again". I thanked him
for being honest! :)
ceed
Apr 21, 2012, 9:18:55 PM4/21/12
to
On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 19:38:29 -0500, Barry Harmon <john...@optonline.net>
wrote:
>> That sugar may have been the problem all along. Try cutting that out.
>> In conventional bread, it is completely unnecessary.
>> Graham
Did a loaf without the sugar. No difference.
much. The flavor was basically the same also. Salt on the other hand,
makes a lot of difference in flavor.
> Just to show you how authoritative this little book is, here's the
> caption for Crusty Cuban Bread: "This ethnic bread is very simnilar to
> a French or Italian Bread. It tends to be low rising due to the lack of
> oil and small amount of sugar...."
> I don't have enough fingers to count all the mistakes in those two
> sentences.
I do not have enough knowledge to count the fingers even! :)
--
//ceed (indeed)
wrote:
>> That sugar may have been the problem all along. Try cutting that out.
>> In conventional bread, it is completely unnecessary.
>> Graham
>>
>>
>>
> I looked through the only bread machine bread book I have and all the
> white breads take sugar. Which is not surprising, since some people
> think that sugar is necessary for dough to rise. Maybe it's in there to
> help browning. (?)
No idea. I'm going to skip it from now on. Doesn't seem to be doing very
>>
>>
> I looked through the only bread machine bread book I have and all the
> white breads take sugar. Which is not surprising, since some people
> think that sugar is necessary for dough to rise. Maybe it's in there to
> help browning. (?)
much. The flavor was basically the same also. Salt on the other hand,
makes a lot of difference in flavor.
> Just to show you how authoritative this little book is, here's the
> caption for Crusty Cuban Bread: "This ethnic bread is very simnilar to
> a French or Italian Bread. It tends to be low rising due to the lack of
> oil and small amount of sugar...."
> I don't have enough fingers to count all the mistakes in those two
> sentences.
--
//ceed (indeed)
Motzarella
Apr 21, 2012, 9:27:24 PM4/21/12
to
"Janet Bostwick" wrote in message
Another point that I find of most importance in bread baking, would be that
of protein level. Once we have established that some breads are better with
bread flour vs. AP, protein does become of concern. For instance, when I
bake bagels, I really want to shoot for as high a protein level that I can.
Hence, I usually opt for Wheat Montana, with a level between 14 and 15%. As
a result, I seldom use any vital wheat protein, except when baking rye
breads. King Arthur is quite good at identifying the differing types of
bread flour.
Alan
Janet Bostwick
Apr 21, 2012, 9:38:29 PM4/21/12
to
On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:16:32 -0500, ceed <ce...@is.indeed.invalid>
wrote:
snip
You mean that if you were looking at Gold Medal flour there would be a
huge price difference between the GM all purpose and the GM Better for
Bread? Or are you talking about something like King Arthur flour
(which I don't think is worth the money)
Since you bake a lot, have you tried buying bread flour at a
restaurant supply store. The store that is available to me is Cash
and Carry. I can get 50# of high protein flour for $19 something. Or
do you consider that high priced? Prices for groceries vary so much
across the country that I have no idea what is expensive to you.
Janet
wrote:
snip
>
>What puzzles me is that the price difference between your every day all
>purpose and the more "artisan" flours are enormous. It's like they try to
>profit off the snobby occasional home made bread crowd. Those who bake the
>perfect loaf once or twice a month. I'm running a little bakery feeding a
>large family home made bread, so no option to be fancy. It's simply too
>expensive.
snip
>What puzzles me is that the price difference between your every day all
>purpose and the more "artisan" flours are enormous. It's like they try to
>profit off the snobby occasional home made bread crowd. Those who bake the
>perfect loaf once or twice a month. I'm running a little bakery feeding a
>large family home made bread, so no option to be fancy. It's simply too
>expensive.
You mean that if you were looking at Gold Medal flour there would be a
huge price difference between the GM all purpose and the GM Better for
Bread? Or are you talking about something like King Arthur flour
(which I don't think is worth the money)
Since you bake a lot, have you tried buying bread flour at a
restaurant supply store. The store that is available to me is Cash
and Carry. I can get 50# of high protein flour for $19 something. Or
do you consider that high priced? Prices for groceries vary so much
across the country that I have no idea what is expensive to you.
Janet
Barry Harmon
Apr 21, 2012, 11:04:34 PM4/21/12
to
ceed <ce...@is.indeed.invalid> wrote in
news:op.wc469...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com:
A little sugar may help brown a loaf (see Maillard reaction), but too
much sugar in a regular bread may inhibit yeast activity, since the
sugar may tie up water that the yeast needs. There is an on-going
belief that one needs to add a bit of sugar to the yeast and water to
"activate" the yeast before making dough. In fact, the yeast has a tiny
bit of carbohydrate in the drying medium (if that's the correct term)
that gets the yeast started, so you don't need to add sugar to the yeast
for that, either.
French bread (the classic baguette) has nothing but water, flour, salt
and yeast, and trace amounts of a few additives. My recipe for the
Italian boule, from Clayton, "The Breads of France," (Yeah, I know, I
know) has oil and a bit of sugar in it, but it also has quite a dose of
yeast to counteract these, as well as malt, which is also a sugar
source.
Contrary to what the book says, a lack of oil will frequently increase
rising, since the oil coats the flour and may prevent the yeast from
having access to it for food. Breads high in oil and fats tend to have
higher yeast levels than breads without fats and oils.
The French baguette and the classic Italian boule are quite different
breads, so a bread that was like these two would be a very strange loaf.
The baguette is a long slender loaf, light and airy, with a crisp crust,
weiighing somewhere under a pound. It stales quickly and is made to be
eaten soon after it is baked. The Italian boule is a round bread, up to
several pounds. Think of the bread in the bread basket at a mid-level
Italian restaurant. Thick crust, very dark bottom, baked on the sole of
the oven with cornmeal on the bottom. The Italian boule is a thicker,
chewier crust, and lasts for a while, like a couple of days.
Does this help?
Barry
news:op.wc469...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com:
much sugar in a regular bread may inhibit yeast activity, since the
sugar may tie up water that the yeast needs. There is an on-going
belief that one needs to add a bit of sugar to the yeast and water to
"activate" the yeast before making dough. In fact, the yeast has a tiny
bit of carbohydrate in the drying medium (if that's the correct term)
that gets the yeast started, so you don't need to add sugar to the yeast
for that, either.
French bread (the classic baguette) has nothing but water, flour, salt
and yeast, and trace amounts of a few additives. My recipe for the
Italian boule, from Clayton, "The Breads of France," (Yeah, I know, I
know) has oil and a bit of sugar in it, but it also has quite a dose of
yeast to counteract these, as well as malt, which is also a sugar
source.
Contrary to what the book says, a lack of oil will frequently increase
rising, since the oil coats the flour and may prevent the yeast from
having access to it for food. Breads high in oil and fats tend to have
higher yeast levels than breads without fats and oils.
The French baguette and the classic Italian boule are quite different
breads, so a bread that was like these two would be a very strange loaf.
