The Spanish Civil War [1936-1939]
D. Spencer Hines
What do you think of Peter Wyden's _The Passionate War, A Narrative History
of the Spanish Civil War_?
The Spanish National Colors are interesting....
Blood & Sand.
The VHS documentary by Grenada, six hours long, in DVD or not? Anybody
know?
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:11uv2s9...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
>
>> Excellent Points...
>>
>> You are obviously very knowledgeable about the Spanish Civil War
>> [1936-1939].
>>
>> You wrote a term paper or a senior thesis on it for a degree?
>>
>> Could you please recommend several books one should read on it?
>>
>> Films?
>>
>> I only have the one book by Hugh Thomas.
>
> Thomas is the Bible for the period and about as deep as you want to go
> into politics. It fails on military subjects both in completeness and
> accuracy, and somewhat in perspective having a typical period bias. There
> are several good biographies of Franco including the one by Paul Preston.
> Unfortunately there are no books available in English or Spanish that
> cover military events adequately. They must be pieced together from many
> sources which themselves may be inaccurate in parts. Stay away from most
> works published before 1980. Recent research has been much more
> politically objective.
>
> There is a very fine British documentary on VHS put out by Grenada. It may
> be on CD by now. It is too long for one night viewing but gives a lot of
> visual color to the period and has some outstanding personal interviews of
> people who fought on both sides. -the Troll
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> Thanks.
>
> What do you think of Peter Wyden's _The Passionate War, A Narrative
> History
> of the Spanish Civil War_?
The book is a series of vignettes and not history. Wyden is a leftie, not
surprisingly, and so the book is cherry-picked and not balanced.
Robert Stradling has written at least two recent well researched books on
the period which cover individual Europeans joining Franco's side. It wasn't
much advertised at the time but thousands of Europeans, and even Americans,
joined up to fight for Franco. I had a French Monarchist step-father who was
one of them. Like Europeans on the Left, they usually became disillusioned
from their original simplistic idea that the civil war in Spain was part of
a world movement. They found Franco's Spain ethnocentric and deeply
suspicious of all outsiders in what the Spanish themselves clearly saw as a
purely Spanish war fought for Spanish reasons centered deeply in their own
history. -the Troll
D. Spencer Hines
What led you to such an enduring interest in the Spanish Civil War in the
first place?
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:11v19ot...@corp.supernews.com...
TOliver
As in his case, I had a direct contacts/sources, a Spanish Professor of
Utopian Socialist leanings who had been a university student in Madrid and
quickly volunteered for the Loyalist Cause, only to be come more than
disenchanted by what he viewed as the "takeover" by the Reds of what had
been (in his view) a "Common Front". Over in the History Department lurked
an actual former commissioned officer with service throughout the War on the
Nationalist side, only able to come to the US because of a USAian mother and
some credible assistance to USForces Europe post 1945.
Even after all this time, Thomas's book remains the best combination of
"credible" and "readable". For a Leftist's account with great, rarely seen
photos, Abel Paz's little pocket _The Spanish Civil War_ creates an image of
time and place.
Then there's hippo's Ethnocentrism.... Ethonocentric? The Spanish are not
ethnocentric, but among the world's most prickly proud and view furriners as
something less than important in the grand scheme of things, tolerable but
not acceptable. Almost as, if not as xenophobic as the Japanese, the sense
of individual nationalism does not decline as income diminishes. Few can be
as prickly and "Spanish" as the poorest of rural workers, and their urban
counterparts demonstrate the same qualities. The Falange could never have
won without the Nativist loyalty to the Monarchial tradition, even a
tradition buffeted by Bourbons and the Carlist Wars, and on the other side,
where else except among such proudly independent folks could real, honest to
goodness Anarchism ever gained such a strong foothold.
They were a people of grandest extremes. Reaction to the rigidity of the
Falange and the miseducation of the young has likely helped to strengthen
and thicken the veneer of Socialism, a sort of Pablumish version combined
with a monarchy of limited power, but I still suspect that a greater
percentage of Spaniards would rally to the call of the King than would
UKians respond to a similar entreaty by a British monarch, even one who has
reigned for all long as the incumbent. Amusingly, the current brand of
"socialism" differs little in actual practice than did the Falange's version
of state socialism. The old guys simply tolerated dissent by
removing/imprisoning/etc. the dissenters, while the current holders of power
simply speak louder, longer and more often.
The bottom line, relative to size and population, Spain remains a "poor"
country, a step ahead of the old Eastern Europeans and blessed or cursed
with substantial income from tourism, and likely to be the victim of subtle
discrimination by some of its potentially more proserous neighbors. The
Church, always the principle upholder of traditions and conservative custom,
has declined in sway and capacity to alter the popular will, not yet as weak
as the CoE, but lock in a downhill slide.
TMO
TMO
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> Fascinating!
>
> What led you to such an enduring interest in the Spanish Civil War in the
> first place?
I started with the Riff Wars which led to political problems in Spain and
Franco. Franco is a difficult person to understand. The more one studies
him, the more contradictions one finds. -the Troll
hippo
"TOliver" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote in message
OK, we'll go back to my made-up idea of etho-centrism. Franco was an extreme
Nationalist which included especially the Spanish (traditional) culture and
character. He was nearly as much opposed to Left ideologies because they
were foreign ideas imported into Spain as he was for their tenets of belief.
Most fighting for the Popular Front, except for the comparatively few
Stalinists, hated foreign, especially Soviet, interference. -the Troll
D. Spencer Hines
She hates Socialist and Communist ideas because they are _Foreign
Importations From The Decadent Continent_ just as much as she hates them for
their content.
She is correct, of course.
The ideas of John Locke, Adam Smith, Edmund Burke and John Stuart Mill are
FAR superior to those of the scruffy little Socialist and Communist
ragamuffins on the Continent.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
"hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:11v1k06...@corp.supernews.com...
Grey Satterfield
Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
> news:11v1k06...@corp.supernews.com...
>
>> OK, we'll go back to my made-up idea of etho-centrism. Franco was an
>> extreme Nationalist which included especially the Spanish (traditional)
>> culture and character. He was nearly as much opposed to Left ideologies
>> because they were foreign ideas imported into Spain as he was for their
>> tenets of belief. Most fighting for the Popular Front, except for the
>> comparatively few Stalinists, hated foreign, especially Soviet,
>> interference. -the Troll
>
>
> That is also one of the endearing traits possessed by Margaret Thatcher.
>
> She hates Socialist and Communist ideas because they are _Foreign
> Importations From The Decadent Continent_ just as much as she hates them for
> their content.
>
> She is correct, of course.
>
> The ideas of John Locke, Adam Smith, Edmund Burke and John Stuart Mill are
> FAR superior to those of the scruffy little Socialist and Communist
> ragamuffins on the Continent.
>
> DSH
Indeed, the problem with socialism in all its permutations is that its
advocates refuse to acknowledge human nature. Without understanding human
nature there can be no understanding economics.
Grey Satterfield
D. Spencer Hines
> advocates refuse to acknowledge human nature. Without understanding human
> nature there can be no understanding economics.
>
> Grey Satterfield
Indeed...
Or understanding Politics -- or Society -- or Psychology.
A woman who had spent all her life up to the age of 45 in the Soviet Union,
mostly in Moscow, once told me precisely the same thing, circa 1985.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
news:C0165803.262DD%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> That is also one of the endearing traits possessed by Margaret Thatcher.
>
> She hates Socialist and Communist ideas because they are _Foreign
> Importations From The Decadent Continent_ just as much as she hates them
> for their content.
>
> She is correct, of course.
