French recipe translation..

[Gordon Henderson]

I'm looking at an old Brioche recipe - in French and at one point it
just says:

pâte bâtard

This is in-between the mix at slow speed, then the above, then mix at
speed 2.

A literal translation just tells me batard dough - which might be an
instruction to shape it, but at this point in the recipe, it's just
going from speed 1 to speed 2 in the mixer...

So I'm wondering if anyone has seen this before and if it actually means
anything. The dough seems to work without me doing anything special at
that point, other than upping the speed...

Cheers,

-Gordon

[Barry Harmon]

On Wed Feb 25 07:53:50 2015 Gordon Henderson wrote:
> I'm looking at an old Brioche recipe - in French and at one point it
> just says:
>

> pâte bâtard

>
> This is in-between the mix at slow speed, then the above, then mix at
> speed 2.
>
> A literal translation just tells me batard dough - which might be an
> instruction to shape it, but at this point in the recipe, it's just
> going from speed 1 to speed 2 in the mixer...
>
> So I'm wondering if anyone has seen this before and if it actually means
> anything. The dough seems to work without me doing anything special at
> that point, other than upping the speed...
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Gordon

Here's a link I found that mentions pate batard, which is what I think you wrote.

Pate batard, which is what I think you wrote, seems to be the water and yeast mixed together and allowed to work for 20 mninutes.

So, possibly the recipe means to prepare the yeast/water mix. At the same time, mix together the rest of the ingredients. When the pate batard has started working, after the mentioned 20 minutes, add it to the main portion of the ingredients and increase the mixer speed.

Does this make sense?

Barry

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[Boron Elgar]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 17:12:23 GMT, Barry Harmon
<john...@optonline.net> wrote:

>On Wed Feb 25 07:53:50 2015 Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> I'm looking at an old Brioche recipe - in French and at one point it
>> just says:
>>

>> pâte bâtard

>>
>> This is in-between the mix at slow speed, then the above, then mix at
>> speed 2.
>>
>> A literal translation just tells me batard dough - which might be an
>> instruction to shape it, but at this point in the recipe, it's just
>> going from speed 1 to speed 2 in the mixer...
>>
>> So I'm wondering if anyone has seen this before and if it actually means
>> anything. The dough seems to work without me doing anything special at
>> that point, other than upping the speed...
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -Gordon
>
>Here's a link I found that mentions pate batard, which is what I think you wrote.
>
>Pate batard, which is what I think you wrote, seems to be the water and yeast mixed together and allowed to work for 20 mninutes.
>
>So, possibly the recipe means to prepare the yeast/water mix. At the same time, mix together the rest of the ingredients. When the pate batard has started working, after the mentioned 20 minutes, add it to the main portion of the ingredients and increase the mixer speed.
>
>Does this make sense?
>
>Barry
>

Sounds like autolyze.

[Gordon Henderson]

In article <XnnHw.461852$dw5.4...@fx25.iad>,

Barry Harmon <john...@optonline.net> wrote:
>On Wed Feb 25 07:53:50 2015 Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> I'm looking at an old Brioche recipe - in French and at one point it
>> just says:
>>

>> p=C3=83=C2=A2te b=C3=83=C2=A2tard

>>
>> This is in-between the mix at slow speed, then the above, then mix at
>> speed 2.
>>
>> A literal translation just tells me batard dough - which might be an
>> instruction to shape it, but at this point in the recipe, it's just
>> going from speed 1 to speed 2 in the mixer...
>>
>> So I'm wondering if anyone has seen this before and if it actually means
>> anything. The dough seems to work without me doing anything special at
>> that point, other than upping the speed...
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -Gordon
>

>Here's a link I found that mentions pate batard, which is what I think you =
>wrote.

Yes - Pate Batard without the hats. UTF charactersets and all that.

>Pate batard, which is what I think you wrote, seems to be the water and yea=

>st mixed together and allowed to work for 20 mninutes.
>

>So, possibly the recipe means to prepare the yeast/water mix. At the same =
>time, mix together the rest of the ingredients. When the pate batard has s=
>tarted working, after the mentioned 20 minutes, add it to the main portion =

>of the ingredients and increase the mixer speed.
>
>Does this make sense?

Yes, thanks.

So basically autolyze - but with everything apart from the final butter
added. The recipe says

1. Use eggs from the fridge
2. Knead all ingredients except butter
3. Pate Batard
4. Knead 5 minuutes at 2nd speed.
5. Slowly add softened butter

and so on..

Will give this a go next time.

