Re: Coarse brown seedy bread

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Peter Flynn

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Aug 29, 2017, 2:43:58 PM8/29/17
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[My apologies for the lack of header threading — the original has long
since been expired out of my provider's newsspool.]

On 10/02/14 23:32 "Peter Flynn" <pe...@silmaril.ie> wrote in message
news:blt5t1...@mid.individual.net

> I am trying to recreate a small brown seeded loaf in a Panasonic...
> http://silmaril.ie/images/IMG_20140222_172721.jpg
> It has a very open texture like soda bread (I wrote "coarse" in the
> subject, but I don't mean rough), so it's a quite moist and crumbly
> when very fresh. It has sunflower, pumpkin, flax, and linseeds in it,
> a lot of them, and my brother-in-law refers to it as "green" bread
> because the pumpkin seeds make it almost a greenish brown. It's also
> very slightly sweet, so I suspect a touch of molasses. As sold, the
> risen top is rough and craggy, not dissimilar to soda bread,
> certainly not smooth and domed.

I had lots of excellent advice from many of you, but I was unable to get
it right, so I moved on...until I found this local flour, which I had
completely forgotten about:
http://www.ardkeen.com/shop/larder/macroom-flour-stoneground-wholewheat-flour-extra-coarse

Yay :-) Now I have the exact right flavour and texture...but when I took
it out, the top of the loaf was deeply sunk down, although the crumb was
fully cooked, and the texture was fine. The recipe is based on the
standard Panasonic book ones, with a bit more sugar and water:

½ tsp dried yeast (McDougalls Dried Yeast Fast Action)
400g Macroom coarse oatmeal flour (just under 3 cups)
20g butter (about 2 tbsp)
1 tsp salt
2 tbsp dark muscovado sugar
320 ml water (1⅓ cups)

What I don't know is which of the ingredients I should adjust.

In Feb 2014, Graham suggested Peter Reinhart's book, where he uses
coarsely ground wheat in some recipes but soaks it before making the
dough. I certainly can, but despite the sinking, the result above didn't
seem to be in any way hard.

I omitted the seeds for the above test. I need to add the following in
the flap-down dispenser:

2 tbsp pumpkin seeds
2 tbsp sunflower seeds
2 tbsp pine nuts
2 tbsp poppy seeds
2 tbsp sesame seeds

so there will presumably need to be some adjustment to compensate for
this, although Panasonic's own recipe for white seedy bread is identical
to its recipe for plain white bread, just with added seeds...

///Peter

U.S. Janet B.

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Aug 29, 2017, 4:04:02 PM8/29/17
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>320 ml water (1? cups)
>
>What I don't know is which of the ingredients I should adjust.
>
>In Feb 2014, Graham suggested Peter Reinhart's book, where he uses
>coarsely ground wheat in some recipes but soaks it before making the
>dough. I certainly can, but despite the sinking, the result above didn't
>seem to be in any way hard.
>
>I omitted the seeds for the above test. I need to add the following in
>the flap-down dispenser:
>
>2 tbsp pumpkin seeds
>2 tbsp sunflower seeds
>2 tbsp pine nuts
>2 tbsp poppy seeds
>2 tbsp sesame seeds
>
>so there will presumably need to be some adjustment to compensate for
>this, although Panasonic's own recipe for white seedy bread is identical
>to its recipe for plain white bread, just with added seeds...
>
>///Peter

The top sinking indicates that the loaf was over risen in the second
proof before putting it into the oven. You are going to have to use
the finger test to judge because you can't expect a nice domed top
with the ingredients you are using. If you stick to the loaf when
testing with your finger, be sure to liberally cover your finger or
hand with flour.
I wonder if the bread you are describing could be done as a batter
bread.
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/bread/quick-and-easy-batter-breads
Janet US

Peter Flynn

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Aug 30, 2017, 5:08:27 PM8/30/17
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On 29/08/17 21:03, U.S. Janet B. wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 19:43:55 +0100, Peter Flynn <pet...@spam.silmaril.ie> wrote:
[...]
>> Yay :-) Now I have the exact right flavour and texture...but when I took
>> it out, the top of the loaf was deeply sunk down, although the crumb was
>> fully cooked, and the texture was fine.
[...]
> The top sinking indicates that the loaf was over risen in the second
> proof before putting it into the oven.

Aha. As this was inside the bread machine I'll have to check the manual
to see how long into the 5-hr cycle the second rise takes place.

So if it puffs up too much in the second rise, it will collapse back
when it bakes? What causes too great a second rise? Too much yeast or
something about the content of the flour? Proteins? Gluten?