>
> The ideas of John Locke, Adam Smith, Edmund Burke and John Stuart Mill are
> FAR superior to those of the scruffy little Socialist and Communist
> ragamuffins on the Continent.
Yup. -the Troll
JCarew
"hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote
Check out:
The United States Library of Congress\Research\
Division\Countries Studies(Spain) Website
At: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/estoc.html
Hope that helps
Jim
hippo
"JCarew" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote
The articles are really quite good but I have been studying the man for
forty years with no absolute understanding of him. It would probably be
easier if I were Spanish. -the Troll
TOliver
Brits of diverse ideology, Rodinka Russians and USAians of varying sorts)
sort of the Olympic medalists of ethnocentrism.
For a Spanish officer of Franco's generation, the "Tradition" and the
paramount nature of the Church when it came to mores and social conduct were
pillars of existence, and Spain had been badly treated by foreigners since
the dawn of time. He expected the Germans and Italians to depart, having
bigger fish to fry and little to gain after the "practice match". He had
every reason to expect that the Russians and asosrted lLeftist foreigners
would remain and assuredly destroy society, the tradition and the Church
(and with them Spain).
Post-war, the government added substantial social programs as vehicles for
managing the affection and potential disaffection of the populace. That the
Falange lasted so long is a salute to Franco's shrewd exercise of power, the
level of control over social and cultural institutions, enough popular
"sweeteners" to placate the populace, and the almost unwavering support of
enough Spaniards who had seen enoough violence to avoid a repeat of it.
Jack Linthicum
One of the interesting aspect of Franco's government was his ability to
turn tasks over to people with whom he no real acquiantance and let
them do their thing. One of these area was the television system which
ended up as a non-state operation with the former head being the guy
picked to de-statify the Spanish institutions.
http://www.iua.upf.es/formats/formats3/bag_a.htm
"A television system that was one of the mirrors that best reflected
the political scene could do little to escape such mediocrity, as its
directors attempted to shape it in their own image and to their own
ends. Nevertheless, it would unfair to not mention the contribution of
a small group of professionals who, to the extent possible, tried to
create quality work. Their efforts were admirable, especially given the
stifling context in which they had to work."
hippo
"TOliver" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote in message
>> OK, we'll go back to my made-up idea of etho-centrism. Franco was an
Yup, but the Falange of the Franco era was of his own creation and bore
little resemblance to the Falange as it had been in 1935. -the Troll
Rick B
What is your opinion of the book "The Spanish Tragedy: The Civil War in
Perspective" by Raymond Carr?
Rick B
hippo
"Rick B" wrote in message
> Hippo,
>
> What is your opinion of the book "The Spanish Tragedy: The Civil War in
> Perspective" by Raymond Carr?
Hate to admit I haven't read it.
A long time ago I lost interest in the socio-political aspects of the period
and started looking at it as a war, intending to write a purely military
history in English to supplement the plentiful political studies already
available. Like the best intentions the reality of finding accurate period
maps (many early commanders on both sides were obliged to use Michelin
travel maps), the need to deal with eons of propaganda generated
misconceptions and outright falsehoods, and making Republican accounts sync
with the excellent and detailed Nationalist military records which do exist,
crushed the attempt by pure weight.It's a job needs doing; it just won't be
done by me.
From reading reviews, Carr seems to focus on the weakness of Spanish
political parties to resist the war and subsequent dictatorship which makes
perfect sense given the comparative immaturity of political institutions in
Spain at the time. -the Troll
hippo
"Rick B" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote in message
>>> Check out:
>>> The United States Library of Congress\Research\
>>> Division\Countries Studies(Spain) Website
>>>
>>> At: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/estoc.html
>>>
>>> Hope that helps
>>
>> The articles are really quite good but I have been studying the man for
>> forty years with no absolute understanding of him. It would probably be
>> easier if I were Spanish. -the Troll
>>
> Have you written any articles on Franco?
Not since school. There are at least two modern biographies in English about
him. The one by Paul Preston has actually been translated into Spanish for
publication. -the Troll
JCarew
"hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote
There is an excellent book about Franco called,
"Spain, the Jews,and Franco", by Haim Avni,
translated from the Hebrew by Emanuel Shimoni,
published in 1982 by the Jewish Publication
Society of America in Philadelphia.
ISBN# 0-8276-0188-3. You might want to
give that a try.
Btw There are those who claim that Franco
was of Jewish ancestry.
Jim
hippo
"JCarew" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote
>>The articles are really quite good but I have been
>>studying the man for forty years with no absolute
>>understanding of him. It would probably be
>>easier if I were Spanish. -the Troll
>
> There is an excellent book about Franco called,
> "Spain, the Jews,and Franco", by Haim Avni,
> translated from the Hebrew by Emanuel Shimoni,
> published in 1982 by the Jewish Publication
> Society of America in Philadelphia.
> ISBN# 0-8276-0188-3. You might want to
> give that a try.
>
> Btw There are those who claim that Franco
> was of Jewish ancestry.
Mostly because of his name. Jews, apparently, were given place names instead
of proper gentile names. Franco means the French one. There isn't any proof
as far as I know.
My brother-in-law's family escaped from France by crossing the Spanish
border and thereby escaped the Holocaust. Franco also refused to participate
in Hitler's final solution and single handedly saved the considerable Jewish
population of Salonika. The Spanish have always felt a kinship sense of
responsibility for their once Spanish Jewish population as long as it wasn't
in Spain. -the Troll
JCarew
"hippo" wrote
"Spanish law does discriminate among(Spanish)
citizens because of their religion, and for
that reason it regards Jews who originally
came from Spain as Spanish.." Letter from
Spanish Consul General to France Bernardo
Rolland, July 23, 1942
Letter by the Spanish Consul General to France
in Paris Bernardo Rolland with regards to
anti-Semitic laws imposed on all Jews, including
Spanish nationals living in France, by the
French Government at the behest of the Germans
in 1942:
"Spanish law does not discriminate among(Spanish)
citizens because of there religion, and for that
reason it regards Jews who _originally_ came from
Spain as Spanards, despite their Jewish religion.
For this reason, I would be grateful if the French
authorities and the occupying power(Germans)would
be good enough not to impose upon them(the Spanish
Jews) those laws that apply to Jews"
Source: Note 49 CDJC, 32/180A, reply from Rolland,
July 23,1942, to letter from the Commissariat
General aux Questions Juives, July 22, 1942.
Jim
D. Spencer Hines
As was Hitler -- perhaps.
DSH
"JCarew" <oth...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:AbcIf.12732$NS6....@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
D. Spencer Hines
'Nuff Said.
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:11v2k9r...@corp.supernews.com...
> My objection to Social Democrats is they don't seem to understand the
> erosive effects on human beings of persistent paternalism. IMO a species
> needs to struggle to reach its true potential and filling out bureaucratic
> forms isn't sufficient. Because we no longer need to hunt to survive, we
> have lost our ability to track game and our natural senses are no longer
> developed. Because we are literate, we have lost our ability to memorize.
> Because we are no longer farmers, we have lost touch with nature and the
> natural rhythm of the seasons. We have already lost the ability to take
> care of ourselves outside of society. I'm afraid we will soon loose any
> sense of self as opposed to being merely a functional part of the larger
> society like worker bees in a hive. It may be the future but I'm glad I
> won't live to see it. -the Troll
JCarew
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote
> Interesting...
>
> As was Hitler -- perhaps.
As to Franco's Jewish origins here,s a quote
from "Spain, the Jews, and Franco" by Haim
Avni, page 66, on the subject
"Two widely held beliefs might have reinforced
Spain's ability to undertake Jewish rescue. One
concerned the supposed Jewish origins of Franco,
which for the Germans would have made Spanish
intervention on behalf of the Jews understandable.
