Accuracy of the books?
P Cook
authenticity. I particularly felt this when I read Rainbow 6. I live 2
miles from the S.A.S. base in Hereford, England, so was sensitive to some of
the story line and clear factual errors.
Clark arrives at RAF Northholt outside London and heads "west and south for
Hereford". Big problem as Hereford is north of Northholt (Northholt is 51
degrees 55 minutes north and Hereford is 52 degrees 05 minutes north). A
quick glance at any map should have told him this.
Secondly is the scene where the team chase the terrorists who have attacked
the hospital in Hereford, around the city's motorway. Hereford has
basically a medieval city plan and the nearest we have to a motorway is 1.5
miles of dual carriage way (two lanes in each direction) which is studded
with cross road junctions and very slow drivers. In the daytime reaching
the speed of 20 miles per hour for more than 30 seconds is a major
achievement!
Now I am not a techno-geek, interested in the accuracy of descriptions of
armaments etc - and the story is great, so why weaken a great plot with the
boring truth, but it set me to wondering how many other factual errors the
books contain. How good is Tom Clancy on doing his basic homework.
Any thoughts or other errors?
Michael Kennedy
"P Cook" <pjc...@cookp1.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bkjlpq$cp2$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> I love the Tom Clancy books, but I wonder how much effort he puts into his
> authenticity. I particularly felt this when I read Rainbow 6. I live 2
> miles from the S.A.S. base in Hereford, England, so was sensitive to some
of
> the story line and clear factual errors.
This is a good question. There were criticisms of Clear and PD about alleged
errors in Columbian geography and topography. I don't know the answer. One
recommendation for the WEB Griffin novels has been his accuracy in detail.
The kind of reader attracted to this sort of literature likes these details.
I am a fan of the Helen MacInnes spy novels from the 50s and 60s. They are
very out of date now (so am I) but I have had fun retracing her locales in
Europe and have found a number of the places, small places, in her stories
which have had names altered in the book but are obviously true to life. She
was once quoted saying that allied soldiers, after the Normandy invasion,
spent time searching for the French village in "Assignment in Brittany", one
of her best. If I were a wealthy writer who had a readership as geeky as
this one, I would spend a lot of time on such detail.
Mike Kennedy
Who Izzat
<mtken...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>"P Cook" <pjc...@cookp1.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:bkjlpq$cp2$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> I love the Tom Clancy books, but I wonder how much effort he puts into his
>> authenticity. I particularly felt this when I read Rainbow 6. I live 2
>> miles from the S.A.S. base in Hereford, England, so was sensitive to some
>of
>> the story line and clear factual errors.
>
>This is a good question. There were criticisms of Clear and PD about alleged
>errors in Columbian geography and topography. I don't know the answer. One
>recommendation for the WEB Griffin novels has been his accuracy in detail.
I've read "The Lieutenants" (Brotherhood of War) I don't know how many
times and I still can't follow the "description" of Cadet Sanford T.
Felter's "rifle salute" in the office of the Commandant of Cadets.
The moves just don't resemble the rifle salute I was taught so long
ago WITH US Rifle, Cal. 30, M-1. So Griffin is sometimes very casual
about accuracy.
He also changes names of characters from one book to the next making
continuity a bit of a problem.
For all these nits though, I simply cannot resist anything written by
William E. Butterworth (Griffin). :) The reading is pure pleasure.
>The kind of reader attracted to this sort of literature likes these details.
>I am a fan of the Helen MacInnes spy novels from the 50s and 60s. They are
>very out of date now (so am I) but I have had fun retracing her locales in
>Europe and have found a number of the places, small places, in her stories
>which have had names altered in the book but are obviously true to life. She
>was once quoted saying that allied soldiers, after the Normandy invasion,
>spent time searching for the French village in "Assignment in Brittany", one
>of her best. If I were a wealthy writer who had a readership as geeky as
>this one, I would spend a lot of time on such detail.
>
>Mike Kennedy
>
I too liked Helen MacInnes and I still have several of hers in
paperback. Showing my age. :)
My standing purchase orders are anything by WEB Griffin and anything
by Tom Clancy -- so long as I'm assured that the book isn't simply
using their names to sell the so-called writing of another.
I understand the commercial value of TC's name but really, the way the
Op Center and Net... stuff is sold really bother's me.
