Kaiser rolls
Barry Harmon
that before, right?
I started with Peter Reinhart's recipe from BBA and worked it a bit.
Here's what I came up with. It makes a big batch, but you can cut it
down and it'll still work. I just make a lot because I have several
friends who like my bread and I like making both big batches and people
happy. This recipe makes 22 rolls at 3.75 ounces pre-bake.
Sponge:
25 ounces bread flour, 24 ounces warm water, 1/2 ounce dry yeast.
Mix up, let stand covered in a warm place for a two hours. This thing
will triple! Give it plenty of room.
Dough:
All the sponge
1 ounce salt
25.5 ounces bread flour (total 50 1/2 ounces)
1/2 ounce diastatic malt powdeer
1 ounce malt syrup
2 large eggs
Weigh the eggs out of the shell and add oil to get to 7.25 ounces total
for the eggs and oil.
This is a 64% hydration: 50.5 ounces flour and 32.25 ounces liquids.
Mix this up, then knead for 10 minutes. You will have a soft dough that
is just slightly sticky.
Put the dough to ferment. Reinhart's technique here is a bit tricky.
Ferment for 2 hours. If the dough doubles before 2 hours, then fold the
dough and let it continue fermenting for the full two hours.
My dough doubled twice. Must be something in the air in Jersey.
Divide into 3.75 ounce portions, round them a bit and let them rest for
10 minutes. I use the pinch to the bottom technique like I do for a
boule.
Shaping. either flatten them a bit and cut them with a kaiser roll
cutter or form into a very long strand and tie an overhand knot, then
continue to curl the strands through the opening and around the dough,
pinching the end together and tucking it inside the center.
A cutter is better, but the knotting works well, too.
I've tried the method in George Greenstein "Secrets of a Jewish Baker"
and I can't get the hang of it.
Place the rolls cut side down on a lightly floured or oiled surface and
allow to rise for 45 mintues. Flip the rolls over and let rise for
another 40-45 mintues. They will double or triple.
Heat oven to 425F.
Spray the tops of the rolls with water, sprinkle with seeds if you wish,
and put the rolls in the oven.
Spray the oven with water and bake 10 minutes.
Turn the oven down to 400F and bake another 10-15 minutes, until the
rolls are golden brown and 200F internal temp.
Remove from oven and let cool before eating. (As if that'll happen.)
These make qonderful rolls for blue cheese bacon burgers. Make a batch
of thin home fries and you're livin'. Until the arteries call it quits.
Boron Elgar
wrote:
>After several attempts, I think I've nailed Kaiser rolls. But I've said
>that before, right?
>
>I started with Peter Reinhart's recipe from BBA and worked it a bit.
>
>Here's what I came up with. It makes a big batch, but you can cut it
>down and it'll still work. I just make a lot because I have several
>friends who like my bread and I like making both big batches and people
>happy. This recipe makes 22 rolls at 3.75 ounces pre-bake.
>
Ahhh, a recipe I am always looking to perfect...
Tell me - how to these turn out? The Kaiser Grail I seek makes a thin
crust that almost shatters and has a soft interior.
As always,. thanks for all your work, Barry.
Boron
Barry Harmon
news:cvm2k6dv6u4q27862...@4ax.com:
Well, I gotta say there are a couple of things I still have to work on.
The crust was almost shatteringly good. I have to figure a way to get the
crust to stay REALLY thin and dry out completely. I'm about 90-95% of the
way there. There were some flakes when I cut into them and when we were
eating them, so I'm close.
The interior is also almost perfect.
I forgot to smash the rolls down a bit, or rather I didn't realize I should
have. Next time, I'll make sure to press the rolls down after I place them
for rise. I think doing it after I flip them midway through should do it.
I know I can move ciabatta from the couche to the oven and although they
deflate a bit, they come right back, so these should come back, too.
My next batch I'll make at 66%, just to see what happens. That might give
me a bit larger holes in the crumb, too.
However, considering the cannonballs I used to make and call Kaiser rolls,
this is darn close to the holy grail.
If you make some tweeks and they work, please post them; this is a bread
that more people should be aware of and make.
Barry
Boron Elgar
wrote:
>Boron Elgar <boron...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>news:cvm2k6dv6u4q27862...@4ax.com:
>
>> On 27 Jan 2011 03:57:01 GMT, Barry Harmon <john...@optonline.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>After several attempts, I think I've nailed Kaiser rolls. But I've said
>>>that before, right?
>>
>> Tell me - how to these turn out? The Kaiser Grail I seek makes a thin
>> crust that almost shatters and has a soft interior.