The other concerned Jewish influence in the West,
which was fanned by German propaganda. As the
Allies gained the upper hand, Spain, eager to
curry favor, for that reason could have sought
to provide assistance to Jews wherever asked to
do so."
Jim
D. Spencer Hines
Huguenot ancestors in the 17th Century.
Bless 'Em...
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:11v2lii...@corp.supernews.com...
D. Spencer Hines
Jews.
Understandable.
In my experience, even Jews do that.
Particularly in New York City.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
Sholem Aleichem
Deus Vult
Ako...@aol.com
short little book "The Conquest of Red Spain", another was at the end
(starting around page 1000) of "Decisive Battles: Their Influence Upon
History and Civilization" (supposedly the entire stock of that book,
published in 1940, was destroyed by German bombing of London during the
blitz, but I came across a copy in a library once). They are mainly
interesting in showing Fuller's attitude during a period when it looked
like Facism was going to win. He later said he was glad all the copies
had been destroyed :-)
They were both interesting books though ...
hippo
"JCarew" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote
Yup, that was the line of argument. Hitler needed Spanish wolfram and iron
ore too much to argue. -the Troll
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> Similar, but not exactly the same, to the experiences of your and my
> Huguenot ancestors in the 17th Century.
>
> Bless 'Em...
Yup, mine got out through England. They certainly would not have been safe
in Spain. -the Troll
hippo
"JCarew" wrote in message
Neither is right. The Spanish had worked with expat Spanish Jews in North
Africa and elsewhere in the Med. for centuries and my brother-in-law's
family escaped into Spain in 1940, days before the fall of France when it
appeared Hitler was a winner. OTOH Franco was ruthless with Jews captured
fighting for the International Brigades or any part of the Republican aparat
and gave refuge to prominent Nazis after the war. Franco counted on
Churchill, with whom he had developed an understanding, Allied war
weariness, and his million man veteran army to protect him. The few post-war
incursions into Spain by French backed ex-Republicans didn't make it ten
miles past the mountains before they were sold out to the Guardia Civil by
local Aragonese farmers. -the Troll
a.spencer3
"TOliver" <tolive...@Hot.rr.com> wrote in message
news:DM8If.4896$Ob5...@tornado.texas.rr.com...
Have you spoken to Spanuiards at large post-Franco?
Surreyman
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> Apposite, Well Stated And On Target.
Yup, I figure we have a decade or two left at least before the majority
caves in to the gray anonymity of the ant farm. -the Troll
William Black
"a.spencer3" <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:B7iIf.32459$K42....@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> For Gawd's sake!
> Have you spoken to Spanuiards at large post-Franco?
I shouldn't bother mate.
I've grown sick of people lauding a Fascist leader who overthrew a legally
elected government because their modern politics disagrees with a free and
fair election seventy odd years ago.
It makes me want to puke.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Fred J. McCall
:
:"a.spencer3" <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
:news:B7iIf.32459$K42....@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
:
:> For Gawd's sake!
:> Have you spoken to Spanuiards at large post-Franco?
:
:I shouldn't bother mate.
:
:I've grown sick of people lauding a Fascist leader who overthrew a legally
:elected government because their modern politics disagrees with a free and
:fair election seventy odd years ago.
:
:It makes me want to puke.
But if he'd been a Marxist rather than a Fascist you would be the one
doing the lauding....
--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates
Keith W
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dssp0q$t0s$1...@news.freedom2surf.net...
>
> "a.spencer3" <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:B7iIf.32459$K42....@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
>
>> For Gawd's sake!
>> Have you spoken to Spanuiards at large post-Franco?
>
> I shouldn't bother mate.
>
> I've grown sick of people lauding a Fascist leader who overthrew a legally
> elected government because their modern politics disagrees with a free and
> fair election seventy odd years ago.
>
While I have no time for Franco this were a little more complex than that.
The leftists had deposed the President putting their own candidate
in the office and were orchestrating a series of assassinations of
opposition politicians including José Calvo Sotelo, a former finance
minister.
It was his Killing by Assault Guards officers (an urban paramilitary police
force
controlled by republican officials) that sparked the revolution.
A legally elected government is one thing but when it starts murdering
opposition leaders it cant really complain about armed insurrection.
Keith
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William Black
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:r6q3v1hpbika151e5...@4ax.com...
> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> :
> :"a.spencer3" <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> :news:B7iIf.32459$K42....@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> :
> :> For Gawd's sake!
> :> Have you spoken to Spanuiards at large post-Franco?
> :
> :I shouldn't bother mate.
> :
> :I've grown sick of people lauding a Fascist leader who overthrew a
legally
> :elected government because their modern politics disagrees with a free
and
> :fair election seventy odd years ago.
> :
> :It makes me want to puke.
>
> But if he'd been a Marxist rather than a Fascist you would be the one
> doing the lauding....
See what I mean...
William Black
"Keith W" <keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1139927...@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
>
> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:dssp0q$t0s$1...@news.freedom2surf.net...
> >
> > "a.spencer3" <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:B7iIf.32459$K42....@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> >
> >> For Gawd's sake!
> >> Have you spoken to Spanuiards at large post-Franco?
> >
> > I shouldn't bother mate.
> >
> > I've grown sick of people lauding a Fascist leader who overthrew a
legally
> > elected government because their modern politics disagrees with a free
and
> > fair election seventy odd years ago.
> >
>
> While I have no time for Franco this were a little more complex than that.
> The leftists had deposed the President putting their own candidate
> in the office and were orchestrating a series of assassinations of
> opposition politicians including José Calvo Sotelo, a former finance
> minister.
>
> It was his Killing by Assault Guards officers (an urban paramilitary
police
> force
> controlled by republican officials) that sparked the revolution.
>
> A legally elected government is one thing but when it starts murdering
> opposition leaders it cant really complain about armed insurrection.
Since when was the military fighting it's own government an 'insurrection'?
It was a coup.
TOliver
"D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HodIf.226$VJ1....@eagle.america.net...
The overnight brouha over the quail hunt speaks volumes for our descent from
grace....
While I don't recall (and I guess I would) ever having hit somebody in the
face with errant pellets, I've certainly hit a few jackets and the seats of
levis in my time (and been struck a time or two, mostly long range while
dove hunting). It's "the hazard" of the sport. Even the best of quail dogs
may have a scarred rear end to show for it.
My respect for the VP rose. He hunts quail with a 28 gauge, not only highly
"sporting" if that's what moves you, but an absolute indicator that he's a
better shot than 95% of the small segment of the populace who hunt quail.
Although not quite as venturesome as hunting dove with a 28, it takes both
vast experience, a damn good eye and far better than average motor skills,
since at 25 yards the pattern of an open choked 28 is about 25% the size of
that of a 12.
Incidentally, the quail at the Armstrong Ranch are "wild", not the "kicked
out of a box for the hunt" sort, although their numbers are augemented each
year by the release of a number of new chicks long before the season. It's
mostly brush country, flattish, but hard hunting. Quail hunting has become
more and more a wealthy hunters' sport, as the costs of maintaining good
habitat and a stable poipulation have skyrocketed.
As for Lawyer Whittington, an Austin fixture for years, Austin Lawyers
can't be killed by shotguns, etc., belonging to a breed unlikely to succumb
to anything less than wrapping in wreaths of garlic, stabbing with silver
spikes or severe pummeling with a crucifix.
TMO
Fred J. McCall
:"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
:news:r6q3v1hpbika151e5...@4ax.com...
:>
:> But if he'd been a Marxist rather than a Fascist you would be the one
:> doing the lauding....