If these were marketable on their own merits, they wouldn't NEED a
prominent display of TC's name on the cover and the real author's name
would'nt be almost hidden. As it is, the technique stops just short
of misrepresentation; it's a trap for the unwary.
AND, IMHO, it cheapens TC's name to be used in this way. He's an
author of great talent. The people who're writing under his name just
don't measure up -- IMHO!
Who
Michael Kennedy
"Who Izzat" <whoizza...@nospam.yahoo.net> wrote in message
news:scirmvobmq4h8afj1...@4ax.com...
I don't know which characters you mean. He does change the names of the
children of the POW officer in The Lieutenants. Later they have different
names and the sexes may change. Can't remember at the moment. Of course, he
has been writing these books over a 20+ year period and a new came out this
year. Tough to keep all the minor characters straight. I'm amazed that he's
still going at it with another one due in January. He's also writing new
sequels in three series, Marines, Army and Argentina.
>
> For all these nits though, I simply cannot resist anything written by
> William E. Butterworth (Griffin). :) The reading is pure pleasure.
>
>
> >The kind of reader attracted to this sort of literature likes these
details.
> >I am a fan of the Helen MacInnes spy novels from the 50s and 60s. They
are
> >very out of date now (so am I) but I have had fun retracing her locales
in
> >Europe and have found a number of the places, small places, in her
stories
> >which have had names altered in the book but are obviously true to life.
She
> >was once quoted saying that allied soldiers, after the Normandy invasion,
> >spent time searching for the French village in "Assignment in Brittany",
one
> >of her best. If I were a wealthy writer who had a readership as geeky as
> >this one, I would spend a lot of time on such detail.
> >
> >Mike Kennedy
> >
>
> I too liked Helen MacInnes and I still have several of hers in
> paperback. Showing my age. :)
They are still in print in UK. Another ancient favorite is Neville Shute.
The advent of the internet used book market has been a boon and I have
bought many hardcover versions of favorites long out of print.
Mike Kennedy
cMAD
> Now I am not a techno-geek, interested in the accuracy of descriptions of
> armaments etc - and the story is great, so why weaken a great plot with the
> boring truth, but it set me to wondering how many other factual errors the
> books contain. How good is Tom Clancy on doing his basic homework.
>
> Any thoughts or other errors?
Well, it seems that occasionally, he only reads half the sign telling the name
of a hotel.
cMAD <- but then again, this occurred in what some consider only half a book
[tTotT].
jhha...@swbell.net
Michael Kennedy wrote:
> "Who Izzat" <whoizza...@nospam.yahoo.net> wrote in message
> news:scirmvobmq4h8afj1...@4ax.com...
>
>>I've read "The Lieutenants" (Brotherhood of War) I don't know how many
>>times and I still can't follow the "description" of Cadet Sanford T.
>>Felter's "rifle salute" in the office of the Commandant of Cadets.
>>The moves just don't resemble the rifle salute I was taught so long
>>ago WITH US Rifle, Cal. 30, M-1. So Griffin is sometimes very casual
>>about accuracy.
>>
>>He also changes names of characters from one book to the next making
>>continuity a bit of a problem.
>
>
> I don't know which characters you mean. He does change the names of the
> children of the POW officer in The Lieutenants. Later they have different
> names and the sexes may change. Can't remember at the moment. Of course, he
> has been writing these books over a 20+ year period and a new came out this
> year. Tough to keep all the minor characters straight. I'm amazed that he's
> still going at it with another one due in January. He's also writing new
> sequels in three series, Marines, Army and Argentina.
>
>
>>For all these nits though, I simply cannot resist anything written by
>>William E. Butterworth (Griffin). :) The reading is pure pleasure.
>
>
Macklin: Robert, Richard, Bob, Dick...... He never could keep those
names straight.
Griffin has some real whopping continuity errors in the "Corps" series;
times and places where characters meet (Ernie Sage meeting Ernie
Zimmerman); ages of characters - Macklin was an 11 year veteran in 1941
and was still serving, in his mid-30s in the latest Korea book ten years
later. Ernie Zimmerman didn't speak any more Chinese than when he came
off the boat in the first book, but gained fluency in Mandarin and Wu
later.
