Hoagie Rolls
Barry Harmon
ounces of dough.
Sponge: 18 ounces of bread flour, 21 ounces warm water (85F), 1/2
teaspoon dry yeast, 1 teaspoon homemade diastatic malt powder (probably
optional; if you don't have it, don't sweat it.)
Let the sponge age for 3 hours. It will probably triple.
Dough: Add 2 teaspoons dry yeast, 2 more teaspoons diastatic powder and
1 ounce solid shortening and mix a bit.
Add 17 ounces bread flour. Mix so it is all wet.
Cover the container and let the dough rest for 20 minutes.
Add a scant tablespoon of salt. Knead for 8-10 minutes until the dough
passes the windowpane test. I use the second speed on my small KA
mixer.
Put the dough in a pot, cover it and let it ferment for 1 hour. It will
expand to a double or triple.
Fold.
Put dough back in the Pot and let ferment for 20 minutes.
Heat oven to 375F.
This is a very lively dough.
Shape rolls. I shaped at 3 ounces and at 1 1/2 ounces. The 3 ounce
rolls I shaped in a torpedo shape, like a hoagie roll. A real hoagie
roll would be 4-5 ounces. These rolls will REALLY expand, so give then
a lot of room on the baking sheet.
Let then rise for 45 minutes. Brush with milk and bake for 20-25
minutes. They will be a nice golden brown and will probably be 3 to 4
times the volume they were when you put them to rise.
Barry
Janet Bostwick
Barry, are you using bread flour that is un-malted?
Janet
Janet Bostwick
> I think I've finally nailed hoagie rolls. This recipe makes about 58
> ounces of dough.
>
Instant yeast or active dry? I'm winging here.
Janet
Barry Harmon
news:YbWdnQWsQM1YZjrU...@supernews.com:
I'm using King Arthur Bread Flour and just regular Red Star dry yeast from
Costco.
That's the only yeast I use. As for the flour, I use KA BF or Harvest
King/Better For Bread interchangeably most of the time. I don't know is KA
BF is malted or not, but adding a bit of my home made whole wheat diastatic
malt seems to give things a boost, so I use it. Gives me a warm, fuzzy,
furry, feel-good feeling
Barry
Janet Bostwick
Barry, you came through for me! Decent hamburger buns at last!!! I need to
know about the consistency of the sponge -- mine was very dry. I had to add
more water when I added the second flour as it was so stiff my mixer
couldn't move it. Was the sponge like a malted milk, oatmeal, what? How
soft is your final dough? My rolls came out fine, but I did some fiddling.
Janet
Barry Harmon
My hoagie roll sponge is really liquid, since it's well over 100%. A
sponge is usually all the water and half the flour, so it will usually
be well over 100%. If it was stiff, then either you or I made a mistake
(My money is on me messing up!) Are you talking about the hamburger
rolls or this recipe? If it's the hamburger roll reicpe, I'll have to
go back and look at what I wrote. I thought I checked it carefully.
My sponge tripled and was really bubbly and airy.
The dough was as good as I've ever made -- resilient, alive, non-sticky
(well, a little) and bubbly.
Barry
Janet Bostwick
I'm talking about this recipe as my hamburger rolls are not the usually
accepted rolls. This is exactly what I want. I used Wheat Montana flour
for the recipe and I did weigh everything as directed. Perhaps my flour is
very dry as well as perhaps higher protein and absorbed more liquid. The
final dough was wonderful -- as you say, silky and resilient. But, how soft
is the final dough. I perhaps could have added more water. These rolls are
very large and very light for their size. 'm happy but would like to know
more. I'm fixing dinner now getting ready to go to friends house for the
evening. will talk later
Janet
Barry Harmon
This is a very strange-acting dough. It's 60% but acts, handles and
bakes up like something a bit (a lot?) wetter. The flour is 35 ounces
and the water is 21 ounces, or 3 parts to 5, which is 60%.
I was trying to find out what would happen if I followed McGee's notes
on solid shortening. He says that adding shortening from 1 to 3% of the
TOTAL weight of the dough will increase loft, with the best results
coming at the lower end of the range. He also says that the higher the
melting point of the shortening (oil, fat, etc.), the better the results
-- the higher the loft of the loaf.
