Subway-style bread loaves

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Tim Schubach

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Oct 26, 2003, 7:03:45 PM10/26/03
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I'm trying to find a recipe for sub sandwich "buns" ... something along the
lines of what Subway uses in their stores. I'd like to be able to make
different kinds of breads as well: wheat, herb, Italian, etc. Or should I
be looking for a book in the local library?

TIA,
tms


Roy Basan

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Oct 26, 2003, 9:45:17 PM10/26/03
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"Tim Schubach" <woode...@woh.rr.com> wrote in message news:<BhZmb.166163$xx4.29...@twister.neo.rr.com>...

That kind of buns are made from a soft roll dough which is the same
base for hamburger and hotdog buns.
A typical commercial recipe would be like this in Bakers percent
Bread flour 100%
Fresh yeast 3%
Sugar 8%
Shortening 6%
Skim milk powder 2%
Eggs 6%
Salt 1.7- 2%
Water (+/-) 60%
Bread improver 1-2%( varies with manufacturers recommendation)
The dough should be soft but not wet.
This addition of improver is optional and suited only for
institutional operation which needs good baking tolerance as well as
abbreviation of the production time,employing the so called short time
and no time dough method.
But it can improve your buns quality
If you find their buns are really soft its because it was done
properly.
The secret of a good buns is not only in the recipe but the way how
you process, the dough which follow the standard breadmaking
process; but in particular the most important is the proofing
should be in a high humidity setting and when fully proofed it is
baked properly.
Regarding the toppings you can create that yourself if you are
familiar of cookery and how to blend different herbs with cheese or
other toppings and you can also try to decipher from the Subway
outlet the composition of their toppings.
Good Luck!
Roy

Janet Bostwick

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Oct 26, 2003, 9:55:14 PM10/26/03
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"Roy Basan" <rba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:95b037df.03102...@posting.google.com...
snip

> If you find their buns are really soft its because it was done
> properly.
> The secret of a good buns is not only in the recipe but the way how
> you process, the dough which follow the standard breadmaking
> process; but in particular the most important is the proofing
> should be in a high humidity setting and when fully proofed it is
> baked properly.
snip
> Roy

Roy,
What difference would high humidity(in the above context) have to the home
baker since we mostly proof in a bowl? I don't understand. Explain please.
Janet


Jean-Scott

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Oct 26, 2003, 10:36:46 PM10/26/03
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"Janet Bostwick" <nos...@cableone.net> wrote in
news:vpp2p8g...@corp.supernews.com:

You ferment in a bowl, where as you proof the product or products, being
bread or buns or rolls. Proofing the last stage of raising the dough
product just before baking. By proofing in a high humidty atmosphere such
as a proof box, where you can increase the temp and moisture, you
excellerate the raisng which weakens the gluten web and makes for a softer
crumb. Plus by the addition of the shortening, skim milk and eggs, the
bread will be finer taking on cake like attributes, but still a dough. For
instance, the original bagel is a tuffer chewy bread, where as Americans
didn't like it, so the commercial applications such as Burger King
breakfast bagels and most of the neighborhood bagel shops have soften up
the product by introducing shortening and eggs into the dough.

Jean Scott

Janet Bostwick

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Oct 26, 2003, 10:57:43 PM10/26/03
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"Jean-Scott" <Chef...@Holiday.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9420C7B17...@68.6.19.6...

Of course, you're right, I responded without thinking. Thank you for
pointing out that we were talking about proofing.
Janet


Jean-Scott

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Oct 26, 2003, 11:21:13 PM10/26/03
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"Janet Bostwick" <nos...@cableone.net> wrote in
news:vpp60q...@corp.supernews.com:

It is my pleasure to help, my friend.

Il est mon plaisir d'aider, mon ami.

Ed Okie

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Oct 27, 2003, 8:30:52 AM10/27/03
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"Jean-Scott" <Chef...@Holiday.com> wrote in message news:<Xns9420C7B17...@68.6.19.6>...
> >> The secret of a good buns is not only in the recipe but the way how
> >> you process, the dough which follow the standard breadmaking
> >> process; but in particular the most important is the proofing
> >> should be in a high humidity setting> >> Roy
> >
> ... By proofing in a high humidty atmosphere such
> as a proof box, where you can increase the temp and moisture, you
> [speed up] the raising which weakens the gluten web...
> Jean Scott

In a production-baking setting I can fully understand the need to
speed up the process. To a home baker where quality is the key
endeavor, "time" is generally not an issue per se.
Less than clearcut: you're suggesting that a "weakend gluten web"
results - when it raises (proofs) faster in a warm/humid environment,
whereas a slower (less warm) and resulting longer rise period creates
a stronger web? (in both cases the dough raised to the -same- proof
height under same humidity conditions)

Jean-Scott

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Oct 27, 2003, 10:46:35 AM10/27/03
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ok...@digital.net (Ed Okie) wrote in
news:4941ec7f.03102...@posting.google.com:

Ahh, yes, but since you proofed the dough quickly, the dough will be weak
(my best translation). So take two baguettes side by side. 1 proofed over
a 3-4 hour time period at room temperature, the other proofed in a proof
box for 1 hour. Both the same size and similar shape after proofing. The
one aged proof will be tall and roundish after baking whereas the
proofbox one will be oval and very flat on the bottom. If you go to your
local bakery department at your favorite grocery store and look at their
Artisan breads, and they are really flat on the bottom, they have been
proofed most likely in a proofbox.