> You are going to have to use the finger test to judge because you
> can't expect a nice domed top with the ingredients you are using.
Definitely NOT looking for a nice domed top. My original post said
something like "as sold, the risen top is rough and craggy, not
dissimilar to soda bread, certainly not smooth and domed."

> If you stick to the loaf when testing with your finger, be sure to
> liberally cover your finger or hand with flour.
Right.

> I wonder if the bread you are describing could be done as a batter
> bread.
> http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/bread/quick-and-easy-batter-breads

I haven't come across the term batter bread before. Certainly the Irish
Brown Bread is along the right lines, except that this is a yeast bread.

Thanks very much
///Peter

U.S. Janet B.

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Aug 30, 2017, 6:35:33 PM8/30/17
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On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 22:08:24 +0100, Peter Flynn <pe...@silmaril.ie>
wrote:
Time/temperature is what makes an over risen loaf. Each mix of
ingredients, each manipulation (or lack) imposes an optimal time. One
has a great amount of leeway when making loaves by non-machine
methods. You have a limited amount with the bread machine. It would
seem to me that your mix of ingredients makes you vulnerable because
there just aren't a lot of gluten forming ingredients in your mix.

Please look at this link for Yeasted batter or casserole bread and see
if you can get the gist of this approach
http://tinyurl.com/yaq4z399
Janet US

Peter Flynn

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Aug 31, 2017, 8:50:29 PM8/31/17
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On 30/08/17 23:35, U.S. Janet B. wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 22:08:24 +0100, Peter Flynn <pe...@silmaril.ie>
> wrote:
[snip]
> Time/temperature is what makes an over risen loaf. Each mix of
> ingredients, each manipulation (or lack) imposes an optimal time.
> One has a great amount of leeway when making loaves by non-machine
> methods. You have a limited amount with the bread machine. It would
> seem to me that your mix of ingredients makes you vulnerable because
> there just aren't a lot of gluten forming ingredients in your mix.

Ah. OK, I will work on this.

> Please look at this link for Yeasted batter or casserole bread and
> see if you can get the gist of this approach
> http://tinyurl.com/yaq4z399

Very interesting, many thanks.

P

~misfit~

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Sep 13, 2017, 9:13:43 PM9/13/17
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Once upon a time on usenet U.S. Janet B. wrote:

<snipped>

> Time/temperature is what makes an over risen loaf. Each mix of
> ingredients, each manipulation (or lack) imposes an optimal time. One
> has a great amount of leeway when making loaves by non-machine
> methods. You have a limited amount with the bread machine.

<snipped>

That is gold right there! As someone who uses a bread machine I think that
is the single most important truth that should be printed inside the machine
lid.

When I started making bread with a machine I very quickly learned how
critical it was to accurately measure everything (I even weight the water!)
to get an optimal result. As you can't manipulate time and temp all you can
change to get it right is the mix of ingredients.

Obviously the main ingredient for this purpose is yeast (I don't add sugar
to dough to "feed the yeast" and consider doing that to be an abomination -
a perversion of the bread making process). However another often overlooked
factor is 'wetness'. A gloppier dough is a more active dough as the yeast,
its food and its waste are more mobile. The yeast gets more food and doesn't
get inhibited by its own waste products. So wetter = faster and drier =
slower. In a bread machine there's a fine line between under risen and over
risen dough and it can be hard to find that line - especially if nobody
tells you how to do so.

Also ambient temperature affects how active the dough is and how fast it
'works'. Yes bread machines warm the dough during rise cycles by flicking
the heating element on and off but they do it to a pre-programmed pattern
and don't reference room temperature or inside temperature. So on a colder
day it won't get as warm as it will on a warmer day. (At least that is the
case with all of the several bread makers I've disassembled - I guess very
expensive machines might work differently but I doubt it. That level of
control is unlikely to find its way into anything costing under
half-a-grand.) So I use a little more water or yeast in winter than I do in
summer...

I used to make bread without a machine before I became an invalid and was
quite good at it. However when I started using a machine I had to learn a
whole different but related set of rules before I managed to get decent
loaves out of my machine.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)


U.S. Janet B.