That being said, I've read all of Griffin's books repeatedly, to the
point that I can point out the inconsistencies. But if I'm by the pool
and don't want to think too much, I start on another one.
JH
Gml...@scvnet.com
> authenticity. I particularly felt this when I read Rainbow 6. I live 2
> miles from the S.A.S. base in Hereford, England, so was sensitive to some
of
> the story line and clear factual errors.
>
> armaments etc - and the story is great, so why weaken a great plot with
the
> boring truth, but it set me to wondering how many other factual errors the
> books contain. How good is Tom Clancy on doing his basic homework.
Well, if there is a certain error rate in the information that you know
intimately, it is a reasonable supposition that there is an equivalent error
rate in the information that you don't know well.
The catch-all justification for this is that this is a work of fiction.
Sometimes the plot is more important to the author than the fiddling
details. Checking the details is tedious, boring work and in the end it
doesn't make any difference to the book's sales.
George
Michael Kennedy
<jhha...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:ZHmbb.47$0o1.98...@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
> Michael Kennedy wrote:
>
> > "Who Izzat" <whoizza...@nospam.yahoo.net> wrote in message
> > news:scirmvobmq4h8afj1...@4ax.com...
>
> >
> >>I've read "The Lieutenants" (Brotherhood of War) I don't know how many
> >>times and I still can't follow the "description" of Cadet Sanford T.
> >>Felter's "rifle salute" in the office of the Commandant of Cadets.
> >>The moves just don't resemble the rifle salute I was taught so long
> >>ago WITH US Rifle, Cal. 30, M-1. So Griffin is sometimes very casual
> >>about accuracy.
> >>
> >>He also changes names of characters from one book to the next making
> >>continuity a bit of a problem.
> >
>
snip
>
> Macklin: Robert, Richard, Bob, Dick...... He never could keep those
> names straight.
>
> Griffin has some real whopping continuity errors in the "Corps" series;
> times and places where characters meet (Ernie Sage meeting Ernie
> Zimmerman); ages of characters - Macklin was an 11 year veteran in 1941
> and was still serving, in his mid-30s in the latest Korea book ten years
> later. Ernie Zimmerman didn't speak any more Chinese than when he came
> off the boat in the first book, but gained fluency in Mandarin and Wu
> later.
>
I bow to real real authority in WEB Griffin nits. I have read all of them
many times and, now that you mention it, I have wondered about the language
skills of Ernie Z and I remember that Ernie the girl said she hated the
nickname Ernie yet wound up with it the rest of the books. I never noticed
the inconsistencies with Macklin. Now if you want a real sequence jump, the
new Philadelphia police series book has jumped from the 1970s to the present
with everyone the same age. I think the editors must have said "Nobody's
interested in old police methods anymore." He doesn't bat an eye but has
Matt with a laptop. The only jarring note is a mention of Vietnam and
failing his Marine physical when Matt joined the PPD. I didn't mind a bit.
Somebody named Macklin (and a Colonel Minor) must have really pissed
Butterworth off in Korea or someplace. Both get trashed in every book of
their series.
If you know the books that well, you had better get a life ! :)
Mike Kennedy
jhha...@swbell.net
Michael Kennedy wrote:
>
> If you know the books that well, you had better get a life ! :)
>
> Mike Kennedy
>
>
No kidding....Well, I've been reading them on and off for about....20
years????? Omigod........
I've read the first of the Philly cop books, but haven't had time to
find the rest and life does intrude.
JH
Bill Toscano
names straight.
Now, I don't like Macklin. (What a surprise?)
Actually, he's a great plot device.
In my mind, the little weasel probably re-invents every time he gets shunted
off somewhere after crossing a major character.
Bill
Who Izzat
<mtken...@cox.net> wrote:
Well, if you read the entire Brotherhood series, you'll recall that
there was a Brigadier Gen named Scotty Laird who bought the farm
flying his own helicopter not that long after taking command of Fort
Rucker, Alabama and the airfield was being named Laird Field.
In a later book, all mention of Laird was replaced by Cairnes. (hope
I spelled it right) No explanation for that. Just did it. Well,
even so gross a continuity error is forgivable when the storyteller is
so bloomin good! :)
I'm looking forward to the new ones. I have standing orders for 'em.
