Twice As Cold as Zero
Doug Chinnock
Physics hasn't been able to cool anything quite this cold.
Twice this cold is still 0 K.
Edward Best
"Today it is zero degrees, tomorrow it will be twice as cold. How cold will
it be?
This has turned into a debate with no one able to agree. I say the answer
is zero degrees.
Any inputs?
Ed
foamy
Is the " zero " degrees C or F ?
Jim
foamy
The poster never said the " zero " was K.
Jim
bob jenkins
>
>It all started with a quote at the end of my auto-signature:
>
>"Today it is zero degrees, tomorrow it will be twice as cold. How cold will
>it be?
>
>This has turned into a debate with no one able to agree. I say the answer
>is zero degrees.
>
>Any inputs?
>
>Ed
>
>
Is this a physics question, or a math question?
If it's a physics question, nothing can be "twice as cold" as anything else.
Something could, however, be 1/2 as warm. Then, measuring from 0 degrees
Kelvin, to your 0 (in whatever scale you are using -- F, C, or K -- why isn't
there a "U" scale?), you can easily calculate "1/2 as warm".
If it's a math question, you are correct. 2 * 0 = 0 (at least for most
mathematical systems).
TommyTheCat
tomorrow it will be twice as hot", you know that tomorrow will be 40
degrees--because you use zero as a baseline. You can double zero, but it's
still zero.
Edward Best wrote in message <78raa1$n...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
Tony Ventura
temperature at all, which is of course incorrect. Twice as cold would be the
same thing as half as warm. If we were dealing with the Celsius scale, 0
degrees is equal to 273 degrees Kelvin. Half as warm would be 136.5 degrees
Kelvin, mathematically speaking. However, if we were talking about what
temperature would feel twice as cold to a living organism, then there are
different mechanics at work. The feeling of cold is due to the heat escaping
from the skin into the ambient surroundings. In this case twice as cold would
occur at that temperature at which the escaping heat is at twice the rate as
what occurs at the reference temperature, in this case 0 degrees. I think I'll
leave that piece of research up to you.;-)
Travis Murray
cold"? What do you use as your baseline? If you say "Tomorrow will be 10
degrees", are you using 30 as your baseline or are you assuming that "twice
as cold" is the same as "half as hot"? If you use 30 as your baseline, if
today is zero and tomorrow is twice as cold, tomorrow will be 30 below zero.
And, of course, there's always the matter of what scale you are using.
Let's say you are using Celsius. If today is zero Celsius, it is 32 degrees
Fahrenheit. Half as hot as that is 16 degrees Fahrehneit which is
approximately -8.88888 degrees Celsius.
Another way to solve this would be to use the average temperature as a
baseline. The reason you would use this is to distinguish between "hot" and
"cold". Anything above the average temperature would be considered "hot"
and anything below the average temperature would be considered "cold". You
would never say "it's 100 degrees today and it will be twice as cold
tomorrow" unless the average temerature was above 100. Now, let's assume
that the average temperature for the area is 70 degrees. If today is zero
degrees, tomorrow will be a frigid -70 degrees.
One problem comes from the fact that we're using numbers to represent
something that isn't really numerical. There is no "tangible" way to
measure temperature. Sure, you could use the amount of mercury in your
thermometer but then you are committed to using the lowest temperature on
your thermometer as a baseline. As long as your thermometer goes below zero
degrees the amount of Mercury can easily be halved to a value below zero.
Another problem is that we're assuming that you can measure the opposite of
a particular unit of measure. Temperature measures the heat of something,
not the coolness of it. Just as length measures how long something is, not
how short it is. You would never say that Bill is twice as short as Bob, it
just doesn't make sense. However, you could say that Bill is half as tall
as Bob and that would make sense.
Anyway, I feel that I'm just rambling now. Just trying to add my input. To
answer the question, my answer would be "there is no correct answer".
Travis
TommyTheCat wrote in message <36b1d...@news.cadvision.com>...
