EO Question (SPOILER!!!!)
Jean-Christophe Claude Batllo
SPOILER BELOW...
Hello everyone,
I have just finished Executive Order and I have a question regarding the
Mountain Men.
What was their role in the plot, exactly? They are finally
arrested at the end, but the story would be the same without them.
Don't you think that Tom Clancy had different intentions at the beginning of
his book (maybe a bombing in Washington DC in the same time as the terrorist
attack on Giant Steps?), then changed his mind and got rid if them in the motel?
Just curious...
Jean-Christophe
Tim McCarthy
SPOILER BELOW
Jean-Christophe Claude Batllo <je...@tamu.edu> wrote in article
<5c83vk$p...@news.tamu.edu>...
> What was their role in the plot, exactly? They are finally
> arrested at the end, but the story would be the same without them.
> Don't you think that Tom Clancy had different intentions at the beginning
of
> his book (maybe a bombing in Washington DC in the same time as the
terrorist
> attack on Giant Steps?), then changed his mind and got rid if them in the
motel?
IMO, this was TC's take on the KC bombing and the para-military,
survivalist's. As with just about everything, the advocates of a strong
military compose a broad spectrum of views. He's spent a good deal of ink
talking about how people who work in the defense industry aren't robots, or
fodder, or all the rest of the stereotypes. The Ryan books expound on the
sensibility of the field and how the people who are working at the art of
war aren't evil minded monsters, but rational, intelligent humans dealing
with the realities of the world.
Then you read about skin heads, the para-military groups, Dave Koresh, the
UniBomber and it makes you angry.
So I think he just disassociated himself and his characters from that
position. As the "Mountain" boys trek across the land they (and we)
discover how isolated their position is. At the end, the people who put an
end to their quest epitomize the type of person Clancy finds admirable.
Or ... it's just a joke. The whole plan is really pretty stupid and the way
it ends is pretty funny. What I found really funny was that the boys didn't
notice the smell themselves and were caught unawares because of it. Sort of
poetic that their plan had that smell, dontcha think?
--
Tim McCarthy
pop...@tiac.net
Gml...@scvnet.com
Jean-Christophe Claude Batllo wrote:
>
> SPOILER BELOW...
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> I have just finished Executive Order and I have a question regarding the
> Mountain Men.
>
> arrested at the end, but the story would be the same without them.
> Don't you think that Tom Clancy had different intentions at the beginning of
> his book (maybe a bombing in Washington DC in the same time as the terrorist
> attack on Giant Steps?), then changed his mind and got rid if them in the motel?
All of the above have been suggested here since EO came out. My pet
theory is that they will show up in a future book after their release
from prison. After all, one of them supposedly found a flaw in White
House security!
All through the drive I was waiting for them to lose control of the
ill-handling truck and convert themselves into a crater on the
interstate.
George Lyle
--
Return address altered to deflect junk e-mail.
Remove the leading "G" from the address when replying via e-mail.
Ran...@ix.netcom.com
Jean-Christophe Claude Batllo wrote:
>
> SPOILER BELOW...
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> I have just finished Executive Order and I have a question regarding the
> Mountain Men.
>
> What was their role in the plot, exactly? They are finally
> arrested at the end, but the story would be the same without them.
> Don't you think that Tom Clancy had different intentions at the beginning of
> his book (maybe a bombing in Washington DC in the same time as the terrorist
> attack on Giant Steps?), then changed his mind and got rid if them in the motel?
>
> Jean-Christophe
I consider them more or less comic relief. Randy
David Wei
In message <32E837...@scvnet.com> - Gml...@scvnet.comThu, 23 Jan 1997
20:16:08 -0800 writes:
:>All through the drive I was waiting for them to lose control of the
:>ill-handling truck and convert themselves into a crater on the
:>interstate.
Somehow I was hoping for them to get into a ditch near the interstart... and
turning that small ditch into a REALLY BIG one... :)
===========================================================
David Wei E-Mail Address: davi...@uvic.ca
lead...@lords.com
NEW!!! WWW Page: http://gulf.uvic.ca/~swei
Running under am486DX4-120 with the POWER of OS/2 Warp.
PGP Public Key Block available on my WWW page.
========================Team OS/2=========================
F-22's note to fighters on the "other" side:
You can hide, but you can't run.... :)
===========================================================
Jim Russell
In article <5c83vk$p...@news.tamu.edu>, je...@tamu.edu wrote:
> SPOILER BELOW...
>
> I have just finished Executive Order and I have a question regarding the
> Mountain Men.
>
> What was their role in the plot, exactly? They are finally
> arrested at the end, but the story would be the same without them.
> Don't you think that Tom Clancy had different intentions at the beginning of
> his book (maybe a bombing in Washington DC in the same time as the terrorist
> attack on Giant Steps?), then changed his mind and got rid if them in
the motel?