I never had any trouble keeping Ernest Zimmerman and Ernestine Sage
apart in my mind. Now the way that "weasel" Macklin keeps popping up
is simply amazing but I seem to recall he was posted to Mongolia --
good riddance.
I've known my share of NCO's like Ernie and they're the best. I never
knew anyone like Ernie Sage though.
The one common thread that runs through Griffin's books is that the
hero is almost NEVER hurting for money. Of all Griffin's heroes, the
only one I can recall who isn't rolling in dough is Ken McCoy.
Everyone else is "comfortable" to "wealthy". Craig Lowell, Porter
Craig, Fleming Pickering, "Porky" Waterford, Bob Bellmon, E. Z. Black
and Ernie Sage -- and that's only the Brotherhood and the Corps bunch!
I'm sure I left out a few. :)
I guess it really makes it easy to script out a yarn if money is no
problem. :)
Who
Michael Kennedy
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:39:57 -0700, "Michael Kennedy"
> <mtken...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Who Izzat" <whoizza...@nospam.yahoo.net> wrote in message
> >news:scirmvobmq4h8afj1...@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:51:42 -0700, "Michael Kennedy"
> >> <mtken...@cox.net> wrote:
> >>
>
> Well, if you read the entire Brotherhood series, you'll recall that
> there was a Brigadier Gen named Scotty Laird who bought the farm
> flying his own helicopter not that long after taking command of Fort
> Rucker, Alabama and the airfield was being named Laird Field.
>
> In a later book, all mention of Laird was replaced by Cairnes. (hope
> I spelled it right) No explanation for that. Just did it. Well,
> even so gross a continuity error is forgivable when the storyteller is
> so bloomin good! :)
I think Laird Field is the real name.
>
> I'm looking forward to the new ones. I have standing orders for 'em.
>
> I never had any trouble keeping Ernest Zimmerman and Ernestine Sage
> apart in my mind. Now the way that "weasel" Macklin keeps popping up
> is simply amazing but I seem to recall he was posted to Mongolia --
> good riddance.
>
> I've known my share of NCO's like Ernie and they're the best. I never
> knew anyone like Ernie Sage though.
>
> The one common thread that runs through Griffin's books is that the
> hero is almost NEVER hurting for money. Of all Griffin's heroes, the
> only one I can recall who isn't rolling in dough is Ken McCoy.
He married money
>
> Everyone else is "comfortable" to "wealthy". Craig Lowell, Porter
> Craig, Fleming Pickering, "Porky" Waterford, Bob Bellmon, E. Z. Black
> and Ernie Sage -- and that's only the Brotherhood and the Corps bunch!
> I'm sure I left out a few. :)
>
> I guess it really makes it easy to script out a yarn if money is no
> problem. :)
His point is to make them independent and make the career one of choice, not
necessity. He makes a real effort, in the later Marine series, to show them
as wise and capable of making it in the civilian world. A sort of
aristocracy of soldiering. They are in it because they love the life not
because they have nowhere else to go. Jack Ryan is in the same mold. He can
make it in the world but chooses service. It gets a bit thick in the last
Army book where everyone is rich. The soldiers and Marines don't have to get
off the grass but own it. I don't know how true to life it is. Both series,
and the TC books are about intelligence, not the line animals. Clark is the
blue collar guy.
Mike Kennedy
Who Izzat
<mtken...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>"Who Izzat" <whoizza...@nospam.yahoo.net> wrote in message
>news:7bosmv0hrt3eenqnf...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:39:57 -0700, "Michael Kennedy"
>> <mtken...@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Who Izzat" <whoizza...@nospam.yahoo.net> wrote in message
>> >news:scirmvobmq4h8afj1...@4ax.com...
>> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:51:42 -0700, "Michael Kennedy"
>> >> <mtken...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >>
>snip
>
>>
>> Well, if you read the entire Brotherhood series, you'll recall that
>> there was a Brigadier Gen named Scotty Laird who bought the farm
>> flying his own helicopter not that long after taking command of Fort
>> Rucker, Alabama and the airfield was being named Laird Field.
>>
>> In a later book, all mention of Laird was replaced by Cairnes. (hope
>> I spelled it right) No explanation for that. Just did it. Well,
>> even so gross a continuity error is forgivable when the storyteller is
>> so bloomin good! :)
>
>I think Laird Field is the real name.