:
:See what I mean...
Yes, we've all seen what you mean, Wee Willie. It's why I made the
comment in the first place.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
TOliver
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dssp0q$t0s$1...@news.freedom2surf.net...
>
> news:B7iIf.32459$K42....@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
>
>> For Gawd's sake!
>> Have you spoken to Spanuiards at large post-Franco?
>
> I shouldn't bother mate.
>
> I've grown sick of people lauding a Fascist leader who overthrew a legally
> elected government because their modern politics disagrees with a free and
> fair election seventy odd years ago.
>
> It makes me want to puke.
>
Reality bites, Wm, and few contributions to Franco's long stranglehold on
Spain meant more than the flow of British tourist and expat dollars. By my
time, even hordes of Labor Party members had given up the pebbly strands of
your coasts for the Costa Brava.
There's quite a distance between understanding Franco and admiring him.
Obviously, the physical removal of a large portion of the population which
opposed him eased the problems of governance, and the gentle efforts of the
Guardia - I did see a pair shoot a merchant seaman one night in
Barc...Caught him pissing upon the CColumbus pediment - certainly assisted
in the regime's ability to hold power. All those nasty old rightists did
mangae a relatively smooth and bloodless transfer of power when their day
was done - aside from the Basque separatists who'll never be satisfied - and
it seems millions of young Spaniards emerged from the dark mantle of the
Spanish Brand of Fascism capable of structuring and maintaining an open
society and representative institutions of government.
As for over-throwing governments. legal or legally elected, the Falange
could hardly claim a monoploy on that sport.
TMO
TMO
William Black
>
> As for over-throwing governments. legal or legally elected, the Falange
> could hardly claim a monoploy on that sport.
True.
Very few have done so against right wing governments though, except in
South America anyway :-)
Keith W
>
>> >
>>
>> While I have no time for Franco this were a little more complex than
>> that.
>> The leftists had deposed the President putting their own candidate
>> in the office and were orchestrating a series of assassinations of
>> opposition politicians including José Calvo Sotelo, a former finance
>> minister.
>>
>> It was his Killing by Assault Guards officers (an urban paramilitary
> police
>> force
>> controlled by republican officials) that sparked the revolution.
>>
>> A legally elected government is one thing but when it starts murdering
>> opposition leaders it cant really complain about armed insurrection.
>
> Since when was the military fighting it's own government an
> 'insurrection'?
>
My dictionary defines insurrection as
The act or an instance of open revolt against civil authority or a
constituted government.
It seems to fit.
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:11v3861...@corp.supernews.com...
D. Spencer Hines
> The leftists had deposed the President putting their own candidate
> in the office and were orchestrating a series of assassinations of
> opposition politicians including José Calvo Sotelo, a former finance
> minister.
>
> It was his Killing by Assault Guards officers (an urban paramilitary
> police force controlled by republican officials) that sparked the
> revolution.
>
> A legally elected government is one thing but when it starts murdering
> opposition leaders it can't really complain about armed insurrection.
>
> Keith
---------------------------------------------------------------
Those are just _Inconvenient Historical Facts, Best Ignored_ to Black.
DSH
"Keith W" <keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1139927...@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
>
D. Spencer Hines
This was just a standard hunting accident -- tempest in a teapot.
DSH
"Fred J. McCall" <fmc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ae64v1do5604jqu3o...@4ax.com...
> "William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> :It sounds like a nasty accident. In the UK he'd almost certainly lose
> :his shotgun certificate until a police investigation decided if he was a
> :fit person to be trusted with a shotgun again (or not)...
>
> While in the free countries of the world we don't require a government
> 'certificate' to be allowed to have a weapon.
>
> --
> "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
> temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> -- Benjamin Franklin
William Black
> Wee Willie Black lives under the British Nanny State -- and he LOVES it.
>
> This was just a standard hunting accident -- tempest in a teapot.
So you're in favour of elderly politicians blasting people by accident?
D. Spencer Hines
of himself over this incident.
DSH
-------------------------------------------
"NBC REPORTER TO WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: 'DON'T BE A JERK'"
Tue Feb 14 2006
NBCNEWS chief White House correspondent David Gregory warned President
Bush's spokesman on Monday not to be a "jerk!"
The heated exchange came during a press gathering at the White House.
Gregory asked White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan about the Cheney
hunting accident.
'David, hold on, the cameras aren't on right now,' McClellan replied. 'You
can do this later.'
'Don't accuse me of trying to pose to the cameras,' Gregory said, voice
rising. 'Don't be a jerk to me personally when I'm asking you a serious
question.'
'You don't have to yell,' McClellan said.
'I will yell,'' said Gregory, pointing a finger at McCellan at his dais. 'If
you want to use that podium to try to take shots at me personally, which I
don't appreciate, then I will raise my voice, because that's wrong.'
'Calm down, Dave, calm down,' said McClellan.
'I'll calm down when I feel like calming down,' Gregory said. 'You answer
the question.'
'I have answered the question,' said McClellan, who had maintained that the
vice president's office was in charge of getting the information out and
worked with the ranch owner to do that. 'I'm sorry you're getting all riled
up about.'
'I am riled up,' Gregory said, 'because you're not answering the question.'"
----------------------------
DSH
D. Spencer Hines
His parents followed reports about it quite closely.
It was a very exciting event for American Lefties.
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:11v4qrj...@corp.supernews.com...
> No sweat. It is a fascinating but difficult period to follow. The war was
> pure chaos for the first few months with hold-out garrisons all over the
> place and disconnected bits of territory here and there. It's important to
> have good maps in any book you start with remembering the 'lines' most
> places were jus little outpost units on top of hills which hardly fired a
> shot from one month to the next. A great read to start with is Cecil Eby's
> 'Siege of the Alcazar', probably the single best known event of the
> war. -the Troll
Grey Satterfield
"a.spencer3" <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> "TOliver" <tolive...@Hot.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:DM8If.4896$Ob5...@tornado.texas.rr.com...
>> Brits of diverse ideology, Rodinka Russians and USAians of varying sorts)
>> sort of the Olympic medalists of ethnocentrism.
>>
>> For a Spanish officer of Franco's generation, the "Tradition" and the
>> paramount nature of the Church when it came to mores and social conduct were
>> pillars of existence, and Spain had been badly treated by foreigners since
>> the dawn of time. He expected the Germans and Italians to depart, having
>> bigger fish to fry and little to gain after the "practice match". He had
>> every reason to expect that the Russians and asosrted lLeftist foreigners
>> would remain and assuredly destroy society, the tradition and the Church (and
>> with them Spain).
>>
>> Post-war, the government added substantial social programs as vehicles for
>> managing the affection and potential disaffection of the populace. That the
>> Falange lasted so long is a salute to Franco's shrewd exercise of power, the
>> level of control over social and cultural institutions, enough popular
>> "sweeteners" to placate the populace, and the almost unwavering support of
>> enough Spaniards who had seen enoough violence to avoid a repeat of it.
>>
> For Gawd's sake!
> Have you spoken to Spanuiards at large post-Franco?
"For Gawd's sake," yourself! I wasn't aware that "Spanuiards [sic] at large
post-Franco" had been the topic of discussion in this thread -- see the
thread title above.
Grey Satterfield
Grey Satterfield
Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> "a.spencer3" <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:B7iIf.32459$K42....@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
>
>> For Gawd's sake!
>> Have you spoken to Spanuiards at large post-Franco?
>
> I shouldn't bother mate.
>
> I've grown sick of people lauding a Fascist leader who overthrew a legally
> elected government because their modern politics disagrees with a free and
> fair election seventy odd years ago.