>
> Just curious...
> Jean-Christophe
When reading EO i found the Mountain Men storyline somewhat extraneous
until the restrictions on public movement are announced by the Pres.
Knowing what he was doing was in full violation of the constuition he
issues the order for the good of the people, The reasoning being that the
Constuition was 200+ years old and could not have possibly forseen the
current attack on the USA and that total shutdown of the country was the
only way to prevent the death toll reaching into the millions.
While transporting their device they get caught in the lock-down on travel
and while waiting are amazed to see the agreement by the americian people
that illegal or not it was necessary.
IMHO.. The Mountain Men story was definately a fringe element that helps
to explain the reactions of the americian people during the crisis. They
expected total outrage at this violation of the constuition by the
government but see the exact opposite.. The line of the book says that
sometimes you have to use common sense even if it is illegal.
Another question to be raised is if the government can suspend the
constuition for a crisis for the good of the people and they agree does
this not set a dangerous precedent where the government can decide what a
crisis is, Sell that idea to the public and then literally ignore the
constitution for the good of the people.
Clancy's premise is a very real threat that could only be fought in this manner
but it really is the thin edge of the wedge .
John M. Atkinson
David Wei wrote:
>
> In message <32E837...@scvnet.com> - Gml...@scvnet.comThu, 23 Jan 1997
> 20:16:08 -0800 writes:
> :>All through the drive I was waiting for them to lose control of the
> :>ill-handling truck and convert themselves into a crater on the
> :>interstate.
>
> Somehow I was hoping for them to get into a ditch near the interstart... and
> turning that small ditch into a REALLY BIG one... :)
Please, Please, TC, have them take out a chunk of the Beltway, forcing
Ryan to replace it with a transportation system capable of handling the
actual amount of cars driven on it. . .
I can always dream.
--
John M. Atkinson
jatk...@gmu.edu
Lacking a muse, my Mauser must be my thunderbolt
-Lt. Backsight Forethought
Rob Smith
I thought they were converting that cement mixer into a great big grape-shot charge. The
problem was they put the lead shot on top instead of at the back of the mixer. I was
predicting they would pull up on the Oval below the south lawn, "aim" the thing a the
White House and cut loose. It would, of course, obliterate the truck, but not before
most of the shot became ballistic objects flying toward the White House.
--
Rob Smith
smit...@mcleod.net
David Wei
In message <32E8B7...@gmu.edu> - "John M. Atkinson" <jatk...@gmu.edu>Fri,
24 Jan 1997 08:20:28 -0500 writes:
:>> Somehow I was hoping for them to get into a ditch near the interstart... and
:>> turning that small ditch into a REALLY BIG one... :)
:>
:>Please, Please, TC, have them take out a chunk of the Beltway, forcing
:>Ryan to replace it with a transportation system capable of handling the
:>actual amount of cars driven on it. . .
:>
:>I can always dream.
Somehow I believe dreaming about winning lottery and buying a chopper to fly
over that area might be a more easily accompilsed dream... :)
Steve Silverwood, KB6OJS
Probably just a red herring. I don't think he needed to just fill
space/time in the story. Barring any deeper meaning, it was just a
way to complicate the story and fuel speculation on the part of the
reader as to what exactly was going to happen as you progress through
the book.
Tom Bunt
Ran...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> Jean-Christophe Claude Batllo wrote:
> >
> > SPOILER BELOW...
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > Mountain Men.
> >
> > What was their role in the plot, exactly? They are finally
> > arrested at the end, but the story would be the same without them.
> > Don't you think that Tom Clancy had different intentions at the beginning of
> > his book (maybe a bombing in Washington DC in the same time as the terrorist
> > attack on Giant Steps?), then changed his mind and got rid if them in the motel?
> >
> > Just curious...
> > Jean-Christophe
I believe the point is that anyone can build a large mass destruction
device from common chemicals and move the device to a target.
In addition, the MMs were caught by "grunt" police officers doing their
job without the intervention of high tech. equipment. A grunt on the
ground is worth a thousand satellite pictures as Mr. Clancy often points
out in his novels. I believe that many of these types are thwarted each
year by common police officers before they have a chance to do any harm.
You might also take the idea that there are as many crazies here as
outside our borders.
Tom
FeigFamily
Someone asked the question of why the Mountain Men were even in
Executive Orders since that subplot never really goes anywhere. I
personally thought the Mountain Men were an appropriate inclusion in EO.
You have to remember that when Tom Clancy tells a story, he tells the
WHOLE story. The Mountain Men's plot to kill Jack Ryan, even though
nothing came of it, is part of the story of what transpired as a result of
Ryan becoming president. It turned out that that particular crisis was
diffused by a group of waitresses and truckers and a cop in some no name
U.S. town, but it gets included in EO none the less.