The baguette is a long slender loaf, light and airy, with a crisp crust,
weiighing somewhere under a pound. It stales quickly and is made to be
eaten soon after it is baked. The Italian boule is a round bread, up to
several pounds. Think of the bread in the bread basket at a mid-level
Italian restaurant. Thick crust, very dark bottom, baked on the sole of
the oven with cornmeal on the bottom. The Italian boule is a thicker,
chewier crust, and lasts for a while, like a couple of days.
Does this help?
Barry
ceed
Apr 21, 2012, 11:09:33 PM4/21/12
to
On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:04:34 -0500, Barry Harmon <john...@optonline.net>
Yes, it's the best help I've gotten in a long time! Thanks! :)
>
> Barry
>
> Barry
ceed
Apr 21, 2012, 11:11:48 PM4/21/12
to
On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:38:29 -0500, Janet Bostwick <nos...@cableone.net>
wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:16:32 -0500, ceed <ce...@is.indeed.invalid>
> wrote:
> snip
>>
>> What puzzles me is that the price difference between your every day all
>> purpose and the more "artisan" flours are enormous. It's like they try
>> to
>> profit off the snobby occasional home made bread crowd. Those who bake
>> the
>> perfect loaf once or twice a month. I'm running a little bakery feeding
>> a
>> large family home made bread, so no option to be fancy. It's simply too
>> expensive.
> snip
> You mean that if you were looking at Gold Medal flour there would be a
> huge price difference between the GM all purpose and the GM Better for
> Bread? Or are you talking about something like King Arthur flour
> (which I don't think is worth the money)
Yes, more like King Arthur and Bob's Red Mill.
> Since you bake a lot, have you tried buying bread flour at a
> restaurant supply store. The store that is available to me is Cash
> and Carry. I can get 50# of high protein flour for $19 something. Or
> do you consider that high priced? Prices for groceries vary so much
> across the country that I have no idea what is expensive to you.
> Janet
Got that advice here, so I have ordered a 50LB bag of good bread flour
from a local (Austin, TX) restaurant supply store. Picking it up Monday.
wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 20:16:32 -0500, ceed <ce...@is.indeed.invalid>
> wrote:
> snip
>>
>> What puzzles me is that the price difference between your every day all
>> purpose and the more "artisan" flours are enormous. It's like they try
>> to
>> profit off the snobby occasional home made bread crowd. Those who bake
>> the
>> perfect loaf once or twice a month. I'm running a little bakery feeding
>> a
>> large family home made bread, so no option to be fancy. It's simply too
>> expensive.
> snip
> You mean that if you were looking at Gold Medal flour there would be a
> huge price difference between the GM all purpose and the GM Better for
> Bread? Or are you talking about something like King Arthur flour
> (which I don't think is worth the money)
> Since you bake a lot, have you tried buying bread flour at a
> restaurant supply store. The store that is available to me is Cash
> and Carry. I can get 50# of high protein flour for $19 something. Or
> do you consider that high priced? Prices for groceries vary so much
> across the country that I have no idea what is expensive to you.
> Janet
from a local (Austin, TX) restaurant supply store. Picking it up Monday.
graham
Apr 21, 2012, 11:48:33 PM4/21/12
to
"ceed" <ce...@is.indeed.invalid> wrote in message
news:op.wc39n...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com...
Graham
ceed
Apr 22, 2012, 12:22:17 AM4/22/12
to
On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:48:33 -0500, graham <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> They are better, much better, but still not "domed" I am off to pick up
also one of the reasons I bake myself, I can't get decent bread around
here, only that spongy goo full of chemicals.
--
//ceed (indeed)
>> They are better, much better, but still not "domed" I am off to pick up
>> a 50lb of better flour I ordered Monday. I think that'll take care of
>> it.
>> The sweet spot seems to be 6 g yeast and 705 g flour for a 3lb loaf
>> using
>> 4 dl water 14 g salt and 18 g sugar.
>>
> BTW, I'm glad that you are weighing your ingredients AND in metric{:-)
> Graham
Well, I may live in Texas, but I'm Norwegian, so metric it is! This is
>> it.
>> The sweet spot seems to be 6 g yeast and 705 g flour for a 3lb loaf
>> using
>> 4 dl water 14 g salt and 18 g sugar.
>>
> BTW, I'm glad that you are weighing your ingredients AND in metric{:-)
> Graham
also one of the reasons I bake myself, I can't get decent bread around
here, only that spongy goo full of chemicals.
--
//ceed (indeed)
Bertie Doe
Apr 22, 2012, 5:47:19 AM4/22/12
to
"ceed" wrote in message news:op.wc46u...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com...
> "Barry Harmon" wrote in message
> news:XnsA03B88C7D1B54jo...@209.197.15.254...
> news:XnsA03B88C7D1B54jo...@209.197.15.254...
> /Genetic engineering is, in some cases, akin to what farmers have been
> /doing for years, which is selecting the plants or strains that best suit
> /their needs. Farmers and agricultural researchers do it all the time
> /and call it selective breeding or improving the breed. What the people
> /at the yeast companies probably did was to isolate some yeast cells that
> /worked really fast, a different strain, and then work with those, and
> /maybe further select from that pool. At the end of three or four
> /selections, they could indeed have a superfast yeast, one that would
> /start quickly and expell all sorts of gas really quickly. I don't know
> /what the multiplication time (doubling or generation time) would be, but
> /it seems as if doubling time is incidental to what they are trying to
> /do, which is to create a quick starting, gassy yeast.
> /Barry
> Yep, it would also be interesting to know what brand of yeast ceed is
> using? If it's regular standard dried yeast, used with AP plain flour,
> you may end up with less than perfect loaf shape. Mind you, if the taste
> is great, stick with the cheaper flour and yeast.
>
/I'm using this yeast (Red Star):
> /doing for years, which is selecting the plants or strains that best suit
> /their needs. Farmers and agricultural researchers do it all the time
> /and call it selective breeding or improving the breed. What the people
> /at the yeast companies probably did was to isolate some yeast cells that
> /worked really fast, a different strain, and then work with those, and
> /maybe further select from that pool. At the end of three or four
> /selections, they could indeed have a superfast yeast, one that would
> /start quickly and expell all sorts of gas really quickly. I don't know
> /what the multiplication time (doubling or generation time) would be, but
> /it seems as if doubling time is incidental to what they are trying to
> /do, which is to create a quick starting, gassy yeast.
> /Barry
> Yep, it would also be interesting to know what brand of yeast ceed is
> using? If it's regular standard dried yeast, used with AP plain flour,
> you may end up with less than perfect loaf shape. Mind you, if the taste
> is great, stick with the cheaper flour and yeast.
>
/
/http://is.gd/gRpDiI
/
/I've also used Fleichmann, but this one has been better.
I'm green with envy, here in the Uk the local s/mkt's largest tub is
'Allinson's Dried Active Yeast' at 125g (5 oz). Perhaps if I look online
there maybe larger packs. Red Star not available over here.