Don't think so. Check this out:
http://www.fbodaily.com/cbd/archive/1999/06(June)/15-Jun-1999/Ysol005.htm
>
>>
>> I'm looking forward to the new ones. I have standing orders for 'em.
>>
>> I never had any trouble keeping Ernest Zimmerman and Ernestine Sage
>> apart in my mind. Now the way that "weasel" Macklin keeps popping up
>> is simply amazing but I seem to recall he was posted to Mongolia --
>> good riddance.
>>
>> I've known my share of NCO's like Ernie and they're the best. I never
>> knew anyone like Ernie Sage though.
>>
>> The one common thread that runs through Griffin's books is that the
>> hero is almost NEVER hurting for money. Of all Griffin's heroes, the
>> only one I can recall who isn't rolling in dough is Ken McCoy.
>
>He married money
Actually, I don't recall he ever married Ernie Sage. Oh, eventually,
it was bound to happen but I don't recall reading it.
>
>>
>> Everyone else is "comfortable" to "wealthy". Craig Lowell, Porter
>> Craig, Fleming Pickering, "Porky" Waterford, Bob Bellmon, E. Z. Black
>> and Ernie Sage -- and that's only the Brotherhood and the Corps bunch!
>> I'm sure I left out a few. :)
>>
>> I guess it really makes it easy to script out a yarn if money is no
>> problem. :)
>
>His point is to make them independent and make the career one of choice, not
>necessity. He makes a real effort, in the later Marine series, to show them
>as wise and capable of making it in the civilian world. A sort of
>aristocracy of soldiering. They are in it because they love the life not
>because they have nowhere else to go. Jack Ryan is in the same mold. He can
>make it in the world but chooses service.
Those are good points. But think how difficult it would have been for
Craig Lowell to buy a Catalina to rescue Sanford Felter off the beach
at the Bay of Pigs if his American Express card wouldn't have covered
the charge. So many things were made possible by his wealth. It's a
facet that can't be overlooked.
Same for Fleming Pickering in "The Corps" series. Owns a shipping
line and married the daughter of a hotel magnate. No problems with
money at all.
These guys had great freedom of action thanks to essentially unlimited
availability of funds. You can REALLY operate if you can pay your way
and not sit out in the hall, hat in hand, waiting for your opportunity
to go in and beg for funding. Plots are lots less cluttered that way.
It gets a bit thick in the last
>Army book where everyone is rich. The soldiers and Marines don't have to get
>off the grass but own it. I don't know how true to life it is. Both series,
>and the TC books are about intelligence, not the line animals. Clark is the
>blue collar guy.
>
>Mike Kennedy
>
Good points. Clark is the outlet for vigilantism. I think TC may be
a "closet vigilante" or perhaps "pragmatist" is the better word.
Michael Kennedy
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:53:41 -0700, "Michael Kennedy"
> <mtken...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Who Izzat" <whoizza...@nospam.yahoo.net> wrote in message
> >news:7bosmv0hrt3eenqnf...@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:39:57 -0700, "Michael Kennedy"
> >> <mtken...@cox.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Who Izzat" <whoizza...@nospam.yahoo.net> wrote in message
> >> >news:scirmvobmq4h8afj1...@4ax.com...
> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:51:42 -0700, "Michael Kennedy"
> >> >> <mtken...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >snip
> >
> >>
> >> Well, if you read the entire Brotherhood series, you'll recall that
> >> there was a Brigadier Gen named Scotty Laird who bought the farm
> >> flying his own helicopter not that long after taking command of Fort
> >> Rucker, Alabama and the airfield was being named Laird Field.
> >>
> >> In a later book, all mention of Laird was replaced by Cairnes. (hope
> >> I spelled it right) No explanation for that. Just did it. Well,
> >> even so gross a continuity error is forgivable when the storyteller is
> >> so bloomin good! :)
> >
> >I think Laird Field is the real name.
>
> Don't think so. Check this out:
>
> http://www.fbodaily.com/cbd/archive/1999/06(June)/15-Jun-1999/Ysol005.htm
I think you're right. I went to the Rucker web site but they have lots of
dead links. Cairns doesn't hit anything either. Maybe Cairns was Laird.