>
> It makes me want to puke.
My God, Communism seems to still rule us from the grave!
Grey Satterfield
D. Spencer Hines
>
> Grey Satterfield
Yep, the Former Communist Sympathizers and naive little fellow travelers are
still with us.
They, like the former KGB officer, Vladimir Putin, mourn the passing of the
Soviet Union and see it as a Great Tragedy.
Because these Left-Wing, Anti-American Europeans saw the Soviet Union as a
useful COUNTERWEIGHT to the United States.
Vide Graham Greene.
We see that in Greene's _The Quiet American_.
DSH
"Grey Satterfield" <grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote in message
news:C017DA87.2636A%grey.sat...@oscn.net...
Howard C. Berkowitz
<grey.sat...@oscn.net> wrote:
> On 2/13/06 2:32 PM, in article %16If.172$VJ1....@eagle.america.net, "D.
> Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
> > news:11v1k06...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> >> OK, we'll go back to my made-up idea of etho-centrism. Franco was an
> >> extreme Nationalist which included especially the Spanish (traditional)
> >> culture and character. He was nearly as much opposed to Left ideologies
> >> because they were foreign ideas imported into Spain as he was for their
> >> tenets of belief. Most fighting for the Popular Front, except for the
> >> comparatively few Stalinists, hated foreign, especially Soviet,
> >> interference. -the Troll
> >
> >
> > That is also one of the endearing traits possessed by Margaret Thatcher.
> >
> > She hates Socialist and Communist ideas because they are _Foreign
> > Importations From The Decadent Continent_ just as much as she hates them for
> > their content.
> >
> > She is correct, of course.
> >
> > The ideas of John Locke, Adam Smith, Edmund Burke and John Stuart Mill are
> > FAR superior to those of the scruffy little Socialist and Communist
> > ragamuffins on the Continent.
> >
> > DSH
>
> Indeed, the problem with socialism in all its permutations is that its
> advocates refuse to acknowledge human nature. Without understanding human
> nature there can be no understanding economics.
>
> Grey Satterfield
In the desire for precision, it is well to remember, as many do not,
that socialism is indeed an economic system. There's no good general
term for what many Americans improperly call socialism, but are more
the "safety net" agreed as characteristic of a sane society -- such
things as firefighting and military at a rather obvious end, and
getting into public health, education, and preventive medicine as
things get more blurred.
I have observed that Europeans seem to think of safety net functions,
which can operate in a quite capitalist society, under the rubric of
"social democracy". There's really no equivalent American term that
doesn't tend to have an ideological bias. To me, for example,
"socialized medicine" refers to governmental control of all healthcare
delivery. It is possible to have universal health care, ironically, in
a system more characteristic of a classic free market than the current
US system.
Howard C. Berkowitz
<hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote:
Of course, to be credible, any attempt to overthrow Spanish government
must get significantly out of the mountains. The reign in Spain falls
mainly in the plains.
hippo
"Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote in message
> In article hippo wrote:
> Of course, to be credible, any attempt to overthrow Spanish government
> must get significantly out of the mountains. The reign in Spain falls
> mainly in the plains.
Aw, geez, a Gerona, but incidentally true. It wasn't until the creation of
the Guardia Civil in 1844, Spain's paramilitary rural police, that the many
mountains regions were finally brought under government control. -the Troll
D. Spencer Hines
a train from Barcelona some years ago.
I actually got them to talk politics, guardedly -- all this was in Spanish.
Just the three of us in a compartment alone.
They were somewhat suspicious of me at first, but soon relaxed.
Those caps they wear are particularly impressive.
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:11v552l...@corp.supernews.com...
Keith W
"Robert" <the_erber...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:MTE0MDAwNzQ4My5ze...@nulluser.com...
> Keith W wrote:
>
>>
>> A legally elected government is one thing but when it starts murdering
>> opposition leaders it cant really complain about armed insurrection.
>>
>> Keith
>
> As I under it, both 'leftists' and 'rightists' were murdering each
> other.
>
Indeed
> What proof do you have have that this was a government ordered
> execution?
>
>
The murderers worked for the government which chose not
to order their arrest. Thats a pretty good indication in my book.
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
>I had a very pleasant conversation with two members of the Guardia Civil on
> a train from Barcelona some years ago.
>
> I actually got them to talk politics, guardedly -- all this was in
> Spanish.
>
> Just the three of us in a compartment alone.
>
> They were somewhat suspicious of me at first, but soon relaxed.
>
> Those caps they wear are particularly impressive.
They were leather and probably still are. They count as helmets.
They are one of the best police forces in the world. A naval officer
stationed at Rota with naval intel. became suspicious about a sailor being
involved with drugs. He checked with the local Guardia and found they had a
dossier on him an inch thick. IMO it is the Guardia model which should have
been adopted for the Iraqi police. -the Troll
TOliver
"hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote ...
force, the key to the long term "success" of the Guardia (at least in their
renowned capability to maintain order and deal with street crime) has been
(or at least was...) the requirement that no officer could serve in the
province of his birth/traditional roots. Keeps down corruption and avoids
"Brother in law" treatment....
TMO
TOliver
"D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote ...
>I had a very pleasant conversation with two members of the Guardia Civil on
> a train from Barcelona some years ago.
>
> I actually got them to talk politics, guardedly -- all this was in
> Spanish.
>
> Just the three of us in a compartment alone.
>
> They were somewhat suspicious of me at first, but soon relaxed.
>
> Those caps they wear are particularly impressive.
>
The post Civil War fiat that outlawed the speaking of Catalan in Catalonia
and the Balearics was apparently "strongly" enforced by the Guardia.
I've never doubted the forcefullness of their response since watching from
Barcelona's Fleet Landing as a pair of the varnished hat brigade snuffed a
drunken merchant seaman whose crime had been to piss on the base of the
Columbus monument, then to of all things actively resist arrest. Between
becoming acquainted with the steel shod butt of one of the officer's 7mm
Mauser carbine and absorbing a few 9mm Largo from the other's old Bergman
smg, the wages of sin were "paid in full". The gossip did go round the
ship quickly, the moral of the tale being obvious, "Don't F*ck with the
Guardia!", just as the famous (but somewhat unlikely?) LANTFLT anecdote of
the Turkish DD which got underway from Norfolk to hang a sailor beyond the
three mile limit, rather than turn him oiver for prosecution by the local
authorities.
TMO
hippo
"TOliver" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote ...
Yup, otherwise rife in Latin societies. Like the Foreign Legions (both
French and Spanish), the Guardia Civil is a self-contained culture with its
own traditions and values. Regular Army officers are, or were, rotated
through its command structure to keep down cronyism and other ingrown
abuses. Their habit of meeting out rough justice on the spot for minor
offenses saves a fortune in court and other criminal justice costs and
spares the offender a criminal record. -the Troll
hippo
"Robert" wrote in message
> hippo wrote:
>> OK, we'll go back to my made-up idea of etho-centrism. Franco was an
> extreme
>> Nationalist which included especially the Spanish (traditional)
> culture and
>> character. He was nearly as much opposed to Left ideologies because
> they
>> were foreign ideas imported into Spain as he was for their tenets of
> belief.
>> Most fighting for the Popular Front, except for the comparatively few
>> Stalinists, hated foreign, especially Soviet, interference.
>
> That isn't true. Most wanted more foreign interference once it became
> evident that Franco was supplied by Hitler and Mussolini who ignored
> the League of Nations. If the Brits and French had supplied the same
> munitions and resources that the Hitler and Mussolini had, the
> Republicans would have won.