Barry, this is one you might answer. Red Star do a bread machine Yeast. I
don't know what's the cost of a couple of 1/4oz sachets are, but would they
give ceed a slightly higher domed loaf? Obviously it won't effect the taste.
I'm also thinking of anyone else who stumbles across this thread and might
want to improve the shape of their loaf. Would it be worth using Bread
machine yeast as a one-off experiment?
http://www.redstaryeast.com/lessons-yeast-baking/yeast-types-usage/bread-machine-yeast
Thanks
Bertie
Hankjam
Apr 22, 2012, 5:59:55 AM4/22/12
to
On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 23:22:17 -0500, ceed <ce...@is.indeed.invalid>
wrote:
Hi
I really would leave the sugar out and see what you think.
There really should be enough "sugars" in the flour to give you what
you need.
Hj
wrote:
I really would leave the sugar out and see what you think.
There really should be enough "sugars" in the flour to give you what
you need.
Hj
Ophelia
Apr 22, 2012, 6:16:04 AM4/22/12
to
"Motzarella" <alz...@frontier.com> wrote in message
news:jmvmfm$r6n$1...@dont-email.me...
noticed the protein was around 10% and it made very acceptable bread.
I suspect our 'plain' flour is the same as your AP?
ein--
http://www.shop.helpforheroes.org.uk/
graham
Apr 22, 2012, 9:12:58 AM4/22/12
to
"Ophelia" <Oph...@Elsinore.me.uk> wrote in message
news:9vi454...@mid.individual.net...
southern states it's a bit lower.
Graham
graham
Apr 22, 2012, 9:19:01 AM4/22/12
to
"ceed" <ce...@is.indeed.invalid> wrote in message
> On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:48:33 -0500, graham <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>> They are better, much better, but still not "domed" I am off to pick up
>>> a 50lb of better flour I ordered Monday. I think that'll take care of
>>> it.
>>> The sweet spot seems to be 6 g yeast and 705 g flour for a 3lb loaf
>>> using
>>> 4 dl water 14 g salt and 18 g sugar.
>>>
>> BTW, I'm glad that you are weighing your ingredients AND in metric{:-)
>> Graham
>
> Well, I may live in Texas,
You have my deepest sympathy! {:-)
>
>>> They are better, much better, but still not "domed" I am off to pick up
>>> a 50lb of better flour I ordered Monday. I think that'll take care of
>>> it.
>>> The sweet spot seems to be 6 g yeast and 705 g flour for a 3lb loaf
>>> using
>>> 4 dl water 14 g salt and 18 g sugar.
>>>
>> BTW, I'm glad that you are weighing your ingredients AND in metric{:-)
>> Graham
>
> Well, I may live in Texas,
>but I'm Norwegian, so metric it is! This is also one of the reasons I bake
>myself, I can't get decent bread around here, only that spongy goo full of
>chemicals.
>
therefore weigh everything and nearly all my baking books are from Europe.
The US ones are by professionals and therefore have weight options in their
recipes.
I can get good bread here as there are both French and Belgian boulangeries
in Calgary. However, I enjoy the challenge and bake when I can.
Graham
Barry Harmon
Apr 22, 2012, 9:31:30 AM4/22/12
to
"Bertie Doe" <monteb...@ntl.com> wrote in
news:9vi2db...@mid.individual.net:
yeast is a special animal (plant? Whatever.) that has to work quickly.
There seem to be several variations in bread machine yeast, but I don't
know if the diffences are real or just inventions of the marketing
departments.
I wish someone sold bread machine or whatever it's called in packages of
one or two pounds, 500 or 1000 grams, since most of the price of yeast
in a grocery store is probably the packaging and the wastage as the
little packages go out of date. If you can get to the manager of the
store, you might be able to take the "out of date" yeast off his hands
for a song.
Since I don't use a bread machine, I buy whatever is the cheapest
regular dried yeast for my bread baking and it works fine. I used to
pay $4 at Costco for 2 pounds (900 grams), but recently it's been $5.
This is the same yeast in the same packaging I saw at Dan Leader's
bakery, Bread Alone, so I know I'm not out on a limb.
Several years ago, I stumbled on 125 gram packages of yeast at Christmas
Tree Shops for 29 cents each, $1.05 a pound! I cleaned them out (40 or
so packages). The yeast was within a month of being "out of date," but
I took it home and put it in the freezer and used it until it ran out,
about six months ago. Never had a problem. I'd love to find that deal
again!
Barry
Ophelia
Apr 22, 2012, 10:29:57 AM4/22/12
to
"graham" <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:vtTkr.11462$kb7....@newsfe20.iad...
> AP in Canada and the northern US is 12% protein. I understand that in
> some southern states it's a bit lower.
Ok. That cheapy Tesco stuff can make bread for pennies! My Bread Flour is
> some southern states it's a bit lower.
13.9.
Your AP is somewhere inbetween
Ophelia
Apr 22, 2012, 10:31:18 AM4/22/12
to
news:mcLkr.52768$T5....@newsfe13.iad...
>> They are better, much better, but still not "domed" :) I am off to pick
>> up a 50lb of better flour I ordered Monday. I think that'll take care of
>> it. The sweet spot seems to be 6 g yeast and 705 g flour for a 3lb loaf
>> using 4 dl water 14 g salt and 18 g sugar.
>>
> BTW, I'm glad that you are weighing your ingredients AND in metric{:-)
Too right <g>
>> up a 50lb of better flour I ordered Monday. I think that'll take care of
>> it. The sweet spot seems to be 6 g yeast and 705 g flour for a 3lb loaf
>> using 4 dl water 14 g salt and 18 g sugar.
>>
> BTW, I'm glad that you are weighing your ingredients AND in metric{:-)
Janet Bostwick
Apr 22, 2012, 10:54:45 AM4/22/12
to
On 22 Apr 2012 13:31:30 GMT, Barry Harmon <john...@optonline.net>
wrote:
>snip
Barry, I don't think that bread machine yeast is any different than
SAF Instant yeast. SAF 's parent owns Red Star and should be
available across Canada, US, and all UK. SAF Instant Yeast is
recommended for bread machines.
We've all been using instant yeast for 10 or more years now. SAF does
come in larger packages -- not as physically large as a big box store
package of Red Star Active Dry Yeast. However, instant yeast is a
much more finely grained yeast and you use less of it than active
dried yeast.
Janet
wrote:
>snip
SAF Instant yeast. SAF 's parent owns Red Star and should be
available across Canada, US, and all UK. SAF Instant Yeast is
recommended for bread machines.
We've all been using instant yeast for 10 or more years now. SAF does
come in larger packages -- not as physically large as a big box store
package of Red Star Active Dry Yeast. However, instant yeast is a
much more finely grained yeast and you use less of it than active
dried yeast.
Janet
cshenk
Apr 22, 2012, 11:03:47 AM4/22/12
to
Ophelia wrote in alt.bread.recipes:
>
> "Bertie Doe" <monteb...@ntl.com> wrote in message
> news:9v9umo...@mid.individual.net...