Triple H Howard, whose real name was Howze, died last spring. Griffin used
the real name of the Howze Board but changed the general to Howard.
snip
> >>
> >> The one common thread that runs through Griffin's books is that the
> >> hero is almost NEVER hurting for money. Of all Griffin's heroes, the
> >> only one I can recall who isn't rolling in dough is Ken McCoy.
> >
> >He married money
>
> Actually, I don't recall he ever married Ernie Sage. Oh, eventually,
> it was bound to happen but I don't recall reading it.
It's in the last Marine book, Under Fire, that came out last spring.
>
> >
> >>
> >> Everyone else is "comfortable" to "wealthy". Craig Lowell, Porter
> >> Craig, Fleming Pickering, "Porky" Waterford, Bob Bellmon, E. Z. Black
> >> and Ernie Sage -- and that's only the Brotherhood and the Corps bunch!
> >> I'm sure I left out a few. :)
> >>
> >> I guess it really makes it easy to script out a yarn if money is no
> >> problem. :)
> >
> >His point is to make them independent and make the career one of choice,
not
> >necessity. He makes a real effort, in the later Marine series, to show
them
> >as wise and capable of making it in the civilian world. A sort of
> >aristocracy of soldiering. They are in it because they love the life not
> >because they have nowhere else to go. Jack Ryan is in the same mold. He
can
> >make it in the world but chooses service.
>
> Those are good points. But think how difficult it would have been for
> Craig Lowell to buy a Catalina to rescue Sanford Felter off the beach
> at the Bay of Pigs if his American Express card wouldn't have covered
> the charge. So many things were made possible by his wealth. It's a
> facet that can't be overlooked.
Sure. Same goes for Ryan. He is rich so he can tell Fowler to stick it.
>
> Same for Fleming Pickering in "The Corps" series. Owns a shipping
> line and married the daughter of a hotel magnate. No problems with
> money at all.
>
> These guys had great freedom of action thanks to essentially unlimited
> availability of funds. You can REALLY operate if you can pay your way
> and not sit out in the hall, hat in hand, waiting for your opportunity
> to go in and beg for funding. Plots are lots less cluttered that way.
Herman Wouk, for the same reason, makes Pug Henry a Roosevelt personal rep
because he uses him to tell the backstory of the war. Fleming Pickering
would not have had the access to MacArthur if he had not been a similar
character. Ryan can pick up the phone in EO and call George, Whatsisname to
take over Treasury. All of these are plot devices that work pretty well.
There were rich men in the Army but, besides Patton, I don't know of any.
Patton sailed his own schooner to Hawaii in the 1930s when he took over a
command there. He was quite a guy. Porky Waterford must be taken from
Patton in some respects. Patton's son-in-law was captured in North Africa,
for example, just like Bellmon.
There is a similar situation with rich men in Pepperdogs, a recent military
novel that I have had some trouble getting into. Common theme, especially
since the 90s when money sort of defined who you were. Hard to identify with
poor kids working their way up anymore. Too bad. Clancy does a good job with
Clark and Chavez. Of course Chavez is a language genius like McCoy. Can't be
too realistic. It is, after all, fiction.
snip
>
> Good points. Clark is the outlet for vigilantism. I think TC may be
> a "closet vigilante" or perhaps "pragmatist" is the better word.
I don't know as I would use the term "closet". WR pretty well established
his premise in that area.
Mike Kennedy
>
>
Bill Toscano
Someone -- brain fade intrudes -- wound up a millionaire after his sister
and her husband tried to cheat him out of an inheritance with a lowball bid
for his part of the truckstop. I think Lowell got a lawyer to help him.
Is there a WEB Griffin newsgroups????
<grin>
Bill
Michael Kennedy
"Bill Toscano" <tos...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:N7Gdnf-lC__...@comcast.com...
> Not everybody starts out with money.
>
> Someone -- brain fade intrudes -- wound up a millionaire after his sister
> and her husband tried to cheat him out of an inheritance with a lowball
bid
> for his part of the truckstop. I think Lowell got a lawyer to help him.
The Heuy pilot who was Bellmon's aide. He married the Ice Princess (who I
didn't like).
>
> Is there a WEB Griffin newsgroups????
This seems to be developing as an appendage to TC.
