Salt Rising Bread Starter! Zilch!

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Hmmmm...@aol.com

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Sep 4, 2002, 8:35:47 AM9/4/02
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Tried with 1 cup warm milk, 2 T cornmeal(degerminated), 1 t salt, 1 T sugar
. .but nothing happened. I know cornmeal has to be nondegerminated. Then
found some stone-ground, nondegerminated cornmeal, but changed recipes
adding 1 C cornmeal to 1 C scalded milk with 1 t salt and 1 T sugar.

Both mixtures were placed in jar in bath of warm water kept somewhere
between 90 deg. and 120. The second batch kept for 30 hours but never
developed into anything more than cornmeal mush. No bubbles, no nothing.
The milk was skim, but one recipe said that was okay.

Any clues as to why my second batch didn't sour?

Ed B

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Sep 4, 2002, 2:34:21 PM9/4/02
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Are you attempting to start a sourdough culture? You might get more
help at rec.food.sourdough but since your starter recipe is not quite
orthodox you might also get some flak from the regulars. A culture
depends in part on yeast. Salt kills yeast. Perhaps you can try again
without salt. The salt should be added to the bread dough you make from
your starter, not to the starter itself.

--
~)< Love & Peace Ed B.

"Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a
victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; but define yourself."
Harvey Fierstein

Mike Avery

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Sep 4, 2002, 4:27:08 PM9/4/02
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On 4 Sep 2002 at 11:34, Ed B wrote:

> Hmmmm...@aol.com wrote:

> > Tried with 1 cup warm milk, 2 T cornmeal(degerminated), 1 t salt, 1
> > T sugar . .but nothing happened. I know cornmeal has to be
> > nondegerminated. Then found some stone-ground, nondegerminated
> > cornmeal, but changed recipes adding 1 C cornmeal to 1 C scalded
> > milk with 1 t salt and 1 T sugar.

> > Both mixtures were placed in jar in bath of warm water kept
> > somewhere between 90 deg. and 120. The second batch kept for 30
> > hours but never developed into anything more than cornmeal mush. No
> > bubbles, no nothing. The milk was skim, but one recipe said that was
> > okay.

> > Any clues as to why my second batch didn't sour?

> Are you attempting to start a sourdough culture?

No, he's trying to make a salt rising bread. It is vaguely
similar to sourdough in that it uses a wild leaven. However,
it is a very different sort of beast. It requires the salt.

I'd like to offer advice, but I am afraid I can't since I
don't do salt rising.

Mike
--
Mike Avery
MAv...@mail.otherwhen.com
ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0282
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Creditors have much better memories than debtors.

Ed B

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Sep 4, 2002, 7:15:18 PM9/4/02
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Mike Avery wrote:
>
> On 4 Sep 2002 at 11:34, Ed B wrote:
>
> > Hmmmm...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > > Tried with 1 cup warm milk, 2 T cornmeal(degerminated), 1 t salt, 1
> > > T sugar . .but nothing happened. I know cornmeal has to be
> > > nondegerminated. Then found some stone-ground, nondegerminated
> > > cornmeal, but changed recipes adding 1 C cornmeal to 1 C scalded
> > > milk with 1 t salt and 1 T sugar.
>
> > > Both mixtures were placed in jar in bath of warm water kept
> > > somewhere between 90 deg. and 120. The second batch kept for 30
> > > hours but never developed into anything more than cornmeal mush. No
> > > bubbles, no nothing. The milk was skim, but one recipe said that was
> > > okay.
>
> > > Any clues as to why my second batch didn't sour?
>
> > Are you attempting to start a sourdough culture?
>
> No, he's trying to make a salt rising bread. It is vaguely
> similar to sourdough in that it uses a wild leaven. However,
> it is a very different sort of beast. It requires the salt.

Perhaps I would have known that had I read the subject line! :-(

> I'd like to offer advice, but I am afraid I can't since I
> don't do salt rising.
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Avery
> MAv...@mail.otherwhen.com
> ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
> Phone: 970-642-0282
> * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
> way *
>
> A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
> Creditors have much better memories than debtors.

--

Dave J

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Sep 4, 2002, 8:11:34 PM9/4/02
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>Mike A said:

> No, he's trying to make a salt rising bread. It is vaguely
> similar to sourdough in that it uses a wild leaven. However,
> it is a very different sort of beast. It requires the salt.