Cheers,

Gordon

[graham]

On 25/02/2015 12:53 AM, Gordon Henderson wrote:
> I'm looking at an old Brioche recipe - in French and at one point it
> just says:
>

> pâte bâtard

>
> This is in-between the mix at slow speed, then the above, then mix at
> speed 2.
>
> A literal translation just tells me batard dough - which might be an
> instruction to shape it, but at this point in the recipe, it's just
> going from speed 1 to speed 2 in the mixer...
>
> So I'm wondering if anyone has seen this before and if it actually means
> anything. The dough seems to work without me doing anything special at
> that point, other than upping the speed...
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Gordon
>

I think it might be a reference to a basic dough or pastry before the
fat is added. For example, the paste before you add the butter to make
mille feuille or viennoiserie.
It's incomplete and therefore the second word is used in its "social"
meaning but as an ajective as opposed to a bread type as a noun.
Graham

[Gordon Henderson]

In article <VisHw.1430883$wG7.6...@fx11.iad>,

graham <gst...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>On 25/02/2015 12:53 AM, Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> I'm looking at an old Brioche recipe - in French and at one point it
>> just says:
>>

>> pâte bâtard

>>
>> This is in-between the mix at slow speed, then the above, then mix at
>> speed 2.
>>
>> A literal translation just tells me batard dough - which might be an
>> instruction to shape it, but at this point in the recipe, it's just
>> going from speed 1 to speed 2 in the mixer...
>>
>> So I'm wondering if anyone has seen this before and if it actually means
>> anything. The dough seems to work without me doing anything special at
>> that point, other than upping the speed...
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -Gordon
>>
>I think it might be a reference to a basic dough or pastry before the
>fat is added. For example, the paste before you add the butter to make
>mille feuille or viennoiserie.
>It's incomplete and therefore the second word is used in its "social"
>meaning but as an ajective as opposed to a bread type as a noun.

Hm. I've found the same thing now in a recipe for Panettone - at the
same point - knead once, "pâte bâtard", knead again at 2nd speed then
add the butter...

So a delay (autolyze) or just a statement of where we're at...

Cheers,

Gordon

[graham]

On 25/02/2015 4:24 PM, Gordon Henderson wrote:
> In article <VisHw.1430883$wG7.6...@fx11.iad>,
> graham <gst...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> On 25/02/2015 12:53 AM, Gordon Henderson wrote:
>>> I'm looking at an old Brioche recipe - in French and at one point it
>>> just says:
>>>

>>> pâte bâtard

>>>
>>> This is in-between the mix at slow speed, then the above, then mix at
>>> speed 2.
>>>
>>> A literal translation just tells me batard dough - which might be an
>>> instruction to shape it, but at this point in the recipe, it's just
>>> going from speed 1 to speed 2 in the mixer...
>>>
>>> So I'm wondering if anyone has seen this before and if it actually means
>>> anything. The dough seems to work without me doing anything special at
>>> that point, other than upping the speed...
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> -Gordon
>>>
>> I think it might be a reference to a basic dough or pastry before the
>> fat is added. For example, the paste before you add the butter to make
>> mille feuille or viennoiserie.
>> It's incomplete and therefore the second word is used in its "social"
>> meaning but as an ajective as opposed to a bread type as a noun.
>
> Hm. I've found the same thing now in a recipe for Panettone - at the

> same point - knead once, "pâte bâtard", knead again at 2nd speed then

> add the butter...
>
> So a delay (autolyze) or just a statement of where we're at...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Gordon
>

It's probably a bit of both.
Cheers
Graham

[Gordon Henderson]

In article <xetHw.795195$%M6.3...@fx13.iad>, graham <gst...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>On 25/02/2015 4:24 PM, Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> In article <VisHw.1430883$wG7.6...@fx11.iad>,
>> graham <gst...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> On 25/02/2015 12:53 AM, Gordon Henderson wrote:
>>>> I'm looking at an old Brioche recipe - in French and at one point it
>>>> just says:
>>>>

>>>> pâte bâtard

>>>>
>>>> This is in-between the mix at slow speed, then the above, then mix at
>>>> speed 2.
>>>>
>>>> A literal translation just tells me batard dough - which might be an
>>>> instruction to shape it, but at this point in the recipe, it's just
>>>> going from speed 1 to speed 2 in the mixer...
>>>>
>>>> So I'm wondering if anyone has seen this before and if it actually means
>>>> anything. The dough seems to work without me doing anything special at
>>>> that point, other than upping the speed...
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> -Gordon
>>>>
>>> I think it might be a reference to a basic dough or pastry before the
>>> fat is added. For example, the paste before you add the butter to make
>>> mille feuille or viennoiserie.
>>> It's incomplete and therefore the second word is used in its "social"
>>> meaning but as an ajective as opposed to a bread type as a noun.
>>
>> Hm. I've found the same thing now in a recipe for Panettone - at the

>> same point - knead once, "pâte bâtard", knead again at 2nd speed then

>> add the butter...
>>
>> So a delay (autolyze) or just a statement of where we're at...
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Gordon
>>
>It's probably a bit of both.