I'd say, judging from my results, that McGee is right. I added a bit of
Crisco to the loaf and my French bread dough, which is what this is, had
great loft and, because I didn't use steam in the oven and brushed with
milk, the top was soft. All in all, I was very pleased with the
results.
Barry
Janet Bostwick
My rolls had great loft. After I shaped them, I flattened them with the
palm of my hand and left them to rise -- the final baked shape was a rounded
4x2 inches. They are very light weight for their size. The skin has body,
I guess I'd say slightly leathery and the inside is tender with body. I had
to try them immediately for large burger patties. The hinge of the roll
stayed intact during eating the hamburger (a big plus) and the interior was
capable of sopping up the juices from the meat and the tomatoes that I use
on my sandwich. There was no bready taste or smell. I like a hamburger bun
with substance and typically buy a faux Kaiser roll for hamburgers and brats
to avoid the icky sweetness and softness of store hamburger buns. These
rolls are perfect. I will make another batch and freeze them in small packs
so that I have them available when needed.
You never said how the solid shortening was incorporated and I assumed that
it was melted first. I will try to make a sponge as liquid as you say. I
added quite a bit of water, even after all the flour was in and the mixer
was running. The 2nd batch of yeast was dissolved in 1/4 cup of water and
that still didn't make the dough loose enough. I was sure that I weighed
everything correctly, but you never know. I do know the the Wheat Montana
flour altered several of my bread recipes where the flour was 6 cups, I had
to add an additional 2 ounces of water. The WM flour has no malt or
ascorbic acid in it. I suppose that I could try the recipe with the Costco
bread flour.
Janet
Barry Harmon
>
> My rolls had great loft. After I shaped them, I flattened them with
> the palm of my hand and left them to rise -- the final baked shape was
> a rounded 4x2 inches. They are very light weight for their size. The
> skin has body, I guess I'd say slightly leathery and the inside is
> tender with body. I had to try them immediately for large burger
> patties. The hinge of the roll stayed intact during eating the
> hamburger (a big plus) and the interior was capable of sopping up the
> juices from the meat and the tomatoes that I use on my sandwich.
> There was no bready taste or smell. I like a hamburger bun with
> substance and typically buy a faux Kaiser roll for hamburgers and
> brats to avoid the icky sweetness and softness of store hamburger
> buns. These rolls are perfect. I will make another batch and freeze
> them in small packs so that I have them available when needed.
> You never said how the solid shortening was incorporated and I assumed
> that it was melted first. I will try to make a sponge as liquid as
> you say. I added quite a bit of water, even after all the flour was
> in and the mixer was running. The 2nd batch of yeast was dissolved in
> 1/4 cup of water and that still didn't make the dough loose enough. I
> was sure that I weighed everything correctly, but you never know. I
> do know the the Wheat Montana flour altered several of my bread
> recipes where the flour was 6 cups, I had to add an additional 2
> ounces of water. The WM flour has no malt or ascorbic acid in it. I
> suppose that I could try the recipe with the Costco bread flour.
> Janet
>
>
>
I just threw the shortening into the sponge and all and let it rip.
Since McGee's book said that the meltiing point of the fat was the
determining factor, I thought that I should keep the fat in solid form.
That's a guess.
Alan has said that WM is a sky high protein flour, so that may be why
you needed more water. As far as I know, KA BF is about 13%, give or
take a bit, and WM is supposed to be over 14%, more like All Trumps,
which I find is too powerful for most of my work. (It's also sold only
in 50 pound bags, so maybe I'm just rationalizing a bit here.)
This dough should handle like a French bread dough with a bit of finesse
-- like that? <g> It starts out a bit heavy and gets smoother and more
fluid as the mixing goes on. After fermentation, it seems to handle
like a cross between my French and my Italian doughs, which is to say a
very nice dough to work with. The rising gets to almost a triple and
then the oven spring is just amazing. If you added water, then you got
an even better rise. What was your final hydration?
All in all, I'd say my experiment proved what I was trying to prove.
I'm glad you like the rolls or buns. They should be substantial enough
to handle BBQ, which is the next test, or a very heavy dose of Italian
cold cuts with vinegar and oil. I've got to get some BBQ going here to
check it out. Yum.
