Grappling hooks as anti-submarine tool?
Paul Gordon
(This is posted here because there are many military history buffs here, and at
least one submariner.)
At present, in Houston, there is showing an excellent psychological thriller,
called "Below", set aboard a World War Two submarine that may (or may not) be
haunted. Very well done, but apparently being dumped with almost no
advertising.
In one instance, the boat is being tracked and attacked by a German ship that
not only depth charges them, but trails grappling hooks at the end of long
chains. It looked fairly plausible in the movie, but I have never heard of
this before.
I hesitate to ask if this has EVER been done (I suspect almost everthing has
been tried at one time or another), but has anyone ever heard of this before?
Thanks.
--
Paul Gordon (gor...@neosoft.com)
"When faced with a problem you do not understand, do any
part of it you do understand, then look at it again."
(Robert A. Heinlein - "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress")
Paul Gordon
Now that I've committed myself by raising this question (and mindful of the fact
that I'm checking the logic of a Hollywood screenplay; possibly an oxymoron
right there :), perhaps what I saw could have been minesweeping gear,
deployed simply because it was available.
Ceri Jones
news:BE7925E6551AA400.8FE49042...@lp.airnews.net...
> Does anyone know of grappling hooks being used in anti-submarine warfare
in WW2?
> (This is posted here because there are many military history buffs here,
and at
> least one submariner.)
>
> At present, in Houston, there is showing an excellent psychological
thriller,
> called "Below", set aboard a World War Two submarine that may (or may not)
be
> haunted. Very well done, but apparently being dumped with almost no
> advertising.
>
> In one instance, the boat is being tracked and attacked by a German ship
that
> not only depth charges them, but trails grappling hooks at the end of long
> chains. It looked fairly plausible in the movie, but I have never heard
of
> this before.
>
> I hesitate to ask if this has EVER been done (I suspect almost everthing
has
> been tried at one time or another), but has anyone ever heard of this
before?
>
I would have thought that if the boat did snare the sub it would very soon
be dragged under. Subs caught in their nets have been blamed for the
disappearance of more than one fishing vessel..
--
THE WELFARE OF THE PEOPLE IS THE HIGHEST LAW
Alex Braden
"Ceri Jones" <Ceri....@SPAMbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:apklue$4be$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
> >
>
> I would have thought that if the boat did snare the sub it would very soon
> be dragged under. Subs caught in their nets have been blamed for the
> disappearance of more than one fishing vessel..
What a catch though!
"Well sir, I caught a sub one time, and it was thiiiiiiiiiiiiiis big!" <g>
Braden
Paul Gordon
In this case, I think the German craft was a destroyer escort, or similar size
vessel. The hooks were partially encased in some kind of a tubular cage and
not projecting very far. They caught on the conning tower and ripped up the
periscope housing and radio mast.
I cannot see it as a standard tactic unless the idea is just to try and do SOME
damage with whatever is available (maybe this gear was used in mine-sweeping).
Or, maybe the script writer just thought it was neat and no one overrode him.
I keep thinking he may have had SOMETHING to base this on, maybe some unique
incident, but I just don't know.
Danny Bhoy
> Does anyone know of grappling hooks being used in anti-submarine warfare in WW2?
> (This is posted here because there are many military history buffs here, and at
> least one submariner.)
>
> At present, in Houston, there is showing an excellent psychological thriller,
> called "Below", set aboard a World War Two submarine that may (or may not) be
> haunted. Very well done, but apparently being dumped with almost no
> advertising.
>
> In one instance, the boat is being tracked and attacked by a German ship that
> not only depth charges them, but trails grappling hooks at the end of long
> chains. It looked fairly plausible in the movie, but I have never heard of
> this before.
>
> I hesitate to ask if this has EVER been done (I suspect almost everthing has
> been tried at one time or another), but has anyone ever heard of this before?
>
the X-craft attack (AKA Operation Source) on TIRPITZ at
Kaafjord/Altenfjord in 1942, her sailors responded by throwing
grenades and grapnels at a partially surfaced X-craft. Can't remember
the exact purpose of the grapnels tho.
DB
Rob Landolt
> vessel. The hooks were partially encased in some kind of a tubular cage and
> not projecting very far. They caught on the conning tower and ripped up the
> periscope housing and radio mast.
>
> I cannot see it as a standard tactic unless the idea is just to try and do SOME
> damage with whatever is available (maybe this gear was used in mine-sweeping).
>
> Or, maybe the script writer just thought it was neat and no one overrode him.
> I keep thinking he may have had SOMETHING to base this on, maybe some unique
> incident, but I just don't know.
I've been wondering about this, too. I haven't (yet) found anything
that says it was a real tactic, but it makes sense. The cruiser that
deployed the grapples was a monster, so it could probably do more to
pull the sub around than vice versa. Plus, if the hooks DID get snared
on a sub that tried to pull, or on the bottom for that matter, they
would probably break away to spare the ship. This might also have the
benefet of making the sub easier to track as it is dragging a long
chain behind it. Plus, if you're going to be doing search patterns
back and forth anyway, you could dangle the hooks just because you
might get lucky. Finally, the sound of dragging chains dragging might
be enough to spook a lurking sub out of its hidey hole on the bottom.
Just some thoughts from an armchair sub afficionado. I liked "Below" a
lot, both as a WWII sub movie and as a psychological thriller.
J.T. McDaniel
"Rob Landolt" <rlan...@intrusion.com> wrote in message
news:bc7b6134.02102...@posting.google.com...