> >
> >
> > A trip down 'memory lane' here. My intro to home breadmaking, was
> > via a cheap branded machine and had about 5 years of pleasure from
> > it. My first bad experience was similar to yours ceed. I didn't
> > realise that the machines' program is for "Special breadmaking
> > Yeast" mostly sold in sachets. The special yeast is designed
> > (some say, genetically) to rise only ONCE. This speeds up the
> > whole process. Also the special breadmaker yeast does not need to
> > be re-activated. Instead, I used ordinary Active Dried Yeast,
> > which takes about 10 minutes to re-activate. It's also a much
> > slower yeast and most folk use it for hand-thrown loaves and is
> > meant to rise TWICE. The poor old machine didn't know I was using
> > the wrong yeast and went into the 'bake cycle' before the dough
> > was properly risen!!! The problem was, I had a large 125g tub of
> > this yeast. The solution was simple;- use it in the machine, but
> > use the 'dough cycle'. After the dough cycle completes, WAIT till
> > the dough has risen to the top of the pan, then press 'Bake'. The
> > moral is ceed. If you see tubs of ordinary active yeast going cheap
> > on special, ignore it and stick to your usual sachets of
> > 'Breadmaker Yeast'. Bertie
>
> I have to agree!!! I have had several people asking me why they were
> having problems with fast acting yeast. Actually, if you look at
> recipes which give ONE rise, then that is ok, but as I am sure you
> know very well, if you try to do a second rise you are stuffed! I
> don't buy that stuff any more!
>
> I decided only yesterday, that my bread machine is going out. I
> used to use it when I was busy just for the knead but really, it is a
> waste of space and it doesn't take too much watching to just use the
> Kenwood! I haven't made bread for a wee while because we have been
> following a low carb way of eating, but hubby asked for my bread and
> I am now in heaven:))
I finally got some new yeast here. My old stuff had been frozen since
2007 and used to fill a fridge jar but at last, it died. It took me a
bit to find a bulk packet that works.
Fleishmanns instant dry yeast. Got 2 lbs in 1 lb bags. I refuse to
pay the prices of the individual packets at over a dollar each when for
5.99USD I got 2 lbs that will last me for some time.
--
>
> "Bertie Doe" <monteb...@ntl.com> wrote in message
> news:9v9umo...@mid.individual.net...
> >
> >
> > A trip down 'memory lane' here. My intro to home breadmaking, was
> > via a cheap branded machine and had about 5 years of pleasure from
> > it. My first bad experience was similar to yours ceed. I didn't
> > realise that the machines' program is for "Special breadmaking
> > Yeast" mostly sold in sachets. The special yeast is designed
> > (some say, genetically) to rise only ONCE. This speeds up the
> > whole process. Also the special breadmaker yeast does not need to
> > be re-activated. Instead, I used ordinary Active Dried Yeast,
> > which takes about 10 minutes to re-activate. It's also a much
> > slower yeast and most folk use it for hand-thrown loaves and is
> > meant to rise TWICE. The poor old machine didn't know I was using
> > the wrong yeast and went into the 'bake cycle' before the dough
> > was properly risen!!! The problem was, I had a large 125g tub of
> > this yeast. The solution was simple;- use it in the machine, but
> > use the 'dough cycle'. After the dough cycle completes, WAIT till
> > the dough has risen to the top of the pan, then press 'Bake'. The
> > moral is ceed. If you see tubs of ordinary active yeast going cheap
> > on special, ignore it and stick to your usual sachets of
> > 'Breadmaker Yeast'. Bertie
>
> I have to agree!!! I have had several people asking me why they were
> having problems with fast acting yeast. Actually, if you look at
> recipes which give ONE rise, then that is ok, but as I am sure you
> know very well, if you try to do a second rise you are stuffed! I
> don't buy that stuff any more!
>
> I decided only yesterday, that my bread machine is going out. I
> used to use it when I was busy just for the knead but really, it is a
> waste of space and it doesn't take too much watching to just use the
> Kenwood! I haven't made bread for a wee while because we have been
> following a low carb way of eating, but hubby asked for my bread and
> I am now in heaven:))
I finally got some new yeast here. My old stuff had been frozen since
2007 and used to fill a fridge jar but at last, it died. It took me a
bit to find a bulk packet that works.
Fleishmanns instant dry yeast. Got 2 lbs in 1 lb bags. I refuse to
pay the prices of the individual packets at over a dollar each when for
5.99USD I got 2 lbs that will last me for some time.
--
Janet Bostwick
Apr 22, 2012, 11:20:57 AM4/22/12
to
On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 10:03:47 -0500, "cshenk" <csh...@cox.net> wrote:
snip
"Active' dry yeast? Do you still have the packaging? The two
different yeasts are measured differently, and actually may be used
differently.
Janet
snip
>I finally got some new yeast here. My old stuff had been frozen since
>2007 and used to fill a fridge jar but at last, it died. It took me a
>bit to find a bulk packet that works.
>
>Fleishmanns instant dry yeast. Got 2 lbs in 1 lb bags. I refuse to
>pay the prices of the individual packets at over a dollar each when for
>5.99USD I got 2 lbs that will last me for some time.
>
>
Was it really Fleishmanns "Instant" dry yeast? Or was it Fleishmanns
>2007 and used to fill a fridge jar but at last, it died. It took me a
>bit to find a bulk packet that works.
>
>Fleishmanns instant dry yeast. Got 2 lbs in 1 lb bags. I refuse to
>pay the prices of the individual packets at over a dollar each when for
>5.99USD I got 2 lbs that will last me for some time.
>
>
"Active' dry yeast? Do you still have the packaging? The two
different yeasts are measured differently, and actually may be used
differently.
Janet
cshenk
Apr 22, 2012, 11:47:40 AM4/22/12
to
Bertie Doe wrote in alt.bread.recipes:
Sorry I've been offline.
I just posted what i got. It was 5.99/2 lbs. A single packet for a
loaf tends to be close to 1$ now locally. The 4 oz jar tends to 5.99.
Wat i need to get is more dried milk as i rarely have fresh on hand and
dried mixed with water works fine for breadmachines. I am also out of
rye flour just now.
--
I just posted what i got. It was 5.99/2 lbs. A single packet for a
loaf tends to be close to 1$ now locally. The 4 oz jar tends to 5.99.
Wat i need to get is more dried milk as i rarely have fresh on hand and
dried mixed with water works fine for breadmachines. I am also out of
rye flour just now.
--
cshenk
Apr 22, 2012, 11:51:14 AM4/22/12
to
Barry Harmon wrote in alt.bread.recipes:
Hi Barry,
Bread machines require a special yeast for best effect because they
have a static rise time so use a 'fast acting' sort. The problem is
the names vary wildly for it. 'Instant Dry' is a common name for it
but not the only one.
--
Bread machines require a special yeast for best effect because they
have a static rise time so use a 'fast acting' sort. The problem is
the names vary wildly for it. 'Instant Dry' is a common name for it
but not the only one.
--
cshenk
Apr 22, 2012, 12:25:36 PM4/22/12
to
Janet Bostwick wrote in alt.bread.recipes:
That is what the package says but the name may be shifted as it's a
Canadian product packaged in the USA.