>>
>>
>
>Well, I gotta say there are a couple of things I still have to work on.
>
>The crust was almost shatteringly good. I have to figure a way to get the
>crust to stay REALLY thin and dry out completely. I'm about 90-95% of the
>way there. There were some flakes when I cut into them and when we were
>eating them, so I'm close.
>
>The interior is also almost perfect.
>
>I forgot to smash the rolls down a bit, or rather I didn't realize I should
>have. Next time, I'll make sure to press the rolls down after I place them
>for rise. I think doing it after I flip them midway through should do it.
>I know I can move ciabatta from the couche to the oven and although they
>deflate a bit, they come right back, so these should come back, too.
>
>My next batch I'll make at 66%, just to see what happens. That might give
>me a bit larger holes in the crumb, too.
>
>However, considering the cannonballs I used to make and call Kaiser rolls,
>this is darn close to the holy grail.
>
>If you make some tweeks and they work, please post them; this is a bread
>that more people should be aware of and make.
>
>Barry
My tweaking path will likely be with done sourdough and that, I think,
is what has caused my problem with a thicker, chewier crust than I
prefer for the rolls.
Perhaps I will stay on the straight and narrow and just use yeast, but
you know how dreadful I am...I look at the recipe and then instead of
intelligently following it, even the first time, I meander a bit here
and there.
Did you hand form these or use a cutter? I never got around to buying
the cutter from Bridge Kitchenware.
Boron
Boron Elgar
wrote:
>After several attempts, I think I've nailed Kaiser rolls. But I've said
>that before, right?
>
Ok...I started the preferment. I have no malt syrup, though. I'll use
molasses or brown sugar.
This is a wonderful benefit to working at home after the snowstorm
last night.
Boron
Barry Harmon
Meander a "bit?" Please! lol
The cutter ws a great buy, like $5. I've got an order in for a plastic
rosette cutter, but I've just about given up on that one. The metal
rosette cutter is $40 or so, but I've used an apple corer and gotten
pretty good results. I have a friend in Australia who was going to
order one for me from Italy, but it would have cost an arm and a leg to
get it from Italy to NJ. Maybe a shop in Little Italy in NYC?
I used both methods, the cutter and Reinhart's tying method.
The cutter gave excellent results. If you get one, don't be afraid to
cut all the way through; the dough will heal itself.
The tying method was interesting. It's on page 82 of BBA. In essence,
you tie an overhand in the dough and then loop the ends through the
interior loop of the knot several times, wrapping the ends around the
overhand loop, and then pinch the ends closed.
Tying a roll like this seemed as though it should work, and it did. The
rolls come out a bit gnarley, but they're acceptable as Kaiser rolls;
sort of like a bumpy Kaiser. The picture of the ready to rise rolls on
page 177 shows them as they are. You can even get the number of lobes
you want by adjusting the number of loops/wraps you do on the knot.
As I said, I've tried the Greenstein method and just can't make it work
for me. It wouldn't surprise me if the instructions in "Jewish Baker"
didn't have a missing step or two. I've had a lot of experieince with
rope and knots and the instructions don't make sense -- I can't get from
the instructions to the picture to the finished rolls. Of course, it
could be that I've got a mental block on this.
I wonder if it's even possible to make something this ephemeral with
sourdough. As far as I know, the Kaiser roll is an ever shorter-lived
bread than a baguette; it's all about a thin, crisp, flaky crust and a
soft, airy interior, not about keeping qualities or longevity.
I'll give it a try, but I think it's doomed to failure, just from the
nature of the materials and the process.
Barry
Boron Elgar
wrote:
>Boron Elgar <boron...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>
>> My tweaking path will likely be with done sourdough and that, I think,
>> is what has caused my problem with a thicker, chewier crust than I
>> prefer for the rolls.
>>
>> Perhaps I will stay on the straight and narrow and just use yeast, but
>> you know how dreadful I am...I look at the recipe and then instead of
>> intelligently following it, even the first time, I meander a bit here
>> and there.
>>
>
>Meander a "bit?" Please! lol
>
>I used both methods, the cutter and Reinhart's tying method.
>
>The cutter gave excellent results. If you get one, don't be afraid to
>cut all the way through; the dough will heal itself.
>Tying a roll like this seemed as though it should work, and it did.
Well, I used a modified method that I had seen on YouTube. Flatten the
dough into rounds, then gather it up, side to middle, almost as one
would make a filled dumpling. It makes perfectly Kaiser shaped dough
lumps, which vanish in the oven spring, often with humorously
distorted results. I am not anywhere near "there" with the shaping.