I actually found the fact that common, everyday-Joe Americans stop
the Mountain Men really interesting because Clancy has always referred to
them and depicted them as the "heart of America." Sure, Clancy says
America is what it is because of spy and military heroes like Ryan. But
for him the waitresses, truckers, and small-town-cops are at least as
important. They had been included in almost all of Clancy's other books,
but they had never made such an impact on the plot as they do with the
Mountain Men situation in EO (at least, not on their own without the help
of the FBI or CIA). I have to admit, at first I was a little surprised
with how Clancy dealt with the Mountain Men subplot. The more I thought
about it, the more I liked it and thought it fit in with the themes
running through Clancy's novels.
I have a separate question. Does anyone think that Executive Orders is
going to be the last Jack Ryan novel? I can't really put my finger on any
specific details, but something about the way EO ended when Ryan holds a
final press conference made me think that this could be the final chapter
in the Ryan saga. Obviously, the way Ryan implies that he will run for
the presidency in the next election leaves the door open for another
novel, but I couldn't really shake the feeling of closure in the last
chapter or so of EO. I should say though that I kind of felt the same way
after reading the epilogue of Sum of All Fears when Ryan is given a
ceremonial sword in Iran. So maybe it's just me. Anyways, if you have
any reaction, I'd love to hear it.
Matt Feig
JonesinATL
I doubt that EO will be the last Ryan novel, as there is too much left to
tell. Ryan is still President and hinted in the press conference at the
end of the book that he would go up for reelection. I can't imagine that
TC could resist the temptation to decribe a Presidential election campaign
from the inside, and how Ryan would deal with all the dirt slinging that
is usually involved. I suspect he has strong feelings about such issues
and would not miss such an ideal opportunity to express them. I would not
be surprised, however, if he takes a break from Ryan and first does
another flashback novel with Clark, perhaps his escapde in Iran that was
so often hinted about in both DOH and EO.
As to the question of the Mountain Men and why Clancy did not develop them
all the way to another assasanation attempt, I would say this. There is
an interview in the Tom Clancy Companion in which TC talks about how he
goes about writing his works. In it, he stated that he does not use
outlines, and that as he writes a book, he himself is often just as
surprised by the way things turn out as the reader is. Therefore, it
would be reasonable to look at the Mountain Men as one of many antagonist
plot structures that TC set up in the earlier part of the book. It simply
gave him more options down the road. He probably did not know at that
point exactly how the book would end. When he did reach the climax, he
probably decided that as there was already so much going on (the war with
the UIR, the attempt on his daughter, and then the attempt on his own
life), that it would have been overdoing it to have the Mountain Men pull
off their attack as well. And so, he assigned them the fate which they
received. Of course he could have gone back and deleted that scenario
altogether, but it did have relavance to the story. It represented the
discontent and distrust of some citizens with the government, and how
strong that feeling was. Thus, the Mountain Men episodes did play a
significant role in the story. Well, that's my 2 cent's worth.
ADJ
Mike and Amy Manley
JonesinATL wrote:
>
deleted
> As to the question of the Mountain Men and why Clancy did not develop them...
When he did reach the climax, he
> probably decided that as there was already so much going on (the war with
> the UIR, the attempt on his daughter, and then the attempt on his own
> life), that it would have been overdoing it to have the Mountain Men pull
> off their attack as well. And so, he assigned them the fate which they
> received. Of course he could have gone back and deleted that scenario
> altogether, but it did have relavance to the story. It represented the
> discontent and distrust of some citizens with the government, and how
> strong that feeling was. Thus, the Mountain Men episodes did play a
> significant role in the story. Well, that's my 2 cent's worth.
>
> ADJ
I tend to think that this as TC's way of showing the incompetency of
some of these Militia Groups....spur of the moment plans, and no
contigency for when things don't work out the way they planned.. This
would explain why it was simply a state trooper who spoiled the plan
instead of an agency investigation.
Mike
Geoff Edwards
On 23 Jan 1997 16:35:00 GMT, je...@tamu.edu (Jean-Christophe Claude
Batllo) wrote:
>I have just finished Executive Order and I have a question regarding the
>Mountain Men.
My wonderful news-server has just picked this up, and notes that
there are 13 unrecoverable comments to the thread, so apologies to
anyone who has already said this, and to anyone who has seen me write
it before.
I think the MM plot serves two purposes:
1) it reminds us that the threat of terrorist action against POTUS is
not confined to acts sponsored by foreign governments and a few
home-grown lunatics.
2) it reminds us that, as the head of the Metropolitan Police
anti-terrorist branch said, to beat terrorism the state needs to be
lucky every time - to score a massive "victory" the terrorist
organisation only needs to get lucky once.