I can tell from the look that it's the finer granule for a breadmachine
optimal.
I have a loaf going now, a simple white to test it out. Seems to be
rising well. It's finished first rise and is in second. (there is
some accidental mis information that machines have only 1 rise. This
is machine dependant and generally only seen in either very cheap
machines or on the 'rapid bake' options).
--
Canadian product packaged in the USA.
I can tell from the look that it's the finer granule for a breadmachine
optimal.
I have a loaf going now, a simple white to test it out. Seems to be
rising well. It's finished first rise and is in second. (there is
some accidental mis information that machines have only 1 rise. This
is machine dependant and generally only seen in either very cheap
machines or on the 'rapid bake' options).
--
ceed
Apr 22, 2012, 12:50:26 PM4/22/12
to
On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 08:19:01 -0500, graham <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> "ceed" <ce...@is.indeed.invalid> wrote in message
> news:op.wc5fr...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com...
>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:48:33 -0500, graham <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>> They are better, much better, but still not "domed" I am off to pick
>>>> up
>>>> a 50lb of better flour I ordered Monday. I think that'll take care of
>>>> it.
>>>> The sweet spot seems to be 6 g yeast and 705 g flour for a 3lb loaf
>>>> using
>>>> 4 dl water 14 g salt and 18 g sugar.
>>>>
>>> BTW, I'm glad that you are weighing your ingredients AND in metric{:-)
>>> Graham
>>
>> Well, I may live in Texas,
>
> You have my deepest sympathy! {:-)
I like Texas and Texans a lot, especially Austin where I live. And then
>
> "ceed" <ce...@is.indeed.invalid> wrote in message
> news:op.wc5fr...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com...
>> On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:48:33 -0500, graham <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>> They are better, much better, but still not "domed" I am off to pick
>>>> up
>>>> a 50lb of better flour I ordered Monday. I think that'll take care of
>>>> it.
>>>> The sweet spot seems to be 6 g yeast and 705 g flour for a 3lb loaf
>>>> using
>>>> 4 dl water 14 g salt and 18 g sugar.
>>>>
>>> BTW, I'm glad that you are weighing your ingredients AND in metric{:-)
>>> Graham
>>
>> Well, I may live in Texas,
>
> You have my deepest sympathy! {:-)
there's the barbecue and Tex-Mex! Can't get food like that anywhere else!
:)
>
>> but I'm Norwegian, so metric it is! This is also one of the reasons I
>> bake
>> myself, I can't get decent bread around here, only that spongy goo
>> full of
>> chemicals.
>>
> I'm originally from England but have lived in Canada for over 35 years.
> I
> therefore weigh everything and nearly all my baking books are from
> Europe.
> The US ones are by professionals and therefore have weight options in
> their
> recipes.
> I can get good bread here as there are both French and Belgian
> boulangeries
> in Calgary. However, I enjoy the challenge and bake when I can.
> Graham
>
>
Metric and centigrades is pure logic. Much easier to remember recipes.
>> but I'm Norwegian, so metric it is! This is also one of the reasons I
>> bake
>> myself, I can't get decent bread around here, only that spongy goo
>> full of
>> chemicals.
>>
> I'm originally from England but have lived in Canada for over 35 years.
> I
> therefore weigh everything and nearly all my baking books are from
> Europe.
> The US ones are by professionals and therefore have weight options in
> their
> recipes.
> I can get good bread here as there are both French and Belgian
> boulangeries
> in Calgary. However, I enjoy the challenge and bake when I can.
> Graham
>
>
Even people here are not ablet to tell me how many tables spoons in a 1/4
cup or at what temperature water boils.
Janet Bostwick
Apr 22, 2012, 1:34:52 PM4/22/12
to
Fleischmanns 'instant' dry yeast. Only bread machine yeast and in
much smaller packaging that you have. Red Star/Lesaffre are the ones
that put out instant yeast. That price is incredible for that amount
of instant yeast. Those are huge packages for instant yeast. Are you
shopping military commissary? Maybe you are tapping into a commercial
product.
Janet
ceed
Apr 22, 2012, 2:42:11 PM4/22/12
to
Gerardus
Apr 22, 2012, 3:33:07 PM4/22/12
to
In article <9vam97...@mid.individual.net>, Oph...@Elsinore.me.uk says...
So, ONE raise is a mix of Sodium bicarbonate and active yeast is lyophilised
yeast ?
Or not !?
Gerardus only using the second one
yeast ?
Or not !?
Gerardus only using the second one
Gerardus
Apr 22, 2012, 3:45:31 PM4/22/12
to
In article <op.wc6jk...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com>, ce...@is.indeed.invalid
says...
In 1 raise mode, instant yeast is needed : is that sodium bicarbonate ?
In 2 or 3 raise mode, active yeast is needed : is that lyophilised yeast ?
Gerardus doubting since long
says...
> On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 11:25:36 -0500, cshenk <csh...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Janet Bostwick wrote in alt.bread.recipes:
> >
> >> On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 10:03:47 -0500, "cshenk" <csh...@cox.net> wrote:
> >>
...
>
> > Janet Bostwick wrote in alt.bread.recipes:
> >
> >> On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 10:03:47 -0500, "cshenk" <csh...@cox.net> wrote:
> >>
> > That is what the package says but the name may be shifted as it's a
> > Canadian product packaged in the USA.
> >
> > I can tell from the look that it's the finer granule for a breadmachine
> > optimal.
> >
> > I have a loaf going now, a simple white to test it out. Seems to be
> > rising well. It's finished first rise and is in second. (there is
> > some accidental mis information that machines have only 1 rise. This
> > is machine dependant and generally only seen in either very cheap
> > machines or on the 'rapid bake' options).
> >
> >
> My machine has two rise cycles except for the rapid bake program.
>
>
>
My machine give 1, 2 or 3 raises...
> > Canadian product packaged in the USA.
> >
> > I can tell from the look that it's the finer granule for a breadmachine
> > optimal.
> >
> > I have a loaf going now, a simple white to test it out. Seems to be
> > rising well. It's finished first rise and is in second. (there is
> > some accidental mis information that machines have only 1 rise. This
> > is machine dependant and generally only seen in either very cheap
> > machines or on the 'rapid bake' options).
> >
> >
> My machine has two rise cycles except for the rapid bake program.
>
>
>
In 1 raise mode, instant yeast is needed : is that sodium bicarbonate ?
In 2 or 3 raise mode, active yeast is needed : is that lyophilised yeast ?
Gerardus doubting since long
graham
Apr 22, 2012, 5:38:46 PM4/22/12
to
"Janet Bostwick" <nos...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:0nf8p7hmmd6477579...@4ax.com...
about the same as csh. It's readily available in the supermarkets on this
side of the 49th.
I've been using it for many years for yeasted breads (I don't have a bread
machine). I wish I could buy the osmotolerant variety as easily for xmas
baking.
Graham
In Calgary
Barry Harmon
Apr 22, 2012, 7:29:31 PM4/22/12
to
"Ophelia" <oph...@elsinore.me.uk> wrote in
news:9vij0n...@mid.individual.net:
That 12% number for AP sounds a bit high. GM posts theirs at 11%; I'd
be surprised if any large miller were much different, although I'd swaer
that Hecker's is almost in the bread flour range.