Supposedly it uses some bacteria (clostridium perfringens)? I don't know
about that, because I thought that was a microbiologically unsafe bacteria
for our health.

> I'd like to offer advice, but I am afraid I can't since I
> don't do salt rising.

I wonder what happened to that different fellow/fellowette Sigurdn? He/she
posted about this, but not one person replied to his posts. Anyway, he had
a link to a salt risen bread. I didn't like the clostridium reference
though.

Good luck,

Dave J in CA


Roy Basan

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Sep 5, 2002, 1:07:31 AM9/5/02
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Hmmmm...@aol.com wrote in message news:<Hmmmmmm968-ya024080...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...

I did try this salt rising type of bread many,many years ago that its
literally almost forgotten.Well as far as I can remember the method;It
is a multistep process like a sourdough,indeed its a rather
temeperamental type of dough;sometimes you are lucky(success)or you
fail in it.I used white corn meal(degerminated) it was placed in a
wide mouthed jar and IIRC scalded milk was poured in it, and the jars
mouth was covered with cloth .The jar was placed in hot water(about
100-120degF) and set aside for six to ten hours.You will notice a sort
of weak hissing sound as gas is produced,and you can smell a distinct
sour smell.
Turn the starter out to a suitably sized mixing bowl;
Then more than half of the required flour was added together with salt
and sugar and some fat(in form of butter) and beaten with whisk until
smooth thick batter is formed which shows some form of
elasticity.Place this bowl in a pan of hot water in order to maintain
the batter temperature at the same level as the starter
preparation(120F) for about three hours.Add the remanining flour and
add enough hot water to form a very soft dough.Beat it with a wooden
spoon until smooth and elastic.It is then poured into a greased bread
pan and dipped again the loaf tin in a pan of warm water (to maintain
warm proofing condition)and allow it to rise for about 2-4 hours.Bake
it at about 380 -400 deg F for 40-60 minutes.

Now going back to your method,I reckon you added salt and sugar
immediately inhibiting the bacterial growth,yet as I seldom do this
salt-rising bread,( I can not confirm from experience )if this is the
reason of your sluggish culture growth ;but possibly it is, because
theoritically the solute effects of combined salt and sugar will tend
to create an osmotic pressure presssing in the bacterial cell
components affecting its growth and multiplication.Unless the microbes
have sufficiently multiplied it is not sensible to expose it to solute
effects.
Some Old folks who talked to me about this bread several years ago,
lamented that even air pollution is making it difficult to make this
bread in the city;and she claimed she was always succesful if she made
it in the country.Again, I cannot confirm her statement, but maybe its
true as this salt rising bread is becoming rarely seen nowadays
specially in urban areas.
I suggest you try preparing the starter with just milk and cornmeal
and carefully maintain the warm temperature during the culture.Good
Luck!
Roy

Fred Hambrecht

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Sep 5, 2002, 2:58:00 AM9/5/02
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Salt Rising Bread
From Mennonite Community Cookbook:

2 large potatoes, sliced
1 teaspoon baking soda
2 tablespoons corn meal
1 cup warm milk
1 1/2 tablespoons salt
1 tablespoon shortening, melted
1 quart boiling water
11 cups flour
1 teaspoon sugar
Pare potatoes and slice thin.
Sprinkle 1 tablespoon salt, the sugar and the corn meal over potatoes.
Add boiling water and stir until salt has dissolved.
Allow mixture to stand at room temperature from noon to the following
morning.
Then drain off liquid. Add to it the soda, remaining salt and 5 cups flour.
Stir until ingredients are well blended; this sponge should be the
consistency of cake batter.
Set mixture in a warm place and let rise until light and full of bubbles.
This requires about 1 1/2 hours.
Scald milk and cool to lukewarm; add shortening.
Add milk and remaining flour to sponge.
Kneed for 10 to 12 minutes and shape into loaves.
Let rise until light
Bake at 350o for 1 hour. Delicious!


I. Cornmeal Salt-Rising Bread
Three 5 x 9-inch Loaves

Measure into a large jar or bowl:

1/2 cup fresh coarse white stone-ground cornmeal
1 tablespoon sugar
Scald and pour over the cornmeal:

1 cup milk
Let stand overnight or longer, covered, in a warm place, 90o to 95o, until
it ferments. By then it would be light and have a number of small cracks
over the surface. If it isn't light in texture, it is useless to proceed, as
the bread will not rise properly.