Geoff Edwards
Leeds, U.K.
gedw...@arifax.demon.co.uk
ari...@cix.compulink.co.uk
Jay R. Ashworth
FeigFamily (feigf...@aol.com) wrote:
: I have a separate question. Does anyone think that Executive Orders is
: going to be the last Jack Ryan novel? I can't really put my finger on any
: specific details, but something about the way EO ended when Ryan holds a
: final press conference made me think that this could be the final chapter
: in the Ryan saga. Obviously, the way Ryan implies that he will run for
: the presidency in the next election leaves the door open for another
: novel, but I couldn't really shake the feeling of closure in the last
: chapter or so of EO. I should say though that I kind of felt the same way
: after reading the epilogue of Sum of All Fears when Ryan is given a
: ceremonial sword in Iran. So maybe it's just me. Anyways, if you have
: any reaction, I'd love to hear it.
Ah yes... the "what's gonna happen to Jack _next_" question.
Well, I guess it was time for it to come around again on the guitar...
I think we're gonna see another flashback book. Either "Jack in
college, the Marines, and business", or "Clark and Chavez in "...
something. The African thing? Something else?
Cheers,
-- jr 'Ding in the Barrio?' a
--
Jay R. Ashworth j...@scfn.thpl.lib.fl.us
Member of the Technical Staff Unsolicited Commercial Emailers Sued
The Suncoast Freenet Pedantry: It's not just a job, it's an adventure.
Tampa Bay, Florida +1 813 790 7592
Bench
In article <32FDFB...@mail1.erinet.com>, gar...@mail1.erinet.com
says...
>I tend to think that this as TC's way of showing the incompetency of
>some of these Militia Groups....spur of the moment plans, and no
>contigency for when things don't work out the way they planned.. This
>would explain why it was simply a state trooper who spoiled the plan
>instead of an agency investigation.
>
>Mike
Sorry Mike, but it couldn't have been to show their incompetancy. They were
caught by dumb luck, an organized search for them would have almost
definately proved futile as the gov't had no way of knowing that the attempt
would take place in the first place, never causing the law enforcement
agencies to get involved. Second of all, while I have a great deal of repect
for the Secret Service (their probably heading any investigation that would
take place,) it would be extremely dificult to first of all locate them, and
second of all, as long as the dump truck didn't start stinking at a key moment,
like when a state policeman is standing around, they would have no or very
little reason to suspect an attempt on the president.
Chris Bench
There was only one catch, and that was Catch-22. -Joseph Heller
Joe Bednorz
ji...@newbridge.com (Jim Russell) wrote:
>When reading EO i found the Mountain Men storyline somewhat extraneous
>until the restrictions on public movement are announced by the Pres.
>Knowing what he was doing was in full violation of the constuition he
>issues the order for the good of the people, The reasoning being that the
>Constuition was 200+ years old and could not have possibly forseen the
>current attack on the USA and that total shutdown of the country was the
>only way to prevent the death toll reaching into the millions.
<snippage to distort the post to serve my own nefarious ends>
>Another question to be raised is if the government can suspend the
>constuition for a crisis for the good of the people and they agree does
>this not set a dangerous precedent where the government can decide what a
>crisis is, Sell that idea to the public and then literally ignore the
>constitution for the good of the people.
>Clancy's premise is a very real threat that could only be fought in this manner
> but it really is the thin edge of the wedge .
Erm, ah, *quarantine* has always been recognized as legitimate.
This is pointed out in the book.
HTH.
HAND.
Joe Bednorz
=======================================================================
Tom Clancy is in no way, shape, or form bound by, nor responsible for,
my bizarre interpretations of his works, nor by my stupid opinions.
Joe Bednorz
Yes! Someone else got it. The first Red Herring Ever in a TC opus.
Worked like a charm, too.
Joe Bednorz
fla...@nr.infi.net (Mike Sharsky) wrote:
>In article <19970207080...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, feigf...@aol.com (FeigFamily) wrote:
>Will TC stick with Jack, because he's a cash cow and TC likes him - isn't he
>TC's alter ego, after all? Or will he grow tired of Jack, feeling enslaved to
>the character and wishing he could end Jack's career for good? Sir Arthur
>Conan Doyle tried it with Sherlock Holmes, by apparently shoving him and
>Prof. Moriarity into Reichenbach Falls. The public's clamor for Holmes was so
>great, however, that Doyle brought him back to life, by contriving the
>scenario that only Moriarity fell, while Holmes temporarily hid himself from a
>grieving Watson.
>On the other hand, Agatha Christie turned Hercule Poirot into a crippled,
>unhappy wreck before ending his appearances. Poirot fans conclude she did
>this out of spite, having grown weary of Poirot.
Ian Fleming killed off James Bond at the end of _From Russia With
Love_ as well. This was the fifth or sixth of the thirteen or so
novels.
Imho, TC simply postulated a world where a nice, honest, hard-working
guy doesn't finish last just because he's nice, honest and
hard-working.