Help, yes, interference, no. Republicans received as much or more military
equipment from their sources as Franco from his according to modern
research. The problem for the Republicans was it was unevenly distributed
depending on the unit and its makeup. The International Brigades and
Communist Fifth Regiment forces got the excellent Soviet equipment while the
POUM and Anarchist units got Mexican, French, Yugoslav, Belgian, Czech, and
obsolete US arms.
> The socialists, Trotskists and the CNT/FAI to a certain extent were
> extremely internationalist in outlook. The Spanish Communist Party was
> nominally internationalist even if eventually totally controlled by
> Stalin. The Republicans were unfortuantly reliant on Stalin as he was
> the only power to give military aid but it came with a unpaletable
> price to some.
Spanish Anarchists were isolated and had no friends outside of Spain. They
were in no way 'international' because they were enemies of Socialists and
Communists alike. There were two Communist parties in Spain, Trotskyites
(POUM) and Comintern (PCE), both bitter enemies. The Republic bought
military equipment all over the world. The best and by far the largest
quantity of it was Soviet. The Republic received donations, military and
medical supplies, volunteer workers, and the like from many countries, not
just the USSR. -the Troll
D. Spencer Hines
causes?
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:11v6met...@corp.supernews.com...
> My knee-jerk Jewish brother-in-law hates Franco even though escaping into
> Spain saved his life and the lives of his family. He does because the
> bullshit left-wing authors and press say he was a conservative (which is
> true) and a Fascist (which isn't). History and logic play not the
> slightest part in his thought and evaluative processes and never
> have. -the Troll
William Black
"D. Spencer Hines" <pogue...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:NIJIf.12$0W3...@eagle.america.net...
> Why is it so many Jews were attracted to Communism and other Left-Wing
> causes?
Because the right refused them any voice and actively persecuted them.
The European political parties called 'Christian Democrat' were called that
because it meant 'No Jews here'.
hippo
"Robert" wrote in message
> hippo wrote:
>> Robert Stradling has written at least two recent well researched
> books on
>> the period which cover individual Europeans joining Franco's side. It
> wasn't
>> much advertised at the time but thousands of Europeans, and even
> Americans,
>> joined up to fight for Franco. I had a French Monarchist step-father
> who was
>> one of them. Like Europeans on the Left, they usually became
> disillusioned
>> from their original simplistic idea that the civil war in Spain was
> part of
>> a world movement.
>
> In fact, the left-wingers draw to the Republican side became
> disillusioned by the faction fighting in the Republican camp rather
> than what you have stated.
That too but later.
> They found Franco's Spain ethnocentric and deeply
>> suspicious of all outsiders
> Franco's Spain didn't exist - except in the Franco controlled areas and
> not surprising considering the extreme right wing and fascist factions
> aligned to the rebel Franco, were xenophobic and many were racist.
....which was half of the land area more-or-less depending on the time
period. The Nationalists were sectarian well enough but the charge of racism
is bullshit. Probably a sixth of the Nationalist Army was made up of Berber
tribesmen from Morocco. More foreigners fought for Franco than did for the
Republic.
>> in what the Spanish themselves clearly saw as a
>> purely Spanish war fought for Spanish reasons centered deeply in
> their own
>> history.
>
> Talk about cherry picking! Many Spanish thought entirely the opposite
> and were very internalist in outlook. To say that the it was a purely
> Spanish war fought for Spanish reasons is nonsense. On the other hand
> there were some unique features to the war that were perculiary Spanish
> but you will find perculiar features to almost any conflict of that era.
>
> Best book which gives a real insight into the Civil War is 'Blood of
> Spain: An Oral History of the Spanish Civil War ' by Ronald Fraser.
> Most of the book is interviews with all participants on all sides (a
> lot). Fraser is of the left but I didn't note any particular 'bias'.
The Comintern Communists (PCE) numbered only 40,000 members in 1936 and the
POUM (which had already broken from the international Trotskyite movement)
30,000. Add several hundred thousand radical Socialists and that's it for
your internationally minded. Anarchists, by far the largest left wing party,
and Basque and Catalonian separatists were locally focused. The Falange
looked to Germany and Italy for inspiration but was entirely Spanish and
anti-internationalist along with all the other Nationalist parties.
Fraser's book is anecdotal and sensational, not history. It makes no attempt
to be complete or inclusive, and deals mostly with Republican held areas of
Spain. -the Troll
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
D. Spencer Hines
Andre Marty was the guy who vetted people going into the International
Brigades, right? Stalin's Enforcer.
There is a street in Paris named after him -- or was.
D. Spencer Hines
going down the Spanish Coast, were very polite and even soft-spoken.
They both had rifles, which they kept upright between their knees at all
times, and pistols.
We had a very pleasant conversation, mostly in Spanish, about Spain and
Spanish culture.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Keith Willshaw
"Robert" <the_erber...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> Keith W wrote:
>
>> "Robert" <the_erber...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:MTE0MDAwNzQ4My5ze...@nulluser.com...
>> > Keith W wrote:
>> >
>>
>> >>
>> >> A legally elected government is one thing but when it starts
> murdering
>> >> opposition leaders it cant really complain about armed
> insurrection.
>> >>
>> >> Keith
>> >
>> > As I under it, both 'leftists' and 'rightists' were murdering each
>> > other.
>> >
>>
>> Indeed
>>
>> > What proof do you have have that this was a government ordered
>> > execution?
>> >
>> >
>>
>> The murderers worked for the government which chose not
>> to order their arrest. Thats a pretty good indication in my book.
>
> IIRC ( I last studied this war in the 1980s), The Assualt Guards were a
> creation of a goverment to serve the Republican state against attacks
> from left and right and as a counter-balance to the Guardia Civil which
> had been infiltrated/takn over by rightists.
>
Indeed and one way they did this was by assassinating
those the republic saw as a threat.
> However, have you got any URLs so we can check to substantiate your
> claims?
>
If you think URL's are proof of anything other than how easy it
is to build a web site you are being excessively naive however
a google search will produce plenty of hits.
Keith
JCarew
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote
>Was Andre Marty Jewish?
It all depends if his mother was Jewish?
Except in the case of Reformed Jews.
Jim
D. Spencer Hines
pogues -- probably, _au fond_, no more than Pimply-Faced Kids [PFK's] --
have the loony idea that the way to WIN Intellectual Arguments is by
employing the sophomoric tactic of _Dueling URL's_ [DURL's].
Hilarious!
DSH
"Keith Willshaw" <keith...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dt09t1$c5v$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
> "Robert" <the_erber...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:MTE0MDAxNzI3MC5ze...@nulluser.com...
>> However, have you got any URLs so we can check to substantiate your
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> Why is it so many Jews were attracted to Communism and other Left-Wing
> causes?
I think it is because of having been a persecuted minority for so many
centuries they were drawn to the international aspects of Communism. Their
post Diaspora culture was/is international if you think about it.
In a single state world there presumably would be no nationalism and
everyone would be a minority religion and race. It's hard for us to credit
but I saw it in my brother-in-law's face in Israel. It is the one place on
the earth where Jews are not a minority. Too, intellectuals are only happy
with intellectual solutions and Marx was a Jew with an intellectual
solution.
I figured out in prep school that Marxism wouldn't and couldn't work so it
can't be all that difficult to understand, but it has become a central tenet
of their belief system and they are blinded by it in much in the same way
Christians can be. -the Troll
D. Spencer Hines
What about Andre Marty?
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:11v7rj3...@corp.supernews.com...
D. Spencer Hines
<http://www.yale.edu/annals/Reviews/review_texts/Pryce-Jones_on_Radosh_National_Review_06.23.01.htm>
"National Review, July 23, 2001 v53 i14 pNA
Experiment in Terror. Review by David Pryce-Jones.