So... Speaking to an old friend and I remembered he's a very good french
speaker and he reckons it's a measure of the texture of the dough. He
thinks there are three stages - firm, medium and soft with pâte bâtard
being in the middle but he was unsure of the other terms.

So it appears to be more a dough texture to aim for before cranking it up to
speed 2...

Cheers,

Gordon

[graham]

On 27/02/2015 3:32 AM, Gordon Henderson wrote:
> In article <xetHw.795195$%M6.3...@fx13.iad>, graham <gst...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> On 25/02/2015 4:24 PM, Gordon Henderson wrote:
>>> In article <VisHw.1430883$wG7.6...@fx11.iad>,
>>> graham <gst...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>> On 25/02/2015 12:53 AM, Gordon Henderson wrote:
>>>>> I'm looking at an old Brioche recipe - in French and at one point it
>>>>> just says:
>>>>>

>>>>> pâte bâtard

>>>>>
>>>>> This is in-between the mix at slow speed, then the above, then mix at
>>>>> speed 2.
>>>>>
>>>>> A literal translation just tells me batard dough - which might be an
>>>>> instruction to shape it, but at this point in the recipe, it's just
>>>>> going from speed 1 to speed 2 in the mixer...
>>>>>
>>>>> So I'm wondering if anyone has seen this before and if it actually means
>>>>> anything. The dough seems to work without me doing anything special at
>>>>> that point, other than upping the speed...
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> -Gordon
>>>>>
>>>> I think it might be a reference to a basic dough or pastry before the
>>>> fat is added. For example, the paste before you add the butter to make
>>>> mille feuille or viennoiserie.
>>>> It's incomplete and therefore the second word is used in its "social"
>>>> meaning but as an ajective as opposed to a bread type as a noun.
>>>
>>> Hm. I've found the same thing now in a recipe for Panettone - at the

>>> same point - knead once, "pâte bâtard", knead again at 2nd speed then

>>> add the butter...
>>>
>>> So a delay (autolyze) or just a statement of where we're at...
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Gordon
>>>
>> It's probably a bit of both.
>
> So... Speaking to an old friend and I remembered he's a very good french
> speaker and he reckons it's a measure of the texture of the dough. He

> thinks there are three stages - firm, medium and soft with pâte bâtard

> being in the middle but he was unsure of the other terms.
>
> So it appears to be more a dough texture to aim for before cranking it up to
> speed 2...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Gordon
>

There is a French and a Belgian boulangere here, both of which I visit
rarely as one puts on weight just looking at what is on offer. I will
ask them if they are around when next I weaken:-)
Graham

[Barry Harmon]

On Wed Feb 25 13:24:09 2015 Boron Elgar wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 17:12:23 GMT, Barry Harmon
> <john...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> >On Wed Feb 25 07:53:50 2015 Gordon Henderson wrote:
> >> I'm looking at an old Brioche recipe - in French and at one point it
> >> just says:
> >>

> >> pâte bâtard

> >>
> >> This is in-between the mix at slow speed, then the above, then mix at
> >> speed 2.
> >>
> >> A literal translation just tells me batard dough - which might be an
> >> instruction to shape it, but at this point in the recipe, it's just
> >> going from speed 1 to speed 2 in the mixer...
> >>
> >> So I'm wondering if anyone has seen this before and if it actually means
> >> anything. The dough seems to work without me doing anything special at
> >> that point, other than upping the speed...
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> -Gordon
> >
> >Here's a link I found that mentions pate batard, which is what I think you wrote.
> >
> >Pate batard, which is what I think you wrote, seems to be the water and yeast mixed together and allowed to work for 20 mninutes.
> >
> >So, possibly the recipe means to prepare the yeast/water mix. At the same time, mix together the rest of the ingredients. When the pate batard has started working, after the mentioned 20 minutes, add it to the main portion of the ingredients and increase the mixer speed.
> >
> >Does this make sense?
> >
> >Barry
> >
> Sounds like autolyze.

I'm not sure it is autolyse. The instructions seem to say that the pate batard is the mix of yeast and water, which is allowed to work for a while before being added (or having added to it) the rest of the ingredients. (I realize that is a very awkward sentence, but I think you get the idea.)

I've looked through Reinhart and several other books and can't find any mention of pate batard as a process.