Mike Kennedy
>
> <grin>
>
> Bill
>
>
Who Izzat
<tos...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Not everybody starts out with money.
>
>Someone -- brain fade intrudes -- wound up a millionaire after his sister
>and her husband tried to cheat him out of an inheritance with a lowball bid
>for his part of the truckstop. I think Lowell got a lawyer to help him.
That was Johnny Oliver, Bob Bellmon's aide.
(Brotherhood of War, The New Breed)
Guys with plenty of money by series:
Brotherhood of War
Craig Lowell, E Z Black, Porky Waterford, Bob Bellmon
In "The Corps",
Fleming Pickering and "Pick" and of course,
the lovely Ernie Sage who falls for Ken McCoy.
In the Honor Bound series, it's Cletus Frade.
In Badge of Honor series, it's Matt Payne.
Have I missed any? Each series needs at least ONE guy who has no real
worries about money. Part of the appeal must be the vicarious
power-trip that goes along with reading about admirable people of such
means.
>
>Is there a WEB Griffin newsgroups????
>
><grin>
I dunno but it COULD be VEDDY interesting. :)
>
>Bill
>
Who
Michael Kennedy
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:27:05 -0400, "Bill Toscano"
> <tos...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >Not everybody starts out with money.
> >
> >Someone -- brain fade intrudes -- wound up a millionaire after his sister
> >and her husband tried to cheat him out of an inheritance with a lowball
bid
> >for his part of the truckstop. I think Lowell got a lawyer to help him.
>
> That was Johnny Oliver, Bob Bellmon's aide.
> (Brotherhood of War, The New Breed)
>
> Guys with plenty of money by series:
>
> Brotherhood of War
> Craig Lowell, E Z Black, Porky Waterford, Bob Bellmon
>
> In "The Corps",
> Fleming Pickering and "Pick" and of course,
> the lovely Ernie Sage who falls for Ken McCoy.
>
> In the Honor Bound series, it's Cletus Frade.
>
> In Badge of Honor series, it's Matt Payne.
>
> Have I missed any? Each series needs at least ONE guy who has no real
> worries about money. Part of the appeal must be the vicarious
> power-trip that goes along with reading about admirable people of such
> means.
I think it gives a sense of the police/army/marines as a valuable career
that transcends the need to make a living. To add to your list, there are
Geoff Craig, who ends up as a BG in The Generals, and Jack Portet, who is
not as rich as Lowell, et al, but whose father has an airline. Another item
is the fact that most of the rich men begin as EM and get commissions later.
Also the Russian wife of the colonel begins as the daughter of the Victrola
store owner in Russia and ends up as a countess whose father was a Russian
general. His stuff on China is great and I wonder where the source was.
Probably some old retired Marine in Fairhope.
Mike Kennedy
Ogden Johnson III
>Not everybody starts out with money.
>
>Someone -- brain fade intrudes -- wound up a millionaire after his sister
>and her husband tried to cheat him out of an inheritance with a lowball bid
>for his part of the truckstop. I think Lowell got a lawyer to help him.
Captain John Oliver, ADC to General Bellmon [in the last two but one
of the last three books in the Brotherhood of War series; WEBG covered
basically the same take on the Congo from two different aspects,
before going on to have the BoW crew take on Che Guevara in Africa in
the last one {ringing in Argentina, peripherally, in that one}], was
the one you're thinking of.
>Is there a WEB Griffin newsgroups????
I haven't checked, lately, but here are the web pages I bookmarked the
last time I did a google on him:
http://www.nmark.com/webgriffin/author.html
http://www.parlier.com/web_p04w.htm
http://www.myunicorn.com/bibl3/bibl0358.html
http://www.booksnbytes.com/authors/butterworthiii_williame.html
They're all still good, I had to check them to get the URLs.
OJ III
Gml...@scvnet.com
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:27:05 -0400, "Bill Toscano"
> <tos...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >Not everybody starts out with money.
> >
> >Someone -- brain fade intrudes -- wound up a millionaire after his sister
> >and her husband tried to cheat him out of an inheritance with a lowball
bid
> >for his part of the truckstop. I think Lowell got a lawyer to help him.
>
> That was Johnny Oliver, Bob Bellmon's aide.