Spain Betrayed: The Soviet Union in the Spanish Civil War, edited by Ronald
Radosh, Mary R. Habeck, and Grigory Sevostianov (Yale, 537 pp., $35)
To contemporaries, the Spanish Civil War seemed an epic, even biblical,
struggle between Communism and Fascism, in other words between good and
evil. And to most contemporaries, the outcome was appalling: The Fascist
victory meant that there was no chance to put Communism into practice in
western Europe, and no chance either to stop Hitler in his tracks.
Communists and their supporters have argued ever since that they alone made
any serious attempt to head off the coming world war. Whatever bad things
Communists may have done elsewhere, in Spain their cause was pure to the
point of being romantic. As a result of a good many histories and memoirs,
that remains today the generally accepted opinion.
Spain Betrayed is a formidable demolition of this myth. It consists of a
collection of 81 previously unpublished documents from the Russian State
Military Archives, all of them reports from Soviet agents and advisers in
the field during the civil war. The material is specialized, to be sure, an
account of day-to-day political and military events, sometimes in the most
minute detail, but the editors place everything in context with brief and
helpful introductory commentaries. One of them, Ronald Radosh, is a former
Communist whose uncle fought in Spain. In recent writings, including an
autobiography, Radosh has been coming to terms with his previous disastrous
misjudgments, and this book is another step in that process. The two other
editors are academics: Mary R. Habeck of Yale and Grigory Sevostianov of
Moscow's Institute of Universal History.
HONEST ACADEMICS! PRAISE THE LORD! -- DSH
One way or another, these documents all went through the Comintern, the
bureau in Moscow that ran Soviet operations abroad for Stalin. The Comintern
could call on the services of its own operatives; the secret police, later
called the KGB; military intelligence or the GRU; and the European Communist
parties. Taken together, these documents show that Stalin aimed to transform
Spain into a Soviet satellite. In that case, he would have extended the
Communist reach, and encircled both Germany and France."...
-------------------------------------------------------
hippo
"William Black" wrote in message
> "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
>> Why is it so many Jews were attracted to Communism and other Left-Wing
>> causes?
>
> Because the right refused them any voice and actively persecuted them.
>
> The European political parties called 'Christian Democrat' were called
> that
> because it meant 'No Jews here'.
Crap, everyone persecuted them until as recently as the past century with
the exception of a handful of fair minded kings, and 'Christian Democrat' is
meaningless in a secular world. -the Troll
William Black
First of all, Jewish experience seems to indicate that 'everyone is out to
get them', and with some justice.
In the nineteenth century the various emergent Socialist philosophies seemed
to offer a way forward for them, and many early Socialist theorists were
Jewish.
The right wing had established itself as the voice of reaction and so
invariably sided against change, and Jewish emancipation throughout the
world required change.
Nathan Rothschild was the first Jewish MP. Now no-one thinks of the head
of the Rothschild banking family as some sort of revolutionary and remember
that he was MP for the City of London, essentially representing the
financial institutions in parliament. He had to wait for eleven years to be
able to take that seat because of blind prejudice.
And now the origin of the Christian Democrat movement. They came about in
Germany as a political party that represented something acceptable to the
'ultras' who threatened the whole process of change. In order to appease
the current order they had to have a political party that was 'none
threatening'. A fundamental part of that 'None threatening' aspect was 'No
Jews here'.
Christian Democrat parties in Europe did not accept Jewish members until
after WWII.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
an origin that it spends a lot of time pretending didn't happen.
Keith W
"Robert" <the_erber...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> Keith Willshaw wrote:
>> If you think URL's are proof of anything other than how easy it
>> is to build a web site you are being excessively naive however
>> a google search will produce plenty of hits.
>
> URLS to a credible source just mean that people can validate your
> source and scrutinise the evidence rather then either type out chunks
> of text from a book and the other person buying the book.
>
> However, you are clearly a blow-hard, have a superficial knowledge of a
> admittedly complicated event and probably have never even spoken to a
> Spaniard.
>
Lack of substantive response and predictable resort to ad hominem
noted.
> You and Hines, I'm sure, make a good team. Two tossers two.
>
> EOD
>
Translation - I've lost this argument so I'm going to shout insults and
then run away.
Keith
D. Spencer Hines
"Fortress Oahu" as the United States Army called it.
Hilarious!
DSH
"a.spencer3" <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:q23Jf.45978$mf2....@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
> Parachutes and gliders onto the Rock?
> Have you ever been there?
> You really are being very fanciful here.
> The Rock itself would have held out for as long as it took WWII artillery
> to
> demolish a mountain of limestone.
> Do you realise that Gib was officially classified as the most securely
> fortified position of WWII?
>
> Surreyman
D. Spencer Hines
> then run away.
>
> Keith
Bingo!
Another Pimply Faced Kid [PFK] bites the dust.
We're killing them off like flies.
DSH
"Keith W" <keith...@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dt26vt$5ln$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> "Robert" <the_erber...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> Lack of substantive response and predictable resort to ad hominem
hippo
"William Black" wrote in message
> "hippo" wrote in message
>> "William Black" wrote in message
>>
>> > "D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
>>
>> >> Why is it so many Jews were attracted to Communism and other Left-Wing
>> >> causes?
>> >
>> > Because the right refused them any voice and actively persecuted them.
>> >
>> > The European political parties called 'Christian Democrat' were called
>> > that
>> > because it meant 'No Jews here'.
>>
>> Crap, everyone persecuted them until as recently as the past century with
>> the exception of a handful of fair minded kings, and 'Christian Democrat'
> is
>> meaningless in a secular world.
>
> First of all, Jewish experience seems to indicate that 'everyone is out
> to
> get them', and with some justice.
I agree. It doesn't make me feel great being a member of a persecuting
majority either if that makes any difference. Guilt is *not*, however, why I
support Israel as do most American Conservatives. I do because Israel had
been a steadfast ally since the beginning through some very hard times,
because many Israeli citizens are also US citizens, because I believe the
Jews should have their own state, and because I see Israel as a modern,
democratic, and enlightened state in the midst of a black abyss of
superstition, ignorance, corruption, and evil intent. I also trust Christian
holy sites in their hands.
> In the nineteenth century the various emergent Socialist philosophies
> seemed
> to offer a way forward for them, and many early Socialist theorists were
> Jewish.
>
> The right wing had established itself as the voice of reaction and so
> invariably sided against change, and Jewish emancipation throughout the
> world required change.
>
> Nathan Rothschild was the first Jewish MP. Now no-one thinks of the head
> of the Rothschild banking family as some sort of revolutionary and
> remember
> that he was MP for the City of London, essentially representing the
> financial institutions in parliament. He had to wait for eleven years to
> be
> able to take that seat because of blind prejudice.
>
> And now the origin of the Christian Democrat movement. They came about in
> Germany as a political party that represented something acceptable to the
> 'ultras' who threatened the whole process of change. In order to appease
> the current order they had to have a political party that was 'none
> threatening'. A fundamental part of that 'None threatening' aspect was
> 'No
> Jews here'.
>
> Christian Democrat parties in Europe did not accept Jewish members until
> after WWII.
I suppose I hate blind prejudice more than most and agree completely with
you, but Conservatives are not reactive against the Left because many of its
proponents have been Jewish or against Jews because many support Left
causes. It reacts against Socialism because it does not believe society can
or should be 'managed' by some rigid intellectually derived plan. It
believes that state centrism is wrong, that internationalism is an idea way
before its time, that individuals rather than the state is the proper center
of political power, that governments are never to be trusted, even
conservative ones, that the capitalist-democratic system we now have is
adaptive and fair enough in its present form, and most important, that
government paternalism is just as erosive to individuals, and thereby
society, as is individual or familial paternalism. We do not want to become
a society of sheep because some early industrial social philosopher thought
it would be a good idea. -the Troll
hippo
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote in message
> Yep...