Http://www.gmiflour.com
As for bread flour being 13.9%, that's too high for all but some very
special uses, such as Bagels. Most books, and Calvel in particular,
eschew things like All Trump as too powerful for artisan baking. Make
sure you aren't getting flour that's measured using the French method.
lol. (Comparisons with French flours are tricky because of the
different measurement methods employed.)
Calvel is on record that 12.5% is the maximum protein desireable for
hearth breads, which is what we mostly bake. I've felt for some time
that we use high protein flour to compensate for a lack of technique and
finesse in our baking. As Janet has said on several occasons, she
started baking with all purpose and got good results.
Calvel's protein ranges
Cake 7-8.5
Pastry 8.5-9.5
Hotel and Restaurant All Purpose 10-11.5 (interesting that he gives
this category the name of the General Mills flour)
Bread 11.5-12.2
Premium High Gluten 13.8-14.2
Medium High Gluten 13.3-13.7
Strong Spring Patent 13-13.3
First Clear 14 plus
Whole Wheat 14 plus
General Mills produces Harvest King at 12% and All Trumps at 14.2%.
I've worked with both pretty extensively, and I agree with the books --
AT is too much flour, too tricky to handle, for everyday use.
One of the things I like about General Mills, and that I wish the other
companies would adopt, is that GM produces a Product Data Sheet for each
flour they produce. None of the others do this, to my knowledge, so we
are left with marketing claims and vague assertions of what's actually
in the flour.
This is not a plug for GM (maybe it is), but I get tired of reading all
sorts of claims and misundertandings, some of which are based on the
calculation of protein level calculated from the protein statement on
the side of the flour bag
Chapter 1, Flour, of Calvel's "Taste of Bread" is worth the trouble of
finding the book.
Barry
news:9vij0n...@mid.individual.net:
be surprised if any large miller were much different, although I'd swaer
that Hecker's is almost in the bread flour range.
Http://www.gmiflour.com
As for bread flour being 13.9%, that's too high for all but some very
special uses, such as Bagels. Most books, and Calvel in particular,
eschew things like All Trump as too powerful for artisan baking. Make
sure you aren't getting flour that's measured using the French method.
lol. (Comparisons with French flours are tricky because of the
different measurement methods employed.)
Calvel is on record that 12.5% is the maximum protein desireable for
hearth breads, which is what we mostly bake. I've felt for some time
that we use high protein flour to compensate for a lack of technique and
finesse in our baking. As Janet has said on several occasons, she
started baking with all purpose and got good results.
Calvel's protein ranges
Cake 7-8.5
Pastry 8.5-9.5
Hotel and Restaurant All Purpose 10-11.5 (interesting that he gives
this category the name of the General Mills flour)
Bread 11.5-12.2
Premium High Gluten 13.8-14.2
Medium High Gluten 13.3-13.7
Strong Spring Patent 13-13.3
First Clear 14 plus
Whole Wheat 14 plus
General Mills produces Harvest King at 12% and All Trumps at 14.2%.
I've worked with both pretty extensively, and I agree with the books --
AT is too much flour, too tricky to handle, for everyday use.
One of the things I like about General Mills, and that I wish the other
companies would adopt, is that GM produces a Product Data Sheet for each
flour they produce. None of the others do this, to my knowledge, so we
are left with marketing claims and vague assertions of what's actually
in the flour.
This is not a plug for GM (maybe it is), but I get tired of reading all
sorts of claims and misundertandings, some of which are based on the
calculation of protein level calculated from the protein statement on
the side of the flour bag
Chapter 1, Flour, of Calvel's "Taste of Bread" is worth the trouble of
finding the book.
Barry
ceed
Apr 22, 2012, 7:31:58 PM4/22/12
to
On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 12:34:52 -0500, Janet Bostwick <nos...@cableone.net>
wrote:
>> I have a loaf going now, a simple white to test it out. Seems to be
>> rising well. It's finished first rise and is in second. (there is
>> some accidental mis information that machines have only 1 rise. This
>> is machine dependant and generally only seen in either very cheap
>> machines or on the 'rapid bake' options).
> beats me, what you have. Even going to the Canadian site, I find no
> Fleischmanns 'instant' dry yeast. Only bread machine yeast and in
> much smaller packaging that you have. Red Star/Lesaffre are the ones
> that put out instant yeast. That price is incredible for that amount
> of instant yeast. Those are huge packages for instant yeast. Are you
> shopping military commissary? Maybe you are tapping into a commercial
> product.
> Janet
This yeast thing is really confusing. I've looked int manual for the
previous and current bread machines. The first talks about "bread machine
yeast" while the second simply says "dry yeast" while the recipes says
"rapid bread machine yeast", "rapid yeast" and "dry yeast". I've used the
2 lb Red Star for years and it has worked well.
--
//ceed (indeed)
wrote:
>> I have a loaf going now, a simple white to test it out. Seems to be
>> rising well. It's finished first rise and is in second. (there is
>> some accidental mis information that machines have only 1 rise. This
>> is machine dependant and generally only seen in either very cheap
>> machines or on the 'rapid bake' options).
> beats me, what you have. Even going to the Canadian site, I find no
> Fleischmanns 'instant' dry yeast. Only bread machine yeast and in
> much smaller packaging that you have. Red Star/Lesaffre are the ones
> that put out instant yeast. That price is incredible for that amount
> of instant yeast. Those are huge packages for instant yeast. Are you
> shopping military commissary? Maybe you are tapping into a commercial
> product.
> Janet
previous and current bread machines. The first talks about "bread machine
yeast" while the second simply says "dry yeast" while the recipes says
"rapid bread machine yeast", "rapid yeast" and "dry yeast". I've used the
2 lb Red Star for years and it has worked well.
--
//ceed (indeed)
Barry Harmon
Apr 22, 2012, 7:34:18 PM4/22/12
to
ceed <ce...@is.indeed.invalid> wrote in
news:op.wc6ee...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com:
4 T in a 1/4 cup (US measure, not Imperial -- which proves your point.)
and water boils at 212F at sea level.
How many farthings in a gill?
news:op.wc6ee...@hit-nxdomain.opendns.com:
and water boils at 212F at sea level.
How many farthings in a gill?
Barry Harmon
Apr 22, 2012, 7:37:22 PM4/22/12
to
"graham" <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:mcLkr.52768$T5....@newsfe13.iad:
That's all well and good, but the next thing needed is a conversion
sheet, since a lot of the older books are in cups and ounces and spoons,
and Elizabeth David used soup spoons, tea cups and the like.
news:mcLkr.52768$T5....@newsfe13.iad:
sheet, since a lot of the older books are in cups and ounces and spoons,
and Elizabeth David used soup spoons, tea cups and the like.
Motzarella
Apr 22, 2012, 9:45:10 PM4/22/12
to
"Ophelia" wrote in message news:9vi454...@mid.individual.net...
best strong (bread) flour they have comes from Canada. A higher protein
level.