Scald:

3 cups milk
Pour it over:

2 tablespoons sugar
5 tablespoons lard
1 tablespoon salt
Stir in:

3 1/2 cups sifted all-purpose flour
Stir in the corn mixture. Place bowl containing these ingredients in a pan
of warm water for 1 to 2 hours, until bubbles work up from the bottom. Keep
water warm this full length of time.

Stir in:

5 cups sifted all-purpose flour
Kneed in until smooth, but not stiff, about:

2 1/2 cups sifted all-purpose flour
Place dough in greased pans, cover and let rise until it has doubled in
bulk. Watch it for if it gets too high, it may sour, Preheat the oven to
400o and bake the bread 10 minutes.

Reduce the heat to 350o and bake 25 to 30 minutes more. Test for doneness,
then cool on a rack

II. Potato Salt-Rising Bread
Three 5 x 9-inch Loaves

A fan, trapped by her grandchild's measles, sent us a treatise on lessening
the fantastic odors of "salt-rising," She says, "Use non-mealy 21/2-inch
diameter new red-skinned potatoes for the starter. Place them in a stainless
steel bowl. Set bowl in water in an electric Dutch oven with heat maintained
at about 90o to 95o. Perfect results are produced in 15 hours and with only
a mild odor--like that of good Italian cheese." As we lived for some years
in an apartment with a salt-rising bread addict and shared the endless
variety of smells she produced, we would settle any day for a mild cheese
aroma.

Pare, then cut into thin slices:

2 1/2 cups new non-mealy potatoes
Sprinkle over them:

1 tablespoon salt
2 tablespoons sugar
2 tablespoons white cornmeal
Add and stir until salt is dissolved:

4 cups boiling water
Let the potato mixture stand, covered with a cloth, 15 hours. Now squeeze
out the potatoes. Discard them. Drain the liquid into a bowl and add,
stirring until well blended:

1 teaspoon baking soda
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
5 cups sifted all-purpose flour
Beat and beat "until the arm rebels." Set the sponge in a warm place to rise
until light. Bubbles should come to the surface and the sponge should
increase its volume by approximately a third. This will take about 1 1/2
hours.

Scald:

1 cup milk
When lukewarm, add:

2 tablespoons butter
Add this mixture to the potato sponge with:

5-6 cups sifted all-purpose flour
Kneed dough about 10 minutes before shaping it into 3 loaves. Place in
greased pans. Let rise, covered, until light and not quite doubled in bulk.
Bake in a preheated 350o oven about 1 hour.

"Roy Basan" <rba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:95b037df.02090...@posting.google.com...

Tim

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Sep 5, 2002, 5:24:35 AM9/5/02
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Try this one

T im

SALT-RISING BREAD
? 3 medium potatoes
? 1 teaspoon salt
? 1 teaspoon sugar
? 3 tablespoons cornmeal
? 4 cups boiling water
? 2 cups lukewarm milk
? 1/8 teaspoon baking soda
? 1/8 teaspoon salt
? 2 tablespoons melted shortening
? 1 cup water
? Flour
Pare and slice potatoes and add 1 teaspoon salt, the sugar, cornmeal and
boiling water. Wrap bowl in heavy cloth. Cover and allow to stand in warm
place overnight.
In the morning, remove the potatoes. Add remaining ingredients with
sufficient flour to make a stiff dough. Knead until smooth and elastic. Form
into loaves. Let rise until double. Bake at 400 degrees for 45 minutes.
-- Mimi Cecil, East Lansing


Hmmmm...@aol.com

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Sep 5, 2002, 7:53:50 AM9/5/02
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In article <Wixd9.10840$jG2.7...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,

"Dave J" <theb...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> Supposedly it uses some bacteria (clostridium perfringens)? I don't know
> about that, because I thought that was a microbiologically unsafe bacteria
> for our health.
>

That may be the reason it's impossible to find in deli bakeries. And why I
was attempting to make it. If successful I don't plan on making it a part
of my daily diet. Just want one more taste. Tks

Hmmmm...@aol.com

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Sep 5, 2002, 8:00:03 AM9/5/02
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Thanks Roy, I'll try holding back the salt, but I noticed you made yours
with white degerminated cornmeal. There are some who say that degerminated
cornmeal won't work. My first batch of starter was attempted with white
degerminated--nothing happened. But it may have been the salt. Or I'm
beginning to believe the city air.