>The answer HAS to be zero. When you say: "Today it's twenty degrees,
>tomorrow it will be twice as hot", you know that tomorrow will be 40
>degrees--because you use zero as a baseline. You can double zero, but it's
>still zero.
>Edward Best wrote in message <78raa1$n...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
Larry Davis
Kelvin, then assume that "twice this cold" (actually "half this warm") would
be half the temperature in K?
foamy wrote in message ...
Robert Lowery
basic math can tell you, 0 times anything is still 0. The phrase "...twice as
cold as zero." implies the equation 2 x 0.
Robert
Travis Murray
degrees. Doesn't make sense to me. The problem with this one is in your
definition of "hot" and "cold". Read my previous post for more details.
Travis
Robert Lowery wrote in message <36B1E6AA...@osprey.net>...
CJ
I forgot to look at the thermometer, but it was damn cold.
On the first day I had to wear one coat. The next I had to wear 2.
Edward Best wrote in message <78raa1$n...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
Luke
From: foamy <fo...@direct.ca>
Newsgroups: alt.brain.teasers
Sent: 29 January 1999 07:01
Subject: Re: Twice As Cold as Zero
>In article <36B157CC...@azstarnet.com>, chin...@azstarnet.com wrote:
>>0 degrees Kelvin is about -273.16 C or -459.688 F. This is absolute zero.
>>Physics hasn't been able to cool anything quite this cold.
>>Twice this cold is still 0 K.
>
>The poster never said the " zero " was K.
>
>Jim
Seeing as 0 C is 273.16K then half as hot would be 139.58 K or -139.58 C
Luke
foamy
>From a mathematical stand point, 0 is nothing. And as anyone who has had even
>basic math can tell you, 0 times anything is still 0. The phrase "...twice as
>cold as zero." implies the equation 2 x 0.
>Robert
Well Robert, it is obvious you do not understand the "basics " of
this problem. Zero does not always mean " nothing "--even in math.
Once you advance past " basic " math, you will learn this.
With regards to temperature, " zero " C or F does not indicate a temp.
of " nothing ". In " basic " math, 2 times 40 degrees F would produce
80 degrees F. However, 80 degrees F, is NOT twice as warm as 40
degrees F. [ hint: no C or F absolute zero ].
Jim
DrJeql
the absence of heat...
However, if the statement in question was made by a television weather-man, then
the solution is easy... tomorrow it will be 30 degrees... they're never right.
Assumming that the temp is in F then the solution would be(based on half as hot)
-
-459.688 F / 2 or -229.844
which of course mean that we would all be frozen to death and nobody would
care...
In article <78raa1$n...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, "Edward says...
>
Carl G.
>
>"Today it is zero degrees, tomorrow it will be twice as cold. How cold
will
>it be?
>
>This has turned into a debate with no one able to agree. I say the answer
>is zero degrees.
>
>Any inputs?
>
>Ed
Since "cold" is what people "feel", one could interpret the remark as "The
flow of heat out of people's bodies will be doubled". This is similar to
what is done to create "wind chill" charts. If a person loses "x" calories
per hour, it reasonable to say that under different conditions they might
lose "2x" calories per hour. There are charts that give heat loss as a
function of wind speed, humidity, and temperature. I don't know what the
heat loss is for an average insulated person at zero degrees (C or F?), but
if one had the chart, it should be straight forward to double that value and
find the corresponding temperature (assuming humidity and wind speed stays
the same). This temperature probably won't be zero degrees.
To simplify the issue, assume you had two chambers, one at temperature T1,
the other at T2. The two chambers are separated by a thin insulating wall
(thickness dy) with thermal conductivity of L. One could then calculate the
heat flow, H, approximately by H = - L dT/dy. If T1 is 0 C and T2 is 37 C
(body temperature), then the temperature difference (dT) is 37 degrees.
Since the heat flow is proportional to the temperature difference, doubling
the temperature difference will double the heat flow. This would happen if
T1 was changed to -37 C. In a real situation, wind chill, insulation
(clothing), diffusion, moisture, non-linear effects, physiological and
psychological effects would all affect the result.