Alan
graham
Apr 22, 2012, 9:47:21 PM4/22/12
to
"Barry Harmon" <john...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:XnsA03DC647A2A71jo...@209.197.15.254...
the protein values as decimals but appear to have now rounded them off. As
a result, their AP is quoted at 13.3% (4/30) and the C&P as 10% (3/30). I
know that until recently the AP was 12%, i.e., when it was given as 3.6/30.
Their "Best For Bread" also has a protein content of 13.3%.
I can't find their professional products as yet. Those should quote more
accurate figures.
Graham
graham
Apr 22, 2012, 9:55:45 PM4/22/12
to
news:Jw2lr.61868$R85....@newsfe17.iad...
I posted the following to another forum a few years ago:
"Robin Hood Cake and Pastry: 10%
" " All Purpose: 12%
" " Best For Bread 13% (sold for use in bread
machines, white & WW)
Rogers' flours have the same values.
The commercial flour that I normally use for bread is:
Sunspun Bakers' flour (20kg bags) ~14.5% (according to the mill)"
Graham
"Robin Hood Cake and Pastry: 10%
" " All Purpose: 12%
" " Best For Bread 13% (sold for use in bread
machines, white & WW)
Rogers' flours have the same values.
The commercial flour that I normally use for bread is:
Sunspun Bakers' flour (20kg bags) ~14.5% (according to the mill)"
Graham
Barry Harmon
Apr 23, 2012, 12:29:31 AM4/23/12
to
"graham" <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote in
news:BE2lr.11625$M37....@newsfe01.iad:
Those numbers are astounding! I don't know what to say.
Barry
news:BE2lr.11625$M37....@newsfe01.iad:
Barry
cshenk
Apr 23, 2012, 4:25:37 PM4/23/12
to
'price savers club' type place called BJ's. SAMS, COSTCO etc would be
similar. Packaging tends to be for commercial sizes or at the minimum
large families. I have no doubt this would be the same a commercial
establishment would get.
Expiration date is March 2014 and I know for a fact it will last at
least 4 years past that.
2 lb loaf rose perfectly. Yup, my yeast was too old so I tossed the
rest of the last batch (about 5 oz so was due to get more soon anyways).
Carol
--
cshenk
Apr 23, 2012, 4:27:38 PM4/23/12
to
graham wrote in alt.bread.recipes:
BTW, forgot to mention mine is packaged in 2 bags of 1 lb each then
sorta cryovac'd together with plastic.
--
sorta cryovac'd together with plastic.
--
cshenk
Apr 23, 2012, 4:31:28 PM4/23/12
to
ceed wrote in alt.bread.recipes:
It's ok ceed, you have the right stuff. The problem is the sales folks
all have their own name for it and it's not the same across countries
either.
--
all have their own name for it and it's not the same across countries
either.
--
cshenk
Apr 23, 2012, 4:34:50 PM4/23/12
to
ceed wrote in alt.bread.recipes:
I think i figured it out maybe? I think where that 'they only have one
rise' comes from someone doing dough only mode. That one tends to
assume the 2nd rise will be external to the machine (and really cheap
machines don't even have a rise at all in dough only mode whereas
better ones, it's an option you select and can program how long per
rise).
--
rise' comes from someone doing dough only mode. That one tends to
assume the 2nd rise will be external to the machine (and really cheap
machines don't even have a rise at all in dough only mode whereas
better ones, it's an option you select and can program how long per
rise).
--
Janet Bostwick
Apr 23, 2012, 4:36:49 PM4/23/12
to
package size you indicate at economy prices. Costco, Sams, sell
'active' dry yeast in the manner you indicate. I don't think our
friends over the border need to have a special name for instant yeast
or vice versa. There are plenty of names in use for speedy yeast as
is. That is why I asked if you were sure if you had active dry yeast
or instant yeast. I have seen in this newsgroup much indication that
members only distinguish between 'fresh' or wet block yeast and dry
yeast. They don't get the difference between instant and active.
Janet
cshenk
Apr 23, 2012, 4:44:55 PM4/23/12
to
Gerardus wrote in alt.bread.recipes:
Hi, my TR Breadman can be programmed for as many rise cycles as I want.
Instant yeast is just a formulation of yeast and the name for it where
you are could be very different. Even 'active yeast' can be confusing
as you are in another country and we arent' really sure if the name of
what you use is the same. We can only tell you certain that the names
vary and when you start translating to other languages, all rules are
out on if they used standard ones.
It's like an asian thing called 'fish sauce'. It can be meant to go on
fish (often soy based) or can be 'made from fish' (patis etc). I'm
sure you've run into that one! (snicker).
Here's a key. If it gives directions to proof in warm water, it's not
made for a breadmachine but may work when that is done and used as the
water for the loaf (or part of it).
--
Instant yeast is just a formulation of yeast and the name for it where
you are could be very different. Even 'active yeast' can be confusing
as you are in another country and we arent' really sure if the name of
what you use is the same. We can only tell you certain that the names
vary and when you start translating to other languages, all rules are
out on if they used standard ones.
It's like an asian thing called 'fish sauce'. It can be meant to go on
fish (often soy based) or can be 'made from fish' (patis etc). I'm
sure you've run into that one! (snicker).
Here's a key. If it gives directions to proof in warm water, it's not
made for a breadmachine but may work when that is done and used as the
water for the loaf (or part of it).
--
cshenk
Apr 23, 2012, 4:47:41 PM4/23/12
to
Barry Harmon wrote in alt.bread.recipes:
> How many farthings in a gill?
Depends on how big the fish is as to how many you can stuff in there!
Comeon! Give me a hard one!
(snickers as she runs away)
--
cshenk
Apr 23, 2012, 4:49:20 PM4/23/12
to
Gerardus wrote in alt.bread.recipes:
>
>
> So, ONE raise is a mix of Sodium bicarbonate and active yeast is
> lyophilised yeast ?
>
> Or not !?
Sorry, forgot to answer this. No, while soda breads can be done in a
breadmachine (not optimal) the 'one rise' uses the same breadmachine
yeast.
--
>
>
> So, ONE raise is a mix of Sodium bicarbonate and active yeast is
> lyophilised yeast ?
>
> Or not !?
breadmachine (not optimal) the 'one rise' uses the same breadmachine
yeast.
--
Gerardus
Apr 23, 2012, 5:40:51 PM4/23/12
to
In article <HsOdnT0W8bvNXQjS...@giganews.com>, csh...@cox.net
says...
White bread and French bread call for Dry yeast
Rapid bread and brioche call for Active dry yeast
Gerardus still wondering
says...