In article <95b037df.02090...@posting.google.com>,
rba...@hotmail.com (Roy Basan) wrote:

>. . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ,indeed its a rather


> temeperamental type of dough;sometimes you are lucky(success)or you
> fail in it.I used white corn meal(degerminated)

( . . . . .)

Hmmmm...@aol.com

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Sep 5, 2002, 8:01:51 AM9/5/02
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Thanks Mimi and Fred. I'll try the potato recipes in hopes of turning out
one decent loaf.

Sigurdn

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Sep 5, 2002, 9:59:19 PM9/5/02
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Gents:

Clostridium perfringens is the leavening agent in Salt-Rising Bread.
I have had population counts and DNA analyses run on my SRB starters
and bread. Though the population can reach 1.6 billion bacterial
colony forming units per milliliter in a cheese-based starter,
perfringens population in the bread is below the detection limit of 4
CFU/g.

A number of bakeries offer salt-rising bread. One of the oldest is
the Dutchmaid Bakery in Tracy, TN, which has been at it since 1902.

In my experience, potato-based starters fail more often than they
succeed. The Bruce and American Heritage starters of my earlier
posting seldom fail when boiling water and salt is used to suppress
yeast, and never fail when a fraction of a Campden tablet is
substituted for salt.

If you want a complete discussion of salt-rising bread, find a copy of
Petits Propos Culinaires No. 70 and read my article.

Sigurdn

Dave J

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Sep 6, 2002, 2:28:55 PM9/6/02
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"Sigurdn" <rnie...@downeastme.com> wrote in message
news:d16be302.02090...@posting.google.com...

> Gents:
>
> Clostridium perfringens is the leavening agent in Salt-Rising Bread.
> I have had population counts and DNA analyses run on my SRB starters
> and bread. Though the population can reach 1.6 billion bacterial
> colony forming units per milliliter in a cheese-based starter,
> perfringens population in the bread is below the detection limit of 4
> CFU/g.

Sigurdn! There you are. Thanks for the response. That is some pretty
specific info you have there. Sounds like there is no need for concern.

> If you want a complete discussion of salt-rising bread, find a copy of
> Petits Propos Culinaires No. 70 and read my article.

How may we find this without having to search. Some direction? Thank you
in advance.

Dave J in CA


Sigurdn

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Sep 6, 2002, 9:35:47 PM9/6/02
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I thought PPC was more widely distributed in the U.S. than is
apparently the case.

It is published by Prospect Books which has a Web site at
http://www.kal69.dial.pipex.com
They also have a U.S. agent from whom materials can be obtained. His
name, e-mail address, telephone number, etc. are listed on the Web
site.

Sigurdn


"Dave J" <theb...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<Ht6e9.1649$1C2.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

Roy Basan

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Sep 7, 2002, 1:15:30 AM9/7/02
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"Dave J" <theb...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<Ht6e9.1649$1C2.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>
>
> How may we find this without having to search. Some direction? Thank you
> in advance.
>
> Dave J in CA

Dave there is an informative article about salt rising bread that also
includes some scientific explanation about it here:
http://web.mountain.net/%7Epetsonk/breadtext.html#br
Somehow I am still a bit doubtful if its the same organism that is
widely known to causes food poisoning as well:
http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap11.html
As far as I remember in my previous experience with salt rising bread
the starter has a sour smell in it,and what came to my mind before
;maybe it belongs to the same specie as the sourdough bacteria.

Roy

Sigurdn

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Sep 7, 2002, 9:40:06 AM9/7/02
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rba...@hotmail.com (Roy Basan) wrote in message news:<95b037df.02090...@posting.google.com>...

When Susan Ray Brown (proprietor of the first URL above) submitted her
starter for analysis of perfringens and lactobacilli, tests revealed a
higher proportion of lactobacilli than perfringens. Perfringens
numbers were in the millions of cfu/ml as I recall. Neither Susan nor
I have tested for yeasts because, insofar as we can, we kill and
suppress all yeasts in our SRB starters.

My sourdough baker friends are adamant in declaring a yeast other than
Saccharomyces cereviseie (sp?) to be active in their starters.

If Roy can follow-up his hunches with experiments confirming presence
of a yeast in salt-rising bread, he will enlarge knowledge in all of
us.