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Sep 13, 2017, 11:19:07 PM9/13/17
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Regarding sugar in bread. You are absolutely correct that yeast does
not need to be fed sugar to rise. Sugar does have a place in making
the type of bread that is not simply flour, water, yeast and salt.
Sugar tenderizes and preserves moistness besides adding to the flavor
profile. However, too much sugar weakens the cell structure of the
yeast and a switch to a special yeast is required. A great load of
sugar also damages gluten production. The gluten proteins link with
the sugar instead of each other.
These types of breads are often celebration breads or sweet doughs
meant for coffee cake and so forth.
The addition of sugar/honey, fats, eggs and milk are intended to
tenderize the loaf and make it stay moist and tender longer.
Janet US

~misfit~

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Sep 14, 2017, 7:44:16 AM9/14/17
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I agree - I do add sugar to some breads on rare occasions. My wording was
quite careful, that I don't add sugar to "feed the yeast". ;)

Sugar is a humectant - meaning that it binds water and makes it unavailable
to other processes (which is how sugar preserves fruit in jam etc. - the
microbes can't get enough water to support life processes so it doesn't
'spoil' easilly). That's how it can 'preserve moistness' in the crumb, by
binding to and thus stopping some of the water from being driven off during
baking.. As to too much sugar damaging gluten structure my understanding was
that it binds too much water and prevents the gluten getting enough but I
could be wrong - it wouldn't be the first time. I'm always happy to be
enlightened.

When I do 'enrich' a dough I add the sugar, egg, fat etc. after the gluten
matrix has mostly formed already. I usually start with the basic bread
ingredients (flour, water, [some of the] yeast and salt) and only add other
things after giving the dough at least 90 minutes (and often much longer) to
become 'bread dough' before enriching it. It works for me.

Adding the enriching ingredients towards the end also minimises any issues
with introducing enzymes (in the milk or honey especially) that may
interfere with the action of the yeast or formation of the gluten matrix.
Scalding the milk denatures any enzymes present there but you can't do that
with eggs and it's not easy with honey either.

U.S. Janet B.

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Sep 14, 2017, 12:42:46 PM9/14/17
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On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 23:44:07 +1200, "~misfit~"
I do scald the milk and find that really does make a difference. I
used to add the salt at the end of kneading but found that bothersome.
I only use honey in one recipe as I really don't like the taste of
honey. I do think it is important for everyone to be aware of these
interactions so they may make adjustments (if they wish) to achieve
the best crumb and the best crust color possible.
Janet US

~misfit~

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Sep 14, 2017, 11:48:21 PM9/14/17
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I agree completely. Better for people to understand the principles behind
the issue rather than get a quick fix. "Give a man a fish..." and all that.

If I want to use milk in a bread then I use dried milk as it's already had
its enzymes denatured and it's easier than scalding fresh milk. :)

I used to only use a small amount of salt (a philisophy I have with all
cooking) as I find that it masks subtle flavours. However I was getting very
variable results with my bread only using 1 tsp in a 1 kg loaf, often it
would collapse at the end of baking. Then I read (in Popular Mechanics of
all places) that the hardening of the gluten matrix during baking is reliant
on sodium it gets from the salt added to the dough. I started using 2 tsps
per 1 kg loaf and ever since then have had far more predictable results.

U.S. Janet B.

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Sep 15, 2017, 1:12:36 AM9/15/17
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On Fri, 15 Sep 2017 15:48:17 +1200, "~misfit~"
I believe that you are incorrect about the enzymes being denatured in
regular dried milk. We had this discussion here about 15-20 years
ago. (maybe longer) There is a baker's special dried milk product
with denatured enzymes but it is expensive. I used it for a bit and
then just started scalding milk instead.
Janet US

~misfit~

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Sep 15, 2017, 11:28:37 PM9/15/17
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Interesting, thanks for sharing. Actually you're probably right as modern
dried milk is dried using the 'freeze dry' method. Perhaps in the past it
was done more with heat - which is where my 'acquired knowledge' that dried
milk has denatured enzymes comes from. (Heat denatures enzymes but freezing
doesn't.) I'll update my internal database. ;)

I'll also keep it in mind in future but frankly I hardly ever make enriched
breads and when I do I add those ingredients after I already have a good
well developed bread dough base.

Cheers,

Peter Flynn

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Jan 29, 2020, 10:05:56 AM1/29/20
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I am now revisiting this experiment using my new Lakeland bread machine.

(BTW the Panasonic still works but the display segments are missing and
random, so it's almost impossible to tell what it says or what it's
doing. If anyone wants it for parts, let me know. Otherwise it will go
in the WEEE.)

So...I'm trying to emulate a bread sold by a local company as "Omega 3"
(because: seeds :-) and this is what it looks like:

http://silmaril.ie/images/IMG_20140222_172632.jpg
http://silmaril.ie/images/IMG_20140222_172721.jpg

I seem to have some of the right basic ingredient proportions, because
the taste was perfect, but the rise was poor and the top sank in the middle.

Last time, I bought some gluten and added 2 tbsp and it didn't have much
effect — some but not a lot. Then the Panasonic got sick, so there's
been a pause.