I also tried the tying method. I abandoned that one immediately
>
>I wonder if it's even possible to make something this ephemeral with
>sourdough. As far as I know, the Kaiser roll is an ever shorter-lived
>bread than a baguette; it's all about a thin, crisp, flaky crust and a
>soft, airy interior, not about keeping qualities or longevity.
I followed your recipe pretty much (which is probably as close as I
ever, ever do, so you get that blue ribbon). Yes, I meandered...I
tossed in about a cup of starter into the preferment. It had been
sitting in the fridge for a week, still had some gluten strength, but
I am sure it added nothing other than a bit of flavor depth, if that.
The dry yeast was the master here. Oh..KA bread flour. Is strong like
ox.
As I mentioned, I did not have any malt syrup, so used molasses and I
am thinking that might have been a mistake. It colored the dough a
bit. This was heady molasses.
And I had only extra large eggs. That, too, may have had an effect.
The dough was wonderful to work with. I loved playing with it, which
one really needs to do if one winds up with so many rolls. I did these
at 3 ounces.
The rolls are delicious. I say this wholeheartedly, everyone has been
scarfing them, but the crust, though crisp on top, soon became
rather soft on the sides and bottom when out of the oven....this
happened within minutes on the rack. My guess is the eggs...a drop too
much, perhaps, so the crust wound up with a bit of a brioche feel on
the sides and bottom - not exactly, but not shattery at all. In fact,
I baked the 2nd batch of them longer, getting them a deeper shade in
hopes of a crispier outcome.
They made for a great dinner sandwich and took well to bacon and egg.
I am very happy that they are so tasty, and have no objections to the
outcome insofar as that, but I still seek the krispy-kaiser, dang it
all.
Any ideas of how I wound up with soft sides and bottom -no exercise
jokes, please:)?
Here it all is:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25648800@N04/sets/72157625921107212/
>
>I'll give it a try, but I think it's doomed to failure, just from the
>nature of the materials and the process.
We'll talk after the next batch...though I think it's scones this
weekend.
Boron
Barry Harmon
go for an all around higher temperature.
The batch I made was (ere?) at 64%. next step is to 66 or 68. Now
Reinhard't recipe figures out at about 74%. but his instructions
"Knead for about 10 mintues (6 minutes by machine), adding flour, if
needed, to make a dough that is soft and supple, tacky but not sticky.)
I gotta tell you, 74% woudn't do that in a zillion years.
He starts baking at 425F and drops to 400F after 10 mintues.
I'm thinking more in terms of 450F for the whole time.
Greenstein bakes at 425F for the whole time.
Reinhart sprays the tops of the rolls and the inside of the oven.
Greenstein pours 2 cups of water into a heated roasting pan and says to add
more water after 10 minutes baking. This is getting into a gray area
between a dry oven and boiling bagels!?
Maybe the next batch should be 68% hydration, baked at 425F and with a lot
of water in the oven pan.
Of course changing three variables at once means it'll be difficult to tell
which cured the problem. In spite of what a professor of psychological
statistics once posited in class.
What doyou think?
Barry
Boron Elgar
wrote:
>As I said, I'm going tro try a batch at a higher hydration. I might also
>go for an all around higher temperature.
>
>The batch I made was (ere?) at 64%. next step is to 66 or 68. Now
>Reinhard't recipe figures out at about 74%. but his instructions
>
>"Knead for about 10 mintues (6 minutes by machine), adding flour, if
>needed, to make a dough that is soft and supple, tacky but not sticky.)
The dough was very soft and pliable., but not so sticky that it could
not be handled easily. I used the Electrolux to mix it all. Once it
was proofing, I did a couple of stretch and folds.
The big diff for me was working all the way with a room temp dough. I
always, always, always, overnight my doughs in the fridge.
>
>I gotta tell you, 74% woudn't do that in a zillion years.
I added in some water and the starter I included was at 100%, so I
probably wound up with a a hydration above yours, although nowhere
near 74%. My dabbling does not allow for much accuracy in hydration
calcs, I'm afraid.
>
>He starts baking at 425F and drops to 400F after 10 mintues.
>
>I'm thinking more in terms of 450F for the whole time.
>
>Greenstein bakes at 425F for the whole time.
I kept to 425F the whole bake, turning the pans twice.
>
>Reinhart sprays the tops of the rolls and the inside of the oven.
>
>Greenstein pours 2 cups of water into a heated roasting pan and says to add
>more water after 10 minutes baking. This is getting into a gray area
>between a dry oven and boiling bagels!?
I used a spritzer, first to coat the tops so the seed would adhere,
then to spray the rolls several times during the first 5-7 minutes.