But if you go to a little mom & pop bakery that makes regional Artisan
breads by hand, theirs will most likely be tall and roundish with a very
small flat bottom.

Many bakeries cheat by using a "French bread pan" which indeed is not a
bread pan used in France but a way to make a round "looking" loaf because
they have proofed the dough too quickly and typically would have a flat
bottom, but want the round bottom, so they cheat and make the flat bottom
bread in a roundish shaped pan. This bread they will call a French bread,
but it is very dense and the crust is very thick. True French bread is
not dense. It is light and fluffy inside and chewy texture with a thin
thin crispy crust. Our crust is almost potato chip thin. This comes from
the process.

True baguettes and are not baked in this round shaped pan, but flat. The
proper proofing technique will give you a tall and almost round bottom
product.

It is hard to tell people how to bake a good bread, It takes many years
of practice. Some may say its not rocket science... but I say its pretty
close. There are many variables to achieving a perfect bread.

If given paint colors of red, blue, and yellow, and were taught how to
mix the colors properly to get any color you want, and shown some
techniques that famous artists have used, it still does not make you an
artist.


Jean Scott

Anvah Gareson

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Nov 1, 2003, 7:05:58 PM11/1/03
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Hey,

A quick question for you:

I have read that high pressure steam injection at the beginning of bake
and high, even heat distribution gives the professional baker an edge in
creating this 'thin, thin crisp' crust. The recommendation for the home
baker is to introduce steam by pouring hot water in a dish in the oven
and spraying the oven walls to try and mimic this. I understand this so
far.

However, when I do this, I end up with a thick hard crust that quickly
becomes rubbery after a few hours. Is that because I'm not introducing
enough steam? I am baking upon tiles in an oven that's pre-heated for
at least 1/2 hour. I have a pan about 9" in diameter upon which I pour
hot water to create the steam. I'm thinking of building using some
layers of steel a sheet of depressed metal that occupies the size of my
oven. This gives me more surface area that can evaporate water and
create more steam. Will this improve the crust?

Thanks,

Anvah

Janet Bostwick

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Nov 1, 2003, 8:11:19 PM11/1/03
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"Anvah Gareson" <an...@no-spam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9426C24E33C9Ea...@66.185.95.104...
> Hey,
>
snip

>
> However, when I do this, I end up with a thick hard crust that quickly
> becomes rubbery after a few hours. Is that because I'm not introducing
> enough steam? I am baking upon tiles in an oven that's pre-heated for
> at least 1/2 hour. snip
> Thanks,
>
> Anvah

Although you didn't ask me, my personal feeling is that you are perhaps
working too much fresh flour onto the surface of the dough when you handle
it to shape the loaves. I think this additional flour becomes only
partially absorbed and doesn't become part of the dough, but rather a sort
of paste covering. The rubbery surface results from the internal moisture
escaping and dampening the surface. Check the internal temperature of the
loaf to make sure that it is really done as well. Another thing you might
try is leaving the loaves in the turned off oven with the door ajar for an
additional 10 minutes.

Janet


Roy Basan

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Nov 2, 2003, 6:47:58 AM11/2/03
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ok...@digital.net (Ed Okie) wrote in message news:<4941ec7f.03102...@posting.google.com>...

Tthe proofing conditions can accelerate or slow down the proofing
rate of tthe dough and that varies with the amount of relative
humidity in the proofer.
I may have to expound it in a different manner so that it will bring
some light about the difference of the proofing conditons can affect
the dough and bread quality.


>In a production-baking setting I can fully understand the need to
>speed up the process. To a home baker where quality is the key
>endeavor, "time" is generally not an issue per se.
<Less than clearcut: you're suggesting that a "weakend gluten web"
<results -

Ed I have an explanation about the dough expansion during proofing.
Indeed the dough will expand like a balloon expanding the minute gas
cells to the limit of breaking point that can be considered fully
proofed. But if it goes beyond that point the dough is considered
overproof;now if the cells are not well expanded that is considered
under proofed.
Now normally if the dough is allowed to proof under normal conditions
the ambient humidity usually encourage more drying as the surface
moisture evaporates. At the conditions the gluten expansion is not
maximized but restricted at the point that the surface moisture
leaves the dough leaving the gluten to loose its elasticity and the
starch granule will adhere to the gluten restricting partially its
movement.
The sufficient humidity serves as the lubricant for even expansion
and the protein molecules retain the flexibility to flow out and
therefore continuously entraining the precious leavening gases.
There comes a time when the maximum expansion was reached and the
protein membrane is stretched to the point that it will start leaking
out some of the gases.I think this is what Jean means by weakening.
As the gas cells are like bubbles there is the point of maximum
expansion and extension that it the gas internal pressure is more than
the gas bubble can support and it will behave like a permeable
membrane allowing the release of the pressurized outward.
Indeed there is complex mathematics and physics here for described the
application of bubble eechanics.
The expansion os also accelerated by the temperature as following the
physics of gas laws

>when it raises (proofs) faster in a warm/humid >environment,
>whereas a slower (less warm) and resulting longer rise >period
creates
>a stronger web? (in both cases the dough raised to the -same- proof

>height under same humidity conditions.