I haven't seen this one yet, but if the German ship
was actually a cruiser and not a destroyer, it
still seems odd that this would be anything but a
script writer's gimmick. German cruisers were
equipped with very good sonar, which would be
a lot more effective than trolling.
Of course, the proper action for any cruiser with
an enemy submarine in close proximity is to go
to flank speed and get the hell out of the area,
not go hunting for the sub. You don't risk a
capital ship without good reason.
--
Jack
http://www.fleetsubmarine.com
http://withhonourinbattle.com
http://riverdaleebooks.com
Rob Landolt
to surface ships using grapnels to try and capture/damage subs, but
these tactics were employed by the Japanese in the Pacific and not the
Germans in the Atlantic. That doesn't mean the Germans did or didn't
do it, of course, and one of the sites mentions it was a favorite
tactic of civilian ships that were converted to wartime use. Still, if
anyone knows about this, I'd love to know more!
Here are the links:
USS Bowfin
http://www.bowfin.org/website/bowfin/bowfin_history/patrols/p_4/patrol_4.htm
USS Thresher
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/dafs/SS/ss200.html
USS Gunnell
http://hometown.aol.com/jmlavelle2/index.htm
(Look at the second war patrol)
gor...@neosoft.com (Paul Gordon) wrote in message news:<BE7925E6551AA400.8FE49042...@lp.airnews.net>...
J.T. McDaniel
"Rob Landolt" <amd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:595dea4e.02103...@posting.google.com...
> I did a little digging around on the net and found several references
> to surface ships using grapnels to try and capture/damage subs, but
> these tactics were employed by the Japanese in the Pacific and not the
> Germans in the Atlantic. That doesn't mean the Germans did or didn't
> do it, of course, and one of the sites mentions it was a favorite
> tactic of civilian ships that were converted to wartime use. Still, if
> anyone knows about this, I'd love to know more!
>
> Here are the links:
> USS Bowfin
>
http://www.bowfin.org/website/bowfin/bowfin_history/patrols/p_4/patrol_4.htm
>
> USS Thresher
> http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/dafs/SS/ss200.html
>
> USS Gunnell
> http://hometown.aol.com/jmlavelle2/index.htm
> (Look at the second war patrol)
>
Fascinating to see a thread appear in two
different venues without actual cross posting
being involved..
The main thought that occurs with regard to the
use of grapnels as an A/S system is that it seems
less than optimally efficient. German warships,
including cruisers, were fitted with excellent
passive and active sonar gear, and at a speed
where the grapnels would be effective the sonar
should be even more so. One of the first
conformal array sonar systems tested on US
submarines was actually stripped from Prinz
Eugen and installed on the front of the conning
tower fairwater in Flying Fish (SS-229), and is
frequently credited with being the ancestor of
all modern passive arrays.
Of course, if the German ship in the movie is
actually a cruiser and not a destroyer, this raises
the question of why it would be hunting for a
submarine in the first place. The proper action for
a cruiser with an enemy sub known to be in the
immediate vicinity is to very quickly go somewhere
else. Capital ships are too expensive to replace to
risk them around subs.
> gor...@neosoft.com (Paul Gordon) wrote in message
Rob Landolt
expensive capital ship to go after a sub. "Cruiser" may be my
designation for it and not what it was in the movie, and since I only
saw "Below" once I can't remember what they called the ship in the
movie. They weren't sure, either, since it was bad weather and they
only caught a glimpse before diving down and hiding. It had a hull
mounted sonar, though, tons of depth charge racks and bright
searchlights shining from the aft (a very cool effect in the movie) so
it probably is a destroyer. Somebody mentions a "Type Z" though I
can't remember if that was the suspected pursuer or the sub tender
they were assigned to destroy at the beginning.
**Possible spoiler**
To give you a little context on how the grapples were used, the chains
show up at a point when the sub surfaces to vent and the German ship
is waiting for them. (The American sub has been leaking oil from an
earlier attack, unbeknowest to the submariners.) They dive immediately
and end up settling on the sea bed (the water is less than 100 feet
deep) and the German ship starts running around in circles, pinging up
a storm and dragging the grapples/hooks behind them. If they were
counting on the chains as your main weapon they'd be in trouble, but
if you were steaming about in circles you might throw them overboard
in case you got lucky.
Although, like the original poster said, this may all be just be the
imagination of the scriptwriter. But I always think it's cool if an
author or filmmaker does his homework and I liked the movie enough
that I hope that's the case here. :)
J.T. McDaniel
> Thanks for the input. I see what you mean about not risking a big
> expensive capital ship to go after a sub. "Cruiser" may be my
> designation for it and not what it was in the movie, and since I only
> saw "Below" once I can't remember what they called the ship in the
> movie. They weren't sure, either, since it was bad weather and they
> only caught a glimpse before diving down and hiding. It had a hull
> mounted sonar, though, tons of depth charge racks and bright
> searchlights shining from the aft (a very cool effect in the movie) so
> it probably is a destroyer. Somebody mentions a "Type Z" though I
> can't remember if that was the suspected pursuer or the sub tender
> they were assigned to destroy at the beginning.
>
The Germans had a Z-class destroyer. 417 feet,
39 foot beam, 2500 tons standard displacement,
and 5 5" guns. If there were depth charge racks
you can be pretty sure it was a destroyer.
idr...@gmail.com
The use of grappling hooks was not an anti-submarine tactic used by the German Kriegsmarine during World War II. That tactic was used by German and British naval forces during World War I, but only in shallow water. There are also reports of the Japanese Imperial Navy using hooks in the Pacific during World War II.