> (Brotherhood of War, The New Breed)
>
> Guys with plenty of money by series:
>
> Brotherhood of War
> Craig Lowell, E Z Black, Porky Waterford, Bob Bellmon
>
> In "The Corps",
> Fleming Pickering and "Pick" and of course,
> the lovely Ernie Sage who falls for Ken McCoy.
>
> In the Honor Bound series, it's Cletus Frade.
>
> In Badge of Honor series, it's Matt Payne.
>
> Have I missed any?
NUMA series: Dirk Pitt, Kurt Austin
> Each series needs at least ONE guy who has no real
> worries about money. Part of the appeal must be the vicarious
> power-trip that goes along with reading about admirable people of such
> means.
No, wealth simply eliminates the need for the hero to toil away for hours at
his 7-11 day job. It's a lot easier to get into jeopardy in a Monaco
casino, too!
George
Ogden Johnson III
>"Who Izzat" <whoizza...@nospam.yahoo.net> wrote in message
[commenting on a WEBG thread]
>> Guys with plenty of money by series:
[WEBG series]
[snip]
>> Have I missed any?
>NUMA series: Dirk Pitt, Kurt Austin
>> Each series needs at least ONE guy who has no real
>> worries about money. Part of the appeal must be the vicarious
>> power-trip that goes along with reading about admirable people of such
>> means.
>No, wealth simply eliminates the need for the hero to toil away for hours at
>his 7-11 day job. It's a lot easier to get into jeopardy in a Monaco
>casino, too!
Not always wealth. Remember, James Bond wasn't wealthy, he just lived
well on the equipment supplied him and his expense account from
MIwhoever. ;->
OJ III
[And remember, the detective who foiled the, not *yet* rich, Jackal
was a wage-slave police detective]
--
OJ III
[Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast]
taltos
"Michael Kennedy" <mtken...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:e_ibb.365$hp5.265@fed1read04...
really close to the mark. Was on leave and really enjoyed the research and
the wine. Paul
taltos
in China-Whorehouses and convoys. Also, there was a comment about Sandy
Felter leaving West Point. I can not find my copy of "The Lieutenants", but
at the time he left, he had the right to be given a commission under the
rules in effet at the time. Wish I could find the book to see how he screwed
up a rifle salute. However, his taking a commission was legal and remained
that way through our Asian adventure. This held true for West Point and for
the US Naval Academy. Keep in mind, language specialists were given
commissions from ROTC in their Sophmore years (my father, Navy). Paul
taltos
Commandant's office to request his commission in December? Did seem that the
rifle salute was not quite right. Have the book in storage and must check it
again. Paul btw as an infrequent and now new and hard poster, can I get a
"Welcome to the Jungle"?
>
>
Marc Reeve
> <Gml...@scvnet.com> wrote:
>
> >"Who Izzat" <whoizza...@nospam.yahoo.net> wrote in message
>
> [commenting on a WEBG thread]
>
> >> Each series needs at least ONE guy who has no real
> >> worries about money. Part of the appeal must be the vicarious
> >> power-trip that goes along with reading about admirable people of such
> >> means.
>
> >No, wealth simply eliminates the need for the hero to toil away for hours
> >at his 7-11 day job. It's a lot easier to get into jeopardy in a Monaco
> >casino, too!
>
> Not always wealth. Remember, James Bond wasn't wealthy, he just lived
> well on the equipment supplied him and his expense account from
> MIwhoever. ;->
Well, he *was* allowed to keep any winnings from high-stakes card games.
Remember his predilection for elderly Bentleys? I wouldn't call him
"wealthy" as such, but he wasn't hurting...
-Marc
--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m
Jay Scovill
>> the lovely Ernie Sage who falls for Ken McCoy.
>>
>> In the Honor Bound series, it's Cletus Frade.
>>
>> In Badge of Honor series, it's Matt Payne.
>>
>> Have I missed any?
>
> NUMA series: Dirk Pitt, Kurt Austin
>
Are we still taking about WEB Griffin? The NUMA series is Clive Cussler.
Gml...@scvnet.com
"Jay Scovill" <jsco...@accubid.com> wrote in message
news:Xns940CA6354D64Dj...@142.77.1.194...
The thread is a bit old, but I think that we were speaking of characters who
sufficiently well-off not to need day jobs.