This likely lowered the temp of the oven a bit, but this oven recovers
quickly. There was considerable oven spring.
Oh...Total rise time after shaping was no more than an hour. These
things were too active to go beyond that. No regrets at that choice.
>
>Maybe the next batch should be 68% hydration, baked at 425F and with a lot
>of water in the oven pan.
>
>Of course changing three variables at once means it'll be difficult to tell
>which cured the problem. In spite of what a professor of psychological
>statistics once posited in class.
>
>What doyou think?
I think you can keep the higher heat. I got some nice blisters on the
rolls and had no trouble with the bake itself. The interior was not
very holey, but was, to my eye, perfect - not dense at all.
I will probably not make these again for awhile, so will benefit from
any experiments you perform meanwhile. I have 2 dozen rolls in the
freezer right now and will go onto something else this weekend.
Barry Harmon
I checked my books (and I do mean ALL of them) and the only other recipe
I could find was in Joe Ortiz's "Village Baker," pages 182-3. My notes
say I baked these on August 4, 2001. No indication of how they turned
out, but since I didn't make them again, I probably didn't like them.
He works in cup measure, so it's difficult to tell what's going on, at
least for me and my anal-retentive mind, He uses a 2 hour sponge.
Somewhere in these recipes we should be able to find truth, justice and
a crispy Kaiser roll.
Ingredients
Sponge
1 1/2 teaspoons dry yest
1/4 cup warm water
2 tesapoons sugar
1/2 teasponns malt extract or honey (calling Roo.)
1/2 cup scalded and cooled milk
1 1/2 cups flour
1/2 cup cool water
2 hours in a warm place
Dough
1 1/2 teasoons salt
1 cup flour
Sponge
Knead to form a "medium firm" dough, adding up to 1/2 cup flour to
achieve this. When the dough is soft and satiny, ferment it.
Ferment until doubled, 1 to 1 1/4 hours.
***** Here's where it gets interesting
Place the rolls on a cookie sheet lined with parchment paper. Brush
them lightly with vegetable oil and cover them with another piece of
parchment paper, a cookie sheet and then a cast-iron skillet.
Let the rolls rise for between 35 and 40 minutes. They will almost
double in size, although they will be flat from the weight of the tray
on top.
Remove the skillet, cookie sheet and parchment paper from the top of the
rolls. Brush them lightly with water and then sprinkle with poppy
seeds. (My notes say to let the rolls rise for 10-15 minutes to puff up
a bit once the weight of the world is removed from them.)
Just before placing the rolls in a preheated 450F oven, use an atomizer
to spray water inside the oven 5 or 6 times and spray again at 5-minute
intervals while the rolls are baking. The rolls will be a light golden
color and baked through in 20 minutes. The crust should be very crisp.
Barry
Boron Elgar
wrote:
No fats. No eggs. That might keep it crispy, but most Kaiser recipes I
have seen use both.
I wonder, too, if there are different "ideals" for Kaiser rolls out
there and that the recipes we find reflect these differences.
Another take on it all is here at the Fresh Loaf. Interesting article
and recipe, suing the same dough for both Kaisers and onion rolls, but
varying it with shaping, proofing and steam baking.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/9877/march-3-should-be-tfl-holiday
Boron
Dick Margulis
>
> Well, I gotta say there are a couple of things I still have to work on.
You mentioned that you have whole eggs in the dough. Try using just
eggwhites instead.
Barry Harmon
news:LI6dndLbXKwGpt7Q...@supernews.com:
Interesting. What's the rationale?
Barry
John
wrote:
>
>Somewhere in these recipes we should be able to find truth, justice and
>a crispy Kaiser roll.
>
>Ingredients
>
>Sponge
>1 1/2 teaspoons dry yest
>1/4 cup warm water
>2 tesapoons sugar
>1/2 teasponns malt extract or honey (calling Roo.)
>1/2 cup scalded and cooled milk
>1 1/2 cups flour
>1/2 cup cool water
>
>2 hours in a warm place
>
>Dough
>
>1 1/2 teasoons salt
>1 cup flour
>Sponge
>
>
>Knead to form a "medium firm" dough, adding up to 1/2 cup flour to
>achieve this. When the dough is soft and satiny, ferment it.
>
>Ferment until doubled, 1 to 1 1/4 hours.
>
Barry
Could you tell me if your sponge formula is correct, normally as I
believe sponge only uses small amount yeast, water and flour, the rest
of the ingredients you include when you make up the dough.
John
Barry Harmon
news:5uk6k69jq05p4jpso...@4ax.com:
That's what it says in the book.