However, I use an autolyse process for most of my breads, so this might just be another way of talking about it. What threw me off was that the autolyse was supposedly invented or named by Calvel, so you would think that a French recipe would have used the autolyse term if that is what they were doing. I think maybe pate batard goes back further in time, maybe to the days when commercial yeast either wasn't in wide use or was unreliable.

Just a series of guesses.

[graham]

On 25/02/2015 12:53 AM, Gordon Henderson wrote:

> I'm looking at an old Brioche recipe - in French and at one point it
> just says:
>

> pâte bâtard

>
> This is in-between the mix at slow speed, then the above, then mix at
> speed 2.
>
> A literal translation just tells me batard dough - which might be an
> instruction to shape it, but at this point in the recipe, it's just
> going from speed 1 to speed 2 in the mixer...
>
> So I'm wondering if anyone has seen this before and if it actually means
> anything. The dough seems to work without me doing anything special at
> that point, other than upping the speed...
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Gordon
>

I found the answer in Joel Ortiz' "The Village Baker", which I think was
the first bread book I bought. He writes:
Dough Consistency
French bakers recognise three basic consistencies of dough: Firm, moist
and a combination of the two, which is a crossbreed and therefore called
bâtard in French.

Firm dough (La pâte ferme) 52-55% hydration.
Regular dough (La pâte bâtarde) 60-62% hydration.
Moist dough (La pâte douce) ~65% hydration.

He also mentions a very wet dough (La pâte très molle) of >65%
hydration that is rarely used by French bakers.

Remember that French flour (Type T55) is a relatively soft flour of
around 11% protein in contrast to the prairie hard wheat flours of ~14%+
protein that need much more water to achieve the same result.

Published in 1993, Ortiz is just about the earliest of the current crop
of artisan bread books. Much of the book is given over to recipes for US
home bakers and therefore the measurements are in cups. However, the
last 1/3 is written for professionals and weights are specified, some
even in metric.

Graham

--
Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
Victor Stenger

[Gordon Henderson]

In article <Sl9Iw.1933021$FX2.1...@fx18.iad>,

graham <gst...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>On 25/02/2015 12:53 AM, Gordon Henderson wrote:
>> I'm looking at an old Brioche recipe - in French and at one point it
>> just says:
>>

>> pĆ¢te bĆ¢tard

>>
>> This is in-between the mix at slow speed, then the above, then mix at
>> speed 2.
>>
>> A literal translation just tells me batard dough - which might be an
>> instruction to shape it, but at this point in the recipe, it's just
>> going from speed 1 to speed 2 in the mixer...
>>
>> So I'm wondering if anyone has seen this before and if it actually means
>> anything. The dough seems to work without me doing anything special at
>> that point, other than upping the speed...
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -Gordon
>>
>I found the answer in Joel Ortiz' "The Village Baker", which I think was
>the first bread book I bought. He writes:
>Dough Consistency
>French bakers recognise three basic consistencies of dough: Firm, moist
>and a combination of the two, which is a crossbreed and therefore called

>bātard in French.
>
>Firm dough (La pāte ferme) 52-55% hydration.
>Regular dough (La pāte bātarde) 60-62% hydration.
>Moist dough (La pāte douce) ~65% hydration.
>
>He also mentions a very wet dough (La pāte trčs molle) of >65%

>hydration that is rarely used by French bakers.
>
>Remember that French flour (Type T55) is a relatively soft flour of
>around 11% protein in contrast to the prairie hard wheat flours of ~14%+
>protein that need much more water to achieve the same result.
>
>Published in 1993, Ortiz is just about the earliest of the current crop
>of artisan bread books. Much of the book is given over to recipes for US
>home bakers and therefore the measurements are in cups. However, the
>last 1/3 is written for professionals and weights are specified, some
>even in metric.

Fantastic, thanks!

(And I'm also moving to using eggs by weight too, so in Brioche
recipes without milk, %hydration is easy to calculate)

Cheers,

Gordon

[~misfit~]

Once upon a time on usenet graham wrote:


[all but sig snipped]

> Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
> Victor Stenger

Heh! I like that sig, so very true.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

[~misfit~]

Once upon a time on usenet ~misfit~ wrote:
> Once upon a time on usenet graham wrote:
>
>
> [all but sig snipped]
>
>> Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
>> Victor Stenger
>
> Heh! I like that sig, so very true.

It's funny how the mind works. Ever since I read this and posted just over
two weeks ago I've had a silly little word play that I heard as a child
stuck in my head. The above reminded me of it;

Time flies like an arrow
Fruit flies like a banana

My head must be rather empty for something like this to not get pushed out
for over two weeks. :-/