Carl G.
Joe Kilner
accidental ;-)
We experience temperatures as deviations from our own (near) constant body
temperature of around 36C. Most people feel comfortable at around 25C - If
we take this as the neutral point which feels neither hot nor cold then if
it was 0C yesterday then it will be -25C tomorrow! However outdoors
temperature is usually lower than 25C (well it is in Cambridge at this time
of year anyway....) and so given a point of about 10C when we feel "cold"
outside to say that it is twice as "cold" tomorrow would mean that it will
be -10C. This leads to the conclusion that when we talk about things being
twice as hot/cold we are referring to a "hot" yardstick for "hot" days - say
about 30C and a "cold" yardstick for "cold" days - say around 10C. If we
use these two yardsticks then we can say that 40 is twice as hot as 35 or
that -10 is twice as cold as 0.
Well that's what I think anyway........
Joe
Dave Bruce
Twice as cold = half as warm.
Convert your temperature to Kelvin and halve it.
Dave
Alessandro
I also think that making any references to scales (human defined and thus
relatives) is erroneous. Therefore I would approach the problem as follows.
Take a given volume of water (say V) and time how long it takes today to
freeze (say T).
Tomorrow it will be so cold that, twice the volume V will freeze in the
same time T.
Any volunteer?
Alessandro
Email with no capital(s)
Edward Best <edb...@worldnet.att.net> scritto nell'articolo
houghi
wrote:
>Edward Best wrote:
>
>> It all started with a quote at the end of my auto-signature:
>>
>> "Today it is zero degrees, tomorrow it will be twice as cold. How cold will
>> it be?
>>
>> This has turned into a debate with no one able to agree. I say the answer
>> is zero degrees.
>>
>> Any inputs?
>My son teaches a grade 12 creative writing class. This week, they took on the
>task of solving your temperature question. By Friday they were sufficiently
>worn down, so they all decided to agree that the answer is zero. Therefore it
>must be zero. After all, how wrong could a classroom full of English students
>be?????
>
Heat is measured in Kelvin. If it is 0°K even hell freezes over.
houghi - delete uh something, like, uh well uh, my return adres is not ok.
--
I am back, and I STILL don't like HTML on Usenet
> http://www.ping.be/houghi/nohtml
Jan Merolant
Luke heeft geschreven in bericht <78sup9$f50$1...@mimas.brunel.ac.uk>...
How about when we're talking about 0 Fahrenheit or 0 Rankine?
Jan
>
>Luke
>
>
lda...@*no_spam*roanoke.infi.net
volume of water will freeze in half the time. Trying to use twice the volume
(probably better to define in terms of mass, also) will require you to change
the geometry of your container, thus introducing additional variables other than
simply the temperature.
Quoth "Alessandro" <PARISa....@flashnet.it> :
>I don't know what the temperature will be but certainly not 0 degrees.
>I also think that making any references to scales (human defined and thus
>relatives) is erroneous. Therefore I would approach the problem as follows.
>
>Take a given volume of water (say V) and time how long it takes today to
>freeze (say T).
>Tomorrow it will be so cold that, twice the volume V will freeze in the
>same time T.
>Any volunteer?
>
>Alessandro
>Email with no capital(s)
>
>
>Edward Best <edb...@worldnet.att.net> scritto nell'articolo
><78raa1$n...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>> It all started with a quote at the end of my auto-signature:
>>
>> "Today it is zero degrees, tomorrow it will be twice as cold. How cold
>will
>> it be?
>>
>> This has turned into a debate with no one able to agree. I say the
>answer
>> is zero degrees.
>
To reply by email, remove the *NO_SPAM* from my email address.
D.J. Schreffler
On 29 Jan 1999, Edward Best wrote:
> It all started with a quote at the end of my auto-signature:
>
> "Today it is zero degrees, tomorrow it will be twice as cold. How cold will
> it be?
>
> This has turned into a debate with no one able to agree. I say the answer
> is zero degrees.