Barry
Barry Harmon
>
> My rolls had great loft. After I shaped them, I flattened them with
> the palm of my hand and left them to rise -- the final baked shape was
> a rounded 4x2 inches. They are very light weight for their size. The
> skin has body, I guess I'd say slightly leathery and the inside is
> tender with body. I had to try them immediately for large burger
> patties. The hinge of the roll stayed intact during eating the
> hamburger (a big plus) and the interior was capable of sopping up the
> juices from the meat and the tomatoes that I use on my sandwich.
> There was no bready taste or smell. I like a hamburger bun with
> substance and typically buy a faux Kaiser roll for hamburgers and
> brats to avoid the icky sweetness and softness of store hamburger
> buns. These rolls are perfect. I will make another batch and freeze
> them in small packs so that I have them available when needed.
> You never said how the solid shortening was incorporated and I assumed
> that it was melted first. I will try to make a sponge as liquid as
> you say. I added quite a bit of water, even after all the flour was
> in and the mixer was running. The 2nd batch of yeast was dissolved in
> 1/4 cup of water and that still didn't make the dough loose enough. I
> was sure that I weighed everything correctly, but you never know. I
> do know the the Wheat Montana flour altered several of my bread
> recipes where the flour was 6 cups, I had to add an additional 2
> ounces of water. The WM flour has no malt or ascorbic acid in it. I
> suppose that I could try the recipe with the Costco bread flour.
> Janet
>
>
>
One other thought. You might try flipping them over onto the baking sheet.
This might give a bit more flat surface on both to and bottom.
Barry
Janet Bostwick
snip
> All in all, I'd say my experiment proved what I was trying to prove.
> I'm glad you like the rolls or buns. They should be substantial
> enough to handle BBQ, which is the next test, or a very heavy dose of
> Italian cold cuts with vinegar and oil. I've got to get some BBQ
> going here to check it out. Yum.
>
> Barry
If the texture/substance of your rolls is similar to what I got, the BBQ and
vinegar and oil and cold cuts should be no problem. I have no idea what the
final hydration was. I just kept on adding more and more water until I got
what I thought it should be. There was nothing scientific about it 'o}
Janet
Janet Bostwick
snip
>
> One other thought. You might try flipping them over onto the baking
> sheet. This might give a bit more flat surface on both to and bottom.
>
> Barry
I happy with them as is. They look just like the 75 cent a piece ones at
the bakery. I mean, really Barry, I am happy, thrilled to have this recipe.
Thanks.
Janet
Nyssa
Just so I know what I might be letting myself in
for, about how many rolls did this recipe make?
Since I'm a singleton, I might want to halve the
recipe so I'm not overwhelmed by enough rolls
to feed a Boy Scout troop.
Nyssa, who has limited freezer space available
as well, so has to limit her surplus
Janet Bostwick
I made 15 and they fit really snug on half sheet pans. 15 rolls only
because I was lazy about precisely weighing them out. I used parchment
paper under them to bake and they came off the pan easily.
Janet
Nyssa
Thanks, Janet, that's just what I needed to
know.
I've got plenty of half-sheet pans and parchment
paper, so it sounds as though I'm good to go.
Nyssa, who is having a rainy day today which
makes it perfect for soup or bread making
Barry Harmon
news:gobnl7$s6q$1...@reader.motzarella.org:
The recipe makes just under 60 ounces. I scaled at 1 1/2 and 3 ounces and
they did well. Janet probably scaled around 4 ounces.
Barry
Janet Bostwick
snip
> This dough should handle like a French bread dough with a bit of
> finesse -- like that? <g> It starts out a bit heavy and gets
> smoother and more fluid as the mixing goes on. After fermentation,
> it seems to handle like a cross between my French and my Italian
> doughs, which is to say a very nice dough to work with. The rising
> gets to almost a triple and then the oven spring is just amazing. If
> you added water, then you got an even better rise. What was your
> final hydration?
>
> All in all, I'd say my experiment proved what I was trying to prove.
> I'm glad you like the rolls or buns. They should be substantial
> enough to handle BBQ, which is the next test, or a very heavy dose of
> Italian cold cuts with vinegar and oil. I've got to get some BBQ
> going here to check it out. Yum.