Rapid bread and brioche call for Active dry yeast
Gerardus still wondering
Janet Bostwick
Apr 23, 2012, 5:44:56 PM4/23/12
to
On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 15:31:28 -0500, "cshenk" <csh...@cox.net> wrote:
>ceed wrote in alt.bread.recipes:
>
snip
Bread machine yeast, rapid bread machine yeast, rapid yeast are almost
certainly all the same thing and also called instant yeast. Dry yeast
is what is known as active dry yeast and it is not a rapid rise
product. Active dry yeast should be proofed. Please see this
reference from the yeast company. Measurements of yeast will be
different between an active dry product and an instant product. Less
instant is required.
http://www.breadworld.com/products.aspx
Janet
>ceed wrote in alt.bread.recipes:
>
snip
>>
>> This yeast thing is really confusing. I've looked int manual for the
>> previous and current bread machines. The first talks about "bread
>> machine yeast" while the second simply says "dry yeast" while the
>> recipes says "rapid bread machine yeast", "rapid yeast" and "dry
>> yeast". I've used the 2 lb Red Star for years and it has worked well.
>
>It's ok ceed, you have the right stuff. The problem is the sales folks
>all have their own name for it and it's not the same across countries
>either.
Incorrect information. I don't care what country you are referencing.
>> This yeast thing is really confusing. I've looked int manual for the
>> previous and current bread machines. The first talks about "bread
>> machine yeast" while the second simply says "dry yeast" while the
>> recipes says "rapid bread machine yeast", "rapid yeast" and "dry
>> yeast". I've used the 2 lb Red Star for years and it has worked well.
>
>It's ok ceed, you have the right stuff. The problem is the sales folks
>all have their own name for it and it's not the same across countries
>either.
Bread machine yeast, rapid bread machine yeast, rapid yeast are almost
certainly all the same thing and also called instant yeast. Dry yeast
is what is known as active dry yeast and it is not a rapid rise
product. Active dry yeast should be proofed. Please see this
reference from the yeast company. Measurements of yeast will be
different between an active dry product and an instant product. Less
instant is required.
http://www.breadworld.com/products.aspx
Janet
Janet Bostwick
Apr 23, 2012, 5:46:41 PM4/23/12
to
Cake yeast, active dry yeast, instant yeast or sourdough.
Janet
Gerardus
Apr 23, 2012, 5:59:51 PM4/23/12
to
In article <tbjbp7lbgst8rh4uj...@4ax.com>, nos...@cableone.net
says...
I'm afraid not...
Yeast is able to restart, soda powder not.
So if you play with the dough when the whole CO2 has gone,
it will stay flat with soda powder and raise again with real yeast.
Or am I wrong ?
Gerardus
says...
Yeast is able to restart, soda powder not.
So if you play with the dough when the whole CO2 has gone,
it will stay flat with soda powder and raise again with real yeast.
Or am I wrong ?
Gerardus
Janet Bostwick
Apr 23, 2012, 6:07:45 PM4/23/12
to
On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 23:59:51 +0200, Gerardus <nos...@allow.ed> wrote:
>In article <tbjbp7lbgst8rh4uj...@4ax.com>, nos...@cableone.net
>says...
>> On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 23:40:51 +0200, Gerardus <nos...@allow.ed> wrote:
>>
snip
>In article <tbjbp7lbgst8rh4uj...@4ax.com>, nos...@cableone.net
>says...
>> On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 23:40:51 +0200, Gerardus <nos...@allow.ed> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >White bread and French bread call for Dry yeast
>> >Rapid bread and brioche call for Active dry yeast
>> >
>> >
>> >Gerardus still wondering
>> You can make any of the bread types with any yeast product.
>> Cake yeast, active dry yeast, instant yeast or sourdough.
>> Janet
>>
>
>I'm afraid not...
>
>Yeast is able to restart, soda powder not.
>So if you play with the dough when the whole CO2 has gone,
>it will stay flat with soda powder and raise again with real yeast.
>
>Or am I wrong ?
>
>
>Gerardus
Where did you reference soda powder in the above
>> >
>> >White bread and French bread call for Dry yeast
>> >Rapid bread and brioche call for Active dry yeast
>> >
>> >
>> >Gerardus still wondering
>> You can make any of the bread types with any yeast product.
>> Cake yeast, active dry yeast, instant yeast or sourdough.
>> Janet
>>
>
>I'm afraid not...
>
>Yeast is able to restart, soda powder not.
>So if you play with the dough when the whole CO2 has gone,
>it will stay flat with soda powder and raise again with real yeast.
>
>Or am I wrong ?
>
>
>Gerardus
"White bread and French bread call for Dry yeast
Rapid bread and brioche call for Active dry yeast"?
My reply has to do with yeasted breads and was clarifying that any
yeast product may be used to produce those breads.
Soda powder and baking powder are used for quick breads, i.e., banana
bread, soda bread, biscuits(American style). With these breads, no
attempt is made to develop any gluten, in fact, gluten development is
to be avoided because it will make the finished product tough.
Do you understand which type of product you are thinking of?
Janet
Gerardus
Apr 23, 2012, 6:33:05 PM4/23/12
to
In article <u9kbp7hn66f8deeik...@4ax.com>, nos...@cableone.net
No !
Here, we have normal yeast in blocks and dry yeast in powder...
I was not able to locate "Active dry yeast" and, as my bread machine
requires it for rapid bread, I thought it was a name for a mix
of gluten, natrium pyrophosphate and natrium bicarbonate
also called here "chemical yeast".
Gerardus
Here, we have normal yeast in blocks and dry yeast in powder...
I was not able to locate "Active dry yeast" and, as my bread machine
requires it for rapid bread, I thought it was a name for a mix
of gluten, natrium pyrophosphate and natrium bicarbonate
also called here "chemical yeast".
Gerardus
Janet Bostwick
Apr 23, 2012, 7:13:24 PM4/23/12
to
be what you want for your bread machine. If you would give me a brand
name for this product that contains gluten, natrium pyrophosphate and
natrium bicarbonate -- chemical yeast, I could look it up on the
Internet. However, I think the clue is in the word "chemical" meaning
a product that can make a batter get air bubbles. Can you give me
some examples of where you have seen it used? I would think these
kinds of bready products are not kneaded but stirred into a batter.
I believe that this
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Baking_powder
is your "chemical yeast"
It is used to make cakes and cookies and the like.
It may be used with baking soda (see below) when an acid is present
http://busycooks.about.com/library/glossary/bldefbakingsoda.htm
Janet
Barry Harmon
Apr 23, 2012, 8:13:11 PM4/23/12
to
"cshenk" <csh...@cox.net> wrote in
news:74OdnXolcZVwIgjS...@giganews.com:
Okay.
Figure this one out.
YCDBMHATH
news:74OdnXolcZVwIgjS...@giganews.com:
Figure this one out.
YCDBMHATH
Motzarella
Apr 23, 2012, 10:50:02 PM4/23/12
to
"graham" wrote in message news:vtTkr.11462$kb7....@newsfe20.iad...
"Ophelia" <Oph...@Elsinore.me.uk> wrote in message
AP in Canada and the northern US is 12% protein. I understand that in some
southern states it's a bit lower.
Graham
southern states it's a bit lower.
Wheat Montana, from guess where, is what I use for bread flour. It is 14%.
Also that level is available from KA as well.
Alan
Ophelia
Apr 24, 2012, 11:00:11 AM4/24/12
to
news:fqibp75ek0g88mdlu...@4ax.com...
As you have written, Janet is how it is here (UK)
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