But then again, I have some severe reservations about this book.
Barry
Dick Margulis
Better loft, drier crumb, and I've been told that's what's traditional.
Barry Harmon
Okay, that goes on the list of things to try.
So I would use egg white for the full weight that is supposed to be eggs,
like 4 or 5 ounces.
Barry
Dick Margulis
> Dick Margulis<marg...@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:t8ydndXdJ_CELNnQ...@supernews.com:
>
>> On 1/28/2011 5:21 PM, Barry Harmon wrote:
>>> Dick Margulis<marg...@comcast.net> wrote in
>>> news:LI6dndLbXKwGpt7Q...@supernews.com:
>>>
>>>> On 1/27/2011 8:59 AM, Barry Harmon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I gotta say there are a couple of things I still have to
>>>>> work on.
>>>>
>>>> You mentioned that you have whole eggs in the dough. Try using just
>>>> eggwhites instead.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting. What's the rationale?
>>>
>>> Barry
>>
>> Better loft, drier crumb, and I've been told that's what's
>> traditional.
>>
>
> Okay, that goes on the list of things to try.
>
> So I would use egg white for the full weight that is supposed to be eggs,
> like 4 or 5 ounces.
>
> Barry
Yes, that would be the thing to test. Otherwise you'd have to fiddle
with the hydration too much.
graham
"Dick Margulis" <marg...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:bpednS3BG8lBwtjQ...@supernews.com...
And you can use the yolks to make a crème anglaise.
Graham
Dick Margulis
>>
>
> And you can use the yolks to make a cr�me anglaise.
> Graham
>
>
Well, no, that wouldn't be the thing to do if you were using the whites
in Kaiser rolls. The thing to with the yolks in that circumstance would
be to add them to the Challah.
However, in commercial bakeries, for many decades now, egg whites have
been available for purchase separately. So it's not really a problem for
the baker.
graham
> On 1/30/2011 9:25 AM, graham wrote:
>
>>>
>>
>> Graham
>>
>>
>
> Well, no, that wouldn't be the thing to do if you were using the whites in
> Kaiser rolls. The thing to with the yolks in that circumstance would be to
> add them to the Challah.
>
> However, in commercial bakeries, for many decades now, egg whites have
> been available for purchase separately. So it's not really a problem for
> the baker.
>
saffron. Is this traditional?
Graham
Boron Elgar
>
>"Dick Margulis" <marg...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:tY6dnfNObNcRMdjQ...@supernews.com...
>> On 1/30/2011 9:25 AM, graham wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> And you can use the yolks to make a cr�me anglaise.
>>> Graham
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well, no, that wouldn't be the thing to do if you were using the whites in
>> Kaiser rolls. The thing to with the yolks in that circumstance would be to
>> add them to the Challah.
>>
>> However, in commercial bakeries, for many decades now, egg whites have
>> been available for purchase separately. So it's not really a problem for
>> the baker.
>>
>Point taken! Incidentally, I have a recipe for Challah that incorporates
>saffron. Is this traditional?
>Graham
>
Not unheard of, but not typical or of any specific tradition as far as
I know. It is just one of many "dress-up" challah variations.
A friend from Europe said that after the war it was easier to get
saffron than eggs at times and they would use the saffron to make the
challah look as if it had eggs. Same workaround was used with cakes.
Boron
graham
"Boron Elgar" <boron...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:30fbk65gluaee7noo...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 12:27:29 -0700, "graham" <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Dick Margulis" <marg...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>news:tY6dnfNObNcRMdjQ...@supernews.com...
>>> On 1/30/2011 9:25 AM, graham wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Graham
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, no, that wouldn't be the thing to do if you were using the whites
>>> in
>>> Kaiser rolls. The thing to with the yolks in that circumstance would be
>>> to
>>> add them to the Challah.
>>>
>>> However, in commercial bakeries, for many decades now, egg whites have
>>> been available for purchase separately. So it's not really a problem for
>>> the baker.
>>>
>>Point taken! Incidentally, I have a recipe for Challah that incorporates
>>saffron. Is this traditional?
>>Graham
>>
> Not unheard of, but not typical or of any specific tradition as far as
> I know. It is just one of many "dress-up" challah variations.
>
> A friend from Europe said that after the war it was easier to get
> saffron than eggs at times and they would use the saffron to make the
> challah look as if it had eggs. Same workaround was used with cakes.
>
> Boron
>
have any effect on the color. Supermarket eggs are sooooo pale.
Graham
Boron Elgar
The color is affected by feed, not just the range of the hens.
Boron