>
> Barry
I've just started my second batch using Costco/ConAgra bread flour. Using
your weights, I got something similar to a really thick pancake batter( or a
quick bread batter). I added another 3 ounces of water to obtain a less
thick pancake batter but still not thin and runny. My goal today is some
rolls and a pizza crust. More later.
Janet
Janet Bostwick
Report: Next time I make these, I will only add 2 more ounces of water.
The 3 ounces gave me a dough that I am used to working with for lean breads,
but too soft for my current purposes (I think). I followed the rest of the
recipe as written. Make up was one 16-inch pizza crust, one half-sheet pan
with 6 rolls that went into the fridge for overnight, and one cookie sheet
with 4 rolls that I had to bake up tonight. I had no more room in the
fridge for the additional cookie sheet. I made up all the rolls,
immediately refrigerated the one batch, covered and let rise the smaller
batch and then made up the pizza crust. I dressed the raw crust with
toppings and let it rise while I cleaned up the kitchen and loaded the
dishwasher. The pizza was made up on parchment paper on a pizza screen and
baked on a stone. The smaller batch of rolls continued to rise during pizza
makeup, pizza bake and pizza eat. I lowered the temp in the oven to the
temp directed and placed the pan on the stone in the oven and baked for 20
minutes. The rolls just came out of the oven. Great rise and oven spring.
Final size is 5 inches by 2 1/2 inches. The pan of rolls in the fridge
continues to rise in the inflated plastic bag, although considerably slower.
I'll take them out in the morning and decide then whether I will let them
warm and rise for several hours or just bake up in after an hour. All in
all, I am very pleased with the flexibility of this recipe. The pizza crust
was very good, a little bit of rise to it just like the pizza parlor -- I
don't care for ultra thin and crispy. The crust tolerated a boat load of
toppings. I can't give you ounces for individual goods as I just eyeball
and wing that part. Thanks again.
Janaet
Boron Elgar
What do I have to do to get you to take some photos of these wonderful
goodies?
Boron
Janet Bostwick
> On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 19:31:00 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
. The crust
>> tolerated a boat load of toppings. I can't give you ounces for
>> individual goods as I just eyeball and wing that part. Thanks
>> again.
>>
>
> What do I have to do to get you to take some photos of these wonderful
> goodies?
>
> Boron
I thought about it. . .it's such a rigamaroll to get stuff on fotopic. If
the rolls in the fridge work out o.k., maybe I'll do pics of them. I'm
ashamed of the pizza. . .we like the low-class, mega toppings pizza. I
didn't want to be picked on for my bad taste. ;o{ It was pretty good
though.
Janet
Boron Elgar
<nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>Boron Elgar wrote:
>> On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 19:31:00 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
>> <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>snip
>. The crust
>>> tolerated a boat load of toppings. I can't give you ounces for
>>> individual goods as I just eyeball and wing that part. Thanks
>>> again.
>>> Janet
>>>
>>
>> What do I have to do to get you to take some photos of these wonderful
>> goodies?
>>
>> Boron
>
>I thought about it. . .it's such a rigamaroll to get stuff on fotopic.
I use flickr, but it only became easy once I signed up for the paid
version. I think it averages out to about $2 a month.
>If
>the rolls in the fridge work out o.k., maybe I'll do pics of them.
I bet they're purty, too.
>I'm
>ashamed of the pizza. . .we like the low-class, mega toppings pizza. I
>didn't want to be picked on for my bad taste. ;o{ It was pretty good
>though.
>Janet
>
Fancy-ass pizza can be pretty, but I like pizza that takes two hands
to lift off the plate. Bring it on.
Didn't I mention the pizza I made with leftover meat sauce? Oh, yeah.
And that was just the bottom layer.
Boron
Leslie
Couldn't go back in this usenet thread to see the recipe.
How old is the posting of the recipe?
<Odd I can't get to it.>
Can someone please repost it?
Barry Harmon
@aioe.org:
Here it is. It makes a lot, but you can cut it down and still do good.
Barry
I think I've finally nailed hoagie rolls. This recipe makes about 58
ounces of dough.
Sponge: 18 ounces of bread flour, 21 ounces warm water (85F), 1/2
Leslie
news:Xns9BD0EB3AFAC8Bjo...@209.197.15.254:
> Leslie <Leslie...@invalid.invalid> wrote in
Thank you ever so much Barry!