>
> Any inputs?
IMO, twice is cold means half the heat,therefore half the temperature
above absolute 0. Hence in terms of Centigrade, it would be -108 or
thereabouts, Fahrenheit would be -200 something, and Kelvin....would still
be 0.
D.J.
nobody
As absolute zero 0K is -273C then surely twice as cold as zero C would
be -136.5C
Inno Vermijs
there's twice as much wind as today and still zero degrees, brrrr...
Inno #8~)
Edward Best wrote in message <78raa1$n...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
>It all started with a quote at the end of my auto-signature:
>
>"Today it is zero degrees, tomorrow it will be twice as cold. How cold
will
>it be?
>
>This has turned into a debate with no one able to agree. I say the answer
>is zero degrees.
>
>Any inputs?
>
>Ed
>
>
Daren Scot Wilson
"Cold" is a negative deviation of temperature from normal Human
comfort. Take that to be 70 deg. Farenheit. Twice as cold would be
twice as far from comfort, or -70 deg F. That's how I'd define it, at
least for a first crack at it.
A more refined definition of what it would mean might account for rate
of heat loss from one's body - but at which temperature does one put on
a coat and make the problem terribly nonlinear?
(I assume the poster of this Q. is a Human.)
--
Daren Scot Wilson
dar...@pipeline.com
www.newcolor.com
----
"A ship in a harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for"
-- William Shedd
Ian MacDonald
>>Edward Best wrote:
>>
>>> It all started with a quote at the end of my auto-signature:
>>>
>>> "Today it is zero degrees, tomorrow it will be twice as cold. How cold will
>>> it be?
>>>
>>> This has turned into a debate with no one able to agree. I say the answer
>>> is zero degrees.
>>>
>>> Any inputs?
Well, my twopence worth is this:
Zero degrees centigrade is 32 degrees Fahrenheit. Therefore 16 degrees
Fahrenheit is twice as cold. Convert it back to Centigrade and the
answer is -8.89 degrees.
But then, twopence doesn't go very far these days.
--
Ian MacDonald
Rod Taylor
Ian MacDonald wrote in message ...
>Zero degrees centigrade is 32 degrees Fahrenheit. Therefore 16
degrees
>Fahrenheit is twice as cold. Convert it back to Centigrade and
the
>answer is -8.89 degrees.
So does this mean that 'twice as cold' and 'half as hot' are
synonymous? And where do the Brass Monkeys come in?
I'm confused!
Rod
DD
Pete Gardner
thermal energy?
if so:
0 degrees centigrade is approx 273.15K
half this is approx 136.58K which is -136.58 degrees centigrade..
The answer is a bit more complicated in Fahrenheit as 0 degrees is
approx -17.78K which in turn is approx 255.37K
half this is 126.69K which equates to -229.84 degrees Fahrenheit
That's if my calculator typing is correct.
------Original Message-----
From: Ian MacDonald <two...@abank.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.brain.teasers
Date: 03 February 1999 11:24
Subject: Re: Twice As Cold as Zero
>>
>>>Edward Best wrote:
>>>
>>>> It all started with a quote at the end of my auto-signature:
>>>>
>>>> "Today it is zero degrees, tomorrow it will be twice as cold. How cold
will
>>>> it be?
>>>>
>>>> This has turned into a debate with no one able to agree. I say the
answer
>>>> is zero degrees.
>>>>
>>>> Any inputs?
>
>Well, my twopence worth is this:
>
>Zero degrees centigrade is 32 degrees Fahrenheit. Therefore 16 degrees
>Fahrenheit is twice as cold. Convert it back to Centigrade and the
>answer is -8.89 degrees.
>
Alec Owen
as it is at 9am
and half as hot at 9am as it was at noon. Half as cold as 0 deg is 0 deg
and twice as cold is still 0 deg. Actually the concept twice as hot or
twice as cold has no real meaning.
It is like saying a punch on the nose is twice as painful,as a slap on
the face.
There are a lot questions with no real answers; for example where is
heaven?
A Owen