To explain your point slower proof did allows some toughening of the
gluten skin as its partially dehydrated by less humidity. But again if
the humidity is really insufficient that will led lesser expansion
that will led to restriction in gas cells capacity.
Indeed it can be interpreted as stronger web due to the rigidity that
limited expansion brings.
However during baking the sudden expansion brought by oven heat will
tear down many of these rigid cell walls resulting that some gas
bubbles coalesce to form bigger cells resulting in an irregular sized
cell structure.
That is also the reason for the ragged break of some loaves when baked
underproofed.
If you allow the loaf to proof slowly there is the tendency that the
proofing is unevent and the resulting crumb structure is much less
uniform. Although three are some exception as dough with some
diffference in hydration tends to produced a more uniform crumb than
the wetter doughs and the former has better proofing tolerance than
the wet doughs. But that is another story.

Whereas if the cell walls has flexibility there will be a more
uniformly sized cells but there are still portions near the surface
of the dough that the heat transfer is rapid due to the vicinity of
the radiated and conducted heat( even considering that the dough is
poor conductor of heat). So you will see that if you bake the bread at
a higher temperatures there is a tendency for some unevenness in crumb
appearance due to that effect.
If we have to measure the volumetric differrence between the dough
risen in less humid conditions and the other dough proofed at the
desirable humidity conditions we will see the difference in the baked
product.
By visual expansion it is not usually discernible but try placing that
in the dough volumeter and pour some rapeseed or mustard seed and
measure the displaced volume you will see the numerical difference
whihc is significant and favors the proofing at the Humid conditions.
Roy

Anvah Gareson

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Nov 2, 2003, 8:37:09 AM11/2/03
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Hey,

Thanks for your suggestion. I will keep this in mind when I make bread
again. :-)

Anvah

Harry Demidavicius

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Nov 2, 2003, 5:48:57 PM11/2/03
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On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 18:11:19 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
<nos...@cableone.net> wrote:

>
>"Anvah Gareson" <an...@no-spam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns9426C24E33C9Ea...@66.185.95.104...
>> Hey,
>>
>snip
>>
>> However, when I do this, I end up with a thick hard crust that quickly
>> becomes rubbery after a few hours. Is that because I'm not introducing
>> enough steam? I am baking upon tiles in an oven that's pre-heated for
>> at least 1/2 hour. snip
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Anvah
>

snip


>. Another thing you might try is leaving the loaves in the turned off oven
>with the door ajar for an additional 10 minutes.
>
>Janet
>

Sitting on a baking stone?

Harry

Jean-Scott

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Nov 2, 2003, 6:02:57 PM11/2/03
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>>
> Sitting on a baking stone?
>
> Harry
>

That's gotta be painful.........

Jean Scott

gw

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Nov 2, 2003, 7:41:35 PM11/2/03
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I hate to say this, as the subway rolls smell so good while one is standing
there, but they taste awful-perhaps when you try making some you could
improve the flavor maybe?
gw

Janet Bostwick

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Nov 2, 2003, 8:28:57 PM11/2/03
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"Harry Demidavicius" <Har...@NOT1SPAMshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:cc2bqvkdtku9gsvji...@4ax.com...

Well, it would be better if the loaves stayed on the stone, but if you want
to, let me know how the buns turn out. ;o)
Janet


Jean-Scott

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Nov 2, 2003, 8:57:37 PM11/2/03
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"Janet Bostwick" <nos...@cableone.net> wrote in news:vqbbqnckll4ma6
@corp.supernews.com:

> >with the door ajar for an additional 10 minutes

What if... you have the jar a door instead... would it be crispy?

Harry Demidavicius

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Nov 3, 2003, 12:29:46 AM11/3/03
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On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:28:57 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
<nos...@cableone.net> wrote:

>
>"Harry Demidavicius" <Har...@NOT1SPAMshaw.ca> wrote in message
>news:cc2bqvkdtku9gsvji...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 18:11:19 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
>> <nos...@cableone.net> wrote:
>>
>snip
>> >. Another thing you might try is leaving the loaves in the turned off
>oven
>> >with the door ajar for an additional 10 minutes.
>> >
>> >Janet
>> >
>> Sitting on a baking stone?
>>
>> Harry
>
>Well, it would be better if the loaves stayed on the stone, but if you want
>to, let me know how the buns turn out. ;o)
>Janet
>

Ouch! ;0)

Harry

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