On 14/09/2017 02:13, ~misfit~ wrote:
[...]

> [...] As you can't manipulate time and temp all you can
> change to get it right is the mix of ingredients.

The new machine is programmable :-) so I can make up a combination of
rest/mix/rise/mix/rise/etc/bake (eventually)

> Obviously the main ingredient for this purpose is yeast (I don't add sugar
> to dough to "feed the yeast" and consider doing that to be an abomination -
> a perversion of the bread making process).

In this case the bought version of this bread that I'm trying to emulate
does taste a little bit sweet, so I do add 1tbsp sugar, but not to feed
the yeast; to make it taste slightly sweet.

> However another often overlooked factor is 'wetness'. A gloppier
> dough is a more active dough as the yeast, its food and its waste are
> more mobile.
I have a more gloppier one on the go right now, done in 30 mins but it's
not looking good — doesn't appear to have risen at all.

> The yeast gets more food and doesn't get inhibited by its own waste
> products. So wetter = faster and drier = slower. In a bread machine
> there's a fine line between under risen and over risen dough and it
> can be hard to find that line - especially if nobody tells you how to
> do so.

I need to find that by experimentation.

> Also ambient temperature affects how active the dough is and how fast it
> 'works'. Yes bread machines warm the dough during rise cycles by flicking
> the heating element on and off but they do it to a pre-programmed pattern
> and don't reference room temperature or inside temperature. So on a colder
> day it won't get as warm as it will on a warmer day.

You'd think that including an external thermometer wouldn't be very hard.

[snip large amount of massively useful information from Shaun and Janet]

I'm using 450g (1 lb) coarse brown stone-milled flour with 1 tsp dried
yeast, 25 g (1 oz) butter, and 320 ml (11 fl.oz) water, with a tbsp
brown sugar and a tsp salt.

If this flour is low in gluten (the bag uninformatively says just
"Wheat: contains gluten"), roughly how much gluten should I add?

Peter

graham

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Jan 29, 2020, 11:02:00 AM1/29/20
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Chances are that it is UK Plain, milled from soft wheat and therefore
about 8-9% gluten equivalent (the included germ adds to the protein
content and confuses)**. Add enough gluten to take it up to ~11%. I know
you are looking for the coarse crumb but for the first loaf, sieve the
flour to remove the coarser bran.

**I buy hard wheat flour from a local bulk store. The protein content is
specified - 12% for white and 14%+ for the WW. I reckon that this extra
is from the wheat germ and is not related to the gluten content. I used
the WW the other day but sieved off the coarser bran flakes before using
it, without adding any white or gluten, so it was a high extract WW
flour. The crumb was excellent.
Graham

Peter Flynn

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Jan 30, 2020, 4:24:30 PM1/30/20
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On 29/01/2020 16:01, graham wrote:
> On 2020-01-29 8:05 a.m., Peter Flynn wrote:
[...]
>> I'm using 450g (1 lb) coarse brown stone-milled flour with 1 tsp
>> dried yeast, 25 g (1 oz) butter, and 320 ml (11 fl.oz) water, with
>> a tbsp brown sugar and a tsp salt.
>>
>> If this flour is low in gluten (the bag uninformatively says just
>> "Wheat: contains gluten"), roughly how much gluten should I add?
>>
>>
> Chances are that it is UK Plain, milled from soft wheat and therefore
> about 8-9% gluten equivalent (the included germ adds to the protein
> content and confuses)**.

I will call the mill and ask. It's Macroom Stoneground Wholewheat Flour
Extra Coarse, and the mill is only about 20km from here (Cork)

> Add enough gluten to take it up to ~11%.

Excellent, thank you.

> I know you are looking for the coarse crumb but for the first loaf,
> sieve the flour to remove the coarser bran.

OK, good idea.

> **I buy hard wheat flour from a local bulk store. The protein
> content is specified - 12% for white and 14%+ for the WW. I reckon
> that this extra is from the wheat germ and is not related to the
> gluten content. I used the WW the other day but sieved off the
> coarser bran flakes before using it, without adding any white or
> gluten, so it was a high extract WW flour. The crumb was excellent.

Very useful, thanks.

Peter

Dusty

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Feb 6, 2020, 1:14:30 PM2/6/20
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Interesting indeed! Thank you Janet for posting it. I'm not usually a
yeast user, but I may have to give this one a lash.

Take care and be well all,
Dusty
Off of a dirt road, on a hill, and deep in the forest just NE of
Everett, WA.
--
"The ultimate result of shielding men from folly is to fill the world
with fools." -- Herbert Spencer
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