Sigurdn

Dave J

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Sep 7, 2002, 3:51:46 PM9/7/02
to
Roy, Sigurdn,

Thanks for the help, I think Hmmmm...@aol.com has the info needed, and I
know more than I did before about salt rising bread. Thank you.

Dave J in Ca


Sigurdn

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Sep 7, 2002, 9:28:11 PM9/7/02
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rba...@hotmail.com (Roy Basan) wrote in message news:<95b037df.02090...@posting.google.com>...
> "Dave J" <theb...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<Ht6e9.1649$1C2.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> > Dave J in CA
>
> Dave there is an informative article about salt rising bread that also
> includes some scientific explanation about it here:
> http://web.mountain.net/%7Epetsonk/breadtext.html#br
> Somehow I am still a bit doubtful if its the same organism that is
> widely known to causes food poisoning as well:
> http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap11.html
> As far as I remember in my previous experience with salt rising bread
> the starter has a sour smell in it,and what came to my mind before
> ;maybe it belongs to the same specie as the sourdough bacteria.
>
> Roy

I attempted to post this note day before yesterday and it seems to be
lost in cyberspace.

Susan Ray Brown, proprietor of the first URL above, submitted her SRB
starter for perfringens and lactobacilli analysis. While perfringens
was near a million cfu/ml, lactobacilli had an even greater
population. Neither Susan nor I have had analyses done for yeasts.
Our recipes are calculated to kill and suppress all yeasts. I have
demonstrated to myself that 1/4 Campden kills common bread yeast quite
effectively. Beer and wine yeasts are also killed when relatively
small ratios of Campden are used (one or two tablets in five gallons
of product).


My sourdough baker friends are adamant in declaring that their
starters depend upon a yeast other than Saccharomyces cerevesea (sp?).

If Roy can follow-up his hunches with experimental confirmation that a
yeast is active in SRB, we will all become more knowledgeable.

Sigurdn

Roy Basan

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Sep 9, 2002, 12:45:26 AM9/9/02
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n98...@panax.com (Sigurdn) wrote in message news:<1b5d5513.02090...@posting.google.com>...

>
>
>
> My sourdough baker friends are adamant in declaring that their
> starters depend upon a yeast other than Saccharomyces cerevesea (sp?).
>
> If Roy can follow-up his hunches with experimental confirmation that a
> yeast is active in SRB, we will all become more knowledgeable.
>
> Sigurdn

As far as I remember from my earliest experience ,the behaviour of
these salt rising bread organism does not exhibit the characteristic
trait of the bakers yeast.It looks more the effect of bacteria.As
these SRB system were unpredictable in my previous trials, it did not
get me seriously interested with it then.
Now that it is confirmed that it contains a clostridium strain
anaerobe(which is known to cause food poisoning).I will keep away my
baking hand from it,until a capable bacteriologist can explain to
me in detail the difference between this SRB bacteria and the
undesirable C.perfringens.
Roy
Roy

Sigurdn

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Sep 10, 2002, 2:09:20 PM9/10/02
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rba...@hotmail.com (Roy Basan) wrote in message news:<95b037df.02090...@posting.google.com>...
> n98...@panax.com (Sigurdn) wrote in message news:<1b5d5513.02090...@posting.google.com>...

> Now that it is confirmed that it contains a clostridium strain


> anaerobe(which is known to cause food poisoning).I will keep away my
> baking hand from it,until a capable bacteriologist can explain to
> me in detail the difference between this SRB bacteria and the
> undesirable C.perfringens.

Fear not, Roy. An H.A.Kohman identified C.perfringens as the active
SRB agent in the 1900s. He also devised the so-called "yeast" that
King Arthur Flour and others now distribute.

Millions of loaves of SRB must have been made using Kohman's yeast.
There is no available report that anyone suffered from eating the SRB.

and...@gmail.com

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May 1, 2020, 12:17:31 PM5/1/20
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Have tried many recipes and failed. Until I used a small crock with a water temp of 110....it work beautifully.

Boron Elgar

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May 1, 2020, 1:04:06 PM5/1/20
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On Fri, 1 May 2020 09:17:30 -0700 (PDT), and...@gmail.com wrote:

>Have tried many recipes and failed. Until I used a small crock with a water temp of 110....it work beautifully.

Never tried one like this. How about some info and instructions, if
you have the time, please.
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