>
> What about Andre Marty?
Marty was a certifiable paranoid with authority problems and a member of the
executive of the Comintern. He should never have been entrusted with the
leadership of a single man let alone the support mechanism of the IBs. He
probably did more to destroy the trust, morale, and efficacy of the IBs than
anyone else including even Franco. The period literature naturally leaves it
out, but he was loathed and feared by the soldiers of the brigades for his
interference, erratic behavior, ineptness, choice of leaders, unjust
ruthlessness, and self-important arrogance. -the Troll
William Black
> > Christian Democrat parties in Europe did not accept Jewish members until
> > after WWII.
>
> I suppose I hate blind prejudice more than most and agree completely with
> you, but Conservatives are not reactive against the Left because many of
its
> proponents have been Jewish or against Jews because many support Left
> causes. It reacts against Socialism because it does not believe society
can
> or should be 'managed' by some rigid intellectually derived plan.
At the time we're thinking about conservatism didn't have a theoretical
basis at all.
People these days do tend to trot out Burke as their political innovator,
but of course he was, and remained, a Whig and wouldn't touch the Tories of
the day with a long and shitty stick.
Any thought that went into conservative political thought was about
preserving the social and economic order and they didn't actually need
anything more sophisticated until Marx came along and pointed out the
internal contradictions.
Indeed it can be said that Marx defined capitalism as well as Communism.
Before that nobody cared as long as 'people like us' had all the money and
all the power.
The Jews threatened 'people like us', they didn't go to church, they
didn't seem to want land and titles, they didn't want to marry the
daughters of the rich. So they were excluded from society and places of
power.
In the end most of the barriers came down, from Rothschild taking his seat
in the House of Commons to most other formal things, but there is still
anti-Semitism of a non overt type in the UK.
Jim Voege
>I had a very pleasant conversation with two members of the Guardia Civil on
> a train from Barcelona some years ago.
How many years ago? Permit us some sense of definition to your
obsolescence.
Jim
D. Spencer Hines
but throughout Europe and also in America.
Stalin distrusted the "Old Bolsheviks" -- many of whom were Jews -- and
purged thousands of them.
Was Andre Marty a French Jew -- or just an atheist with Christian forebears?
DSH
D. Spencer Hines
hates Franco and the Guardia Civil because they interfered with his sex life
when he was growing up and playing gay caballero and cocksman in and around
Barcelona -- on the beaches and in safe, secluded spots -- he thought.
He was often forced to struggle in the back seats of small European cars
with nubile young senoritas, where he offered a lucrative target for roaming
Guardia Civil enforcers of the Moral Code.
Great Fun for the Guardia Civil...
But:
Intensely Embarrassing, Painful & Humiliating Incidents for "Tiggy" -- who
was frequently caught with his "tiggy" and his hinder cheeks out, exposed
and vulnerable to the painful blows of their "porras". Vide infra.
As "Tiggy" himself explains:
"Civiles work in pairs. If the urban police want to arrest somebody they
send a "pareja" (a pair) to the suspect's domicile. It's very good to go
quietly. They patrol rural roads in pairs too, on foot or on motocycles."
"If you don't go quietly and they have to break a sweat, you are in for a
"fiesta," a party."
"The fiesta consists of you naked in a bare room surrounded by twenty
civiles armed with "porras," their terrible hard rubber bludgeon, and
playing a long drum solo on any part of you they can reach."
Señor Josep Maria Pere Rafael Suriol Alfaro -- "Tiggy"
-16 February 2006
Especially the soft and tender exposed parts...
'Nuff Said
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Deus Vult
Fortem Posce Animum
D. Spencer Hines
Thank you.
But was Marty ethnically Jewish, or not?
Jews were certainly strongly attracted to Bolshevism -- not just in Russia,
but throughout Europe and also in America.
Stalin distrusted the "Old Bolsheviks" -- many of whom were Jews -- and
purged thousands of them.
Trotsky, a Jewish Old Bolshevik, was his Greatest Enemy within the Movement.
Was Andre Marty a French Jew -- or just an atheist with Christian forebears?
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:11v9l9r...@corp.supernews.com...
D. Spencer Hines
The Red's Political Philosophy -- such as it it.
'Nuff Said.
DSH
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dt2l5c$kur$1...@news.freedom2surf.net...
D. Spencer Hines
to have the name MARIA somewhere in their names.
Germans and Austrians, for example, can be found with this name --
presumably they have a Roman Catholic heritage -- but not necessarily.
Is the idea that if a boy has the name MARIA somewhere in his name that the
Virgin Mary, the Holy Mother, will watch over him and protect him throughout
his life -- or is it just taken from his own mother -- or some, none or all
of the above?
William Black
> Yes, as I've often pointed out, Karl Marx holds an honored place in Black
> The Red's Political Philosophy -- such as it it.
Well of course he does you bone-headed imbecile.
He's the premier political theorist of the nineteenth century.
<Hey folks, I'm 'Black the Red' again, I must be doing something right>
D. Spencer Hines
JUST as I suspected -- Pogue Black rejects John Stuart Mill, a World-Class
Real Brit and native-born Great Political Philosopher, for the scruffy
con-man, and Continental import -- Karl Marx.
Yep, Black The Red is a knee-jerk Leftie all the way to the pub.
DSH
"William Black" <willia...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dt2t3k$nn5$1...@news.freedom2surf.net...
D. Spencer Hines
DSH
"hippo" <hi...@south-sudan.net> wrote in message
news:11va7jd...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Jack Linthicum" wrote in message
>
>> Keith W wrote:
>
>>> "hippo" wrote in message
>
>> Hippo is being 'satirical' which was his explanation for the really
>> extended and very lame thread on Sea Lion.
>
> Get over it.
>
>> I have a quick look at Churchill's memoirs where in the fall of 1940 he
>> mentions at least 170,000 troops going to or having arrived in the
>> Middle East. Add in the Australians and New Zealanders, who actually
>> took the brunt of much of the fighting in Greece, and I would guess a
>> round 225,000 available by January 30, 1941 which was jump off dau for
>> Felix if Franco had been a little less stubborn. Have to think Suner
>> was right, sock puppet for the Caudillo, when he told Hitler that Spain
>> would actively join the Axis when the Germans took Suez.
>
> Of you think the Brits would have abandoned Egypt, the Middle East, and
> Malta to land troops in Spain you are nuts. They'd have gotten their asses
> handed to them in a stupid project for no good reason. Spanish troops were
> nothing like Italians. There were Navarese militia banderas who suffered
> 200 percent casualties in the Civil War and fought on to the last day of
> the war. It was not uncommon for surrounded Nationalist units to fight on
> until they were all dead (Beltiche, Villanueva del Pardillo).
>
> Sunier, with Franco, added impossible demands on top of impossible demands
> they knew Hitler could never meet to including fuel, food, radio
> equipment, guns, trucks, tanks, planes, Gibraltar, and half of North
> Africa. -the Troll
D. Patterson
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> How does a military unit experience 200% casualties?
>
> DSH
By counting the casualties from the original complement and their
subsequent replacements who also became casualties. Many U.S. divisions
in the First World War and Second World War suffered greater than 100
percent casualties when compared to their authorized TO&E. Without a
steady supply of replacements, a division can deplete at a percentage
rate of its complement per week/month (I don't recall the exact rate or
time period) just from non-combat illness and accidents alone.